#like it’s either they make her into a complex character

[cringefailvox]

underrated hazbin hotel fic recs

hi! for the purposes of this list, my understanding of "underrated" is likely arbitrary, but i'm roughly judging by the metric of fics that either have under 100 kudos, or have an egregiously skewed kudos to comment ratio (i.e. 10 comments to 250 kudos, etc, bc wtf?) enjoy and please show these fics some love!!

blue light dreams by @morningsofgold - velvette-centric polyvees with a masterfully crafted atmosphere and fantastic character voices; spins such a rich and complex web of dynamics between all three of them that is just perfect. their other velvette-centric oneshot is delightful as well!

The Greedy Lack More by @hua-liansimp - radiostatic college au with eldritch horror alastor and a wonderfully toxic situationship where vox blackmails alastor into being his friend in exchange for vox's silence, but by no means is alastor going to make it easy for him

Paved With Good Intentions by ItsClydeBitches - platonic charlie & alastor character study where alastor learns that razzle & dazzle can sense malicious intentions towards charlie, and would've killed him when he first arrived if he'd actually wanted to hurt her. he has a mild crisis about it. their other genfic, A Wacky Wager, is also hilarious - husk and alastor make petty deals to entertain themselves, charlie disapproves

pivot by fiveandnocents - staticmoth smut with background polyvees where vox is the hinge, val is extremely jealous, and they are all really bad at this polyamory thing. really good inner narration from vox and val’s character voice is spot-on

Because I Love You by tellyvision - another platonic radiobelle fic, with genuinely gorgeous prose and very well-crafted character studies for both charlie and alastor’s worldviews. all of their other fics, which are mostly gen ensemble, i highly recommend as well

Bag of Bones by Candydollcurly - angel runs into vox at one of val’s shitty house parties and predictably, they hate each other. really snappy & clever dialogue, with one of my favorite angel characterizations ever. the rest of their fics are similarly fantastic, and a couple especially underrated ones are Eyes Up There (platonic valvel) and What You Came Here to Do (more deliciously toxic voxvalangel dynamics)

*explodes pancakes with mind* by nambi - extremely charming genfic with dashes of angsty introspection, set to a backdrop of alastor pulling increasingly irritating pranks on lucifer at breakfast until lucifer finally decides to retaliate

happy birthday mr voxtek president by @mwestbelle - dubiously consensual voxvalangel threesome, with a lot of vox and val being terrible to each other, to angel, and frankly to every unfortunate person who has ever entered their hundred mile vicinity. my other fav by them is love me cancerously (even more voxval nastiness)

The Good Old Days by @bloopdydooooo - really funny fic about vox and lucifer getting drunk at an overlord party and competing over who can get alastor to dance with them first. spoilers: they both fail miserably, and the only person who gets a radio demon dance that night is rosie :]

she who lies in his shadow by @bloodsbane - radiobelle pwp with touch/sex averse alastor, really fantastic stuff and honestly some of the only charlie/alastor porn i’ve actually enjoyed in terms of quality characterization AND gorgeous writing

kiss and swallow series by @issushaim - GENUINELY a travesty that this series doesn’t get more attention. intense, vivid, and delicious staticdust porn + character studies with exceptional dialogue and prose, and in general some of my favorite angel characterization of all time. really really fantastic stuff, i can’t recommend it enough

heard and heeded by @tarmairons - husk character study where he comes to alastor to barter for angel’s soul, but might have bitten off more than he can chew. dark, achingly visceral prose, still gives me a lingering ache in my chest every time i read it. ugh so good

what a waste of a lovely night by @valscigarette - vox takes angel on a dry run date in an attempt to figure out how to rekindle the magic with val. very fun and engaging dialogue, vox being a piece of shit as per usual while angel suffers along for the ride, and delightfully toxic4toxic staticmoth

The Radio Demon is Back in Town by @take-the-unknow-road-now - very cute and funny radiostatic where after the overlord meeting, alastor baits vox into having a drink with him. banter, dancing, food fights, and a rekindling of a kismesissitude for the ages ensues. filled to the brim with hysterical lines such as “one day i'll pop you open like a crab and feast on your insides” and “may you crash sideways into a vat of nuclear waste”

Red Skies and Valentino by alternatedoom - i really think this one isn’t as well known only because the author dropped all 25 chapters in one day and the summary tells you functionally nothing, but guys. it’s so fucking good. 86k of voxval being monsters in love, with hefty doses of angel & velvette, bg polyvees, and smatterings of radiosilence, telling the entire history of vox and val’s partnership in excruciating, lurid, and violent detail. i was mesmerized all the way through. you have to give it a shot if you’re a staticmoth fan because it is a masterpiece

SOS by @arahusk - a surreal, dark, and macabre husk/lilith/alastor fic where husk follows alastor’s distress signal to his home and gets roped against his will into whatever fucked up game lilith is playing with alastor. the radiohusk here is delightfully complicated and possessive from both ends, and lilith is a captivating figure. really excellent writing. i’m also a big fan of literally every other fic they’ve ever written

Between the Wings by nettle (stinging_nettle) - vaggie/lute dubiously consensual hatesex with homophobic overtones, my beloved. she’s written some delicious valangel and staticmoth too

all of his questions, such a mournful sound by @valleyghosts - angel character study and ensemble fic with a sprinkling of huskerdust. very sweet and charming, practically everybody gets a bonding moment and the characterization is airtight

Harlem Sunrise by Caelanmiriel - absolutely CRIMINAL that this fic only has six non-reply comments. this is one of The radiostatic fics for me, a 21k oneshot of vox fixing alastor up after the finale despite alastor’s best attempts to die out of spite, complete with vox’s unhinged rambling narration, alastor being utterly incapable of telling anyone the truth, least of all himself, and the two of them trying their hardest to hate each other and failing miserably. spectacular. go read it immediately

living in sin is the new thing series by @superkitten-poison - fantastic polyvees series, terrible people in love with perfect character voices and very funny dialogue

[psicheanima]

What do you think about the greater complexities of denji and power’s relationship? some fans argue the romantic undertones kind of throw the common “they’re siblings” understanding out the window and claim that power had feelings for denji, even if denji didn’t. I think these are fair assessments to make but I often see other fans react very poorly because it ruins the “platonic soulmates” thing people have to come to love about them. Regardless, makima is the one who delegated power to little sister status when we all know csm relationships are more complicated than that AND makima has a surface level understanding of human relationships in general. So what are your thoughts?

When you have two feral children like Denji and Power, grown without any form of love whatsoever— friendship, familial or romantic, its undeniable that they will thus explore all these types of love in order to settle on the one that both fits them. They don’t know what boundaries are. They have to go through all these things because they are children who were not taught.

This is why romantic undertones don’t exist for Aki’s relationship with either of them. He is a well adjusted adult who understands that he sees Denji and Power as part of his familial unit. They don’t have this context for society, so they’re everywhere, until they begin to understand their relationship as “platonic” while Denji takes care of Power during her PTSD.

These romantic undertones exist due to our perceptions of romance, but for the characters, it’s different. Power never sees Denji romantically. Ever. She is a devil drawn to warm blood, touch starved, and thus wants to constantly be attached to his body. She is delusionally self confident and crosses people’s comfort zones in what can be perceived as romantic affection, but to her, it is just affection.

Denji initially sees Power as a romantic interest because that’s all women are. They will save him from his miserable loneliness by providing him true, pure ascension. But Power is disgusting, and he isn’t actually sexually attracted to her. He realizes women are flawed beings, that he wants to take care of her, that he loves her in a way he didn’t know existed because he has never been cared for, much less in a familial way. So they are closer than normal siblings would be with one another. The love is big and overwhelming, they don’t know where to put it and both have pre-conceived notions for what it means to love (Denji’s is gendered, hers is violent.)

Nonetheless, Makima was correct in her assessment that Power is a little sister figure to Denji— the thing is, he only got about a few weeks of existing in this dynamic with the darkness devil thing. They could have grown even more healthy, stable and classically “siblings” if given time. What makes this assessment fun is that not even Denji knew he could see women in this way. Makima did not manipulate him to not form a romantic attachment to Power, she knew in advance. It just shows how utterly in control of his emotional life she is. Compare that to Reze, who she simply removes from the table.

They are siblings, they are platonic soulmates, and they do have romantic undertones, in the way we view “romance”, but it’s not that way to them. they are not lovers, or romantic. not even for a singular moment in time. That all exists at once

[scandalaciousintentions]

Absolutely agree with the above, but I'd go a step further. (And I liked the movie, but my preference is the musical and it is what I will refer to now and forever.)

That said.

Potentially unpopular opinion and incendiary sentence approaching.

I don't actually think Act 1 Fiyero would have gone with her.

At this point, Glinda and Fiyero are still pretty aligned. In the musical, he's saved the Lion cub because he is the only person in that room her magic has not completely incapacitated and this is his girlfriend's friend in distress. Fiyero is a bit of an ass, but he's never cruel. (Further essay on "Perhaps the driver saw green and thought it meant "Go" to follow.) This person is dear to someone dear to him, she needs help, he can give it, so he will. So far, so surface level complexity, so Act 1 Fiyero.

I have always imagined that interval to cross years. And during that time, everybody has grown up. Everybody has seen things they wish they hadn't. Glinda's response to it has been to hide it under a winning smile and Fiyero has grown resentful; ultimately, a sympathiser to Elphaba's resistance.

Which, to me, makes him one of the most interesting and complex characters in the show. Something happens to Fiyero and I think it starts with Elphaba and the Lion cub, but that is not the whole story. I'm not sure we'll ever fully know it - let's see what happens in Part 2. I don't think I even need to know it. In the book, it would be the violent death of the Bear cub and I have no desire to see anything of the sort play out on screen.

And, let's not forget, he's the crown prince of the Winkus. (And both the movie and the musical tell us he's featured in the society pages of the media, which to be fair, might not make him Elphaba's companion of choice in the circumstances.) But I mention this because he does have responsibilities and he does have something to lose. In order to prioritise Elphaba and her cause over the role he has been raised for since birth, he has to see what the alternative is and that alternative has to completely appal him.

Look, tl;dr, Act 2 Fiyero is a completely different beast to his Act 1 counterpart. He's an analytical thinker, absolutely a politician, a double agent before I think he even realises it for himself, a captain sent out to capture the most dangerous fugitive in the country and for how long can a person be fed that narrative before they start to believe it? For the first time, he's forced into a narrative he doesn't control.

But he's not Elphaba. He's never been restricted like this before. Act 1 Fiyero has taken control of his narrative and while he learns it is limiting him when he rescues the Lion cub with her, there is no indication that he's going to act on it outside of a bunch of flowers at the train station, which does not a Defying Gravity duet make.

I think all the signs point to Elphaba flying off into the sunset alone either way. Because Fiyero is complex and he needs to be forced into that cage before he can even see it has bars.

Fiyerabas love to get on Twitter and tumblr and say stuff like “well fiyero would’ve went with Elphaba in a heartbeat” and act as if that’s a groundbreaking statement. We know what happens in act 2. We know he leaves everything behind for her. The reason why Glinda can’t do that is because she’s an actual nuanced character that has depth to her. She has something to lose. We see how she was brought up in the world. We know that she is a coward. Why WOULDN’T fiyero go with Elphaba? Nothing about his character is complex enough for that to be an option.

Fiyero’s whole character is built on a single characteristic (pretending not to care when he actually does) that is so underdeveloped it’s actually laughable. Why does he pretend not to care? There is not a single thing about him that actually tells us why he acts like that. It just comes out as him being an annoying jerk, even in the movie. His whole character arc is pretending not to care and then caring because of Elphaba. OF COURSE he’d go with her. That’s what his whole personality is based on.

Not to mention the fact that even with him being Elphaba’s ride or die, he’s still boring and his decision to be with her is incredibly unmoving. No one would expect anything else. And even with them ending up together, Elphaba still longs to be with Glinda. She still longs to tell her she’s alive. Fiyero is a boring annoying consolation prize that is a flat and undeveloped “what if” twist on Glinda if she wasn’t as much of a coward as she is. Idgaf

[homestuckreplay]

Liberty. Reason. Justice. Civility. Edification. Perfection.

(page 1116-1128)

As it turns out, there’s no such thing as a DEAPPEARIFIER. Such a machine is actually called a SENDIFICATOR, and funding for this technology drastically improves the postal service’s ability to carry out their work, as gloriously demonstrated by PM. This machine is presumably why things keep appearing, as well as disappearing, around Jade’s house (p.770).

I shed a real tear when PM successfully delivered the package – it’s only been a few hundred pages since her first mail spiel (p.894-6), but AR’s erratic shooting and the clear danger of the current situation mean this still feels like an earned victory. There is a song called ‘The Courier’ by Richard Shindell that I’ve been obsessed with for years and this is PM’s theme song to me. I’m actually so taken with this broader theme of mail and with this drive to carry information and items between people even in a world that’s not set up for it, that I want to explore other media that has this theme, and maybe even base my next D&D character around this.

Thinking about AR’s characterization, they’re mad at themself for shooting incorrectly, bonking themself on the head for it (p.1119) meaning they are not above their own laws. This doesn’t make them less dangerous, but it makes their moral code more consistent. The same is true with their attraction to PM – AR has this urge towards forbidden romance with the opposing side, but isn’t going to make a legal exception even for this carapaced hottie. AR is also extremely stubborn and doggedly convinced of things that are factually untrue – for example, they ‘don’t give a shit about’ their weapon being magazine-fed and not clip-fed (p.1101), they think of themself as a ‘crack shot’ despite not landing a single bullet (p.1119), and they think Serenity is a ‘little blinking bee’ (p.1122).

I think black and white thinking, strict ideals and no mercy for those who disrupt them, have to be more traits programmed into all chess pieces (for all its intellectual complexity, chess does not have much nuance to its lore). So this next part might be a reach and might be confirmation bias, but I wonder if these folks have similarities to the kids they command. WV was socially inept at first, prone to flights of fancy, and not great at prioritizing, which are also some of John’s flaws. PM is focused on her delivery tasks to the point of putting herself in danger, and Jade is behaving similarly as she harpoons herself across the ruins and evades Bec’s protection to deliver the time bait as per Skaia’s will. AR’s stubbornness and refusal to question their own biased perspective could fit with either Dave or Rose, but their immediate resorting to violence is a better fit for Dave – the kid who was so mad about being named ‘insufferable prick’ that he destroyed the input box (p.310).

Pretty fucked up that WV just sacrifices one of his pawns. One of his beloved citizens, martyred for the cause. Pour one out for- shit nevermind wrong phrase.

One complaint: there is no possible way WV and PM have read Sweet Bro & Hella Jeff. Even if they could access it from their command terminals – and I do NOT believe Skaia has programmed that functionality – they do not exist in the right cultural moment to appreciate the humor. When the narrative text references SBAHJ during the kids’ sections (for example, p.915) it works for me, because it’s an actual thought they might be having. It doesn’t work for me here on pages 1123-4, because the narrator’s inserting it where it wouldn’t naturally fit, using SBAHJ to distract me from the much better comic I’m currently reading.

UNLESS. I have been interpreting the scribbly pages like 1118 and 1124 (above) as Jade’s understanding of events upon waking, the way a dream that seems perfectly crisp and clear while asleep becomes vague and blurry after waking up. Again likely a reach, but I could buy that the SBAHJ is Jade editorializing on her own visions as she creates this note and draws the map for WV and PM to follow. That feels neater to me, at least.

> AR: Shoot at bass guitar to repair elevator.

[calamitoustide]

also i’m still on this why is every time “lily slander” is brought up it’s just because someone made her into a “not so good person”… that is not slander that is simply a complex character

[makotonaegiunderstander]

something I’ve been thinking abt is how many people think Makoto is immune to despair. I don’t think he is. I think becoming the ultimate Hope was BECAUSE he felt despair. He wouldn’t have fully reached that point without Junko. Makoto becoming such a beacon was his last attempt to avoid completely falling and it wasn’t because he didn’t feel despair, it was because he was too damn stubborn to allow everything to go to waste and he refused to sacrifice his beliefs for someone else’s. His inner monologue tells me he DID experience the same new low the other suvivors did in the final trial, but at the point where he had the choice to give up and die, he looked at the others and he looked at Junko and he couldn’t allow it to happen, not out of self preservation, but because the idea that Junko would have control over their lives made him FURIOUS. and that utter refusal to die kicked in, wether luck or otherwise, and he made the concious effort for one last push while something in him was breaking. He had to be broken in order for the Ultimate Hope to come through so aggressively, bc it could only exist in the face of the Ultimate Despair. He snapped the same way she did, but in the other direction. In what could have been his final moments he chose to embody everything Junko wasn’t, and every single optimistic and luck fueled ideal in him suddenly charged forward and pushed him. It was a combination of the final straw and a choice. Makoto isn’t immune to feeling despair, he’s just too stubborn to fall into it of his own volition. I think that’s why I like that scene in DR3 so much. People were SO SHOCKED Makoto actually fell for the tape, that he actually became despair for a moment. I saw people getting mad or disappointed, saying it was pathetic and Makoto seemed to fall from some sort of pedestal for them. Honestly part of me wonders if that sort of mentality, which clearly people had in universe, affected Makoto a bit. Like he started to see himself as less of a person, subconsciously. Prompting him to take more risks, less self preservation, act way more bold. It seems he has to be reminded a lot not to put himself in danger by his friends, to not do something too reckless. All over the place I would see in regards to that scene either this frivolous ‘oh this was just angst drama with no meaning behind it’ or ‘he can do better than that. he’s so weak’ or ‘come on, there’s no way he’d fall into despair, he’s the Ultimate Hope!’ This kind of mentality, which was kind of ironic considering Ryota was there the entire time saying the same thing and treating Makoto the same way. Like Makoto was superhuman. Like Makoto didn’t feel despair the same way ‘normal people’ did. In a way that was also how Munakata saw Makoto. Makoto stopped being a PERSON to the world when he became Ultimate Hope, he became a concept, a belief system, much the same way Junko ascended beyond herself. But the difference is that treating Makoto that way is the opposite of the reason Makoto became such a representative for hope. He wasn’t doing something no one else could. He was doing something everyone had the chance to, he just… was a little more optimistic, a little more stubborn, a little more ‘gung-ho’ about things. He just took the lead where no one else did, where no one else knew they even COULD in the face of Junko’s unstoppable force. She had overcome the biggest threats and obstacles in the world, what could one person do? And the answer Makoto found was, anything. Everything. It doesn’t all rest on Makoto, he’s just the one that was inspired to try to do what seemed like the impossible. But as evidenced by the change in his friends after that trial, it’s clearly not something only Makoto is capable of. The others pulled out of despair thanks to Makoto, but it was their choice to do so.

“But… this world is so huge, and we’re so small. What can we do…? No, we can probably do anything. Yeah! We can do anything!”

[stellaclaw]

i can see your perspective, and to some extent i do agree. some of my favorite character in other fandoms are villains (something i have actually been attacked over lol).

when i say the books lack complexity, i dont mean the building blocks arent there. however, it needs to be heavily contextualized in that the writers often discard what they have- bonefall found an excellent basis the writers had set, but in crowfeathers trial, its often been noted that breezepelts edges are sanded down to make him more agreeable, and thus give an “easier” version to forgive- indeed, what we see of him in dovewings silence is very inconsistent from crowfeathers trial, and his arc is wrapped up rather abruptly and not even from his pov, when it really, truly should have been to give it a satisfying ending. furthermore, when crowfeather blames nightcloud for breezepelt hating him, we are to some extent supposed to accept that nightcloud was a problem. in the guide books shes described as jealous and bitter and coddling, and even on the official website she is assigned adjectives, and thus we are to assume her defending breezepaw from his father is bad and she had some hand in how he turned out.

the reason warriors is loved is because the pieces are there. but the writers continually neglect them, and in the end water down their own writing. breezepelt is one of the very few cases i mentioned where the set up is good enough that it can still shine while the landing was fumbled.

its why i have such trouble giving such leniency to appledusk. there is a trend in the books of such things, and so it is natural to become skeptical of the writers intentions, which im sure is something you can understand.

i can fully accept people wanting to see complexity in appledusk, and hes probably a character i would like in a “messy guy” sort of way, but there is a problem in parts of the fandom where people defend his cheating (usually by portraying mapleshade as a “buff scary woman” and depicting him as small and frail, and positioning reedshine, who he also deceived, as a therapist to him). maybe i can like him some day (i am number 1 frecklewish fan yes she did those bad things and it just adds flavor to her), but ive personally dealt with that sort of… gestures vaguely.

also dw about rambling lol i had no idea where i was going either. also didnt mean to assume, i spent a lot of time in the wcrp forums so my brain is just kind of attuned to read into things. that being said i responded calmly because i do not like to assume actual malice, doing so just makes a meaner fandom space and also prevents interesting discussions like this.

anyway if people are allowed to make excuses for bramblestar and fucking appledusk, I should also get to say that nightcloud did nothing wrong

[concrete-3ater]

if I had a nickel for every time I was in a fandom and a child character had a breakdown and did something that accidentally hurt another character, and then the fandom all turned on the character and vilified them because they [the fandom] can’t understand that sometimes 14 year olds make mistakes when they’re going through something traumatic, I would have 2 nickels

not a lot but it really is weird it happened twice

[cherry-treelane]

I find it so ironically funny when hardcore Debbie defenders use the defense that she was just a victimised teenage girl (agreed) and then proceed to slander Fiona and express their hatred for her character and lack of sympathy

as if being an adult magically absolves an individual of the horrifying trauma that precedes them and screws up their mentality and actions

funnily enough these people get mad at others for "expecting Debbie to be an innocent angel and hating on her for acting out as a result of trauma" (also agreed, debbie does deserve more sympathy, she can't be expected to grow up to be a perfect saint when she's been through so much) yet seem to hold Fiona to the same unattainable standards and put her on a pedestal as if she wasnt a child that was forced to intensely grow up while never actually being raised

like lets put this into perspective and remember that fiona grew up surrounded by corrupt morals and insanely screwed up behaviour yet still emerged as messed up, yes, but surprisingly good considering the situation she was in??? she had to navigate basic things such as morals and being a good, responsible person on her own. imagine how difficult it must be to lead a bunch of kids, including yourself, with no previous role model or good example of your own to follow. most of the time, she always tried to do what she thought was best and would have the most desirable outcome

[my-current-obsession]

I ask this as a Clerith fan myself - why are so many people up in arms about Tifa "lying" in her GS date? I'm not even sure what people are referring to when they say that. If it's when she denied talking to Aerith about Zack... Aerith literally lied about the EXACT same thing to Cloud and no one calls her out about it.

Obviously the context of Cloud bringing up the issue in the first place is quite different with both girls - with Aerith he's wanting to know where they stand and if he can pursue her or if he should give up. While with Tifa he's still focused on Aerith instead of the girl he's with, which makes this date and his extreme (frankly OOC) actions come across as a rebound because he feels like he has no chance with the girl he's really interested in. But that said, I interpret the lie itself as the same from both girls - they know Cloud's memory is unreliable and digging too much into the topic of Zack might make him MORE unstable, so they dodge the issue. Also maybe a secondary reason of lying to keep the mood light/romantic, instead of bogging it down with something heavy.

If it's in response to what she says after Cloud wonders about Aerith still having feelings for Zack... that's up to interpretation, I guess. PERSONALLY, I would take her responding "It's more complicated than that" as dodging the question at worst or even a soft, implied disagreement with Cloud at best. It would be incredibly easy and simple to just say, "Yes, she still likes him." That's NOT what Tifa says, even though to an extent it might be true (Aerith makes it obvious that she's fallen for Cloud by the end of the game, but she MIGHT still love Zack too. You can love more than one person at a time. It's just unclear if that's the case for her or not).

We know from the scene on the ship heading towards Costa del Sol that Tifa and Aerith wanted to talk about love and boys, but it was postponed. But it's also clear they're spending a LOT of time together trying to hash out what's going on with Cloud and generally opening up to each other as friends off-screen, so I think it's safe to say they DID have this conversation eventually. I believe by the chapter 12 date, both girls are fully aware that they EACH like Cloud romantically, but for the most part they care enough about each other as friends to put aside rivalry/jealousy.

Tifa's response of "It's more complicated than that" just feels like the honest truth to me. Does Aerith still have feelings for Zack? Yeah, maybe. But she also undeniably has feelings for Cloud. And Tifa, on a date with the man she ALSO loves, doesn't want to lie but also can't bring herself to say that whole truth (also it's not really her truth to say? Confessing for someone else is messed up in its own right NGL) when doing so would almost certainly kill her own chances with Cloud.

I honestly feel sorry for her in her date. I read the situation as her trying to be as honest as she can without quite literally triggering Cloud or spilling Aerith's secrets, while Cloud, AT BEST is acting out a role with her and being the suave hero who he thinks she wants (which is arguably true, but let's not get into whether Tifa wants the "real" Cloud here) instead of his true awkward self (thus no actual progress in their relationship is made, since everything was just an act on his part). And AT WORST is outright using her as a rebound.

Seriously, what are you all mad at HER for?

[themysteriouswaylon]

I really don’t agree with this post TBH. smithers is My special interest so I have a lot to say, thus putting the rest of this under a “read more” label.

because it’s so long, I also put My main points in bold, just in case you aren’t able to/don't want to read everything.

(also, quick disclaimer: reading over this, I’m not sure if I’m coming off as belligerent? a lot of this is autistic infodumping, so I wrote it with getting My point across > social niceties, but I’m not certain on how that has Me coming across. whoops)

“like, they had burns pestering smithers for help early in the episode to the point it was a catalyst for the plot, and yet, when smithers is INCARCERATED burns doesn't notice until he's specifically told?”

perhaps this is a nitpick, but mr. burns wasn’t exactly “pestering” smithers for help; most of what smithers did for him in the opening was off of a checklist and done while mr. burns was either absent (E.G. evicting the children’s hospital, taking out the trash) or seemingly oblivious to her presence (dropping the ducks).

the only point in the episode where I would say burns does anything close to “pestering” smithers for help is when he coughs up his adam’s apple. even the wine-tasting earlier on doesn’t make burns come off as needy or hyperdependent.

now, I will give credit where it’s due and say that how much burns relies on smithers in general—with the latter functioning as his caregiver—would make it strange for him to have not noticed her absence.

“portrait of a lackey on fire” does show burns’ ability to hyperfocus for prolonged periods of time, at the expense of recognizing others’ absence, but since this post’s main argument is that the modern burns/smithers dynamic is broken, I recognize that this is a weak defense for this decision, especially since burns wasn’t shown to be preoccupied with anything in this case.

“without smithers, burns becomes just an evil old rich man. without burns, smithers kind of just exists??? they are both SO important for contextualizing each other and creating respective depth.”

this is gonna sound mean, but this paragraph is a GROSS disservice to both burns and smithers as characters. I cannot understate this enough.

they both have so much going for them outside of each other. sure, I can understand preferring them together (like most people, I absolutely love them as a duo), but to say that they’ve only ever been given development and character in relation to each other is so incongruent with how they’re actually written.

let’s start with mr. burns. for organizational purposes, I’m going to restrict Myself to pointing out just a handful of bullet-pointed complexities of his:

the modern timeline (as early as S24’s “dark knight court,” IIRC) shows that he was abused and neglected as a child; his pervasive need for attention and power comes not just from the evil of being a white male billionaire, but also from the fact that he was ignored and defenseless throughout his formative years. some of his most extreme interpersonal tendencies result from him trying to avoid being put in such a traumatizing position ever again. the fact that his trauma still impacts him today isn’t just speculation, but it’s a major plot point in both “monty burns’ fleeing circus” and “bobby, it’s cold outside.”

mr. burns’ relationship with others as a whole is complicated, not just his dynamic with smithers. the aforementioned need for validation and control plays a strong role in how he relates to others, the former more so in modern seasons and the latter in classic seasons. in the classic seasons, his relationships with marge (as his crush in “marge gets a job”), bart (as his son in “burns’ heir”), and jacqueline (marge’s mom; as his bride in “lady bouvier’s lover”) all hinge on how much control he has over them: he’d do anything for marge…until he finds out she’s not sexually available to him; he welcomes bart with open arms…until he doesn’t feel comfortable choosing him over homer; he…was never good to jacqueline. I’ve heard somebody suggest that he wanted her only to take her from abe, which I feel is absolutely correct, especially considering that S27’s “puffless” has him seducing her and then outright admitting he only did it to spite grampa. (note: I’m not trying to excuse his behavior as “just trauma.” he’s obviously a misogynist and an abuser, unrelated to his childhood) meanwhile, post-classic seasons emphasize his need for approval, which lends itself to a lonelier characterization of burns: “monty can’t buy me love,” “monty burns’ fleeing circus,” “undercover burns,” and “burger kings” are all ultimately episodes about him chasing after the public’s affection, even at the expense of his own comfort. he’s also been portrayed as rather prone to idealization, taking a selfless yet naive perspective on his relationships with gloria (S13’s “a hunka hunka burns in love”), jay G (S28’s “the great phatsby”), homer and friends (S32’s “undercover burns”), and persephone (S35’s “thirst trap”).

lastly (for what I’m saying here), burns deals with a persistent sense of emptiness. although I’d argue this has always made sense for his character (especially with episodes like “rosebud” in mind), this is shown mostly in post-classic episodes, through his various instances of thrill-seeking (“homer vs. dignity,” “dark knight court,” “opposites a-frack”), people-pleasing (“monty can’t buy me love,” “undercover burns,” “burger kings”), suicide attempts (“the fool monty,” “burger kings”), and depression (“monty burns’ fleeing circus,” “bobby, it’s cold outside”).

now, it’s obvious that the trajectory of his character development has changed over time, but at no meaningful point in the series has he truly just been “evil” and nothing else, including in episodes where he’s largely distanced from smithers as a character.

speaking of smithers:

I’d say that love is at the core of smithers’ character, both her ability/willingness to love unconditionally and her long-unmet need to be loved back. this is—of course—shown mostly with mr. burns, but this has also been shown as just a general fact of smithers’ life. she’s consistently looking for an actual partner, even before the most recent seasons: she dated john in S7’s “homer’s phobia,” is shown with a man in a crowd mostly consisting of established couples in S13’s “the bart wants what it wants,” has an off-screen commitment ceremony in S19’s “sex, pies, and idiot scrapes,” tries to get with abe in S24’s “gorgeous grampa,” dates julio in S27’s “the burns cage,” and—most recently—dates michael in S33’s “portrait of a lackey on fire.” although the earlier cases are simply jokes about smithers liking men, the more recent examples, particularly “lackey on fire,”highlight the actual feelings she has regarding romance, not just who these feelings are directed towards: she’s lonely and yearns for unconditional love, someone who’s kind and attentive. this lack of affection is a major source of discontentment in her life, thus her seemingly frequent relationships despite her perpetual singlehood.

smithers is also shown to have low—or at least fragile—self-esteem. although she’s an incredibly resilient person, rejection can bring this more insecure side of her out. for instance, when she’s rejected from a gay club in “flaming moe” for her appearance, she tells moe that “no one wants an executive assistant who only works out six hours a day.” this tendency to generalize rejection (“no one wants,” as opposed to “they don’t want”) is also shown in “lackey on fire,” when she says “if only i’d been born into a litter of puppies, then maybe someone would love me.”

in general, she’s much more emotionally troubled and unstable than her outward temperament would suggest. there are many points in which she’s rather passionate/intense, even in the absence of burns, such as in “lisa vs. malibu stacy” and “american history X-cellent.” like burns, she feels empty, despite her ability to hold herself together most of the time. this can be inferred from her general sense of loneliness, but lines like “i’ve done it, i’m happy” (“the burns cage”) and “for the first time in my life, i feel free” (“bottle episode”) make it clear that she generally lives in a state of dysphoria, that the happiness she experiences is so fleeting that it hardly even matters at all.

although smithers hasn’t gotten as much development as mr. burns has (which I assume is related to the fact that they were grossly limited by censorship early on: “homer’s phobia” was rejected for glorifying homosexuality until new management came along), I really do feel that—with all this in mind—it’s a disservice to say that smithers has no character outside of her relationship with burns.

“along with that, i think smithers' personality has become way too reliant upon his gayness. in the name of "representation," they've brought it into the forefront of his characterization and, in doing so, dropped most of the shit that actually made him unique in the first place.”

this throws Me off a bit, NGL. I’m not saying you’re homophobic—since that’s a bold accusation and, considering tumblr’s userbase, I’d be more surprised than anything if you weren’t LGBT yourself—but how does smithers simply dating men erase her personality?

it’d be one thing if she was totally without agency in episodes like “the burns cage” and “lackey on fire,” but she isn’t. it’d be one thing if none of her defining features remained in these episodes, but they did.

let’s talk about “lackey,” since that’s My favorite of the two. smithers is clearly shown to have multifaceted thoughts, feelings, and beliefs throughout that episode.

act three is a good example of this: when she finds out michael runs a sweatshop, she initially refuses to condemn this as evil. this aligns with her preexisting tendency to idealize the subjects of her affection (E.G. burns), to the point of putting her morals aside and letting their perceived greatness overshadow their obvious cruelty.

this shines through further as she repeatedly tries to find a reasonable explanation for these unconscionable business practices, first going to mr. burns and then to michael himself. another detail worth noting is that she continues to wear the bowtie michael gave her up until they finally break up, further signaling to her unyielding faith in him.

when confronted, michael tells her to ignore it and “be adored.” smithers almost falls for this, as it plays right into her previously (and now currently) unmet emotional needs. the only thing that causes her to reconsider is seeing him abuse their puppy.

although smithers has previously stood alongside mr. burns as he has committed many acts of abuse—including animal abuse—it’s rather obvious that she isn’t comfortable with it. for example, she tries to discourage mr. burns from killing the puppies in “two dozen and one greyhounds,” and the same episode has a deleted scene in which burns notices her glaring at him for his decision to do so.

I wouldn’t say that this scene erases smithers’ complicated morals, but instead just places them in a different context: she hasn’t been emotionally dependent on michael for the past 20 years of her life, she’s not dependent on michael for a paycheck, michael doesn’t depend on her to survive; she can easily leave him. burns, not so much.

as for “bottle episode,” I see it as a particularly poor example of smithers being reduced to her orientation. there’s absolutely no reference to smithers being gay this episode; no attraction to men, no disinterest in women, no femininity. she’s literally just getting involved in a scheme, totally unrelated to who she does and doesn’t want to fuck.

“of course the writers can't see why he would like mr. burns anymore! they just see him as a nondescript spineless gay guy!”

once again, I strongly disagree with the idea that smithers is in any way “nondescript” nowadays. as for her being “spineless,” it’s true that we haven’t gotten any more “who shot mr. burns?”-esque condemnations of burns in recent seasons, but that’s in major part due to his villain decay, not smithers lacking any willingness to diverge from her expected submissiveness.

I feel the aforementioned ending of “lackey on fire” disproves the idea that smithers is nothing but a doormat nowadays. unlike modern burns, michael showed her a new level of cruelty that she didn’t expect from him, thus something to challenge. meanwhile, mr. burns has long passed the peak of his villainy, thus smithers is mostly dealing with more of the same.

“and yet he's also not allowed to be gay FOR mr. burns.”

smithers is still attracted to mr. burns, she’s just more independent nowadays:

“and mr. burns is a pathetic old man, but he's not allowed to need smithers because he has to be one dimensionally evil and capable of performing functional independence.”

there are too many modern jokes about burns needing smithers for bADLs (basic activities of daily living) for Me to count, but it’s certainly still there. it’s just that it’d damage the plot to randomly throw burns into purely smithers-centric episodes or vice versa, thus why we don’t see it as much in spotlight episodes than we do in minor appearances.

“they got the "smithers likes mr. burns" thing down and they don't seem to know anything else about them and i'm just staring at them like there is no world where mr. burns marries a random shady woman who is blatantly using him for his money and smithers is just like Yeah she's cool because she likes Mr. Burns too! No. He would want to kill her and wear her skin”

I largely didn’t like “thirst trap,” but smithers’ acceptance of persephone was actually the highlight of the episode IMO; it’s character development.

smithers doesn’t NEED to constantly be obsessed with mr. burns. she doesn’t need to walk around thinking “if mr. burns marries someone else, i’ll either kill them or myself.” they aren’t trying to erase smithers’ personality, they’re trying to make her happier.

her realization that burns—her employer that she is not in a mutual, monogamous relationship with—is not “hers” is a great way of showing that she’s no longer doomed to suffer through however-many-more decades of pining and unrequited love; mr. burns can find someone he’s genuinely into, and she can find someone who’s genuinely into her.

it’s subtle, but I’m fine with them not spelling it out for the viewer; they can just develop smithers throughout her appearances, without it always needing to be a spotlight episode. I don’t need her to turn to the camera and say “I AM FINE WITH THIS BECAUSE I HAVE GROWN AS A PERSON” for Me to understand what’s going on.

(late addition: I realize I totally forgot to address the “using him for his money” part of the argument. I feel this is a matter of “not overly involving smithers in burns-centric plots,” as I mentioned in regards to mr. burns’ independence.

it’s not difficult for Me to suspend My disbelief here, since smithers got so little screentime and has sometimes been shown to be passive to the point of letting burns get himself in bad situations (E.G. “the old man and the lisa,” “opposites a-frack,” the comic “a brand new burns”), but I can understand that part of the argument, since she’s also been shown to warn mr. burns about threats on other occasions (E.G. “the musk who fell to earth”))

“they don't just like each other, they NEED each other, and that fact is supposed to create an obstacle that defines them intrinsically.”

I disagree with all of the points made here.

firstly, burns and smithers’ relationship has always been more complicated than just “they like each other.” it’s a love-hate relationship on both ends: mr. burns has a soft spot for smithers, but his “soft side” is still so callous that he continues to dehumanize her as simply a source of labor; smithers loves burns, but she also has a repressed resentment for him, shown as recently as “frinkcoin” in 2020 and simpsons illustrated’s “police chief wiggum’s case no. 209” in 1992.

secondly, burns needs smithers, as shown by the failure of his attempts to replace her in “them, robot” and “the burns cage,” but smithers doesn’t need burns. that’s part of what her development is saying, IMO.

she’s spent most of her life thinking she needs burns, but she doesn’t. he berates her, he overworks her, he underpays her, he puts her in danger, he physically abuses her, he sometimes outright scares her (“three eyes on every fish,” “blood feud,” “bottle episode”), but she pushes down all of the anger that it evokes in her and tells herself that he doesn’t really mean it and that she deserves what he does mean.

at this point, the simpsons is trying to give its cast happy endings: moe is getting married, ned has gotten to process the deaths of his wives, carl has a girlfriend and is generally learning more about himself as a person, sideshow bob has given up on killing bart and focuses on his own relationships, CBG and willie are already married, so on and so forth.

smithers growing apart from mr. burns is just another part of that. just like bob with bart, she realizes that her obsession with him is just doing more harm than good, thus has begun to focus more on her own needs and the people around her.

now, am I saying that I believe smithers is ever going to completely separate from mr. burns? no. smithers is a burns-centric character, so her relationship with him is what connects her to the main family. even “bottle episode” only set her and marge up through that smithers-burns-homer connection.

unless they were to branch out and suddenly make her “marge’s friend” rather than “homer’s boss’s assistant,” (which I don’t see happening and honestly wouldn’t want) staying with mr. burns is the only way she can stay in the series.

plus, although there have been some status quo changes, none of them radically change the dynamic of the series. for example, moe getting married hasn’t taken away from his commitment to his tavern, and carl’s personal development hasn’t separated him from lenny or his other friends.

smithers is definitely in for some type of change (I theorize they’ll try to give her a permanent romance in the next few years), but I don’t see there ever being an episode in which she quits her job, or even develops a permanent assertiveness in her interactions with burns (ned temporarily stood up to homer when he got with edna, but that didn’t last; sometimes a character’s submissiveness is too important to fully write out).

however, My point here is that the simpsons doesn’t have some weird vendetta against burnsmithers or its fans, nor is it acting out of a disregard for burns and smithers as characters. they’re just developing her, which isn’t bad just because it doesn’t revolve around your ship.

thinking abt bottle episode now -_- i think it's so exhausting to watch burns and smithers in recent seasons because it feels like the writers are trying to write AROUND their codependency? they can acknowledge it exists on paper, but in practice, they fail to anchor their interactions in a logical understanding of it.

like, they had burns pestering smithers for help early in the episode to the point it was a catalyst for the plot, and yet, when smithers is INCARCERATED burns doesn't notice until he's specifically told? it just feels like the writers don't want to engage with how these two need each other to function, not just from the watsonian perspective but doylian as well.

without smithers, burns becomes just an evil old rich man. without burns, smithers kind of just exists??? they are both SO important for contextualizing each other and creating respective depth.

along with that, i think smithers' personality has become way too reliant upon his gayness. in the name of "representation," they've brought it into the forefront of his characterization and, in doing so, dropped most of the shit that actually made him unique in the first place. of course the writers can't see why he would like mr. burns anymore! they just see him as a nondescript spineless gay guy! i believe his writing is way more homophobic than it was in the early years because it feels like being gay is all he has at this point. and yet he's also not allowed to be gay FOR mr. burns. and mr. burns is a pathetic old man, but he's not allowed to need smithers because he has to be one dimensionally evil and capable of performing functional independence.

their newfound lack of chemistry drastically impedes their ability to be enjoyable and entertaining, and i think the writers know that but don't realize it's their own fault. it seems like they don't have fun writing the two as the unit they're supposed to be, so they go to great lengths to mischaracterize them even further just to keep them from interfering with each other's plotlines. i mean god, take thirst trap for example. i'll just post what i said about that one on discord.

[text: they got the "smithers likes mr. burns" thing down and they don't seem to know anything else about them and i'm just staring at them like there is no world where mr. burns marries a random shady woman who is blatantly using him for his money and smithers is just like Yeah she's cool because she likes Mr. Burns too!

No. He would want to kill her and wear her skin]

more than anything i wish that burns and smithers would be allowed the codependency that defined them in the first place. they don't just like each other, they NEED each other, and that fact is supposed to create an obstacle that defines them intrinsically. that's where their writing begins. can we just go perform a simpsons coup d'état

[transmascutena]

thinking about how akio sees his younger self in utena and wondering if there's any fondness there. doesn't change the horror of what he does to her obviously but i do wonder

[aleksanderscult]

It's rant time

I swear every time a person says "Alina was a little girl/teenager" and "the Darkling was a weirdo for wanting her" my peace is replaced by an immense annoyance.

So just because the Darkling is immortal he's not....allowed to have a relationship?? So what, he must remain single and alone forever otherwise he's gonna break your white moral code? Do all immortal creatures must remain single and not have a partner?

Since when was Alina a "little girl"? She was seventeen, a certified adult by the Grishaverse standards since people are considered adults by the age of sixteen. So where did the "teenager" term came from?

And bold of you to assume that the word "teenager" even exists in this universe. In the Grishaverse you're a child and then you straight up become an adult at the age of sixteen. There are no teenage years for them.

And these passages from "King of Scars" prove it:

"She's barely sixteen" - which probably means that sixteen is also the age where girls begin to get married. In this case, Elke Marie will get married even sooner and no one bats an eye (everyone except Nikolai who tries to find an excuse to not get married).

And let's not forget the fact that Alina was immortal while she still had her powers. So if she had never lost them, sooner or later she would inevitably end up with Aleksander. The only other creature who could be with her.

Literally no Grishaverse character was disturbed or raised eyebrows for Alina's age. They all chastised her for wanting the "bad guy". Because it was the choice that made them revolt not the age, since she was an adult by then. They expected much from her (to rule, to lead, to fight) because quite simply she wasn't a child.

This babyfication of female characters in every piece of media has become a trend and I don't like it. You people will never accept other fictional universes' rules and you will never allow female characters to have depth and complexity. Alina had a sexual desire for the Darkling, she had feelings for him, she wanted power and she had her own darkness inside her but you will never get her out of the "she was just a little girl" description. You make her even worse than how she was written.

And it's evident how you have no problem with Nikolai proposing to Alina and even suggesting that he wanted children with her but everyone raged when the Darkling showed interest and sexual desire for her.

[fairyroses]

She was the only thing I was living for. I’m sorry for your loss, sir, but right now we need to get you airborne. Police will be here any minute. I’m well aware of that. I’m turning myself in.

— SMALLVILLE, “Bizarro” (7.01)

[wickmitz]

was once again glancing at the lackadaisy reddit and i genuinely feel a little crazy about how people perceive the wick and mitzi arc from retinue to sneakthief? or, honestly, their arc in general. to act as though wick is some patron saint greatly amuses me when it’s implied by mitzi and the comic that wick had either proposed a business deal himself or had been very amendable to talk about it after their kiss and / or other intimate acts last night … mitzi didn’t pull this out of her ass! she did not put this upon wick randomly. it was something they mutually agreed to do, and given how hard wick tries to wiggle away from the conversation without outright saying no ( aka giving excuses to stall ) i would even guess he essentially already agreed to such a deal, in the throes of passion, only for him to not fully mean it later. this doesn’t mean it was right at all for her to then steal from wick! this isn’t me excusing that! but wick isn’t some poor meow meow either in this scenario, even if he is the ‘lesser’ evil overall.

and tbh i also think the conversation was doomed from the start : wick was horrifically exhausted and was still too shaken up by rocky’s ‘joke’ to fully engage with mitzi, as well as finally having church’s warning start to weigh on him … and then there’s mitzi, who wasn’t faring any better! what with viktor out of commission, asa turning on her, mordecai threatening her, and then having spent most of the afternoon hearing her dead husband’s name be thrown around. in order to hurt her and scare her into obedience, mind you. like, neither were in any state to discuss business or romance!! so it’s no surprise it went poorly. especially when both of them were equally sore and testy during their date.

[a-star-that-burns-brightly]

I'm so glad to see more people talking about just how disturbing Yuno's situation actually is and how maybe it did fuck up her 18 year old psyche to have middle aged men sleep with her