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bustyasianbeautiespod · 9 months ago

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Episode 84 Transcript: Sam and Dean’s Meeting Schedule as Prescribed by Grey BABPod

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show so many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 2: "Good God, Y’all," written by Sera Gamble, directed by Phil Sgriccia, which is a surprise to me because I feel like there's a Robert Singer zoom this episode. [laughs]

C: Huh. Yeah. And I'm surprised that it was written by Sera Gamble given that it's literally just a redo of 3.01, which was a Kripke.

G: This is better than 3.01, though. Definitely. [C: A little bit?] Yeah.

C: Sure. I don't know. I think it's worse because it comes second, so it's like, we already saw it. [laughs]

G: Hmm, well, okay, here's the thing. When I was watching this episode, I was like, “Um, does anybody love Supernatural?” [laughing]

C: Huh. I did not feel that way.

G: No, okay. First off, this episode looks different from what we have had, I think, recently, including like, the last half of Season 4. [C: Yeah, more "Croatoan"-y?] Yeah, it looks Season 1 to 3-ish, specifically 1 to 2-ish, and I think it is because it feels like "Croatoan," the episode. That's what the episode is called, right? [C: Yeah.] And yeah, so it feels like that. The vibes are correct. And like, I don't know, like, multiple times watching this episode, especially, like, the first half, I was like, "I remember now why I kept on watching Supernatural," [laughs] which is like, I feel like a bit of a crazy statement to make given that I am watching Supernatural still after so so many years. [C: Yes.] But like, sometimes I do forget that this isn't just like, something I've always liked. It's like-

C: Yeah, you have to make the decision to keep consuming poison at every step.

G: Exactly. And I drank that poison every single time, because I liked the show. And this episode, I was like- Like, is this episode really a standout? Not particularly. [C: No.] But it is for that reason that I think it brought those thoughts to me. Because it's a case episode, fundamentally, and we haven't had that in so long.

C: Yeah, this is true.

G: So now that we have a case episode, I'm like, "Um, is Supernatural a show that I like?" And yeah, I suppose it is. Crazy! [C: Congrats.] Thank you. What do you know about this episode?

C: The only thing that I actually knew was the "And I did it, all of it, for you! And now you and your brother have ended the world," or whatever Cas says.

G: Yeah! I mean, did you know that prior to when I said it last episode, or you just knew it?

C: Well, I knew that it was either in 5.01 or 5.02, and it wasn't in 5.01, so. [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] And then I figured that we would see Jo and Ellen again [G: Yeah.], but I didn't know this was the episode where they were gonna die or not, and it's not, so.

G: That's- I'm not gonna say the number, but, I mean.

C: Okay, yeah. Is that- that's not also in "Abandon All Hope," is it? [G: Mm.] I think it could be because I know Meg kills them. [G: We'll find out!] And I'm assuming that's the episode with like, the "Last night on Earth, well, I'm gonna spend it with a little something I call self-respect." And then the like, Cas doing shots with Ellen and Jo. [G: Yeah, and the picture.] Is that all 5.10? And the group picture, yeah. Okay. Well, that comes later. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, I didn't know too much.

G: Yeah, okay. Did you know about Rufus?

C: I did not.

C: Rufus doesn't really have much characterization this episode, [C: Yeah.] but it is nice to see it again. It's nice that he calls Bobby.

C: It's nice to see him again. I enjoy his face. [G: Yeah.] And that he calls him right away.

G: Literally- because that happens right after the Cas scene, right? So I'm already like, thinking, like, "Ah, Supernatural is a good show!" [laughs] And then Rufus shows up, and I'm like, "Is Supernatural the greatest show of all time?"

C: "It's a great show!" yeah.

G: I'm so easy to please. They have a music cue this episode, and I'm like, "Wow!"

C: I thought the scoring of this episode was quite bad, actually.

G: No, I didn't really pay particular attention to the scoring in general, but the song in the middle- not in the middle. When they're entering the town. [C: The heaven one?] When they're entering the town.

C: Yeah, I have the name written down somewhere

G: I have, too. This is not a song I would seek out by myself, but when it plays in my various "songs that play in Supernatural" playlists that I have saved, I do listen it through, so.

C: Okay, "Spirit in the Sky" by Norman Greenbaum [G: Yeah.], 'cause he heard, like, Black gospel music, and then he said, "I can do that, actually. And it's really easy." and then he wrote the song. [G laughs] That's the backstory. It's on genius.com.

G: It's a one-hit wonder. I don't think he has ever released a song that was famous ever again. So yeah.

C: Well, there you go. Maybe you aren't that good a songwriter. [G laughs] But yeah.

G: Yeah, well, okay, so we start the episode. We have, you know, another "Road So Far."

C: Another "Then" sequence, with "Long, Long Way From Home" by Foreigner playing.

G: Yeah. It's... okay. [C: Yeah.] We do get like, a substantial Cas section.

C: Do we?

G: Yeah! Of him killing the- of him stabbing the angels.

C: Yeah, I suppose one shot of Cas [G laughs] could be a substantial Cas section depending on how you look at it.

G: Yeah, I mean, for me, like, Cas's entire purpose in this episode is like, "Oh, what a substantial role Cas plays in this episode!" [both laugh] And it's literally nothing.

C: Being hot, yeah. [laughs]

G: He plays no role in this episode.

C: Yeah, so the "Then" sequence, it's pretty like, Sam blood-drinking centered, I'd say.

G: Yeah, due also to where they take this episode.

C: Yeah, they have- They decide to keep in Dean's wonderful line "Are you jonesing for another hit of bitch blood or what?" [G: Yeah.] [laughs] without keeping in Sam's response, so yeah, interesting way of shaping the narrative there.

G: And we also see, you know, Ellen and Jo, so we know [C: Yeah, we see Rufus.]- yeah, so we know what's coming.

C: Another way of shaping the narrative is that for seeing Rufus, we just hear Bobby say, "He's a hunter," and like, not the part where he's like, retired? [laughs]

G: No, yeah. We'll talk about Rufus when we get there.

C: No explanation of- yeah, uh-huh.

G: But I'm assuming it's just because- the last time we see him is Season 3-

C: Yeah, the Apocalypse, so he's like, "You need as many people as you can get," blah blah blah.

G: No, I think it's also the fact that the case is introduced as Rufus is investigating omens here. I think there is the factor of just so much is happening, you just can't ignore it, even if like, you're aware of the Apocalypse or not. [C: Yeah.]

We start the epi. We're in the hospital where Bobby is confined.

C: [laughing] And there's this sad music. [G: Yeah.] Ugh. Annoying, I think

G: I think- Okay, can you tell me why? Verbalize.

C: I think it comes in more later, when, like, Bobby's talking. I think it's that- In like, in terms of like, when people become disabled, like, of course, like, individuals are going to like, mourn that because of the ways that they have to change how they live their life [G: Mm.], but like, most media about people being sad about their disability is like, coming from a place where they think that, like, an able-bodied life, is the only one worth living, and like, the sadness is basically like, thinking the character can never be happy again and may as well be dead now. And I think if it was just like, Bobby expressing personal upset without the music, it would be like, just the first case, like, an individual being sad about the way that his life has to change. But when you add in, like, the larger creator side of the music [G: Yeah.], then it feels more like, the second thing where it's like, "He may as well be dead now!"

G: Yeah, it feels like the show is already making a judgment call of this entire situation [C: Right.] instead of just Bobby feeling feelings. Okay, I understand that. I do think- because, like, with Bobby, my entire vision on how this arc goes is a bit fuzzy. I know how it ends, which is Crowley [C: Crowley.], yeah, Crowley gives him his leg functions back. But I don't know what how he acts in the middle, you know. I'm not sure. So I think, for me, I'm like, okay, let's see how the show navigates it before I make my judgment call. [C: Yeah.] I mean, as you said, like, I mean, yeah. If this happens to you, you would be upset. So I mean, like, yeah, okay. For Bobby, there also must be the feeling of like, "It's the [both] Apocalypse." And then there's also this thing. [C: Yeah, "And this limits what I can do," yeah.] And also, like, you know, when Cas says later, like, "Oh, I can't heal you," and Bobby was like, "Oh, so I'm just gonna be stuck here for the rest of my life." And I was like, "Well, bit of an exaggeration. Cas, like, when this is all over, Cas can just heal you, I suppose." But like, Bobby does think that he is gonna die soon because of the Apocalypse.

C: Aren't we supposed to assume that Cas gonna be cut off from Heaven like, permanently because of his betrayal, though?

G: Ah. Yeah, I suppose. I didn't think of that.

C: Yeah, he's not cut off because it's the Apocalypse. He's cut off 'cause he helped Dean.

G: Yeah. But if- you know/ Yeah, he'll be cut off forever, even if Heaven or Hell doesn't pursue the Apocalypse. As Crystal said, this is what's happening, and Sam is on the doorway, just watching. Dean comes in. He's holding a fucking X-ray envelope, and Sam and Dean stop talking about, like, "Oh, what's up with Bobby?"

C: Having the world's loudest conversation, like, eight feet away from him.

G: [laughs] Yeah! Later, Bobby, for a different conversation, goes, "I can hear you." And I'm like, "Bobby can hear them the entire time." [C: Yeah, earlier, also.] The amount of self-control he had to just not say, "I can hear you" immediately as like, Dean struts in and goes, "It's been like, three days now." [both laugh] Like, he was so strong for that.

C: Yeah, I guess he was being not talking, 'cause he was sad for three days, [G: Yeah.] so it didn't occur to him to say, "I can hear you."

G: Yeah. But yeah, Dean is like, "Oh, what the fuck are we gonna do? Can I give him a backrub?" And Sam's like, "Dean, stop joking around." And he says that "Maybe we just have to wrap our heads around the idea that Bobby might not just bounce back this time." And he points out the X-ray Dean is holding, and Dean got glamor shots from radiology. And Sam holds up the X-rays, and it's ribs with sigils, I think in Enochian, right? Yeah, Dean is like, "Oh, the doctors are baffled because I'm so special." And Sam's like, "Holy crap."

C: He's not that special. [laughs]

G: [laughs] Wait. Sam goes like, "Holy crap," and Dean goes, "Yeah, well, Cas carved you one too," and I was like, [laughing] "That line is for Crystal, specifically."

C: Well, Cas did! [G laughs] I mean, if we're saying "That line is for Crystal, specifically," the scene where Cas says, "I did this to both of you," and touched both of them on the chest is "for me" to to show that it happened to both of them, apparently. [laughs] But yeah.

G: Wait, where did Cas say "I did this for" and touch both of their chests? What are you talking about?

C: No, when he- I'm saying in the last episode, when he actually carves it [G: Ah.], and it's clear that he did it to both of them because he touches both of them and says that he does it both of them, [both laughing] I guess it was petty old Crystal wanting it to be clear that he did it to both of them. I guess the scene where he did it at all is also just for me.

G: [laughing] Yeah, and they're pandering to you specifically. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. They knew they knew, like, 15 years later, I would be sitting here.

G: [laughing] Going, "Well, he carved Sam's ribs too!" And he literally did. Yeah, Sam's phone rings. Interesting that he calls Sam, I believe.

C: Yeah, 'cause he knows his number. Well, he also called Sam in 4.15, didn't he? [G: For what?] As Bobby?

G: [laughing] Oh, yeah. This is how he knows Sam's number.

C: Yeah, he's known Sam's number the whole time, and I don't know if he knows Dean's number. Maybe 'cause he's not into him and he's into Sam. Maybe we can think about that. But yeah. [laughs]

G: Wait, what I'm saying is that it's pretty funny that he calls Sam because [laughing] that is pretty much the only communication that happens between Cas and Sam this episode. [C: This is true.] He calls Sam to be like, "Hey, where are you and your brother? Okay." [C laughs] And then he goes there and just talks to Dean the entire time. And it is so funny to me, personally. But, whatever.

C: It is pretty funny. I mean, I'm sure he feels awkward about letting Sam out of the room [laughs] and also how he's not gonna tell him that he let him out of the room.

G: Many choices for Sam, and specifically Sam's interaction with other people this episode was so fascinating.

C: [laughing] You mean when Ellen goes, "I'm so glad to see both of you" [overlapping] and then just hugs Dean? [both laughing]

G: Yeah. I legitimately thought- [C: Everyone hates Sam's ass!] You know, what I thought was happening in that scene, I was like, "Does Ellen think that like, Sam started the Apocalypse? Did she hear something about it so she's upset with him?" But literally not. She just DGAF. She doesn't wanna hug Sam. Sam's too tall for a hug. [C laughs]

C: For real. But yeah, no. Despite the fact that, like, this episode concludes with like, a Sam thing, they really just aren't thinking about Sam and his relationship to other characters, like, at all.

G: Yeah. A lot of the Sam introspection this episode is introspection just within the self. There's no character interaction. [C: Yeah.] Sam says where they are, and then Cas like, hangs up on the phone, and Sam's like, "Ugh, whatever." And- [laughs] Oh my god! This incredibly iconic line-

C: Did you- okay, one point against Sastiel is that- did you notice how Sam pronounces Cas's name [G: Yes!!] when he picks up the phone? He goes, "CAS-tiel?" [laughs] What the fuck is that?

G: You know what? This is my dream for- this is my vision for Supernatural. I want that every single time Sam says Cas's full name, Castiel, [laughing] he pronounces it a completely different way.

C: Cas-teel? Yeah.

G: He should be like, "Castiel." How does he do it this episode? Like, Cas- huh?

C: CAS-tiel?

G: CAS-tiel. He should do a Cas-TEEL. He should do a Cas-chel, even, just like me for real. [C: Yeah.] He should do Cas-tee-ell. He can do everything. He can do whatever he wants. [C: Yeah.] And it's important to me. [C: Yeah.] There's this incredibly iconic shot of Cas walking into this fucking hospital hall.

C: Yes, with his little trenchcoat swishing

G: [laughing] It is so important to me! Like, this is just- this is this specific shot that has been giffed to hell and back. Everybody knows it. Everybody's seen it. It's Cas! And his threshold is swishing, and he he's on his way to talk to them. To Dean, specifically. He doesn't give a shit about anybody else. But okay. Yeah, he walks in, stands in front of Sam and Dean, and Dean goes, "Ugh, cell phone, Cas, really? Like, since when do angels need to call?" And Cas says, "Well, you're hidden from me now due to the sigil, so whatever." And Bobby goes, "Enough foreplay." Casbobby real. [C laughs] "Get over here and lay your damn hands on me." Casbobby real. [C: Yeah.] But like, Cas doesn't respond, and Bobby's like, "Well, what's happening?" and Cas says, "I can't, because I'm cut off from Heaven," and also he doesn't have his- Like, there are things that he can do, and things that he can't, and this one, well, he cannot. And Bobby's mad. He says, "What? Like, I'm just gonna be stuck here? You lost your powers just in time to get me stuck in this trap for the rest of my life?" Yeah, Cas does say, "I'm sorry," which I do appreciate. And Bobby says, "Shove it up your ass," [laughs] which I also do appreciate. Yeah, this is when Dean is like, "Well, at least he's talking," and Bobby goes, "I heard that." And he goes to turn to Dean, and I say to turn to Dean, [C laughs] because Cas- like, Sam is also in this scene!

C: They're like, less than a foot apart.

G: Yeah, he stands so close to the Dean, maintains perfect eye contact with him-

C: It is impossible him to be, yeah, looking at anybody else or talking to anybody else.

G: And Sam is not even in the shot or any of their faces-

C: Sam is back against the opposite side of the room, like, where Bobby is.

G: Yeah! Like, we need a third shot to see Sam. [laughs] Like, he is not in this conversation at all. And it is funny every time we pan to Sam and he's like, looking at Cas talking, and Cas is just fully looking at Dean! [laughs] Incredibly funny.

C: Yeah, I mean the One Direction RPF post, "he only got two eyes," [G: Exactly.] but still. He's making sure that his two eyes can only behold Dean because of how close they're standing, so that's different. That's real.

G: Yeah. And then Cas goes, "Okay, we need to talk about your plan to kill Lucifer." [laughing] And I was like, "It's Sam's plan, too! Sam is in this plan also."

C: Yeah. In fact, Sam was more for it. [G: Yeah!] Because he was the one who was like, [both] "Let's get the Colt!" Dean was like, "I was just making shit up to like, make Bobby happy or whatever." Okay, I feel like Sam is one of those people who says, like, "we" when presenting a team project, and Dean is one of those people who says "I." So like, Sam, will call Cas and be like, "Oh, like, we have a plan to like, find Lucifer. And like, we wanna find the Colt." But like, it is just him. And Cas just attributes it to Dean.

G: No, you know what? [C: What?] I don't think this is a Dean problem. I think this is a Cas problem through and through. Because later, he goes, you know, when he does the "I did it all of it to take care of you," and you can assume the "you" is like, Sam and Dean. [C: No, you can't!] And then later, he goes, "You and your brother." [C: Yeah!] [laughing] So it's like, no, the "you" is just Dean, 'cause when he's talking about Sam, he adds a "your brother" in there, which is so funny. Cas is so funny.

C: Yeah, Sam's like, right there! Yeah.

G: Yeah, and he doesn't even spare Sam a look when he goes, "You and your brother destroyed the world" or whatever, he's just completely looking at Dean!

C: Yeah, I mean, he's still prejudiced against Sam about the demon blood drinking thing [G: Yeah!]. It is a shakier place for them right now.

G: But it is incredibly funny to me. You know, I think maybe the appeal of Destiel in Season 5 is that I think Cas literally just has a crush on Dean, and he doesn't get that. Like, Cas doesn't get that. He doesn't understand what's going on. Good for him.

C: Yeah, he thinks he haus angel Covid.

G: [laughs] Probably. Cas says, "Oh, your plan is foolish, but I think I have the solution. And there is someone besides Michael strong enough to take on Lucifer." Sam's like, "Who's that?" And Cas says, "The one who resurrected me and put you guys on that plane. The one who began everything. God." [C laughs] And then Cas goes- no no no, they do a zoom-in first. They do a zoom on Dean's face.

C: Yeah. When they cut to Sam's face [G laughs], it's so clearly a Jared Padalecki trying to act confused. Like, Sam like, twitches his face in a way that is incredibly unnatural.

G: There is something about Sam this episode that feels so Jared Padalecki. Like, later, I have that thought of like, "Oh, this is Jared Padalecki putting on something." in the final scene, which like, when he's talking to Dean. [C: Huh. Really?] Because in "French Mistake," Sam plays Jared playing Sam, right? And there is a certain delivery at-

C: He played Sam playing Jared, but yes.

G: Yeah, whatever, yeah. But there's a certain delivery on those lines, and the thing is the way Jensen acted Dean acting-

C: "If there's a lock... then there must... be a key!" [G laughs]

G: No, but the thing is, the way Jensen acted Dean acting was like, it was very obvious that, like, it's different. Like, Dean doesn't know how Dean the character is supposed to be acted, so he is acting just completely weirdly, and also, he just doesn't know how to be in front of the camera. With Sam, there is this idea that Sam is self-aware enough to be like, "And if I was in a TV show, this is how I would be acted." And so Dean is acting just completely different, but Sam is acting like an exaggerated version of how Sam is acted. And there is a certain delivery he does in those lines where he emphasizes his "h"s, and like "hah!" That kind of noise? Like, "ah!" He emphasizes that. [C: Yeah.] And he does it in the last scene of this episode, and I was like, "This is literally Sam Winchester, like, playing himself." And I understand- and like, in my head, I was rationalizing it as this is probably a speech Sam rehearsed, so like, this is not off the cuff. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] This is like, Sam playing the role of Sam doing this speech, and I understand that, and that's why it feels a bit stilted. Because it's supposed to be. He's doing a speech. But also, I think maybe Jared is just not having a good episode shoot [C: Acting day, yeah.] this entire episode. [C: Maybe so, yeah.] Also, did you notice Sam's sideburns? Did that just show up?

C: I think he's had sideburns for a while.

G: I feel like it's a lot more prominent this episode.

C: But his hair is a lot less dykey this episode than it was the last, I think.

G: Yeah, it's a different look. But yeah, Cas says, "I'm gonna find God." And it's the splash screen. Oh my god! We haven't talked about the splash screen last episode. It's blood, and I don't know why.

C: Yeah, like floating in water. What?

G: Why is it here? Why was it- I mean, we always say this. The fucking splash screens are not- like, the designers generally don't know what's gonna happen when they design it.

C: I mean, there's blood in all seasons of Supernatural.

G: Yeah, but last season was the demon blood, so.

C: Last season was the wings, though.

G: Yeah, I understand that. But- you know. It's fine. But, like, how does this connect to the bigger whatever? [laughs] I don't know.

C: I don't know. I haven't seen it.

G: Well, I've seen it, and I don't know.

C: Well, Sam does have to drink a lot of blood to get Lucifer to possess him, or whatever. So probably that.

G: Yeah. I forgot to mention it last episode, but I was thinking about how, in Season 3, you know, we start the season thinking, "Dean is gonna go to Hell. But surely, he won't!" And then he dies. And I feel like that does up the ante of like, the Michael vessel thing.

C: Oh yeah, because, "What if he does say yes?"

G: Yeah, because like, you're thinking, "Oh, Dean is never say yes. Look at him. He's never gonna say yes." But you also thought he wasn't gonna go to Hell, so I don't know. [C: Yeah.] And also, I think delaying Sam's reveal of being Lucifer's vessel is partly because of that. [C: Yes.] Because he will become Lucifer's vessel, so you have to delay that a little bit more. And Dean won't be Michael's vessel, so it's okay to have this information out and about so we have more like, "Oh, and he's trying to evade it" feeling from it. Whatever. [C: Whatever.]

C: Dean closes the door of the hospital because they were just having this whole conversation out in the open. [G: Door wide open.] Yeah, and Dean is incredibly skeptical about this. And Cas is like, "Yes, he isn't in heaven. He has to be somewhere." And Dean goes, "Try New Mexico. I hear he's on a tortilla." [laughs] And Cas goes, "No, he's not on any flatbread." [G: And he's so serious about it.] I love him! I love him.

G: He's like, "Yeah, he's not on any flatbread." He's so serious about it.

C: Yeah, he's like, frowning. [G: Yes!] He's like, "Dean, like, don't be stupid."

G: "Don't be sillygoofy! I'm being so serious right now!"

C: Yeah. Agh. He's so everything. And Dean says that God is either dead, or he's alive but doesn't care about anyone. But Cas, you know, he insists that God is out there. And Dean continues pushing about how God doesn't care and he fucked off [G: Ah!] and Cas goes, [both] "Enough. This is not a theological issue. It's strategic. With God's help, we can win." And Dean says that it's a pipe dream, even though, like, you don't know who put you on that plane, Dean! Like, it probably was God! [G: Yeah.] They don't know who resurrected Cas. It probably was God!

G: They just need Dean to protest against this so Cas can do his little line of like, whatever the next one he says.

C: Yeah. Well, right. So Cas walks closer to Dean, and now they're like, definitely less than a foot apart. [G: Yeah.] They're very close together.

G: They're very close. And again, camerawork close up on Cas's face and Dean's face. [C: Yeah, on their faces.] [laughs] What the fuck are they doing? Like, honestly, severely.

C: I don't know. Phil Sgriccia and Robert Singer are both like, in on this. [G: Yeah. I mean.] Well, Cas goes, "I killed two angels this week. My brothers. I'm hunted, I rebelled, and I did it, all of it for you, and you failed. You and your brother destroyed the world, and I lost everything [both] for nothing. So keep your opinions to yourself." Okay, yeah. Breakdown, bit by bit. Okay. "I killed two angels this week. My brothers." I want to know about this more because most of the angels were kept in the dark about this, except for upper management.

G: He killed those two with Zachariah.

C: Oh, is that the one he's talking about? [G: Yeah.] Okay, they're not even new ones? Whatever. Who cares? [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] Okay. I am curious about like, where the opinion in Heaven is. Like, are most angels, like, they just found out about the Apocalypse, and they're all like, on the side of the Apocalypse?

G: I don't know. Yeah. I mean, the way they've characterized their angels is odd in Supernatural.

C: Yeah, you have to obey or die, so yeah, even if they didn't want to hunt Cas down, they would have to. Ugh. Well, I guess we don't- We don't know what the relationship with those two angels was with Cas. Like, they didn't seem to know him so well. But yeah, like, he does feel loyalty to all of them.

G: I mean, before they can look at him, they were already stabbed through the neck, so. [C: That's true! That is true.] He says, "I'm hunted. I rebelled." [C: Yes.] True things, I suppose. Is he hunted? [C: Yeah.] I suppose now he is, 'cause last episode, he wasn't, 'cause they thought he was dead, so it don't matter.

C: Yeah, they thought he was dead, but now they know that he is not, and he's killed two angels, so yeah. He's probably hunted.

G: Yeah. "And I did it, all of it, for you." [laughs]

C: That's so funny. I love when a guy like, is standing around in a room going, "Man, I hope no one makes me act on my principles and save the save the world right now!" And then, as soon as it goes bad, it's like, "Why'd you make me do that??" [both laugh] He's so funny.

G: We had this conversation, I don't know if in the podcast or not, [C: We did not.] but like, Cas is so bad at analyzing his situation. Like, [laughing] he's so bad at introspection and self-reflection. [C: Yeah.] He's so bad at it! Like, he thinks is like- Yeah.

C: It's like, you didn't do it, all of it, for Dean. But now that Dean has failed and you don't wanna deal with the fact that like, I don't know, guilt that you didn't help him enough or didn't help him early enough or whatever, you're just like, "This whole stopping the Apocalypse is stupid! I can't believe you pressured me into this!" [laughs]

G: Yeah. Cas is so iconic. Yeah. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] And then, as I've said earlier, distinctifies the "You, Dean" by saying, "You and your brother destroyed the world. And I lost everything. For nothing."

C: Yeah. First off, the "You and your brother destroyed the world," no one is blaming the angels enough for any of this. [G laughs] [G: I know.] And like, for Cas, I get if it's like, he's still transitioning out of that job and things, and he still feels some vestiges of loyalty to Heaven because of the thousands of years and shit. I get why he wants to blame it on this one dumb man. But everyone else is just mad at Sam, and it's like, I feel like there was a larger issue at play here.

G: Yeah, like, everyone's mad at Sam. Everybody was mad at Dean for not stopping Sam. [C laughs] Like, what is this? What is this?

C: Yeah. And, okay, like, again, for Cas, I understand, because, like, his whole thing was like, "Okay, fine. I'll help you get to Sam. But, like, after that, like, I trust that you are able to finish this job." And he was like, fully- he did die because of it, [G: Yeah.] and then it was like, his death would have been for nothing, 'cause Dean skill-issue couldn't get through a door. [G: Yeah.] [laughs] Like, you have a gun, Dean. But yeah, I don't get why everyone else is just mad at Sam and Dean.

G: "So keep your opinions to yourself." Love that! I mean, I also want to point out the delivery of this line, which is, Cas always has a horse voice, and always- but he usually has a loud hoarse voice, but this one he really goes down to a whisper, almost. And it is very striking, because it's a big room, he's walking towards Dean, and he's very close to Dean, and there's two other people in this room, [laughs] and they're pretty far away. So, I don't know. Seeing this- thinking about this from Bobby's perspective, [C laughs] like, you're just sitting, like, looking out the window.

C: Seeing Cas's mouth move like "What the fuck is he saying?"

G: No, I don't think- I think he can still hear it, but, like, you know, like, behind you, this is two people just standing so close to each other, and one of them is speaking in almost a whisper, and like, "What the fuck is wrong with these people?" And honestly, I would probably think the same. [C: Yeah.] Like, when Bobby chimes in- because Bobby's the next line. He's like, "Ugh, can you just tell us what you're really here for now?" I'm like, "This is Bobby being like, 'Stop being so weird, you two.'" [laughs] [C: Mm.] And he's so real for that.

C: Okay, for "I lost everything for nothing." He already lost everything, right? Like, what was still going on for him before he betrayed Zachariah? I guess just like, security?

G: Yeah, security, his powers. [C: Mm, that's true.] I think we always need to remember that Cas lost his powers, and that is a big deal for the show and for him. And like, the, you know, Doylist reason is "We can't have a superpowered angel here." Like, it's gonna make the story- like, they'll either have to power up their enemies so so much or like, I don't know. Just work around that. So the solution they came up was just power Cas down. And I mean, it is fascinating that the way they worded it was "Some things I do, some things-" What was that? "Some things I can do, some things I can't" or something. [C: Yeah.] Which is like, well, slay. That's like- I mean, that's a very easy like, solution. Like, "Wait, why can Cas do this and not this?" And it's like, well, some things he can, some things he can't.

C: "It's one of the things I can't do." [both laugh]

G: Iconic. [C: Yeah. Iconic.] And yeah, he's looking for an amulet. And-

C: Yeah, like, Cas goes- Bobby asks, "What is it you want?" And then Cas, staring straight at Dean while answering Bobby's question, [both laugh] goes, "I did come for something." Like, okay, girl.

G: Agh, yeah. Cas says the amulet is "very rare, very powerful." It burns hot in God's presence. [C: It doesn't, though.] Sam goes, "A God EMF?" And it is so fun to me that like, Sam saying like, "A God EMF?" is kind of like, in disbelief, kind of a joke, you know? Like, "Really, there's an EMF for God? Like, that's so stupid. I feel like that'd be a bigger deal" or whatever. And Cas just like, sagely nods at him. And it's like, slay! [C: Slay.] Cas doesn't understand the ridiculousness of God EMF. Yeah, Bobby's like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have it." And Cas goes, "I know you don't." [both laugh] and looks and Dean. And you have to remember the camerawork for the both of them is so close. [C laughs] It's just them, and nothing else can be seen in the room. And I think part of it is that they must understand that it would look absolutely ridiculous to do like, a far away shot of Cas and Dean and see all these things around them. [C laughs] But yeah. He looks at Dean straight in the eye, and then Dean also looks at him. And then he looks down to Dean's chest, where the amulet is, and Dean follows his eyes. And then, you know, looks back up at Dean, and Dean's like, "What? This?" Well, first of all, I don't think we need to talk about- like, there's no like, bigger implication of this look or whatever. It is just extremely like, "Huh. Okay. What are they doing as a show?" You know what I mean? Like, as a show, what are you doing? And we'll find out in 5ever episodes.

C: I think they're just trying to make Cas be intimidating or whatever, but it's not working.

G: I mean, it's the same deal as Episode 2 last season, right? Like, they're trying to make Cas be- But that one worked, I feel, I believe. Like, Cas was intimidating, and also extremely hot, and it's a weird situation. Here, it's just Cas is whatever he is. Cas says, "May I borrow it?" which is a fun line. And Dean says, "No," and [laughing] Cas says, "Dean, give it to me," which is so funny! [C laughs] He's like, "Can I bowwow it, pwease? [C laughs] No, okay, I'll have it. Thank you very much." [C laughs] Dean eventually was like, "Okay, fine." And he takes off the amulet, gives it to Cas, and then, just when Cas is about to reach for it, Dean goes like, "Don't lose it." And yeah, Cas takes it, and Dean goes, "I feel naked." and Cas is like, "Okay, I'll be in touch." And then he disappears from the room. That's the only Cas scene this episode. [C: Yeah.] It is pretty iconic, though. I feel like this is a iconic Cas scene. Iconic to me. I love it. [C: Yeah.] I mean, "I did it, all of it, for you" is a famous Destiel line, I believe. Is it?

C: Yes. It should be. [G: It should be.]

C: We cut to like, Rufus. He is being an action hero. It's great. He has a gun. He's rolling under cars. He's like, helping some guy who's bleeding and dragging him to safety. And like, tourniqueting the leg of this guy. And then, in the middle of all this chaos and all this gunfire and all this everything, he gets on his phone and, speed dial, calls Bobby. 'Cause they're in love.

G: [laughs] How did you know this was speed dial? This is the same logic as the Aziraphale and Crowley one where you saw two movements of the hand as it presses on the phone, and you're like, "That's speed dial"? [C: Yeah.] Iconic.

C: Yeah, that's speed dial, 'cause they're in wuv.

G: They're in wuv, probably. It is nice that, I think, the last we hear of Rufus and Bobby, they have some falling-out, right, or something? Am I misremembering?

C: In 4.21?

G: 4.21, we hear of Rufus?

C: "If you call me again, I'll like, kill you"? [G: Oh, yeah yeah yeah.] Yeah, 'cause Rufus calls, and Bobby's like [G: "Suck dirt and die," yeah.], "Yeah, if you call again, I'll kill you." and Rufus just immediately calls again.

G: No, but I was telling you about how in Season 3, when Dean was like, "Oh, it was Bobby who sent me," Rufus is like, "Fuck off!" [C: Yeah.] I'm not sure, actually. Is it revealed yet in the show, their backstory? Not yet, right?

C: No, not yet. [G: Okay.] I don't even know to what extent it is revealed in the show. I only know the like- I think, like, one of the bonus journals or some shit reveal what the situation is. [G: Yeah.] They did have a falling-out, but they still seem to be talking fairly regularly.

G: Yeah. [laughs] They're having a falling-out for the show.

C: Well, I guess only in moments of emergency. Yeah, like, temporarily undivorce every time you want to talk to each other. [G: For real.] He doesn't call who he knows is in Colorado or whatever. Like, Bobby could be like, halfway across the country, and this is like a "I'm gonna get killed now" situation, but he still calls Bobby first.

G: Well, he already called Ellen and Jo. [C: That's true. That's true. ] So maybe this is a Rufus/Bobby/Ellen situation.

C: Maybe. Could be. So yeah, he dials Bobby, and Bobby has some difficulty hearing Rufus throughout, but eventually the information is conveyed that he is in River Pass, Colorado. Bobby has some difficulty hearing Rufus over the phone, but it is eventually conveyed that he's in River Pass, Colorado, and there's demons everywhere, the whole town's infested with them. He eventually gets cut off because he needs to fight some more people.

G: Yeah. There's this really dramatic thing where like, Bobby is still on the phone, but Rufus has stopped talking, and he can hear gunshots, and Bobby's like, [gasps].

C: Yeah. Gasp. The thing about Rufus is that he was still retired in Season 3 when the demons were let out of like, the Gate to Hell, [G: Yeah, like a season ago.] and there was a war going on, supposedly, between hunters and demons, and everyone was on board.

G: I mean, how retired was he, really? He did know information, and, you know.

C: Well, he was like, selling artifacts to people, including Bela, [G: This is true.] which is is a pretty like, neutral position to be taking, at least. [G: This is true.] Yeah, I guess in Season 4, we're not clear if he's still doing field work or if he's just doing like, research on omens and passing it along to Bobby. Yeah, I guess I was trying to figure out where his like, line of like, "Okay, I'm gonna properly, fully unretire" is. I think that Bobby being like, "Hey, Lucifer got raised" is a reasonable line to have.

G: I mean, also, the last time Rufus called, as you said, like, he was already calling about omens, right? So.

C: Yeah. I just wish we we knew in detail what he's been up to. But I guess just, he's just been doing whatever Bobby does. Anyway, so Sam and Dean head to River Pass, Colorado. And they go to this bridge, and it is completely cracked down the middle. So they have to leave the car there.

G: So we go through the town that Rufus is in. And on the way to enter it, the bridge is just completely broken. I love the look of this scene. Well, first off, this is like, the beginning of me being like, "Huh! It looks like a Season 1 or 2 thing." And various episodes of this episode- various parts of this episode look like that, such as the lighting, I believe, a little bit more dark this episode. Like, a bit higher contrast, probably because they're just outside, and we don't see them outside a lot on the daytime. That's why I'm like, "Ooh. It's different." Also, beside the river- the beside the lake scene later, and also specifically, there's a shot from the broken bridge where it's from below, so you're looking up to the crack of the bridge and to Sam and Dean looking down, and also the Impala, which is a very, very beautiful car. And I really like this shot. I think it's super fun. But yeah. Nobody can go in or out, because this is like, the only way in and out of the town. So yeah, the place is in lockdown. They decide to just, I don't know, like, walk in. So they go in, and they're both holding like, a gun each. Why did they bring backpacks?

C: They do have backpacks later, don't they?

G: Later. Later, Sam gets a backpack out of the backseat. But here, they're literally just like, walking with two guns. Okay, fine. As you said, music cue, baby! And it is fun, I believe.

C: Were they sort of going for like, a humorous thing where, like, everyone's missing, so it kind of looks like they all got raptured, or-?

G: Huh. Why is that humorous?

C: Well, okay, I thought it was humorous because of all the like, scenes where they're like, crouching down, and then do an exaggerated shaking their head at each other. [G laughs] And then I feel like the song itself feels humorous because it's not like, a very reverent take on going to Heaven, right? Like, there's the "I'm gonna go to the place that's the best" and like, I don't know, being friends with Jesus. Actually, Christian rock is like this all the time, actually. But yeah, I don't know. It just felt- it's a light-hearted vibe to the song. The acting is exaggerated and bad- or it's like, bad for a drama and good for a comedy. [G: Yeah.] And, like, all the cars, are empty and stuff. So I thought that they were going for like a "it looks like everyone got raptured, but like, in a funny way."

G: I didn't really think about the music cue aside from like, "It's fun that they have one," 'cause I don't think we've had one for a while in Supernatural, so I don't know what the relevance of the song really is or whatever. But yeah, there's like, cars are overturned, streets are empty, everything.

C: Sam goes to a car and turns off the radio, and the song stops, which I loved.

G: Yeah! Yeah, that was fun. But eventually, they hear a sound, and it's a gun being like, loaded or whatever. And as they turn, it's Ellen. Hi, Ellen! [C: Yay, hi, Ellen!] Ellen goes up to Dean, splashes his face with holy water, and Dean is like, "Ugh, whatever." And Ellen doesn't do it to Sam?

C: Well, some of it hits Sam. [G: But still!] Most of the water is directed at Dean, but like, a a good amount of it hits Sam, enough that you'd be able to tell if the skin was sizzling.

G: Yeah, but like, they should have put the like, camera angle for both of them, and like, have the splash be a bit more broad or whatever.

C: We've already seen issues with the camera angle [G laughs] in this episode. I think this is a continuation.

G: Phil Sgriccia! I thought we had something going on. [laughs] What is this, Phil?

C: I think they forgot the taller tripod on set that day. So they were like, "No shots of Sam this episode, I'm afraid."

G: Yeah, they forgot it for like, the first two episodes of Season 5.

Ellen confirms that they're not demons, so she goes and walks towards somewhere, and then they go inside. It's very guarded.

C: It's like an old church.

G: Is it? I couldn't figure out what it was. But there's a salt line, there's a devil's trap. And as they enter, Ellen finally looks at them, and like, sincerely says, "Real glad to see you boys." And then she hugs Dean. [C: Only.] Yeah, she hugs Dean only. And I was waiting for her to go and hug Sam, but it don't matter, I suppose. And her voice is shaking.

C: I mean, to some people, slapping Dean is hugging Sam.

G: This is true, but those people are not me. I think hugging Sam is hugging Sam. And you should give Sam a hug! He's been through a lot. Her voice is, like, shaky. I think she's trying to hold back something. I mean, she says here, like, she slaps Dean, and she goes, like, "You guys can't even pick up a phone? What? You can't give me peace of mind?" And she found out they're alive from Rufus.

C: There's a fun moment after she says, like, "What are you, allergic to giving me peace of mind?" where like, she's been glaring at Dean mostly, and then she turns her glare at Sam, who, like, clearly had previously been kind of laughing at the fact that she slapped Dean, [G laughing] and he immediately is like, "Oh!" and then schools his face into like, a "So sorry, ma'am" expression.

G: Iconic. Yeah. I mean, I've talked to hell and back about how I love love love love love that when, during the episode, where, in "No Exit," like, when Ellen is in the car with them, Ellen's in the front seat, and Sam and Jo are in the back. So this is, I feel like, a continuation of that kind of dynamic, which I love. [C: Yeah.] Dean says sorry, and then, you know, they proceed with their life. Ellen opens the door to like, the inside hall, and it's a bunch of civilians. There's so many demons, apparently. They tried to escape, but there used to be like, 20 of them, and now there's like, 9. So RIP.

C: Of course there's like, a pregnant woman here, because there's always a pregnant woman in these kinds of situations. But they actually don't do as much with her as I thought they would.

G: They don't. And I mean, did they always have a pregnant woman? They have that virgin, and she was like, they make a point of being like, "And there's a virgin here." [C laughs] I mean, they do. Not because, like, she's a virgin but because of the prophecy, whatever the fuck.

C: Yeah, needing a virgin's heart to stop the demons. I think there's just always a pregnant woman in like, survival situation, so you can be like, "Oh, no! But the pregnant woman!" [G: Yeah.] While they're there, it's also made clear that Ellen and Jo are hunting together.

G: Yeah, they're hunting together, but they got separated. And that's why Ellen was out and about. Sam recommends that they get everybody guns so that they can proceed to get out better than the last time's attempt. Dean is like, "There's a sporting goods outside, so they probably have guns. Let's gaur!" Sam tells Ellen like, "Okay, you stay. Me and Dean will go." But Dean protests because he's saying, "Why don't I just go, and you just stay with Ellen and teach everybody how to hold guns and stuff?"

C: [laughs] Without the guns.

G: Yeah, without the guns. You just mime it.

C: Dean just goes, "Just hold the air!"

G: You just mime it. You practice. Sam says it's inefficient because you also have to look for Jo and Rufus, and you're also gonna have to get salt and guns, so yeah. Stupid as fuck. Dean's like, "No, I can handle it," and Sam says, "You don't want me going out there," and Dean says, "I didn't say that." And Sam said, "Around demons." And Dean says, "I didn't say that." [C: "I didn't say that!"] And he is trying to be like, you know, casual about it, like, "Oh, I didn't say that! I didn't!" And he literally did not, to be fair to him, so.

C: I mean, he didn't say it, but.

G: I do appreciate how this is handled this episode.

C: It's not as- It's better than it has been previously, of course.

G: I do think it has a similar vibe to what Dean was like right before "The Rapture." It's that kind of like, "Okay, man. I'll just let you do your thing." But I think here, you know, it's a bit more on the careful side than those previous ones. And we have talked about how back then, it was like, nice, I suppose, or at least considerate of Dean to just be like, "Okay, Sam, just do your thing, whatever. I know I can't talk to you about this, so I just won't." And here, it's a similar vibe, but because- It's just a bit more complicated, I suppose.

C: Yeah. They leave out the part in the "Then" sequence where Sam makes it clear that he's not going through physical withdrawal, and I wonder what the point of that was. Like, leaving that part out.

G: 'Well, because they try to establish a different thing this episode.

C: Wouldn't it be helpful to make it clearer that like, currently, Sam isn't going through physical withdrawal, and it is just that he's missing how it made him feel. Or do you feel like that's already clear enough in the episode that that didn't need to be there.

G: I think it's clear enough, yeah. [C: Okay.] And I feel like putting that in "Then" sequence can be a bit- like, it's veering off of what the point of this episode is trying to make.

C: I mean, I don't think it's veering off of the point. I think it provides more context for where Sam is at right now.

G: But Sam explicitly does say it at the end, anyway.

C: Yeah, I guess. I guess. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out- 'Cause, currently at this point in the episode, because I remember that Sam is not going through physical withdrawal, I think Dean's being unreasonable. Like, when I was at this point in the episode without having watched the rest of it, so.

G: Well, Sam was addicted to demon blood.

C: Yeah. But like, I feel like, I was at a point where I was like, "Okay, well, if he's not going through physical withdrawal, whether he wants to or not right now-"

G: Well, there's a psychological aspect of it!

C: Yeah, I understand that there's a psychological aspect of it. But it's more like, Sam misses how it made him feel, I feel like I was in the mindset that Sam was at later where he was like, "Obviously, I learned my lesson, Dean. Like, what are you talking about?" [G: Mm.] So yeah, I don't know. I guess, later on, Dean is not being unreasonable, but like, I feel like, there's an argument that Dean is being unreasonable that would be bolstered by the Sam isn't going through physical withdrawal reminder.

G: The thing is, you know, the argument is, "Let's not put you in any situation just in case where you are exposed to demon blood in this way." [C: Yeah.] And then for Sam, it's like, "We have a job to do, and the job requires me to be in that situation," which is the crux of the argument- not argument. Which is the crux of the separation later, which I do appreciate it a lot. I did not expect thta.

C: Yeah, I thought it was gonna be more of a fight [G: Yeah, as I've said.] and not like, a genuinely healthy decision from both of them.

G: Yeah. And I mean, we talked about how they need to separate because it would be better for them, and the way Sam interfaces with it is "We need to separate because like, [C: Our job.] it's better for the world and the job," which I think is an interesting perspective, and a way to make it realistic for Sam and Dean to do. 'Cause, you think Sam and Dean are gonna be like, [fake-teary] "It's better for as people to separate"? Like, fuck [both] no. So like, it is a way to proceed in that direction in a realistic way, and also with difficult feelings, but not animosity, you know? Not pure animosity, anyway. [C: Yeah.] I appreciate it. Once they're out, Dean is like, "Let's go together," and Sam's like, "Well, no, I can, you know, I can go one way, and you can go the other." And Dean's like, "No!" And Sam's like, "Well, can we just be professionals about this?"

C: Sam goes inside of like, a grocery store to get a bunch of rock salt. And then two demons come in. Sam says later that they're teenagers. [G laughs] I could not tell that they were teenagers. [G: Yeah.] They're absolutely played by 20+ year-olds. [G: Exactly.] Sam like, hides for a bit, but eventually, he makes a sound that sets stuff off. And one of the demons, like, comes over and tries to choke him out. And I spent all Season 4 going, "I just have to remember that they forgot about exorcisms to explain why all that plot was happening." [G: He was trying to exorcise, yeah.] Like, they didn't forget about exorcisms! He's trying to do an exorcism right the fuck now.

G: He still has the fucking exorcism chat memorized, like. [C: Yeah.] He hasn't forgotten.

C: God, like, why can't you around with a tape recorder with the recording of an exorcism and play it?

G: Like, how loud does it need to be? How loud does the exorcism-

C: Loud enough for the demon to hear it?

G: Yeah, but what if the demon is in the body of a Deaf person? What's that?

C: Yeah, we had this discussion [G: Oh, we had this.] and it's like, I don't know.

G: Well, I don't know, and they should have figured out. They should have done a fucking study in Supernatural. [C: They should have.] They should have made Crowley possess different people and then been like, "Okay, listen to this. Are you getting exorcised? No? Okay, next one." [laughs]

C: Yeah. So he stabs one of the demons the death using Ruby's knife.

G: Yeah, on the stomach, and then the other one, the neck.

C: Yeah, the other one in the neck.

G: You know, they don't do the buzz- the like, electric blah blah, blah.

C: Yeah, I didn't notice that, but I guess-

G: I noticed it, and I was like, "That is so odd. Did they just miss-"

C: So you didn't know that it was War?

G: No. [C: Damn.] I mean, I knew it was War. [C: Danica knew it was War.] No, I knew it was War. I didn't remember how the demon thing-

C: And how there were no demons, yeah. Okay, you thought it was interesting that they decided to give you that hint in the episode?

G: Yeah, I think that was fun. Because I was like, the two thoughts I had was, "Did Supernatural editing team miss this?" And two was like, "Was that Ruby's knife?" Because they only show that it's Ruby explicitly after the second stab, right? [C: Right.] So I was like, "Is that just a random knife? What is going on?" But no, it is Ruby's knife. And I was like, "Huh. Interesting." And then later, when Jo was there, and I figure out that like, "Oh, there's no demons here." It's like, wait, is the like, the shock, the electric shock demon thing visible to Sam and Dean or only to us?

C: I think it is typically visible to Sam and Dean.

G: It should be? Because, like, why did Sam not notice? He was preoccupied. He has other things on his mind.

C: Yeah, he's preoccupied with not dying.

G: One-track mind, as War said later, I think.

C: Uh-huh. So after they get fought, there's a big ol' puddle of blood on the floor and then some blood on the knife, and Sam is just looking at the blood, and he's clearly thinking about having a little lick of it.

G: Yeah, he puts it on his finger.

C: Yeah, he takes his thumb and he wipes a little bit of it off on his thumb, and he's like, looking at it. But then, it seems he is about to lick it, Dean comes in. If Dean had been a little slower, like, they would have figured out that it wasn't demon blood by Sam licking the blood and then going, "I don't feel shit." [G: Yeah, exactly.] So Dean comes in and calls out for Sam, and Sam is just like, very awkwardly standing there with the knife, and like, hiding his thumb and being like, "Well, I can't wipe this off on my shirt. What the fuck do I do?" [G: Yeah.] And then they just both are just sort of standing there looking at the scene before them. [G: Yeah.]

C: Inside, Sam is helping people load up their guns and shit. Dean is also doing that. He's talking to some younger guy who knows his way around a gun. And apparently, he was a soldier in Iraq. He goes, "Takes one to know one. Where'd you serve?" I don't think it takes one to know one. [G laughs] I think that if you see someone being good at a gun you can assume things.

G: I didn't. I was like, "Wow, this guy, like, I don't know. He's good. Good for him. He's a hunter? Like, he hunted deer."

C: Yeah, he could hunt deer and stuff, too. Yeah. He goes, "Where'd you serve?" and Dean goes, "Hell." [G laughs] which is incredibly funny. Because, I think, like, what they're trying to say is that hunting is like being a soldier. But what Dean did in Hell [G laughing] was be tortured and then torture people, which I think is a better representation [G, laughing: Yeah.], which I think is a better representation of what the US military does than hunting.

G: This is Dean providing commentary on [C, laughing: Yeah.] the United States military imperialism.

C: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Dean says, "Lower the defense budget and put more of it into education and healthcare." Sam is sort of sitting by himself sadly, and Dean comes over and asks, "What's wrong?" And Sam goes, "It's just, at the store. Those demons were possessing teenagers. [G: Wrong.] And I had to slit some kid's throat." Huh?

G: No. Wrong.

C: [laughing] Those were 30-year-olds.

G: Those were 30 or 40 year-old men. [C laughs]

C: What if we find the actors and they were actually teenagers and we're just being really mean?

G: Well, I mean, to be fair, like, it's not like, a face situation. It's just the build-type thing, and they are very padded with jackets, I believe. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] I mean, later, there is like, a chimney thing, right, in this episode? [C: What?] A chimney thing.

C: Oh, yeah, like, they're burning something, yeah.

G: And I did wonder, like, "Wait, how cold is it right now?" [C: I mean, I guess cold, so.] Yeah, I guess cold. It is crazy how like, it doesn't look it. Like, the sun is up, and there's no snow. [laughs] I'm sorry, I have a very limited idea of what cold is supposed to look like.

C: Oh yeah, Colorado climates and such. No, sometimes it is very cold, even when the sun is shining. It's quite sad.

G: Yeah, how miserable. Or is it? Is it miserable?

C: [laughs] It is. I mean, it does make sense that Sam is not telling Dean the specific thing that he is bothered about just 'cause, you know, shit happened in 4.21, and he still doesn't know that the voicemail wasn't Dean. [G: Yeah.] And also, he does believe this, yeah. This may actually be the primary coherent thought on his mind right now. [G: Which one?] The like, "I wish that I could have saved those teenagers' lives." [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] Like, he could definitely back-rationalize that moment with the thumb as just like, "I was just testing myself." [G: "I killed these kids," yeah.] Or, yeah, "I killed these kids, I felt bad, I was looking at the blood out of guilt over how it was blood from kids. [G: Yeah.] And the thumb thing was just me trying to test myself to like, see where I'm at. And I didn't lick it. So there." So yeah, I do think he's probably repressing anything related to his addiction right now. Yeah, sowwy, Sam. Yeah, Dean says that he didn't have a choice. And Sam goes, "I know. It used to be like- I just wish I could save people like I used to." Sowwy, Sam. Well, if you had a little like, tape recorder [G, laughing: Literally.] and you recorded an exorcism on it ,you could also save people like you used to.

G: Yeah. And you can even experiment on the speed, the decibels, even. Like, you can do whatever you want forever.

C: Yeah. And I guess it's like, if the tape recorder gets smashed, it's kinda annoying, so you have to get a new one, but like, I think it's okay.

G: Get an MP3 player. Sam has an MP3 player.

C: Well, he doesn't want [G laughs] his sick tunes to be on the same device that the demons are going to go after!

G: Yeah, he puts it on shuffle, and it's like, Fall Out Boy, whatever whatever, fucking demon exorcism spell, another Fall Out Boy song-

C: Yeah, later in Supernatural, Sam can't afford a Spotify Premium account [G laughing], so whenever he tries to exorcise a demon, it's like, on a 15-song playlist that he can only skip 5 songs on or whatever [G laughing], so sometimes, it doesn't get to the exorcism.

G: Exactly. And this is like, a main preventer of their, you know, hunting activities. [C: Success, yeah, exactly.]

G: You know, every time they're attacked and you think they're about to get beaten or whatever, and then something changes. And the thing that changes is Sam-

C: It's 'cause you're reaching the end of the ad for get 30 minutes ad-free on Spotify.

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly! Like, the entire time, the tenseness is Sam going, "Oh, the ad is not ending!" So true.

C: [laughs] Yeah, I mean, Supernatural could probably get more money through that. By having ads directly inside the show [G laughs] via the Spotify app. [G: Exactly.] Okay, we have said during Season 4- Haven't you said during Season 4, "Isn't it kind of irresponsible of them to not let Sam continue having powers, given how helpful it is to hunting?" I can see that argument, still. Like, okay, so like, the negative consequences are that if he doesn't have it for a long time, he goes through withdrawal, and that feels bad, and that if he has too much, [G: He'll demon blah blah blah.] his body gets kind of fucked up. So like, there is a way to do it in moderation. Like, he didn't even want to drink that much. Like, Ruby made him drink the nurse. Like, it wasn't that like, he couldn't help himself, and he drank the nurse, so like, he didn't like, get to that level of blood out of his own desire to. Like, I still, but it could be fine if they worked out a system, and if Dean was someone that he could trust to talk to about this stuff. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, but that is not the situation. [G: Yeah, yeah, yeah.] Yeah, 'cause if there is like, a point where he's like, "I feel like I want the demon blood too much right now [G: Yeah.], and I'm like, at the point where I want someone else to stop me, but I don't know if I'd be able to stop myself, so here are the steps that you, Dean, should take," blah blah blah [G: Yeah.], like, that is something you can set up if Dean was a person you could trust with that kind of partnership, and he's not.

G: Yeah, it's just that Dean already has the judgment of it. He's already doing a moral judgment of everything.

C: Yeah, 'cause it is something that Sam probably couldn't do by himself. But, you know, I don't- is there anybody in the world of Supernatural right now who could be like, Sam's like, harm reduction drug buddy? [G: No idea.] Well, I in the beautiful world I've created in my mind where Samchuck is a thing, perhaps Chuck could.

G: You know what? You are right. You are right. Chuck can do it. [C: Thank you.] I mean, Chuck in, you know, when they had that conversation in 4.18, it was very surprising to finally have someone talk to Sam in that way, of like-

C: Yeah, I mean, he did also say, "Sucking blood? You gotta know that's wrong." But I think he could come around easier than Dean could.

G: He could come around, and also even back the,n he was already like, extending understanding to Sam, yeah?

C: Yeah, yeah. He was like, listening to his explanations, all that shit.

G: Yeah, and actually engaging with it seriously.

C: Oh, Samchuck. The ship you could have been.

G: And Sam's, you know, like, again, Chuck different from Chuck!God, but it would be incredibly funny, or like, I don't know, maybe meaningful to Sam, if, like, he's always like, "And God hates me!" or whatever, "and I pray all the time-" [C: And your boyfriend is God.] And literally, his boyfriend is God. [C: Yeah. God bless.] Literally.

C: And, you know, Dean proves himself as someone who cannot be Sam's partner in this, because as soon as Sam says, "I wish I could say people, like I used to," Dean goes, "What? You mean when you were all hopped up on demon blood?" Like, just- I don't- like, I think Sam's sentiment makes sense. [G: Yeah.] Like, you can just be like, "Yeah, like, there was something that was lost, but we've both decided that this is like, a better- you not having demon blood is better for you, health-wise, right now, but you can still mourn what you lost." [G: Yeah.] But yeah, whatever. And Sam goes, "I didn't say that." This is their favorite sentence this season, or this episode, at least, for both of them.

Ellen decides that she is going to head out because Jo's out there, and she says, "You guys just get these like, nine people out of this room. Let's go." And Sam says that he'll go with Ellen. Dean like, holds them back and asks if they can talk privately. And he's like, "What? You're gonna go out there again?" And like, I think, like, the idea is that Sam, subconsciously, is kind of trying to encounter demons again, but like, that's not really what's consciously on his mind right now. So I guess Dean has picked up-

G: Is that the idea?

C: I think so, 'cause in his later speech, he keeps saying that "I keep thinking that my intentions are good, but I think that underneath, like, I do want to have that feeling again."

G: When you watched this the first time, you thought that in the scene?

C: When I watched this the first time? No, I think this is in retrospect because of how Sam puts a narrative over his actions this episode. [G: Mm, okay okay.] Yeah, when I watched this the first time, it's like, well, yeah, like, Ellen shouldn't be going out there alone. So like, it's a dick move to go, "Dean can go with you!" So you volunteer yourself. You know, Dean's like, "What? You're gonna go out there again?" And Sam's like, "Well, yeah. Like, shit's happening." And Dean says that "He'll go." Yeah, Dean offers to go, but Sam says like, "Hey, no, no, no, I'll go." And Dean goes, "Why has it got to be you?" And Sam says, "Oh, that's right. I forgot. You think I'll take one look at a demon and suddenly fall off the wagon, as if, after everything, I haven't learned my lesson." Aww. Sam. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Like, he does believe this currently. But like, the thing about like, feeling incredibly guilty about letting Lucifer out into the world is that sometimes you will probably want to escape by feeling powerful and cool again. [G: Yeah.] So like, using like, a guilt-based mechanism to stop drinking demon blood isn't the way, but it seems to be what he's trying to leverage against himself. And yeah, it won't work. Sorry, Sam.

G: And, I don't know. There is, like I said, what Dean is essentially trying to do is just lessen- [C: Prevent Sam from being in situations where-] Sam being in situations where it could happen, which.

C: Yeah, and I think that makes sense. I wish that they had like, more of a discussion about it.

G: I wish they leaned more into it, because the way it is presented to us feels more like, Dean doesn't trust Sam fundamentally.

C: I mean, [laughs] that is how it is, though. Like, that's what he said at the end of last episode.

G: Yeah. But there is a difference, I feel like.

C: Yeah, I think there is a difference, but I think Dean is operating more off of "I don't trust Sam-"

G: No, there is a difference between thinking that Sam is purposefully trying to get himself into a situation where he can drink demon blood because he wants to, and "It may happen if Sam is left unattended." Like, "I trust you-" like, not trusting someone can have levels to it. [C: Right.] Like, "I don't trust you to-" Because what Dean has been saying-

C: Yeah, "When in that situation, be able to like, yeah, control yourself" or whatever.

G: Yeah. Versus "You're actually going to seek it out."

C: Yeah. I think that Dean does think Sam's going to actively seek it out, though.

G: I don't think so.

C: I think that Dean being combative- Dean literally goes, "Well, have you?" when Sam says, like, "I've learned my lesson." Like, that is like, "That means you're deliberately doing it."

G: No! [C: Yes it is, though!] I mean, you can learn your lesson and still be put in a situation and do the thing.

C: Yeah, no, but I’m saying, Dean asks “Well, have you?” Dean thinks that Sam hasn’t learned his lesson, which means he thinks Sam is actively seeking out demons to drink the blood of.

G: That’s not a direct line! That’s not a direct line. Like, you can- [C: I think it is.] What Sam is saying is, “You think I'll take one look at a demon and suddenly fall off the wagon.” He's not saying, “You think I'm actively seeking it out.” He's saying, “You think if I was put in that situation I'll fall back into it.” And Dean was like, “Well, maybe you will,” which is a different line [C: Well, okay, what happened is- okay.] than “You’re actively seeking it out.”

C: “Learning my lesson” is a different thing, I don’t know, I do consider “I've learned my lesson” as “my thoughts and stuff are constructed in a certain way where I wouldn't actively seek it out.” I don't know. [G: Yeah!] I understand what you mean, but I do think that the “Well, have you?” it's more than saying, “I've learned my lesson,” connecting that with “If I see a demon, I'll fall off the wagon,” is making it seem like it's more of a conscious choice than I would characterize it as? So Dean saying “Well have you?” makes it seem like he's saying, “Sam, you're making conscious choices to drink demon blood.”

G: If we see it as, you know, it's a slippery slope, right? And I think “Well, have you?” here is kind of like, “Are you aware of the first step you're taking and do you understand that that’s the slope?” I really, really, really do not think Dean is suspicious of Sam because he thinks Sam is actively seeking it out at all. That's not the vibe of any of the scenes.

C: Huh. I do think that Dean does have that form of thought, though. [G: Can you provide-] I don’t know. I get that vibe. I think that when Sam's like, “I'll go with Ellen,” and Dean's like, “No, I'll do it,” and Sam’s like, “No, I can,” and then Dean goes like, “Oh, why's it gotta be you?” it is asked combatively. It is asked in a “What are you trying to do, Sam?” way.

G: Hm. I just didn't read it that way, I suppose.

C: Okay. Well, I feel like I did, partly because Dean does- okay, you said that there are different forms of not trusting Sam. [G: Yeah.] I think I read the “I don't trust you” at the end of 5.01 as more of a “I think you are going to actively–”

G: Well, it’s because in Season 4, something that Dean kept on trying to–it’s like, “You don't know the difference between right or wrong anymore,” and so that's kind of where this idea is stemming from, that once you are put in the situation, you will find ways to justify it again. Which is how he sees the entirety of Season 4.

C: Okay, but I think he also thinks that Sam is deliberately putting himself in the situations, which is why he’s saying, “Why do you keep going out?”

G: There’s a difference between putting yourself deliberately in the situation, and then-

C: Okay, and then deliberately having the end goal of drinking demon blood. [G: Yeah!] : Okay. I think I get what you mean.

G: [laughing] Sorry, I’m extremely defensive about this. Yeah.

C: I don’t- I do feel like it gets a little hair-splitty at that point though. Because it’s like, if Dean is like, “I think Sam is deliberately putting himself in situations where there’s a demon because-” I don't know, like in a 4.07 situation where Dean's like, “Don't use your powers, man,” and Sam is like, “I shan't use my powers,” but then Sam is like, “Oh, but Dean, you stay behind and help the kids at the party who are trapped inside the mausoleum, and I'll go after the demon,” and the idea is that part of it is so that Sam will eventually be faced with Samhain and perhaps need to use his powers. And like, the idea is that Sam did set that up, kind of, because he does think of himself as the one who can defeat Samhain better, and “If that means that eventually, I'll have to tap into my power source, then I will.” I feel like- I think that's sort of what Dean thinks is going on here, and I think that that is similar enough to just trying to drink demon blood in general that- I don't know. I wouldn't separate those two thought patterns too much.

G: I think it is very separate, using my power versus drinking demon blood, very separate ideas. Sam intentionally going into a scenario where he already has the power and has the upper hand, versus the drinking demon blood in this very specific episode. Incredibly different.

C: Well, I mean, he'd be drinking the demon blood so that he can get the demons out of the people without killing them, though. The end goal for him, consciously, is the power that helps people. Like, consciously for him, he misses being able to save people when he was fighting demons. So it is like, “I would drink the blood so that I'd be able to kill demons without killing the vessels.”

G: It's just- I don't know. The way this is worded by Sam, he doesn't think Dean thinks that.

C: I mean, I don't know what he thinks that Dean thinks. I think he- I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what he thinks “I don't trust you” at the end of last episode means, fully. But I feel like for Dean, it does include a level of intentional deception or whatever.

G: Well, okay. I vehemently disagree. But okay, let's move on. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I know. [G: Yeah.] I mean, the “I don't trust you” is because of Sam lying to him a lot last season, right? That’s a component of it.

G: Yeah. But the vibe of the season, as we’ve said, is incredibly different, and also the vibe of Season 4 before 4.20 is also completely different, so.

C: Hm, yeah. It is hard to say. It depends on what is more prominent in your mind from Season 4, I suppose. [G: Yeah. Well. ] Right, as I said, Dean goes, “Well, have you?” And then Sam slams him into a wall! [G laughing]

G: It is fun. He pushes him! [C: It is fun.] He doesn't slam him into the wall, he pushes him in the way that my sister has pushed me against the wall and it knocked all of the air out of my body, and I was just standing there like, “I cannot breathe!” [both laugh] So iconic of him, honestly.

C: Truly so iconic and also so iconic. I guess Sam shoving him is meant to be like a “Sam does not have as much control over himself as he thinks he does.” But also, that was a pretty shitty question, [laughs] so. [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: I mean, to Sam, this is Sam not having as much control as he does because Sam always thinks about everything in that way. But to me, it’s like, [laughing] yeah, that's probably a proper reaction to the question, you know?

C: [laughs] Yeah, like, we all saw 4.21, I think you should be able to shove Dean as much as you want.!

G: Yeah, but to Sam it’s like, “Oh, and I'm losing control!” God.

C: Yeah, “I don't trust myself!” Like, no, you should probably shove Dean more, I think. If I had one note on you as a character, Sam, it's not enough shoving Dean. [G: Yeah.] But yeah.

G: You should slap Dean just like Ellen. [laughs] This is so mean. They should stop hitting each other, but go for it.

C: Yeah, they should both stop hitting each other, I guess. [G, laughing: I guess.] I think they should do that by not ever seeing each other ever again.

G: [laughs] Yeah, literally, every two months. No, not never again. Every two months.

C: Fine, every two months. They can have a Zoom call every two months. And then every two months, Dean has to buy a new phone because he like, [G: Slams it against the wall!] throws it at the ground at some point. [both laugh] [G: Exactly.]

CEveryone sort of sees this. So they all look over like, “Huh?” and Sam, he's kind of teary and angry, and he goes, “If you actually think I–” And then, right, he cuts himself off, and he leaves. Okay, I think part of why I'm reading what Dean thinks as what I read it as is that Sam is very hurt, and I think that like- I just feel like “If you were put in that situation you might end up drinking demon blood” is not that hurtful of a thing?

G: It is very hurtful to be thought of as someone who doesn't have self-control.

C: Okay, I guess people's views around addiction were different during this time, so Sam would take that as a “Dean blames me morally, personally,” and Dean also takes it as “I blame Sam morally, personally,” in the situation. So yeah, okay, I guess this level of hurt makes sense for the time period.

G: By the way, the door’s completely open this entire conversation and mini-brawl, [C: Yes.] so Ellen’s just seeing all this. [laughs] Iconic. Dean was like, “Sam, let’s talk outside,” [laughing] and then just completely [C: Just goes to- yeah.] revealed this to the entire room anyway. So true!

C: So true. Yeah, Ellen sees that, and she’s like, “Was it like, a girl?” Ellen, what? [laughs]

G: Yeah, so Sam and Ellen are off to the world, and Sam is being interviewed on what the fuck happened.

C: He's being interviewed on The Ellen Show!

G: Exactly. She says, “What happened, some girl come between you, or something?” [C laughs] Which is like, a Ruby thing. It's supposed to make you think of Ruby.

C: Oh, it does? I literally did not think of that at all.

G: Oh, I thought about it immediately.

C: I was just like, “What a silly thing to think. Next!” [G laughs] But you're right. They do put in the “Then” sequence, [dramatically] “You chose a demon over your own brother!” [G laughs] I guess it's like, I don't consider Ruby to be a main part of this. I consider it to be a Dean, Sam, and Bobby situation. But yeah. [G: Yeah.] I guess so. I guess Ruby did “come between” them.

G: Yeah. But Sam evades, and instead asks about Jo and Ellen, and how they're hunting, and how, “Oh, didn't you not want Jo to hunt?” And Ellen said, “Well, she's gonna do it, anyway, so might as well that she do it with me,” which is what I said about drinking in that one episode where you were like, “That is morally incorrect.” [laughing]

C: I- okay. I didn't think that Adam wanted it. The situation I was imagining was John peer-pressuring him into drinking. [G laughs] Obviously, if Adam was interested in starting to try drinking, it is more responsible to do it with your parents there. I just forgot that 15 year olds want to drink. [G: Yeah.] Or wasn't aware? But now I am. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Well, they look into the distance, and there's a house with a chimney, and it is going. Chimneys are so fun! I wish to see a chimney in real life at some point. [C laughs] I do!

C: It’ll happen for you one day. I believe in you.

G: Yeah. The fireplace thing is fun. There's just a hole in the wall where fire happens? Good for the wall, I suppose! [C laughs] So as they go forward, they're sneaking around, they see a window, and there's a person in there who is a demon, so it has black eyes, which- it is fascinating that like, the way they do it here is the demon just has black eyes all the time.

C: Yeah, like, no one thinks that’s weird?

G: Yeah, no one thinks that’s weird. Well, first of all, it's mostly civilians who are doing the everything. So yeah. [C: Yeah.] But I mean, there are five hunters here, and they’re still like, “I dunno.” Sam says, “Demons don’t get cold. Makes you wonder what they're burning.” And later on you figure out that these are not demons, so they literally are just trying to stay warm. Suddenly, Ellen gets grabbed and attacked, and the person attacking her is Jo, except she has demon eye. Jo is saying like, “Give me my mom back, you black-eyed bitch! You evil skank!” And Ellen is looking at this like, “Oh, don't you hurt her, don't you-” Aw! I did feel emotional about Ellen and Jo. And they're going to die this season! [C: They sure are.] It’s so miserable, I know we see a lot of them, but we see nothing of them. And then they're gonna be dead. [C: Yeah. yeah. It is how it is.] You see more of them than we do other characters in Supernatural of this caliber. That's true. We also see nothing of them, so.

C: Mm. Mm. Yeah, people really like Jo, so I thought she would be in more episodes of the show. [G: Yeah.] But yeah. Sad.

G: Who else do you think of as people really in the show?

C: Like, side characters that people really like? [G: Yeah.] I guess Charlie.

G: Charlie. So Jo, Charlie…I would say Rowena is very beloved. I don’t think-

C: Yeah. I mean, Eileen, obviously, but Eileen’s a main character to me, she’s the fifth main character to me.

G: And Rowena is a main character to me. Charlie was a main character, I should say. [C: Really?] I mean, we're going fast and loose with the definition of “main character” right now. But yeah, she was present enough. She was in 7 to 10, that's substantial. And, you know, Rowena literally- I don’t think I've ever met a single person who's watched Supernatural with the Rowena story since Season 10 and not liked Rowena. Like, Rowena, is, I think, one of the most universally-beloved characters in that everybody who knows who likes her. [C: Yeah.] I miss Rowena! Anyway, Ellen was able to escape, but Sam wasn't, and he got hit over the head. And it's Rufus. He's in there also. Well, Sam wakes up. He's in the fucking house. There's a fireplace. [laughs] I love a fireplace. Well, Rufus has tied him up and is now talking to him like, "Ah, you're not going to get out of those, you're stuck there," and then, you know, Jo pours holy water at Sam, except it doesn't sizzle. Pours salt into Sam's mouth- like, both of them, they pour salt into Sam's mouth, doesn't matter. Rufus is trying to exorcise Sam, didn't work. And Sam is like- I was a little bit annoyed about Sam's communication strategy this episode. He's like, "Noo, listen to me! Listen to me! Listen!"

C: Like, they can hear you already. Just say the sentences.

G: Just say, "I'm not a demon. It's War."

C: He does say that later.

G: Yeah, but like, he was still like, "I'm not a demon. Please believe, please listen to me." Like, you can just explain. "I'm not a demon. I don't think anyone's a demon. I think we are hallucinating that other people are demons because I think you're a demon. You have black eyes to me." Like, that is so straightforward.

C: Yeah, it's not like he's being tortured that much. Like, it's just so water and salt. I don't know.

G: I mean, the salt is probably pretty bad.

C: Yeah, I guess one could try to Doylist by being like- or, not Doylist it. Whichever one it- [G: Watsonian?] Watsonian it by being like, "Oh, but Sam feels so guilty about the Lucifer thing [G laughs] that it's hard for him to try to ask for mercy from people he feels he failed."

G: No, there was a part here when you know, when Rufus was saying like, "Oh, you evil evil," and I was like, "What? Does Sam think here that they're doing this-"

C: Yeah, does Sam think that Bobby told Rufus about Lucifer, and Rufus is just taking it out on him? Yeah.

G: And it's like, Ellen was a bit odd with Sam, so I think that is a reasonable sense of like, "Oh, maybe Jo, Ellen, and Rufus know-"

C: But clearly, Ellen doesn't know. She asked if there was a girl, and Sam deliberately hides from her that it was because of Lucifer. He's just like, "Oh, you know, regular stresses of the job."

G: Yeah. Well, I did think that like, "Maybe Sam thinks that Rufus is mad at him."

C: He could think that Rufus knows,'cause he and Bobby are besties. Worsties. Everything in between.

G: Yeah, maybe the demon that possessed Bobby called Rufus first. [C: Yeah.] To gossip, even. And to reconcile and to undivorce. [C: Mm-hm.]

G: So Ellen comes ,back and she is, you know, devastated. Obviously, Sam's not with her. And Dean is like, "Oh, no!" [C laughs] And she just sits down. She doesn't say anything. And Dean starts heading out to like, go look for Sam, but then he changes his mind. And he's like, "Okay, I need to actually save these people instead of prioritizing Sam." And later, we understand that a part of this is like, "But of course Sam is in trouble. But also, like, Sam is with the demons." [C: What?] And also, he does say later, "I spent more time worrying about you than the actual case." So yeah. This is Dean choosing to- It's just an odd like, leap. [C: Like a new thing.] Like, I don't think that this like- when I first watched this, I didn't think that was a- Well, I didn't think 1) that it was like, specifically because Sam is around demons, and 2) [C: Yeah, I didn't think that either.] that it's any different from how they have acted before. [C: "Croatoan."] Literally, in "Croatoan," Dean was just like, "Okay, let's just double suicide." Like, okay! I don't know.

C: He's acting like this is a new thing. [G: You've always been like this, Dean!] It's not. In fact, it's less of a thing now, because [G: He stopped himself!] you're able to recognize the feeling for what it is and then focus on saving the civilians. You're actually in a better place regarding hunting and saving people and not worrying about Sam. Like, come on, man. Also, what do you mean it's because Sam's around demons that-

G: That's what he says later!

C: Really? What did he say?

G: He's like, "I spent more time worrying about you because of this thing than whatever."

C: Did he say "because of this thing"?

G: But it's assumed. Because Sam was like, "I'm leaving because of the demon blood."

C: "I spent more time worrying about you than doing the job right." [G: And he's more worried about Sam-] It could be just a general worry.

G: Okay, here's the thing. It is a general worry. But I don't think- Again, like, the Supernatural characters are not good at figuring out what the fuck they're feeling and why, so, [laughs] he's thinking now- he's attributing the worry for Sam now, as like, specifically because of the demon blood instead of how he has lived his entire life so far.

C: Yeah. I feel like before we got to that end part, when I saw this scene, and Dean decided to go back, like, I was like, "Are they showing that Dean doesn't love Sam as much anymore?" [G laughs] [G: No!] Because it's like, literally normal for Dean to like, ditch everybody and go after Sam. So like, this is like, the deliberate not ditching everyone and going after Sam. I was like, "Is it like, he doesn't care about Sam's life that much anymore?"

G: Yeah, but no, I read it immediately, as like, "This is self-sacrificial, because he's putting the many strangers versus his family."

C: Yeah. But I guess just because they they haven't really set up Dean's arc regarding saving people well enough that it was clear what they were going for until the end, when Dean narrativizes it.

G: Yeah. You know, it's crazy, because pretty much I think most of Supernatural, we've had similar opinions in everything. [C: Mm.] And I think halfway through Season 4 is when the divide has started happening on how we are with things. But yeah. [C laughs] I think because so much of Supernatural, well, first of all, it's so long. It's so arduous. You will pick and choose what you remember, just fundamentally. It's just how memories work. So like, what you gain from in the past episodes is gonna be handpicked by what stuck out to you, and different things stick out to different people. [C: Yeah.] This is, you know, like, in SPN Tumblr, there's like, an argument about the same thing every two months, right? [laughs] Just like Sam and Dean in the ideal universe where they only speak each other every two months. But yeah, every two months, same argument. And it's like, "Oh, we should finally decide once and for all." And it's like, well, you should never. [C: Yeah.] Because the whole point is that it's different every time, and you can make literally any single argument, and like, you can probably make a case for it as long as you argue it enough, and that's the fun of it!

C: Yeah, there's a passage you reblogged where Sam calls Dean a genius [G: Yeah.], and the point is that, "Sam doesn't think Dean is stupid! Why are we still having this argument!" Well, [G, laughing: Yeah!] it's because in other episodes, Sam does look surprised when Dean says he's read a book. [G, laughing: Literally!] Like, both of these things are true. The show just contradicts itself.

G: If a different person made a post of like, "And Sam does think Dean is stupid!" I'll reblog that too and be like, "Literally." [C laughing]

C: Yeah, like, there's dialogue of Sam thinking Dean is stupid and dialogue of Sam thinking Dean is smart. And honestly, when I saw that passage where he calls Dean a genius, I was like, "OOC." [G laughing] So.

G: Yeah, exactly. Sam should act exactly like that one fanfiction [C laughing] that we- I think you read to me and I insulted, and then we deleted, or maybe we kept it in. I'm not sure.

C: No, I think we kept it in, [G laughs] which I feel kind of bad about, because I thought we had a rule that we weren't gonna insult fanwork directly in like, Spotify episodes. [G laughs]

G: Well, it is what it is. So it be, so it is, even.

So like, Sam is still in the basement. Or, I don't know. I think he's in the living room. So Sam is still with, you know, Jo and Rufus. And the two other hunters are like, talking about, "Okay, so what's actually happening? Why is nothing working? What kind of demons are this? I don't know." And Sam is doing his like, "No, pleasee! Listen! Something's not right! Please!" It's so annoying. [C: Yeah.] Sam, just fucking dictate your thought process. "Just listen to me!" [laughs] Like, okay. And if they say no, will you just shut up? Like, what's happening?

C: Like, "Okay, I guess just keep going, then. Whoops! Sowwy!"

G: "Just keep force-feeding me salt"? Like, hello?

C: "Aziraphaleeee! Aziraphale, something's wrong with the ball! Aziraphale, we need to talk!"

G: [laughing] Literally! Literally, that's what Sam is doing. He saw Good Omens Season 2 and was like, "This is a terrible season! I'm gonna recreate it beat-for-beat." [both laugh]

C: And oh, well, I guess the important thing in that scene is that he sees Roger, who was one of the survivors in the church, as well, in the house.

G: Oh, yeah, and he sees him twist his ring or whatever.

C: Well, yeah. We see him like, behind the door. He makes like, a little "shh" sound at Sam, and then twists his ring, yeah. And that's- I think that's when Rufus and Jo more strongly see Sam with black eyes again, or some shit. [G: Yeah.]

C: Back in church, Dean and Ellen are strategizing. Ellen says, like, you know, "One of the demons is in Jo, and we have to get it out without hurting her." And then she goes, "It called me a bitch." And Dean goes, "Bruise a little easy, don't you think?" [both laughing] Shut the fuck up! Like, shut the fuck up, Dean!

G: Dean is so annoying! [laughs]

C: He's so annoying! Imagine this. "I'm worried about my [both] daughter, [G: "She called me-" yeah.] she's possessed by a demon, and if we try to get it out, we could end up killing her, [G: God.] and she's the only person I have left after Ash died, and after my husband died, and I didn't want her to come on this hunt anyway, 'cause I've wanted her to stay safe, but now we're in the Apocalypse, and now that's not an option anymore. And I failed my duty to keep her safe." And like, even if she literally was just hurt by a demon in her daughter's body calling her a bitch, [G: Yeah.] I think that makes sense. It's like, "Jo would never do that, and that like, hurt to hear that out of her mouth."

G: Yeah! And it's like, it's not- like, okay, let's pretend that this is not a demon- like, "black-eyed bitch" is actually what she's talking about. It's just, as you said, like, "Oh, Jo just called her a bitch." Like, you can read between the lines, Dean! Obviously, that's not the main concern here. Like, obviously, the main concern is "Jo is possessed," and this is like, a roundabout way of talking around it. Of like, trying to trying to express, like, "It's so fucked up" without explicitly saying that. And like, Dean-

C: Yeah, "Seeing like, Jo not herself was really disturbing to me or whatever." [G: Yeah.] And Dean's just like, "PC culture has gone too far!" [G laughing]

G: "This is the future leftists want!" or whatever, yeah.

C: "Of course you have blond hair and pronouns," like, [G laughs] god.

G: I mean, it's because the only way Dean knows how to communicate is to 1) not communicate or 2) look directly into the camera and say everything he's feeling and all the themes and motifs. And this is where we are now. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, yeah. And it's just like, "Bitch is just a normal word, Ellen! Like, I just say that. [both laughing] Like, why do you have an issue with what I say, Ellen?" Like, shut up! [G laughs] Whateber. [G: Whateber.] Yeah, so Ellen goes like, "No, that's not what I meant. It called me a black-eyed bitch. Like, this is some weird kind of demon where like, the holy water and the salt doesn't work, and Jo's like- she has an anti-possession charm. This is not a typical demon possession case." Dean is like, "The only thing I can think of to do is call Bobby or Sam." And Ellen says, "Well, all you got's me-"

G: Why didn't they call Bobby? There's no lines?

C: Yeah, Sam says that there's no signal when they come to the town. [G: Okay.] But yeah, like, if they could call Bobby, I'm sure there's lore that he could pick up. [G: Yeah.] Ellen says, "All you got's me and all I got's you. So let's figure it out." And so apparently, the omen that Rufus came to town about was something happened with water. Apparently, the rain polluted the entire river. And then another weird thing that happened is that there was a shooting star that was really big last Wednesday. And like, 'cause I haven't seen this episode, I was like, "Oh my god! Is an angel doing all this. Like, was the shooting star a fallen angel? Is the pregnant woman pregnant with an angel fetus? [G laughs] What's happening?"

G: She was pregnant for one week.

C: The last shooting star was like, Anna's conception, or whatever, right? [G: Yeah.] But yeah, no, there was no evil angel fetus inside of the pregnant woman causing everyone to think that they were demons. [G: Hell yeah.] Sad! Yeah, we'll save that shit for Season 13 or whatevs. There's a nephilim in Season 12. I don't remember.

G: Season 12 is when Kelly is pregnant.

C: "Lily Sunder"? Oh, yeah, that too.

G: And "Lily Sunder" is there too. Ahh! Weh! Yeah, anyway, let's proceed.

C: Yeah, when we're 50 years old [G laughs], we'll get to watch it [G: Exactly.] So Dean pulls out a Bible, and he finds a passage from Revelation that goes, "And there fell a great star from Heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell upon the river, and the name of the star was Wormwood, and many men died." These omens are preludes to the Four Horsemen. And then Dean asks which one rides the red horse, and the pastor says "War." Because apparently, when they were coming in, I did not notice this at all, but there was like, a really nice, untouched red car on Main Street. So Dean puts it all together, and he's like, "Well, if War is a dude and he's here, maybe he's messing with our heads." War is not a dude. War goes by the name Carmine Zuigiber, and she's a war correspondent for World Weekly News, and she's incredibly misogynistic and misogynistically written. [G laughing] I don't know who the fuck this guy is. [G: Yeah.] "So everyone in the town thinks the other side is demons, and we're all just killing each other." Yep. And while all is happening, the pastor, who's in the church, at the end, he goes, "Wait. Back up. It's the Apocalypse?!" And Dean goes, "Sorry, padre." And that's that scene. They really don't do much about Sam learning that he killed two teenagers for real.

G: Yeah, like, I was thinking about like, "How is this town gonna fucking recover?" There's like, first of all, there's like, seven of them left. [laughs] [C: Yes.] And all of them have killed each other, so. [C: Yes.] And you can't even be like, "I was possessed, and they were possessed," like, they weren't. That must be so horrible.

C: Yeah. Yeah, it must be, indeed. And also, the bridge is fucked. How are they gonna get- I mean, I guess they're getting out by like, walking across it and then finding a car elsewhere. But yeah, it's gonna be a while before they can get therapy. [G: Yeah.]

C: So now we're back to Sam, tied up. The Roger guy, the guy who's there earlier, he comes in, and Sam asks, "Who the hell are you?" In the same way that just the Seven Deadly Sins being just some guy was incredibly boring, this guy is also like, boring as fuck.

G: Yeah. I mean, okay, what are the four?

C: I mean, later, Famine is a little more fun. [G: Famine is interesting.] War, Famine, [G: Pestilence.] Death, and Pestilence.

G: Death, of course, is a very iconic Supernatural character. [C: Yes.] Pestilence, it's probably the episode where Cas was like, "I took a bus," which is the only thing I remember from it, [C laughs] so, I don't know, i's probably not that- like, Pestilence himself is probably not that prominent. Famine is the burger episode. [C: Yes.] Yeah, that's it, I suppose. [C: Yeah.] Cas! I'm thinking about Cas eating that burger and the implications. Well, anyway.

C: Real. The shrimplications, even. [G: Exactly.] 3.01, he had to have seen all the reviews that were like, "It was fucking boring to make the deadly sins like, just some random person." And then Eric Kripke as showrunner was still like, "I think let's make the Four Horsemen just some person, and also not even give them fun costumes." Like, okay.

G: Well, I mean, first of all, Supernatural has never given anyone a fun costume ever. [C: Yeah.] Number two, I do think that having War specifically be just a random cocky guy, appropriate. [C: Sure.] Versus, say, Pestilence and Famine, who are more distinct, more different.

C: Okay. Alright, alright. I guess I'll hold off judgment until I see the other ones. Fine.

G: I mean, the other ones are also not that impressive, unless you're talking about Death.

C: Okay, I am judging right now, [G laughs] it's bad. [G: Exactly.] So yeah, he's just this random cocky guy. He goes like, "Oh, yeah, you caught me. I popped in to watch. I can hustle like that." He does like, a little wheels turning dance thing when he says "I could hustle like that." I'm not sure exactly what this is. So he took over the countenance of real Roger, who is dead. And Sam asks again, "Who are you?" And he says, "Here's a hint. I was in Germany, then in Germany, then in the Middle East. I was in Darfur when my beeper went off." Okay, so they're saying that this guy did Nazis? Like, that's what they're going for? Huh. Okay. And then, okay, he starts with Germany, right? So it's like, "I'm like, in the country where the bad guys are." [G: Yeah.] [G laughs] And then he's like, "I was in the Middle East." And then Darfur, in 2009, faced several airstrikes by Israel. So that's- I guess Supernatural is taking a side in these more recent conflicts that make sense for Supernatural. Cool. Like, you need two sides to fight the war! [laughs]

G: I think maybe like, where it's happening. But also, it wasn't [C: It wasn't only happening in Germany!]- World War I and II are not like, Germany-specific wars.

C: It was the world, it was happening in the world.

G: So I don't know.

C: So it seems like what he does is get people angry and want to fight each other. So he's saying, "I created the Nazis to make them want to fight other people."

G: It is fascinating that they do not say anything about Vietnam in this, I feel, in this section. [C: Right, yeah. This is true.] Given that I feel like a lot of the audience they want are gonna be more familiar with that. Well, I mean, it is 2009, so there were a lot more like, current, ongoing stuff at that time.

C: Yeah, yeah. I suppose so. The thing is, okay. So you're saying that when it wasn't the Apocalypse, you did the Nazis, and now, when it is the Apocalypse, you're [G: Going to a fuck-ass town?] just going to make a town of twenty people kill each other? [G laughing] Like, let's just have it be the Apocalypse, then. I think this is better.

G: Yeah. Like, why are you here? Why are you here?

C: Like, let's just do the Apocalypse all the time, forever, 'cause that's not World War II. What the Apocalypse is is twenty people killing each other. I can let that happen. [laughs] Like, it's not great, but it is better than World War II. Sam goes, "I know who you are." Like, bro. [G laughs] Like, this is like Quiz Bowl when you get to the last possible like, part, where it's obvious, and anyone should be able to buzz in. Like, you don't even need to say, "I know who you are." You did not succeed at anything by figuring this out this late, Sam. So Sam realizes that there's no demons, and War is just like, "No, I just set all this up. And you know, this just really shows that, like, humans are vicious and evil." And Sam goes, "No, you're doing this." And then War's argument- War's argument. [G: Yeah.] Let's dissect. What he says is, "Last week, everyone was good. This week, they're killing each other... after I did things. This proves that you always wanted to kill each other." Like, no?

G: [laughing] And then he goes, "You've seen the Irish. They're all Irish," which is like- [laughs] [C: Like, okay, girl.] No, I mean, the thing is, this is a villain. So this is not supposed to be, whatever. Like, a good stance.

C: But I think we are supposed to think that it is a good stance.

G: But also, like, Supernatural does not do anything to refute it, and also, they make the exact same argument in 3.01, right? [C: Oh, yeah.] That people are just fundamentally bad.

C: "People are all secretly evil." No, I have that speech written down. What they say in 3.01 is, "And you call us sins. We're not sins, man. We are natural human instinct. [G laughins] And you can repress and deny us all you want, but the truth is, you are just animals. Horny, greedy, hungry, violent animals." This is like- [G: The exact same one.] they just took these ones and put them into Chat-GPT and asked it to summarize.

G: No, it's like, the thing is like, it is trying to make us believe that this is a reasonable thing [C: Stance.] for War to say and a reasonable stance to say, and it's like, "Well, it's not." [laughs] Like, you were there, and that's the reason why they're killing each other.

C: Yeah. He literally says, "They were fine last week. Then I did something. Now they're killing each other. This proves that they always wanted to kill each other." No, it doesn't! Like, you are getting thrown out of any journal you even think to publish in, sir!

G: Like, he was like, "I've just removed inhibitions," and the inhibitions were there.

C: The inhibitions were like, making you hallucinate? [laughs]

G: [laughs] Yeah. Also like, the concept of like, "The most true human self is a self without inhibition-"

C: "- that sees other people as having demon eyes." Like, I don't know if that's the case.

G: Also, like, inhibition is also human instinct! [laughs] Like, it's also part of your psyche, [C: Yeah.] of your human self. Like, okay. [C: What the fuck ever.] It is one of those things where it's like, Supernatural has a terrible stance on everything, [C: Yes.] so like, even when they're trying to purposefully have a terrible stance, it like, completely misreads everything, and even think they're purposely trying to have a terrible stance in this scene.

C: Yeah, I think they're like, "This is War saying the hard truths."

G: Yeah. [laughs] And it's like, the truth is not true, and also, very soft, so.

C: Yeah, this is War saying the soft lies. [G laughs] [G: Exactly.] Yeah, it's dumb. It's schewpid. Sam is like, "I'm gonna kill you myself." And then War says, "That's adorable, considering you're my poster boy."

G: Poster boy for War?

C: And then goes on to say things that are completely unrelated to War.

G: Yeah! But what he's saying is like, lust for power, whatever.

C: He's like, "You want to do drugs because it feels good." Like, what?

G: He's saying like, it's a slippery slope, blah blah blah.

C: Sam has never gone out of his way to be extra violent so he can drink blood.

G: Yeah. And also like, I was thinking of like, "You're my poster boy." What the fuck? First of all, um, no. [both laugh] That's all my input is in that statement.

C: First of all, I know who's smashing his phone every two months during the Zoom call, and it's not Sam Winchester.

G: And that also is just removed from war! Why are they- I don't know.

C: It seems like what he thinks war is is like-

G: People fighting.

C: First he's saying that it's like, fighting people-

G: And being hater, which like, okay. [laughs]

C: Being a hater. [laughing] I don't think- There's like, an organizational [G: Yeah.] aspect to it. Like, wanting blood?

G: Lust for power? You can have lust for many things without war.

C: Yeah, yeah. I agree. So, what the fuck ever, man. I don't know. He just- yeah. He loves to make connections that don't make sense. He's selecting all the red herrings on the NYT Games.

G: It's just so irritating to me when people paint war as something unavoidable because it's human nature, and it's like, [C: Yeah.] it's unavoidable because we have set up our society this way. Like, those are completely different things, you know? And like, just making it a human thing completely ignores all the historical, political, everything context. [C: Yes.] And like, this is what War here is doing. It's like, "Oh, it's not about the history, or the political or the whatever anything. It's solely about people wanting violence." And like, well, one, it's not. And two, like, you're War. You're supposed to have more interest in this. Why is your analysis of the situation so like, stupid? [C, laughing: Yeah.] Like, have some complexity, dude! This is your job. [C: Yeah, exactly.] Like, I feel like if I'm an evil, evil entity who's supposed to represent War, right? I would like, take glee and satisfaction about like, war being something formulated, you know? Like, it's a domino effect-

C: Yeah, "I did such a good job. [G: Yeah.] I did this to the economy here, which caused them to need to do this."

G: Yeah. But here, it's like, "And I didn't even do anything! It's just people are doing it." It's like, how is this fun for you? [C: Yeah.] This is your job, and you're bad at it? Is that what you're saying? [C laughs]

C: Yeah, I think that is what he's saying. [G: Stupid as fuck.] So when War calls Sam his poster boy, Sam goes, "What's that supposed to mean?" Which like, real. What is it supposed to mean?" And War is just like, "You can't stop thinking about it. Ever since you saw it dripping off the blade of that knife." Blood is not just- blood is not an automatic War stuff. Blood can be Pestilence stuff. I mean, I would call like, addiction a medical thing, so that is probably more Pestilence-y than War-y. [G: Yeah.] So whateber. Yeah, Sam says, "You're wrong," and War says, "Save your protests for your brother. I can see inside your head, and it's a one track, city of blood, blood, blood. Lust for power. You want to be strong again, but not just strong. Stronger than everybody. Good intentions, quick slide to Hell, buddy-boy. You feel bad now? Wait 'til you're thigh-deep in warm corpses. Because I'm just getting started." Okay, so he's saying that Sam, wanting to be more powerful than everything else, will eventually lead to him being thigh-deep in warm corpses? [G: Yeah.] Okay. Like, of who? [laughs] [G: I don't know.] Like, who has Sam killed? Like, no one. [G: Literally.] Besides monsters that Supernatural says it's okay to kill. And, I guess, two real teenagers. [laughs] But Sam does not really react to that this episode. I feel like if we wanted to dig deeper into the "I can't trust myself shit," I think that "I feel really guilty about killing two teenagers" thing could come up.

G: I think here, Sam does think he started the Apocalypse, so casualties from that can be counted as his. Except it's not, Sam. So don't think like that. [laughs]

C: Yeah. But okay, I guess he thinks that. Whateber. [G: Whateber!] Okay, so okay. Sam wants power, and he wants to be stronger than everybody else, and currently he thinks good intentions are so that he can save more people, but it is actually because it felt good. That is where Sam's at, and that's what War is helping him realize right now, I guess. [G: Yeah.] Yes? Okay. Why not? I don't have any reason to not think that's true, I suppose. Mostly, I think that this scene doesn't work that much as a "Sam, you're secretly evil," just because the whole time Sam's looking up with, like, his sad, wet eyes, with still like, salt crusted around his mouth. [both laugh] He looks like "mommy, I frew up."

G: [laughs] He literally does!

C: Okay, if this is the case, sure. And then War is like, "Okay, time to put on a show," and he twists his ring to make blood come out of his head, and then he like falls to the ground and starts screaming, and he's like, "Oh my god! Like, Sam hurt me! And he said all the demons are coming to kill us!" And, you know, Rufus, and Jo hear all this, and then they slap Sam, and are like, "We gotta go kill everyone. Whoo!"

G: Anyway, in the church, War comes in and is like, "Hi, guys!" Well, he doesn't say that, I guess. [laughs] He should have. But yeah, he tells them that, "Yeah, the demons. I saw them. It's horrible! They're going to attack us. They're gonna kill all of us." And Dean, who has been saying that like, there's no actual demons, and thought like, he was organizing everyone, obviously suspicious. But War just keeps on pushing. And then, when he realizes that "Oh, I can't trick Dean," he just twists his finger. Ring. [laughs] He twists his ring. [C laughs] He twists his ring. And, you know, everybody starts seeing Dean and Ellen as demons. Sad! Or is it. [C: Sad.] The people in the church start packing up like, guns and knives and everything. [C: Yeah, and not salt rounds.] Yeah, like, for real guns. In the house where Sam is in, Rufus and Jo are also organizing a preparation for the demons who are- they think are about to come. And what they have done is they've been tying pipe bombs to like, the window panes.

C: I guess the windows for if they break the glass to get in.

G: Yeah. Jo says, "Rufus, pipe bombs won't kill a demon," and Rufus says, "Yeah, but in my experience, demons come at you slower if they're in a body with no limbs."

C: He is pretty cool. Like, he could definitely be the main character of an action movie. [G: Yeah.] But unfortunately, he is in a situation where this is going to hurt people.

G: Yeah. Jo, of course, upset because well, "It could be Ellen. Could be my mom." But Rufus reassures her, etc. etc. And we start like, the fight scene of this episode, where Ellen and Dean come in. Ellen and Jo areattacking each other, and Ellen is trying to convince Jo that, like, she's actually Ellen, and Rufus and Dean are doing the exact same thing. And we focus more on the Rufus-Dean side. [C: Yeah, which is not the one we're interested in.] Which makes me sad, yeah. They don't even have that much of a connection. Like, who give a shit? The visuals, though of like, every single POV shot where they're looking at someone and they have the demon eyes is pretty good, I think. I really like those. But yeah, finally, Dean was able to convince Rufus, and it's like, "Wow. I am hallucinating, and it is the Horseman of War." And Rufus says, "Did you figure this all out by yourself, genius?" which is so "Rebel Just for Kicks" of Dean. [laughs]

C: True, yeah. I thought it was fun. 'Cause it's like, a "Oh, shit, like, I guess I did some bad things and killed some real people. But like, I'm not really gonna grapple with that right now, so I'm just gonna make a snarky remark, and we'll just know that I feel bad about this." Yeah. He and Bobby are quite perfect for each other.

So Dean, Rufus, Ellen, Jo, they all meet back up, they're all on the same page, and they're like, "Okay, we have to find War before everyone in this town kills each other." But at this point, all the church survivors are already shooting at the house. The windows are exploding. Other people in the house are like, shooting at people outside. It's all very chaotic. Ellen gives Jo a gun. Dean runs upstairs to get Sam. When Dean goes in, Sam goes, "Dean, it's not demons," and they say, at the same time, "It's War." Sam says he's doing it through his magical ring. Dean says he turned it right before he made everyone hallucinate and go "hellbitch." Interesting word. Os bitch like, a gender neutral term for Dean now?

G: [laughs] That's why he was like, "Ellen, bruise so easy, everybody's a bitch! [both laugh] It's fine!"

C: "I'm a bitch, you're a bitch, like, come on!" Yeah, Rufus tells everyone to stop shooting, and he has to knock out some of the people in the house who aren't listening to him. The pastor gets shot. Ellen, outside, helps this young woman try to put pressure on the wound properly or CPR him or something and tries to explain to the woman that she's not a demon, but she gets attacked by the guy who was a soldier.

G: Yeah, and it's very long. He's about to shoot her, and it's like-

C: "Oh my god, there's no bullets," and he pulls out a knife-

G: Why is there no bullets?

C: I think he just ran out.

G: [laughs] I was like, they make a whole point of this guy being good with guns, and he didn't even load this gun properly. Like, okay.

C: Yeah. He pulls out a knife and like, it's like, about to slit her throat, whatever. War's about to head out of town, and then Sam and Dean run up to him. They grab him. War's like, "You can't kill War!" And Dean goes, "We know." And then Sam slams his hand against the car and then cuts off a bunch of his fingers so that the ring falls off. Austin sort of comes to- that's the soldier guy. He comes to, realizes that Ellen's not a demon. Everyone just sort of stops and stands there feeling very bad about the things that they've done.

G: First of all, how did he realize that Ellen wasn't a demon anymore?

C: Just 'cause the eyes, but also, it's like, well, maybe she's just hiding them. Like, we don't know.

G: Yeah, like, you don't know that. It's not like, there's any visible, like, "Oh, and a demon escaped this body" or whatever. But whatever. The whole point they're trying to make is the influence, blah blah blah, if you clear the mind and blah blah- I don't fucking know.

C: Well, that isn't the point that they're trying to make, though! 'Cause they're saying everyone secretly wanted to murder each other anyway! [both laugh]

G: But like, here, what I'm actually thinking is like, "Well, even if you remove the source of all that violence now, because it has already happened, and those thoughts have already been implanted, it will just continue and continue." But no, they're like, "No, but it will really stop." [C laughs] And it's like, well. [C: Yeah, which is quite funny.] [laughing] What is the ideological stand that we're trying to make here?

C: The only thing causing them to kill each other was the black eyes, so like, what's up then? [G laughs]

G: Iconic. And by iconic, I mean, pretty bad! [C: Horrible, yeah.] [C laughs]

C: Yeah, quite lackluster. So Dean picks up the ring, and War leaves.

G: Yeah. Well, War doesn't leave. War's gone. And so is the car. So sad.

G: Now, they're at a picnic table, and it is a nice scenery. It's like. I think there's a lake. There's mountains. It's grassy. And all the like, far shots of them, they're at the corner of the frame, which I really did like. Or at the side of the frame, I should say. Yeah, Dean is making a Lord of the Rings joke, but Sam's like, "Okay, I'm gonna deliver my speech." At first, Dean actually tries to stop him, but Sam just goes, "No, actually. It's time to speak." And he says, "I know you don't trust me. Just now, I realized something. I don't trust me either." Again, this is- I don't wanna make fun of [laughs] Sam's delivery of like, this episode.

C: Sam's a healthy person trying to take charge of his life!

G: No, I understand. I understand. It's, the delivery is bad. [laughs]

C: Mm. I didn't notice any acting issues with this scene.

G: I don't know. Again, like, I kept on trying to tell myself like, it's bad acting because it's like, when you're saying something that you rehearsed for a long time. It's like, okay. But it also is a bit jarring. Or jareding. [laughs] Bad joke, [C laughs] it's just jarring. [C: Real.] Yeah, he says that "When I saw that blood, it's all I've been thinking about. And I tell myself it's for the right reasons, my intentions are good, and it feels true. But I think, underneath, I just missed the feeling. I know how messed-up that sounds, which means I know how messed up I am." It's literally fine!

C: Yeah! Like, I don't- "It sounds so messed up that I missed the feeling," [G: No it's doesn't!] like, no, that's like, normal. [G: That's normal. It's normal!] It sounds normal. Like, I was surprised if you were like, "I don't miss the feeling." [G: Yeah!] Sam wants to be a normal person so bad, but also his idea of what a normal person is so abnormal. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] It's like, a person on the TV who's normal and not a real person who's normal.

G: Yeah, He says, "The problem's not the demon blood. What I did, I can't blame the blood or Ruby or anything. The problem is me!" Literally also untrue, I think. "How far I'll go-"

C: What does he mean by- Okay, what is "What I did"? Raising Lucifer?

G: Yeah, I suppose, and it's like, who cares? [laughing] I understand that that's a big deal, but also, who give a shit, Sam?

C: [laughing] The problem's not you! And also, "I can't blame the blood or Ruby or anything." [G: Those are the reasons.] I think you can blame Ruby and the angels! [G: Those literally are the reasons.] Those are the people you can blame.

G: "There's something in me that scares the hell out of me." I understand that. It's probably true. Like, there is probably something in here that scares the hell out of him.

C: Yeah, no. But when he goes, "The problem's me. How far I'll go." I literally paused and screamed, "How far you'll go to save the world??" [laughs] [G: Yeah, I don't know.] Like, I think that is fine. And I know we're just supposed to operate based off of the like, "Everyone in Supernatural knows already that drinking demon blood is crossing a line, so like, the fact that Sam was willing to do such an evil and fucked-up thing to save the world shows that there's something wrong with him." But like, I don't believe it. So it's not working for me.

G: Yeah. And Sam is still doing his speech. Like, "The last couple of days, I caught a glimpse," [laughs] and Dean was just like, "Can we get a fucking thesis statement? [C laughs] What's happening here?" And Sam says, "I'm in no shape to be hunting. I need to step back, 'cause I'm dangerous. Maybe it's best we just go our separate ways."

C: What has Sam done that is dangerous in the last two episodes?

G: You're saying "dangerous"- I think you're interpreting "dangerous" as "dangerous to other people." [C: Yeah.] I think I'm interpreting it as "I'm in danger of drinking demon blood again," which is "a danger to myself."

C: You don't say dangerous to talk about danger to yourself!

G: No, I think you do.

C: Do people go, "I'm dangerous. I sit alone in my house and drink more alcohol than I should." [G: Ah, okay.] Is that what people say?

G: Okay, yeah yeah yeah, I get what you mean. Huh. Well, I suppose so. Well, who has he endangered? Absolutely no one, I think.

C: Nobody. Not a person. [laughs] None of them. He killed those teenagers, but that was on War.

G: Here's the thing. If he brought up the fact that like, the teenagers didn't even do the demon buzz.

C: Yeah, yeah, if he was like, "I should have noticed, when I stabbed them, that there wasn't an electric thing, but I was so focused on the blood that I could have figured this War thing out earlier." Like, okay.

G: If he was like, "Oh, this one distracted me like that, what more the other future cases?" Like, okay, fine. Reasonable. It's just, they completely ignorant it, and I think it's a very interesting thing that they do that they just completely ignore. [C: Yeah.] Dean says, "Okay. I think you're right." And yeah, Sam says, like, "I thought we were gonna fight." But Dean says, "Well, the truth is, I spend more than worrying about you than doing the job right. And I just, I can't afford that, you know? Not now." And yeah, Sam says, "I'm sorry, Dean." And Dean says, "I know you are, Sam." And Sam stands up, and it is- I love the shot. Again, I love this scene, like, the look of the scene and the shot where Sam stands up. And then he's he's like, halfway out of the chair, and Dean says, "Hey, do you wanna take the Impala?" And when I tell you [C: I did care. I did care.] that I started crying [laughs] [C: Aw.] so hard and so raw. It's just, I don't know. I mean, last episode, I even joked, like, "I thought Dean was just leaving, and this is Sam's car too!" [both laugh] And Dean heard me. Sera Gamble from, whatever, 15 or so whatever however many years ago it was that she wrote this was like, "I hear you, Grey BABPod from 15 years or so in the future." [C: Yeah.] Dean's gonna acknowledge that this is Sam's car, too. I don't know. 'Cause it also just isn't a car for them, you know? It's- they grew up here. And most of their time together has been spent here, and now they're gonna be apart, and Dean is offering what is essentially his car to Sam, and that does mean something. His car, their home, you know? Like, "You may need it more than me right now, so do you want to take it?"

C: Yeah, I think it's partly like, [G: Extending.] "I'm going to be worried about you while you're away, and like, it'll feel like there's a piece of me that's still with you and protecting you via Baby." [G: Yeah.] He also lost the Samulet this episode [G: God. Yeah.], so I guess that would make the separation a bit rougher.

G: Yeah. It is like, an extension of an olive branch in a way, right? [C: Yeah.] Like, "Now, we're going to separate here. But I want you to know that I'm not mad at you because I am willing to give you this very- this car that is so important to me," and the whole situation was like, "I don't trust you." "I know you don't trust me." "But hey, I trust you with my car." [C: Yeah, yeah.] And that does mean something to me. [C: To Sam, also.] Yeah, like, Dean is so protective of the Impala, always, always, always, and the fact that here, in a situation- You know, it's just- it means something, and it must mean something to Sam too, because it does take him aback a little. [C: Yeah, yeah.] And he goes, "Take care of yourself, Dean." And I do think that is like, a response to the Impala offer. Yeah. And Dean just watches as Sam gets one singular, almost-empty backpack [laughs] from the backseat of the Impala [C: And a shoulder bag.]- A shoulder bag, too. Well, that's fun. [C: Yeah, it's light brown.] And then hops into-

C: [laughing] A random fucking car. [G laughs]

G: - that is just across them? Like, this dude is hearing everything.

C: Yeah, he doesn't even know this guy. [laughs] What is this? [G: Yeah.] Hitchhiking culture was like, bigger back then. But like, I don't even know if he talked to that guy before getting in!

G: Yeah. And, you know, this guy, he's so near. He's like, probably like, gossiping, overhearing Sam and Dean. And Sam's like, "I don't think- I just can't in the shape to be hunting anymore, like, we must part ways." And the guy's like, "Why is this guy so dramatic about deer-hunting?" [C: "What did he do to his last deer?"] [laughs] Like, okay.

C: Yeah. Though, I mean, I guess I feel like if I was hearing this and hearing someone be that emotional, I would assume that it's like, "I don't trust myself around guns because I'm suicidal" is probably how I would take that conversation.

G: Yeah, that's true. That's true.

G: Well, what did we think about this episode?

C: Well. I didn't really like it. It was whatever.

G: Really? But you seemed to enjoy talking about it. [C: Did I?] Or, I don't know. I enjoyed it, so I assumed you did also. [laughing] [C: I think you enjoyed it.] And I'm projecting, yeah.

C: Like, I watched it. And then, like, I took a shower, and then I called Danica, and she was like, "How was the episode?" And I said, "Of- what? The what? You mean of 'The Bear' that I watched two days ago?" And she was like, "No, the episode of Supernatural you told me you were watching before you showered." And I said, "Oh, I fucking forgot about that." [laughs] So that's how I feel about it.

G: I really- I like this episode. I think, again, like, it reminded me of why I kept on watching Supernatural, so that's something. And I appreciate the character arc that they're doing. I like that we're back to a case episode, even if this is connected to the bigger plot. And I suppose, I like also that we're starting to see how they are incorporating the bigger plot into the case episodes. Which, I mean, I love Season 1. Or do I? [both laugh] But it was like, it was a complaint of the earlier seasons, right, that, like, they will just completely abandon plot to do fuck-all for a couple episodes. [C: Yeah.] And here it's like, we're seeing them intermingle, and it's because the Apocalypse is so big, it's impossible to not have it intermingle with everything, but yeah. [C: Mm-hm.] I appreciate that. Best Line/Worst Line?

C: I mean best line, the Impala one for both of us, I'm assuming.

G: Yeah. Worst line, I would say is War's "Germany, Germany, Germany-" [C: God.] "Germany, Germany," the rest of that. Also, specifically, the "Look at the Irish. They're all Irish." I hated that line so much.

C: Yeah. Like, there's a reason that they're fighting, actually. It's a real thing. But whatever.

G: Yeah. I mean, you can say that about anything. "Look at the people. They're all people."

C: Yeah, it's a real thing most of the time.

G: Like, "Look at all the people. They're all people." Well, I don't know.

C: Why is it national borders [G: Yeah.] the ones that we're granting legitimacy here while also saying, "It's just human nature, and I don't think governments, or like, the economy, or like, any structures are involved in War at all! [G: Yeah.] It's just you guys want to kill each other. And also, wanting to drink blood is the same thing as war!"

G: Yeah. You can look at a blue whale eating like, a million krills in one inhale and go, [C: Yeah, "Oh my god!"] "Look at these organisms. They're all organisms." [C laughing] Like, okay, well, I don't know, man! [C: For real.] Stupid as fuck. Anyway.

C: Stupid as fuck. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you on War's lines being the worst, but I guess to add another worse line, when Dean's like, "Why are you being so sensitive about Jo calling you a bitch?" [G laughing] [G: He is so stupid.] Wait, did Ellen and Jo, did they even get to hug?

G: I'm not sure. I don't think so.

C: I don't think they did 'cause we just saw like, Dean and Rufus's exchange, and then they come out to Jo and Ellen getting ready to hunt. That's so sad!

G: Let's do our spreadsheets. [C: Okay.] I think for misogyny, I don't think-

C: Maybe 1 for the "Bruise easily, don't you?"

G: Maybe 1, yeah. Racism, they don't do anything, this one, do they?

C: I'm not sure where the "Germany, Germany, Middle East, Darfur" falls.

G: Ooh, yeah. I think it does warrant something.

C: I think it's a form of racism, yeah.

G: It is. It is. 2? [laughs] I'll give that a 2.

C: Honestly, yeah, 2. [laughs]

G: Homophobia is 0. Oh my god, we're going to win. What the fuck did we put homophobia for in "Sympathy for the Devil"?

C: Um, [laughing] calling Michael "Cate Blanchett." [both laughing]

G: It's the thing I'm sensitive about!

C: [laughs] Yeah. It's the thing you're sensitive about.

G: Well, so let's do IMDb. What's your guess? I'm assuming-

C: Lower than last episode.

G: Of course, of course. Last episode was 8.7. That's crazy.

C: 8.4.

G: I would say this is an 8.3, actually. [C: Whoa, okay.] And I'm not just saying that to be one lower than you. Like, I generally think that.

C: Okay, yeah, these were your real thoughts before I came into your life.

G: Okay, well, it's an 8.6! You got it this time.

C: I mean, I didn't get it, but I was closer than.

G: Yeah, you're closer, you're closer.

C: Huh. That's quite high. [G: That is quite high.] People like action, I guess, and people would be like, "Oh my god, the twist!" Do you think that's it?

G: You know what? I'm going to bet people are like, "I love a case," 'cause that's how I felt. [C: Okay.] Or "I love Cas," which is true, also. Or "I love Jo and Ellen and Rufus," which is also true.

C: So one said, " The Horseman episodes are the highlight of the season. They really nailed the concept. They got they got the right actors. They got the right cars." [G laughs] [G: Me.] God, typical Supernatural watcher. [G laughing]

G: Literally me, though! Like, they got the right cars. And they literally did. Like, I mean, we did go on that fucking thing about like, "Why does Ruby have an orange car?" and it's like, well, why does she?

C: It was cute. There were stripes on it. That's like, a special car. We have to think about that.

G: I have been thinking of becoming a car person, [C: Yeah.] but I feel like it's such a typical [C: Guy?] "Oh yeah, you're like, a guy, and you're into cars? Good for you." [C laughs] But it's just- the fucking- have I told you about Caravaggio coffee table book? It's a wonder. [C: Yes.] And that store that I buy all my coffee table books from, [C: It has a car book?] They have so many car books. So many. There's like, a Ford one. The last time I went there, there's a Bentley one, a Ford one, and then just cars in general. And it's just, every single time I go, there's a new car book, and it's like, "Well, maybe I should get one." [C: Mm.] But unfortunately, I think it's a bit too much for me. Sorry, Dean. Dean isn't even a car guy! He's a one-car guy. [C: Yeah.] Maybe I should become a one-car guy, also. [C: Sure.]

[laughing] "The brother relationship is great in this but it does highlight how Sam from the beginning has led a more entitled life. [C: What?] Dean is- Dean is going the emotions of extreme betrayal, its not even about breaking the seal--it's about the season long lies and betrayal of Sam consistently putting Ruby ahead of Dean and taking the word of Ruby. [C: Girl.] [C laughs] What makes Dean's reaction so true, is that Sam knows that Ruby is a master manipulating Sam as she did about being able to save Dean. Sam was warned by not only Castiel but Chuck and Pamela that what he was doing was wrong, but again, again he listened to Ruby. Sam being upset that he's not trusted or forgiven automatically, yup, spoiled child at its best."

C: [laughing] What is this talking about?

G: [laughing] This is a 2021 review!

C: They grew up the exact same way! I don't think Stanford dorms for three years changes you fundamentally as a person. What are they talking about?

G: This is from 2021. [C: Woah.] The show was over when they had this thought. [C laughing] Okay, slay. [laughs] Literally, I saw the first line of that review, and I was like, "[gasps]. What? That's crazy."

C: Gasp. This person does make a good point that like, "Is it really so wise for Sam to be left on his own? [G: Yeah.] Isn't putting a recovering demon blood-aholic out there on his lonesome going to cause MORE trouble, rather than lessen it?" [G: Yeah.] Which, I think I see the point. I feel like if I didn't know that Sam was gonna be fighting demons on a bar next episode, I would assume that him leaving is just him going to like, stay with Bobby, and like, help him around the house for a bit while he gets adjusted to the wheelchair. [G: Yeah.] But like, that isn't what he does?

G: Yeah! Why is that not what he does?

C: Like, okay, you quit hunting. You want to heal. It seems pretty obvious that you go and help Bobby out around the house for a bit while you like, get your head on straight or whatever. Like, where is he going? [laughs] [G: I don't know.] Oh, ouch. This person says, "I just wish this episode had had more Jo and Ellen (and if this is their last episode - it was kind of a crappy end for their characters. On the one hand, I hope the writers bring them both back for at least one more episode, so that they can get a *proper* send-off...but on the other hand, I don't want these two characters brought back simply to be killed off. They deserve better than that, writers!)." [laughs] And this was in September 2009, so they did not know. [G: That is interesting.] I'm so sorry to Chalice_of_evil.

G: That's so interesting that they think this was the last Jo and Ellen episode. Why is that?

C: I think just 'cause we haven't seen them for like, two years.

G: Yeah, that's true. So you may assume that this is like, a one-time, they're bringing them back for one time. [C: Yeah, one-time thing, yeah.]

G: Yeah. Well, I think that's it for this episode of "Busty Asian Beauties." Next week, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 3: "Free to Be You and Me." Leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts!

C: Follow us on- Sorry, wait. [laughing] I got distracted by the last review. Are you seeing the last review?

G: What is it? Let me see.

C: It's like, [laughing] it's- I'm trying to figure out what stance they're taking. [G laughing] Literally, [both laughing] "are these the lessons we're teaching our children? I remember a time where we took responsibility for our own actions, not force blame on someone else. Who writes this trash?"

G: [laughing] Literally, who writes this trash?

C: Okay, what are they saying? They're like, okay, Sam feels bad because Dean's being mean to him. Dean is angry 'cause Sam was manipulated. He was- Okay, they're blaming Dean. [G: Yeah.] They're saying that-

G: Yeah, how dare Dean blame Sam.

C: - Dean's mad at Sam for being manipulated when Dean himself was manipulated into doing something worse, which is torturing people for ten years. And they say, "Yet, this sanctimonious piece of garbage decides to place full blame on his brother." [G laughs] Real! [laughs] Yeah, and then it ends with "Are these the lessons we're teaching our children?" [laughs] Is Supernatural primarily aimed at children? I thought it was, for, like, high schoolers and young adults, and also above? [G: Mm, yeah.] Whatever. Only 1 out of 13 found this helpful. [G laughing] Well, I found this helpful to me laughing [G: Exactly.] and also reading these words and laughing more, so there.

Well, anyway. Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or... questions? inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

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