#lewis de bourgh

[whats-in-a-sentence]

"Why, indeed; he does seem to have had some filial scruples on that head, as you will hear."

Hunsford, near Westerham, Kent,

15th October.

Dear Sir,

The disagreement subsisting between yourself and my late honoured father always gave me much uneasiness, and since I have had the misfortune to lose him, I have frequently wished to heal the breach; but for some time I was kept back by my own doubts, fearing lest it might seem disrespectful to his memory for me to be on good terms with anyone with whom it had always pleased him to be at variance. –

'There, Mrs. Bennet.'

– My mind, however, is now made up on the subject, for having received ordination at Easter, I have been so fortunate as to be distinguished by the patronage of the Right Honourable Lady Catherine de Bourgh, widow of Sir Lewis de Bourgh, whose bounty and beneficence has preferred me to the valuable rectory of this parish, where it shall be my earnest endeavour to demean myself with grateful respect towards her ladyship, and be ever ready to perform those rites and ceremonies which are instituted by the Church of England. As a clergyman, moreover, I feel it my duty to promote and establish the blessing of peace in all families within the reach of my influence; and on these grounds I flatter myself that my present overtures are highly commendable, and that the circumstance of my being next in the entail of Longbourn estate will be kindly overlooked on your side, and not lead you to reject the offered olive-branch. I cannot be otherwise than concerned at being the means of injuring your amiable daughters, and beg leave to apologise for it, as well as to assure you of my readiness to make them ever possible amends – but of this hereafter. If you should have no objection to receive me into your house, I propose myself the satisfaction of waiting on you and your family, Monday, November 18th, by four o'clock, and shall probably trespass on your hospitality till the Saturday se'ennight following, which I can do without any inconvenience, as Lady Catherine is far from objecting to my occasional absence on a Sunday, provided some other clergyman is engaged to do the duty of the day. – I remain, dear sir, with respectful compliments to your lady and daughters, your well-wisher and friend,

William Collins

"Pride and Prejudice" - Jane Austen

[mrdarcysleftnut]

If he ever escaped Hertfordshire, Darcy swore to himself he would never return for as long as he lived. “Then I am afraid, if you have me, you will be obliged to have her and her companion as well.”

“Excellent! If I am to spend Christmas Day with a house full of my own silly women, the least you can do is bring a few of your own.”

Darcy could not accustom himself to the man’s irreverence, and the comparison of Anne to any one of Elizabeth’s younger sisters was sobering, thus he did not smile as they stood to shake hands.

A quote from "Epiphany: A Pride & Prejudice Variation (A Little Bit of Darcy and Elizabeth)" by Jessie Lewis

Start reading this book for free: https://a.co/dCvu2b9

[anghraine]

melyzard replied to this post:

You know, given that P&P was published in 1813 before the 1696 window tax was repealed, she might just be admiring both the outdoors AND the expansive and numerous windows themselves. I mean, good windows really were a big sign of wealth and consequence until 1851 when the tax was finally repealed. But yeah,also,yeah, she's definitely more interested in the outdoors than the Great Chimney Places of the Wealthy

It's true that windows were a major status symbol at the time and long before, but I don't think Elizabeth much cares about that, in all honesty! That is the relevant historical context for Mr Collins's rhapsodies over Rosings' windows, for instance:

she could not be in such raptures as Mr Collins expected the scene to inspire, and was but slightly affected by his enumeration of the windows in front of the house, and his relation of what the glazing altogether had originally cost Sir Lewis de Bourgh

He's silly but he's not mistaken in identifying the windows as a significant status symbol (which without that cultural context can seem like just another Mr Collins absurdity). But Elizabeth specifically, as a person, is consistently not very interested in these kinds of status symbols (though she knows they're there and understands what they signify). She is attracted to natural beauty and unassuming elegance, which is the overwhelming note at Pemberley:

She had never seen a place for which nature had done more, or where natural beauty had been so little counteracted by an awkward taste.

Even when it does come to Pemberley's expensive interior, she focuses on the aesthetic dissimilarity to Rosings and, even more, about what is suggested about Darcy's relationships to other people dependent on him (Elizabeth's takeaway from the pretty interior decorating project for Georgiana is "He is certainly a good brother" and not how much disposable income this represents, say).

The fuller quote when she first approaches the window is pretty clear about what Elizabeth is focusing on, IMO:

Elizabeth, after slightly surveying it, went to a window to enjoy its prospect. The hill, crowned with wood, from which they had descended, receiving increased abruptness from the distance, was a beautiful object. Every disposition of the ground was good; and she looked on the whole scene, the river, the trees scattered on its banks, and the winding of the valley, as far as she could trace it, with delight. As they passed into other rooms, these objects were taking different positions; but from every window there were beauties to be seen.

[rusakkowrites]

WIP folder game

@wurzelbertzwerg tagged me to share my WIP folder, so here goes! These are story ideas that I’ve somewhat actively worked on at some point – I also have several notebooks full of scribbled ideas, but fortunately they’re out of scope for this game.

If you would like to share the contents of your WIP folder, consider yourself tagged by me!

Fandoms that I’m currently active in

Pride and Prejudice

Childhood Friends AU: Darcy and Elizabeth meet in London when Elizabeth is eight years old and end up meeting again over the years for various reasons. Probably won’t be finished because the plot involves some fanon-based characterisations and unrealistic scenarios that I don’t like anymore.

Different conversation at the inn AU: A short canon divergence in which Darcy can’t bear seeing Elizabeth in distress and ends up confessing his plan to find Lydia and Wickham. This leads to an earlier romantic resolution.

Elizabeth de Bourgh AU: AU in which Elizabeth’s father was Sir Lewis’s younger brother, who broke with his family, and her mother was Mr Bennet’s cousin. She’s been raised by the Bennets after being orphaned. When she’s 19 or 20, her paternal relatives take a renewed interest in her after she gets a surprise inheritance. Probably won’t be finished. (I actually also have some notes for a different AU in which Elizabeth is related to both the Bennets and the de Bourghs in a slightly less convoluted way – that one I might actually try to work on at some point.)

Hogwarts AU: An AU in which all the Austen characters are witches and wizards, mixing and matching plot elements from Pride and Prejudice and Harry Potter. Currently on the back burner because I feel conflicted about writing or posting anything related to J.K. Rowling.

Kitty thinks Darcy is evil AU: A Pride and Prejudice sequel from Kitty’s point of view, featuring lots of ridiculous misunderstandings on Kitty’s part.

Pride and Prejudice and Compound Interest: A short exploration of the potential financial futures of Elizabeth, Lydia and Charlotte. I have a complete draft of this one, but I feel like it would require more research before I’m willing to post it, and I’m not really motivated to do said research at the moment.

Animorphs AU: Darcy’s proposal to Elizabeth is interrupted when an injured alien crashes his spaceship in Mr Collins’s vegetable garden. I have lots of ideas and snippets for this one, but the scope creep became kind of intimidating, so I don’t know if I’ll ever finish any part of this story.

Emma

Snowed in AU: An AU in which the Woodhouses, the Knightleys and Mr Elton do get snowed in at Randalls on Christmas Eve. Mr Elton drinks more wine than in canon, his proposal is even worse, and events butterfly away from there. This one I’m actually actively working on at the moment (but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will ever be finished).

P&P + Emma crossover

P&P + Emma: Elizabeth’s trip with the Gardiners is cancelled and she persuades her father to forbid Lydia’s trip to Brighton, so the meeting at Pemberley doesn’t happen and Lydia never elopes. Instead, Elizabeth is invited by the Gardiners to visit some of their relatives in a little town called Highbury – and coincidentally, Mr Darcy and his sister happen to have family there too. The additional characters cause further complications in the already convoluted plot of Emma.

Northanger Abbey

To Rip What You Sew: A very short little Henry/Catherine piece inspired by a stupid pun. I need to find a suitable Gothic novel to reference before moving forward with this one.

April Lady (Georgette Heyer)

April Lady canon divergence: I actually have a preliminary summary for this one: “A dresser’s discretion and a kiss that is not interrupted put Lord and Lady Cardross on a different path towards reconciliation.” I’ve got most of the story written, but it’s been sitting and waiting for editing inspiration for a few years because I wasn’t quite happy with some parts of the plot.

Permanently abandoned WIPs from fandoms that I’ve moved away from

Yuri!!! On Ice

Yuuri of Green Gables: An AU idea inspired by L.M. Montgomery’s works. I only have a very vague recollection of what the plot was supposed to be, but I remember that it would have spanned from Yuuri’s childhood through his university years and that Yuuri became an artist. There was also a dramatic romantic resolution involving a broken engagement. I also had plans for a sequel that involved Yuuri getting measles and hallucinating. All in all it was a sprawling project that never got much beyond a 12,000-word bullet point plan and a few draft scenes.

Stand Still, Stay Silent

A Dangerous Midsummer: An AU in which Emil went to Finland with a group of cleansers after the first adventure and (of course) ended up working with Lalli. I remember that the story involved troll-hunting shenanigans, swamps, midsummer traditions and eventual romance.

Bedtime stories and lullabies: A story about Onni’s childhood, exploring his relationship with his family through bedtime stories and lullabies.

Tuuli Hollola: A fic about Tuuli Hollola from Kaino’s perspective.

Side effects: A story from Year 0 told through clinical trial documentation.

The Swedish mage: A story about a Swedish original character who accidentally found out that he was a mage during a visit to Norway. I remember that the dreamworld was involved, but I think I hadn’t quite worked out the entire plot when I abandoned the story.

I generally only post stories that are completely or almost completely pre-written, so these WIPs fortunately aren’t sitting abandoned on AO3 causing me stress. Most of them will probably never see the light of day, but they were fun to work on nonetheless!

[thatscarletflycatcher]

Lady Catherine then observed,— “Your father’s estate is entailed on Mr. Collins, I think? For your sake,” turning to Charlotte, “I am glad of it; but otherwise I see no occasion for entailing estates from the female line. It was not thought necessary in Sir Lewis de Bourgh’s family. Do you play and sing, Miss Bennet?” “A little.” “Oh then—some time or other we shall be happy to hear you. Our instrument is a capital one, probably superior to —— you shall try it some day. Do your sisters play and sing?” “One of them does.” “Why did not you all learn? You ought all to have learned. The Miss Webbs all play, and their father has not so good an income as yours. Do you draw?” “No, not at all.” “What, none of you?” “Not one.” “That is very strange. But I suppose you had no opportunity. Your mother should have taken you to town every spring for the benefit of masters.” “My mother would have no objection, but my father hates London.” “Has your governess left you?” “We never had any governess.” “No governess! How was that possible? Five daughters brought up at home without a governess! I never heard of such a thing. Your mother must have been quite a slave to your education.” Elizabeth could hardly help smiling, as she assured her that had not been the case. “Then who taught you? who attended to you? Without a governess, you must have been neglected.” “Compared with some families, I believe we were; but such of us as wished to learn never wanted the means. We were always encouraged to read, and had all the masters that were necessary. Those who chose to be idle certainly might.”

Basically: mothers at the time were in charge of supervising their daughters' education (we see this with Mrs Morland in Northanger Abbey, and in other works afterwards such as Lady Cuxhaven and Lady Cumnor in Elizabeth Gaskell's Wives and Daughters), but Mrs Bennet did nothing of the sort, despite Mr Bennet's willingness to engage teachers for the girls (and it is reasonable to asume he was the one that encouraged reading, if it was one of the parents that did the encouragement rather than... perhaps the Gardiners?). Whichis one of the ways in which I find the Mrs Bennet defense squad mistaken. She isn't "the only desperate reasonable parent trying to do something": she neglected to do what was her duty when the girls were young, and even during the novel all her schemes are about making someone else do something instead of working herself (and then of course how she shows how little she really cares about her daughters when she throws away any caution on the matter of keeping Lydia's elopement secret, just for the sake of trying to get pity and compassion and attention from others herself).

Quick reminder, because some Pride and Prejudice fans seem to think otherwise and criticize Austen for it:

Mr. Bennet doesn't call Mary "silly" because she's less social than her sisters or because she's a bookworm. If he did, that would be very hypocritical of him! He calls her "silly" because she's she's a pretentious, preachy bore who always tries to show off her intellect and accomplishments, which she thinks are greater than they are.

That doesn't mean we can't sympathize with her or relate to her. She behaves the way she does to try to compensate for her lack of beauty, and to gain the attention she rarely gets either from society or from her family. And of course Mr. Bennet is wrong to just write off Mary, Kitty, and Lydia as "silly" instead of giving them real parental guidance – this is the lesson he learns after Lydia runs off with Wickham. But Mary is a comic character, not just a relatable and unfairly judged nerd.

[lands-of-fantasy]

Pride and Prejudice

Classic and loose adaptions from 1940, 1967, 1980, 1995, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2016, 2018, 2019

The second of Jane Austen’s novels, first published in 1813, is the most often adapted, inspiring various different takes on it. The ones pictures above are detailed below:

Pride and Prejudice (1940 Film)

This black and white film departs from the original novel in some (or should I say many?) points

Written by Aldous Huxley and Jane Murfin, adapted from the stage adaptation by Helen Jerome; directed by Robert Z. Leonard

Starring Greer Garson as Elizabeth Bennet, Laurence Olivier as Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy, Edward Ashley Cooper as George Wickham, Maureen O'Sullivan as Jane Bennet, Bruce Lester as Mr. Charles Bingley, Ann Rutherford as Lydia Bennet, Melville Cooper as Mr. William Collins, among others.

Pride and Prejudice (1967 Miniseries)

6 episodes x 24min. Black and White footage Written by Nemone Lethbridge, directed by Joan Craft

Starring Celia Bannerman as Elizabeth Bennet, Lewis Fiander as Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy, Richard Hampton as George Wickham, Polly Adams as Jane Bennet, David Savile as Mr. Charles Bingley, Lucy Fleming as Lydia Bennet, Julian Curry as Mr. William Collins, among others.

Pride and Prejudice (1980 Miniseries)

5 episodes x 54 min Written by Fay Weldon, directed by Cyril Coke

Starring Elizabeth Garvie as Elizabeth Bennet, David Rintoul as Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy, Peter Settelen as George Wickham, Sabina Franklyn as Jane Bennet, Osmund Bullock as Mr. Charles Bingley, Natalie Ogle as Lydia Bennet, Malcolm Rennie as Mr. William Collins, among others.

Pride and Prejudice (1995 Miniseries)

6 episodes x 54 min Written by Andrew Davies, directed by Simon Langton

Starring Jennifer Ehle as Elizabeth Bennet, Colin Firth as Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy, Adrian Lukis as George Wickham, Susannah Harker as Jane Bennet, Crispin Bonham-Carter as Mr. Charles Bingley, Julia Sawalha as Lydia Bennet, David Bamber as Mr. William Collins, among others.

Pride and Prejudice (2003 Indie Film)

Loose adaption set in modern Utah, USA Written by Anne Black, Jason Faller, Katherine Swigert; directed by Andrew Black

Starring Kam Heskin as Elizabeth Bennet, Orlando Seale as Will Darcy, Henry Maguire as Jack Wickham, Lucila Sola as Jane Vasquez, Ben Gourley as Charles Bingley, Kelly Stables as Lydia Meryton, Hubbel Palmer as William Collins, among others.

Bride and Prejudice (2004 Film)

Bollywood-style Musical. Loose adaption set in modern India and England. Written by Paul Mayeda Berges, Gurinder Chadha; directed by Gurinder Chadha

Starring Aishwarya Rai as Lalita Bakshi (Elizabeth), Martin Henderson as William "Will" Darcy,  Daniel Gillies as Johnny Wickham, Namrata Shirodkar as Jaya Bakshi (Jane), Naveen Andrews as Mr Balraj Uppal (Bingley), Peeya Rai Chowdhary as Lakhi Bakshi (Lydia), Nitin Ganatra as Kohli Saab (Collins), among others.

Pride and Prejudice (2005 Film)

Written by Deborah Moggach, directed by Joe Wright

Starring Keira Knightley as Elizabeth Bennet, Matthew Macfadyen as Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy, Rupert Friend as George Wickham, Rosamund Pike as Jane Bennet, Simon Woods as Mr. Charles Bingley, Jena Malone as Lydia Bennet, Claudie Blakley as Charlotte Lucas, Tom Hollander as Mr. Collins, Donald Sutherland as Mr. Bennet, Judi Dench as Lady Catherine de Bourgh, among others.

The Lizzie Bennet Diaries (2012–13 Webseries)

160 episodes x 2-8 min, available on Youtube Loose adaption set in modern US, told in a vlog format

Created by Hank Green and Bernie Su, from Pemberley Digital

Starring Ashley Clements as Elizabeth Bennet, Daniel Vincent Gordh as William Darcy, Wes Aderhold as George Wickham, Laura Spencer as Jane Bennet, Christopher Sean as Bing Lee, Mary Kate Wiles as Lydia Bennet, Julia Cho as Charlotte Lu, Maxwell Glick as Ricky Collins, among others.

Lizzie’s videos amount to 100 episodes + 10 Q&A, but shorter series enrich the story by offering other characters’ perspectives, most notably Lydia’s (and also Georgiana’s). A playlist at Pemberley Digital’s Youtube channel features them all in order.

The series has also been adapted into a book, The Secret Diary of Lizzie Bennet (2014), and spawned a sequel novel, The Epic Adventures of Lydia Bennet (2015).

Pride and Prejudice and Zombies (2016 Film)

Loose adaption inspired by the 2009 novel of the same name by Seth Grahame-Smith, which adds zombies to Austen’s original story. The movie makes alterations from the zombie book as well.

Written and directed by Burr Steers

Starring Lily James as Elizabeth Bennet, Sam Riley as Colonel Fitzwilliam Darcy, Jack Huston as George Wickham, Bella Heathcote as Jane Bennet, Douglas Booth as Mr. Charles Bingley, Ellie Bamber as Lydia Bennet, Matt Smith as Parson William Collins, among others.

Orgulho e Paixão (Pride and Passion) (2018 Telenovela)

Brazilian telenovela in Brazilian-Portuguese

162 episodes x 30-40min (original version) Loose adaption set in 1910s São Paulo state, Brazil

Created by Marcos Bernstein, directed by Fred Mayrink

Starring Nathalia Dill as Elisabeta Benetido, Thiago Lacerda as Sr. Darcy Williamson, Pâmela Tomé as Jane Benedito, Maurício Destri as Camilo Bittencourt (Bingley), Bruna Giphao as Lídia Benedito, Bruno Gissoni as Diogo Uirapuru (Wickham/Willoughby), among others.

The story takes inspiration from all 6 of Austen’s major novels (plus Lady Susan), but mostly from Pride and Prejudice. Others stars include Chandelly Braz as Mariana Benedito (Marianne Dashwood) and Anajú Dorigon as Cecília Benedito (Catherine Morland).

Features 100 episodes in the International cut. The telenovela has been broadcast in other countries and languages (such as Spanish) but as far as I know, not in English.

Pride and Prejudice: Atlanta (2019 TV Film)

Loose adaption set in modern Atlanta, USA. All-black cast. Written by Tracy McMillan, directed by Rhonda Baraka

Starring Tiffany Hines as Elizabeth Bennet, Juan Antonio as Will Darcy, Raney Branch as Jane Bennet, Brad James as Charles Bingley, Reginae Carter as Lydia Bennet, Carl Anthony Payne as Rev. Collins, among others.

*****

Personal favorites: 2005, then 1995. But also: The Lizzie Bennet Diaries, Orgulho e Paixão

I also enjoyed Atlanta and, while it’s been a while since I’ve seen Bride and Prejudice, it’s got Indian musical numbers so c’mon, one gotta watch it.

Back to the closer adaptions, despite its age, 1980 is also good! 1940 is...very different, but fun in its own way.

In fact, while I find some of these versions weaker, I could find enjoyment in all of them - but maybe that’s cause I’m a sucker for P&P.

[bethanydelleman]

Lady Anne and Pregnancy Loss

I find it highly improbable that with only one son, and high infant/child mortality, that Darcy Sr. and Lady Anne weren't trying to have more kids. Which means there was either 11 years of unexplained secondary infertility or a string of miscarriages/stillborns. Even though it seems like people in this era took miscarriages less seriously (see Jane Austen’s letters), that must have been terrible for them, especially Lady Anne. Darcy was probably spoiled more than the average heir/male child because he was their precious only child. Georgiana surviving/existing must have seemed like a miracle.

(Darcy says he was an only child for years, I take this to imply that no other child made it to Christening, so either early death, stillborn or miscarriage. It is possible a child died before Darcy was born, but if Lady Anne, for example, was Rh negative, Darcy being a healthy firstborn and then a string of miscarriages would make perfect medical sense)

We don't know when Sir Lewis de Bourgh died, but Lady Catherine might well have experienced the same sort of thing, except she never got a second child. All she has is the sickly Anne as an heir, a risky prospect. Again, it’s very unlikely that with only one child, Lady Catherine and Sir Lewis would have stopped attempting to make an heir. So either he died early, or Lady Catherine may have shared the cause of infertility with her sister (again, Rh negative makes so much sense here)

It makes me wonder if maybe the two sisters really did want their only children to marry each other. Having only one child survive for so many years, and that the children were opposite genders, might have looked like a sign or gift from God. Even if you don’t look at it from a religious perspective, it looks like a perfect match. If the sisters married at similar times and both Anne and Darcy were born right after their marriages, it might have begun as a pleasant dream, but as pregnancy loss after loss followed, I could see the plan becoming more and more dear, especially to Lady Catherine.

It also might help explain some of Darcy’s character. He is the precious only child for a long time, the only survivor, with undivided attention. Then the second miracle baby arrives and Georgiana must have been so precious to her parents after so many years of failure. He is given the responsibility to protect what must have been such a precious gift! 

All speculation based on probability, but interesting to think about.

Edit: I've been told Rh- is unlikely because Georgiana eventually survived. Good to know! Could work for Lady Catherine.

[kellehim]

PRIDE & PREJUDICE, STARRING F1

i was rewatching pride & prejudice the other day, and figured i should do a casting of it using f1 drivers & principles <3

while your at it, check out my casting using lfc :)

thank you again to @halfdrunkhappy​ for helping me out and smoothing everything out!

the bennet family

kevin magnussen & sergio perez as mr & mrs bennet

charles leclerc as jane bennet

lewis hamilton as elizabeth ‘lizzie’ bennet

esteban ocon as mary bennet

pierre gasly as catherine ‘kitty’ bennet

yuki tsunoda as lydia bennet

the lovers & fools

sebastian vettel as mr. darcy

daniel ricciardo as mr. bingley

ginger spice’s husband as mr. wickham

the family (in order of apperance)

fernando alonso as lady catherine de bourgh

guenther steiner as mr. collins

lance stroll as caroline bingley

mick schumacher as georgiana darcy

[bethanydelleman]

If Sir Lewis was a baronet, he’d most likely need to have a male heir to inherit the title. Anne being the heir of Rosings it makes the most sense that Sir Lewis is a knight.

Lady Catherine also says, “They [Anne and Darcy] are descended, on the maternal side, from the same noble line; and, on the father’s, from respectable, honourable, and ancient, though untitled, families.”

While a baronet isn’t a ‘real’ title, because a baronet isn’t a peer, I still don’t see Lady Catherine making that distinction during a brag. Therefore all evidence points to knight.

Do we know what Sir Lewis de Bourgh's exact rank is? Is he a knight or a baronet?

I've always seen him categorized as a knight.

[fielran]

A (not so) Brief Guide to Titles and Prefixes on Downton Abbey

Married vs Unmarried Women

All downstairs characters should be either Miss or Mrs. The prefix Ms. did not come into common use until the late 1960s and so is anachronistic -- it is not a shortened version of Miss, but rather a marital-status neutral alternative to the other prefixes in use.

"Miss" denotes an unmarried character, regardless of age.

"Mrs" or "Misses" denotes a married or widowed character, or rarely, an upper female servant. Remember the exchange from S1--

Joe Burns: I notice you call yourself Misses.

Mrs Hughes: Housekeepers and cooks are always Misses. You know better than anyone I haven't changed my name.

Joe Burns: Well, I know you wouldn't change it to Burns when you had the chance.

Miss or Mrs are also used for any middle or upper class characters who do not have titles, including courtesy titles.

Use of Prefixes for Servants

The lower servants, including maids and footmen, are referred to by first name only, both by upstairs and downstairs characters.

Lady's maids, valets, and male upper servants are referred to by prefix and last name by downstairs characters, but by only last name by upstairs characters. For example, Mrs. Hughes says "Miss O'Brien" but Cora and Robert say only "O'Brien". Female upper servants get the prefix from everyone, even Lord Grantham:

Mrs Patmore: I promise you, milord, if I could just be allowed a bit more time--

Robert, Earl of Grantham: Mrs Patmore, I've not asked you here to give you your notice.

For example, Thomas Barrow starts as a footman, and everyone calls him Thomas. During the war, he is Corporal or Sergeant Barrow, then he is called Thomas again after, as a footman. When he becomes Robert's valet, he is Mr Barrow downstairs, or Barrow upstairs, and remains that way throughout his remaining promotions. He is also called Mr Barrow by the children. It may be this is a peculiarity, or the children may be expected to refer to unrelated adults using their title.

Anna is a bit of a strange case - she properly ought to be Mrs. Bates downstairs and Bates upstairs after she becomes a lady's maid, but perhaps to avoid confusion with her husband who is also Bates upstairs, the change never happens.

Phyllis Baxter is Baxter upstairs, Miss Baxter downstairs. If Mrs Hughes retires and Phyllis takes her place, she would be Mrs. Baxter. If she actually gets around to marrying Molesley at some point, with no promotion, she would be Mrs Molesley downstairs, Molesley upstairs.

Tom Branson as chauffeur is called Branson by both upstairs and downstairs characters - at least those who are not in a relationship with him. After his marriage to Lady Sybil, he is called Mr Branson by those outside the family.

Daisy is called by only her first name as a scullery and kitchen maid. There are no other undercooks to compare, so I am unsure whether she ought to be Mrs Mason. If Mrs Patmore retires and she becomes the cook, she should become Mrs Mason (or Mrs Parker, if she actually gets around to marrying Andy by then).

Titles for Nobility

There are 2 main types of titles used by the 'nobility': Substantive titles, and courtesy titles.

Substantive titles are for those who hold titles in their own right. This includes hereditary peers, like Lord Grantham, as well as life peers. The title holders have seats in the House of Lords.

Courtesy titles are for those connected to title holders - wives and widows, children, and other male-line heirs. Wives and widows hold legal, though not substantive, titles. Children of title holders are considered socially as nobility; however, legally speaking they are commoners and can be elected to the house of commons.

Lord Grantham is the only member of the Crawley family with a substantive title during the time of the series. All the others use courtesy titles. As the wife and widow of title holders, Cora and Violet are Lady [title], in this case Lady Grantham.

Legitimate daughters of a hereditary Marquess, Duke, or Earl or his direct male-line heirs are Lady [first name]: Lady Sybil, etc. They retain this styling if they marry someone without a title. In Pride and Prejudice, Darcy's aunt Lady Catherine, daughter of an Earl, had been married to Sir Lewis de Bourgh, who held only a knighthood and no title, so she remained Lady Catherine. Violet Crawley married Robert's father, the Earl of Grantham, and so her married title of Lady Grantham took precedence over any title she used previously, even if her father had higher precedence.

This courtesy title does not carry on to their children. Sybbie Branson cannot claim her mother's courtesy title, and her father Tom Branson has no title of his own, so she will be Miss, not Lady. Under formal etiquette, she and any future siblings would be styled like the Bennets - Miss Branson for an adult Sybil, as the eldest unmarried daughter, Miss [first name] for any additional unmarried daughters. However, they would not necessarily follow such protocol unless they are active socially in the upper class - if Mr Branson marries Lucy and she inherits, for example. The middle and lower class, especially more radical members thereof, did not hold closely to this tradition by the time Sybbie would be an adult.

The eldest son and heir of the hereditary holder of a title in the top 3 ranks - duke, marquess, or earl - can use one of the title holder's subsidiary titles as a courtesy title. We don't know if Grantham has a subsidiary title, because nobody alive during the show is entitled to use it. If there is one, Robert would have used it prior to his father's death; however, James was not Robert's son and therefore could not use the title, nor could Patrick or Matthew. George, although he is Robert's grandson and heir, cannot use the title because he is inheriting through Matthew rather than Robert.

The younger sons of Dukes and Marquesses are given the courtesy title Lord [first name]. The younger sons of Earls without subsidiary titles, as well as all sons of other nobles, are styled The Honourable [first name] [last name], as: "The Honourable Evelyn Napier, son and heir to Viscount Branksome." Tim Grey is also "The Honourable", although he will not inherit if Larry has any legitimate sons.

Adopted children were not entitled to a courtesy title at the time Downton Abbey takes place, so there will be no title for Marigold even if Bertie adopts her or Edith acknowledges her.

Young Children

Young children of higher standing than the speaker should be referred to as Master or Miss, regardless of actual titles. So in Downton's nursery we have Master George, Miss Sybbie, Miss Caroline, and Johnny.

So What Does That All Mean for Whoever I'm Writing About?

Robert would have been Master Robert as a child, Viscount Something - the wiki says Viscount Downton - as a young man, prior to his father's death, and of course is Lord Grantham in the time of the show. Had he had a son while his father was still living, that son may have used another subsidiary title, if one exists, or have been styled "The Honourable". Any brothers Robert had would also be styled "The Honourable".

Cora would have been Miss Levinson prior to her marriage, Viscountess Something after, then finally Duchess of Grantham. She may one day become the Dowager Duchess of Grantham.

Mary would remain Lady Mary after both marriages, as neither Matthew or Henry has a title. However, had Matthew lived to become Earl of Grantham, she would have become Countess of Grantham at that time. Carson may have called her Miss Mary as a child.

Sybil Crawley would remain Lady Sybil, though she would use Branson's last name.

Edith would change from Lady Edith to the Marchioness of Hexam on her marriage. Her illegitimate daughter Marigold would have no title, even if adopted by Lord Hexam. Her firstborn son would use a subsidiary title, and younger sons would be called Lord [first name]. The firstborn son of her firstborn son would also likely have a subsidiary title. Additional daughters would be Lady [first name].

Bertie went from an untitled Mr Pelham to the Marquess of Hexam. His mother did not gain a title and is called Mrs Pelham.

Sybbie Branson is Miss Sybbie now, and will be Miss Branson. She will not have a title unless she marries into one.

George Crawley is Master George now, and will be Mr Crawley until he inherits the title Earl of Grantham. He is not Viscount Downton.

Marigold is Miss Marigold, and will be Miss whatever-last-name-they-decide-to-use. I don't know what that is, and there isn't one listed on the wiki. Miss Pelham if Bertie adopts her.

Caroline is Miss Caroline, and will be Miss Talbot.

Evelyn Napier is The Horourable Evelyn Napier. He is addressed directly as Mr Napier. After his father's death, he will be Viscount Branksome.

Anthony Foyle is Viscount Gillingham. Prior to his father's death, he was an Honourable.

Larry and Amelia Grey are styled The Honorable Mr and Mrs Larry Grey. They will be Baron and Baroness Merton on his father's death.

Let me know if there are any other characters you aren’t sure of, and I’ll try to add them.

[amarguerite]

I am. A humble little fool with only culturally knowledge of pride and prejudice and no knowledge from ever actually having read it. (I own several pretty copies but I own literally at least a thousand unread books. It's a hell of my own creation.) I started reading an Ever Fixed Mark and got confused so I had to stop. Are Fitzwilliam Darcy (Mr. Darcy, right) and Colonal Fitzwilliam the ...same person.

Nope, they’re cousins!

Fitzwilliam Darcy is Mr. Darcy. He owns Pemberley, and has a little sister, Georgiana. His parents are dead— but his mother, Lady Anne Darcy, was Lady Anne Fitzwilliam before she got married, and Darcy’s first name is his mother’s maiden name, which was a relatively common practice in the Regency era, if the mother’s family was prominent or important.

Colonel Fitzwilliam is Fitzwilliam Darcy’s cousin. His father and Darcy’s mother are brother and sister.

So in my fic, the deceased Earl and Countess of Matlock had three kids: Lady Catherine, Lady Anne, and the current Earl of Matlock.

Lady Catherine married Sir Lewis de Bourgh and has one kid, Anne de Bourgh. Sir Lewis is dead.

Lady Anne married Mr. Darcy Sr and had two kids, Fitzwilliam Darcy and Georgiana Darcy. Lady Anne and her husband are dead.

The Earl of Matlock married an OC of mine and has five kids: Julian, the viscount Stornoway (he’s called the viscount as a courtesy title because he will one day be the Earl); Colonel Richard Fitzwilliam; Honoria; Sybil; and Arabella.

They’re not the same person but the whole fic came about because they share the name Fitzwilliam.

[nellygwyn]

Hi Liv! As an historical property worker I was wondering if could you help me answer a question I've had about Rosings Park in Pride and Prejudice. It's stated that Anne de Bourgh is heiress to Rosings but Sir Lewis has been dead for some time, and since the estate (presumably) isn't entailed she should be mistress of Rosings by now. In this light, why and how is she still regarded as merely an heiress?

I'm not 100% sure on this, so don't take my word as gospel, but it's possible that her father left his property to Lady Catherine with the stipulation that after Lady Catherine dies, Anne becomes the owner of Rosings. This did happen and iirc, it happened in the wealthy family who adopted Jane Austen's brother, Edward, so perhaps that was something Austen thought about.

There's also a possibility that Anne's father left the property to Anne and thus, it is hers in many ways but she is still an heiress in that the property can only pass into the real ownership of her eldest son or another male relative. So, she is merely the bridge by which property can transfer from man to man. This definitely happened in the 18th and early 19th century.

[anghraine]

Thanks!

Just to be clear, Lady Catherine is a lady by birth, not marriage, like her sister, Lady Anne Darcy—Darcy's own mother. Lady Catherine's title would be Lady de Bourgh if it came from her husband, Sir Lewis de Bourgh. Her own status, however, supersedes any title a mere knight or baronet could give her—Lady Catherine and Lady Anne were the daughters of an earl, a high-ranking nobleman.

This certainly affects Darcy's social status, though I think it's sometimes a bit overstated in terms of where Darcy's prestige comes from. A lot of his status comes from the scale of inherited land the Darcys control and the power it represents (we are told that basically his entire income is generated by Pemberley, not a smaller genteel estate + a separate inheritance, as we see with more typical wealthy gentry in other novels). Darcy isn't literally a nobleman, but Pemberley is aristocratic in scale and the Darcys are the kind of family who would have close blood relatives in the higher echelons of the nobility, as he does.

That's really unusual for an Austen hero, or really any Austen character who's portrayed at all favorably. The very powerful landowners and those with close associations or alignments with them tend not to come out looking good in her work, but P&P is so central to so much of the general sense of what Austen is doing as a writer that I think it's easy to overlook how much of Austen's relatively sympathetic depiction of Darcy's power is unique to him personally.

(@bethanydelleman - thanks as well. I also don't get it, but it's seemed increasingly common in the last 10-15 years from public-facing scholars who should and, I think, do know better.)

I've been trying to think of a less harsh way to put it, but every time I see an ostensible expert say that Mr Bennet and Darcy have the same social position and the only difference between them is that Darcy has more money, it's like ... um, either this person doesn't know what they're talking about or assumes their audience is so unsophisticated and ignorant that they can't handle the slightest degree of nuance.

Yes, it's obvious why this always comes up with P&P specifically, and explaining all the many differences and gradations in socioeconomic hierarchies between then and now is a steep task and not always necessary or useful. But Darcy and Mr Bennet are both untitled hereditary landowners. This means they have the same rank, yes—the technicality Elizabeth uses with Lady Catherine—but it also means that their status, incomes, reach of influence, and general consequence in their world are going to be primarily based on their inherited land, not that all these things except income would be functionally identical in their social world.

Awhile ago, I quoted a fairly concise description of England's class system at the time by the historian Dorothy Marshall, made decades ago, but—unusually—managing to convey some of the RL complexity around social position without belaboring the point too much. One of the most critical points she makes is this:

In spite of the number of people who got their living from manufacture or trade, fundamentally it was a society in which the ownership of land alone conveyed social prestige and full political rights.

The difference between someone like Mr Bennet and someone like Darcy in terms of socioeconomic power and status (often termed "consequence" at the time) is inevitably going to be more about hereditary land ownership than any other factor, including incomes and connections. Their incomes provide important information about the scale and value of the land they own, but wealth alone only tells a portion of the story here.

[muffinworry]

Top five period drama moments and top five White London lines and/or scenes - Pink

Ahhhhhhhh thank you

Period drama moments (certainly not a comprehensive list, but off the top of my head, and in no particular order):

1. Shakespeare in Love: “You will never age for me.”  I have never not cried watching this. It’s impossible.

2. Casablanca, the Marsellaise scene. I guess it isn’t really a period drama, but that scene is the biggest Hell Yeah moment that’s ever been filmed.

3. Troy, the final fight with Hector and Achilles. Yeah, it’s not by any means a good movie, but when Eric Bana comes out looking so resigned and the drums start, it’s pretty great.

4. Dangerous Liaisons, “War, then.” Oh my god. So fucking good.

5. Cate Blanchett stealing the scene in Elizabeth, especially her speech to the furious clergy.

Honourable mentions: Lady Catherine De Bourgh in the BBC Pride & Prejudice, “are the shades of Pemberley to be thus polluted?” Alan Rickman as Colonel Brandon reading poetry to Marianne Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility, Damian Lewis being deliciously evil in The Forsyte Saga.

(now ask me the five worst period drama moments)

White London:

Man, I don’t know that I could actually list five distinct scenes, but I’m just going to say everything with the Dane Twins in it, because I am a good and pure Muffin.

[ao3feed-prideandprejudice-book]

Saving One's Estate

by BingBennet

Story summary: Rosings Park was left to Anne de Bourgh when Sir Lewis de Bourgh passed. With Anne is facing her own death, she arranges a nefarious scheme to allow her mother to stay at Rosings while giving Elizabeth independence.

EB&FD will end up with a HEA, but this is not a story for everyone. Most of the major themes in this story come from history, people I've known, or things the author has experienced.

This story was originally published in 2016 as "Lady Catherine Heading for the Hedgerows". It was taken down at the start of 2019. While the author intended to review and clean up all the stories she had written, she diagnosed with cancer and spent most of last year dealing with it. I (her daughter) am reposting the stories for your enjoyment.

This one is the longest story and will be about 40 chapters. I don't know how often I will be able to post as her work will dictate how much time she has.

Enjoy.

Words: 5923, Chapters: 1/40, Language: English

Fandoms: Pride and Prejudice - Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice & Related Fandoms

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply

Categories: F/M

Characters: Elizabeth Bennet, Fitzwilliam Darcy, Anne de Bourgh, Catherine de Bourgh, Colonel Fitzwilliam (Pride and Prejudice)

Relationships: Elizabeth Bennet/Fitzwilliam Darcy

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