#lenncliffe

[crepesuzette2023]

So whats like the general consensus about Stu and John? Do we think they ever messed around or not?

Ooooh, I won't burn and scar my typing fingers on anything like "general consensus," and my cop-out answer is: depends on who you ask. I mean, if you're living in a world where 'a man being with a woman' = straight, or 'a man who never came out unequivocally as queer' = straight, then John and Stu very much never messed around, and, more importantly, didn't feel the desire to.

But I think if you look at it with an open mind, without being afraid of the possibility, you'll see it's more likely they did than that they didn't.

First, you have John, with his life-long romantic idea of being in love with your creative partner (see: his comments on Yoko and Paul)—an idea that fits Stu seamlessly, and perhaps even started with him. In the Hunter Davies bio, John (in '67) calls Stu Paul's predecessor in the 'my trusted partner in art' role.

There is also this conversation with Stu's girlfriend, Astrid Kircherr, as related by Backbeat director Iain Softley:

Paying tribute to Astrid this week, film director Iain Softley revealed her moving words from his interviews with her when he made 1994 movie Backbeat about her and Stuart’s romance.

They hint at a complex relationship between her, Stuart and John. She said it was only after Stuart died that she and John “took a load of pills” and talked for 12 hours about “all the things on our minds about Stuart”. “‘He was jealous when Klaus and I fancied Stuart more, and took him home and left John out,” she told Iain.

“He told me he really loved Stuart, but was afraid of the feeling.”

Iain adds: “I think she thought he meant as a friend, I don’t think there was any suggestion they were in a relationship. But Stuart had always been John’s best friend, they shared a flat in Liverpool. John would write to Stuart as ‘Jesus Christ to John the Baptist’, in the sense Stuart was showing him the way. He looked up to him.

“There was a sense John didn’t want Stuart taken away from him, he didn’t want Stuart to stay in Hamburg.

“At the same time he was very fond of Astrid, but I think there was a conflict there.”

If John was afraid of the feeling, then I'm thinking he felt something that, at the time, and probably still today, was a scary thing to feel. I'll leave it at that.

Also, they were, what? 18, 19, 20 years old? At that age, odds are you do fool around, even if you regret it afterwards. Nothing wrong with that.

Look at this picture of Stu (r.) with Astrid and Astrid's ex, Klaus Voormann. Klaus, who later said he and Astrid didn't work as a couple because she wanted him to be exactly like her image of him, and whose marriage (to a woman) was a platonic marriage of convenience, according to himself. We have now reached the beautiful stage of come onnn! "Straight" was at the party, but so were many others. These relationships were messy! That's awesome!

And how do we feel about John feeling up Gene Vincent, while Paul and George look on knowingly, and Pete Best blanks out? We feel joyous and unsurprised.

A word about Paul vs. Stu, since we're (sort of) at it.

It's possible (what an understatement) to think of their rivalry as sexual rivalry. This is, once more, hinted at in Backbeat, where Stu is more or less giving away John to Paul.

And yet. I think it was more than that. I think everyone, back then, was fighting for more than a bed-partner. They were fighting for their future, for a life unlike their parents'. Paul was fighting for the band, Stu was fighting for John to join him on his artist's way (even giving 'rock'n'roll' a try), and John..

John was, on the one hand, the person either of the others felt he needed in order to realize his dream. But on the other hand, he was the least decided of the three. He may have perceived that, within the trio, he had the fewest fall-back options: Stu had his obvious, much-mentored artistic talent. Paul had a possible academic future bwxt to his musical talent, plus a clear determination to make it in music. John had talent in spades, but perhaps less of a clear-cut idea of where and how to apply it. So he tried keeping both of them close...?

With fun scenes like these as a result:

John sure is feeling campy/cuddly, while Paul is incandescent with rage. A hot look for both of them.

In the end, we don't know if they ever did fool around. My usual reply in those cases is: I hope they did, if they both wanted it. I hope it was good.

I need to check out this book:

John and Paul look happy.

[ilovedig]

Yoko said that John talked about Stuart so much she felt she knew him. This is a chaptered fic where I imagine some of those instances.

I know the summary needs work but I promise the fic is worth it. It is fun to get in Yoko's shoes and writing about John remembering Stuart is sad but cathartic.

I've written some of this but I'm still working on it and I can't wait to see where it goes!

And if you do read it, please consider leaving Kudos and comments, they mean a lot!

[lennon-cuddlywump]

🌹💘💣 for the shipping asks

My OTP? Definitely Lennison! Although Lenncliffe and McStarr are close seconds

Lencliffe is barely popular so that is my answer

None really, unless they're openly problematic ships. Although I do find Starrison vastly overrated

[worldsdumbestlesbian]

I think yoko has the characteristics of the main reasons john bonded with stu and paul. john mostly bonded with stu over art, and he mostly bonded with paul over music...yoko’s an artist and a musician. The perfect combination of both paul & stu

[cinnamontoastandtears]

Can I have a Lenncliffe request?

ooh sure !!

[ilovedig]

The way Geo is protecting and supporting John there is the same as here:

“I took that picture in my attic just after Stuart had died. George was only 18 then, and John was broken-hearted because he’d suffered another loss. But George is standing behind him, with a look of ‘I’ll look after you’, with a very grown-up strength in his face. It’s unbelievable. That was a picture where I feel I really succeeded, thanks to the trust of two people I really loved. And I knew when I had finished that picture that they loved me.” - Astrid

George protected John in a way I don't think the fandom talks about nearly enough.

[charmingwhiteloving-blog]

John & Stu

[ilovedig]

Why does every single fic act like Paul didn't realize he was in love with John till much much later? It's Paul who stalked John, not the other way around.

John fell in love with Stu before he ever fell in love with Paul. Just cause Paul was scared shitless doesn't mean he didn't know.

[ilovedig]

Because of this fic

I found this quote

Early in this second visit [Jürgen Vollmer] asked George to go out with him for a few hours for a solo session, and George agreed, slipping into his leather jacket and greasing back his quiff. The others showed their intrigue with nods and winks. They knew Jürgen had a crush on George; he sometimes wore an I LIKE IKE badge he’d altered to read I LIKE GEORGE. “It was chemical,” says Jürgen. “I liked George the most. He was very quiet and shy, like me, and also a dreamer.”

— Mark Lewisohn, The Beatles: All These Years (Vol.1) – Tune In. (proof copy) (2013)

And now let's look at the photos

DO YOU SEE THAT FUCKING SHIT EATING SMIRK?

Other photos of Geo also by Jurgen

Bonus, this non Geo photo of Lenncliffe

Which I think says everything a photo could possibly say about a relationship.

In conclusion, Jurgen and Geo definitely fucked.

[lennon-cuddlywump]

We need John pinning for Stu as well, and explaining what was going on between him and Mick during the Rock And Roll Circus

If the john lennon biopic doesn't have a scene where he knocks over a trash can and screams I'll be disappointed.

Must needed scenes in the blom lemon biopic!

- shagging on a grave stone

- surely a kiss or two from Brian

- what happened in Paris - banana milkshake

- lsd fuelled car drive with George Pattie Cynthia

- cutting up Paul’s birds dress event

- beat the meatles

- ending the Beatles in Disney

- car crash in Scotland

- the intense romance between him and Paul

Please feel free to continue the list x

[ilovedig]

Today in strange theories that actually have a lot of evidence to back them up:

Pete Best said in a talkback years ago that Paul wrote PS I Love You in memory of Stuart:

Of particular interest, was Pete's comments that "P.S. I Love You" was a song written by Paul to remember Stu Sutcliffe. Epstein's headsup was successful for The Beatles who had enough original material ready for George Martin who eventually chose "Love Me Do."

I always thought it was based on a letter John wrote to Stu or vice versa. However:

"Far more friendly to Stuart was Brian Epstein. They met at the Cavern and had dinner together. I believe John had talked to Brian about Stuart… Stuart was a creative artist and it was the job of art director for the Beatles that Brian envisaged for him. But after Stuart returned to Hamburg, Brian wrote to him and in the letter that I read asked him if he would like to help him ‘manage the boys’. He wrote: ‘I didn’t know anyone as lovely as you existed in Liverpool’. Brian said he would meet up again with Stuart in Germany and they could discuss it further - over another dinner." - Pauline Sutcliffe

I don't know about you, but "I didn't know anyone as lovely as you existed in Liverpool" doesn't sound platonic on any level.

Also, the song itself seems far posher than anything John would write.

I wonder if the song wasn't about a John letter but rather one Brian wrote that he found.

Also, this explains Barcelona better. Who would John rather be on vacation with soon after the anniversary of Stu's death? Astrid, his fiancee, or the man who could commiserate with him cause he was in love with Stu too?

Special thanks to @classicrocker2000 would not have known the Epcliffe thing without them!

[ilovedig]

The Lennon Estate did not acknowledge Stuart's birthday.

But yeah, their McLennon post on Paul's birthday totally meant something.

I really hate to break it to you, but that's enough proof for me.

[ilovedig]

Unpopular opinion

If by midnight the Lennon Estate doesn't acknowledge Stuart's birthday, it proves that the McLennon posts were just for the purpose of the legacy.

Which of course they were, John isn't alive.

But if the estate cared at all about what John might have wanted, they'd be posting about Stuart today.

Yoko said she felt she knew Stuart cause of how much John talked about him. Stuart was incredibly important to John and any estate that cared about his actual wishes would acknowledge that.

[ilovedig]

Everyone has decided we have no audio of Stuart.

However, the Hamburg tapes, the April and June 1960 tapes that were given to friends in Hamburg.

It was John, Paul, George, Stuart and Mike in Paul and Mike's bathroom recording.

There are four voices, so one has to be Stuart or Mike, though I feel like Mike probably wouldn't.

That harmony doesn't really sound like Paul.

Doesn't really sound like John or Paul and certainly doesn't sound like George.

Sounds kind of like George but also not at all

There are more examples, but those are the ones I've listened to carefully so far.

The sound is so distorted that it totally could be John or Paul or Geroge, but, Stuart was in the room, and John was in love with him, and they wrote a love song together at some point.

I feel like in at least one song on these two tapes, Stuart has to be singing at least harmony.

And it's not like we can trust what anyone says. I'm sure they didn't write it down at the time and I'm positive Paul and Mike wouldn't remember.

[ilovedig]

Oo I have an idea!

Comment with your Beatles-related ships. Don't be scared if it's a rare pair or unpopular or whatever, put all your ships!

Then everyone can look through the notes and find blogs to follow based on what they ship! And we can all find new blogs to follow!

[ilovedig]

I found this on Twitter.

I mean not that she's wrong, but I feel like this had way more to do with John being her competition than anything. Cause, he was, and clearly she knew that.

She knew the only reason John would keep him in the band, or ask him in the first place.

Also, why is this the first time I'm hearing that Klaus sat in in Hamburg? I mean I know he played with all of them when the band broke up, but I had no idea he was playing with them at the very beginning.