#kl: proposals

[k-labels]

LOADING….INSIGHT 

one of the most important moments in an idol’s life is their debut. the path they have worked hard to get towards and the day when the world catches a glimpse of who they are. some may choose to follow and support them from the beginning, others might just keep an eye out for them. those first impressions are key. 

our first upcoming event focuses on a debut song/concept of your choice. whether it’d be writing a fic inspired by the song’s meaning, a few lyrics, or just the overall vibe the song may have. the fic does not need to be word for word on what the debut song is about, hence the room for growth above. others may create visuals that took place during an idol’s debut. this can include screen grabs from their debut mv, any content from their debut era, etc. 

has your attention been sparked? please reblog this post and continue reading for actual details of our first event! 

LOADING….RULES

this event is exclusive to members only. if you’ve seen this on your feed and are interested in joining k-labels, and our future events, please review our official post and our audition forum. 

due to this being a members-exclusive event, it is very encouraged that all our members are in our discord server, as that is where any information and questions about this event will be posted. if you are not in our server please reach out to k-labels or our admins cici @iyeonjuni and val @fairybinie and we will provide you with the link. otherwise, you may ask potential questions through our dms and ask box!

SUBMISSIONS FOR THIS EVENT WILL BE ACCEPTED ON AUGUST 7th THROUGH AUGUST 14th (deadline). along with our standard k-labels tag, please use the event tag kl: debut so it’s easier to sort through. 

as always, each fic must contain its usual trigger warnings, genre, word count and pairing in the beginning. we will not be accepting any mem x mem fics. 

for our writers, the debut song you choose does not need to be the same artist you write for. this way, it can allow for more flexibility! ie. you choose crown by txt but you can write for stray kids.

no smaus or smau dedicated chapters for this event. fake text oneshots will be accepted so long as it adheres to the prompt of this event. 

fic word counts must be at least 300 words and a maximum of 4,000 words. be gracious of the keep reading tool.

any glorification or inclusion of triggering topics will not be allowed. 

PLEASE DO NOT PLAGIARIZE OTHER CREATORS’ WORKS. 

if you intend on writing a nsfw piece, please make sure that the idol in the fic is of age. we will only accept idols born in the year of 2002 and older. minors are not allowed to write nsfw. 

for our visuals and gfx creators, it’s pretty much free game. as mentioned in the insights half, content may be used from an idol/group’s debut mv, debut era, etc. still, to make it unique please use your favorite lyric(s) of the debut song as your caption! 

members are not required to participate in this event!

if you do choose to participate in this event, a reblog with your clarification and indication would be appreciated as well as a response in our discord server!

LOADING….FINAL WORDS

as mentioned, our discord server will have a dedicated channel for event submissions where you can plug your content for this event on the specified dates. if you are not in our server, remember to use our k-labels and especially our kl: debut tag so it’s easy for us to find it! if we have not reblogged your work please reach out to us. 

once again, thank you to anyone who is interested in participating. we look forward to your submissions! let's appreciate these firsts for everything and the special time in an idol’s life that is their debut. 

[shvroyism]

just realized seblaine is very klaroline coded

[cassatine]

Rhaenyra getting more shit for staying on Dragonstone instead of in King's Landing to play the political game or whatever than Viserys gets for recalling Otto as Hand, thus pretty much handing power to the faction he knows to be his heir's political opponents and metaphorically shooting Rhaenyra in the political kneecaps, is one of the most Takes in a fandom full of Takes

[kazifatagar]

Johor Speaker Proposes Moving Kuala Lumpur to Safer Location

Datuk Dr Mohd Puad Zarkashi, Speaker of the Johor State Legislative Assembly, suggested relocating Kuala Lumpur to a safer area, free from floods and landslides. In a Facebook post, he proposed renaming it TL (Tanpa Lumpur).  Johor speaker proposes moving Kuala Lumpur  Puad criticised the absence of Dr Zaliha Mustafa, Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, at the recent landslide site on…

[rynnthefangirl]

“I don’t get why people are so mad about the Mad Queen, Dany’s character has been building to this and it makes perfect sense for her!”

Okay, so even if we pretend for a second that Dany burning KL at the time and in the way she did made sense (it didn’t), there’s a whole other element as to why the Mad Queen arc was SO infuriating. And that is because for two seasons the entire logic of the show bends backwards until it breaks in order to get Dany to the point where they could try to justify that act.

Let’s look at some examples:

Tyrion instructs Dany to invade Casterly Rock, leaving Highgarden unprotected. It makes zero sense for a character renowned for their intelligence to propose this. CR is a defensive stronghold that offers no tactical advantage to a Conquerer, while Highgarden is one of Dany’s strongest allies with the funds to support her conquest. Dany loses House Tyrell and the Reach because of this.

Tyrion also advises Dany to send some of her most valuable men Beyond the Wall to capture a wight to convince Cersei of their existence. Again, this makes no sense for Tyrion to propose. He of all people should know that Cersei is a deranged narcissist who could never be trusted. I guess Tyrion kind of forgot his sisters central character traits. Dany loses a dragon because of this.

Dany also would not have lost Viserion if she had not arrived in time to rescue Jon and the others. But lucky for them (and unlucky for Viserion), ravens can now fly from the wall to Dragonstone in a single night.

“Dany kind of forgot about the iron fleet.” Apparently this Conquerer queen heading south for war just didn’t send out any sort of scouts, and entirely forgot about one of the like two forces that she needs to watch out for. None of her war advisors remember this either. She loses Rhaegal and Missandei because of this.

Cersei decides to behead Missandei as opposed to keeping her prisoner in the Red Keep in order to discourage Dany from just burning it down.

The Iron Fleet— which would later fail to strike down Drogon despite firing dozens of scorpions— is able to take Rhaegal down with two back to back perfect shots. Also apparently they can see Rhaegal well enough to do that, but neither Rhaegal nor Drogon nor Dany were able to see them.

Upon coming to Westeros, Dany has three dragons, a huge army of Unsullied, a huge army of Dothraki, a portion of the Iron Fleet, the full support of Highgarden with all their wealth and armies and probably much of their Bannermen, and the backing of Dorne. Dany is told that this is not enough, and she will not be able to take KL without tons of innocent bloodshed. Dany then proceeds to lose 2/3 dragons, Highgarden, Dorne, the Iron Fleet, and a huge portion of her Unsullied and Dothraki armies. In exchange, she gets an army of tired unmotivated northerners. Meanwhile Cersei obtains all of Highgardens wealth, the Golden Company, the Iron Fleet, and a massive force of scorpions. Dany proceeds to take Kings Landing and force a surrender with virtually zero civilian bloodshed.

Dany is portrayed as unreasonable and irrational for wanting to immediately attack Kings Landing with her full force. This perceived irrationality is the basis for her advisors questioning and betraying her. Dany is later proved correct in all of her courses of action when— again— she forces KL surrender quickly and cleanly and with virtually no civilian bloodshed.

Varys, a character renowned for his patience and ability to play the game and wait to strike until the opportune moment, a man who sat through Joffrey’s reign and did nothing, suddenly feels that Daenerys (who has not done anything worse than what Varys already knew her capable of when he decided to support her) is such a risk that he tries to poison her before she has even defeated Cersei for him. Again, the supposed reckless plan that Varys betrays Dany for is later proven to have been the correct plan.

Cersei faces no backlash from any of her actions. Nobody cares that she blew up the Westerosi Vatican. Nobody cares that she murdered the Queen of Westeros. Nobody cares that she helped orchestrate the fall death of Ned Stark and bears responsibility for the subsequent war and massacre of many of the remaining starks. Nobody cares that she is very very unlikely to accept Northern Independence, and very likely to hold a grudge against the north and house stark and seek to wipe them out. Cersei faces zero criticism or opposition from anyone besides Daenerys, and dethroning her is treated as an unnecessary inconvenience that nobody really cares that much about, and are only doing because Dany wants to.

These are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head. There are surely many many more.

Dany was too OP coming into season 7. As such, in order to make the plot work and reach their predetermined Mad Queen ending, the very fabric of the universe twisted and warped for the explicit purpose of taking away everything she had and loved. Dumbass plans from characters known for the intelligence, fast travel, discarding of the “action and consequence” internal logic of the show for Dany’s opposition, forgetting of basic war time strategy. Cersei’s forces are a formidable threat when Dany needs to look reckless and bad for wanting to attack Kings Landing. Cersei’s forces then proceed to not be a threat at all and collapse like a tower of cards when Dany needs to look awful and evil for burning down a city that surrendered so easily.

So yeah, even if in that moment you believe Dany would burn down Kings Landing, the fact that Dany fans had to sit there and watch as every single aspect of the show was manipulated in the most illogical way for the sole purpose of making her the villain…? Is it really in character if the fundamental logic of the universe has to change in order for it to happen?

[2rats1gogh]

I know people have this fantasy that Helaena would marry some Stark, Tully or Tyrell but a fantasy is truly what it is.

If she married Aegon or not, Helaena was never going anywhere. She claimed one of the biggest dragons in the world as a child, a female dragon who has laid eggs. Her only choices were always going to be one of her brothers or her nephews HAD THEY NOT been bastards. Or maybe it would have been a Hightower cousin, or one of Corlys Velaryon’s nephews but whoever her husband was, he was never going to be the Warden of anything or the Lord of his own castle. Helaena was never going to leave Kingslanding.

Alicent may have wanted her daughter close to her to protect her because of Helaena’s nature and because of her own experiences as a child bride but Viserys (who doesn’t know Helaena or give a damn about her personally) was definitely not marrying Helaena out to someone powerful and putting more trueborn obstacles in Rhaenyra’s way when he already had 3 trueborn Valyrian looking sons who would marry someday.

Targaryen daughters may marry out for a generation but their child is expected to marry back in. Daella was married into house Arryn but Aemma was married back in. Also to note that Daella was a second wife and her husband already had heirs, Visarra had she not died would have been married to a Lord who had already married several times and had already had heirs. Their sons would hold no lands, raise no armies full of vassal houses of their own. Rhaenys’s mother married into House Targaryen and Rhaenys married into house Velaryon and gave house Velaryon 2 more dragon riders in addition to herself. Thats why bringing her line back into the family was an important issue for the Targaryens. Helaena- a Dragon rider who could be fertile as her mother in her early years- would’ve given a non Valyrian house Valyrian blood and more potential Dragon riders.

Say Helaena marries an inheriting son of some Lord Paramount. Let’s give her 2 future Dragon riders and possibly a third as Maelor was too young when he was murdered at Rhaenyra’s request. This is 4 Dragons to whichever house she married into. These 4 dragons have an entire army behind them. They have legitimacy. What if her husband and father in law decide that the throne should be her son’s (like Rhaenys attempted to secure it on behalf of Laenor at the Great council) because Rhaenyra committed treason, sons are bastards and by law they can’t inherit anything (it’s high time we acknowledge that Rhaenyra, Laenor, Harwin, Viserys and Corlys were all breaking the law or complicit in the breaking of it.)

Team Black would hate Helaena Lady of house Stark/Tyrell/Tully/Lannister/Martell with a husband and a supportive extended family to back her because she would always choose her family over Rhaenyra’s like she does in canon.

So people need to stop blaming Alicent for this and realize that Helaena’s options were very limited and remember that in this world it’s normally a Father’s job to organize their daughter’s betrothals. HOTD seems to have thrown this piece of Lore out of the window in favor of trying to make Alicent look like a villain and for stupid scenes like Rhaenyra proposing the betrothal of the twins to their Grandmother instead of their father that she’s married to and lives with.

Literally this.

I never understood why it was so difficult for people to understand why Alicent decided to marry Helaena to Aegon. It always made sense to me personally. There are two main reasons to this:

a) Helaena is a very vulnerable girl, more vulnerable than anyone. By marrying her to Aegon, Alicent keeps her close to herself, in KL, where no one could hurt her.

b) Helaena as a dragonrider is very valuable. If she marries to some remote lord and then they pledge allegiance to Rhaenyra for whatever reason, TG is fucked and they lose a dragon. They need Dreamfyre if they want to win this war.

Helaena also couldn’t marry Jace or any other of Rhaenyra’s bastards, for a very simple reason. They are literally bastards and everyone knows it, and she would’ve become a hostage during the Dance. Also, the realm most likely would never accept Jace as a king, because no matter how kind and nice he is, he is still a bastard and that would cause a lot for problems.

[blackcat419]

Rewriting HotD: Plot breakdown of Fire and Blood the Dance of the Dragons

Part 1: 101 A.C. To 129 A.C.

The following is an in depth plot breakdown of F&B where character moments, plot beats, difference in sources, and missing details will all be analyzed and possible solutions proposed. The timeline will start in 101 A.C. with the first great council as where the seeds of the dance were thoroughly sowed and watered to the death of Jaehaera in 133 A.C.

This is the first part of my rewriting HotD series. The next part will talk more about character arcs and expanding on them using the enneagram as a jumping off point.

Page numbers will be cited from my copy of fire and blood the 2022 Trade Paperback Tie-in Edition.

Legend

Bold for the year

Italic for character moments

Blue for Orwyle’s account

Purple for Munkun’s A True Telling

Green for Septon Eustace’s The Reign of King Viserys

Red for Mushroom’s The Testimony of Mushroom

Orange for rumors that have no source

Pink for minor sources where their credibility and bias will be discussed when they come up

(Parenthesis) will be used when I deem it necessary to comment on the story either about the plot or how the fandom views the story.

[brackets] will be used for when I want to add real world historical context.

Where Gyldayn does not identify which source he is using or which sources disagree with eachother, it will be assumed that all sources agree with each other.

Biases of sources

While each source is biased towards one claimant over another, this is too simple of an understanding of these sources. Each source is pushing their own understanding of the world, either implicitly or not.

Orwyle wrote his account after being arrested by Cregan Stark and thrown into the black cells. He served as Grand Maester after the death of Mellos in 217, was thrown in the black cells when Rhaneyra took KL in 130, released by Ser Perkin later that year, he was then imprisoned again in 131 by Cregan where he wrote his accounts, he escaped and was re-imprisoned and continued writing his account, and he was later executed in 133. His bias is based in trying to save his own life by appealing to Cregan and trying to show he wasn’t a traitor. So while biased towards Rhaenyra, he’s biased towards making himself look as best as possible with motivations of saving his own life. He’s a primary source from his stationing as Grand Maester till Rhaenyra takes Kings landing and from when Rhaenyra flees Kings Landing and he’s re-imprisoned by Cregan. While Orwyle is imprisoned, he can only be a second hand source at best.

Munkun bases his work on the writings of Orwyle and takes up the position of Grand Maester in 131 when Cregan removed Orwyle. Munkun uses a lot of Orwyle’s sources but because Orwyle is currently writing his own account, I believe Munkun is using his Maester notes which could be less biased as Orwyle wasn’t writing them to help save his own life. Munkun also had access to Orwyle to talk about his recollection of the war. Munkun is a second hand source for anything happening before 131 and only a first hand source for Kingslanding after 131.

Eustace wrote his work after the war. He served as septon to the red keep from Viserys’ death until Aegon III’s reign and his dismissal by Unwin Peake. The Sept has been in conflict recently with the Targaryens leading to the dissolution of the faith militant and the implementation of Targaryens exceptionalism doctrine. Eustace can be seen as biased against the Targaryens in general because of this conflict. Eustace also shies away from salacious accounts, he doesn’t like Rhaenyra, and thinks Northmen are savage. He is a first hand source for much of what happens in the red keep.

Mushroom’s account was written down by an unknown author and covers Mushroom’s time as a fool for King Viserys and later Princess Rhaenyra. Mushroom was in Kings Landing as fool for King Viserys until 113 when he left with Rhaenyra for dragon stone, he returns in 126 with Rhaenyra to Kings Landing but leaves before Viserys’ death in 129, he returns in 130 when Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing, he remains in Kings Landing when Rhaenyra flees, he remains in Kingslanding until Manfryd Mooton travels to Braavos to escape the gloom of the red keep. Mushroom is first and foremost an entertainer and tells his story to entertain instead of inform. He is biased towards Rhaenyra as her fool but he is more biased towards a fun and salacious story. He’s a first hand source for Kingslanding until 113, a bit after 126, and after 130 till he leaves for Braavos. In the times in between he’s a firsthand source for Dragonstone and at best a second hand source for Kings landing.

101 A.C. The First Great Council

Otto arrives at Kings Landing with his wife and children, Alicent becomes the constant companion of King Jaehaerys, and Jaehaerys mistakes her for his daughter Seara pg. 351

---

Alicent: Alicent is described caring for the king like a personal care assistant would do in modern times.

(The word ‘precocious’ is used to describe 15 year old Alicent here and many have taken it to mean she was sexually developed and sleeping with Jaehaerys. I disagree as precocious means quickly developing but is not exclusive to sexual development. Because it’s quickly followed by descriptions of Alicent assisting Jaehaerys as a live in care person, I believe this is meant to show that Alicent is more mature mentally and is taking on the caretaker role earlier than she is expected to.)

103 A.C. The king is dead, long live the king

Jaehaerys dies while Alicent reads Barth’s ‘Unnatural History’, his body is burned and entered on Dragonstone, and women reportedly tore their garments in Dorne. [the act of tearing ones garments from their body was seen as a way to mourn in ancient times. Cleopatra reportedly rendered her garments when she learned that Anthony attempted suicide.] pg. 351-2

Viserys ascends the throne, Aemma has already suffered multiple miscarriages and lost a boy shortly after birth, Rhaenyra is 6. Pg. 352

The practice of placing eggs in cradles is picked back up around this time and many dragons are hatching in the dragon pit. Pg. 352

Criston first comes to notice at the melee at Maidenpool where he defeated Daemon, gave Rhaenyra the laurel and asked for her favor, and unhorsed the cargyll twins in the joust. pg 358-9

---

Viserys: Described as generous, amiable nature, and well loved by lords and smallfolks. Pg 352

Viserys & Aemma: host lots of feasts and tourneys and lavish gold, offices, and honors on their favorites. Pg 354

Otto: described as proud, brusque (curt), and haughty. The longer he served the more power he gained. Pg 354

Daemon: Ambitious, impetuous, moody, charming, hot-tempered, bored by Rhae Royce, the Vale, and governing. Pg 354

Rhaenyra: precocious, bright, bold, and beautiful. Pg 354

(Precocious is also used to describe Rhaenyra here and I believe it’s meant to draw a parallel between our two leads. Both are smarter than their years)

104 A.C. Rhaenyra Takes Flight

Rhaenyra: becomes a dragon rider at age 7. Syrax is a claimed dragon, not a cradle egg. She’s bold and dragon-riding at a very early age. Pg 354

105 A.C. Heir for a day

Viserys announces that Aemma is pregnant again. She dies giving birth to a son named Baelon who dies shortly after Pg 358-9

Criston Cole is appointed to the kingsguard at age 23 pg 358

Lyonel Strong is invited by Viserys to Kings landing and brings his 4 kids, his two daughters become Rhaenyra's hand maidens, Harwins joins the gold cloaks, and Larys joins the king's confessors. Pg 359

Observed but by who? Daemon is seen saying 'Heir for a day' while drunk in the street of Silk. The book gives us two sources for the rumon, the sex worker sitting on Daemon's lap or one of his drinking buddies. Why would his friend or someone he pays turn on him? Pg 359-60

Viserys names Rhaenyra heir and held a lavish ceremony for lords to swear fealty pg 360

Daemon leaves Kingslanding with Mysaria for Dragonstone and gets her pregnant and presents her with a dragon egg. pg 360

Viserys tells Daemon to send Mysaria away and return to Rhae Royce. Daemon does so, Mysaria returns to Lys and loses the child.

Viserys is suggested to remarry. Runciter suggests Laena Velaryon who is 12. Viserys decides to marry Alicent who is now 18. Pg 361

Rumors at Court suggest that Otto is moving above his station and planned for Alicent to marry Viserys. The rumors also question Alicent's virginity and wonder if she slept with him before Aemma died. Again, who is spreading these rumors? Unlike with Daemon, we don't even get a vague mention at who to judge them better. pg 361

Mushroom restates the rumors above along with Alicent doing 'more than just reading' for Jaehaerys. I again do not believe these rumors as they seem to come up only when Otto and Alicent are advancing politically. pg 361

Daemon and Corlys are both upset at the news of Viserys marrying Alicent. Pg 361

Laena is betrothed to the sea lord of Braavos' son. pg 375

---

Viserys: makes Rhaenyra his cupbearer at age 8 and is not seen without her after. He drinks a lot and Rhaenyra is there to serve him wine. Pg 354. Refuses to name Daemon heir but forgives any of his offense. Pg 355 gets mad enough at Daemon and commands him which he rarely does. pg 360 Viserys is also uncharacteristically firm when choosing to marry Alicent and not 'for reasons of state' (perhaps after Viserys lost his wife, son, and his brother left Kings Landing, he wanted someone who would take care of him like Alicent did Jaehaerys. I do not think they were sleeping together before Aemma's death.) Pg 361.

Daemon: Takes the lead of the gold cloaks and gives them better armor, made the city more orderly, and had an 'eye for an eye' style of punishment. Takes an interest in Mysaria. Wants to be named heir but isn't. Pg 355 Speaks of his brother in disdain after being commanded to leave dragonstone. Pg 360.

Rhaenyra: is smitten with Criston (she is 9 at this time so childhood crush) and has him named her personal protector.

Criston: (we don't have much written on his character, just how others react to him. The ladies are smitten and daemon hates him but Cole isn't described like how the other characters are with a list of traits.) pg 359

Lyonel: mistaken for a brute and dumb but just a large, silent, and very smart man. Pg 359

Laena: Fiery, bold, adventurous. Claimed Vhagar at 12 or younger which is very bold and brave. Pg 360-1. The Maester of High Tide says that Laena is more interested in dragon riding than in boys. Pg 361.

Unknown Years between 103-105 A.C.

Eustace, Mushroom, and Otto's letter to his brother tells us that Otto greatly disliked Daemon. Otto's own writings on his feelings about Daemon should be believed as its his own testimony backed up by other sources. But do take his claim that Daemon would be 'a second Maegor the Cruel' with a pinch of salt. Pg 358

---

Otto: hates Daemon and uses his influence as hand to remove him from each position Viserys gives him. Pg 358

Daemon & Rhaenyra: Rhaenyra is fond of Daemon and he brings her gifts when he crosses the narrow sea. Pg 355

Viserys: Doesn't try to claim a dragon (Viserys is the first Targaryen who's dragon died before him and had the opportunity to claim a dragon, but never did) Pg 355. Hates conflict and tries to make peace between Otto and Daemon (we'll see him using this tactic again soon) pg 358.

106 A.C. The Marriage and War begin

Viserys marries Alicent and Velaryons are absent. Pg 361-2

Daemon meets with Corlys and they plan to invade the stepstones and take them from the Triarchy. Pg 362.

Viserys supports Daemon by giving gold for the war. Pg 364

---

Alicent: calls Rhaenyra 'daughter' at her wedding. Filling that caregiver role?

Corlys: When slighted, he takes to war to assert his power.

Daemon: When pushed away from his brother, he seeks power through war.

Viserys: tries to fix tensions between him and Daemon by using his power as king to support him. Viserys is reported to say 'let daemon play at war, its keeps him out of trouble' pg 364

107 A.C. Aegon

Aegon is born. pg 365

108 A.C. Crab Ate

Daemon defeats Craghas Crabfeeder and cuts off his head with Darksister. Pg 363

Cregan Stark is born ph 416

109 A.C. King of the stepstones

Daemon and Corlys control all but 2 of the Stepstones islands. Pg 364

Helaena is born. pg 365

Otto is removed as Hand after pushing for Aegon to be made heir and Lyonel Strong takes his place Pg 365

---

Daemon: Declares himself king of the stepstones. Pg 364

Corlys: Places the stepstone crown on Daemon's head. Pg 634

110 A.C. War returns

The Triarchy and Dorne unite to continue fighting in the stepstones. Pg 364

Aemond is born half the size of Aegon but twice as fierce Pg 365

Unknown Years between 106 A.C. - 110 A.C.

Lords and knights seek Rhaenyra's favor but shes only interested in Criston Cole.

---

Alicent: Alicent says at court 'Ser criston protects the princess from her enemies but who protects the princess from ser criston?' Pg 365. no longer using 'daughter' and may be faining concern or actual concern for the princess's virtue around Criston.

Viserys: Keeps Rhaenyra as heir but doesn't argue why when questioned, just states as fact. Interesting level of stubbornness pg 365. Hates the conflict between his wife and daughter but doesn't address the root of the problem and just uses his ability as king to keep the balance through parties and gifts. Pg 365

111 A.C. The second quarrel

Visery's and Alicent's 5th wedding anniversary and Alicent and Rhaenyra wear their signature dresses to assert their sides.

The Blacks have a better tourney performance with Criston as Rhaenyra's champion. He unhorses Alicent's unknown champion, two cousins, and her younger brother Gwayne. Pg 366 (this perhaps shows that Rhaenyra is in a better position than Alicent?)

Daemon rides in the tourney but hasn't declared for a side. Pg 366

Daemon remains in Kingslanding for half a year.

Daemon returned to his old goldcloak friends in the street of silk and treated Alicent with respect but no love. He spends a lot of time with Rhaenyra, gives her gifts, and mocks the greens. pg 367

Grand Maester Runciter says Daemon and Viserys quarrled again and Daemon leaves for the step stones again. pg 367

Eustace says Daemon seduced Rhaenyra and took her virginity. The two were discovered by Ser Arryk and brought to Viserys. Rhaenyra begs to marry Daemon but Viserys denies it and confines Rhaenyra to her room and sends Daemon away. Pg 367-8

Mushroom says Rhaenyra wanted Criston so Daemon tutored her with kissing lessons, touching men for pleasure, but they did not have sex. Criston was horrified and spurned Rhaneyra. The story comes out in part thanks to mushroom. Daemon tells Viserys to let him marry Rhaenyra and Viserys tells Daemon to leave Pg 368-9.

Daemon leaves for the stepstones pg 369

---

Rhaenyra: the act of wearing 'the dramatic red and black dress' is Rhaenyra's first step into the feud with Alicent. She is 14. following Eustace and Mushroom's account, we get the idea that Rhaenyra is now exploring sexually and perhaps looking for love in either Daemon or Criston who are both denied to her pg 369

Daemon: gives his crown over to Viserys, perhaps showing that family is more important to Daemon than power. Pg 367 Eustace and Mushroom both agree that Daemon was explicitly active with Rhaenyra and its seems in both cases was doing to to grasp at power. pg 369

112 A.C. Rhaenyra's Suitors

Grand Maester Runciter dies and is replaced by Mellos. Pg 369

Lord Commander Ser Harrold Westerling dies and is replaced by Criston Cole. Pg 369

Rhaenyra visits the Trident and the sons of lord blackwood and bracken fight over her in a duel, a younger son of house Frey asks her to marry him, the Lannister twins quarrel over her. pg 369 (while not stated, its pretty clear that Rhaenyra is on tour looking for a husband)

---

Viserys: declines to wed Rhaenyra to Aegon stating 'The boy is Alicent's own blood... She wants him on the throne.' interesting separation of himself from his son and seeing Alicent wanting her son to be king as a bad thing. Again, Viserys declines to fix the root problem.

113 A.C. Betrothal of Fire and Sea

Rhaenyra is betrothed to Laenor and concerns about him being gay are dismissed. pg 370

Rhaenyra refuses to marry Laenor, also refers to Alicent's kids as half brothers. Only relents when Viserys threatens to disinherit her. pg 370.

Eustace says that Criston asks Rhaenyra to run away with him and Rhaenyra declines. Pg 370-1 (I believe Eustace more as its in line with Rhaenyra choosing power over personal happiness or freedom)

Mushroom says Rhaenyra asked Criston to take her virginity and Criston refuses 'even when Rhaneyra used the arts she had learned from Daemon' Pg 371 (so simple sexy pose or blowjob? probably just sexy pose). Rhaenyra then has sex with Harwin Strong and Mushroom claims to have found them together the next morning. pg 371

Rhaenyra leaves for Driftmark with the strong sisters, mushroom, and Harwin as her new champion.

Dalton Greyjoy is born (world of ice and fire)

---

Rhaenyra:Rhaenyra chooses power over her own happiness by agreeing to wed Laenor to keep her spot as heir. Eustace says that Rhaenyra begs for Viserys' forgiveness after he threatens to disinherit her while mushroom says she spits in his face. Pg 370 Eustace and Mushroom dispute how much she was willing to grovel for her father's forgiveness.

Viserys: uncharacteristically strict and threatens to disinherit Rhaenyra if she doesn't marry Laenor. Perhaps he wants everything to go the way he imagines it and does not want people upsetting his ideas for the future?

Criston: turns from being loyal to Rhaenyra to loathing her. Pg 371 (was this because Rhaenyra tried to seduce him or scorned him?)

114 A.C. Marriage of Fire and Sea

Rhaenyra and Laenor are married. She's 17 and he's 20. pg 372

Rhaenyra gives Harwin her favor and Laenor gives Jeoffrey Lonmouth his favor. Pg 372 (Showing that these two pairs are both lovers now). Criston takes Alicent's favor after being denied Rhaenyra's Pg 372 (was Criston still holding out hope for Rhaenyra?)

Criston wins the tourney, breaking Harwin's collar bone and putting Jeoffrey in a coma where he dies 6 days later. Pg 372

The animosity between Rhaenyra and Alicent was noted by envoys in letters to Pentos, Braavos, and Old Volantis Pg 372

Laenor returns to driftmark while Rhaenyra remains in Kingslanding. pg 372

Eustace says Rhaenyra and Laenor only shared a bed a dozen times (12) and Mushroom adds that Qarl Correy joined them as well and Rhaenyra would either watch them or seek out Harwin. pg 373

Rhaenyra's pregnancy is announced and Jacaerys is born a 'large strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose' pg 374

Alicent gives birth to Daeron who is noted as traditional Targaryen coloring (pale hair and purple eyes) pg 374

Viserys orders Jace and Daeron share the same wet nurse. pg 374

Addam of Hull is born pg 443

---

Laenor: was only knighted before wedding Rhaenyra. Lover of Jeoffrey Lonmouth and according to mushroom sat by his bed till he died. pg 372

Criston: leaves Rhaenyra's party to join Alicent being either scorned or repulsed by Rhaenyra enough to fight in a blind fury.

Rhaenyra: doesn't leave with Laenor and stays in Kingslanding. Is clearly not interested in Laenor and prefers spending time with Harwin her new champion.

Viserys: Again does not address the main issue between the blacks and greens and instead tries to have Jace and Daeron be raised closer together.

115 A.C. Daemon and Laena travel diaries

Rhae Royce dies and runestone passes to her nephew pg 374

Daemon leaves the war in the stepstones to try and claim runestone but is denied and told to stay out of the Vale by Jeyne Arryn. pg 374

Daemon leaves for Driftmark where he duels and 'makes short work' (unknown is betrothal is broken or he dies) the sea lord of Braavos' son. He then marries Laena and they fly across the narrow sea first to Pentos, then across the Disputed Lands, then to Old Volantis, Rhoyne, Qohor, and Norvos. Pg 375-6

Rhaenyra gives birth to Lucerys in the later part of the year. Eustace says that Laenor and Harwin were by her side. Pg 376

Rhaenyra leaves for Dragonstone as she and Alicent can't stand each other pg 376

Laenor is said to visit "frequently" (frequently is in quotations implying that he is not actually visiting frequently?) pg 376

Alyn of Hull is born pg 443

---

Daemon: again tries to claim power by claiming Runestone but is denied. He then marries Laena either for love as the singers says but singers are known to romanticize things. More cynical men say because she gave him a way to keep from falling in the line of succession more. But Laena is not ahead of Daemon in the line of succession and marrying her won't stop him from being further down the line so I'm more inclined to believe he fancied her. (perhaps Laena and Daemon both fought in the stepstones or met more there?) pg 375

Laena: we can discern that Laena is very adventurous and loved to travel.

Viserys: Is happy to meet Luke and doesn't seem worried about him not looking Targaryen.

Alicent: According to Mushroom told Laenor to keep trying to get one that looks like him which could show that Alicent is aware that Luke and Jace are not Laenor's and is slyly letting him know she knows.

Rhaenyra: She now decides to leave kingslanding for dragonstone when she had previously chosen to stay in kingslanding.

116 A.C. The Second Quarrel ends

Baela and Rhaena are born and called "Daemon's first trueborn children" Pg 376 (Implying he has bastard children?)

Viserys and Daemon reconcile over Daemon now being a father. Pg 376-7

---

Daemon: seeks his brother's forgiveness again.

Viserys: forgives his brother again believing fatherhood changed him.

117 A.C. Bastardy Rumors Spread

Jeoffrey is born pg 377

Rumors spread in the Greens that Harwin is the father of Rhaenyra's sons. These rumors would support Alicent in getting Rhaenyra out of being heir but we know that Viserys does not care. Mushroom says Harwin is the father and Mellos hints at Harwin being the father. Eustace acknowledges the rumors but dismisses them. (Interestingly Eustace claims Rhaenyra slept with Daemon but does not believe her children were fathered by Harwin). Pg 377

The Velaryon boys are given dragon eggs by royal decree. (The Targaryen boys are not given dragon eggs in contrast) pg 377

Rhaenyra gains weight after childbirth. Mushroom says she resented Alicent for staying slim. Pg 377

Eustace says Viserys placed Jace on his knee and said the iron throne would be his one day. Pg 377

The Targaryen boys and Velaryon boys become rivals but still train and study together Pg. 377-8

Rhaenyra is close with Laena and Daemon Pg 378

---

Rhaenyra: is fond and more than fond of Laena perhaps implying a romantic interest or just a very close friendship? Pg 378

Viserys: has eggs placed with the Velaryon boys but not his own kids with Alicent. Perhaps wanting to dispel rumors as quickly as possible and assert their legitimacy.

118 A.C. The Betrothals

Viserys agrees for Rhaenyra to have Jace (4) and Luke (3) betrothed to Baela and Rhaena (2). pg 378

119 A.C. Laena Conceives

Laena gets pregnant again and Rhaenyra joins her on dirftmark. Pg 378

120 A.C. The Red Spring

Laena dies of childbed fever (basically infection from unsanitary conditions) and gives birth to a boy dragon baby who quickly dies Pg 378

Daemon flies to Dragonstone to get Rhaenyra's more skilled Maester Geradrys but he arrives too late pg 378

Mushroom says Rhaenyra and Daemon sat vigil over Laena's body and she comforted him while he grieved pg 378

Merchants at a fair in Spicetown say Laenor and Qarl quarreled and Qarl stabbed Laenor to death before fleeing. A large crowd of people are more likely to have the true story as it's harder to sway them all. Eustace also agrees with the merchants and says Qarl was motivated by jealousy of Laenor leaving him. Mushroom says Daemon payed Qarl to kill Laenor to make room for himself as Rhaenyra's husband. pg 379

Corlys offers a reward for Qarl's head but he's never caught. pg 379

Aegon and Helaena are both dragon riders of Sunfrye and Dreamfyre respectively pg 380

Daeron has Tessarion but has not ridden her yet. Pg 380

Aemond claims Vhagar but is ambushed and fights the velaryon boys. Luke slashes out Aemond's right eye (weirdly changed to his left in the show) pg 380-1

Viserys tries to make each side apologize to one another. Alicent demands Luke's eye and Rhaenyra says Aemond should be questioned "sharply" (tortured). pg 381

Aemond claims Aegon told him the Velaryon boys are strong and Aegon says everyone can tell. pg 382

Lyonel and Harwin die in Harrenhal by fire. Pg 383

Rumors say the fire was either a mischance or black Harren's curse. Mushroom says Corlys set the fire to get revenge for Laenor being cucked (why now after three kids?). Eustace says Daemon did it to remove his love rival. Another rumor was Larys did it to get Harrenhal as his seat. Mellows says Viserys ordered Harwin's death to hide Rhaenyra's affair with him and that Lyonel's death was unforeseen because he wasn't supposed to accompany his son back home. Pg 383

Viserys sends for Otto to replace Lyonel as hand. Pg 383

Rhaenyra remarries to Daemon with both of their previous spouses having not been dead for half a year. pg 383 Eustace says they married in secret knowing Viserys would not allow it. Mushroom says Rhaenyra was again pregnant and did not want a clear bastard. Pg 384

Rhaenyra gives birth to Aegon at the end of the year and according to Mushroom, named him Aegon to slight Alicent. pg 384-5

---

Laena: wants to ride Vhagar one last time before she dies showing her love and connection to her dragon.

Daemon: must have loved Laena a lot to try so desperately to save her life.

Rhaenyra: comforts Daemon (non-sexually) after Laena dies. But remarries to Daemon quite quickly, perhaps showing not desire for Daemon but need for a powerful ally?

Viserys: makes fun of Aemond by saying he can claim an egg or hatchling if he's bold enough. This also shows that Aemond was not given a cradle egg. pg 380. Viserys is more concerned about rumors of Rhaenyra's kids' bastardy than Aemond losing an eye, one being treated with threats of tongues being removed while the other is forced to kiss and make up. Viserys also decides to not make Rhaenyra Hand to avoid more conflict between her and Alicent, again unwilling to address tension and rather ignore it till he can't. Pg 383

122 A.C. Viserys and Sibling Marriage

Rhaeanyra gives birth to Viserys and his dragon egg does not hatch. Pg 384

Viserys weds Aegon (15) to Helaena (13). Pg 384

---

Viserys: interestingly weds Aegon and Helaena together, most likely to keep Alicent from seeking marriage alliances.

Aegon: Lazy and somewhat sulky. Drinks and fondles serving girls.

Helaena: Happy and described as making a fine mother (so caring and attentive?)

123 A.C. Twins Born

Jaehaerys and Jaehaera are born. Both get and hatch cradle eggs. Jaehaerys is polydactly and Jaehaera is described as slow to grow. 385

Mushroom claims Aegon fathered a bastard boy on a maiden from the street of silk and a girl by one of his mother's maidservents. Pg 386 (How would he know this being on Dragonstone?)

126 A.C. Take his head

Daeron is sent to oldtown to be a cupbearer and squire for Lord Hightower. Pg 386

Corlys falls ill with fever and the issue of succession is raised. Pg 386

Corlys's nephew Vaemond claims he should be heir as Rhaenyra's kids are bastards. Rhaenyra has Daemon behead Vaemond and feeds his head to her dragon. Pg 386 Vaemond's younger cousins, his wife, and his sons flee to Kingslanding to plead their case and their tongues are removed. Pg 386

Viserys cuts his hand open on the throne had has two fingers removed. pg 387

Cregan overthrows his Uncle as regent and imprisons him and his cousins. Pg 416

---

Alicent: While it is not stated, I believe Alicent sent Daeron away for his own safety after Vaemond was killed.

Rhaenyra: Escalating what she's willing to do to keep power, no longer is she bending to Viserys' wishes like she did as a teen or sneaking behind his back, this is out-in-the-open murder.

Viserys: Again esculating his covering for Rhaenyra allowing her to order the death of another highborn.

127 A.C. The Feast for the lost fingers

Maelor is born and given a cradle egg Pg 386

Viserys holds a feast for his recovery and Rhaenyra and Alicent attend with all their children. The court chronicles record that the two sides looked to mend things. Mushroom says that once Viserys left, fighting broke out between the kids. Pg 387

Viserys stops sitting the iron throne and Mushroom claims to be entertaining the king. Pg 387

Maester Mellos dies and is replaced by Orwyle by the Citadel. Pg 388

---

The Velaryon and Targaryen Boys: All three (assuming Daeron and Jeoffrey are there as well despite not being mentioned) boys go out of their way to provoke eachother.

128 A.C.

Cregan’s wife Arra Norrey dies in child birth to his son and heir pg 416

Dalton avenges his uncle’s death in the Stepstones and claims the sea stone chair (world of ice and fire)

129 A.C. 3rd day of the 3rd moon

Helaena brings her children to Viserys' room and he tells them a story about Jaehaerys. Viserys dies in his sleep. Pg 390

---

Viserys: his last act is to tell a story of a Targaryen king to his grandchildren.

Thanks for reading the first half of the timeline breakdown for rewriting HotD!

[agentrouka-blog]

I also believe Littlefinger was never in love with Catelyn. He is as you say is acting out a fantasy and that fantasy is young Cat, the girl with whom he grew up and wanted to marry but not the actual woman i.e Catelyn who is married to Ned. The show murked this emotion from Baelish's POV when they had him propose marriage to Cat in second season whereas in the books Cat and Petyr never cross paths after she departs from KL. I don't think he had any intention of wanting Catelyn back and probably has realised that ship has sailed after she is married to Ned with five children which is why the "fantasy enactment" angle is truer for him and his relationship with Sansa. In fact he asked for her hand in marriage just after she becomes a political hostage. Catelyn is still alive at this time of the plot and nothing about the Red Wedding has taken motion.

I agree.

Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon's squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. (AGOT, Catelyn VII)

Why on earth would Littlefinger forgive Catelyn, then? She gave Brandon her favor for that duel, never visited him while he was recovering, and she never replied (or even read) the letter he had sent her after Brandon's death. She moved on as if he didn't matter - because he didn't matter.

Littlefinger is taking his vengeance on the entirety of Houses Tully and Stark, and Catelyn is part of both. He destroys her family, reacts not at all to her death. He has not loved Catelyn in a long time. He probably never really did. She was always part of a fantasy of belonging in a world he was only visiting as a ward. His "love" is as twisted as Lysa's.

His desire to reenact his childhood love fantasy with Sansa (like Tyrion does with Shae over Tysha, like Ygritte does with Jon over that kid who failed to steal her, really, like Jorah does with Dany over Lynesse...) exists alongside his vengeance plan, potentially influences it in the details. It will certainly prove his downfall. But it's not fuelled by love for Catelyn. Only by the hurt feelings of the past.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

https://www.tumblr.com/blissfulphilospher/748378340909531136/so-i-dont-know-why-i-am-posting-this-but-i-had?source=share

It's funny when these people pretend to like book! Rhaenyra, and when they explain why they like her, they basically describe her in the same way that people who hate her do.

También es irónico cómo estas personas se llaman a sí mismas "equipo de mujeres malvadas" y luego lloran y vilipendian a Rhaenyra porque no quería estar en una fiesta de cumpleaños donde le iban a faltar el respeto, y luego dicen que estaba siendo mala con un niño, del que ni siquiera ha hecho una broma inofensiva. ¿Se supone que debo creer que te gustan personajes como Cersei cuando ni siquiera soportas a un adolescente con razones justificables para estar enojado?

Yeah I've got manyyyy issues with people like op. Like you said, the way they describe Rhaenyra is...telling. As is how they describe Alicent.

First of all: op claims that Alicent tried to "mend the relationship" between Rhaenyra and Aegon. That's just false. Alicent proposed Viserys marry Aegon to Rhaenyra, in an attempt to get Aegon closer to the throne. Which is partially why Viserys refused to approve the match.

Op is engaging in a lot of speculation, like the claim that "Daemon manipulated Rhaenyra" into hating her siblings. There's literally no evidence that Rhaenyra hates her siblings prior to Luke's murder. Is she close to them? Not her brothers, no, but she did have some kind of relationship with Helaena, as is implied by her calling her "my sweet sister, Helaena."

I'm not going to go into how op sees Daemon, but I will say, how they view him and Rhaenyra is basically just how Hess does. Rhaenyra isn't allowed to form her own opinions on her family, negative or otherwise, and Daemon is an evil monster.

I will agree with op that Rhaenyra isn't a good person, however, that's the only time. The things op accuses Rhaenyra of are...really not true other than the fact that she fed Vaemond to Syrax.

They accuse her of "offering her brothers for Laenor...she hosted a lavish feast in a starving city, she was a woman and let the men do the fighting."

Let's unpack that. The quote op is referring to concerning Laenor is:

"My half-brothers would be more to his taste," [Rhaenyra] told the king.

Fire & Blood: Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

This is taken out of context in the worst possible way by op. Rhaenyra is arguing with her father about marrying Laenor, trying to convince him not to force her to marry him. She's referencing the fact that Laenor is gay, she's in no way "offering" her brothers to him. This is an intentional choice to interpret Rhaenyra's choices as they're written in the worst possible light.

Op continues this with a very tired argument many Rhaenyra antis use: that Rhaenyra feasted in KL. The only evidence of this happening is from Septon Eustace. A man who wasn't even in KL, was noted by the writers of F&B to be unreliable due to his hatred of Rhaenyra, and who literally crowned Aegon. So, using critical thinking, we can infere that the idea that Rhaenyra feasted in KL is extremely unlikely.

As for the fighting, yes Rhaenyra didn't fight. That was due to the fact that she had no training and was recovering from a traumatic miscarriage. Normally I wouldn't point this out as an issue, but op groups it in with Rhaenyra's "flaws". Somehow, Rhaenyra not fighting in battles is a mark against her as a person. Again, intentionally a bad faith interpretation.

No, I agree with op that HOTD's changes to Rhaenyra are shitty, but the reasons are just very off. For example:

I agree with parts of this, but I do want to point out a few things. Such as, why are they calling out Arya fans? Like what does that have to do with anything? I'm sure it's because Arya is a non-conforming woman, which op isn't a fan of, considering their seeming obsession with femininity. It shows how op's personal biases are influencing their view of both the show and the book.

I'm right there with you anon on the their spiel about Aegon's birthday. Rhaenyra was being disrespected and undermined by everyone after the birth of her brother. Is it any wonder that she wasn't excited to go to an event where everyone was expecting her to be disinherited? Op literally was just saying how they loved Rhaenyra "hating" her siblings lmao.

Op also complains about the white hart incident, as well as Aegon's prophecy. This is very much a revealing complaint. They said they hate Rhaenyra being made into the "protagonist" of the show. This is interesting since Rhaenyra is the protagonist of the Dance in the book too. She's morally gray, but it's still a fact; the greens are the antagonists and the blacks are the protagonists. The white hart was confirmation of Rhaenyra being the true heir, something which is also true in the book. I don't understand how that fact being affirmed is wrong.

As for Aegon's prophecy, this is something almost every single Rhaenyra anti has complained about. This is something GRRM himself told the showrunners he wanted, which some people complain is a retcon. It's not, the books aren't done yet, this is GRRM giving us new information about his unfinished work. It also confirmed how off the rails D&D's ending is according to what GRRM has planned for the books.

Anyway, op also really hates daemyra, another thing that's very much book accurate. Op purposefully chooses to ignore any textual evidence that daemyra was more than a political alliance, but they have a history of picking and choosing canon.

I very much agree with you anon about how shallow op's love of Cersei seems to be. They strike me as the kind of person who refuses to see the grayness GRRM is known for. After all, they are frothing at the mouth at the idea of Rhaenyra being a complex character, so I somehow doubt that they can appreciate Cersei's complexity.

[horizon-verizon]

List of HotD Inconsistencies:

(This list will be Continuously Added the more I realize where there is an inconsistency)

Daemon saying to Rhaenyra that he left her bc she "was a child" in episode 7 -- he was the one who said to Viserys to marry them for the sake of the House and that he wanted her, the only thing he asked Viserys in spite of all he wanted; he also said she was not a girl anymore (she's past Westerosi marriageable age and older than 18); Laena is younger than Rhaenyra in the show, yet Daemon married her not long after he left KL, assuming so since we have another time jump after episode 5; Rhaenys and Corlys had a larger age gap than either Daemyra or Aemma x Viserys/Viserys x Alicent and Corlys would have been attracted and talking to Rhaenys for a while before they married for her to be so adamant about marrying him when she was 16....yet the show changes all that

Alicent is adamant in saving Rhaenyra despite having tried to essentially get her and her kids killed or exiled for 10 years

Daemon himself had to claim Caraxes, he didn't bond with him when he was a baby or small child, yet he doesn't know how to comfort his daughter Rhaena about the same "issue" that is actually not an issue at all

a possible relationship with Criston Cole is framed and shit as if it were the most romantic and healthy relationship Rhaenyra could have had aside from the one with Harwin (who still is messing around with a person way younger than him who he had been attracted to since before she hit 18) -> the music and the actors' playfulness of episode 4, the hopefulness of Criston's proposal unpaired with any indication of what a delusion he's drawn up of who she is despite living and talking with her for years...and the Daemon is supposed to be framed as one of the moral villains and antagonists and worst persons in Rhaenyra's personal circle

[pt.2 of the one above] the show not taking advantage of Criston Cole witnessing the white stag approach Rhaenyra and thus (for him, at least, with his devotion to Andal beliefs and customs) show us how he reacts to the sign legitimizing Rhaenyra...and then deciding to abandon her -> making it seem as if a relationship between them would in any way be healthier than one with Daemon -> really, just presenting this whole idea that this is a good relationship and making their separation sem more Rhaenyra's fault than actually Criston's!

Rhaenyra knowing that the greens are plotting against her for years to install Aegon, having proposed to Daemon explicitly saying she needed him for her upcoming conflict with he greens, and then calling it "Daemon's war" and not wanting Daemon to shore up their defenses not immediately imprisoning Otto Hightower to have him right where she can keep him

Rhaenyra flip-flopping between showing strength to Otto or Daemon....then crying over a torn out page from a person who tried to kill/banish her and her sons

Rhaenyra being in any way affected by Alicent's page when she told Alicent before Alicent is essentially the biggest hypocrite AND Alicent has been trying to get her and her kids either killed or banished forever -> the page was specifically about Nymeria who would become the founder of the current House of Martell and remade the entire Dornish culture through her conquests and marriage to the then Martell Andal-only lord, aka, one of ASoiaF's women who was completely assured of her autonomous right to rule and responsible for a literal cultural reset that only benefited both herself as well as those she conquered for generation into current time, ahem genderless primogeniture....Alicent is trying to usurp Rhaenyra based on the "only males can rule" bullshit....you can't make this stuff up

Rhaenys absolutely knowing (or should know) that the greens could and would imprison or kill any of her grandkids, herself, and Corlys....yet allowing them to live in episode 9

Aemond supposedly being the son who "reads all the philosophies and prepared himself for leadership to protect his home and family"...then making the bright decision in antagonizing an envoy under someone else's home and killing him after chasing him down for more than 5 minutes tops -> Even if it weren't a decision, that would be even worse! If he knew he didn't have control over a dragon, AND didn't want to kill Luke, just to scare him (for 5 mins?)...why chase him down at all?! He's been riding Vhagar for years, so he either should have been way better at getting her to obey him OR he would have known that he couldn't control her all that well and avoid letting his emotions get the better of him. He would have known the risks, yet took them anyway! Then we have to assume that he actually wanted Luke dead and sought it out. That he did have control over Vhagar! Otherwise, we fall back again on him just being a dumbass, bc again, he said he studied to become better, have more emotional control, be more strategic, and smarter...but then pulls this? What a mess!

Criston Cole managing to get out of execution or imprisonment simply because Alicent said so, when he killed a man under Viserys' roof and that same man essentially having had guests rights...(digressing from the topic of inconsistencies and plotholes, this does not happen in the book -- Cole killed Joffrey during a tourney match, which both show and book audiences know are highly dangerous, so the point there was that Cole could get away with it on account of it being an already dangerous sport/event that is socially sanctioned; the book's telling of how Cole killed Joffrey makes more sense and has more potential to be emotionally more charged with helplessness)

*the Targs somehow not having an ounce of darker skin or kinkier/curlier hair despite making the Velaryon the exclusively black house and Viserys/Daemon/Rhaenys have 2 female Velaryon ancestors*

Rhaenyra showing a desire for vengeance for Luke but not Visenya, who died before Luke and who she lost while trying to hurry up and respond to the green threat herself without Daemon "interfering" (AND her calling the council at all, in the book, for the fact that she lost Visenya and the greens took her throne...again, going back to how she knows the greens want it)

episode 3, in the daytime Daemon (relatively way less armored than before) charges through the field without getting a single arrow to the head but in the 2nd episode (nighttime) an arrow pierces what looks to be his chest or shoulder while he is in full armor and on the mobile Caraxes. The entire thing, while entertaining and shocking, still makes about as much sense as Rhaenys bursting through the floor of the Dragonpit; my man should have become a porcupine with specific choreography matches with the specific set pieces and props locations they decided to go with

[ichooseviolence]

"I'm tired of Sansa being rescued.." Question, when has she been rescued? Littlefinger's "rescue" was a false one. Sure, he smuggled her out of KL, but it was completely self-serving to further his own ambitions. The Vale is just another prison for her, and now he's roped her in even further via Lysa's murder. The Tyrells weren't trying to rescue her through their marriage proposal to Willas. That offer was self-serving. Tyrion stood up for her a few times, but he never rescued her. The Hound offered to get her out of KL, but he was drunk, verbally cruel to her, and also had no plan nor any idea on where he would take her.

Also, there's nothing wrong with needing rescue. Once, twice, thrice, a hundred times.

[linberlyy]

Milly: Rhaenyra comes to the conclusion that she wants power, she’s the crown, she cannot give it up and my last scene, when she sees Alicent’s complete disgust with herself, she understands that she will need to fight with her for power.

Emma: huh? I have a scene where Rhaenyra roars at her father’s bedside and says that she doesn’t want to be with this burden, and in general she then promises Alicent to return on the dragon to KL.

Emily: the wedding was the point of no return, Rhaenyra didn’t care about Alicent's feelings and lied to her, swearing on her mother's grave. Because of Rhaenyra, Otto is deprived of his position as Hand and Alicent enters into a fight with Rhaenyra.

Olivia: huh? Alicent, after her son’s deprived of an eye, cries that she cut her friend and acted dishonestly towards her, and then shouted at the council that she would send everyone to the wall if she ever heard a proposal to kill Rhaenyra again.

[allyriadayne]

What do you think of the idea that if Helaena was married to Jace she would have been treated as a hostage and would have been in danger from Daemon?

in relation to another jace and helaena ask. a lot of stuff here!

hostage refers to the keeping of a person during or after an hostile situation (like theon) that could meet dead or maiming if the other side doesn't comply. if helaena marries jace when rhaenyra proposes it in ep 6 i don't think she'll be a hostage nor i think rhaenyra would kill her if the greens rise up against her or usurp the throne like in canon. this would probably stay alicent and otto's hand for a few years and by this time helaena and jace might be already married with children, esp if the powers that be want the union of the two branches to bear fruits sooner rather than later. i don't think jace would've let anything happen to helaena, he seems to be a person who keeps his vows and (to me, TO ME) would actually respect helaena and her hobbies.

if the greens do install aegon on the throne, the most that i could see happening is confining helaena to dragonstone or sent to the vale/pentos in case the greens try to take her away and avoid any unnecessary harm to her if the invasion of the island is floated around. but that's also what they did to rhaena and baela. in canon, rhaenyra confines her to her rooms when she takes KL if i recall correctly and she's ready to offer her mercy too, but this is in an scenario where the war breaks out. i also think westeros' ableist society would dismiss helaena as simple AND a woman besides, neither a spy nor able enough to help the other side.

this of course doesn't mean that alicent wouldn't see helaena as a hostage in hostile hands. which also intersects beautifully with her own view of marriage and giving her daughter away when she wanted to keep her as close as possible to her even by marrying her to /aegon/.

"a danger to daemon" in what way? if you mean it in a sexual way i really really don't think so. i know that fandom (without care!!) says daemon is pedophile sadistic groomer or something but it's not that daemon likes young girls of silver hair, it's that he likes and loves rhaenyra who happens to be all of those things. his fixation is with her. i don't think he would pay attention to her at all, she's thrice protected by being jace's wife, rhaenyra's sister and viserys' daughter. unprovoked, it's not daemon's wont to kill members of his family. the most i can see is him being nasty to her in words more because he wants to bother jace rather because he cares about her reaction. i mean, he barely pays attention to his own daughters, he's not seeking helaena out. jace and helaena's marriage is also a boon for rhaenyra and i think that trumps anything else.

[transgenderer]

Kleine–Levin syndrome (KLS) is a rare neurological disorder characterized by persistent episodic hypersomnia accompanied by cognitive and behavioral changes. These changes may include disinhibition, sometimes manifested through hypersexuality, hyperphagia or emotional lability, and other symptoms, such as derealization. Patients generally experience recurrent episodes of the condition for more than a decade, which may return at a later age. Individual episodes generally last more than a week, sometimes lasting for months. Patients commonly have about 20 episodes over about a decade. Several months may elapse between episodes.

The onset of the condition usually follows a viral infection (72% of patients); several different viruses have been observed to trigger KLS.[2] It is generally only diagnosed after similar conditions have been excluded; MRI, CT scans, lumbar puncture, and toxicology tests are used to rule out other possibilities. The syndrome's mechanism is not known, but the thalamus is thought to possibly play a role. SPECT has shown thalamic hypoperfusion in patients during episodes.

KLS is very rare, occurring at a rate of 1 in 500,000, which limits research into genetic factors.[2] The condition primarily affects teenagers (81% of reported patients), with a bias towards males (68-72% of cases), though females can also be affected, and the age of onset varies.[2] There is no known cure, and there is little evidence supporting drug treatment. Lithium has been reported to have limited effects in case reports, decreasing the length of episodes and duration between them in some patients.[3] Stimulants have been shown to promote wakefulness during episodes, but they do not counteract cognitive symptoms or decrease the duration of episodes.

Patients with Kleine–Levin syndrome (KLS) experience recurring episodes of prolonged sleep (hypersomnia).[5] In most cases, patients sleep 15 to 21 hours a day during episodes.[6] Excessive appetite (hyperphagia) and unusual cravings are present in half to two thirds of cases.[6][7][8] About half of patients, mainly male patients, experience dramatically increased sexual urges (hypersexuality).[9][7] Several other symptoms usually accompany the syndrome, including marked changes in mood and cognitive ability.[5]Derealization and severe apathy are present in at least 80 percent of cases.[10] About one third of patients experience hallucinations or delusions.[7] Depression and anxiety occur less commonly; one study found them in about 25 percent of patients.[10] Individuals usually cannot remember what happened during episodes.[6] Repetitive behaviors and headaches are commonly reported.[7] Some patients act very childlike during episodes,[11] and communication skills and coordination sometimes worsen.[6]

The first time a patient experiences KLS, it usually occurs along with symptoms that are similar to those of the flu or encephalitis. In at least 75 percent of cases, symptoms occur after an airway infection or a fever. Viruses observed before the development of the condition include Epstein–Barr virus, varicella zoster virus, herpes zoster virus, influenza A virus subtypes, and adenovirus. Several days after symptoms first occur, patients become very tired.[9] In cases that occur after an infection, KLS usually starts within three to five days for teenagers and fewer for children.[16] In other cases, alcohol consumption, head injury, or international travel precede symptoms.[9][14] Lifestyle habits, such as stress, alcohol abuse and lack of sleep and stress, have also been proposed as possible triggers.[5] First episodes of KLS are preceded by a clear event in about 90 percent of cases.[8] Recurrences generally do not have clear triggers; only about 15 percent have a precipitating event.[17]

Population-based studies of KLS have not been performed. Its prevalence is about 1 to 2 cases per million people,[8] although recent studies conducted by a French research team point to a higher number of 3 per million people.[25] It occurs most frequently among Jews in the US and Israel. First-degree relatives of people who have the syndrome are much more likely than the general population to have it, although only in about one percent of cases do family members contract it. About 68 to 72 percents of patients are male. Patients with the syndrome are more likely than the general population to have genetic disorders, and about a third of people with the syndrome encountered some form of birth difficulty.[26] In a study of 186 older patients, about ten percent had preexisting psychiatric issues.[6] One study found that about ten percent of patients had a neurological condition before KLS developed.[8] The condition does not appear to occur most frequently in one season.[11]

??? extremely strange disorder.

[alicentsultana]

Hi ! Sorry to bother but I wanted to ask you ,what are your thoughts on Otto and Alicent relationship and how would you have it developed in season 2?

Have a good day/night !

Hi!

Oh that's complicated.

Based on the fact that Aegon will dismiss him, I believe they will be in bad terms.

We had that deleted dialog about otto using Alicent and proposing a marriage in her name, so maybe he will do it again, or even displease them in a general manner.

Otto acts on his on ways most of the time, maybe he will do something that will be prejudicial to their side as a whole, and it will deteriorate their relationship more. He can also do something Aegon as a King (and father) wouldn't approve, like suggest sending the twins and maelor away, proposing a marriage between Jaehaera and the son of someone else to secure support, comment over the death of Jaehaerys coldly like: if Maelor was the one killed it would have been better...

I believe Alicent will finally have enough of him and won't put up with him anymore, so their relationship will really sour - but he's still ambitious father and grandfather, he will still support his grandson, even not in the best terms.

Reflecting on their relationship as a whole, he got it coming. Alicent tried many times to be a good daughter, to support his decisions, but he never sympathized with her grievances or tried to make it better. He won't have a daughter to take of him now that he is old and we all can understand that, he wasn't a great parent. If there was another King, or if Rhaenyra was a prince, he would also do everything to make Alicent marry in and put his line in the throne, no matter her age, or what she wants, as long as he is winning.

And I kind of can understand him, he is a second son, he has nothing to his name, he lives depending on the favor of others. It's natural to want something more. His execution over was terrible, but I believe his initial motivation was acceptable. Otto and Alicent were alone in the Keep and only had each other once Mrs. Otto Hightower died, and she clearly had a huge influence on them both. When he left KL Alicent was alone and she clearly would want her father back. As they got back together, Alicent eventually matured, learn the things she must do to survive, but she wouldn't do the same things her father did to her children - and if she did, she clearly would have her grievances and would try to explain her reasons to her children.

I also think he had a hand in sending Daeron away.

In the end, he is never the one trying to redeem himself and actively recognizing his errors. Alicent have no obligation to go after him and keep trying to mend their relationship, as she did many times in the past.

Anyway, I tried to imagine if it was my father doing it. I would have a hard time trying to forgive and keep up with him in my life. But this is another time and another moral, so she's doing what a dutiful daughter would do. Once again, bound by duty.

Hoping to hear your thoughts about it! Have a good night/day!

[goingrampant]

Methods to Address Fascism

When discussing the means by which to address the problem of fascism, it would probably be useful to delineate the exact nature of urgency and to what length of time we expect to be successful. I propose breaking potential solutions up into three categories: effective now, effective later, and effective permanently.

In theory, we should be working toward the ultimate goal of eliminating fascism forever, but that's a pie-in-the-sky hope without much chance of success and, as it's never happened before, we have zero hard data on what may be effective. What's effective now or later may be related to stopping it forever, or it could have zero impact. It's impossible to say until it happens. On the flip side, the fact that effective now and effective later methods haven't seen to the permanent destruction of fascism says nothing about their ability to address problems that require something be done in the meantime.

As potential permanent solutions may require crimes against humanity in the neighborhood of what we're even trying to prevent by eliminating fascism ("the final solution to the fascist problem" ;p), it is possible that it may be unethical to implement, requiring the repeated implementation of temporary solutions to more urgent manifestations of fascism. This temporary nature requiring repeated implementations would be a feature, not a bug, if it ends up more ethical than either allowing fascism to run unchecked or implementing a final solution.

Punching Nazis is not effective permanently, but it doesn't need to be if it is effective in a shorter time span. If there is an immediate threat of Nazi aggression, engaging them in violence is effective now. Whether or not it's effective later is unclear.

White nationalist Richard Spencer described anticipating antifa violence as making preaching Nazism "not fun" for him and taking the wind out of his sails, while journalist Vegas Tenold, in his book Everything You Love Will Burn, painted a picture of white nationalist groups emboldened by antifa violence, hardened by adversity and ready to wage war, much as Hitler described antifa violence leading to the success of the Nazi Party. Former white nationalist R. Derek Black (they/her pronouns), in their autobiography The Klansman's Son, described with more nuance how the threat of antifa violence concerns white nationalist groups, that they respond more to antifa violence than to calm arguments that they're wrong, which barely even registers, while she specifically guided white nationalist group Stormfront to not prepare to defend themselves from antifa aggression because it would produce better optics to play the innocent victim, savagely attacked out of the blue. As for Black's own reformation from white supremacism, they described being influenced by general antagonism, her local community never letting them forget that normal people regard her beliefs as vile and distasteful, while adversely affected by angry anarchists going out of their way to antagonize them. Hurting Black's feelings and making her concerned for their personal safety just made her stubbornly resistant to accepting different ideas. These mixed results suggest to me that efficacy is largely dependent on the individual circumstances of any given manifestation of fascism and the personal psychologies of the fascists in question, requiring several methods of fascist resistance in the toolbox and on-the-ground adaptation.

Meanwhile, fantifa and anti-German antifa factions may disagree about the efficacy of punching Nazis on sight when there is no immediate threat. Fantifa member Clara in Fantifa: Feministische Perspektiven Antifascisischer Politik describes the punching Nazis on sight method as problematically macho, not effective later and, unless there is an immediate threat, perhaps not even effective now.

Talking to fascists may be effective later. There has been some success shown with Daryl Davis convincing Klansmen to quit the Klan, Black being persuaded by discussions with their girlfriends and close friends over the course of several years, former neo-Nazi Christian Picciolini's discussion of deradicalizing a now-former Nazi friend by getting him to talk to an imam about Islam to demystify the culture to him, and various examples of alt-righters being deradicalized by watching Destiny debate alt-righters and expose the illogic of their arguments.

Conversely, there are numerous examples of it not working and even enabling fascist recruitment through persuasive rhetoric getting the chance to meet the ears of those receptive to it (platforming). Though I'd take Hitler's judgments with a grain of salt, he did describe how "our adversaries... began to tyrannise our young movement by bourgeois means, and, by doing so, they assisted [Nazi ascension]", which may allude to debating Nazis being ineffective. Again, Hitler's an idiot, but it's worth keeping in mind. It was not effective at stopping Spencer. It was not effective at stopping Stormfront, Black describing Stormfront members hardly caring. It only really worked on Black (then, a Stormfront leader) when it came from trusted close friends. Destiny's debate partners rarely concede anything, and his most success comes from contra-platforming effective arguments that persuade alt-right bystanders to look closer into things.

Environmental changes seem to be effective later but are difficult to implement as an antifascist solution. Black was influenced by going to college, being surrounded by a diverse community, and adjusting slowly over time while also being spoken to about the veracity of their ideas by close, personal friends and lovers. Picciolini was influenced by opening a business in a diverse neighborhood and slowly being deradicalized by coming to appreciate his customers of color as just normal people. Fascists do recognize the issue of their children going off to college and being exposed to new ideas that make them stop being fascists, for which they blame "groomer" and communist professors, but it may be the environmental change as much as anything. Keeping access to colleges open may be an effective later approach.

Effective later solutions are probably not effective now. They are probably not effective permanently. They may not even be effective later. However, they should be kept in the toolbox for times when they can be useful to implement.