#king Urien

[queer-ragnelle]

The Body of Urien Rheged by Anonymous | More quotes at Arthuriana Daily

[gawrkin]

Queen Guinevere and Morgan le Fay Contrasted

Sister with a similar-sounding name: Guinevak, Morgause

Understudy Best Friend: Isolde, Sebile

"Deutercanonical" Daughter: Melora, "Pulzella Gaia"

"Forgotten" Son: Loholt, Ywain

Race: Giant ("Merch y Gawr"), Fairy ("la fee'")

The "Husband": Arthur, Urien

Boyfriends Boy-toys Male associates:

Guinevere: Lancelot, Gosengos, Yder, etc.

Morgan: Accolon, Huneson, Ogier, etc.

[gingersnaptaff]

who are the main characters in welsh arthurian mythos?

Hi anon! You know, I looked at this question and just fuckin DIED with GLEE! Ehdhdjdhdjd I LOVE SHIT LIKE THIS!!!!! SHDJDJDH

First off, Arthur is pretty big. He's less a king and more of a warlord, but there's still a lot of cultural reverence for him in Welsh things. Seriously, Henry VII - a notable faux-Welshman - named his firstborn son Arthur purely because he was going to be Prince of Wales. Also, in Culhwch and Olwen his retinue has TWO Welsh GODS in it - Manawydan and Pryderi (my beloveds.) Idk what they're doing in it but I am inordinately pleased that they are there.

Also, Uther Pendragon / Uther Ben. Taliesin wrote a poem about him which is super fun. (Also, oddly enough Taliesin himself HAS been linked into Arthurian legends on multiple occasions. He's also another Arthur-type in that he's still regarded as tooling the line between mythical and real.)

Gwenhwyfar is also important even though she takes a back seat. Speculation is rife about whether she had a quest/myth about her (sorta like Culhwch and Olwen) and also her name means 'white phantom!' BRING IT BACK. I, for one, think she definitely did have a quest attributed to her in which Arthur had to do something to get her hand in marriage but idk WHAT.

Also, she's a GIANT!!!!!!!! EJDJDKDKDKD

Gwalchmai is also Super Important. There's speculation as to whether he was a mythical character who got implanted into the mythos or if he was always Atthur's nephew. Basically, he's a giant and he kills giants. Seriously, he's CONSTANTLY killing giants in the mythos. Plus he is called 'Gwalchmai Golden / Silver-tongued' in poetry too. In the Mabinogion, he's very often the one to soothe discord between the other knights so he's very diplomatic too.

Cai and Bedwyr, obviously! They come as a pair. Do Not Separate. Now, Cai is sometimes also seen to be a giant but his dad is Cynyr Ceinfarfog who was a real king. He ruled Dyfed and was the dad of Saint Non and, therefore, grandad to SAINT DAVID. (Wales' patron saint!) So Cai, like Arthur, has a saintly lineage. Before the French Romances shifted his character into the more recognisable Kay, Arthur's grumpy seneschal, Cai was a warrior of great renown. And literally superhuman. Like, nobody would received from.a blow from his sword, he could brave fire and water like nobody else, he has the ability to go nine nights and days without sleep or the need to breathe. He's a ledge.

Now, Bedwyr! Again he's a great warrior and ONE-ARMED. He's called Bedwyr Bedrydant (Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinew) and he's HOT SHIT. Seriously, he's like the most beautiful Knight in Arthur's court. The 10th-century poem 'pa gur' says that assailants 'fell by the hundred / before Bedwyr of the Perfect sinew ... fighting with Garwlwyd/ furious with sword and shield.' (Also, BTW Garwlwyd is possibly a werewolf.)

They have to put up with SO MUCH SHIT from Arthur's escapades it's ridiculous. They had to convince Arthur not to intervene in a King abducting a princess and carrying her back to his court, ffs. Give them a HOLIDAY. WITH SALMON TAXIS.

Now, I would say Merlin BUT he is added later into the mythology. He isn't there straight off. But he is Welsh. He's FUN. He was apparently based on Myrddin Wyllt. He went mad, and lived in a forest. His bestie was a king who died.

Now, I also think Owain, and Geraint on account of their having stories written about them but they're two kings who got folded into the mythos a bit later. Urien (Owain's dad) is another example.

Also, Macsen Wledig too. But again writers melded him in later. And I mean this in the sense that he and Arthur share similarities in how they're perceived in Welsh culture.

Anyways, anon, I hope this helps. I'm probably forgetting a TONNE of characters (Peredur, for one.) But I Don't want to bore you or make anybody trawl through this unwillingly so I shall stop! Hopefully, this helps! Thank u for the question!!!!

[a-rare-jewell]

Part 8

King Arthur and the knights of the round table

Part 1

[clydetanksleyart]

I really like sketching

[joemerl]

The Whumps of March 2024: "Vengeance"

A series of vignettes based on Arthurian legend, collected on AO3 here.

Morgause was losing patience. “What do you expect me to say, Morgan? Arthur is the High King now. And our brother, in case you’ve forgotten.”

“Brother,” Morgan snarled, slamming her goblet in anger. “The son of the man who killed our father! Enslaved our mother! Sold us like pawns to his allies, turned us from our home and—"

“Yes, Morgan, I know why you hate Uther,” Morgause said pointedly. “So perhaps you should be happy that he is dead.”

Morgan’s gaze smoldered. Morgause held her breath for a moment, only mostly sure that her sorcerous sister wouldn’t lash out at her words.

“Arthur killed your Lot, didn't he?”

She spoke softly, but the words hung heavily in the air for a long moment.

“Yes,” Morgause said finally, icily. “Not personally, mind you. That was King Pellinore, as my sons are accustomed to remind me. But I have no interest in revenge. It was a war, and we lost. A wise queen accepts what is."

Morgan sneered. "So you'll accept the same treatment that our mother was forced to."

"We tried to take Arthur's throne. Because—” she spoke loudly, as her sister tried to interrupt, “like your Uriens, we imagined that we had a certain right to it, and were willing to make great risks to achieve it. That ended poorly for us, though Arthur has been noble in his victory.

"I’ve learned from my mistake, sister. Perhaps you should as well.”

[tiodolma]

Here comes Arthur and Morgan le Fay’s deadly sibling drama 🤣

.......................

Morgan: (steals arthur’s excalibur and scabbard and replaces them with fakes. Then she sends the real one to Accolon via dwarf express)

Accolon: (immeidately uses the sword and scabbard to fight with the first knight he saw which was arthur coz they were both fighting for other lords)

Arthur: why the heck am i not OP anymore? Im bleeding???

Nimueh: damn. The king is in danger

Accolon: i am winning muahahahah

Nimueh: no you are not (magicks excalibur out of accolon’s grip)

Arthur: (retrieves the real excalibur and throws the scabbard as far as possibe)

Accolon: (is now hit by arthur)

Arthur: i should kill you damn it. But whats your name?

Accolon: im accolon of gaul from the round table of king arthur

Arthur: (is sad) why the treachery? Who sent you?

Accolon: my lover my lady queen morgan le fay wants me to be king and slay the king arthur

Arthur: nooooooooo i trusted her than anyone else even above my own wife

Accolon: pray sir what is your name

Arthur: im the King Arthur you idiottttt

Accolon: aaaaa have mercy

Arthur: you shall have my mercy

Accolon: (is dead after 4 days coz his wounds were too great)

Arthur: send his body to my sister as a gift

......

Morgan le fay: hahaha arthur is dead time to kill my husband, king uriens. Girl fetch me his sword!

Girl: ok my lady...

Girl: awake prince owain, your mom is gonna kill your dad!!!

Owain: ok go fetch the sword and go back to her

Girl: here is the sword milady

Morgan le fay: hahah ur dead now

Owain: mother no! U demon!!! If u werent my mother i would have taken your head off! Merlin may be the devil’s son by i was borne by an earthly demon myself!

Morgan le fay: son forgive meeee

Owain: alright but promise you wont do that again!

Morgan le fay: i promise!!!

.....

Announcement: accolon is dead!!!!

Morgan le fay: conceal dont feel dont let them know

Morgan le fay: hey sis, i need to go somewhere real quick.

Guinevere: arent you gonna wait for your brother?

Morgana le fay: nah fam. It’s urgent.

Guinevere: well ok.

........

Kinights: my lady, the king is sleeping!

Morgan le fay: lemme see him.

Knights: well okay.

Arthur: (sleeping but holding excalibur like a plushie)

Morgan le fay: goddamnit

Morgan le fay: fine, your scabbard is mine now

.......

Arthur: where is my scabbard?!??

Knights: um your sister, queen morgan le fay took it!!

Arthur: useless idiots you all are!

Arthur: damn you morgan!!!!!

..........

Merlin: pls let me out of this hole. Help 😭😭😭

[goldenteaset]

Wasn't it mentioned that Ywain was Merlin's older brother or did I hallucinate that

*double checks* Ywain (Mordred) is definitely younger than Merlin, but when it comes to being related...I have no idea, sorry anon! ^^; I think you're confusing him with King Uriens, and we have no idea if Uriens and Merlin are related either. I like that it's vague, though, because, besides loss of a pet, Merlin's grief can be translated into any form you're familiar with.

I hope that helps! (Arthuriana has many more too-similar names, hopefully we'll evade the Isoldes..)

[ofglories]

Claudas: Go to hell. And go fuck yourself. Uther: I'm sorry, did you say something? I don't speak failure. Claudas: How dare y-?! Uther: Aw, what's the matter? Did I touch a nerve because you failed to defend your lands? Lot: ...I could kill both of them right now. I could do it easily. Uriens: Don't, it's funnier this way.

Emrys, in the afterlife: Take all three of them out, Lot.

[voidloidsstuff]

ok so I found something out while doing research for my hnoc fanfic Mordred was adopted by a Saxon woman named Morgan, who dated two Saxon men, Lot and Uren. Uren is based off of Urien, king of Rhegard. Historians don't know his parents, but one of the speculated fathers is Coel Hen. Coel Hen is also often called King Cole. We don't KNOW if Coel Hen is the person written about in the nursery ryhme "old king cole" but There is a non-zero chance that Mordred HNOC is related to Old King Cole OUATIS

[cicelythereaper]

If I wanted to get really into medieval welsh literature instead of just reading everything in our beloved Hergest duo, do you have any recommendations on where to begin?

hi! sorry it took me so long to answer this but hopefully the length of the answer means it's worth the wait. by "our beloved hergest duo" i'm assuming you mean the white book of rhydderch and the red book of hergest, and more specifically the texts collected as the mabinogion from those two manuscripts - if i'm wrong let me know. i'm also assuming that you mainly want to read in english translation, at least to start with.

there is a LOT of medieval welsh literature out there beyond the mabinogion but a lot of it is harder to access. this is a rough menu of options with my honest opinions about how easy it is to get at these things:

the triads of the island of britain (trioedd ynys prydein), aka a big long list of People And Things From Welsh Tradition (Some Possibly Made Up). for this you want rachel bromwich's edition and translation: there are four different editions of this and all of them are expensive (and three of them are out of print). i recommend keeping an eye out on secondhand book websites for the 2nd edition (1978) or the 4th (2014), or bugging your library to see if they have, or will buy, either of these. if you're currently at uni you may be able to get access to an electronic version of the 4th edition.

material about merlin. maybe start with geoffrey of monmouth's latin vita merlini - this is less a reflection of welsh tradition and more an extremely lengthy riff on it, but still very interesting. a new translation of it can be found here! medieval merlin material in welsh is basically all prophetic poetry, mostly from the black book of carmarthen. at the moment, the best place to find translations of this is in the romance of merlin, ed. peter goodrich (1990) - again i recommend looking out for a secondhand copy or talking to your library. hopefully the myrddin project at cardiff will soon have fresh editions and translations for us available online! (in the meantime, here's their twitter.) there's also armes prydein vawr, a somewhat different type of prophecy poem also associated with merlin/myrddin and generally dated to the 10th century, which you can find on archive.org here.

material associated with taliesin. this comes in many shapes and sizes. first of all, there's praise poetry attributed to taliesin and addressed to the 6th-century king urien of rheged: this is mostly translated in the two clancy anthologies i'm going to cite further down, but if you want the welsh text, the best place to find it is probably in ifor williams' edition (translated into english as the poems of taliesin by j. e. caerwyn williams, available from the dublin institute for advanced studies). second of all, there's All The Other Poetry Attributed To Taliesin: for this you want marged haycock's legendary poems from the book of taliesin and prophecies from the book of taliesin. again with these i recommend the secondhand or library approach. THIRD of all, there's a relatively late folktale about taliesin (this is where ceridwen and gwion bach come in): this you can find translated in patrick k. ford's the mabinogi (which it looks like you can get as a kindle or paperback comparatively cheap).

y gododdin, the massive poetic text attributed to aneirin about A Lot Of Dead Dudes In Southern Scotland. this is a tough one to get to grips with, i'm not gonna lie. if you want to get at the welsh text, the massive modern welsh edition by ifor williams (canu aneirin) is still the best there is, but he reorders the stanzas of the poem from the manuscript pretty radically. (to see the stanzas in order, look for daniel huws' facsimile edition of the book of aneirin - or, depending on how well you read medieval welsh handwriting, check out the manuscript itself.) for translations, i recommend joseph p. clancy's, which has multiple versions floating around - there's one in the triumph tree (ed. thomas owen clancy) and a slightly less full one in medieval welsh poems (joseph clancy's big anthology, now out of print). this is the most poetic while still being largely accurate, but if you're concerned about academic levels of accuracy, then i recommend balancing clancy out with kenneth jackson's the gododdin: the oldest scottish poem, which has the advantage of being designed to be used alongside ifor williams. FOR ALL OF THESE you'll need to hit up secondhand booksellers or libraries.

early welsh englyn poetry: by this i mean poetry in englyn metre about historic figures and landscapes. as academic sources/translations, if you can get your hands on them, i recommend jenny rowland's early welsh saga poetry (1990) and patrick sims-williams' new englynion y beddau (2023), but both of these are massive and expensive. a more approachable way to get at this material may be rowland's a selection of early welsh saga poems, which is intended more for classroom use - this you can get for relatively cheap as a paperback. you might also want to check out kenneth jackson's studies in early celtic nature poetry (dated, but i think he translates some of the less-studied englyn poetry in there: again, check with secondhand booksellers) and nicolas jacobs' early welsh gnomic and nature poetry (cheaper and easier to get, but untranslated, though he gives a useful glossary so you can attempt it yourself).

additional arthurian material. this is scattered across various places and manuscripts, but some good places to learn about it, if not necessarily read it, are o. j. padel's arthur in medieval welsh literature (2013, heavily recommended, you can get it cheap as a paperback); bromwich et al's the arthur of the welsh (1991), which iirc includes patrick sims-williams' translation of my beloved arthurian poem pa gur; and the new and exciting arthur in the celtic languages, ed. ceridwen lloyd-morgan and erich poppe (2019), which is going to give you a BIG and comprehensive overview of every text arthur has ever shown up in in welsh. for the last two you definitely want to go secondhand or through a library. EDITED TO ADD: [LOUD BUZZER NOISE] I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT NERYS ANN JONES' ARTHUR IN EARLY WELSH POETRY which came out in 2019! go buy it it's a £15 paperback! an absolute steal for what you get!

high and late medieval poetry of praise, lament and love: the bread and butter of the professional poet. these can be found in various places. for the gogynfeirdd, the high medieval poets, the medieval welsh texts (+ modern welsh paraphrases) can be found in the absolutely massive series cyfres beirdd y tywysogion, but this is not something to attempt to get without a powerful library on your side. the late medieval poetry, on the other hand, is edited in cyfres beirdd yr uchelwyr and can be found online here - which was news to me! much of this material has never been translated into english. for a good selection of translations of some of the best stuff, i really recommend joseph p. clancy's medieval welsh poems (find a secondhand copy or get your library to do it for you), and/or tony conran's welsh verse. a couple of good selections of the later medieval poetry are: the poetry of dafydd ap gwilym, ALL of which is available online in translation here; loomis and johnston's medieval welsh poems: an anthology; and dafydd johnston's galar y beirdd: poets' grief, which specifically collects poets' laments for their dead children.

RELIGIOUS MATERIAL, of which there is a shit-ton. my recommendations are definitely going to be missing some stuff (e.g. soul-and-body dialogues, descriptions of purgatory, etc) but here's what i've got. for material to do with welsh saints, i recommend this website, where you can find translations of a lot of the latin prose lives of saints and quite a few welsh poems about saints as well - and if you look at the bottom you'll see it lists a few more books you might want to look into. if you want an even fuller look at welsh saints' latin lives, albeit dated, see if you can get your hands on a secondhand/library copy of wade-evans' vitae sanctorum britanniae (1944). if you like genealogies, barry lewis i believe has just put out an edition and study of bonedd y saint, the genealogies of the welsh saints, available from the dublin institute for advanced studies (though it's not the cheapest thing out there).* there is also a lot of general religious poetry, which you can find edited in marged haycock's blodeugerdd barddas o ganu crefyddol cynnar (1994) and translated in mckenna's the medieval welsh religious lyric (1991).

*i should also say that if you're interested in medieval welsh genealogies in general, you want ben guy's medieval welsh genealogy - this is very technical and probably expensive but if you really need to know who's related to who in the welsh historical imagination, it's a great resource.

(pseudo-)historical texts: there are various of these. the most famous is geoffrey of monmouth's de gestis britonum (also known as historia regum britanniae, 'history of the kings of britain') - this you can find edited and translated by reeve & wright under the latter title. if you want to know about geoffrey's work but you can't get your hands on it or don't have time to read what is honestly a massive text, then i recommend karen jankulak's book geoffrey of monmouth - super useful and you can get it cheap as a paperback. then there are medieval welsh translations of this text (all known as brut y brenhinedd), some of which go on to become chronicles in their own right (brut y tywysogion). off the top of my head there are three different versions of brut y tywysogion which you can find in a good english translation: the peniarth 20 version (edited and translated by thomas jones, edition 1941, translation 1952); the red book of hergest version (ed. and trans. thomas jones, 1955); and brenhinedd y saesson (ed. and trans. thomas jones, 1971). you might also want to check out the medieval biography of gruffudd ap cynan (king of gwynedd 1081-1137), which starts as a latin text and is later translated into welsh. the latin text is edited and translated by paul russell as vita griffini filii conani (2005); the welsh text is edited as historia gruffud vab kenan (1977) and translated as a mediaeval prince of wales: the life of gruffudd ap cynan (1990) by d. simon evans.

edited to add: [LOUD BUZZER SOUND] I FORGOT ABOUT HISTORIA BRITTONUM AND SHOULD BE PUBLICLY SHAMED. this is a ninth-century latin historical text from north wales, it's weird as hell, i love it to bits and should probably actually read more of it. currently the edition everybody uses is john morris's nennius: british history and the welsh annals (1980), which is not the most expensive thing out there but certainly not the cheapest so get it through your library if you can. this is especially useful in conjunction with geoffrey's de gestis britonum because he was absolutely using it as a source.

the hardest thing to get at on this list: translation literature. by the time we get to the red book of hergest there's been a huge boom in medieval translations of french and latin texts into welsh - and these are often really fun and interesting to read, but under-studied! this is an issue because it means i basically cannot recommend you any english translations of them. if you're still interested and you want to plough through the medieval welsh yourself, here are some texts:

cân rolant, a welsh version of the 'song of roland' aka Violence Violence Violence, edited and translated by a. c. rejhon (1984) - the only thing on this list to have a recent translation, alas;

ystorya de carolo magno, edited by stephen williams, 2nd edition (1986) - a welsh version of the charlemagne legend, this is where cân rolant comes from;

ystoryaeu seint greal, a welsh translation of two french romances, queste del saint graal and perlesvaus: you can find the whole thing in the (very old, undoubtedly outdated) selections from the hengwrt mss volume 1, y seint greal, edited and translated by robert williams (1874-6), which is on archive.org here, and the welsh text of the first part is edited as y keis by thomas jones (1992);

ystorya bown de hamtwn, a welsh version of the romance of bevis of hampton, an absolutely insane text about the worst man in the world which i love dearly: the whole thing is edited (but not translated) by morgan watkin (1958); selected bits of it are edited with a useful glossary for classroom use by erich poppe and regine reck as selections from ystorya bown o hamtwn (2009);

a welsh bestiary of love, ed. g. c. g. thomas (2008) - a translation of the french bestiaire d'amour, aka Do You Want To Hear The Worst Man In The World Tell You Dubious Animal Facts? Of Course You Do;

kedymdeithyas amlyn ac amic, edited by patricia williams (1982), a welsh version of the french tale ami et amile about two identical friends;

chwedlau odo, a collection of fables, edited by ifor williams (1958);

chwedlau seith doethon rufein, edited by henry lewis (1958) - 'stories of the seven sages of rome'.

and finally, medical texts! if you want a look at medieval welsh medical practices and you want to learn a lot of plant names in middle welsh, check out diana luft's medieval welsh medical texts, which you can find online for free here.

i hope this is helpful! enjoy Experiencing Welsh Literature and best of luck getting your hands on it!

[queer-ragnelle]

I don’t know if anyone can tell me but were continuity mistakes fixed in Howard Pyle reprints?

Per medlit, Gawaine is the son of Lot/Margaise and Ewaine is his cousin the son of Urien/Morgana. But the book swaps the sisters like so:

Wonder if it’s corrected anywhere.

[gawrkin]

The French Arthurian Narratives really, really, really don't gel with Welsh Law.

So basically:

Morgan would have just divorce Urien using any bullshit excuse, backed up by magic.

Lancelot would've just paid blood-money for damages done to Arthur and Gawain's kin. (Not that it would stop Gawain if Gareth - and specifically Gareth - is killed, but still)

Guinevere would have just been divorced, beaten and/or humiliated like Rhiannon, but death penalty would have been unnecessary and excessive, especially if Arthur's sympathetic to his wife.

Arthur and Guinevere could've initiated divorce anytime for any reason. Especially, when there's a seven-year time period of cohabitation that determines whether or not Gwen is entitled to half of Arthur's property. Childless!Guinevere really makes it even questionable that Guinevere could've kept her queenship past three years, much less seven.

So, all in all, the Arthurian story we know and love only works if its culturally the French High Middle Ages (12-13th Century)

[gingersnaptaff]

hi anon again and no you didn't bore me at ALL!! i loved hearing about the welsh arthurian mythos and i want to know more. please tell me where i can read about them and tell me interesting facts you like about it!!!!!!!!

Anon, I am hugging u. Thank u for saying I didn't bore u!!! So glad u liked my mad ramblings!!!

Okay, so The Mabinogion is probably a good place to start. It contains four branches of Welsh mythology which sorta ties into Welsh Arthuriana because some of the gods (Manawydan, Pryderi, Gwyn ap Nudd, Mabon ap Modron, Bendigeidfran's head.) pop up in both. Also, it contains Culhwch and Olwen which is a tale concerning Arthur's cousin Culhwch going on a quest with Arthur and his knights so he can marry Ysbaddaden Pencawr's daughter, Olwen. It's believed to be the earliest-written Arthurian romance preserved in manuscripts. It also contains three other Arthurian romances which are either Welsh tales that have been adapted by De Troyes and then back into Welsh but with a twist, or just based on French romance tales that have been repressed for the Welsh. (Idk really know which one is true but they're all fun!!!)

There's also the tales of Lludd and Llefelys (a personal fave.), The Dream of Rhonabwy (a fictional dream containing Arthurian characters but also actually REAL LIFE Welsh ruler Madog ap Maredudd.), AND The Dream of Macsen Wledig which is essentially one man's quest to bonk a hot lady in Caernarfon. (Tbf, Macsen Wledig is somewhat of an Arthurian figure in his own right cuz he too is seen as a Mab Darogan (prophecised son) in Welsh Culture because he united the Welsh under one banner, and then died, and then Wales immediately split into kingdoms again.)

You can either access Charlotte Guest's translation which I am sure @queer-ragnelle has scanned, or Sioned Davies' new translation which has handy dandy footnotes and such.

There's also Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones translation which uses a lot of the medieval language but was also made into a beautifully illustrated book by Alan Lee (An illustrator who is famous for LOTR illustrations). Jeffrey Gantz's edition is, I think, the most recently published edition but you can tear Sioned Davies from my COLD DEAD HANDS. Or, if you like poetry, one of my old English lit lecturers, Matthew Francis, has done a poetry version of the four branches! It's amazing!!!!

Also, Naxos has an audiobook version read by Matt Addis which uses Guest's translation but is good for listening to. I love it.

(You'll also want Trystan ac Essyllt, 'The Triads of Britain' and 'The Arthur of the Welsh' which are written by Rachel Bromwich, and I recommend O.J. Padel's 'Arthur in Medieval Welsh Literature' for more on how he's portrayed through that. And if you like modern re-tellings Seren Books has a box set of them! Each one is a re-telling of each branch of the Mabinogi, Culhwch and Olwen, the three romances, and the others. Very fun!)

Now in terms of my favourite things: Peredur being Urien's first cousin irl made me be like WHAT? Like, they're SO interconnected it's MADNESS. Urien, Owain, and Peredur are all related. Also, the fact that Welsh Arthuriana has swallowed up eight irl monarchs (Edern ap Nudd, Cunedda, Owain, Urien, Geraint, Peredur, Macsen Wledig, Cynon ap Clydno (Owain's sister, Morfudd's, lover), and Cynyr Ceinfarfog (Cai's dad), one poetic genius (Taliesin - who wrote about Urien as it goes!!! BTW read the tale of Taliesin. Sjdddkxk. The Jones and Jones translation has it, the Davies translation of the Mabinogi does not.), Emrys Wyllt who was the inspiration for Merlin, and sixty-seven thousand gods, as well as a few saints.

My favourite fact about Welsh Arthuriana is probably that Gwalchmai and Peredur probs had a relationship, Arthur is canonically in love with his boat, Cai literally says 'if u held my dick like that I'd die.' in Culhwch and Olwen, and Gwenhwyfar's a fuckin GIANTESS. 😍😍😍😍 I have many more facts but like I don't want to clutter the feed!!!!!

Hope my rambles were helpful in some way! Have a good day/night, anon! ☺️🧡

[the-kingshound]

I think this was mentioned in passing on another post that's currently buried in the thread.

But from what I gather, the MC is stronger than many of the Knights of the Round? Base wise, but more so when activating their magic?

Specifically, I think this was in reference to Urien. I don't know about how others viewed that whole interaction, but for me, it was just embarrassing on Urien's part.

I mean we call the MC hound, but that was clearly Urien trying to (pardon me) piss all over Camelot to stake a claim.

More dog jargon comes up when you know the MC must think, 'It's always the smallest dog with the loudest bark.'

Seriously though, It's going to be glorious when Urien realizes just how thoroughly outclassed the Knights are.

I picture the MC as a more show than tell person. Not the type to brag or be intimated by false bravado. Never one to really lower themselves to engage in pointless or petty squabbles.

Urien's behavior, that greasy passive-aggressive, weasel-like get under your skin mentality, is such weak bait.

I think this is a stark difference between the Irish and Welsh(?) Forces. The Irish forces seem almost guerrilla in their mentality with an anything goes approach.

While the Arthur and his forces seem constrained by this idea of honor and prestige. As if their deeds are more noble or just. They know war, but I don't think they realize just how much worse it could have gotten.

A war won, to what end?

Urien did posture like that, didn't she? You are correct that MC would overpower her, their combat magic even at this younger age puts them on another level, however Urien is in her element and unfortunately as much as Irish are versed in combat, Welsh are versed in politics.

Urien's power is in her status as Round Table Knight (so, with a significant influence in the name of the King) but also in the way she is connected to many at court and has control over them.

Though, some part of Urien's arrogance would definitely be tested by MC being able to defeat her while she thinks of them as a lost, annoying puppy. And while she might succeed in upsetting some MCs, some others can definitely level her with a stare that tells just how ineffective her threats are (the encounter was probably quite uncomfortable though)

[maxwell-grant]

Heroify: The Four Kings (you can just pick one if you want)

I think the only way we're going to flip Shadaloo and the Four Kings as heroes is if everything else in the world of Street Fighter goes catastrophically wrong to the point Shadaloo has to switch tactics and "play nice" to start catching up instead, so I'd say that's where we are going to start here:

That fateful match between Ryu and Sagat was widely televised the world over, and it was the beginning of a snowballing catastrophe. Nobody had ever seen fireballs in a martial arts match before, nobody had any idea of just how much power the King of Muay Thai had been holding back this entire time, but more shocking still was how the newcomer achieved victory. Nobody could put a name to what sort of strange power allowed this rookie nobody to defeat the greatest fighter in the world and gut him like a trout with a single uppercut, but everyone knew that the future was already decided by it, this thing that was going to be to martial arts what nuclear bombs were to warfare.

Martial artists the world over, pros and newcomers alike, embarked on mad quests to learn more and attain this power, to learn whatever form of karate this Ryu guy was using and what kind of power he had. But Ryu could not be found, and his friend, the scion of the Masters Family, offered no comment, dropping out of the American tournament to search the world for his lost friend. Perhaps their master, Gouken, could have dealt with the new influx of media questions and students responsibly, if only he hadn’t been found murdered in his dojo. Maybe the devotees of Soul Power could have reached out to these warriors, but guess what happened to them also. Still, warriors the world over did eventually find their own methods of catching up, and hey, some of them even found a Ryu to learn from. Someone who knew the basics of Ansatsuken, someone who could even fire his own fireballs, and someone whose mad quest for vengeance was driving him ever so closer to that dark power. Dan Hibiki had no time for students, but vengeance did not pay the bills, and so the Saikyo Dojo opened to unforeseen success. Hey, what are you gonna do, NOT learn more about how Hadokens work?

By the time we get to Street Fighter 2, the world is besieged by powerful forces gone out of control. Maybe Adon succeded in mastering the Dark Hadou on his own, maybe it's some Saikyo students who, far more talented and meaner than their master, eventually made breakthroughs on their Ansatsuken studies that pushed them down this horrible path (I don't think Dan actually achieves that, but he has a big mouth, an understanding of the basics, and a knack for getting surpassed quickly by people who he "mentors", so we're taking that to a darker outcome). Maybe the Secret Society has been manipulating events from the shadows so that global catastrophes sheperd the flock of humanity right into their messiah's arms, and in his impatience to seize control before that, Urien kicks off the creation of Twelves ahead of schedule. Maybe G or Necalli arrive years earlier unimpeded and kick off whatever disasters they had up in the works. Maybe Ryu simply lost the battle against the darkness and could not be pulled back from it, maybe Ken went along with him in the process and burned his life to shit long ahead of schedule.

Everything that could already go wrong without Bison's involvement in the world of Street Fighter very rapidly does, and there simply isn't anyone on the planet who can do enough to contain it, and thus, the Special Forces and Interpol and etc have no choice but to let Shadaloo take the lead. After all, their leader has a cunning plan to ensure warriors the world over will be lining up to make themselves known, a way for them to either recruit new heroes to their cause, or stop these new threats before they cause further damage.

Thus, Shadaloo remains the only force on the planet able to deal with the Satsui no Hadou and G and Necalli and the Secret Society and whatnot, thanks to their unparalleled scientific acumen, their legions of extremely well-provided footsoldiers (their food court is, of course, still amazing, just as it is in canon - and let's say this time they allowed Birdie to keep his haircut / didn’t make a guinea pig out of him so he's still working for them), and the powers of their leader and his elite warriors. Crucially, Shadaloo here is still very much a drug syndicate led by a dictator and this is how they fund their activities, I think we can actually keep most of their crimes intact as is (except for the Dolls though, the Dolls as a concept are gross and they make Shadaloo too gross, I'd get rid of them for nothing - Decapre can stay though), I think it’s hard to meaningfully separate the Kings from their deeds and stories so what I'm doing here is just flipping the script so they are, by default, in a more heroic position, possibly except for Sagat.

Sagat, I think is stuck in his Alpha state. Without Ryu in the picture, I don't think he quite finds the strength to meaningfully improve and overcome his self-loathing from that loss, or has that moral line in the sand moment to quit Shadaloo over, at least not soon. I think the shame over his loss and what it led to in the world, his own susceptability to the Dark Hadou, the lack of a guiding star in his life, being disconnected from his people and with only mounting regrets and a legacy of ashes to keep him company, would drive him to stay with Shadaloo. I think he would be the only one of the Four Kings who sincerely cares about stopping people from being hurt by these dark forces at play, and if nothing else, what little pride and decency he clings to won't let him lie down and die. A king cannot fail, even a disgraced king.

Balrog and Vega, I think remain more or less completely identical to their canon selves, with just less reasons to try and break off Shadaloo. Balrog follows the money and he's already said as much recently that he'll be a good guy if there's money in it, and Vega is a scumbag but driven by a sense of justice that can lead him to be occasionally decent if it tickles his fancy. Balrog maybe depends on if or when Ed comes along, because it depends also if Ed is gonna have a reason to break off from Shadaloo.

And as for Bison I think is more or less the same, maybe from the start closer to how he is in 6 than the other games, a bit less over-the-top cruel and more focused on power and mastery over himself. Bison very much still killed his teacher and is pursuing Psycho Power, still craves full mastery of his power and will burn through bodies like cheap cigarettes to attain it, is still very much on bad terms with Chun-Li and Guile and the Hawk tribe. He is a hero in that Doctor Doom in Secret Wars way, in the sense that he is undisputably a villain mainly saving the world so he can rule over it, but he is saving the world and doing a better job at it than everyone else. Nobody else seems to have much of a chance against these beings of mass destruction. M.Bison's quest for power has given him tools to combat and contain the darkness consuming martial artists the world over, and so nobody's really in a position to complain about him, not when nobody else has a fighting chance.

Sure, you may hate him, he is not even pretending to have anything in mind but global domination when he's through, but when Secret Society agents kidnap families and turn them into shapeshifting assassins against their will, when ancient warrior gods devour Yoga masters and the students they protected, when drooling berserkers fueled by the Satsui no Hadou wipe out entire villages (is, is that the rookie who beat Sagat among them?), who is going to protect you from those? Mayor Haggar, who lets Mad Gear criminals run the street? Colonel Guile, who couldn't even save his best friend from the Secret Society? That Interpol girl, Chun-Li or something, who torpedoed her career in fruitless attempts to accuse Bison of murdering her father? As if. Unfortunately for everyone, he was completely right to pursue power and mastery so obsessively, and the world owes him a debt of gratitude he intends to collect soon.

I prefer to keep these as close to their canon alignments and stations as possible but with ONE exception, and that's FANG, because I think you can actually get something pretty fun out of kind of morally flipping this guy. A FANG who, whether by circumstance or dumb luck, actually is something of a hero here. A FANG who never crossed paths with Bison, who took the reigns of the Nguuhao and reformed it into more of an assassin's guild, even ended the child kidnapping and rescued A.K.I still. He is still conniving and cruel and petty and pathetic, he is still shaped by his upbringing, he's just simply never been handed a lab and a budget and carte blanche to live out his mad scientist dreams, and so he's still in a survivalist street criminal mindset first and foremost, he's more preoccupied with the potential of his students and of course, by comparison to the world around him he's still pretty much a hero, if an unusually toxic one.

In these circumstances, one thing has not changed: He still MASSIVELY worships M.Bison, all the more so because he's never actually met the man. He's heard all the wonderful stories about this great and powerful ruler from the shadows who can defeat the mightiest and most dangerous fighters, and more than anything else, he wants to be by his side. All of the crimes people have accused M.Bison of? Ridiculous allegations, Street Fighter propaganda. He may help people in the streets as a healer and an assassin for now, but make no mistake, he would drop literally everything just to be allowed to enforce Pax Bisonica, which is why, of course, he will never get to do it, because FANG can never get what he wants. Born to be a world-class bootlicker for evil, forced to be a productive force of good instead.