#just another example of one of the many little things that pushed me from christianity

[a-god-in-ruins-rises]

"till death do us part" is because, according to christians, there will be no marriage in heaven

[saintmachina]

One million dollar question: is it true that the Bible condems homosexuality? I had a discussion with two conservatives who sent me some verses that seem to confirm that but i don't know much about the context although i know this is important too

Let’s start here: why is this the million dollar question? Why does it matter what the Bible has to say about sex, or love, or human relationships? At the end of the day, it’s just a book, right?

Oceans of ink (and blood) have been spilled over not only what the Bible says, but what it does, how it functions. The course of empires, nations, and families have been shaped by the contents of this book, and from a historical and cultural perspective, it holds a lot of weight. But you didn’t ask about the sociological, you asked about the theological, so let’s explore. 

Different Christian traditions vary in their approach to scripture. For example: some Protestant denominations believe that the Bible is inspired, inerrant, and infallible. In this paradigm, God is the ultimate author of scripture working through human hands, and the resulting text is both without error and in no way deceptive or mistaken. Similarly, The Second Vatican Council decreed that “the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.” When a member of the clergy is ordained into the Episcopal Church they swear that they “do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to salvation.”

Can you see how many of these points of doctrine overlap yet seek to distinguish themselves from one another? Theologians have spent lifetimes arguing over definitions, and even when they manage to settle on solid teachings, the way that the teaching is interpreted by the clergy and incorporated into the lives of the laity varies WIDELY. As much as systematic theology may try, humans aren’t systematic beings. We’re highly contextual: we only exist in relation to others, to history, to circumstance, and to the divine. We simply cannot call up God to confirm church teaching, and I think a lot of people cling excessively to the Bible as a result of the ache (dare I even say trauma) of being separated from God via space and time in the way we currently are.

God is here, but God is not here. God is within us, God is within the beloved, God is within the sea and sky and land, and yet we cannot grasp God to our bodies in the way we long to. In this earthly lifetime, we are forever enmeshed in God, yet forever distinct, and that is our great joy and our great tragedy.

So barring a direct spiritual experience or the actual second coming, we're left to sort through these things ourselves. And because humans are flawed, our interpretations will always be flawed. Even with the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives guiding us.

When engaging with any sort of Biblical debate, it is essential that you have a strong understanding of what the Bible means to you, an an embodied individual living a brief little awful and wonderful life on Earth. Otherwise it's easy to get pushed around by other people’s convincing-sounding arguments and sound bites.

Here’s where I show my hand. As a confirmed Episcopalian I believe that reason, tradition, and scripture form the “three-legged stool” upon which the church stands, interdependent and interrelational to each other, but I’ve also like, lived a life outside of books. I’ve met God in grimy alleyways and frigid ocean waters and in bed with my lovers. So my stool is actually four-legged, because I think it’s essential to incorporate one’s personal experience of God into the mix as well. (I did not invent this: it’s called the Wesleyan quadrilateral, but the official Wesleyan quadrilateral insists that scripture must trump all other legs of the table in the case of a conflict which...*cynical noises*)

Please do not interpret this answer as me doing a hand-wavey "it's all vibes, man, we're all equally right and equally wrong", but I do absolutely think we have a responsibility as creatures to weigh the suffering and/or flourishing of our fellow creatures against teachings handed down through oral tradition, schisms, imperial takeover of faith, and translation and mistranslation. Do I believe the Bible is sacred, supernatural even, and that it contains all things necessary to find one's way to God, if that is the way God chooses to manifest to an individual in a given lifetime? Absolutely. Do I believe it is a priceless work of art and human achievement that captures ancient truths and the hopes of a people (as well as a record of their atrocities) through symbols, stories, and signs? Unto my death, I do.

However, I am wary of making an object of human creation, God-breathed though it may be, into an idol, and trapping God in its pages like God is some sort of exotic bug we can pin down with a sewing needle.

Finally, we have reached the homosexuality debate. One of my favorite sayings of Jesus is Matthew 5: 15-17: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit." In other words: look at what religious teachings have wrought in the world. When I look at homophobic interpretations of the Bible, I see destruction, abuse, suffering, neglect, alienation, spiritual decay, and death. When I look at theology that affirms the holiness of LGBTQ+ relationships, I see joy, laughter, community building, thoughtful care, blooming families, creativity, resilience, and compassion. I see the love of Christ at work in the world. I see the hands of a God who chose under no duress to take up residence in a human body, to drink wine with tax collectors and break bread with sex workers and carry urchin children around on his shoulders. That's my limited little pet interpretation, but hey, that's all any of us really have, at the end of the day.

So, I am absolutely happy to do a play-by-play breakdown of why those passages you were given (we queer Christians often call them "clobber passages" or "texts of terror") don't hold water in a theological, historical, and cultural context. We can talk about Jesus blessing the eunuch and the institution of Greek pederasty and Levitical purity laws and Paul because I've done that reading. I've spent my nights crying in self-hatred and leafing through doctrine books and arguing with my pastors and writing long grad school essays on the subjects. Send me the verses, if you can remember them, and I'll take a look. But it's worth noting that out of the entire Bible, I believe there are only six that explicitly condemn homosexuality AND I'm being generous and including Sodom and Gommorah here, which is a willful and ignorant misreading if I've ever seen one.

In the meantime, I recommend books by people smarter than me! Try Outside The Lines: How Embracing Queerness Will Transform Your Faith by Mihee Kim-Kort, or Does Jesus Really Love Me by Jeff Chu, or Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians by Austen Hartke!

And take a breath, dear one. Breathe in God, in the droplets of water in the air and in the wind from the south. Breathe in the gift of life, and know that you are loved, now and unto the end of the age and even beyond then.

[frostyreturns]

Frosty Ruins Rudolph

Rudolph is a yearly staple of the Christmas season, it's a childrens classic that's lasted generation after generation for a reason. There's just something uniquely appealing about a Rankin-Bass stop motion Christmas special. I think one thing that makes this such a fun watch is the stop motion. You can tell a lot of work went into making it, the designs are terrific, everything looks very Christmasey. The animation style is an anachronism that makes it unique and charming. However even though this is a nostalgia laced classic that has a lot that I love in it...there's a bit that annoys me about it as well.

For one thing it was one of the earliest examples of secularizing Christmas, Rudolph was always the Christmas carol that could be sung in school because it never had anything to do with Christianity or the birth of Christ. Not only that but it didn't have any Christian messages in it either...which leads to my main criticism of the special.

It's essentially a progressive fairy tale. It's not enough that it not be Christian, not enough that it not have any religious connection at all...but it was a thinly veiled leftist prog morality tale. You have a character not accepted for the colour of their "nose" and a "dentist" elf which is definitely not an allegory for accepting gays. A message that has no place in a childrens program...nevermind a Christmas one. It's an attempt to subvert and ilfitrate the holiday and turn it from it's original meaning into being just another victim of the progressive machine, where the only appropriate messaging is cultural marxism and identity politics, progressivism in all things and all things in progressivism. Santa is already a departure from the true meaning of Christmas...but it at least has threads to the true meaning, the connection to a Christian folk hero in saint Nicholas, and the gift giving as a tradition going back to the first Christmas. The spirit of giving and helping the poor...these Christian values still remain in the tale of Santa Claus. However even that was too religious and needed to be made about race and sexuality instead.

Honestly if this was made today I would hate everything about it. I think many would boycott it as just another out of touch prog piece of media that misses the point to push their political agenda. However it was made with a little more subtlty and it was made at a time where everyone wasn't sick to death of hearing the same shit over and over again. It was probably a novel idea at the time and nobody would have imagined the cancerous destruction these ideals and their purveyors would wreak on our society and how far it would decline once we started shirking all normalcy because a stop motion elf asked "Who decides the test of what is really best." Well if you're a prog then nobody, you should be celebrated for being different no matter what and all drifting from the norm is good regardless of what the norm is or why it's the norm. There is no objective truth and you should do what thou whilt, anything that you want is good because you want it. If you're a Christian and you're celebrating the birth of your lord and savior Jesus Christ then the answer is the one true omniscient God, thanks for asking...jot that down.

While the musical Christmas special has no songs about Jesus it does have a song about how cool silver and gold are. Now at this point of a critical evaluation of this specials merits as a Christmas story you might be wondering...who wrote these songs, who wrote this movie? You must not ask these questions because that would be anti-semitic, but if you did ask such an anti-semitic question then yes you'd discover more than a few people involved have a propensity for precious metals making appearances in last names.

It's also kind of annoying that the story makes everyone out to be such collosal ass holes. It's a Christmas story that makes Santa an ass hole, it makes all the reindeer ass holes it makes the elves ass holes...everyone is acting like a hamfisted dick. They have Santa siding with the others who were teasing Rudolph for something he was born with and even shaming his father for producing him...and then only changing his mind when he finds a use for the freak Reindeer. None of the messages are Christmasey and frankly I don’t agree with them at all. 

That being said it’s still a fun little Christmas special, the songs are classic, the animation is great and I can enjoy it despite my political objections.

[icecreambeach]

I like the ocean analogy, but I think this idea of binaries gets a bad rap. (Alternate title: I'm taking this opportunity to have Thoughts about the Force.) (Also, the user's use of the ocean metaphor STILL implies a binary: shallow vs. deep.)

A lot of people hear the word 'binary' and automatically think it's describing something over-simplified or just downright false. But the Force is only thought of as a binary because human minds can only conceptualize reality via binaries: nothing and something. Something couldn't exist without nothing. It's the nothing that makes the something, something! We can only establish the existence of a thing when we notice it, and we only notice it if it's somehow different from the other things around it. (But also, things exist together! Is the wind pushing the leaves, or are the leaves pulling the wind? OooOoOoo—)

And it's this friction—or to use another word, this conflict ("it's star WARS not star PEACE")—that creates everything we know. It's considered wisdom in many cultures to be able to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time. It's one way to best approximate Truth.

The dark side is evil, and it can never die. The light can also never stop fighting it. The balance doesn't exist in stasis; the scales are constantly shifting. Neither can ever fully win, and the seed of one resides in the heart of the other. Yin and Yang.

The Force is all of that. The Force only appears to have a will in instances where the individual goes extremely far into one polarity, like in the above examples. It's not a mass that swallows. It's everything. It's not even really just a force/energy. It's All That Is. It CERTAINLY does not have an individual will. It's just individuals (or sometimes groups) projecting their own will upon its faceless face. (Even the concept of Good vs. Evil is a Single-Perspective-Haver's idea that means little to the cosmic/All-Perspective of the Force. When you are infinite, it all comes out in the wash. But that's going down a road that would lead to a whole other essay.)

This is why the idea of midi-chlorians is so bad. lol. It takes away the inherently unknowable aspect of the force that mimics its real-life equivalent as explored in the Tao. It turns being force-sensitive into a scientifically measurable trait, which, if you read about the Tao, is sort of the antithesis of the whole concept. Its invisibility and inability to be defined is MAYBE its only true definition. (If you think this is confusing, congrats, you get it. Oh you think you get it? Then you don't get it.)

"Chi," the Chinese concept of a life force present in all living things, is what inspired Lucas (though I'd take it even further to include the inorganic.) Nothing exists independently of anything else because everything is connected. Granted, Lucas's iteration is extremely Westernized, and he himself said he pulled from "all major religions" in a Hero-with-a-Thousand-Faces mono-myth fashion (which, idk if I agree with the concept of the mono-myth,) but the Taoist origins are, to me, the basic building blocks and should be adhered to above the rest of the Christian window dressing.

Because while I get that Lucas only wrote in midi-chlorians so he could have Qui-gon point to scientific (Western) evidence (because God forbid Western audiences have to accept a more 'woo-woo' test, like the Council all just feeling for Anakin's latent powers and all agree 'oo yeah this kid has Got It,') this is why Star Wars is Appropriation Central. You can't just slap bits of many different religious beliefs together and call it a day. Either the Force is What Is, the underlying FORCE of the entire universe AS WELL AS the Void implied by the dichotomy of Something vs. Nothing, or it's Daddy God and Baby Jesus. Or a secret third thing. It's like rummaging in a stranger's medicine cabinet and taking a prescription not meant for you. (This is also why most Americans, including me, suck at meditation btw.)

This is also why the Cosmic Force/Living Force thing is bad. It's basically "God created Life, but God is separate from Life." This Christian idea of divinity as separate from "earthliness" sucks. It's all the Force, baby! You ARE the universe experiencing itself!

This is ALSO also why I hate the fanon of "Grey Jedi." The whole point is that the Force is Light vs. Dark. Sure, a Jedi who is generally dedicated to the Light (compassion, peace, a belief in the inherent value of life) can make some decisions that seem Dark, but again, it's all about the Balance. Tip too far into one direction and the momentum can drag you down with it. Anakin wanted to stay in the Light, but due to many factors, he was unable to resist the Dark. Both have, I think, magnetic pulls, but the Dark is more seductive because it's easier, it often FEELS better, and pain can make us short-sighted. People who want characters to be Grey Jedi just want them to be Light Jedi who don't behave quite as monk-like as, say, Obi-wan or Yoda. Ahsoka is still a Light Jedi. So, Kreia saying, "I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost," welp... that's Sith-talk, whether she believes it or not. The Force has no will, she's just sad about, /waves hand. All the atrocities. Which, legit. Just gotta work on that attachment babe. (And she did wind up a Sith anyway, so.)

I DO love different cultures with their own unique understandings of the Force. The Council sure as shit didn't have it perfectly figured out. As an inherently unknowable Thing/Concept, cultural/individual interpretations of it are EVERYTHING. The mind creates reality.

I like to imagine a remote planet where their Force-sensitives do nothing but help build homes for their community. To them, it IS all about just moving rocks!

You know, with all the language throughout Star Wars about “giving in” to the Dark Side, how the Dark Side makes you more powerful, how the Dark Side makes you age strangely and destroys you, it sure doesn’t sound like an “opposite side of the coin” so much as the “deeper end of the pool,” like it’s actually the true form of the force and being a Jedi is about keeping it tamed so it doesn’t eat you the way it actually wants.

[southerngraceful]

While We Wait, He Waits

We’re often reminded to be patient with God—to trust that He works in His own time, never early, never late. We hear that His timing is perfect, and that He uses trials, frustrations, and seasons of life to teach us patience. But here’s something we don’t talk about enough: how patient God is with us.How often do we push ahead with our own plans, only to turn back to Him when things don’t work out? In those moments, we might forget that while we’re learning to wait on Him, He’s already been waiting on us—patiently, lovingly, all along.

The Bible is full of stories showing just how patient God is. Time and again, He waits on us to try things our own way before we finally come back to Him, asking for help. His patience is shown all over in Scripture:

Adam and Eve: After their big mistake in the Garden of Eden, God didn’t just give up on them. He set a plan in motion to bring them—and us—back to Him (Genesis 3).

Noah’s Generation: Before the flood, God put up with humanity’s wickedness for years, giving people plenty of chances to change their ways (Genesis 6:5-7, 1 Peter 3:20).

The Israelites: During their 40 years wandering in the wilderness, God didn’t abandon the Israelites, even when they were constantly complaining and disobeying Him (Exodus 16-17, Numbers 14).

Moses: God was patient with Moses, even when he doubted himself and tried to back out of leading the Israelites (Exodus 3-4).

Jonah: When Jonah tried to run away from what God asked him to do, God didn’t just let him go. He gave him another chance (Jonah 1-4).

David: Even after David’s serious mess-ups, like adultery and murder, God didn’t write him off. He forgave David when he repented (2 Samuel 11-12, Psalm 51).

Peter and the Disciples: Jesus was so patient with His disciples, especially Peter, who denied Him three times. But Jesus welcomed Peter back with open arms (Luke 22:31-34, John 21:15-19).

Paul (Saul of Tarsus): Instead of punishing Saul for persecuting Christians, God completely transformed him into one of the most important voices for the gospel (Acts 9, 1 Timothy 1:16).

All of Us: God’s patience is for everyone. He doesn’t want anyone to miss out on knowing Him, and He’s not in a rush—He waits for us to come to Him (2 Peter 3:9).

All these examples show just how much God is willing to wait for us. He gives us time, space, and so many opportunities to turn back to Him because He loves us that much. God's willingness to wait and give us the opportunity to repent and return to Him is a testimony to His loving nature.

Honestly, there are days when I feel like I’m just running my own race, charging ahead full speed, thinking I’ve got it all figured out. And I imagine God watching, perhaps shaking His head, just waiting for me to slow down, realize I’m off course, and finally let Him guide me. He’s so patient, waiting for me to finally tire myself out, be still and listen. To hear His leading voice and to notice those little nudges He’s been sending my way.

I’m so grateful for God’s patience with me. I’m so thankful that God is endlessly patient with me, that He waits for me to come to Him, even when I’ve tried to do it all on my own. He still shows up, still finds favor in me, and I’m beyond thankful that He waits for me to catch up and be present with Him.

As I reflect on the vastness of God’s patience, I’m reminded that it’s not just about waiting on God—it’s about recognizing that He’s waiting on us, too. Maybe it’s time to ask: how often do I take His patience for granted? And what would change if I slowed down enough to meet Him in that place of stillness, letting His love and guidance lead the way?

[153-cm]

13/11/23

When I say that ***** ruined my life, I mean it. Let’s unpack that though. There seems to be a refusal to take accountability for my actions. I can also argue that he didn’t take accountability for his. I can say that he didn’t step up and apologize appropriately, but I can also say that I didn’t give him the space to do so. That relationship changed my life. I’m still left with so many scars. I’m always looking over my shoulder, wondering if he’s out to get me. Maybe I need to grow up. I know it’s been years, but I’m still hurt by what he did and said. I need to start acting like an adult, though. I find myself constantly blaming him for what my life is like now. Sure, he had a part to play in how things turned out. I am the main arbiter of my life, though. I have more agency than I think I have. I get to decide how my life should turn out. 

That’s the thing, you see. I can end relationships with people and still hold on to unanswered pleas. Like the whole *** gang, for example. I know shit went south last year. I still invited them over to my house earlier this year, and they still came over. I feel like I’ve extended my hand, only for those efforts to be unreciprocated. I don’t even know where I stand with my friends now. I know some people will always have my back, but I don’t see them often. It’s lonely. I’m lonely. 

I know I have a wonderful boyfriend, but having friends is a different story altogether. I understand that I have trust issues with people, and I’m trying to get over them. I don’t know how, though. I think it all started in secondary school when I had a friend who turned on me for no reason. She was a close friend, but one day she decided not to be friends anymore. Of course, I’ve let go of that friendship (it’s been years) - it’s just me acknowledging where my trust issues come from. 

I don’t know social cues, and I feel like an alien most of the time. I don’t know who to talk to, or what to do sometimes. It’s like…I know I’m surrounded by lovely people but I’m also afraid of reaching out. I guess I’m scared. I’m scared of losing more people. I think this fear of losing someone comes from losing ***** as a friend. I don’t think about her anymore, but sometimes I do get dreams about us still being friends. Even as I’m typing this now, it still hurts a bit. Just a bit. 

I get so emotionally attached to people. I do. It scares me. You can’t love someone without a little pain. There is a possibility of losing anyone as a friend. Friendships are fleeting. Anyone can choose to give up and walk out at any time. 

Maybe I shouldn’t blame myself. For everything I’ve said in this blog post. I shouldn’t blame anyone. I need to break out of the frame of thinking where I’m constantly pushing the blame onto someone. The blame can just be floating in the air. Nobody needs to take the blame. The blame doesn’t have to be put on anyone. I learn and I grow. It’s fine. My therapist says that I might be acoustic, so there’s that. 

On another note, I haven’t been keeping up with my church community. I want to give Christianity a shot, but I haven’t been putting in the effort. I haven’t been going to bible study or even going to church. I want to, though. Ugh, this is just. I know that I’m easily influenced by the friends I keep, and this is a problem. Especially because I’m trying to be a good Christian while having friends who don’t believe in Christ. My life was at its peak this year when I was at church camp. I think that church camp this year was the closest I’ve ever been to God. 

[imunbreakabledude]

@fifthnormani replied: I want to TRY to answer that question (at least from my own perspective). I do try to avoid adding the Jewish part and just say "zionist" BECAUSE Israel is trying so hard to change the definition of antisemitism to mean antizionism and I want to push back against it, make it clear they are not the same thing.

And also, just like how ISIS and Osama and whatever… led to a lot of good people believing propaganda about Islam being a Bad Religion, I worry too about my fellow goy believing that Judaism is a Bad Religion full of Bad People so I try to push back against that. So yes, I try to just say "zionist" and not "Jewish" for those reasons. And also remind them of the 9:1 ratio of Christian zionists. I hope this answers your question?

hi, replying to your replies in a reblog just since it's a little easier text-wise but let me know if you're not comfortable with this and I'll remove this post.

I do appreciate this perspective. and here are a few thoughts it sparks in me, not meant to be read as any sort of rebuke, just, my own personal feelings in response

I think it is great to understand that "Jewish" and "Zionist" are separate terms with separate meanings and think about which one is appropriate to use in which situation! I would also add that personally, I think being a Jewish Zionist or a non-Jewish Zionist is a distinction that not always but OFTEN can help set important context in discussion of a person or group. I also think what country (or countries) that person lives in or has lived in are often relevant to contextualizing their viewpoint - I often see people conflate "Israeli" and "Zionist" or use them interchangeably, which imo is also unhelpful in most cases. Even Israeli Jewish Zionists and US Jewish Zionists are coming at it from different contexts and while that might not be obvious from the outside, hoo boy, it's a thing. I think MOST if not all discussions of individuals and groups w/r/t this issue require more precise description than simply Zionist or not zionist/antizionist.

"Israel is trying so hard to change the definition of antisemitism to mean antizionism" - Not trying to be needlessly nitpicky here (esp bc you may well know this but were limited by character count in your reply and thus used shorthand) but it's not just "Israel" doing this; it's a lot of different types of people who push this for similar but slightly different reasons. The ADL is a major player in this push and that's a US-based organization (don't wanna get into a dissection of the ADL's reasons for doing that and all the complicated icky nature of it here, that is a whole big can of worms, but in any case they are not an Israeli group). I'm sure you've seen how conservative politicians in the US have pushed that notion, too - not only to help justify US military aid to Israel, but also to seize a chance to attack universities, and especially women (and women of color) in leadership positions in higher education. For another (non-exhaustive) example, that conflation of criticism of Israel with antisemitism is also somewhat entrenched in Germany, at least in part because "Guilt over the Holocaust sits deep in the national psyche. ... Critics say that has become the pretext for unconditional support [of Israel]."

As for the comparison to Islamophobia in the US due to propaganda and the "war on terror"... I agree with you; I think that's a good analogy. But I disagree somewhat with your takeaway from that analogy. I would pose this comparison - which I will preface by saying it's IMPERFECT, but I hope it's still clear what I mean. I would compare the way "zionist" is being used by many people lately to the word "terrorist" in the context of Islamophobia. Like "Zionist", "terrorist" takes the focus away from the person or group's religious or ethnic background and puts it on their actions instead - which is how we WANT to think of things, right? People aren't bad because of what they ARE, but because of what they DO, right? However, as you know, in the last couple decades (and still in the present) "terrorist" starts to have a... certain association with it, in the US. It becomes a loaded word, and in some contexts, a dogwhistle. And it doesn't mean EVERY time that word is used, it's being used as a dogwhistle, that's the tricky part. I wanna be clear here that I do not believe (as some have begun claiming, lately) that "Zionist" is becoming a dogwhistle or slur for Jews overall. But I think it's beginning to enter into a similar territory as "terrorist" in that, while there are many people using it appropriately where it is a descriptor that makes sense, there are also some who have begun using it as a shorthand. A catch-all word for "people on the wrong side of this issue," which then translates into "people who are okay to hate," or even "people that We, as Good People, have an obligation to hate and shun." I will say once more because I don't want to be misinterpreted, I DO NOT MEAN TO SAY THAT ALL USES OF THE WORD "ZIONIST" ARE PROBLEMATIC, nor that Zionism should not be criticized, nor it should not be used as a descriptor where it is an appropriate descriptor. But I WILL push back against using it as a single-descriptor-shorthand, because as I said above, I think that's more harmful than helpful in A LOT of contexts. imo the best practice is to think about a) the context of who the person/org you're talking about is, and b) what specific words, actions, or beliefs they have that prompt you to put them in the category of "zionist" - because people use that label for a huuuuuuuge range of things from like "posted 'i stand with israel' on october 8" to "government or military leader who is an active force extending the ongoing genocide." And that's not even to mention the fact that the word "zionist" itself means completely different things to many self-identified Zionists than it does to self-identified antizionists (i think I've posted about that on here before), which is not to say that holding Zionist viewpoints is fine and chill and shouldn't be criticized, but that this difference of definition further complicates the use of that word as a catch-all descriptor of "people who are Wrong"

gotta go out of bullet points for this next bit because i had more to say than I thought lol. once again, I don't intend for this to sound harsh or angry at YOU whatsoever, just my own frustrations with certain narratives I've seen around this issue in general.

re: the 9-to-1 ratio (which I must disclaim here I conjured from memory from that instagram post so I'm not certain if that's an accurate/exact statistic) of Christian Zionists to Jewish Zionists. So, like i said, that's important info to know, it's good context, I'm not saying anyone SHOULDN'T talk about that. And I can see why that statistic, especially to non-jewish antizionists, feels like something worth highlighting. And I'm sure it feels comforting, too, like that bit at the end of a Scooby-Doo episode when they pull the mask off the ghost and it's just a guy. "ooh, phew, turns out Zionism is actually just a White Western Christian problem!"

But the truth is that 9-to-1 ratio says way less about "Jews are totally not culpable for the harms caused by Zionism" and way more about how small the global Jewish population is.

Jews are about 2% of the US population and 0.2% of the global population. So right away, if we go from that supposed 9:1 ratio, even without doing any math (I WOULD do the math out if I was certain of the accuracy of that statistic, but I also can't remember if it was attempting to break down Zionists solely in the US or in the world), you can tell that Jewish people are a wee bit over-represented in that "10%" of Zionists.

In other words, just because a majority of Zionists are not Jewish, that does not imply that that a majority of Jews are not Zionists.

It's a bit tricky to actually answer the question "what percent of Jewish people are Zionists and what percent are not?" for several reasons, including:

as mentioned before, "Zionist" and non-Zionist/anti-zionist tend to have different meanings within the Jewish community than they do to many outside of it

relatedly, a lot of Jewish people have complicated feelings around this issue and prefer not to explicitly situate themselves in one of those particular categories, which makes it tougher to measure

even determining who counts as JEWISH for the purpose of these statistics can sometimes be contentious (look at the link above to Wikipedia's page on the Jewish population to see some of the breakdown of how and why different people are sometimes counted or not counted)

even when this research is done, sometimes the groups conducting and/or reporting this data have their own agendas which can contribute to misleading presentation of the data. :/

But anyway. With all those caveats, let's look at some of the data that's out there for American Jews specifically. (I'm gonna pull out some of the most relevant statistics from these Pew research polls, but I do recommend clicking the links and reading thru all the data collected - there are lots of different questions asked and breakdowns by age, political affiliation, level of religious observance, etc.)

As of February 2024, 74% of US Jewish adults surveyed supported US military aid to Israel. (lower percentages in the 18-34 age bracket, but still a majority - 61%.)

As of February 2024, 89% of US Jewish adults surveyed said they see Israel's reasons for the war on Hamas (Pew research's wording, not mine) as valid, and 62% of US Jewish adults surveyed said they believed the way Israel is carrying out its war in Gaza is acceptable.

There's obviously even more nuance and detail to dig into there (and I encourage doing so!) but to circle back to the original point of my first post and my response to your response... (deep breath)...

It is true that a majority of "Zionists" (in simplest terms) are not Jewish. But it is also true that a majority of Jews are "Zionists" (in simplest terms).

So, avoiding addressing the relationship between Judaism and Zionism, in my opinion, is not so helpful as it might seem to be to you or other well-meaning allies. Because... If your goal is to avoid your comments being perceived as antisemitic, just saying "Zionist" and never talking about the overlap of Zionism and Judaism might well leave you in the clear with other non-Jews. but it will not put you in the clear with a significant portion of Jews. I am not saying that is my own personal opinion, but it is true that many Jewish people hear statements of condemnation of all "Zionists" as fundamentally antisemitic - (often due to them working with a different definition of "Zionist", as I've written about before). You might be picturing a Republican US Congressman who gleefully calls all Gazan people "terrorists" and takes money from AIPAC to campaign for sending more and more bombs to Israel when you say something like "Zionists need to go", but a bunch of Jews are hearing that and thinking you want them expelled from their homes or killed simply for holding the belief that Jewish people should be safe in their homeland. (Again, that is not my personal belief, but that is the kind of interpretation you will get from some people if you are not specific in your wording).

Plus, a lack of specificity just obfuscates what you're talking about. If you want to talk about an issue that's specifically or mainly due to Christian Zionists, then say that. If you want to talk about an issue that's specifically or mainly due to US oil interests in the middle east and how its military support for israel is largely motivated by that, then say that. Those are real issues that SHOULD be talked about. But... they're not the whole story?? and just like you can't be antiracist without ever talking about race, you can't avoid being antisemitic ('being antiantisemitic', if you will? lmao) without ever talking about Jews, including the fact that many, but not all, Jews, within Israel and in other countries, support Israel's conduct in this war and in the last 100 years with few or no qualms. There are also many Jews who support it with LARGE AMOUNTS OF QUALMS, or do not support it whatsoever. Yep. But learning more and understanding about that range of viewpoints, and yes, sitting in the truth that this is a Jewish issue as much as it is an American/Western issue, is important.

Yes, we should talk about Christian Zionists and US Imperialism, but we should also talk about the far-right nationalist movement in Israel that basically amounts to Jewish Supremacy and, believe it or not, is not the position of all Israelis. And we should also talk about the attitude held by a large portion of both Israeli and US Jews that amounts to some version of, "Well, the far-right nationalists and Netanyahu suck, but Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are too dangerous and antisemitism is too powerful, so we have no choice but to support the slaughter of Palestinians in order to keep Jews safe", which you may rightfully feel is just as bad of a mindset as that held by the far-right nationalists who actively WANT to kill or expel all Palestinians, but it is a distinct mindset. We should also talk about paths forward that address the fact Jewish people do have history in the Levant, but so do Palestinians, obviously, and both have a right to be there, but Jews' right to be there cannot come at the expense or exclusion of Palestinians. And we should talk about the fact that Zionism as a notion is fueled in part by a legitimate desire of some Jews to remain in a land where they have heritage, as well as a legitimate fear of antisemitism across the world. I believe none of that remotely justifies the material consequences of Zionism, but it is important to understand and acknowledge that those factors play a significant role in the history of Israel and Palestine as well as the present and future, because that is reality. And yeah, a lot of non-Jewish people and forces have become major proponents of Zionism over the years because they find it useful for their own reasons, but it was a Jewish movement at the start. Trying to ignore that won't prevent antisemitism. Antisemitism existed long before Zionism, and antisemitism is not based in logic. So avoiding the fact that some (or even a lot) of Jewish people are, to different degrees and for different reasons, on the "wrong" side of this issue, does nothing to stop antisemitism.

tl;dr I guess you could say BROADLY my frustration is more with a lack of detail and nuance around this issue in general in favor of a black and white, "Israel vs. Palestine," "Zionist (wrong) vs. AntiZionist (good)" framing. but when it comes to the particular area of discussing how Judaism and Jewish people fit in, I believe that more clarity and specificity is the key to addressing antisemitism, rather than just trying to tiptoe around it.

saw a post saying “the only reason Israel exists is because of western oil interests” - and my thoughts here aren’t specific to that one post but a similar Sentiment I feel like I’ve seen a bunch… it feels… off to me when I see ppl on the left express this notion that Israel is wrong and evil BUT NOT Jewish!!! They don’t want to be antisemitic and they know that Israel does not represent all Jews, and they also want to call out other factors that ARE very significant factors in the past & present of Israel’s militarized existence, but they go so hard in that direction that like… it gives me the Bad Vibes in a different way. Different example that gave me a similar feeling - couple weeks back I remember seeing several friends shared an insta post that was all about Christian Zionism with stats and graphs showing the numbers of Christian zionists, how way more zionists are Christians than Jews, like a 9:1 ratio, and it also said something like “ZIONISM IS ANTISEMITISM”. Which - I wanna be clear, I do think raising awareness of that info is helpful, and I do personally feel that Zionism is harmful to everyone including Jews (but I wouldn’t call it ��antisemitic’ bc I feel that’s deliberately pushing the limits of words in a way that less clear and more inflammatory than it should be).

But anyway both of these examples feel that common thread to me of like - calling out REAL factors that are at play in Israel’s creation, continued existence, relationship with US (and other) imperialism, but also… like… trying so hard to say “it’s not about Jews, it’s not about Jews at alllllllll!” When like. IT IS A LITTLE ABOUT JEWS, PAL? and it’s okay to acknowledge that?? And honestly I think trying that hard to ignore or talk around the notion of Israel as a Jewish homeland EVEN IF YOU DO NOT PERSONALLY AGREE WITH THAT NOTION OR THE WAY ZIONISM HAS USED VIOLENCE AND COLONIALISM TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, just makes it harder to contend w the reality of the situation. let alone communicate w people who aren’t already on the same exact page about this issue as you are. Like this attempt to try to critique Israel while so desperately talking around the Jewish part is well-meaning, I know, and probably in part a practical defense/response against those who continue to lob accusations of antisemitism against any critique of Israel, but at some point you sound ridiculous

[thepaininurneck]

Okay, wow, never in my life did I think a music video involving giving Satan a lap dance would delve into a conversation about gay rights ( and how gay men are portrayed in media ), but Lil Nas X broke the world with MONTERO, so here I am. We’ve got three things here that I think are important - Internet culture, religion, sexuality. These are the things that I think people are getting too uptight over/not upset enough over, and I wanna rant for a bit, so bear with me on this one.

First, I LOVED MONTERO. I’m a whore for religious imagery/theming/etc. being used in media, and as a former Christian and an openly gay woman, it makes me very happy to see it used in a spiteful manner. MONTERO was gorgeous - sexual, unapologetic, and so clearly pulling straight from Biblical stories. The religion used commonly against us ( here in the US, at least, because I know other religions can be just as oppressive, if not worse, and Christianity isn’t the dominant religion everywhere ) being used in a way that’s expressive of our lives is beautiful. The very clear message of “Oh, I’m going to hell? That’s okay,” is perfect - for so many LGBT people in this country, we’ve been told that we’re condemned to eternal punishment because of something we can’t help. LNX took that in stride and made it art, with MONTERO and the video. I am in full support of it and will be throwing it on my horny playlist.

But here’s why I think this is so important - MONTERO’s release has exposed, in my opinion, where the real issues lie in Western culture. WAP did this too, a little - both of these songs, and their accompanying videos, were criticized using children. “Children watch you”, “how could you expose kids to this”, etc. were complaints hurled at Cardi B and LNX over their music. And in LNX’s case, people used his previous success with Old Town Road - I saw one tweet saying Old Town Road is “every kid’s anthem”, and that their children love Old Town Road. Which is problematic - how can you complain about MONTERO, but allow your child to listen to a song with lyrics such as “Lean all in my bladder”, “Cheated on my baby, you can go and ask her”, “Bull riding and boobies” - Old Town Road is not a child-friendly song by any means, but LNX didn’t include naked breasts, or ( as far as I’m aware ) market the song in a way that showcased those lyrics. So parents let their children enjoy their funny horse song, never looking into the words their kids were hearing daily. But with MONTERO, because they saw at a glance that it was an issue, they assumed this meant the previously “child-friendly” artist LNX, the man behind the funny horse song, was suddenly trying to indoctrinate their children. When in reality, LNX has never catered to kids. He’s always been open about his music and himself, and it’s entirely the parents’ faults for not better monitoring what media their children take in. It is never the responsibility of the creator to change their content for an audience they didn’t want. MONTERO, and WAP, both exposed just how internet culture has allowed parents an excuse to be lazy, hands-off pieces of shit, and demonize creators further.

MONTERO also exposed how homophobia continues to follow us, in how many comments there were calling LNX predatory, claiming he was indoctrinating children and pushing agendas - and, with Kaitlin Bennet’s actual racist comments, now he’s being slandered. ( if you didn’t see that beef, TLDR: Kaitlin asked “do you still see your dad?” w/ blatant intent to hurt, LNX replied with “yeah and I’ll fuck yours”, to which Kaitlin accused him of threatening to rape her father and several small, conservative ‘journalists’ ran with it ). I don’t like throwing around the word homophobia, but this isn’t new - gay men have been called predatory for a long time and demonized for even small gestures like holding hands. And now, an openly gay man made a video celebrating his sexuality ( which isn’t a new topic: look at any music video from the early 2000s for more examples of people expressing sexuality ) and given fuel to these idiots to continue pushing their narrative of “gay man predator, gay man bad”. Fortunately, it’s a lot less than it would’ve been thirty years ago. But the fact that it still happens on this scale, enough that journalists pick it up as a story, and governors, Candace Owens and other prominent homophobic conservative figures jump on the bandwagon....it’s sad. A man celebrating his sexuality shouldn’t be demonized the way it is, and MONTERO is doing an amazing job at spitting in people’s faces.

Cutting myself short here, I think MONTERO was a gift. It’s a work of art in many ways, but the social response it generated is also a blessing in that it shows what we need to prioritize - which is self responsibility. No one is forcing you to watch the gay man give Satan a lap dance, nor are they forcing you to buy his shoes. No one will ever force you into that - you, a consenting adult/teenager, willingly watched it. You’re reading this now of your own choice. If your child is watching MONTERO, you should blame yourself if you’re mad - why didn’t you monitor them better? Teach them to avoid things they don’t recognize online? You failed as a parent to protect your child from what you deem harmful. That isn’t anyone’s fault except your own as their active guardian.

Sex, talking about sex, grinding, lap dances....those aren’t new to music videos. They’ve been happening for decades, actually - early 90’s and 2000’s videos had a lot, and I think some 80’s had them. MONTERO didn’t invent NSFW music videos, the only difference is it’s gay and dared to use religious imagery ( which also isn’t new, but that’s another rant I don’t want to get into ). For once, I actually agree with the masses - this outrage was mostly fueled by homophobia and dumb Christians. And to any Christians reading this ( that didn’t get offended, because if you got genuinely upset by this drama, fuck you ); you’re cool.

Anyways, yeah. I think MONTERO was awesome, LNX killed it as always, and I hate conservatives. Goodnight.

[progressivejudaism]

I want to share with you an exchange that I had with a Messianic “Rabbi.”  If you are not Jewish, I especially suggest skimming this.

Hi friends,

Rabbi Josh here (he/him) with an installment of “let’s learn why Messianic ‘Judaism’ is problematic and dangerous.” 

Last week, I contacted an organization that calls themselves the “Jewish Voice Ministries” - an Evangelical Christian, far-right group cosplaying as Jews with the goal of using humanitarian work to convert as many Jews as possible to their ministry.   You can learn more about their “white saviorist” message that they use as a cover for their three major goals - which conflict with each other; the first two being the goal to convert Jews, while the third being to support Jews and the State of Israel.  (Hot take- one cannot simultaneously want to eradicate Jews and Judaism; while also supporting Jews and the State of Israel.)

I’ve included both screen shots of the respones and my own commentary below.

I would love to hear your compassionate thoughts on this organization and this figure in reblogs and comments.  All antisemitic, racist, and otherwise inappropriate responses will result in a ban from the PJBlog.

I sent the following message to the organization, hoping for answers to why they do what they do:

Hi there, I’m a little confused regarding your messaging here. Why are you identifying as Jews but yet preaching about Christian theology? As I’m sure that you’re aware, this is a classic antisemitic trope that is not okay. I’m a rabbi with now ten years of academic schooling. I would absolutely love to come to your Church and teach about how to be a better friend to the Jewish People. Please let me know how I can support you on your journey to eliminating antisemitic and bigotry aimed at Jews. L’shalom, Rabbi Josh

A “Messianic Rabbi” responded to this message.  Instead of directly replying to this figure only to get into an ethical stalemate, I would like to use this as a learning opportunity for all of us.  (See this to better understand why the title in quotes)

Below I have provided their responses to my inquiry, to which I will include my own commentary so we can unpack and learn how problematic “Jewish Voice Ministries” and “Messianic Judaism” is and how these kinds of Evangelical Groups effect our safety as Jews:

Shalom Rabbi Josh,

Thank you so much for writing and reaching out to us; it’s a blessing to hear from you. [Jews rarely use “it’s a blessing” in our correspondence.  Unless using Hebrew, culturally I’ve never seen it, especially from Jewish clergy. Similarly, very few Jews in my experience begin emails with “shalom.”  It feels like they’re trying to prove something.]

I appreciate your question and comments and will be happy to reply to them.

We identify as Jews because many on our staff, including myself and Rabbi Jonathan Bernis, are Jews. [This is inappropriate.  Just because a few staff members are Jewish, does not mean that you are a Jewish organization. ESPECIALLY if said staff members have chosen to live life as a Christian -- and thus become a Jewish Apostate.  As an example, should the US Senate identify as Jews because Bernie Sanders, Chuck Schumer, and Jackie Rosen are three of eight Jewish members? No, the answer is no.]

The theology we preach, is Biblical Jewish theology, which was later adopted (and in many cases, unfortunately twisted), by Christianity. [“Biblical Jewish theology” can no longer be practiced. Biblical Jewish life centered around the Temple.  And we have no Temple.  The line of ordained Koheinim (ritual priests) has ended.  And even if we as Jews all collectively agreed and decided to actually build a Third Temple in Jerusalem, we can’t due to political, social, and ethical tensions with Palestinians, Jordanians, and our Muslim siblings - we cannot *just* build the Temple again. Read more here.]

Interestingly, to this day, many in Christianity do not realize that the foundation of their beliefs, is from Judaism. [This is an interesting way to say that "Messianic Judaism” was formed by Evangelical Christians in the 1970s, and use that theology with some Jewish language to pretend to be Jews!  More here.]  And while there has been much in Christian theological teaching that fits the pattern of antisemitic tropes, such is a reflection on the errors of such churches, and not on the very sound Jewish theology we teach and espouse. [This also is frankly not true. Their entire goal is to convert Jews and eradicate Judaism.  There is a long history of Christians attempting to do this-- with the most famous being during the Inquisition where Jews were forced to “convert or die.”  This is the definition of antisemitic theology.  And they are not the only group preaching this harmful theology.  Read more here.]

We appreciate that you would love to come to our church, and we would be honored to host you, were it not for the fact that we do not have a church. [Well if this isn’t a Church, whatever they preach about is certainly not recognized as Judaism by any major Jewish organization. See here for rabbinic responses to the movement. ] Indeed, Rabbi Jonathan and myself do what we've been doing since childhood, and attend Shul on Shabbat. [It was an interesting and non-inclusive choice to use Ashkenormative language here. And that said, while it is true that they might have attended a synagogue as a child, what they are doing now is certainly not Judaism.  For more information about differences between Jews and Christians, see this article on Bible interpretation.]

And while some of our employees are Gentile and do attend churches, such churches are those which understand and uphold the importance of blessing Israel, which includes standing with Israel against anti-Semitism [This is code for “Anti-Israel” sentiment, which is often code for equalizing any critique against far-right leaders in the Knesset to antisemitism.  One could always critique Israel without being antisemitic.  And conflating all critique of Israel as antisemitism is extremely dangerous.  Also, the term “anti-semitism” is not correct with the dash.  Read more here.] and helping raise awareness that (when it comes to ongoing conflicts with Hamas), Israel is not committing genocide, is not an apartheid nation, is not occupying supposed "Palestinian" territory, and any Christian who is truly following what their religion teaches, would and should be appalled by the efforts of the BDS Movement, and folks like Bernie Sanders, who - up until recently - was intent on stopping a $735 million arms sale to Israel, so that the nation could purchase more iron domes from us, to continue to protect the innocent citizens who simply, as you know, just want to live in peace. [I am fascinated by this chunk.  Firstly, I want to identify the clear and obvious antisemitism here in naming Bernie Sanders as an enemy of the State of Israel while using a financial figure to prove how “bad” he is for the State of Israel.  Secondly, it’s fascinating that this “rabbi” chose to lay out all that he preaches about Israel in such a broad way - most likely to make me “feel better” about his stances.  He knows how scared so many Jews are about their movement, and made MASSIVE assumptions about my politics, using poorly written talking points that really do not mean much, and frankly some that are wrong.  As an example, the US does not sell “iron domes” to Israel (not in the plural, or in the present tense).  The US helped to create the Iron Dome System (singular, past tense) which protects innocent civilians in Israel from rocket fire often from Hamas.  The system is singular, and the US helps to maintain said system.  I point out this small thing here because, it is a very clear example of how ignorant this individual is of the real challenges that Israelis and Palestinians, and Jews and Palestinians in the diaspora, face.]

I can tell you though, I do know of a number of churches that would benefit from what you desire to teach. Especially those which erroneously blame our people as the sole purveyors of Deicide. [This is a fascinating way to attempt to emotionally spin this conversation.  (Deicide is the false claim that the Jews killed Jesus, as poorly understood from the Book of Matthew).  Instead of recognizing his own harm in being a part of a system that for now nearly 1700 years has attempted to convert Jews in order to eradicate Judaism, he is focused on something that most Christians *already* agree on.  As an example, this was formally adapted in the Catholic Church in the mid-60s.] 

They would learn much from you, dear friend. [This is a rhetorical tactic designed to make us equal- so that they can continue to preach harmful things about Jews, Palestinians, and the State of Israel.]  And if you need me to suggest some to you, just email me back; I'd be happy to do so.      

Thank you again for writing; I wish you well in your continued spiritual journey as a fellow Rabbi. [See comment above.]

B”H  [Another interesting move.  In my experience, mainly Orthodox and few Conservative rabbis will use this “Baruch Hashem” (Blessed is God) in a meaningful way in correspondence.]

Jack

I really want this to be a learning experience for us all- including me.  I am really curious what you learned from this exchange.  How might you have spoken to this figure?  What did you learn about the movement from this small interaction?  (Also check out their website on incognito mode to learn more)

So what did I learn from this experience?  This organization cares about pushing a particular right-wing and particularly dangerous narrative about Israel rather than actually helping Jews, or frankly helping people on their missions.

From this experience, what do I feel is the most dangerous part of this organization?  In claiming to be the “Jewish Voice,” they are silencing *actual* Jewish voices in the process.  If you cared about Jews, you would learn the history of antisemitism (i.e. do your homework), not pretend to be Jews, not seek to perpetuate antisemitism by converting Jews, and you would always raise up Jewish voices (especially Jews of Color, Jews with disabilities, LGBTQ+ Jews, non-neurotypical Jewry, and Jews-by-Choice).

I hope that you enjoyed learning alongside me with this experience.  I would love to hear your compassionate thoughts below.

[author-morgan]

Your work is so good, you should do this for a living! Your Ivarr stories are treasurers! Because quality Ivarr content that matches up exactly with my fantasies are rare, and I'm shit poet...

Could you please do one where the clan's dainty sweetheart secretly has the hots for Ivarr but avoids him because she doesn't know how to act around him.

He's also into her but thinks she hates him.

She gets terribly drunk for first time ever, throws herself at Ivarr...

Confused but also turned on, he internally struggles because doesn't want to take advantage of her.

He puts her to bed/or gets someone else to do it? Ubba? Because he doesn't trust himself to be alone with her?

Finds her when she's sober and not hungover, confronts her because drunken words are sober thoughts. She's embarrassed but they end up having really great sex!!!

i do write for a living, just not creative writing oh the joys of academia. apologies for the long wait, but here's more Ivarr! hope you enjoy! ♥ i kind of went overboard (like 3.3k words overboard) but it's Ivarr and i'm thirsty as hell for this bastard. Ivarr the Boneless x fem!Reader

EIVOR SHAKES HIS head. His arms crossed with a frown playing on his lips. He doesn’t see what you do —why of all the people in Midgard, you only have eyes for Ivarr the Boneless. Even Ubba would be a better choice, he thinks. It’s in Eivor’s nature to worry over and protect the ones he loves after all he’s lost. You are another example of Styrbjorn’s charity to those he considered friends, just as he is Sigurd’s brother in all but blood, you are their sister and have been for many years —becoming a temper for the two rowdy boys, favoring the healing arts over swordplay and battle.

Since Eivor’s initial meeting with Ivarr in Repton, there’s been something about his methods and outlook that sets Eivor at unease, even more so now that he’s caught Ivarr’s gaze lingering on you —like now during the autumn feast. Some jest, saying opposites attract, and while that seldom seems to be the truth, it is for you and Ivarr. He is cold iron, warm blood, a harsh winter —and you’re soft silks, a cool breeze, fresh spring blooms.

He’s seen the looks you share with Ivarr. Fleeting and flirtatious, but that is nigh all you share besides few rushed words in passing. Ivarr cuts an intimidating presence, and you’ve never been quite sure how to converse with warriors beyond your brothers. It’s nigh as difficult for Ivarr —all he knows is bloodlust and his fellow drengrs— finding the right words to say is not a battle he thinks he can win. There’s fondness between you, almost everyone can see it, but there are times when Ivarr is left to wonder if you truly like him or if your soft smiles and kind words are only a product of his reputation.

Ivarr’s feelings are clear to himself, though, especially as he watches you among the people of Ravensthorpe, partaking in the autumn festivities. Seeing you wear a crown of gold and amber leaves, dancing with Ceolbert to the drunken tune of Bragi and his tagelharpa with a tankard of Tekla’s mead in hand makes his heart beat faster, and his mouth go dry. He keeps to the benches, reminding himself that a drengr does not dance —at least not this type of dance.

The evening fades, but the festivities don’t. Soma claims her clan throws the best feasts, though you’re tempted to challenge the jarlskona for the title since Ravensthorpe has grown. You look around, searching for your brothers, but Sigurd has retired for the evening, and Eivor is slumped over on one of the tables, asleep —his hand still curled around the handle of his mead cup. Sighing, you find Ivarr’s gaze in the hazy air of the longhouse, half-shocked by the intensity and darkness, half-eager to return the lust-laden stare with your own.

Emboldened by the mead, you gather another horn and move across the longhouse where Ivarr sits. With a smile, you offer him the horn of mead before taking the empty spot on the bench next to him. He eyes you, curious, as he turns up the horn —downing the mead in a few gulps— and turns his attention to you. Spurred on by the moment, you lean closer, twisting to drape your legs across his thighs, squirming more than needed. “What game are you playing at, little dove?” Ivarr asks, his gaze dark and tone dangerous. You only smile, flitting your eyes up to meet his as you tip up your cup.

The soft plucking lyre strings and the low thrum of the tagelharpa are nigh enough to lull you to sleep coupled with the stillness. When you start to sway, both from the trance of the music and the heaviness of your eyes, Ivarr brings you closer to his side before deciding it best to see you off for the night —lest he is on the receiving end of Sigurd or Eivor’s anger. Ivarr pushes the bench back from the table, slipping his arms around your shoulders and beneath your knees, rising with you cradled in his arms —head resting on the leather of his shoulder pauldron.

When Ivarr places you on the straw and rag stuffed mattress of your cottage at the eastern edge of the settlement, you are not eager to part with him —the bulge tenting his britches tell you he’s not eager to leave you either. “Don’t” —you hiccup, lips turning into a pout as you lift the hem of your skirt to show the bare skin of your calves and beyond— “don’t you want me?”

Gods, Ivarr wants you. Just the thought of lying with you sets his blood hot and racing —like a giddy boy before his first battle. He doesn’t think he’s ever wanted a woman more. But he can smell the mead on your breath and see the weariness hiding in your eyes. Ivarr knows it is the drink speaking for you, and he will not be the one to dishonor such a woman as you. “You’ve too much drink, little dove,” he chides in a rough chuckle, uncurling your fingers from their hold on his tunic. “Sleep,” Ivarr says, sitting back on his haunches —drinking in your appearance for a final time, “I doubt you’ll say the same thing come the morning.”

MORNING BREAKS AND so does your uneasy rest. The scent of smoke and mead clings to your skin and clothes, as does a dried sheen of sweat. Rising, you strip out of the soiled clothes and into a linen shift. With the hour still early and some only just retiring for bed from the feast, you gather up a cake of soap and boar-bristle brush, heading toward the small waterfall and pool at the northern edge of the settlement. Sparing a quick look around and now certain you’re alone, you strip, stepping into the clear, cool water with a sharp inhale.

Humming a soft song, you wring the suds from your hair and cross toward the bank where your clothes lay, but the snap of a branch underfoot stops you. Gaze darting around, you see him emerge from behind the trunk of a large tree near the stables. “Ivarr,” you greet, not shying away from his wandering gaze. His silence and the look in his eyes make you smile as you wade in his direction, stopping when the water brushes the underside of your breasts. “Are you watching me?” It’s a redundant question that needs no answer besides the hungry look in Ivarr the Boneless’s eyes.

“What you said last night–” he starts, voice surprisingly cautious, but you cut him off with a wave of a hand and scolding grin. “I was not that drunk, Ivarr.” Tekla’s mead had not dulled your senses, only gave you the courage to act on buried feelings. He lifts his brow and rakes his hand through his parted hair. “And yes. I meant it,” you tell him, wearing the same look now as you had last night nigh begging Ivarr to have his way with you. If Ivarr is surprised by the truth of your feelings, he hides it well. You motion to the pristine pool of water and bite down on your bottom lip before finding his gaze again. “Join me?”

Ties and buckles rustle as he hastily kicks away his boots, drops the fittings of his armor, and does away with his britches and tunic. Ivarr circles you like a wolf eyeing his wounded prey, and then he pounces, wrapping an arm around your middle, pulling your back flush against his chest. He leans forward, trailing his nose along your shoulder and neck —rough hands trailing up your sides and around to your breasts, squeezing them and teasing your nipples between his thumbs and forefingers.

When you gasp, he bites down on your shoulder and rocks his hips into your ass with a low chuckle. “You know who I am?” He means it as a warning —a warning of his bloodthirsty and unkind nature, that he is not a man to sing sweet songs or offer tender caresses. You already know that, having been privileged to witness Ivarr the Boneless in battle and know him outside of his craft.

“I do,” you answer, unwilling to shy away. He sucks in a sharp breath when you turn to face him, stepping closer and look up at him under lidded eyes with a wicked smile that sends blood rushing to his already half-hard cock. Careening toward Ivarr, you brush your lips across his jaw, settling one hand over the dark tattoo of Yggdrasil on his breast. “And if I wanted gentle,” you breathe at his ear, nipping at his neck, “I would fuck one of the Saxon monks.”

Ivarr laughs, grinning, but it falters when you reach below the water and squeeze his cock and balls, giving no doubt to your intentions or your wants. “Careful, little dove,” he hisses, tilting your chin up. He hunches, ashen hair half-falling before his face as he leans down and kisses you, warm, open-lipped, and intoxicating.

You pull back with a groan, and Ivarr chasing your lips, stopped only by your hands cupping his face —thumb tracing the deep scar on his cheek. “While giving the gods a show sounds delightful” —Ivarr’s lusty eyes take on a twinkle at the thought. Suddenly he’s picturing you splayed out on a Christian altar, spent from his love with his seed dripping from your cunt. His cock twitches, pressed tight against your belly— “Sigurd or Eivor finding us like this is less enticing.” Had it been anyone other than Ivarr, your brothers would have turned a blind eye, but neither have particularly liked the interest you and Ivarr show in one another.

Stepping back, you grip onto his wrist, staying his hands from their wandering assault, and pull him toward the waterfall and the small cave beyond. Before Ivarr has a chance to move again, you smile for him in the dim light, sliding an open hand to the nape of his neck, drawing him closer. With your lips pressed against his, Ivarr can only reciprocate —he parts your lips with his tongue, hands curling into your hips in a vice grip. But when the kiss breaks, you shimmy from his grasp and trail your lips to the dip in his neck —licking and laving.

“Having your lips on my skin is torture,” he inhales, hand fisting in your hair as you move down to the tattoo of Sleipnir at the center of his chest. You laugh softly and lean back, his eyes piercing through you. The smile on your lips is roguish, but you do not let up, making your way to his abdomen where a few small scars are clustered. Ivarr moans above you, and you haven’t even touched his aching, dripping cock yet. His hand reaches for your breasts, but you knock it away, having yearned for this moment for too long to let it slip away.

He titters at your enthusiasm and rolls his hips forward. Not dissuaded, you press your lips to the scar next to his navel, right below one of the dark runes tattooed on his abdomen. The hand still twined in your hair tightens, pushing you down to your knees. Ivarr’s legs are powerfully built, the muscles of his calves and thighs flex as you run your hand over them appreciatively, still finding small scars to trace and kisses, purposefully ignoring the hard cock pressed against his stomach. His hands clench as you kiss the skin of his thighs, your hair tickling the underside of his cock.

You smile at his surprised gasp when you drag the flat of your tongue along his cock, tracing along a vein running up the length of his shaft. Ivarr’s unable to hold back his groan when your fingers wrap around his girth, giving a few heavy strokes. And then, without warning, you wrap your lips around the head of his cock. He tastes of salt and iron and something forbidden and dangerous. Taking his cock as far as you can, you press your tongue against the underside, silently humming.

Above you, Ivarr chokes your name like a ragged prayer —it fills you with pride to know the son of Ragnar Lodbrok is coming apart at your hands and mouth, unable to say anything but your name. The lords of England may fear the whisper of his name, but right now, he is at your mercy.

Slowly, he begins to thrust himself into your mouth, but he makes no move to command your movements. Instead, his impatience wins over. He pulls you away from pleasuring him with your mouth. “Enough,” Ivarr says, his voice ragged as he crouches down, hand sliding from your hair and down to tweak one of your pebbled nipples, then lower still until he comes to the warmth between your thighs, slick with arousal. You whimper, gripping onto Ivarr’s shoulder when he pushes two fingers into your cunt, curling and thrusting. “On your knees, little dove,” he rasps. He warned you, and now he means to make good on his silent promise.

You struggle to gain your balance on the uneven ground of the small cave, but soon did, only to nigh lose it again when Ivarr slides the blunt head of his cock through your slick folds —thrice over before gripping onto your shoulder with one hand and guiding himself into your warmth with the other. Ivarr’s moan when he sinks inside you is breathless and airy, a misplaced sound from the likes of him. He grips you tight —one hand on your shoulder still, the other on your hip— holding your squirming body still as he eases his way into you. Your shoulders curl forward at the sudden wide spread of his cockhead into your body, fingers digging into the soft earth beneath you.

Ivarr pants against your shoulders —you can feel the open brush of his mouth along the sensitive skin of your spine and neck— as he draws his hips back and slams his cock back into you. You buck your hips back in time with his thrust, and Ivarr growls. You move with him as he fucks into you, squeezing with your inner muscles and whimpering in loud gasps. “Ivarr,” you chant, over-and-over.

He’s pounding hard immediately, giving in to the hunger that’s been consuming the both of you for far too long to be decent. His fingers are strong, streaking against your skin as his grip slides, something to discolor and bruise you by evening. But it feels so fucking good. You toss your head back, finding a glimpse of his face in this aching position with back arched, teeth shining in the low light, and eyes burning on you. He’s feral and ruined, and his fingers bend on your skin.

The building tension fades when he draws back, leaving you aching and empty. Ivarr spins you to face him as he reclines. “Ride me,” he commands, kissing you quickly, with an open mouth and teeth scraping your bottom lip. You pull away from the kiss, moving so you could sit atop him, straddling his hips, his back against a smoothed boulder. Breathless, Ivarr cannot be bothered with the loss of control —reckless abandon shines in your eyes, and he cannot help but grin as you slide down on his cock. He grunts enthralled at the feel of your warm cunt around him, walls clenching to feel every ridge and vein.

Moments pass, and you begin to move on top of Ivarr, rolling your hips into his. He groans, rough hands torn between holding onto your hips or pawing at your breasts. Instead, he decides to push himself up and let his lips attack your jaw and throat —biting and suckling— and annoyed at the slow in pace, Ivarr thrusts his hips up into yours, a sign to move faster. You don’t hesitate —lost to the exquisite bliss, clawing, desperate and eager. Holding Ivarr’s face in your hands, you try finding his lips with your own, but all you can do is moan and pant with him into his mouth, lost in the craven pleasure.

Ivarr bites hard in the crook of your shoulder and neck as he repeatedly drives his hips upward, chasing his and your releases. One of his hands slips between your bodies —his calloused thumb teasing your clit in a way that makes your hips stutter and body trembles, nails clawing into Ivarr’s shoulders. He grits his teeth, wondering if his little dove had broken skin. The burst of pain fades quickly as he watches your body bounce in time with his thrusts and listens to the moans and pants echoing off the cave walls and water.

He knows he’s close, his pants ragged and thrusts sloppy and desperate. The hitch in your breathing when he presses his thumb against your clit tells him you’re close to. It’s the boiling heat between you that takes hold, curling your toes and parting your lips in a silent throe, hands digging into Ivarr’s biceps as he chases his pleasure —teeth bared and bright eyes burning. Several thrusts later, his body tenses, and a dull warmth spreads between your connected bodies, and still, he is not done with the thrill of how you tremble and whine above him, but the rhythm soon slows, and you fall forward, resting your head on Ivarr’s chest.

You sit there, savoring the last twinges of carnal gratification, with your bodies rising and falling as you breathe in unison. And when the haze clears, you trace the small scars near his shoulders and follow the blue-black runes tattooed on his middle.

After what feels like an eternity, you feel him shift underneath you, sitting up on his hands. Ivarr glances over you —the small purple marks at the base of your neck from his lips and teeth, how your nipples are still hard, begging to have his mouth on them, and how your bodies are still connected. His cock is soft now, his seed seeping from your cunt and drying on your thighs —Ivarr thinks it a glorious sight. He hisses as he pulls himself out of your warmth, slowly, relishing in the gasps and whimpers you make at the resultant empty feeling it leaves between your thighs.

With flushed cheeks and swollen lips, you tell him you must go —this escapade would have already made you late for your daily duties, and the last thing you wish is for one of your brothers or Valka to find you in this state. He follows you from the cave behind the waterfall, back to the bank where his and your clothes are strewn. Gentler than you’d imagine, Ivarr kisses your cheek, then the corner of your mouth, before cupping your face with strong, rough fingers and moving your lips back to his. You let him move you, kissing you back, smiling against his mouth. “Come to me at nightfall,” you breathe against his lips, parting to gather up your clothes and shoes.

Ivarr grins, swatting your ass before pulling you against his chest, keeping you from reaching for your linen shift —his chin resting on your shoulder as his hand slides between your legs and two fingers sinking into your cunt, still slick with your essence and his seed. “That eager for my cock again, little dove?” He laughs.

He’s silenced when you grind back into his hips with a glint of mischief shining in your eyes. Ivarr lets you go, though reluctant, and watches you dress from the corner of his eye. It’s impulse driving you when you decide duties can wait. Smiling, you grip onto Ivarr’s wrist —he’s only half-dressed in his britches and boots, tunic in hand— and drag him away from the waterfall and toward your home in the settlement. Consequences be damned. It feels as though the gods made you and Ivarr for one another, and you aren’t willing to let another moment be wasted.

[taglist: @elizabethroestone @kitkitvm @elluvians @fullmoonwolfer1 @ghostieisalone @boodaga @southsideslutt @dynamite-with-a-lazerbeam @lizlovecraft @heathensith @alexisp787 @nobodyydobon @certifiedlittleshit ] if your name is italicized, tumblr wouldn’t let me tag you. if you want to be added to my taglist for Ivarr, just let me know in the replies or a DM!

[sheepskinnedgoat]

I'm gonna go on a little tangent and this is just kind of broad, meant to be read by many people, so I hope this is okay. Sorry for the reading you didn't ask for.

My experiences are rather anecdotal, so take with a grain of salt, but I have several translations of the bible and have yet to find Lilith's name in any of them, personally. Although I do know she is briefly/passively mentioned in Isaiah, but given her deep role in Jewish religious lore and belief compared to her shallow "role" in Christianity as a figure, I think its fair for the marginalized to expect a to step away. In fact, Isaiah does not even mention her in all translations, for example KJV or NIV.

Given the long standing history of Christian bastardizations, and the fact we don't really incorporate her in any orthodoxy, I think it's pretty fair for the group that actually has her deeply rooted in their lore and beliefs request outsiders - especially those known to oppress them - mind what they're up to when courting figures such as Lilith. It's one thing to view Lucifer or Satan differently when this figure is so instilled in our own roots, and we have two millennia of separated development for this figure. It's another when we abandoned this other figure almost completely, and it holds very negative conations in it's living history and belief.

I feel like this exact reaction comes up a lot in various things just because it hits some popular media, or it brushes up against other things we are more familiar with. Mostly, I think the misconception is that Lilith has any popularity in Christianity, but really... she doesn't. I'm not a deep academic, but I have a lot of fascination for weird theology. Lilith would be one of those things for me if she wasn't warped in virtually all literature outside of her proper context.

My added aside here is mostly that we all have a lot of heavy lifting to do in learning how to just accept things and move along or dig on our own. I definitely understand asking "why" and needing that knowledge. It's not bad, and I am definitely understanding and supportive of that. However, Jews always get this exact question (or in many cases, push back), and it all just boils down to one simple thing: Because it isn't ours, and a little respect toward that can go a long way. (I also relate to this on a personal level from my own beliefs and culture, so that's why I am saying this; because if I asked something to stop for the hundredth time, I'm not going to be inclined to repeat myself, even if that someone is a different individual from the last.)

My final note is that the habit of seeing something in OT and feeling entitled to it is a bad one. OT can be help in Christian teaching, but it isn't a true pivotal point for most any church or lay person's beliefs unless as a weapon. This is old Jewish law, and if the Jewish people want us to stop stripping things from OT, there's probably a good reason.

TL;DR: Lilith's entire history and lore is rooted in very specific ways to Judaism, and removing her from Jewish context to fit into different narratives - Xtian, Satanist, Luciferian, Witchcraft, etc - is doing a disservice (at best) to the history and cultural relevance of Lilith and the Jewish culture she derives from.

Sorry for that spew, I hope it wasn't too redundant and helps someone who maybe has a little more thinking to do about this than blackcrowing maybe had - and I hope this wasn't too annoying in your notifications, blackcrowing. Again, let me know if you don't ever get that more detailed "why not" information and I'll be happy to dig around for you. I like helping and sharing information, and I'm sure I have more breathing room and less exhaustion about it than those asking people to please stop.

Thanks for giving me your time.

I really wish I didn't have to say this, but being a satanist or occultist does not magically give you the right to steal things from Judaism.

Listen when Jewish people tell you not to use kabbalah, Hebrew, tetragrammaton, or Lilith in your practice. And don't "well, actually" them about it, either.

[kellyvela]

Chronicle of a Death Foretold

July 21, 2018

In the earlier published Targaryen family tree as found in The World of Ice & Fire, Princess Daenerys did not exist. In her place was Prince Aeryn Targaryen, Jaehaerys and Alysanne's sixthborn son who died young. Besides Aeryn having been exchanged for Daenerys, several other children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne were shifted in their order of birth.

Regarding these changes, Elio Garcia has stated the following:

... George had some new ideas for some of the names and the stories of the children who died young, and corrected some issues that came out of his original birth order (we actually got the names of all the kids quite late in the production of TWoIaF—literally a month before we had to finalize the book—so there was not much time to interrogate it). However, the stories of those who live to adulthood, as published in TWoIaF, do remain the same (just, of course, much more detailed).

[Source]

November 20, 2018

Jaehaerys loved all three children fiercely, but from the moment Aemon was born, the king began to speak of him as his heir, to Queen Alysanne’s displeasure. “Daenerys is older,” she would remind His Grace. “She is first in line; she should be queen.” The king would never disagree, except to say, “She shall be queen, when she and Aemon marry. They will rule together, just as we have.” But Benifer could see that the king’s words did not entirely please the queen, as he noted in his letters.

(...)

It was the hour of the owl when Queen Alysanne was awoken by her daughter shaking her gently by the arm. “Mother,” Princess Daenerys said, “I’m cold.”

There is no need to dwell on all that followed. Daenerys Targaryen was the darling of the realm, and all that could be done for any man was done for her. There were prayers and poultices, hot soups and scalding baths, blankets and furs and hot stones, nettle tea. The princess was six, and years past being weaned, but a wet nurse was summoned, for there were some who believed that mother’s milk could cure the Shivers. Maesters came and went, septons and septas prayed, the king commanded that a hundred new ratcatchers be hired at once, and offered a silver stag for every dead rat, grey or black. Daenerys wanted her kitten, and her kitten was brought to her, though as her shivering grew more violent it squirmed from her grasp and scratched her hand. Near dawn, Jaehaerys bolted to his feet shouting that a dragon was needed, that his daughter must have a dragon, and ravens took wing for Dragonstone, instructing the Dragonkeepers there to bring a hatchling to the Red Keep at once.

None of it mattered. A day and a half after she had woken her mother from sleep complaining of feeling cold, the little princess was dead. The queen collapsed in the king’s arms, shaking so violently that some feared she had the Shivers too.”

—Fire & Blood - Volume I

May 19, 2019

Standing before the Iron Throne, Dany steps forward and kisses the man she loves. A perfect kiss, an expression of pure love and passion.

We push in on them until we’re tight on their faces -- their eyes closed, his hand behind her head, her hand on his cheek.

Dany’s eyes open suddenly as she draws a sharp breath.

Jon’s eyes open as well, already filling with tears. For a moment, neither moves, as if moving will make this real.

In a wider angle, we see Jon with his hand still on the hilt of the dagger he just lodged in Dany’s heart.

Her strength leaves her and she collapses to the marble; he keeps her in his arms as she falls, kneeling down to the floor beside her.

He looks down at what he’s done. Terrible. And necessary. He hopes for one last moment with her.

But her eyes are already glazing over. Winter has come to the Throne Room. Dany lies dead in his arms, Pieta-style, as the snow drifts down.

—GAME OF THRONES "The Iron Throne" - Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss - Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin

January 19, 2020

WELT: Again: We know what will happen to the Mother of Dragons. How do you want to surpass that in a novel – with an alternative literary version?

GRRM: Counter question: How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? In Margaret Mitchell’s novel “Gone with the Wind” she had three children. But in the cinema version of the novels she only had one child. Which version is the only one valid - the one with one or the other with three children? The answer is: neither. Because Scarlett O'Hara never existed, she is a fictional character, not a real person, who would have had real children. Or take “The Little Mermaid”. We know her from the fairytale of the same name by Hans Christian Andersen and from the Disney movie. Which one is the true mermaid? Well, mermaids do not exist. So you can chose the version that you personally like the best. Changes are inevitable in this process. Even if the adaption is as faithful to the literary source material as it was the case with “Game of Thrones”.

—GEORGE R. R. MARTIN “Die Leute kennen ein Ende – nicht das Ende” - WELT 2020 - (Translation)

April 18, 2021

Q: It is my impression that there are parallels between Westeros history and current events in ASOIAF. so in your opinion to what degree is George martin's history cyclical? Because we have a lot of parallels. For example with the current history and the dance of the dragons.

Elio: You know George even uses that line from talking about the the arms of house Toland, the dragon eating its tail, but it was from the Archmaester Rigney which is a reference to Robert Jordan the writer of the wheel of time, that history is a wheel or time as a circle. I think George certainly deliberately sees, creates parallels. I mean this is a very obvious example, you know if you read The World of Ice and Fire, you saw the family tree of the Targaryens, and the family tree for Jaehaerys and his offspring changes quite a lot when fire and blood comes out. Because George realized that he wanted to create a kind of parallel by introducing another Daenerys. and he said like, i like the symmetry of it, I like the the sort of the way. You could perhaps read it as reflecting on Daenerys's story, maybe. I wish it was true. I mean I think fans of Daenerys need to be really worried about what's going to happen to her. Although I guess Game of Thrones maybe has revealed kind of where things may possibly end. Again the journey is going to be very different. I think you know circumstances, things are going to be very different. So there's a journey that matters. But in any case, so yes I think George uses cycles and things a bit. He likes setting up parallels of events, he likes paralleling characters, he likes paralleling events, and he likes paralleling the past and the present as well.

Linda: I think certainly that when he fleshed out the details of Fire and Blood, even when he first did the sidebars for The World of Ice and Fire, and they just grew. We could see that, okay here he's looking at foreshadowing or commenting on current events by doing a similar scenario in the past and he definitely likes to play around with those aspects.

[Source] (*)

(*) Thanks to @istumpysk and her friend for sending me this link!

[scrawnytreedemon]

Shit I’ve Been Winding Up For A Long Time Now But Am Very Aware Will Probably Hold No Relevance Should I Actually Go Into This More--

This is about Bhunivelze.

I.

You know, when I was chilling out, on my bed, that evening on that half term in early June, deciding to check up on ClementJ64′s FF retrospective because-- Hey! It’s been awhile, I wonder if he’s got around to doing the final bit of the FFXIII saga --You know, I was there, chilling, just for a laff. Just a laff.

The rest of that week was spent spiralling into a hyperfixation I absolutely did not anticipate in any way, shape, or form, because the way they introduced that character was “wwhdhfjjhHJDFJKHKJHW H A T??”

That retrospective and a good amount of wiki-scrounging is all I have as a basis for this. This is not a coherent character analysis-- Though I might tag it as that for ease of access. This is not, by any means, the thoughts of someone deeply familiar with FFXIII on the whole beyond plot synopses and overarching themes.

I don’t think I’m brave enough for that.

Reading the vast yet surface-deep lore on those wiki pages on my birthday while in a delirious state of mind was enough to make me somewhat nauseous.

Do you think I’m going to go through all of that in real time?

(Someday, someday.)

Ugh, I don’t know how to begin, but let us, I guess. I’d recommend you read this church-mime-demiurge’s FF Wiki page if you want the same level of base-knowledge I had, and maybe the aformentioned retrospective if you want the experience, because I don’t think I have the wherewithal to get into all of that from the bottom-up.

I am also, so, so fucking sorry for any remaining FFXIII fans in advance. There is like, a good chance I may be butchering the characterisation completely, so bear with me here.

With that... we begin?

Where do we even start with this guy?

How on earth to you begin to explain the absolute monolith you’ve constructed from crumbs of a Guy, some material no doubt spliced in from the Pale King, Sephiroth, y o u r  o w n  G o d  O C and other characters, and the mountains of religious trauma you carry around at all times that is probably the only reason you’ve been able to latch on as hard as you did?

I’m going to try.

What gets me, in summary, about Bhunivelze is how he’s a prime example of how love and concern can become deadly forces if in the wrong hands. His first acquainting with human emotion was by deceiving and possessing Hope, reverting his body to a teenage state, and planning to live among humanity through him. He sees human sorrow and suffering, and decides that, to End This(because it must be ended, you see) he’s going to destroy all the souls of the deceased that make up the Chaos that’s been eating this world for the past five-hundred years so they all forget and Are Happy. :).

Capital G God here hasn’t been present for the vast part of human history because he’s hidden himself away from Everything due to paranoia from killing his own mother and throwing her body into the Cosmic Basement, THEN creating the beings that would come to create humanity and OTHER beings because he didn’t have the keys to the cosmic basement. And also he believes death is a thing because she’d’ve somehow cursed all things to pass(including him) out of Spite.

Which explains why he’s so fucking averse to it and anything to do with it.

Bhunivelze, to put it lightly, is Shit at stepping into others’ shoes and Getting their experiences-- All the FalCie in FFXIII are, but him especially. It’s clear(again, in the f u c k i n g JP--) that he makes attempts to sympathise with them and does what he can to help, but it’s with such a loftiness and a complete inability to Understand why anyone would want grief, The Worst Fucking Experience In Existence, and even less why they’d be willing to Go Up Against Him And HisThe New Perfect World just for it-- And what would it matter, anyway, forgetting their loved ones. It’s not like you can grieve lost memories, right?

Right.

It reminds me of when at the end of the story of Job in the Bible, where, after putting this man through hell on earth, God rewards Job by giving him ten new children to make up for the ones that he lost. I. And that’s fucked! Nothing can replace the sheer uniqueness of each individual person you loved so dearly! But if you were a nigh-omnipotent deity high and mighty, with a cursory, almost mechanical knowledge on the functionings of the human psyche, that would seem adequete; enough.

Bhunivelze is doing that on a cosmic level.

I now want to get onto the romance: that being, his affections for Lightning. I don’t know how much I’m going to say, but it’ll probably be alot. It’s something that hits very close to home.

There is this... thing, within certain branches of Christianity, perhaps even in those of various Abrahamic faiths, where God’s love is posited to be the love-- The ultimate, most-fulfilling, all-encompassing love you could ever imagine --Because, well, he is love, so the story goes, and so often the best way to convey that is through the imagery of...

Marriage.

Giving up yourself so completely, to serve, to be the Bride; to be bound by him for all eternity; and for there to be no higher bliss than this.

This angle is pushed on young girls and women the most; from the mere parallels to the woman’s role in marriage, all the way down to downright-horrifying ultra-Evangelical purity pacts. With men, God is your dad, your best bud and confidant, your boss, your king, your this, your that, and the ‘marriage‘ as it were is relegated to a sort of half-thought; a metaphor.

For me, God was an attempt at all that, and my arranged groom.

(It was almost incestuous; was incestuous, that my own Divine Father would reach for my hand in marriage.)

Bhunivelze experiences Emotions™ for the first time through Hope, experiences Hope’s sheer overwhelming admiration for Lighting(whether there were any baby-crush feelings mixed in, I can’t say), and promptly falls into a nigh-romantic obsession with Lightning, deciding that she will be Etro(his all-but daughter)’s replacement, will be his Goddess of Death to-be-- He even calls her as such, before the final boss-battle--

...In the JP.

What happened in localisation, probably due to a number of factors, all the way back in early 2014, was that everything emotionally challenging about Bhunivelze was scraped off, like it was extra fat, and tossed aside, leaving us with the bland, clichéd shell of a foe-god we’ve seen time and time again. And I mean everything. I mean his very love for humanity; the fact his ploy was, in his eyes, to save them. Because if they’d left that all on, then it would raise the question of even if there was such a seemingly pure, all-knowing, loving being hell-bent on setting things “straight,“ would they truly be unquestionable? Would we have the right to fight for our humanity in the face of the Creator of the Universe?

To reject a love so personal?

That’s what gets me about FFXIII’s tackling of God, no matter how hackneyed and poorly-executed. It’s personal.

It’s from a feminine experience.

I know that terming is... vague, and problematic, but the way Christianity and much of the video game industry handle femininity itself is weird and problematic, so as it stands, I’ll have to simplify it. Apologies.

What sets FFXIII’s Let’s Kill God™ plot aside from most JRPG Let’s Kill God™ plots is that with our protagonist being a woman, and one who is very in touch with her femininity alongside her sheer strength; often, in these stories, God is reduced to Yet Another Foe, expected or unexpected, and you are tasked with taking him down unquestioningly for the Good of Mankind-- You will fight God, because you are right to, and you will go man-to-man-to-however-many-men you decide to bring along for the bloodbath.

And that just, doesn’t speak to me.

Even as an Extian.

Especially as an Extian. And an AFAB one with a deeply complicated experience with my gender, at that.

Leaving Christianity was painful. Questioning God was painful. Coming to terms with the fact that I had been mentally, emotionally, and spiritually traumatised under the guise of All-Encompassing Love was so, so fucking painful. I had been taught since I was five years old to devote myself to him, spent my life desperate to feel something, anything, to stay connected because I just, I never could Feel It on a deeper level, never could Give Up Myself, all I was, couldn’t Die A Spiritual Death And Be Reborn As His Eager Vessel, thus deeming myself to be worthless and a broken vessel for years and years on end... And for all that to have been... Nothing.

Lightning is hollowed out, the shards of her dead sister ripped from her in-stasis, leaving her emotionally numb for the majority of the game, Bhunivelze sweeps it under the rug, pretends he’ll perform a miracle and return Serah to life in exchange for her compliance, then sends her on her way to do his work, all the while knowing he’s going to pull said-rug from under her and elevate her such dizzying heights in the aftermath--

That he’ll deny her humanity.

Sand down all the rough edges that make her her, and polish her up afterwards, gild her as he is gilded, make her a Goddess.

And he’ll do it all because he loves her.

You can’t fight God like you can everything else. To fight It is the fight Existence Itself; FFXIII even conveys that by making Bhunivelze’s model part of the arena; it’s baked into the fabric of the game, no matter how minute.

While Lightning Returns is far from perfect in its execution of this concept, and that in itself makes me wince, not even taking into account the horribly botched excuse for a localisation Bhunivelze endured, it speaks to me more than anything else I’ve seen so far.

And it’s helped uncover some things within me. Helped me untangle them, just a little more.

So, yeah. I have alot of Thoughts on Bhunivelze, I want to share them, and I’m kinda really sad I have no one but my currently-absent friend Vee to share them with. I could get into alot more, like his very Fucked relationship with familial bonds, and how Lightning’s role as saviour so deeply parallels the overwhelming panic and never-ending guilt of Evangelical proselytisation, but I think I’ll leave those for another time.

In short, Bhunivelze is the epitome of Divine Love gone deeply wrong; on all fronts.

And if all of that isn’t enough to intrigue you, then, in Vee’s words, Lightning and Velze are literally canon endgame Sefikura lmaOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--

[blessedarethebinarybreakers]

Answer asap (I feel bad saying that, but I'm stuck). Do you have any resources for dating/not dating non-christians? A dear friend of mine told me they care for me, and I feel the same for them, but... all the resources online warn again and again not to date non-christians lest they endanger my faith. I feel like going forward with this would be ignorant at best and would set us both up for heartbreak. And I fear my fear itself would lead to me trying to convert them. But I still care for them.

Hey, anon! Thanks for reaching out -- the rhetoric among many Christians against interfaith relationships, particularly with the argument that they’re “unequally yoked,” is something I haven’t addressed in years, and have been meaning to discuss again. 

Little disclaimer at the start that this stuff is so contextual, and it’s personal -- I don’t know your life as well as you do, or this friend of yours like you do. Maybe what i say doesn’t fit you and your situation. 

_____________

To begin, I firmly believe that interfaith relationships can be and often are truly beautiful, holy partnerships. (This includes relationships in which one or multiple members identifies as an atheist / otherwise doesn’t ascribe to a particular religion.) 

When both (or all) members are respectful of one another’s beliefs, and find as much joy in learning as in teaching their partner(s), their unique perspectives can deeply enrich one another. You can bear good fruit together that glorifies God and nourishes others. 

This being said, you definitely want to at least begin working through your worries and fears before starting to date this person. If you enter the relationship overwhelmed with fear or guilt about dating them, it’ll bring a lot of resentment and angst. The rest of this post points out things you’ll want to reflect on and read up on before entering this or any interfaith relationship -- and offers resources that can help.

_________

Interfaith Partners: Always “Unequally Yoked”?

I’m sure you’ve seen a certain phrase on those websites you mentioned, drawn from 2 Corinthians 6:14 -- “unequally yoked.”  I’m going to end this post with some alternative ways of interpreting this verse, but what Christians who advise against interfaith relationships take it to mean is something like this:

Just as two animals yoked to the same plow should be of equal strength and on the same page so that one doesn’t do more of the work, or get tugged away from the work by the other one, two partners should also be of equal “spiritual” strength and on the same page when it comes to their faith...

And of course, these people will say, a person who is Christian is definitely spiritually stronger than any non-Christian -- and a non-Christian might just pull them away from The Way, getting them to skip church or prayers or even stop being Christian entirely.

But there are a lot of assumptions there that don’t hold true in every relationship, right? First off, who says every Christian is necessarily “spiritually stronger” than every non-Christian? To claim that is to assume that non-Christians don’t also have access to spirituality or to the Divine -- which I’m going to push against throughout this post. 

Furthermore, the assumption that a non-Christian partner will definitely harm your own Christian faith doesn’t have to be true, as I’ll get to in a second.

So yeah, keeping these assumptions about an interfaith relationship being inherently “unequally yoked” in mind, and with a plan on returning to this phrase at the end, let’s move on to specific things you should think about before entering an interfaith relationship. 

______________

Must a non-Christian partner “endanger” your faith -- or can they enrich it?

If being open to learning about how our fellow human beings perceive the world, humanity, and the divine “endangers one’s faith,” perhaps that kind of faith was not made to last. Perhaps it has to give way in order to birth a new, deeper faith -- a faith that is bold enough to wrestle with God as Jacob did; broad enough to survive questions and doubts and times of grief; and wise enough to perceive the Spirit blowing wherever She will (John 3:8), not only among Christians.

If your partner truly respects you and your faith even if it’s different from theirs, they’ll do what they can to help you be the best Christian you can be -- or at the very least, they will give you the space and time you need to go to church, pray, etc. And you will do the same, helping them to be the best Muslim, Buddhist, or simply person they can be.

I highly recommend asking this friend of yours before you start dating what their thoughts are on your being a Christian, and/or on Christianity in general.

Is it something that makes them happy for you? is it something that makes them deeply uncomfortable? or something that they don’t have strong feelings one way or the other on? .

How “involved” would they be open to being in your faith? Would they be interested in going to church with you, as long as they could trust you weren’t trying to force them into anything? Would they enjoy talking about your varying beliefs together and how they impact your lives? Or would they never ever want you to bring up Christianity (which I imagine for you would be a deal breaker)? .

Be open and honest with one another about what expectations you each have about things like boundaries around discussing faith, about time and space you each want for practicing your faith, etc. As you seem aware, it’s better to get all this clear before you start dating, to avoid problems later down the road! 

For an example of what such discussions might look like, I found this story from Robert Repta, a Christian man married to a Jewish man. Their union, he says, has included working out what it means not only to be gay persons of faith, but also persons of two different faiths:

“Ultimately, what happened was that in our struggles to find ourselves, we ended up growing closer together. We both supported and challenged each other. We began asking each other bigger life questions and talking about religion, God, science. Both of our lives were evolving, and what started to happen was that we started seeing the similarities in our core beliefs more than the differences. Some of those beliefs even evolved along the way.

We both believed in God. We both believed that God is love. We volunteered together. He would occasionally come with me to church, and I would occasionally go with him to the synagogue. Eventually, I could see that the common thread between us was unconditional love. The same unconditional love of God.”

_____________

On pressuring a non-Christian partner to convert -- assumptions about Christian superiority & fearing for their afterlife destination

It’s really good you recognize that it might end up being hard for you not to try to get this person to convert! Before dating them, you should keep reflecting on this and decide whether that’s something you can let go of or not. If it’s not, then you’re probably right in thinking this relationship won’t work out. 

It would be highly disrespectful to this person you care about to pressure them to become a Christian in order for you to feel okay about being with them. (And for more thoughts on how evangelism and conversion as carried out by many Christians isn’t what Jesus had in mind, see this post.) Doing so would imply a lot of things, including that you don’t think they’re a worthy or equal partner unless they make this big change, that whatever beliefs or ideologies they currently hold are inferior to yours, etc.

In order for your interfaith relationship to go well, you would need to come to understand non-Christians as being equally made in God’s image, equally worthy of dignity, equally capable of doing good in the world. You’d have to come to believe that there is much of value within their own religion / ideology that you as a Christian could learn from. 

Let’s bring in our lovely Christian/Jewish couple from before: as his relationship with David developed, Robert discovered that 

“God is not conformed to this world we live in; God does not belong solely to the Pentecostals or the Baptists, to the Jews or Gentiles, to Muslims or Zoroastrians. Two of the most profound self-identifiers God calls himself in the Bible is “love” and “I am.””

Here are a few resources that can help you explore the idea that other religions are as valid as Christianity and also have much wisdom to bring to the world:

I highly recommend you check out the book Holy Envy by Barbara Brown Taylor to help you explore how you can be a devout Christian and learn from and form mutual relationships with persons who are not Christian. You can check out passages from the book in my tag here. .

You might also like my two podcast episodes on interfaith relationships (in general, not romantic ones, but the same material applies) -- episode 30, “No One Owns God: Readying yourself for respectful interfaith encounters” and episode 31, “It's good to have wings, but you have to have roots too": Cultivating your faith while embracing religious pluralism.” You can find links to both episodes as well as their transcripts over on this webpage. .

There might also be some helpful stuff in my #interfaith tag or #other faiths tag if you wander around. .

Simply getting to know whatever religion this friend does belong to (or what ideologies and value systems they maintain if they’re atheist / non-religious) can also be super helpful. Ask them what resources they can think of that can help get to know their religion as they experience it. Attend worship service (virtually works!), seek out folks on social media who share their religion, etc. I bet you’ll find a lot that you have in common -- and hopefully you’ll find some of the differences thought-provoking and enriching to your own understandings of Divinity!

I’m guessing a lot of your worry stems from the assumption that non-Christians don’t go to heaven. If you believe that not being a Christian leads to hell after death, it’s very hard to view non-Christians and their beliefs as equal to your own!

That Holy Envy book discusses this genuine fear many Christians have on behalf of non-Christians, and how to let it go.  .

Here’s a post with links to other posts describing the belief that many faithful and serious Christians hold that non-Christians don’t all get whisked to hell. .

And a post on the harm done by fearmongering about hell. .

Finally, a little more on the academic side but if you’re interested in some history behind Christian views of hell that can help you see that there really is no one “true” belief here, check out the links in this post.

_______

Reinterpreting “unequally yoked”

I said we’d get back to this, and here we are! While the easiest to find interpretation of 2 Corinthians 6:14′s “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers” is that it argues against interfaith marriage, there are other ways to read this text.

I adore this article I found on the passage from a Christian minister who is married to a Hindu monk -- “Unequally Yoked”: How Christians Get Interfaith Marriage Wrong.” Incredibly, Rev. J. Dana Trent writes that when she and her now-husband dug into 2 Corinthians 6:14 to see what it was all about, she found that 

“An ancient scripture meant to deter us from getting involved with each other actually brought us together. Our core beliefs in God became the focus of our study and relationship, not the issues that divided us.”

She also explains that biblical scholars say this verse isn’t even specifically about interfaith marriage -- which becomes clear when you read the full chapter surrounding it! It’s more general -- about the hazards of “working with” an unbeliever.

And what exactly is an unbeliever? Paul and other “believers” of these very early days of Christianity had a different definition than we might today -- an “unbeliever” wasn’t synonymous with “non-Christian,” because Christianity hadn’t even solidified into an actual religion yet! Instead, a nonbeliever was "anyone exposed to but was not faithful to Christ’s teachings—someone not characterized by devotion, love, peace, mercy, and forgiveness.” 

In other words, if a person in those early days was told about the good news of Jesus that entailed things like liberation of the oppressed and love of neighbor, they didn’t have to “become a Christian” to accept that good news. And thus, Rev. Trent continues,

“Today, my husband’s deep Hindu faith has taught me to dig deeper into what Jesus would have me do. Perhaps Paul might have even considered me an “unbeliever,” as I claimed to be a baptized Christian, but my life did not inwardly and outwardly reflect the Gospel. Since marrying Fred, I re-attuned my life to Christian spiritual practices: spending more time in contemplative prayer, practicing non-violence through a vegetarian diet, limiting my consumption, and increasing my service to others.

Much to many Christians’ dismay, it took a person of another faith—a seemingly “unequally yoked” partner, to strengthen my Christian walk.”

Isn’t it beautiful to hear how this relationship between a Christian minister and Hindu monk has born good fruit for both of them? They help one another become the best Christian and best Hindu they can be, respectively. They are both so deeply committed to faith -- that doesn’t sound like an “unequal yoking” to me.

______

Whew, this got long! But it’s a big topic, and one I hope you’ll take the time to explore. Bring God into it; bring your friend into as much as they’re comfortable. And feel free to come back and ask me more questions as you go.

If anyone knows of other articles or other resources that explore the good fruit that can come from an interfaith partnership, please share! 

[veryvincible]

Hey! 👋🏼 I was looking at Tonys panel with Carol and his AA panels. It got me thinking how can a person like Tony .. who is an atheist, a believer of science and a confident engineer rely on AA which has a religious foundation (the 12 steps) and place so power on God. I know secular AA have different takes on it and encourage a personal definition of God as any higher power the person may choose. But doesn’t that defeat Tonys belief? Because I don’t think he believes in a higher power regardless if it’s a deity or not.

This is a wonderful question. There’s a lot of nuance to the answer, in my opinion, because I think there are some things called into question here that Tony (very realistically) treats with a lot of complexity.

Firstly, Tony’s atheism is kind of... I don’t want to say it’s up in the air, because at this point, I think it’s kind of made its place in canon and fanon both. But, most likely as a result of the times in which he was created, he has been shown in canon (at least in the early stages of his life) to follow some sort of organized religion. This is from Iron Man Vol. 1 #164, and it’s... not strong evidence for him being a spiritual man, as most people who call themselves “not that religious” tend to be religious by way of traditions, but. You know. It is what it is.

Of course, we could dismiss this as yet another thing that early canon imposed on a character who wouldn’t be like that at this point in time, but I think it brings up interesting beats in the way Tony’s character has progressed over the years.

Considering him as someone who may have been raised as traditionally religious makes sense in the context of defining events, as well, given that we watch him pray the Lord’s prayer in #14 of Iron Man Vol. 4, one of his Civil War tie-ins.

Given the proximity to the alcohol (and the point he’s at in the timeline, here), one could also easily assume that even if he had no religious background, the very presence of the Lord’s prayer in AA meetings could have formed a connection in his head between this “worship” and sobriety-- at the very least, enough of one that the prayer strengthens the effectiveness of his willpower. It seems the little push he needs to pour a drink down the drain is borderline Pavlovian.

There’s actually a lot of religious imagery in Tony comics in general. He’s a man with a suit facing conundrums of cosmic proportions. It’s difficult for him to keep rationale exclusively within the range of earthly probabilities.

Point is, his atheism doesn’t come from his disbelief in a higher power. It’s quite the contrary, actually. His atheism comes from a belief that there’s no single entity that could claim the title of God, that any being willing to try has, just by being, already forfeited the title.

Which is a fair assessment to make, given that he’s fought many people claiming to be Gods, and they’ve all bled. He’s also watched people worship Gods that turned out to not... really be Gods, whether they were otherworldly beings, his buddy Thor, or, uh, himself. The idea of him, at least. In space.

Because of course that happened.

But Tony actually does have a higher power to give himself up to in these meetings. In Civil War II #1, he very explicitly states it:

“I respect the future. I believe in the future. I worship at its feet.”

“The Future” to him is something he can affect, certainly, but he’s aware of just how massive it is, just how massive all of time is compared to the few decades he’ll spend on earth. This is his higher power, his cosmic deity of choice.

It can’t bleed. It can’t falter. It’s inevitable.

And this mindset is... pretty in line with everything else he’s done. He’s referred to himself as a “necessary monster.” He’s implied many times over that he thinks he’s rotten and potentially dangerous, but he’s also intelligent and capable and he wants to do the right thing, even if he doesn’t always know what that is. 

If you’ve ever been in a religious environment, you’ll probably recognize his mindset going into any problem: there’s always a solution, always information he’s missing, always a “right choice” he’s looking for with a domino effect that’ll be as favorable as possible for future generations. He trusts in the future the way people trust in God, with an awareness that he’ll never have all the pieces to make sense of everything, but he can have enough information to act. And he must act, or else his worth, his right to be alive, even, is at stake.

So, needless to say, he’s not praying to a mainstream God. But religious imagery isn’t and has never been off-putting to him, and though he certainly could seek out unreligious (is that a word?) alternatives to AA, I find it hard to believe that he would, given just how influential his higher power of choice is as it guides him through life. He puts everything at stake for it, going so far as to make choices that will destroy not only himself, but also his relationships with his loved ones if it means he’s doing what he perceives to be the right thing.

Secondly, even if he were a man who had no belief in any form of higher power, not even a stand-in for it, AA still might not be something he’d discard in favor of an alternative.

Religion serves as a guide. Most often, it has “do”s and “do not”s, certain beliefs it supports, and a kind of... basic explanation of what human life is and how it should be treated. One of the more common threads among most religions that I’m aware of (I am not an expert in religious studies; please don’t @ me) is the idea that human life is generally sacred, and as such, people should treat each other with respect. Yes, some texts can contradict this, but the general rule is “be nice to each other!” when you really look at the basics of what people are trying to teach. At its core, religion is linked to what we as humans already tend to for the sake of survival: compassion.

As such, though we might not always identify with religion as a concept, it’s not difficult to identify with some religious morals and teachings. Some people take to certain teachings better than others-- it’s super case-by-case-- but if you’re stuck in a religious environment listening to some preaching or anything, there’s probably going to be something you can relate to, and some way you can morph and adopt the message. This isn’t, like, all-encompassing, by the way. Of course there are some things that atheists and religious folk will never be able to relate to within each other, but.

You get what I mean.

I’m an atheist myself. I spent a chunk of my schooling at a religious institution. At best, there were messages that affected me deeply (as they were hard-hitting even when I stripped them of the God-worshipping aspects). At worst, I had to grit my teeth through some assignments, though I felt mostly indifferent (if slightly resentful at times, more out of frustration with the closed-mindedness of the administration than with the concept of religion itself). My experience isn’t universal, of course-- some people in my shoes were more frustrated and angry than I was, and I can see why. But my point is, being an atheist in and of itself (even one as strict as Tony) doesn’t render religious imagery useless.

For example, if you happen to pass by a pastor preaching about struggles with guilt, you might not identify with the sentiment of “Give your worries to God and know He’ll take care of you.” However, you could identify with the sentiment of, “Those little things, those side effects of decisions you’ve made? They’re here. Those decisions have been made. You’re allowed to swallow past the reality of what it is that’s passed and move on. You’re allowed to let go of it, so long as you’re better today than you were yesterday.”

It’s especially easy to do this if you’re listening to or being exposed to content from a religion you’re already familiar with; in Tony’s case, if we assume he was a Christian at one point or was raised with Christian ideals (not unbelievable in the slightest, given his circumstances and upbringing), then he wouldn’t have to do a lot of heavy lifting in order to get to “core messages” of certain Christian teachings that he could still identify with. Couple that with the higher power mentioned before, and... it’s not hard to see what might be appealing to him about AA, and it’s not hard to see why it was so effective at sticking in his mind all the way through his darkest periods in life.

Now comes the less healthy part.

There’s also an aspect of self-flagellation to it that I feel Tony might identify with on a deeper level. We’ve seen him hate himself openly, and we know how he regards himself. Even if he managed to find himself in a courthouse-like environment where the religious undertones were more about judgment than recovery, I don’t know that that would necessarily... push him away? He’s already told himself there’s something rotting and evil at his core many times over. He’s already committed himself to a lifestyle of atonement and progress, punishing himself when he fails to accomplish things no human reasonably could and barely praising himself when he doesn’t fail. Do I think these kinds of meetings would be totally sustainable for him, given that he clearly needs to feel pride or relief on some level for conquering his demons? No, not really, but. I don’t think he’d abandon them straight away.

Besides, every healing environment he’s been shown in has been more on the welcoming, open side, even if we only get to see a bare bones interpretation of AA (with deeper exploration happening more with Tony’s response to it, or his and Carol’s responses to each other) in canon. He’s in a good place with it, and it’s very nice to see.

Tl;dr: Again, great question. At the end of the day, I think the combination of self-loathing, his desire for progress, and his conceptualization of “the future” as his higher power makes AA a good fit for him despite his lack of a belief in "God” as an entity.

[gundhams-pandemonium]

The Dating Game

@fandom-goddd and @bakablyat

[Chapter One of my Shinsai Salmon Mode fic, Dm me for the Ao3 link. Nothing Explicit BUT some implied V3 spoilers]

"... A dating game?" He echoed the bear's words as he lay on his dorm room's bed. It was already strange to wake up in a locker, introduce himself to fifteen other people, and have a mechanical bear talk about how the 'original program changed' and this was 'a different mode'.

[Something about a killing game... Shuichi would rather not think about that too hard]

It was quite frankly... a mess. He should probably get to talking to people if he expected to find love. At the same time, how was someone supposed to find love in ten days?

[However there was an undeniable feeling and even partial truth that he knew these people. Like when Momota (who instituted on being called Kaito), someone he supposedly never met, called him 'sidekick' and it just felt right. Or how Akumatsu, the girl he woke up in the same classroom as, commented she was proud he took off his hat... it was odd to be with familiar strangers]

A knock at his door brought him to his senses. He opened, cautiously peering out until he saw the enthusiastic Piano Player.

"Hey! Shuichi!" She gave him a motivated greeting, her smile wide.

"Oh, hello Akumatsu," He returned her smile, though his not nearly as big.

"You know you can call me Kaede, but nevermind that. So, come on tell me, who do you have your eyes set on," She gave a teasing poke to his shoulder. He only stepped back, face flushed red.

"E-eyes on?" She hadn't already begun this 'dating game', did she?

"Mhmm," All of sudden her eyes went wide "You have started talking to the others, right?"

"Umm, No But- Hey!" He was grabbed and now being dragged out of his room.

"Nope, come on! Let's find you someone nice to hang out with," Soon he was released and following behind her.

He really was being dragged into this, huh?

*

"Hmmm, I see Kaito is with Maki. Kiibo is over there talking with Rantaro while Kokichi is spying on them. Himiko is being fought over by Angie and Tenko. Well, at least they look like they're having fun," Kaede talked about his 'potential suitors' (her words not his), her arms crossed as she carefully considered everyone. The detective only looked over at whomever she was talking about and began to feel tension in his chest. "Ooo maybe- wait no Tsumugi is taking a rest in her room last I knew. We were running in the gym, to try something new for the both of us, and I think I wore her out".

"Um, I don't want to be seen as being too pushy but maybe we can hang out?" At least comparatively she seemed very approachable, and he already felt semi-comfortable talking with her.

"I would love to! But... well actually, I'm about to go spend some time with Kirumi. However, Miu wanted something to eat first and I wanted to see how you were doing so it worked out. But, I don't think we'd have enough time to 'hang out' 'hang out', make sense?"

"Yeah, that does..." A little disappointing, but he wasn't going to be upset at her. Really, he should be thankful she's making an effort for him otherwise he'd probably still be contemplating in his room.

"Hey! Anyone not busy!" She called out and Shuichi really wished he had his hat to hide under. "Well that didn't work- wait! Shinguji, are you with anyone right now?" Her energy knew no bounds as she spun on her heels and headed toward her attended 'target' dragging the other teen behind her.

She was speaking to the long haired teen who'd been sitting quietly on the bench; from what the detective could recall his full name was Korekiyo Shinguji, and his title was the Ultimate Anthropologist. He was a bit strange, but he had no obvious qualms with him.

Korekiyo's eyes looked up from the book he held in his hands and glided from Kaede to lock with Shuichi's. His golden eyes piercing, and though he couldn't see due to the black zippered mask on his face he could imagine a smirk to go along with it. As if the detective was something to study-

He blinked his thought away, not sure exactly where they came from. Afterall, he'd hardly had a conversation with him. How could he guess if he was smiling much less what his thoughts were.

[At the same time, the idea in his head remained. And though it wasn't up and fore front it hadn't fully left him]

"With anyone? " He repeated, turning back to her.

[How.. How long were they looking at each other? Was it not really long at all? Was it in his head?]

"Yeah, for the game we're currently in," She replied, hands on her hips.

"Kehehe, no. I'd been reading, and when I wasn't I was just watching all around. This place is truly beautiful isn't it?"

The pianist in reply bit her lip, and Shuichi couldn't help feel the response was slightly... strange. Well, all people were different. Just because someone talks differently then how you expected didn't mean they were bad or anything.

"It is a nice day out, and you know who you can enjoy the day with! Shuichi," She splayed her arms out like the woman showing a prize on a quiz show. And before Shuichi could tell her anything else she raced off.

Well, she gave him no other choice. At least, despite his odd demeanor, he didn't seem cruel or crude [There were many crude people he decided against... dating]. Actually, sitting and reading a book was quite a common thing that he liked to do himself.

[He could hear Kiyo reading aloud. A text he couldn't focus on due to getting lost in his voice. Another odd, sudden, thought that he pushed back with anything else of this nature that appeared in his mind]

" I believe your friend just 'set you up' with me" The anthropologist brought a hand up to his chin, resting his palm against it.

"D-dont phrase it like that! Makes it sound so sinister..."

"Oh, really? Kehehehe..." His laugh trailed off.

Great, they were sitting awkwardly in silence. Not something you'd do just trying to meet someone, and especially not someone you were attempting to speed date.

"So, what book are you reading?" Certainly this was a good starting point.

"The Necronomicon," Or not.

"The... what?"

"Kehehe," He laughed. Oh, he was joking? With how serious he sounded he didn't even realise.

Then he turned the book around, for the title to be showcased. It read "The Necronomicon". His mind blanked, was he supposed to laugh too? Was he to question this book? Would he be offended by his shock?

"Not that I believe this book to be factual..." Oh thank- " While spirits are real, you can not just bring the dead to life. Though, it Is amusing in a way to read."

Shuichi felt like he was getting hit by a pillow only to turn around and to get a swift kick to the gut. It wasn't necessarily painful to talk to him, but he couldn't keep up with these constant surprises that blindsided him.

"Where did you find it?" That can't be too outrageous, nor have him completely confused by the answer.

"My dorm room. Monokuma, which refers to itself as headmaster, told me it was a reward. Though for what he did not specify. Curious don't you think? I've never met before yet he implies he knows me well and that I'm deserving of this for something I've done in the past. If it is a present due to my talent... Well I don't see why since my Ultimate Lab is enough."

Once again they fell into silence, though this one was more thought provoking. An intermission, so to speak, to pull the clues together and to start bouncing theories off each other.

"Maybe, it's not that we've been here before but that they've tracked us? After all, I walked past Kaede's Ultimate Lab and it was completely customized to her. And they took us from various places..." Shuichi said, already feeling ridiculous. This probably wasn't what the guy was aiming for, to make actual theories. They were just here for a simple conversation and now he was making him ponder their odd (and slightly horrifying) situation.

"They did kidnap us all for a purpose, and made sure we are Ultimates... They did mention this was like a reality show? Perhaps us being Ultimates, and teenagers, is supposed to draw in the viewers. Make them believe this is something extraordinarily ordinary. Ridiculous really, romance is romance and human romance has beauty in all forms. Whether it be the start of one, the end, or even the middle it holds a plethora of emotions; romance is celebrated in all cultures in some way, whether it be marriage or otherwise. Did you know about the Celtic wedding tradition that later was adopted into Christian ones? You see, they used to throw rice at the newlyweds. It is still done today, albeit rarely due to it affecting birds. The rice was to symbolize growth, expansion really, of the family. So... beautiful. Food has always been so precious but love triumphs that."

The anthropologist rambled on, and he couldn't help but feel enraptured by each word. It was fascinating, and to hear someone he first thought wasn't talkative at all... well it lifted a weight off his shoulder that he would have to lead the conversation.

"You seem to know a lot about romance. Do you read romance novels?"

"Know a lot... ah, you have misunderstood. This is simply what I've gathered from careful observation and analysis. Not from novels, though, if from any books they'd be nonfiction. Those are my prefered choices after all," he looked at the book he'd brought with "And I'd hardly call this a usual book for me... do you like to read, Saihara?"

"Oh yeah, I read from a lot of different genres. Though, as cheesy as this sounds I prefer detective novels. If it's a good one I like to try and put the clues together before the protagonist can,"

"Very cliche as you put it. But what is expected of a detective, you must constantly be prepared,"

"I'd really hardly call myself a detective, I just enjoy puzzle solving. For example, I couldn't solve a murder case in real life or anything but a book I could... I only solved one missing persons case, it was originally my Uncle's and..." Shuichi could already feel a wave of shame and guilt come over him; he didn't deserve this "Ultimate" he was just a glorified puzzle-solver. He ruined someone's life and now he was living in a dream-like world where his only goal was to find love.

"There is nothing wrong with preferring puzzles, nor nothing wrong with only solving one case. You have a talent, and if that is evident in the academy then it doesn't matter what you've done and rather what you will do,".

Shuichi wasn't sure he wanted to do much of anything more with being a detective but... well he appreciated the kindness in the other's words.

"... Observation," Korekiyo stated, as if it made sense on its own.

"Huh?"

"You would make a good anthropologist, or at least it may interest you slightly. It is all about observing, and to solve something you must do some observation," Though his eyes were looking at him, they seemed not to see him. As if looking beyond him "Would you be opposed to being taught about the subject?"

He froze at the question. That was... quite a sudden leap? Although, looking at his fellow classmate, it was as if that is what had been on his mind the whole time. He didn't have anything against learning, knowledge was something he always enjoyed, yet he felt something stop him from immediately saying yes.

Why did his hands suddenly feel so sweaty, and why did his mind buzz with sudden anxiety? He would never deny that social situations were not his strong suit, but something like this hadn't happened before.

Swallowing his fear (and the dryness in his throat), he responded.

[This next choice will affect the rest of your route...]

[Accept ] <-----

[Reject] <------

[Accept] ✅

"Well, you are an expert on the subject! I think learning more on it could be interesting, especially if-"

"Excellent!" Korekiyo blurt out, and for the first time Shuichi saw his emotions shine. It was a sudden burst of energy, one he quickly composed himself to cover up "...this evening, after meal-time, meet me in the library. Preferably around seven and no later than nine. The books will, hopefully, be more informational than the one in my room. I will see you later, Saihara. Be prepared for your eyes to be opened upon seeing the beauty of humanity."

Without another word, or a response, the anthropologist left him.

He certainly got himself into a commitment...

*

It was lunch, and Kaede proposed they sit together.

"Do you wanna sit with Kirumi? Oh, unless your, uhh, date didn't go well?" Shuichi asked, the bouncy girl shook her head.

“We were fine! But she's serving everyone food, and I wanted to sit with you. Y'know," She gave a wink and a smile "I was wondering how you and Korekiyo hit it off."

"You make it sound so... official," His face reddened and she laughed "I think it went well? We're going to meet in the library at seven," He explained, trying to pull at a hat that wasn't there.

[He couldn't remember ever taking it off... but he also remembers it being in his room...]

"Oh? Really? That's so exciting! See, a date!"

"Well, we all are going on dates... that's the point of this all," He mumbled out.

"But he wants to talk to you more, that's promising! Unless..." her voice trailed off "Do you like him Shuichi? If not then obviously you don't have to-"

"I-its nothing like that!" He cut her off, immediately feeling regret doing so "It's... I'm not sure what to think of him? I've only known him for a few hours. He seems nice, but what if...what if he's just a friend type?"

"Well, I guess you'll have to find out!" She gave her companion a pat on the back. "Don't stress too much, this situation may be strange but it isn't the worst. Keep your head up high, and get to know some people. Even if you are nothing more than platonic, it will be worth meeting him, right?"

"... You're right! Thanks Kaede."

"No problem! Now let's get something to eat!"

*

"Perfect timing, Saihara," He stepped into the library, the smell of mold already hitting his nose. It was a dirty,dingy place, it couldn't even be argued that it was old in the "cute aesthetic way". His eyes scanned, seeing the piles upon piles of books that were stacked not only on the shelves but the floor.

Korekiyo was sitting in the corner, a small table and a pile of books beside him.

He wondered, silently, if the stuffiness of the area even bothered him slightly.

" How many books is that?" Shuichi sat down across from his, drumming his fingers on the table.

"Hm, just twelve. But they are merely for reference or in case you want to study a topic further. I prefer explaining things myself," His golden irises didn't even seem to dim in the dingy room, as if they were glowing "But where to start?"

He felt more in a college lecture, than on a date. If lectures were between two people, that is. Maybe more of a study group... well it certainly didn't feel romantic. Somehow, that eased his worries. This was to get to know each other, he didn't have to prepare himself for hand holding nor kisses right away.

" Well, I know that anthropology is the study of people, but how about you give me your definition?" This would certainly get him talking.

"Hm, that certainly is a good place to start. Anthropology studies the thoughts behind traditions and customs. It delves into the topic of folklore, and the way differnt tales from all over have similarities. Or even how the same story has differences. It is all based on how people interrupt as well as putting one's own feelings into the tales. It's not just with folklore, though certain anthropologists only study folklore, you would be able to do the same with customs. Anthropology is a truly human study through and through, so your definition isn't wrong just lacking in the specific details, " One would find it hard to read someone's expression when half thier face was covered, But where he lacked his hands flowed in joy. It wasn't overtly distracting, otherwise his point would be null and void, instead in tune with how he spoke. " Anthropology is everywhere, and is constantly changing, which is why my studies will never be fully done. It is why I must observe and research continuously- It may be hard to some but it is merely routine for me."

Hearing him talk about something so passionately piqued his interest. He'd never thought of anthropology as a topic of interest besides mild, but if Kiyo was leading the discussion he sure he wouldn't mind.

The conversation continued to flow; with Kiyo's long rambles and Shuichi asking questions which would either continue the topic in more detail or the conversation to move to a different part of the vast subject.

"Shuichi, have you ever traveled before?"

"Traveled? What do you mean?" That came out of virtually nowhere; though he was discussing field work in different countries, he hadn't suspected being asked himself.

"Taken trips, whether they be on your own or with others. Or, do you tend to stay in one place?" Shuichi was about to explain before a noise cut off his sentence.

"Ding, Dong, Bing, Bong," An almost chilling chime played on the speakers.

[All he could remember was blood splattered on the shelfs, and pooled on the library floor. The victim lay- Wait, what? He wasn't a homicide detective...]

"It is 10 pm, officially nighttime," Monokuma's announcement rang through, the Monkubs chiming in once and a while to add on with little remarks.

"Hm, I suppose we should leave and retire for the night... we shall resume tomorrow, at the same time? "

Tomorrow as well? Well, he could hardly refuse, and he was still curious about the topic.

"That sounds good; well I'll see you then, it was really interesting talking about anthropology with you," He gave a smile, and the other looked pleased.

They went their separate ways, and Shuichi was pleasantly surprised with the outcome of the "date". Whether he'd become friends... or... either way he could see his relationship growing positively.

[End of Day One]