#jopper is the ship to ever ship

[skoulsons]

ST5 PRODUCTION STARTED WHICH MEANS HOPEL AND JOPPER HOMECOMING IS SOONER RATHER THAN LATER

[cannibalismyuri]

coming out as a passive jopper hater bc the insane level of capitalist pandering they did with s3 (with ERICA who is like. one of the worst, stereotyped portrayals of a black girl ive ever seen, bless her heart) was truly crazy. combine that with the copaganda and the general attitude of hopper in s3 which was played off as 'awkward loser guy doesnt know what to do with Feelings more at 8' was a bit .... Eh :/ to me. because it is so obviously a fictional character and show but like. disliking hopper/jopper bc of the ideals st is perpetuating and the fact that they arent compatible at All in s3 (to me, atleast) is valid. some ppl might just think that jopper is unhealthy and/or 'overrated'. because they do sort of pay a disproportionate amount of attention to jopper, compared to the other canon romantic ships (afaik, bc of the screen time counter) and that can be Weird, esp with the... how should i say this? balancer/savior role hopper takes in the relationship (we constantly see him placating joyce, sometimes even being slightly patronizing, and also they place a lot of importance on him saving joyce from a lot of stuff, which is cool and sick if it wasnt for the fact that it directly correlates with him being a cop, yk). and the general power imbalance bc he's a Cop and abuses his position of power constantly, and that is exactly Why anything that joyce does is seen as a #insane girlboss category 5 woman moment because she simply has the short stick in the power race and when she does manage to make an impact DESPITE her economic/social/'general uselessness in say in Major decision-making when it comes to authorities' shortcomings it is seen as an amazing win. hopper on his own is extremely fleshed out as well, because we get to see his arc play out with his relationships with his daughter and ex-wife and el and re-learning how to be a parent and how to not let love allude him, and that is lovely! it's so great to see the adults in the show being focused on! but joyce is absolutely disregarded and underdeveloped as a character of her own right outside of her relationships with hopper or her kids. we see that she is determined and a force to be reckoned with and that she cares very deeply for the people she loves and would go to insane lengths for them but all that doesn't Mean anything, because we never see a backstory for her. we never figure out who she is without her family or hopper, or what her motives and aspirations and emotional shortcomings and stumbles and mistakes are. for a character to be fully fleshed out, they need to be an interesting, refreshing and palatable character On Their Own without their relationships with other characters, and we just don't see that with joyce. like u have Thee winona ryder on ur show, and u forsake developing her character in favor of developing hopper's character with /not the best taste/ and causing her to be a blank slate of a mother, lover, woman and friend, but not a PERSON. all she's been reduced to is a Mother and Hopper's Girlfriend, and honestly, that's the worst decision they could've made in relation to her and her relationship with hopper.

anyway, all this to say; these are my thoughts on the matter, but i'm definitely not hating on people who enjoy jopper passively and DEFINITELY not any by/ler (the most predominant fandom im part of in the parent fandom of st) who enjoys them as a ship with their own dynamic separate from canon. because the by/ler fandom is NOT a monolith and nobody is obligated to agree with me or change their opinion if it doesn't align with mine or be forced to look at my opinion and feel bad for shipping anything. im not going to act Holier Than Thou for expressing my opinion and u should definitely continue shipping jopper if it makes u happy! as long everybody recognizes the copaganda and capitalist mindset grind propaganda shit in st (which is Pretty Obvious) and respects that while shipping what they want, i have no problem with it. all that is to say; peace and fucking love. can we (the by/ler fandom) stop fighting abt jopper we all have our own opinions this is bc we are Not a hivemind or a monolith and not obligated to have the same opinions relating to all aspects of st just because we happen to ship one thing. i am a hater and a lover

[thefirstlioveyou]

"The Last Lie," as the final variation of "The First Lie," why it would be the perfect title

+ the importance of the the songs

(before anything: yes. i know. "it's literally just a song title." but obviously the song is important to the duffers if they wanted multiple versions to put in each season. this song is insight to what's not always being verbalized. the series of this song contains themes of queerness, romantic love, self-discovery, honesty and acceptance. all of it is meaningful and that includes the title pattern that's going on.)

ok so this is gonna be very much a rambling post.

but i was thinking of all the variations of "the first lie," and how the final one is most definitely gonna be for byler, or related to it in some way.

so far we've got... The First Lie (jancy) // The First I love You (mlvn s3 kiss, robin's coming out) // Being Different (Will's Monologue, 3:20-4:29)// Jopper scene S4

(yes. jopper has their own variation! you can tell by the lack of bass, extra added synths and different build up that it's a different version... i'm just not sure why it wasn't included in the soundtrack.)

i got bored and began thinking what the title would be if it were to be for byler.

i've noticed many people suggest to capitalize the 'L' in 'love' to prove that mike's love for will is something real, where as it wasn't for el.

i guess they could do that.

but... that requires them to say that phrase. and i really don't think mike and will are gonna say that to begin with, nor would i want that.

in the stranger things universe, "i love you" has only been a phrase used platonically or by failed relationships. the show really loves to depict love by actions or with other words. they enforce the theme "actions speak louder than words" with their relationships.

in real life, it's important to hear those words 'i love you.' however this is a fictional story that's crafted with precise choices to send an underlying message to the audience. so going by that this means that in this fictional world, el shouldn't need to hear mike say it. no other couple in the show had this issue other than stancy, and well.. you know how that ended up. bullshit.

mike and el had this issue because they don't love each other that way. the desire to hear it comes from none other than their codependency. they rely on each other to have some form of identity or purpose, slowly destructing who they really are in the process.

so while i understand why some may want mike to say 'i love you,' the point is he shouldn't have to say it. his actions should be enough to prove it, if we're following along the themes this narrative is trying to display.

his actions fall flat, and will continue to. although his actions ARE signs he CARES about her, their relationship has no chemistry and especially compatibility. there is no actual romantic love. just unhealthy attachment.

will feels better about himself, he feels loved as a whole, not just as mike's potential partner. mike makes him feel better for being different... but when has mike ever said anything specifically like that? he's never sat down and said, "hey, it's okay to be different." it's mike's actions that make him feel that way. mike's love for will is already being said without actually saying it, just like the other endgame ships. it's following the active theme.

and yeah it can get confusing.. because we're in the pov of will, who thinks it's unrequited... we lost mike's pov... mike's with el.. but the show is deliberately trying to make the audience (at least the heteronormative-blinded part) MISS it, so it can be a whole twist and all that and continue to enforce the theme they're going for.

and let's say the word 'love' is used, i think it'd be used in the context of a letter (ex: love, mike). i just really don't think they will make them say "i love you" if no other endgame couple has before. it disrupts the theme.

now, if not "The First I Love you," then what would be a good title?

personally, i like the idea of "The Last Lie."

why?

because mike needs to stop fucking lying to himself and denying his homosexual desire for his childhood best friend and stop pretending like that dragon poster isn't gay as fuck

no but, THINK ABOUT IT. (this is about to get severely cheesy and probably cringe inducing and i'm sorry)

imagine it. thee byler kiss scene, or whatever it ends up being (but it has to be related to them in some way). this is the moment in which mike finally confronts his truth and accepts it. he isn't bullshitting who he is anymore - being gay, his interests, his true personality.

the 'normal' boy who he tried so hard being... the 'normal' boy he risked his friendships and the love of his life just to be... the 'normal' boy that doesn't enjoy nerdy games... the 'normal' boy who he masked behind just to live a lie.

whether it's by words or a kiss, he's finally letting that lie of a boy go the moment he shares his love for will. and in those seconds of time, it's almost like a promise to himself that 'normal' boy would be the last lie he'll ever try to live again

i fucking love characters who break their own moral code. that's mike - the character that enforced telling the truth and being honest to those you care about, and still ended up being a liar all along.

and it's not even that mike's relearning "friends don't lie." no. he already gets that. we already get that. you're free to disagree here, but what i personally get from mike's overall character is that there will always be an inability to be truthful to others if you can't be truthful to yourself first. mike must live his live authentically and stay true to who he is and what defines him if he wants happiness. otherwise, the lie he digs himself into will only get bigger and bigger, and inevitably will destroy what's important to him (his relationships in this case) and himself.

all this... it already fits the themes the other song variations have been displayed in:

acceptance of a love and finally letting it in -> jancy/jopper

coming out and speaking your truth -> robin

queerness -> robin, mike, will

self-discovery -> mike

just imagine all of those themes just smashed into one title and scene. that track would carry so much meaningful weight.

Ok

maybe this post was just my secret love letter to those songs. but am i really crazy for caring about them? soundtracks in film/tv deserve more love! that little melody is clearly so important to the story, the way the titles it transitions through and what it tells us. i just think it's genuinely brilliant how they managed to do that with one instrumental. that's storytelling!!

ok i'm done now thank you kyle dixon & michael stein. ur my fave bylers

[andy4yippee]

OH ALSO!!! your ranking of your fav ST ships? :D

YESS!!! ok here we go.

STRANGER THINGS MASTERLIST SHIP RANKINGS.

(includes brotp, otp, polyotp, familyotp.)

OTPS

Lumax - 10/10. meant for eachother!

elmax - 7/10. SOO cute, just i cant see it really happening.

byler - 1000/10. MY ONE TRUE OTP!!

mileven - 7/10. Cute, but its not my favorite. i liked them more in s1!

Duzie - 100/10. CUTE! nerd x nerd has me in a chokehold.

Jopper - 100/10. meant for eachother, again!

Jancy - 100/10. ADORABLE!!

Jargyle - 10/10. Cute!! the fanart is adorable. cant see it fr happening.

Stancy - 7/10. they were cute in s4- but I cant see them tgthr!

Henfield - 2/10. not my thing!

Hellcheer - 9/10. WOULD OF BEEN SO CUTE.

Boyce - 100/10. would of been adorable. poor bob.

Byerson - 5/10. cute but not my thing, cant see them together.

Edna - 0/10. why the fuck is this a thing HELP??

Henclair - 6/10. so cute, but max and lucas belong together.

Steddie - 8/10. Would of been super cute!

Wheelclair - 4/10. cant see it, would be cute.

Wheelson - 4/10. same thing as wheelerclair!

Stonathan - 2/10. cant see it at all.

Bancy - 7/10. this would of been my femslash OTP if she didn't fucking die.

Joyren - 5/10. I didn't even think about this till now..but imagine how cute this would be? obviously, wouldn't happen but....hear me out!

Rockie - 9/10. CUTE!! love them sm.

Ronance - 8/10. love it! its super cute.

BROTPS

Eddustin - 10000/10. MY BABIES!!

Dancy - 10/10. they were so cute in s2!

Stustin - 100/10. Love them in s3 especially.

Robeddie - 10/10 Gay Bestfriends.

Stobin - 100/10. The bestfriends ever

Madwise - 9/10. I love them sm.

Muwheeler - 10/10. Mike definitely had a stupid teenage crush on Eddie. obviously, this is a brotp and onesided because if it was requited it would be illegal....yuck.

FAMILYOTP

Elwill - 1000000/10. THE SIBLINGS EVERRR

Max's Moms (Nancy and Robin and Max) - 10/10. Love them.

Wheeler Siblings - 7/10. NEED TO TALK MORE WTF??

Sinclair Siblings - 10/10. SO funny together.

Magrove - 7/10. make me cry everywhere.

Byer Siblings - 9/10. Love them so much!

HenderFam - 10/10. Steve and Eddie are Dustins canon dads.

ByerHopperFamily - 10/10. My familyotp for life.

POLYOTP

Elumax - 8/10. this is so cute.

Stoner Lovers - 10/10. if they interacted, this would be my true polyotp.

Steddissy - 100/10. I CAN SEE THIS. if 2 of them weren't in graves. (one isn't even in a grave LMAOO) (forgive me)

Robins sapphic dream - 10/10. What the fuck is happening?? but I LIKE IT!

Gotta Love Nancy - 10/10. Again, what the FUCK? but i like it!

THATS ALL FOR NOW! :-)

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

Wanting to see a mlvn wedding is so cringe, I'm sorry. I love jancy or lumax but I don't need or want to see a wedding. I wouldn't even want a flashforward of byler getting married 50 years later lmfao. This isn't the kind of show that needs wedding scenes.

Agreed completely! It comes from an aggressively heteronormative mindset influenced by fairytales and certain romance novels where the way for couples to prove their Happily-Ever-After is to get married and have kids right away. If Mike and El are as madly in love as they believe, then obviously the next step is to get married, right? The monologue was basically a marriage proposal 🙄

I love Taylor’s “Love Story,” but that’s what it’s giving. It’s clear that a lot of people’s ideas on romance basically come from that song. The thing is, that just wouldn’t fit the tone of the show? Even if Mike and El were the kind of ship they think it is, that would be so awkward?

And the same thing goes for Lumax and Jancy (and Duzie) like you said. If any couple were to have a wedding scene, it would be Jopper, but even so, I don’t see how that would really fit in the show. A wedding scene isn’t needed to confirm that a couple is endgame and happy with each other. That should be clear through the writing. And the show has never presented marriage as some kind of magic binding force. As others have pointed out, most of the marriages in ST have been disasters… which is exactly what Mike and El would be.

I understand some of this may be coming from the very Harry Potter impulse to see an epilogue where everyone’s grown up and paired off and their kids are attending Hogwarts, but like… I’m not sure that would fit the tone of the show either. I think it would make more sense to see the characters beginning their post-Hawkins life journeys and pursuing their dreams, whatever that might be, and we can leave the rest to our imagination (or the inevitable spin-off 30 years from now).

And those initial steps are very unlikely to include marriage as even the older teens will still be really young.

[miwiromantics]

✧⋄⋆⋅⋆⋄ welcome to my weird space ⋄⋆⋅⋆⋄✧

i forgot to add an intro post so here we are,

(my old account was @/ronance-and-reddie)

my name is vii or virna. im bi and genderfluid (actually at this point idk). pronouns: she/he/they

i'm a beginner artist but i don't really post my art here frequently. i do a lot of stranger things fanart but if there is any other fanart that anyone wants me to do, you can suggest them.

I am a very proud wheeler siblings apologist and Nancy wheeler and Will byers defender (until the day I rot). I kin Jonathan byers (I love this man to bits) and bi Mike truther. Biggest byler and jancy shipper ever.

~Ships~

MLM ships:

- byler (mike wheeler/will byers)

-reddie (richie tozier/eddie kaspbrak)

-boreo (boris pavlikovsky/theodore decker)

-stenbrough (stanley uris/bill denbrough)

-stanlon (stanley uris/mike hanlon)

-stonathan (steve harrington/jonathan byers)

-jargyle (jonathan byers/argyle)

-steddie (steve harrington/ eddie munson)

-narlie (nick nelson/charlie spring)

WLW ships:

-elmax (el hopper/max mayfield)

-ronance (robin buckley/nancy wheeler)

-rovickie (robin buckley/vickie)

-buckingham (robin buckley/chrissy cunningham)

-telenor (elenor shellstrop/tahani Al-jamil)

-wenclair (wednesday adams/enid sinclair)

-chaggie (charlie morningstar/vaggie)

MLW ships:

-jancy (jonathan byers/nancy wheeler)

-jopper (joyce byers/jim hopper)

-lumax (lucas sinclair/max mayfield)

-duzie (dustin henderson/suzie bingham)

-delila (deigo hargreeves/lila pitts)

-felores (five hargreeves/delores)

-loane (sloane hargreeves/luther hargreeves)

-chelenor (chidi anagonye/elenor shellstrop)

-m&m (millie/moxxie)

POLY ships:

-elumax (lucas sinclair/el hopper/max mayfield)

-stoncy (jonathan byers/nancy wheeler/steve harrington)

DNI:

- terfs - homophobes - ableists - zionists - antisemitic people - toxic m*levens - toxic st*ncy shippers

if you ship m*leven or st*ncy and want to interact or ask anything, that's fine but there's no need to be toxic by spreading hate or invalidating other ships. thank you.

🍉🍉🍉FREE PALESTINE 🍉🍉🍉 (if you don't agree, just leave)

[a-strangers-thoughtss]

Stranger things is great, bc all the characters are so compatible! Like just about any ship you throw at me I’ll be like, “mmm yes.”

Obviously there are the ones I go feral over:

Elumax (+dustin sometimes), lumax, Byler, jancy, jopper, sometimes henderclair

And the ones I enjoy

Elmax, Henderhop, byclair, bywheelclair, Stonathan, Steddie, ronance, jargyle, Joyce & Bob, just the party/teens being poly, etc.

Like ngl the only (popular) ships I really dislike are Mileven, Stancy, Billy & Steve (don’t remember what they’re called)

But also like I love them all as platonic besties? This is the only fandom I’ve ever been in that almost every single character has so much chemistry with so many others?

[wewebaggit]

i love how ur bio says safe space for hopper haters bc too many ppl in this fandom are always like “whaaaaat!? but how can u not like jopper 🥺” when he is not only a full grown man who abuses his power and was horrible to Joyce in s3 but also his character itself is literally copaganda

and it’s concerning and so weird (but also unsurprising) that jopper is like… elevated as this god tier ship, even in queer spaces, when in reality it’s pretty mid and also why would I want to ship Joyce byers with a cop

Hey booksandpaperss!

I am a safe space for ALL HATING. But specifically Jim Copper hate simply because he is shown a lot of undeserved grace by the fandom and the writers.

Since it's now in vogue to hate on s3 I'll take this opportunity to escape being called a negative nancy for once and just a hatering hater. Here goes:

My hate for Hopper is not as a result of season 3 but in fact it began with s2. (s1 a wee bit) But truly honestly deeply since season 2.

Hopper in season 2

After giving up Eleven's location in the prior season, Hopper then out of the goodness of his heart (😒) starts leaving Eggos for El in a reverse HansEl and GretEl. The feral El now has a home. But is it a home? Or just another prison? Hopper leaves her alone in the cabin with nothing but a TV. And so El spends her days mindlessly going through all the shit the idiot box has to offer. The only time she's actively interested in the TV is when she wants to use the static to get into the void. Because she has been kept away from the ONE friend she made out of the lab. And let's bffr. It's Mike. She is looking for Mike. And Mike too is the only one thinking about her. Hopper keeping her away from him and lying and being nothing but and angy aggressive cop of a dad is supposed to make the audience feel.....wait what are we supposed to feel? Mad at Hopper? Cuz the end result was people hating on El rebelling against Hopper. And it is all because El's resolution at the end of the Lost Sister episode was......that she needed to go back to Hopper and her friends. However, again it is a point in time when Hopper's at the lab and in mortal danger.

So since we love deep dives and shit and developing lore around characters, would she have been compelled to return to Hopper were he just, idk sitting in his cabin or at the station or whatever. A lot of ST is just about characters deciding to do stuff when someone is in REAL DANGER™️ But specifically with Hopper, he only steps up as dad when El's in danger. Otherwise he's treating her as a pet, something Mike was wrongfully accused of.

The whole entire (almost) year that El was with Hopper we do not see a change in her personality. Her rage has worsened. Her vocabulary is still lacking. In spite of the word of the days. There's no female presence in her life. He neither recruited Joyce nor her aunt (though that would have been sus, agreed n yet would it have been any different seeing as El managed to do it alone.) She's been held hostage for her own good.

Hopper: You put us in danger.

El: You promise. I go. I never leave. Nothing ever happens.

And then he grounds her. Like she was living it up otherwise. (S2E4)

We know it was because this was El's story of rebellion and trying to find her identity and so the story does not have Hopper do these things. But that still means that the story chose for Hopper to not do these things. He is even shown apologising (meh. half assed like his foil Mike, but that's for later) for it towards the end. And yet, that's something that's rarely discussed in fandom circles while talking about Hopper.

Hopper in Season 3

Oh he proves he's a blackhole alright. Sucked Joyce's character development. He's only marginally improved letting Mike see her but beyond that it's still mostly the same. She still is under-socialised. Speaks like that. El herself seeks out Max. Joyce is still too busy being ungrateful (I know not the intent, but the execution nonetheless) she's still not leaving the cabin much and has some curfew. Again which is, well why is it there? Cuz she's been coolly gallivanting with Max at the mall and everywhere else without a problem.

He's a proper asshole to Mike and a bully. Who tf threatens murder to a 13 year old kid? Like between having a chat and threatening homicide, he could come up with ZERO options. He needs emotional laxatives that aren't just anger and bullying.

Hopper in season 3 is an unfunny comic relief. A man baby. A bully who uses his cop privileges. Who treats the woman he supposedly likes like shit. He was so mad about Joyce not meeting up with him despite her telling him the reason. I mean mister you did that with Eleven too and just expected her to understand. The juvenile hUmOUr and the macho man action scenes where he's outwitting trained Russian mercenaries (lmao) is a step down from the basement he was already in. Him treating Alexei like shit when he was the only one who could have helped them. Make it make sense. (Anti-Russia/USSR pro USA copaganda and nothing else)

Also beyond all of this I simply hate Hopper for taking away valuable screentime from the kids that this show is supposedly about but hasn't really been that for some time now. He's a white male war veteran cop who's a Hawkins native and was a popular kid in school too. So he's not even an outsider in terms of being the new man in town, let alone the shit that really matters.

Hopper in Season 4

Not dead enough.

Jopper throughout the show

Mid chemistry. Joyce is already a semi-absent mother but becomes entirely absent after Hopper's message from Russia. She has ZERO clue of what her kids are going through in Cali and then has the fucking audacity to walk out on them without even letting them know that she might not return. She also leaves the only responsible person in that household with the charge as if she ever took it. She is now been relegated to being the comic relief which is neither comical and far from a relief and Hopper's girlfriend. Every season she has proven to be right on the money with her instincts and every season everyone including Hopper question her as if she's the dumb one. Hello. Do you guys clear up your memory after every season? It's annoying and one note. Hopper is a jealous manbaby all of s3 and a fucking liar. "i shOuldn't hAVe seNt yOu the LeTteR" Bitch u did. You wanted out. Dasvidaniya! El's college fund. But you'll only need it if you make it through school 🤷‍♀️. WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN HOMESCHOOL HELLO. Though I do commend the subversion of the found family trope where both the adults are pathetic parents. Do love one of the main couples being failparents! (is that a thing? or are they pioneers?)

[timetobeaghost]

Stranger Things 5 predictions

I think it's time, before the spoilers hit.

Things I am sure about:

Byler endgame!!!

Elmike drama/breakup/friendship arc very integral to the plot

Will has powers, duh.

Jopper endgame

Happy ending

which necessarily means Jonathan surviving!

and OG party surviving + El

VH1 dying, duh

Things I am pretty sure about:

Mike gets vecna'd

Will is like Henry, not like the lab kids, an OG power kid (his parents are Joyce and Lonnie)

Max survives, cause happy ending, dammit

Steve and Robin and Erica survive. Happy ending.

Lumax endgame!!

Rockie endgame

Things I predict, because I can:

Mike meets Max in the deeper mind lair or something, gets her out, has to stay/doesn't make it out with her

Vesna outs Mike in front of Max, cause another character being there makes it more interesting

Willel teamwork to go get Mike, no simple piggybacking possible because deeper mind lair - different ... time? (wth do I know?)

Flickegate - It doesn't have to be a kiss but timefuckery explaining the flickering with connection to Byler. I SEE THE VISION

Jancy not endgame, I think. Definitely no other Nancy ship tho!

I COULD see Nancy dying. I know I'm the only one, but I'm gonna predict it, It could be devastating without being show ruiningly devastating. It would fit thematically (when Steve for example would just be random cruelty so someone dies)I just have this feeling. Still, she might live and it's a happy ending sweep. If someone important dies, I say her.

Things I wish for:

Argyle

For my beloved Mike/Max plot, I'll add Lucas thinking they are in love now (because Mileven breakup and Max obsessing about that Mike saved her and they need to get him out) and then being so relieved he is gay. Come on, there is always time for romantic hijinks and it would be such a fun thing for Lucas character. He would be all sad and saintly about it, so good.

In the last ep there is a moment that makes the painting prophetic. Mike leading Will and Lucas and Dustin into battle against the big bad.

I do want a moment of darkness from El, a fitting development from that time in S2 when she attacked Max - I do not mean attacking Max again, but maybe attacking Mike or ... something dark and the she has to actively choose the light again.

Kali comes back, proving that she wasn't for nothing.

10 appears! And somehow he is Eddie? 😂

STEVE/KALI the only Steve ship that truly slaps for some reason

Hopefully it will be the best "This only worked out because of everyone's actions" finale ever. Or at least second best since ST1.

[seashoresprite]

Ship ask game: Mileven

cute / adorable

Mileven! My original Stranger Things ship.

I'm almost afraid to say this in our Byler-dominated fandom, but I like Mileven and I always have. I think there's a real tenderness to their relationship, and there always has been.

Side note, but it's a real testament to the strength of the writers that no two Stranger Things ships are alike. Mileven has a different dynamic than Lumax, which has a different dynamic than Jancy or Stancy, which has a different dynamic than Jopper.

Now I do think in the beginning Mike more viewed El as something of a lost puppy that needed to be taken care of, though you see small glimpses of him also being physically attracted to her. This was addressed in season 3, however, and I think by season 4 their relationship had matured. They had some rifts in season 4, for sure, but I think they could really be headed for wonderful things together. They've always been a good team, and they trust each other implicitly, even more now that the stakes are higher than ever. Mike is awkward, and not that great at relationships, but with El you can see he's trying to be good for her. And Mike has always had the utmost faith in Eleven and what she is capable of (though, again, it's had to evolve and mature over the years). It's hard to know what El specifically thinks about their relationship. But Mike is clearly a central person in her life, one who sees her as a superhero rather than a monster. And she loves him for it.

I want to be very clear: I am not opposed to Byler happening. I have always said that if the writers plan to go that direction, then I respect it. I am more concerned with whether or not the resolution feels earned. If the writers can earn it, then Byler may move forward full steam ahead. I would be a little sad to see Mileven fizzle out, however. I think they're very sweet.

[elhopper1sm]

TW: Domestic Violence, Relationship Abuse

One of the reasons Jopper is like my favorite Stranger Things ship is because Joyce is heavily implied to be a DV survivor and is explicitly a survivor of Relationship abuse. One of the main things abusers tell their victims is no one will ever love them again. So the fact that a 40+ divorced single mom whose working class in the 80s could find a man who loves and respects her and wants to make sure she feels safe and cared for and openly values her autonomy and opinions is actually so sweet and amazing. Dear DV and relationship abuse survivors you can and will find love again. Real love. Love that makes you feel alive and respected and free to be yourself and euphoric and overjoyed. No matter who you are. I promise.

[thefirstlioveyou]

isn’t it interesting that for a good majority of audience, all a straight relationship has to do to be considered peak fiction or writing is to make out and have an unhealthy dynamic that loser cishet men can self insert themselves in? for general audiences, these ships don’t need to prove themselves why they’re good - they just have to be a boy and a girl.

but then you got a fully fleshed out dynamic between two characters of the same sex, where their endgame fulfills their personal arcs and are meant to be; they just work, all while still reaching their full potential as characters. but instead of support and, y’know, basic media literacy, it’s always, “why is everything gay now? why can’t they just be friends?” well, because they only ever are! that’s why!

maybe it’s because i’m queer and will naturally be drawn to media i can resonate with, but it’s incredibly rare for me to believe there’s romance in a fictional het ship. it’s almost always souless, always the same formula. there’s no effort to make the audience fall in love along with them. don’t get me wrong, there are queer relationships that also feel poorly written and i cannot seem to be drawn to, but i’ve never experienced this the same amount of times i have with a het ship; not even close.

however, i never felt this way watching stranger things. lumax, jopper, jancy - they are absolutely believable romances. there’s conflict, there’s reason why they love each other. but most of all, the relationship takes its time to grow. the writers understand pacing is an important factor for writing romance.

this is why mileven always seemed so different from the rest, and why it was always destined to fail because of it. it was forced. literally in the narrative, it is pushed upon mike by his friends. el is kissed and because she sees mike in this pedastal from her trauma regarding male caregivers, she follows through and grows an unhealthy dynamic from the understanding of love she’s only ever been familar with. i genuinely believe she never would have seen him in a romantic light if he hadn’t kissed her. and finally, their character arcs just cannot be fulfilled if they continue to stay together - they just can’t. they just go back to square one with zero growth.

there is no actual appeal to the ship. it was cute the first season! but… that’s it? they kept getting pulled away from each other by the story itself, so they get like no time together. and the time they do, they’re busy breaking up. they have no common interests, they can’t give each other what they want/need, they unintentionally trigger each other’s traumas, still have yet to connect on a personal level.

but, i guess that’s what you call beautifully written television romance.. i guess that’s where we are.

[cloudycleric]

my full thoughts on byler from the stranger things day 2023 posts:

(transcript from https://youtu.be/jTl45Q0lfWw?si=_Abbiv7SMqALUJdU , please check it out if you have time :) )

so the first thing is, we saw in these videos that the stranger things account, and we've seen this in previous posts too, they're not afraid to post about ships; especially fan ships. because we got in an elmax specific reference. there was a lot of jopper there was even jancy, lumax, elmax, but notice how there was never any mileven or byler.

you might be like "oh well if there was no byler mentioned and there was no mileven mentioned, then maybe they're just trying to be normal about it." no. no. let me explain let me fucking explain right now.

there's a theory that mileven is already broken up in case you didn't already know. the scene of them in California ("from Mike from Mike"), that [that scene] was technically their breakup, or that they're not really sure if they are still in a relationship. like it's kind of rocky. especially since Mike said this was the "first real fight that they've ever had". definitely some questions on whether or not they're still together, that kind of stuff, since they don't seem to be too close when they get back to Hawkins.

people theorize that they are broken up, or they've already broke up, that they broke up off screen, on the car ride to Hawkins. there's a bunch of stuff about that.

I think byler not being mentioned and mileven not being mentioned works more in byler's favor than it does for mileven.

byler is obviously something that The Duffer Brothers have tried to subtly build up over time. this is quite literally Four Seasons in the making, or if you don't want to count season 1 this is three seasons in the making. hours and hours worth of runtime for this subtle little buildup. and we know that the duffers don't feel the need, or the writers don't feel the need, to come outright and say whatever they're trying to convey. Will came out to Jonathan but he never went, "I'm gay." we, as the viewer, are supposed to take these little pieces and piece it together in our minds. we're supposed to realize through all these little hints, "oh will is definitely gay and he has a crush on Mike."

now even outside of the show, in media campaigns, in advertisements, in marketing--the show is slowly trying to shift you away from paying attention to mileven and closer to paying attention to byler. there were more byler moments in these videos than there were mileven. they never said it outright but the facts are there.

I don't know if it was always their intention for Mike to end up with Will, but there is evidence in The Stranger Things Bible that from day one they wanted will to have sexual identity issues. if they're trying to subtly build up at something like byler I don't think that they would ever really try to bring [it] light to people who haven't already heard [of] it. the vast majority of stranger things fans, like casual stranger things fans that just watch the show when it comes out, they have they have no fucking clue what byler is, or they might know that will is gay but they're not sure about Mike.

and so I don't think Netflix, or stranger things writers, or marketing teamm would go out of their way to make [sure] that more casual audience try and pay attention more to byler than they do mileven. and then, on the flip side, they're trying to not feature mileven as much, so when they do build up to byler they're like, "look at these subtle hints that we were giving you the whole time."

there was foreshadowing from episode fucking one. they built up will to be gay and people were oblivious (but the real ones knew). and then when it came out everybody was like, "oh I see what they mean now. in the first episode and in the first season and how this was a gradual buildup to will coming out."

now what I'm trying to say is I think that they're trying to do that with byler, even if it's just through media campaigns.

...

they are trying to get you subtly to try to take your mind off of Mike and eleven, off of their relationship--and I'm not trying to say they're pointing you in the direction to look at byler, but the fact that they're trying to take the spotlight off of what most fans consider to be the "main relationship" of the show should definitely be something worth acknowledging.

...

I'm not going to sit here and be like, "if you still ship mileven you're delusional," or like "fuck you, I hate mileven," that kind of shit, because if you do like mileven, that's fine. I personally disagree with you. but don't come out here and say--oh my God I literally saw somebody in the Instagram comments being like, "fuck you for not putting in mileven." girl. these are the creators of the show. how. how are you going to be like "fuck you" to the creators of the show for purposefully not including parts of the show that they don't want you to pay attention to??

...

the way that the cast treats the You're My Superhero speech from Mike, and now the way that the people who fucking make the show treat that monologue--not confession, they never refer to it as a confession--as a monologue...

I don't know. why don't you guys just like sit and think about it.

[end transcript]

[justablogger234]

unpopular opinion

But I don't ship jopper AT ALL. I know alot of you guys ship it but I don't. I just don't see it, I never have. I never really cared if they got together. I guess for the fans, personally it's important but narratively speaking and personally speaking it doesn't really make a difference in the story.

However, even so, I don't ship jopper but I do ship Canon. Meaning I agree with whatever happens in Canon as long as it makes sense. I guess in a way they do make sense. For example, if byler ever got together (which they wouldn't) for me it would be outrageous not just as a shipper but narratively it just doesn't fit. And it doesn't make sense. So yes I would heavily protest. But generally speaking wherever Canon goes logically I will follow.

So to recap and I know I'll probably be ripped to shreds for this opinion. But I don't ship jopper, byler (hate it with a passion) or even ronance or even robin/Vickie (I personally don't really care about that ship at all and overall i only ship straight ships), I guess Eddie and chrissy was sort of ok I don't really have much of an opinion on that.

But yeah, told you it'd be an unpopular opinion. I surely expect to get maybe a rude comment or something, hopefully not, but people are awful sensitive these days.

[pyschologicalrocketgirl]

Thinking about how in every canon ship thus far, lumax, jancy, jopper, all have time apart, where they aren't in relationships, but have some kind of miscommunication or barrier that prevents them from being with one another, and yet once they're reunited they can't help but fall into their dynamic seamlessly. Max withdraws from Lucas after Billy's death, and Lucas doesn't reach out enough as he feels he should, resulting in the breakup, but as soon as they're together again, in the same place, they need to spend that time together, as much time as they can. Jancy, and how Steve and Nancy were together in between and during season 2, so Jonathan backed off, Nancy stated she waited for him, and Jonathan said she barely gave him enough time at all. Still the minute they were alone they were drawn to one another again. Hopper was thought to be dead, unable to contact Joyce until months, yet it was the first thing he did. How for so long Joyce thought she lost another person so dear to her, but the minute they were reunited and spent time together, it was like before they were separated, but better in a sense, for all of them, because they grew as people, even in these confounding circumstances, they still found themselves safe in the presence of one another, because they were on the same wavelength when it came to growth. Now thinking about Byler, and how they were separated by distance & Mike being with El, how they immediately had stilted conversations and arguments, because both believed the other didn't want to hear from the other person. But the minute they're alone together, able to admit their wrongs, they're close, and sharing inside jokes and glances, like they hadn't spent any time apart. Mike is openly admitting that Hawkins wasn't Hawkins without Will in it. That the only place he's ever called home, is no longer home because Will is not there. Thinking about how the duffer brothers make clear in all the canon ships that quality time is an important factor within the romances they write, and how there not only needs to be a level of communication when they aren't in a romantic relationship, but there is a complete enjoyment in one another's presence, not because they are romantically together, but because of who they are as people.

[castlebyersafterdark]

fans who don’t even ship the boys have been cracking jokes for years now that finn and or noah just wanna kiss each other under videos of them, and like I get that it’s a joke but the joke is spawning from somewhere you know? like all these people are independently coming to this “joke�� by seeing something that’s making them say that, be it just their chemistry or they sense a tension or whatever, so yea like I have zero worries that their kiss is gonna not deliver. I mean we have Noah finally out and comfy in his sexuality more than ever, and while Finn is a question mark in terms of how he identifies(I still suspect he ain’t straight) he too seems even more calm and centered in himself and happier than ever before so I know they are gonna go for it. If the Duffers had Finn and MBB awkwardly make out that much as like 13-15 year olds or however old they were at the time, then they are gonna give us a great kiss with byler now that they are grown ups and this is like THE couple at the climax of the series. My mind is thinking a mixture of Jopper and Jancy kisses but even more passionate/romantic/cinematic.

Cinematic!! It's gotta be cinematic, it's the Big One. Sometimes I hope I'm not being too dramatic or presumptuous when I call Byler Theeeeee Couple but really, they're the ones who have the final season to get together. Think about it: all the other big couples have already gotten together. Where else does romance have to go concerning this route in season 5? Others have obstacles or an arc to continue but there's no 'getting together' storyline left (other than Vickie/Robin, but they are kind of a minor storyline at this point. Love them, but they can't carry a season). And television series are all about the getting together story. That's the truth. So, yet another reason we should have faith in Byler because, that's just formulaic writing for this media format!

So, yeah. They're the climax of a lot of storytelling in this show, and some may feel some sort of way about them being the plot twist, but it's the payoff rather than that, really. The slow burn, that can no longer smolder and instead blazes. We've seen the chemistry, too! That's so funny that people joke about the chemistry and say it's the actors but only as a joke, come off your high horses and stop judging people who have a little fun talking about the actors, it's all fine. That's always been a part of fandom.

I'm also ready for Finn and Noah to have a bunch of kisses in season five so Noah can get a little cheeky in interviews and say, 'I'm not sure what Millie was talking about - Finn's a great kisser.' I see the vision so clearly and I also see my goddamn grave when this happens and it kills me instantly 🤣🤣🤣