#jonerys foreshadowing

[fromtheseventhhell]

When Dany and Arya are the first Targaryen/Stark duo to interact and people start seeing the light on Daenarya >>>>>>

[catofoldstones]

“What is this?” Skahaz demanded. “A bloody glove…”

“…means war,” said the queen.

And the next chapter is Jon. Yeah they’re not going to be lovers sorry.

[aemontargaryen-bloodraven]

I don't know if this makes sense and it just might be tinfoily. We all go on about how for any of Rhaegar's son to be recognised, it has to be Dany making that call...so I found it very intriguing that,

Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside. She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her… as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home. - AGOT Daenerys

Daenerys takes the green egg, and calls it the 'true dragon' and maybe the rider of Rhaegal is the true dragon, Jon.

...and the fact that she goes to sleep dreaming of home afterwards. Snowstorm foreshadowing? The way the scene is described indicates that she will be in love with the rider.

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

i see anti-jonerys

i block

[agentrouka-blog]

For your consideration:

Lord Rickard Karstark dipped his head stiffly. "For that much, I thank you. But for naught else." He had dressed for death in a long black wool surcoat emblazoned with the white sunburst of his House. "The blood of the First Men flows in my veins as much as yours, boy. You would do well to remember that. I was named for your grandfather. I raised my banners against King Aerys for your father, and against King Joffrey for you. At Oxcross and the Whispering Wood and in the Battle of the Camps, I rode beside you, and I stood with Lord Eddard on the Trident. We are kin, Stark and Karstark." "This kinship did not stop you from betraying me," Robb said. "And it will not save you now. Kneel, my lord." (ASOS, Catelyn III)

"So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."- Jon(ACOK VI). Ygritte was telling the story of Bael the Bard to Jon. Replace Ygritte with Dany and Bael with Rhaegar. Seems like foreshadowing for Jon and Dany future confrontation.

(continuation of this convo)

Holy shit, now you got me, anon! That's so unfortunate. I always like to hope that a second, suckier version of that mess isn't in store for Jon. I've wondered why Ygritte had that line, now I will happily refuse to think of the implications.

[atopvisenyashill]

why do you think jonsa is happening tho? jonerys is different bc they are going to be enemies, but i don’t see what jonsa does for the story

so let me first lay out roughly what i think is going to happen should jonsa become canon. I personally love going down meta and graphic spirals, so I'm including links to other people’s theories/explanations/graphics of events too - also I would like to shout out @istumpysk because half these metas and gifsets were stuff I found on their blog initially, and also was the one who really convinced me that jonsa is less of a crackship and more of a contender for an actual canon theory, and from there i really found my niche in this fandom. specifically this meta about jon being the mummer's dragon is what pulled me out of my "we're never getting twow and if we do it's just gonna be that stupid dany has jon's magical baby while tyrion watches, then they all die theory" slump and lit my brain on fire again. let's goooo:

The Ashford Tourney Theory - Something Shady goes down at the tourney Petyr has planned that requires Sansa to make a quick getaway, and likely causes her to run into Brienne while fleeing. This theory for me is about hinting at Sansa's romantic future, allies, and how she's getting the hell out of the Vale: both the dark haired, Not Targ Looking Targ Prince that is the son of A Great Prince That Never Was being her romantic endgame but also it's about Brienne (/Dunk) getting her the hell out of there and becoming Sansa's number one ally and protector (with Sansa's number two being Bronze Yohn!! But he's not fleeing with her - if he helps her get out of the Vale, it'll be to cause a distraction or a fight so Sansa can slip away unnoticed. Bronze Yohn is coming with the knights of the Vale later to help defend his girl!).

The Girl In Grey - Out of options on where to go, Sansa & Brienne makes a long, fast, and dangerous trek to the only family she knows is still alive: Jon Snow at the Wall. No, I don't think Alys Karstark is the girl in grey on a dying horse; I think she's a red herring, the same as the scene where Sweetrobin destroys the snow castle, and that the real girl in grey (who slays the savage giant) is Sansa. Melisandre says that she sees "Jon's sister" but doesn't specify more than that, or how she knows it's Jon's sister, even - why would she assume Alys is Jon's sister and not some random Northern girl? Why was she so sure that it was his sister? It's because Alys isn't the girl in grey, it's Sansa, her horse dying because she's traveled halfway across the continent with Brienne and Pod, desperately trying to keep ahead of the dozens of people hunting her down.

The Blood of Winterfell - Sansa and Jon will reclaim winterfell together. This one is similar to above; just like Alys was a red herring, the scene where Sansa rebuilds the castle has a lot of foreshadowing (imo) but that isn't the moment in the prophecy Arya hears. The Savage Giant is Littlefinger, the castle of snow is Winterfell, and Sansa is going to liberate her home alongside Jon and what's left of the Northern lords.

Stone and Snow Remains - THIS is where Sansa and Jon will fall in love while fighting for the North. This is also the part where you lose a lot of people, because they think the evidence is real weak sauce but like, I also think the Jonerys "evidence" is weak af too (and no wonder, we have at minimum 2k pages left to get through!!). There's several believed foreshadowing points to this one, bare with me for this weird ass formatting because I can't do sub bullet points on tumblr:

1. Sansa's linking of snow with love and affection - "drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks...She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams." along with her snow maiden and snow knight.

2. Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell - the chapter where Sansa gets her period for the first time, Cersei refers to it as “flowering” a dozen times, linking being a maiden (a young girl, not quite of age or just barely of age) to flowers and several people refer to sex as ~plucking. Also notice the one who stole her from KL is Lord BAELish.

3. Aemon the Dragonknight & Queen Naerys - Sansa compares herself to Naerys, Joffrey to Aegon, and wishes for an Aemon, among the many similarities between her life and Naerys'. Jon not only calls himself Aemon, he has a deep connection with a different Aemon Targaryen. And if you’re thinking “Sansa isn’t Naerys, X is Naerys” I would remind you that Sansa as a character existed first, George purposefully had her compare herself to Naerys, and parallels don't belong to just one character.

4. Jenny of Oldstones and The Prince of Dragonflies - there's honestly a lot of parallels between them but like the Aemon/Naerys parallel, the Jenny/Duncan one stands out to me.

5. Janos Slynt - I mean. Iconic. This was the scene that made me first think about what their relationship could be in the future and there’s a reason Jonsas fixate on it. It’s about Sansa being desperate for a hero and the hero she dreamed about being Jon the whole time. 6. Societal Alienation - There's the bastard parallels here, the "it would be so sweet to see him again", the "Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa." It's about how Jon, through circumstances of his birth, finds himself alienated from the rest of society and reconnects with his prim and proper sister Sansa, who finds herself alienated from the rest of society as well but for vastly different reasons.

Robb’s Will - Howland is going to show up in the North, along with Maege and Galbert, with some WILD news about why Jon can’t rule Winterfell. There’s a lot of contention around this. Bran probably shows up around this time too, and Arya gets to the Riverlands to discover Lady Stoneheart and give her the gift of mercy. This is where all the inheritance stuff is going to happen and I have no idea how it's going to go down besides it's going to be messy as all fuck.

The Pact Of Ice And Fire - Jon & Sansa get secret married bc they’re in love, not siblings, & jon is the only man she trusts not to steal her claim. This isn't the only possible foreshadowing instance of a marriage either - some believe the Sandor/Sansa scene during the Battle of the Blackwater is foreshadowing as well (personally I feel that's a bit of a stretch but I wanted to include it anyway).

Jon As An Envoy - I talked about this in my "what's Jon's ending" a little but I believe Jon will act as an envoy for either Sansa or Bran to Aegon VI, essentially playing out a similar story that he does in the show with Daenerys. By which I mean, Jon is not the King because the ruler themselves do not go as an envoy, that’s stupid and dangerous, but he goes as an ambassador for Sansa or Bran, to treat with a new claimant to the Iron Throne that is gaining support - Aegon VI & Jon Connington. They will probably clash, Jon will probably have yet another identity crisis, there had BETTER be gay incest subtext, then Aegon dies, and Jon has his sixth quarter life crisis in a row.

“King” of the Gift - again, something I touched on in my Jon meta is that I think he’s going to have a hand in resettling the Gift. Personally, I think it's likely that Jon leaves to protect the claims of his siblings (see: Duncan and Jenny) and goes to the Gift to help resettle it to keep out of the way. This ending is typically referred to as the "bael the bard" ending but i like to think of it as the "brandon's gift" ending instead - though he is not physically with his family, Jon feels fulfilled having confirmed his family loves him through reclaiming Winterfell and marrying Sansa, being reunited with Arya, and being given the Gift by Bran. Sansa claims her children were fathered by a wolf.

So…what does all this do for the story?

Well, in my opinion, several things.

I think the main barrier here is that most people in the greater fandom describe Sansa's story as ~growing past childish wants~ and Jon's as ~rejecting love~ and I do not agree with either of those takes even a little bit. This is where (imo) the dividing line between Jonsas and the rest of the fandom is. I don’t think the answer to Sansa’s question “will anyone ever marry me for love” is going to be “nah" - that's not just a sad story to me (wanting to be married isn't childish! craving intimacy and understanding isn't childish! it's also not wrong for a child to be childish!), I think the idea that Sansa (or Jon) will not find another love just doesn't line up with how George approaches his story. Who Sansa's husband will be has been such a big question, and her story is so heavy into the more romantic tropes like courtly love and chivalry and the line between politics and love and identity, that the question of Sansa's hand in marriage will be plot relevant. I also think it's kinda naive of people to pretend like George isn't very interested in the sexual dynamics of the characters he writes about (yeah, sure, no woman needs a man but "needing a man" is not what this is about. look at everything this man wrote in F&B and tell me he is going to write a female character that longs for sex and desire and doesn't get it!).

After AGOT, nearly every time Sansa thinks about marriage involves her longing for love but believing she will never get it because a man will only ever love her for her claim. Giving her a man - like Jon - who not only will not steal her claim and in fact has defended it twice over already, who will love her for who she is and not what she can give him, is a really important aspect of her story in my opinion.

As for Jon, I am even more firmly against the opinion that his story is about rejecting love; Jon’s story is about wanting to be a good man, to measure up to his father ~despite~ his bastard blood. When Aemon asks if Ned would choose honor over love and Jon stubbornly says yes, Jon is wrong and it’s important to not forget that. Ned has never once in his entire life chosen honor over love; he chooses his daughter’s life over his honor, he chooses his sister & her son’s life over honor, he chooses Arya & Nymeria over honor, and on and on!!! Ned chooses love at almost turn but none of his children know that just yet - look at Robb choosing Jeyne’s honor over his own and how upset he is at the idea that Ned would be disappointed despite the fact that Ned would have understand Robb’s decision! Jon's whole arc is tied up in realizing that it is not wrong or dirty to feel and choose love, passion, and desire and if he never has another romantic arc again, I think you lose the second part of that lesson which is "you are responsible for how you act when you feel love but that doesn't mean that simply choosing love makes you a bad person."

There's also the fact that George has talked a lot about "who lives, who dies, who gets married" and yet we have not one marriage at the end of the show AND there's not a lot of guesses at what "who gets married" means besides Jon/erys (and even if Jonsa doesn't happen, I simply do not see Jon/erys happening. they are not similar enough, they will not be in the same space for long enough, and they are on wildlly different trajectories for their story, they are not getting married let alone having sex). I think Jonsa fits that bill very well.

These various theories - from Sansa being queen, Jon living in exile, The Ashford Tourney Theory, the secret marriage, every one of them - are ideas and themes that I have really been thinking about for about 12 years now. I think Jon and Sansa's relationship could fit with the themes in their stories, the overarching themes in the books, and my own personal opinions. I think it gives George a great opportunity to delve into the courtly love aspects he enjoys so much, as well as delve into inheritance, legacy, legitimacy, honor, incest (yes, that too), and above all, what George himself has said the whole series is about - love. The human heart in conflict with itself is what I think Jon and Sansa as a romantic couple does for the series.

[jackoshadows]

Jonsa shippers using the SanSan story set up for Jonsa:

Book readers:

Just replacing Arya with Sansa in entire stories, themes, narrative arcs and relationships and thinking that works...

Jonsa shippers using Jonrya and Jonerys setup and foreshadowing.

Book readers:

Book Readers:

'Arya is too ugly' to be loved by Jon Snow.

Book readers:

Jonsa shippers when book readers add context they think people might want to know:

[rise-my-angel]

You are sooooo right about shippers not engaging with Jon as his own character. It’s especially weird for me (despite enjoying Jonerys in theory) to see Jonerys shippers doing this because like. They haven’t met. None of them are show!Jonerys fans for obvious reasons so it’s just the book versions of these characters and they have not met. Literally it’s all speculation about their dynamic. Despite being open to the ship under specific circumstances I don’t think it’s undeniably foreshadowed at all. Everything that gets called foreshadowing is tenuous. You can’t generally definitively call something foreshadowing until the events being purportedly foreshadowed actually come to pass, unless it’s truly really screaming in your face obvious but if it’s that obvious I’m not sure if it’s that good from a writing perspective. I think foreshadowing should only really be clear in retrospect. Shippers also are so selective in what they’ll acknowledge just do they can hold onto these moments. Like jonsas and the Slynt beheading. You’re so right that it is a JON moment. And shippers refuse to acknowledge that George say he was originally going to have Slynt HUNG, not beheaded, until someone pointed out that Jon would want to do it the northern way. Of everyone I think Jonrya shippers do the best at acknowledging Jon as his own character and I think it’s because there’s so much in the actually text demonstrating how much Jon and Arya care about each other. It’s not speculation unlike with Jonsa and Jonerys. It’s just that they read this and think it’s romance instead of sibling love. I can’t say I blame them because of the original outline, but it’s also a ship that is really really not for me because they were raised as siblings.

I actually sent you an ask months ago and forgot to check your response. I finally found it. I discussed how much upbringing influences how we know who our relatives are and that that’s why Jonerys doesn’t make me uncomfortable the way Jonrya and Jonsa do. I’m an evolutionary biologist so I fully understand why incest is avoided. However, I didn’t know how much we actually CAN detect our blood relatives without being raised to know who they are. I fully believed it was entirely upbringing, because upbringing is sufficient to establish someone as “relative” in our brains (ie adopted siblings recognize each other as siblings and are repulsed by the idea of mating despite not sharing blood). But I came to the false conclusion that because it was sufficient it’s the only mechanism. I did some looking into it and you’re right! There’s evidence that we can subconsciously smell our relatives based on MHC complexes—however this isn’t 100% reliable because sometimes our relatives will have differing MHC complexes and nonrelatives will have very similar ones just based on recombination and the gene pool of the population, but that’s why the upbringing factor exists as a supplement to innate biological factor. I appreciated being prompted to learn more!

However I’m not sure George would take this into consideration. Within the universe of the books, I think it’s perfectly feasible that they wouldn’t biologically recognize each other as relatives because there are many cases of non first degree incest (first degree being siblings and parents) being carried out without any disgust. However real life is obviously different I do not blame anyone at all for being opposed to a ship based on real life principles. There are lots of ships I oppose that would be fine in-universe based on my own real life principles.

Anyway I’ve said a lot here and sorry for all the words. I just really enjoy discussion and it’s hard to have any nuanced conversations in the fandom because of the issues we’ve mentioned here and I’m eager to find someone so willing to engage with people who have different opinions

You wrote me an essay, so I wrote you a novel in return. I am sorry in advance but I love rational and calm, respectful discussions and debate and you thus far have been a great sport for my word vomit.

This isn't directed at you personally, but more of a blanket statement in saying, it is just very odd and funny that in this specific fandom, I find myself having to be more knowledgeable about the harmful physical, genetic, and psychological impacts of incest, to explain why I am against it, then those who are for it. It is just very funny how much defending I do about not supporting incest ships, compared to any other fandom where any incest shippers live in the dark because they know it's weird and gross.

That being said, I'm addressing Jonrya first. Because, I have gone on record to say I personally think shipping that is very gross.

Show or Book, that is a dynamic where any romantic implications being attached to it are very uncomfortable. Arya is so deeply ingrained in his head as his baby sister that adding any romance to that makes Jon look incredibly predatory. Arya is still a very young child in the single digits in the books, and Jon is very clearly at the start of the show a man in his 20's.

I do not think claiming anything of the outline is any reasonable argument. It was in an outline which was scrapped for a reason. As a writer, I wouldn't want any of my initial outline ideas to be used as proof of canon. It isn't canon one way or the other and I do not accept it as fair use of evidence for a ship. Jons canon thoughts about her are textbook loving older brother. It feels predatory to make Jons thoughts of a very young, child Arya to be that of romantic. It makes him appear as if his closeness and kindness were all tinted in a different intent towards a child.

Arya in every adaptation, is too young. I will never support any evidence of that ship because it is the exact kind of predatory dynamic which Jonrya fans denounce in other ships involving older man/younger woman characters. I hate this idea of taking Jons point of view and deciding his affection is not brotherly, only when discussing his sisters. It takes away the validity of Jons character being a good big brother, because now his good brotherly nature only towards his sisters is rooted in predatory behaviour whether they realize it or not. This goes for Jonrya and Jonsa both.

Moving on, you did hit the nail on the head about the “proof” about Jon and Dany. Foreshadowing is not a common tool used whenever grrm writes anything. Foreshadowing is a very specific tool he uses to elaborate more on motifs and themes and over arching plots, rather then for every minute character dynamic. Jon and Dany have literally no evidence that a ship will exist. They are not even on the same continent and they are constantly shown to be at extreme moral opposites to one another.

There is no scrap of proof a relationship or even base attraction will ever exist. That is all pure fan theory with no in text evidence. Same with Jon and Sansa. Jon doesn't not think about Sansa because he loves her the most. That is not Jon Snow, we know that. He thinks constantly about the people he loves, and there is no evidence backing up he doesn't think of her often for love that is not also pure fan theory with no empirical evidence. Sansa had rarely ever thought about Jon and when she has more times then not, it was associated in a negative light. Her points of view about her bullying of Arya showcase that, as she insults and wishes to denounce Arya as someone she should care about in ways that connect her to Jon. Wishing Arya was a bastard like him because she doesn't want to call her a trueborn sister. Repeatedly noting Arya looks just like Jon and then exploring the times Sansa constantly thinks Arya is ugly. The only time she has any growth about this is when she is being talked down to when posing as Petyr Baelish's bastard daughter, and she doesn't like being treated that way, but it is not explored that Sansa has literally treated Jon worse then this her whole life. She has not yet even realized she engaged in the exact same kind of classist treatment that Catelyn treated him with.

So much of what Jonerys, Jonsa, and Jonrya shippers do, is look at Jon and discuss it in a way that supposedly symbolizes their ship. They do NOT analyze their female fave and associate how deeply it all ties to their ship. Jons story is always secretly about the ship, but the other female part of the ship is their own story who will only be about Jon when they get together. Jon is not the character they like, it is the girl. Jon is the love interest, the accessory to their story. Not a unique half all of his own.

As for the incest, because these people all function biologically the same as we do, other then when magic is inferred, it is reasonable to assume real life science is included. Grrm does not need to tell me about invisible pheromones or scent markers for me to apply that to the characters. It is indirectly supported by the sheer fact that most characters within the world of asoiaf do not engage in incest and do not support it. Meaning, 99% of the average population of asoiaf are not attracted to their family members what so ever. Meaning it is reasonable to assume the same biological factors are at play here.

But the thing about certain incest dynamics not being carried out with disgust doesn't really apply with Jon ships here. Jons three biggest ships are his little sisters, and his aunt. Two family relations that both physically and psychologically are the most harmful to engage in. The dynamics of incest shown to be the most psychologically harmful is sibling to sibling incest, parent to child incest, and aunt/uncle to nephew/neice incest. Those are such close familial ties with SO many shared biological markers that it is not reasonable at all to think not knowing each other at first would make that biological connection less important. I only met my aunt in my mid 20's and from that moment on she has been as much my aunt in my head as my mother is my mother. Once that knowlede of family is made, it will not be severed. If Jon is not inclinced already towards incest, he will never engage in it with that knowledge.

Dany is his aunt. Dany also, has very inbed genetics to a shocking degree, meaning the biological markers she shares with Jon would be so strong she basically would wreak of red flags. And learning they have such a close biological connection would instantly sever any possible ability in Jon to view her in any romantic or physical attraction sense. He was not raised like her. Jon does not now think incest is normal, and thus he never will.

Also, learning Dany is his aunt would make any physical or romantic dynamics extremely traumatizing for him. The second Jon learns the truth of his birth, Jon will realize that he is related to Dany in the exact way Jon spent his whole life thinking he was related to the woman who was his mother. Jon learning his aunt was actually his mother, would destroy any capability of a relationship with Dany.

That would utterly change every single way he views any character in a motherly or aunt manner. It would destroy that potential in an instant because now Dany is to Jon, what Jon previously thought his mother was to him. It would be traumatizing should a relationship already exist and it would sever any chance of a relationship forming if it hadn't existed already.

The reason the Targaryeans did the most incest and are almost extinct, is because their engaging in incest was not sustainable and it was harmful.

Shown by characters like Egg, who literally grew up his whole life trying to escape the incestual nature of his family. One of his brothers made threats about cutting off his manhood in terms of making a wife for himself. That is not a family who engages in incest beceause they think it is normal. This is a family raised to view their incest in terms of furthering a bloodline because they see themselves as superior to those they rule over. They do not think it is fine, they do it because they raise each other to think it is necessary to further their superior bloodline. And they paid the price. Targaryean women the more inbred they were struggled to give birth, struggled to carry pregnancies to term and often died on the birthing bed with alarming freqency for how short their dynasty lasted.

It is not sustainable and it is harmful. The main plot beat of the story was literally how so many people viewed the incestual relationship of a brother and sister to be an abomination, that wars were started to dethrone them and the population and faith turned against them for it. This is not a world where people think incest is fine, unless it is a learned behaviour their whole life.

People can ship it, it's fine. But despite how much he writes it, grrm time and time again has shown that those in asoiaf who engage in incest, pay a deep, harmful price for it. He writes it a lot, but writing a lot of it does not mean he thinks it is behavior which should be supported for his charcters. Otherwise those who engage in such close incest, would not constantly be punished for doing so.

I have to apply real world logic to being anti incest, because my excuse of “I think it's gross” has been deemed as hateful and unfair. So you can imagine it is frustrating to see my favourite character is primiarly shipped with either women with VERY close biological or familial ties to him, or his rapist.

So, yeah I love talking about Jon but so much of it is me defending why I have never been convinced of any pro incest arguments. It is a goofy situation to be in.

Those who followed me for my pedro pascal content are dying on the inside, I decided I loved Jon Snow and suddenly my blog keeps becoming a haven of debates around the morality of incest.

It is silly silly silly.

[lawonderlandwriter]

Seriously, what is the point of Jon dying and being brought back if not to release him of his Night’s Watch vows so he can marry and father children? And not just break some but not others. He’s got to break them ALL.

daenerys: thinks she could have married her brother's son if he was alive

jon:

[sherlokiness]

I think your Sansa chicken metaphor as foreshadowing for jonsa marriage is stronger than the blue flower sweetness meaning jonerys marriage. /s

Hi, anon! Why do I feel like you're making fun of me? I am serious about Sansa being a chicken!!! I'm sure you're familar about the trope in stories where the hero gets a reward after saving the day.

The hero will slay the dragon and get a princess' hand in marriage as a reward. Is it crazy to expect this? I don't think so. The series is ultimately a song. All the stories can't be lies. There are true knights and heroes.

The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride. Ghost went back to his meal.

In the first book of the series, Ghost faces off against a mongrel bitch bigger than him and will successfully defend his prize. What's the prize? Sansa/Winterfell.

"Hungry again?" he asked. There was still half a honeyed chicken in the center of the table. Jon reached out to tear off a leg, then had a better idea. He knifed the bird whole and let the carcass slide to the floor between his legs

The chicken is a honeyed chicken. It's sweet. *insert quotes of Sansa involving honey and being honey sweet* I'll make smth longer than this later. I think.

Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

"Do you blame me, my lord? Such a prize is not easily won. A nubile girl, I hear, and not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children."

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

Who will win the prize that is Sansa Stark? Is this sexist? Even Jon says Arya is a prize.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it.

Jon's hunger for Winterfell gets mingled with Ghost's hunger. Since Ghost gets to successfully eat the honeyed chicken, I'm gonna assume Jon's hunger will be satisfied.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

Indeed, Jon forgot about the WF hunger because of the appearance of Ghost and how he's different.

Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together.

And Sansa belongs with Ghost.

[wulfhalls]

In case you didn't know istumpysk did a big asoiaf reread where they went through every chapter and since they're a jonsa a lot of it is from a sansa and jon centric frame and they found and highlighted so many possible foreshadowings (not just for jonsa but also for the inidvidual characters and like stuff that the big name fans who think the series will end with jonerys, targ restoration, sansa married off to like harry hardyng or dying after killing sweetrobin would never even consider) and parallels it's insane I'd def recommend checking it out it also helped me when I was doing my reread since I had trouble with all the diff background characters

omg thx if I ever actually get to doing that re read I'll definitely parallel read this analysis! I always love when more intelligent people than me have shit to say about media I love it makes engaging with it a much more enriching experience!

[thelustybraavosimaid]

[ps: and even if it was just "shipping wars" like yeah?? because jonsa is literally built upon attacking and degrading arya and dany, while jonaryas and Jonerys never even have to mention the other girl when talking about their ship]

It's very strange, isn't it? Because the Jonsas who do this are the same ones who say StArK sIsTeR sUpReMaCy, uWu I lOvE tHe StArK sIsTaHs and go on and on and on about how criticising Sansa is steeped in misogyny while hypocritically throwing Dany and Arya under the bus.

Some theories I've heard since I've been in this fandom (since 2014/2015, mind you):

-Dany is going to lose her sanity and kill scores of people, becoming the Mad Queen

-Jon is going to kill Dany for the love of Sansa

-Dany is going to lose every dragon and be useless in the War for the Dawn

-Jon is going to go all Azor Ahai and stab Dany against her will

-Arya is going to be sent on a mission to kill Alayne Stone and will die

-Arya is going to die unceremoniously in the snow (insert frozen fingers quote that everyone misreads), warg into Nymeria and serve as a replacement for Lady.

Ugh, etc...

All of this sounds extremely misogynistic to me. Why Sansa's affection from Jon hinges on two of George's leading ladies—and favourite female characters, mind you—dying disgusts me, and the fact that they feel they must do this seems like subconscious proof they know Jonsa is never fucking happening.

They hype up limited interaction and importance in the narratives from both Jon and Sansa as proof that they are going to end up together, ignore what's written in the books, and treat Dany and Arya like they are somehow lesser than Sansa because she "suffers prettily" and "handles trauma with grace" (which are wild fucking statements in themselves) and I do not get it.

Writers do not write arcs and stories like that. In order for something to have a important narrative punch, like with the fated mates trope, there has to be symbolism established between the two characters. There should be parallels.

Foreshadowing does not exist subconsciously in a narrative, nor should it be twisted to fit perceived ideas of these two would be great together, yeah? That is not good writing. George never equates anything in Jon's narrative to Sansa—he does that with Arya: like, for example Alys Karstark, Ygritte (his lover). Jon questions if Arya was ever his sister while remarking on Ygritte's stubbornness.

Moreover, Jon wishes he had a dragon or three, Val's hair shines a pale silver in the moonlight. Dany sees a great wolf and a man in flames, she thinks that if Rhaegar's son had lived, she would have married him, and she hears a wolf howling after Jon's death. These are incredibly important, but we are expected to believe that Sansa hearing a "ghost wolf" is somehow more important? Or her thinking that it'd be sweet to see Jon after she had to be told that Jon exists?

We don't need to talk about Sansa because we know that her life (or death) would not impede on the importance of either relationship to Jon. We already know from the books and from the show that these three are tightly interconnected and seemingly have always been from the beginning.

[stargareed]

Foreshadowing

Summary: A window into Jon and Dany’s thoughts as they meet for the first time in the Dragonstone throne room

(Jonerys fanfic)

Jon POV

Her question hung in the air like a rotten stench. He knew it was coming and had rehearsed his answer. But he still wasn’t ready for it.

The Targaryens were a strange people. Their castle, Dragonstone, was dark and foreboding, though Jon also felt a queer sense of magic. It reminded him of how he felt in the presence of a weirwood tree, though the magic was of a different sort. There were also dragons everywhere: dragon gargoyles, dragon torch holders, he even walked through a dragon’s mouth doorway to get into the Throne Room. I am truly in the belly of the beast. Even the Queen sat on a dragon throne, nestled underneath curved dragon wings while a dragon head and claws supported her feet. A dragon within a dragon, he chuckled to himself, wondering if there was an even smaller dragon inside the dragon the Queen was sitting on. Probably not, though I would like to see a dragon within a dragon one day.

He looked at those surrounding the Queen. To her left was Tyrion, the one who had requested his presence in Dragonstone and signed the letter “Friend,” a reference to their brief time together at the Wall. Gods that seems like a lifetime ago, though I guess it actually was. Jon thought of the scars that riddled his torso. Tyrion seems to have picked up a few scars of his own. I hope he can still smell his wine, and at least now there’s nothing to block his view of the words he loves to read. Sansa told him that, despite everything, Tyrion treated her well. But Jon was still going to insist on an annulment as part of any deal he struck with the Queen. Tyrion was always the smartest person in the room, and he chose the Queen. Jon wondered if that meant she was the most likely to sit on the Iron Throne once the dust settled, assuming they survived the Long Night. Then again, it doesn’t take a maester to back the only person with dragons. Aegon and Tommen may have cocks, but cocks can’t rain fire on their enemies.

To Tyrion’s left was Ser Barristan Selmy. Jon had idolized him and other members of the kingsguard as a boy, such as Ser Arthur Dayne and Aemon the Dragonknight. Despite Ser Barristan’s long white hair and beard, he still stood tall and imposing, with blue eyes that had no doubt seen many things. What I wouldn’t give to be able to spend an evening with the man and listen to his stories. To the Queen’s right was a young girl with dark hair, a round face, and dusky skin. She also had enchanting golden eyes that were as intelligent as Tyrion’s, though without the pretentiousness. To her right was a clean-shaven man with short brown hair and a solemn face. He must be one of the Queen’s famed Unsullied. Finally, there were several Dothraki guards rounding out the Queen’s protection.

And then there was the Queen herself. She was wearing a red and charcoal dress with black boots. Her silver-blonde hair was decorated with intricate braids while wavy locks fell well past her shoulders. She is stunning. Jon had never seen a Targaryen before. Well, not one that was younger than a hundred years old, at least. He knew of their renowned beauty, but still wasn’t prepared for the effect it had on him. He felt tingles rush over his body. Gods, it’s like I’m a green boy all over again. He had successfully resisted the temptations of Melisandre and Val (well, while he was still bound to the Watch, that is). So he thought he could remain level-headed when meeting the Queen. But with Daenerys, he clearly needed to take extra precautions to assure that his ability to think wasn’t compromised. Think of Septa Mordane’s legs, think of Septa Mordane’s legs.

Out of the corner of his eye he saw a ladybug walking across his shoulder, interrupting his futile attempts to ignore the Queen’s beauty. Gods, even the bugs don Targaryen colors here. The ladybug walked across his chest and settled between the two direwolves that were facing each other on his metal gorget. The bug gave him a sense of calm. Despite everything, the world will continue when I die. That’s some small comfort, I suppose. Gods, to be this ladybug, without a care in the world, flying away from any problem it confronts. Oh, to be able to fly. Jon grinned.

He looked back up to the Queen. Her face was unreadable, though Jon noticed that her hands were bunching her dress on her lap. She’s probably waiting for me to answer her question. How much time has passed? Jon could sense the tension her question caused in the men behind him: Davos, Yohn Royce, and Tormund. He could feel it even more from Ghost at his side, who had somehow managed to successfully hunt during the brief time between their leaving the ship and being summoned by the Queen. 

Jon sighed. The North has suffered so much under Lannister and Baratheon rule. And before that it suffered under the Mad King’s rule. It deserved to control its own destiny for once in 300 years. But that wasn’t the reason he’d refuse. He was brought back to fight the Army of the Dead. What if this Queen wouldn’t let him fight them? What if she insisted on using their armies to expand her territories in Essos? Who knows what in Seven Hells this young Queen would do? But if she helps me defeat the Others, afterwards I’d learn to juggle and be her fool if that’s what she wanted.

“No.”

Jon felt a sense of apprehension fill the room. The girl by Daenerys’s side looked scared and Tyrion looked worried, though some of the Dothraki guards were smiling, apparently ready for the inevitable bloodshed. Will there be bloodshed if I’m burned alive? The Queen, by contrast, did not seem to react at all to his answer.

Just then, the setting sun bathed the Queen in light, making her hair glow like the moon. Ghost loves to stare at the moon, I wonder what he’s thinking? She looked even more beautiful than before, starkly contrasting with the darkness and dampness of her throne room. Jon wasn’t sure if Dragonstone was always this depressing, or if it only became so after its halls were filled with impostors for a generation. Regardless, she would clearly breathe new life into a lifeless castle, much like she would revitalize her House.

It’s strange that my killer is so beautiful, unlike before when my murderers were smelly men with missing teeth. Why would the gods raise me from the ice, just to bathe me in fire? They should’ve just let me be. I never asked to be given a second chance. Melisandre claimed she wanted Stannis to rise, but somehow I did instead. I guess she should’ve bid Stannis rise by name, instead of asking for Azor Ahai to return to life? Well, being bathed in fire by the most beautiful woman in the world will be a more poetic death than I deserve. After all, it beats drowning yourself in wine, Jon imagined Dolorous Edd saying, causing his lips to curl slightly.

Jon felt Ghost getting angrier, likely in reaction to the aggressive posture of the Dothraki guards, who by now had their hands on their arakhs, ready to draw. Though it was strange that Ser Barristan didn’t appear at attention, especially with Ghost’s increasing agitation. Instead, he stared at Jon, deep in thought, stroking his beard.

Jon saw the Queen move further back into her massive throne, sitting cross-legged in the chair. Jon felt Ghost calm down, and then the Queen . . . smiled? Is she charmed by my brazenness, or is this the same smile her father gave when he burned my grandfather alive?

15 Seconds Earlier

Dany POV

Though she had rehearsed the question numerous times, when she finally uttered the words, they didn’t feel quite right.

Gods, Ghost is massive. I thought he would be like a large dog, but he is closer in size to a horse. If I’d have known his power, I wouldn’t have allowed him in. Jon Snow insisted that his party keep their weapons. Dany was going to refuse but Tyrion vouched for him, noting that Starks kept their words, and even if he didn’t, she had far more guards and dragons so Jon would pose no threat. Tyrion also thought that if Jon felt respected and safe, he would be more likely to bend the knee. That might be true, but it was also true that if Jon ordered Ghost to attack me, my dragons are miles away and my men likely couldn’t stop him in time. She also noticed the blood around Ghost’s mouth, easily visible against his white fur. Is that supposed to be a threat?

There were rumors the King in the North carried a Valyrian steel sword. She imagined Jon taking out his sword and holding it up. The silver from his sword and his dark grey eyes would make a striking combination. Speaking of eyes, in combination with his size and white fur, Ghost’s red eyes should have been unsettling. Instead, for some reason, they reminded Dany of the door to her childhood home.

Behind Jon stood three men. One had thinning brown hair peppered with gray, a weathered face, and a pouch around his neck. Tyrion said this was Davos Seaworth, former advisor to Stannis Baratheon, who now served as Jon’s advisor. He must just move from pretender to pretender seeking employment. When Jon dies, who will he go to next, Tommen? She smirked. Next to Davos stood a massive man with grey hair and bushy eyebrows. According to Tyrion, this was Yohn Royce, the leader of the Vale, who wore bronze armor inscribed with runes. On Davos’s other side was a man with red hair and beard who was covered with furs. Some wildling leader, Tyrion had guessed, though he didn’t know the man’s name. The wildling wiggled his eyebrows at Dany. He seems like he’d be fun to drink with, she thought as her lips curled. She then imagined drinking with Jon Snow. She’d have Arbor Red, he’d likely have some type of Northern Ale. She pictured their cups clanking in a toast, the contrast between her purple wine and his dark-brown drink intrigued her.

And then there was the purported King in the North himself. He wore black tabard armor, a metal gorget with two direwolves facing each other, and brown leather skirts and sleeves with a checkerboard pattern. He was . . . comely, there was no denying that. And she had never been with a man her age before. Wait, how old was Hizdahr? Does he even count? She rolled her eyes remembering Hizdahr’s tepid kisses. But despite Jon’s handsomeness, she was no longer a love-sick girl who would be smitten with any dashing rogue that professed his love for her. I wonder how he got that scar across his eye? She was a Queen who would make marriage alliances as necessary to strengthen her rule and her House. Wait, did he just lick his lips? What game is he trying to play? His lips are quite nice.

She noticed that the three men behind Jon were giving him plenty of space. They must have confidence in his abilities, or at least they want me to think they do. Do they trust him? I wonder how much they’ve talked about this meeting? Were they like me and Tyrion, planning out different scenarios? Dany caught the red-haired wildling wiggling his eyebrows again. Is it possible to catch a sexual disease from facial expressions alone?

She wondered what Ser Barristan thought of Jon. Unlike Tyrion, he didn’t travel with the Usurper to Winterfell, so this would be his first-time seeing the Northerner, who was currently flexing the fingers of his sword hand.

Soon, the clouds, sun, and black pillars of the throne room interacted to cast Jon’s face in shadow, covering his gray eyes and raven hair. At the same time, the shifting shadow retreated from behind Jon, revealing a small dragon statute over his right shoulder that was peaking out from between his advisors. Not only was he comely, he was mysterious, with his scar and the rumors surrounding his departure from the Watch. Completely untrue, Tyrion had reassured her. Need I remind you of the fanciful rumors about the Queen of Meereen’s sexual proclivities that infected every ship within a hundred miles of Essos? While Tyrion had a point, she couldn’t help but think that Jon had his secrets. Maybe he would tell her in due time? Though, there’s a chance that there are secrets about him that even he doesn’t know.

Just then, the shadow shifted again to cover the dragon statue and reveal Jon’s face. You’re a Queen, you’re not a love-sick girl. You’re a Qu--

“No.”

She sighed. She wasn’t surprised by his answer, though she was disappointed. The North was in no position to be independent. And if he wants my help in his war against Northern fairytales, the least he could do . . .

Ghost began snarling, and she felt a stab of worry shoot through her body. If he rushed me now, I’d be dead before my guards could stop him. If they could even stop him.

She looked back at Jon, pursing her lips. She didn’t fault him for refusing to bend the knee. Of course, a bastard who had worked so hard to rise and become king would be loath to give it up, especially when he just received it. But it’s not his to take; Torrhen Stark bent the knee.

Ghost was now fully baring his teeth. She had been sitting on the edge of her throne so that her feet touched the ground. But she decided to sit all the way back in the massive chair, so that she was partially enveloped by the dragon wings. It made her feel safe, as it was like being in a womb. This caused her fear to subside, and she began to feel a sense of calm and . . . respect? She knew that her dragons were more powerful, but they were not here, and when they were, they were far harder to contain. They’re like a sword, and Ghost is like a knife. While a sword is more powerful, a knife is always there, ready to use. Just imagine having both.

Just then, Ghost stopped snarling at her and began wagging his tail. Wait, can he hear my thoughts?

She smiled.

[fromtheseventhhell]

Isn't it very funny how jonsas are yapping that jonerys foreshadowing is negative and then proceed to claim that loveless marriage where one of them dies and another remmaries is the biggest evidence for jonsa

Well to be fair, they don't actually read the books so they don't know that sdksdkdsksd. As with everything they're only looking at the surface level of things and ignoring the context.

[agentrouka-blog]

Well why does it bother you if people think jonerys is gonna happen. Just enjoy your own ship. Who cares.

I answer asks people put into my ask box, and sometimes they ask my opinion on this pairing, which I answer honestly?

(Also sometimes I point and laugh at hypocrisies in the way people weigh lines of foreshadowing.)

I pretty much always use the "anti jonerys" or "anti daenerys targaryen" tags so people who would prefer not to see this kind of content can avoid it by using tumblr's useful filtering function. It's excellent. I use it to filter out jonerys content so that I don't have to see it. I highly recommend it. Hint hint.

[esther-dot]

But why do you think jonsa wasn’t more foreshadowed if they’re the main romantic pairing?

Well, I think we have comparable foreshadowing, often as a positive contrast to Jonerys foreshadowing which the entire fandom believes is the big romance of the series, so I’m gonna challenge your premise and argue that it isn't the lack of foreshadowing for Jonsa that you're noticing, but the fandom's refusal to accept it. I believe that's because Jonsa is a threat to their priors (Jon and Dany are the heroes, they will meet, fall in love, and defeat the Others together, something that is impossible to believe when Martin says things like this) rather than it being a fair evaluation of the existence or merit of our foreshadowing.

Below I'll point out a few kinds of foreshadowing/examples and present the similar Jonsa version so you can see what I mean.

The premise for Jonerys seems to be that every similarity in their arcs is a parallel, but they are actually contrasts if you read closely (fedonciadale's post about that), and Sansa too has parallels with Jon as you can see in @thewindsofwolves's beautiful parallel series. Their similar journeys are also captured in this gifset and this gorgeous art, and it is certainly intentional, as Sansa seems to pattern Alayne in part on Jon ie we're being told she's getting to experience parts of his life. And, unlike Dany whose plan to conquer Westeros puts her at odds with the Starks, Sansa and Jon are written as having the same, very simple, compatible dream,

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya. (ASOS, Sansa II) I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. (ASOS, Jon XII)

If we're looking for a romance, foreshadowing that is about a personal relationship, this seems pertinent? And then there's Jon's desire to rebuild Winterfell, and the scene of Sansa literally building it out of snow:

Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (ASOS, Jon XII) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. (ASOS, Sansa VII)

Those two, back-to-back chapters, are absolutely full of parallels. They share a dream, and upon their reunion, will have a common purpose. I'll also link my post about how Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion has connections to Jon's relationship with Ygritte, and @stormcloudrising's post about the similarities between the interactions of Sansa and the Hound & Jon and Ygritte. There are tons of these, but you get the idea. If we're looking for parallels between experiences, we have them.

Now, a popular method of finding foreshadowing is chapter order, but Jonsa has that too. Here's a 2018 post by @julibf that talks a bit about it, and @istumpysk's ASOS recap talks about that here and here.

There are two moments I've seen Jonerys shippers point to quite often as foreshadowing. Jon and the moon, Dany and the wolf. But the thing is, Sansa is the sun, and one of the "Jonerys" (Jon and the moon) passages has Jon running away from the moon to the cave with the sun (fedonciadale's post about that). The wolf moment also has a Jonsa contrast:

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep. (ADWD, Daenerys X) All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains. (AFFC, Alayne II)

Far be it from me to say that Dany hearing a wolf but being lost to her desires and Sansa hearing a wolf, a ghost wolf, and finding it an overwhelming presence (mountain) means something, but if one does, the other does too. And if we're reading them both as foreshadowing, I think there are some reasonable, and unreasonable conclusions to draw from them. So, you can see why imo the fandom employs a double standard in how they weigh the merits of foreshadowing and interpret one as nonexistent and the other as real and positive.

Another oft referenced bit is Dany's vision of the blue flower and the dream of the shadowy lover, so I'll link some analysis of those that I think is far more...uh, shall I say, contextualized. There are @agentrouka-blog's posts on Winter Roses here and here, and her tag for it if you're interested in really exploring it thoroughly. There’s fedoncidale's post about it, her post about the shadowy lover, and @ladyofasoiaf's spec about how the shadow lover foreshadowing is actually Euron.

Oh, and I almost forgot Val who I've seen brought into the picture as foreshadowing for Dany, but there's a funny thing with her hair which again, if we're gonna look at her hair color and say she's a stand-in for Dany, we should be able to look at it and say, ok, but that means over here she's a stand-in for Sansa, and besides, the connotations for Jonerys there are very bad as discovered by @wintersnow39.

Basically, I don't think there's a lack of foreshadowing, I think there's simply a bias in the fandom that rejects Jonsa foreshadowing while happily accepting incredibly similar foreshadowing for other couples.