#jon snow asos i

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

We need to talk more often about how clever was Jon on his first meeting with Mance at ASOS. The boy knew that despite the guest right protecting him ( since he had already eaten at Mance's table) he was still in a dangerous position so he had to choose his words carefully in order to survive. So what did he do once Mance asked him why he deserted?

First, he brought some extra time to himself - so he could think more carefully what to answer - by taking a long drought of mead. Then his great observation skills paid off, as he correctly had observed that Mance was a man who liked to talk about himself. So when Jon asked him to reveal first his reasons for his own desertion of the Night's Watch, Mance gladly took the bait. And by doing so, he learned more about his opponent and his values. That made Jon more prepared to give an answer which would satisfy Mance once his turn of talking came.

They say that the best lies are based on truth, and that's what Jon does with his answer to Mance. He's not lying when he implies that he was jealous because he wasn't allowed to attend on the central table along with his family and the royal family. Back on his first chapter in AGOT, where that feast took place, it was crystal clear that Jon was jealous and he was drinking too much trying to forget. However, what he didn't tell Mance there was that his love for his family, his brothers at the Wall and the North in general is so much bigger than any negative feelings he had.

[polysucks]

I think a lot about the stark children. I think a lot about when arya told us how when she was little and bran was a baby robb led them and sansa into the crypts of winterfell and jon dressed up like a ghost and sansa ran crying and bran cried and arya scolded the two boys for making the baby cry and jon and robb laughing and my heart fuckin breaks.

They were children.

robb cried in his mother’s arms when he approached her for advice on how to militarize his troops—the vast legions of the north he inherited only days before when his father was wrongfully and publicly executed. He felt pressured to act, despite how little he knew about what could be done. He was sixteen.

sansa told jeyne she was silly for crying, but cried when she begged for mercy for her father, begged for cersei to allow her to marry vicious predator joffrey. deep down she knew it was the safest choice for her. She was twelve.

arya watched the life leave a stable boy’s eyes, not much older than her, as he begged her to remove needle from his chest. She watched him die by her hands. He haunted her escape. She saw him out of the corners of her eyes and she was terrified of him. She killed him because she had no choice. She was nine.

jon had tears in his eyes with violent rage, launching himself over rows of tables and furniture when he attacked alistair for insulting the memory of eddard, the only father he ever knew. He brandished a dagger and wielded insults with the fury of a thousand wildlings, ready to instantly make alistair suffer a cruel death by his own hands as his black brothers struggled to hold him back. He was sixteen.

Remember that they are children.

How would you have felt if you were their ages, and this had happened to you.

[greywoe]

"The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen."

[buildoblivion]

“Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung." - ACOK

“Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice” - ASOS

[a-chaotic-dumbass]

cant have no favorite characters in asoiaf bc ur like ned is cool and he loses his head then ur like damn man that sucks i can settle on theon i suppose and then we lose his chapters after hes knocked out and ur like shit guess tyrion is my fav now and then he loses his nose and ur like nvm maybe i like jaime the most now he seems pretty safe and his hand is chopped off and then ur like its ok its ok cat is safe see shes about to depart for winterfell and her boys! and then u get to chapter 51 of a storm of swords and ur like holy shit holy fuck man ok no way grrm would harm arya tho shes a child! and then shes blinded and then we get 'reek' chapters again and ur like fuck fuck shit shit abort abort and then ur reading the last book and suddenly jon snow has more holes in him than a slice a swiss cheese and ur like what the fuck george

[long-claw]

there's a very small but distinct change from book to show in s3e9 that i think is fascinating. right before the red wedding, catelyn and roose bolton are discussing edmure and roslin's bedding ceremony, and when bolton references catelyn's own bedding, she says this:

"Oh, Ned forbade it. He said it wouldn't be right if he broke a man's jaw on our wedding night."

whereas in the book, not only does this conversation not happen, but catelyn specifically recounts her bedding happening and makes no mention of ned being opposed at all.

i don't know for sure why this change was made but if i had to guess i'd say it was at least partly to make ned more likable to a modern audience. it's almost as if they were trying to make ned fit his reputation "better" but i actually think it misunderstands it completely.

ned is known throughout westoros as being "honourable", within westoros culture. the bedding ceremony isn't seen as being "dishonourable", it's tradition. ned going against that wouldn't add to his honourable reputation, it would make him some weird progressive guy that shuns tradition.

but the one time he does shun tradition is by bringing jon home and giving him a place in his family, and i think the change in the show takes away from just how strange that was for ned to do. ned stark conforms to tradition perfectly, except for that one smudge.

[sare11aa11eras]

Like I DO like to make the joke that “Jon was the better brother who supported his younger sisters’ claims to Winterfell lolz” but like Actually:

That choice wasn’t about them. Either of them.

It wasn’t about feminism either.

He very much DID want Winterfell and is kind of bitter about everything

He ultimately decides that, although he might be an oathbreaker already so maybe it wouldn’t be worse to go full hog and take Stannis’s offer, he DEFINITELY can’t hand over the Godswood to be burned by Melisandre bc that would DEFINITELY go against his religion. So he’s not doing that.

It takes him like a loooooooonnnnggggg while, a dip in a hot tub, and a reunion with the beating heart of his soul via Ghost in order to come to this conclusion

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

random but it struck me that age is just another parallel/anti-parallel that Jon and Jaime will share. Jaime was 16/17(?) when he made the fateful choice to kill Aerys, which forever besmirched his honor and caused him to be “the Kingslayer” (deragatory). Jon was about the same age, 17/18, when he made the fateful decision to march south against the Boltons, something that will undoubtedly dent his already shaky reputation and could cause him to be “the deserter” (also deragatory).

We always talk about how Jaime stagnated and wallowed in his nihilism after Aerys’ death, never growing or maturing past that point; in a way, he was always mentally stuck at 17. Jon could very well die given the wounds he received during the mutiny, and though he will be revived, he will be always be physically stuck at 17, never maturing past that point. But I think Jon has been more successful in a way that Jaime never was in that he figured out quite early (when he was 15) that though he may lose his honor, he must keep pushing for the greater good. He understood the concept of “a bastard’s honor”, and is even more fortunate to receive Tyrion’s lesson of using one’s lowly position/lack of honor to his advantage, which he has been doing to enact what he considers to be the moral goods (ref “bastard” “guilty of that, at least”). P.S: I also think it’s funny given Aemon’s advice to kill the boy in order for the man to be born. Ironic that Jon will always be a boy physically.

Jaime grew physically but not so much mentally. Jon grows mentally (it’s actually his strong suit as a character how much he matures with each book) but he will have sacrificed the ability to age normally as a boy would. Jaime lost his honor at ~17 and is characterized but years of (mental) inaction. I think Jon, on the other hand, will lose his honor but will be more and more prone to making decisions, because to hell with it all.

[catofoldstones]

Something also has to be said about Robb being the first person to tell Jon that he can’t be the lord of Winterfell because he’s bastard-born and then actively advocating for Jon inheriting after Robb and naming him the successor to Winterfell in his will.

[rosaluxembae]

It wasn't until I read the chapter where Jon mentions that he might have been a lord in the resettled gift for the second time, that I realised that if he reversed Stark colours, as is customary for bastards, it'd be a white direwolf like Ghost.

Like obviously I knew he got the albino one because it's like the misfit and he's the bastard, and they talk about it but I hadn't realised that it was the same as the Stark sigil reversed, or the significance of it.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

The concept of freedom on ASOS JON I:

The first chapter of Jon Snow on ASOS is an important one in terms of world building as we finally get to visit the Free folk camp and witness their way of life. It's also a chapter where the subject of freedom and what it means to be free is heavily featured and that is something I wanted to share my views on.

Ygritte informs Jon that he's a free man. Jon very much doubts it and question whether he's free to leave the free folks. To which Ygritte replies that he's free to do so but her people are also free to kill him for his choice.

This conversation proves what Jon already knew; that despite what Ygritte or any other from the free folk might say, he's far from being a free man. He's still being watched closely and on the first mistake he makes he's gonna lose his head.

Ygritte believes that all brothers of the night's watch secretly want to abandon their order " in your hearts you all want to fly free" but since we read Jon's pov chapter we know that this ain't true for the boy.

In a way, Jon is like Orell's eagle. On this chapter the bird is shown to fly free:

Somewhere above an eagle soared on great blue-grey wings, while below came men and dogs and one white direwolf.

The reality is sadder thought, since the bird is controlled by its new warg master. Similarly, Jon while being told he's "free" is anything but that.

Later on Mance shares his own reasons for abandoning his post on the Night's Watch and -you guessed it - it has lots to do with freedom or the lack of it. When he was attacked by a shadowcat beyond the Wall, he was healed by a woman belonging to the free folk who mended his torn cloak with red silk. For Mance, this cloak was important but for the Night's Watch it was unacceptable to let him keep a cloak that wasn't totally black. This lack of freedom was what lead him to abandon the order.

Before his first appearance on page, it was easy to imagine Mance as the antagonist to the Night's Watch who was a traitor at his core. But this chapter with his introduction and his backstory did a great job humanising him. It also gives food for thought, about what is freedom and how important is (or isn't) to each individual compared to other virtues.

[polysucks]

re: your post about "pathologizing" the fandom what the fuck do you mean there will be an end to the books grrm will finish the series.

You mean this post? damn bro how far did you dig on my profile that post is literally 32 days old who are you.

You also seem to think I'm implying the gewlrghe will never finish the series. I don't care if he does, or doesn't. Who am I to insist an artist ever finish any of their work? Who are any of us to pressure an artist into moulding their work into something we want when we want it? The nature of art is to be made and to exist, not to please others or provide a platform--those are just cool by products. My whole point is that if we don't get a tangible or traditional "ending" to the series, I would feel perfectly satisfied with that, because the series doesn't end. but honestly, yeah, I'd be more than happy to elaborate. (threat)

Your Fave Will Never Win: ASOIAF is a lesson in futility

Because history doesn’t stop just because you want it to

Word count: 967 Time to read: 5 - 9 mins No major CWs except for my opinions, which are classified by the SCP Foundation as optic hazards

The allure of the Gieroge’s worldbuilding lies in how vast it is. it's a story woven into the fabric of a world that stretches across millennia, encompassing the rise and fall of entire civilizations. But what sets this series apart from more conventional fantasy narratives is not simply the extent of its history or the intricacies of its politics (you can find politics and drama in any series—HBO’s Succession would look right at home in ASOIAF world. if someone writes that au @ me i want that so bad please please please). It is the fact that the story doesn’t promise resolution in the traditional sense.

And really, it never actually ends.

To explore this, we first understand the foundational concept that Westeros—and by extension, the world beyond its borders—exists as a continuum. The history of the lands, the stories embedded within its past, present, and future, are a reflection of the cycles of human ambition, triumph, and failure. These cycles began long before the events of the [main series] and will continue long after. They echo the inescapable truth of the series: life goes on. It is an unbroken thread, indifferent to the victories or defeats of its characters.

Consider the framing of the narrative.

We are presented with a snapshot—a single, albeit momentous, chapter (for lack of a better term) in the history of this world. The War of the Five Kings and the struggle for the Iron Throne may seem central to the story being told when it comes to what the viewers are able to see on the pages before them, but they are just one strand in a sprawling tapestry that is the entirety of the story of the land. Westeros (a name I’m using generalized for the entirety of the encompassing world) endured the Long Night and the Age of Heroes; it withstood the doom of Valyria and the conquest of Aegon I. The tale that the geotgre chooses to tell is not about finality, but about the ongoing churn of history, the weight of the past pressing against the present, and the inevitability of future change.

This is why it’s a mistake to approach ASOIAF as though it has an "endgame" in the conventional sense. The idea of closure, of a definitive conclusion where all threads are tied and the world settles into a stable equipoise, is antithetical to the world the Geroeighe has built. Were the series about achieving that kind of resolution, it could have ended with Joffrey inheriting Robert’s throne. After all, one king succeeded another. “Order” was restored—however cruel and imperfect. But the series shows us, time and again, that crowns change hands, dynasties fall, and the wheel of power turns endlessly. There is no single victory or defeat that halts this wheel.

The obsession with infighting and being an endgame enthusiast within the fandom arises, in part, from a desire to impose structure and resolution onto a story that inherently resists both. (just like we see about real life history in discussions like why we don't teach CRT in schools. Like this is a serious point to make while having this discussion, but I digress.) Fans often debate who "deserves" to rule or which character’s arc leads most naturally to a victorious conclusion (and I am guilty of this as well, you can have both--that's allowed u know). But such debates miss the point: ASOIAF isn’t about "winning." It’s about the cost of pursuing power, the corruption it more often than not results in, the ephemeral nature of dominance, and the ways in which individual struggles are subsumed by the inexorable march of time.

One might argue that the true thematic heart of the series lies in the seasons—the cycles of summer and winter that govern not only the physical world but the lives and legacies of those who inhabit it. Summer will end. Winter will come. And after winter, there will be another summer. It’s fundamentally cyclical. Humanity’s victories and defeats, its loves and betrayals, its wars and peaces, are all bound by this rhythm. The Long Night—perhaps the ultimate existential threat in the series—is not an end, but a reminder of humanity’s fragility and resilience within these cycles. The struggle against the Others is no less significant for its place in the timeline, but it is still a chapter, not the final word.

This cyclical nature calls into question the very notion of finality. The Targaryens may have lost the Iron Throne, but their legacy lingers in the ashes of their dragons and the bloodlines of their descendants. The Baratheons rose to power (if you can call it that...), only to fracture and crumble under the weight of their own shortcomings. The Starks, Lannisters, Greyjoys, Tyrells—all are players in a game that predates them and will outlast them. The Iron Throne itself is merely a symbol of transient authority, a prize for those willing to bleed for it, yet ultimately irrelevant to the tides of history.

So why does the story endure? Why does it resonate so deeply with us as the audience? maybe it's because the jorge's world mirrors our own in its refusal to offer pretty little endings or simple truths. The conflicts of Westeros feel real because they are ongoing. They resist resolution because resolution—true, lasting resolution—is a myth. The world goes on. New summers dawn, new winters threaten, and the cycle continues.

In this context, the “endgame” of ASOIAF is not about who sits on the Iron Throne or who triumphs over the Others. It is about the recognition that there is no such thing as an endgame. The story’s power lies in its refusal to conclude, its insistence that life, with all its complexity and contradiction, marches forward. It is this refusal—this infinite sprawl—that makes this shit show of a series a masterpiece. It reminds us that the stories we tell and the worlds we build are bigger than any one conflict, any one moment, or any one ending. They endure, as they always have, and as they always will.

[the-boundless-sea]

a list of stark family moments and details i treasure 🫶

jon telling gilly she has a pretty name when they meet because sansa told him once that he should always tell a lady they have a pretty name upon being introduced (jon iii, acok)

robb sitting up with bran after he goes to bed, trying to cheer his little brother up after his fall by telling him how their mother will be home soon and after they'll do a surprise visit to jon in castle black

and bran realizing robb has started crying as he says this, and so taking on the role of comforter and reaching out to hold his big brother's hand as they sit in the dark (bran iv, agot)

robb being unable to resist correcting catelyn for leaving jon out when she says there were 'five wolves for five stark children' despite trying not to argue with her (catelyn ii, asos)

this acting as an echo of when they found the wolves and it initially appeared there were only five, and jon, arguing they should keep the pups to make bran happy, told ned it was a sign that there were five direwolves for five stark kids. even at 7-years-old, bran understands jon is leaving himself out of the count to make it match and loves his brother "with all his heart at that moment." (bran i, agot)

"he was no true stark, had never been one... but he could die like one. let them say that eddard stark fathered four sons, not three." - jon, as he attempts to leave the night's watch to join robb (jon ix, agot)

"mother. you forget my father had four sons. jon's more a stark than some lordlings from the vale who've never set eyes on winterfell." robb, as he legitimizes jon as a stark, names him his heir, and goes to release him from the night's watch (catelyn v, asos)

jon being so overjoyed when bran wakes up from his coma that he cries, hugs tyrion and runs around castle black telling random guards his brother is going to live (jon iii, agot)

arya and bran teaming up to ambush sansa with a dozen snowballs each and sansa retaliating by chasing arya throughout the castle until she tripped. arya stopping to make sure she wasn't hurt and throwing another snowball at her face when she isn't. sansa pulling arya to to the ground and covering her in snow while they both laugh the whole time.

sansa making a snow model of winterfell after reliving this memory because there's no point in snowballs without someone to throw them at. (sansa vii, asos)

everything about the story of jon and robb's ghost prank in the crypts. robb making sure they have one (1) candle about to flicker out. jon being covered in flour makes him a ghost. bran holding arya's hand and hiding behind robb. sansa just fucking taking off. arya's strategy being to punch a ghost into submission. jon and robb laughing so hard bran and arya can't even stay mad and start laughing too. the fact the entire reason it comes up is it's a memory that makes arya smile and feel brave. (arya iv, agot)

rickon being too young to understand why jon isn't sitting with them like he normally does when the king is visiting and holding up the procession when he sees jon sitting somewhere else. (jon i, agot) he keeps asking why jon isn't sitting with them throughout the feast. (bran iii, acok)

jon telling catelyn he doesn't care if she calls the guards on him, she can't stop him saying goodbye to bran.

robb being able to tell something is off with jon after this takes place, and gently asking if his mother said something and jon lying in response to smooth the situation out. (jon ii, agot)

bran wondering if direwolves miss their brothers and sisters too. (bran i, acok)

jon and robb climbing the towers at winterfell to practice shouting at one another after ned told them it's doesn't matter how brilliant a man is if his men can't hear his commands during a battle. (jon vii, asos)

arya thinking if she could see sansa again she'd kiss her and beg her pardons like a proper lady to make her happy. (arya vii, acok)

sansa, believing her younger brothers to be dead, thinks of how she'll name her sons eddard, bran, and rickon. she pictures them all looking like her "late" brothers and sometimes dreams they'll have a girl who looks like arya too. (sansa ii, asos)

when jon imagines leaving the night's watch, he thinks wistfully of having a son named robb. he also fantasizes gilly's son and mance's son would grow up as pseudo-twin brothers like him and robb (jon xii, asos)

the boys would all share a bed to stay warm whenever it got cold. i love to picture this after they got the direwolves so the humans and wolves are all in one big puppy pile. (jon vi, acok) jon also says he would lay up at night while his brothers slept next to him and make his plans to join the night's watch (jon i, agot), so in this mental picture i have all the other boys are dead asleep, while jon super seriously explains his plans to ghost at 3am.

whenever she's on the verge of reuniting with other family members, arya worries they won't want her anymore because of what she's had to do to survive. but when she thinks of reuniting with jon, she thinks "jon will want me. even if no one else does." (arya xii, asos)

bran, sansa, and arya all saying they have to be as brave or as strong as robb when they're hyping themselves up. (bran iv, asos; sansa iv, asos; arya ii, agot) jon dreaming of being "as good and true a son as robb." (jon x, asos) he's literally the golden standard for all his siblings.

robb's ghost showing up in both jon and arya's dreams, with neither one recognizing him (jon viii, asos; cat of the canals, affc)

bran being jealous of jon for thinking of the name ghost first for his direwolf because it sounds so cool while being so disdainful of rickon deciding to call his shaggydog. (bran ii, agot)

jon continuing to hope bran and rickon's consciousnesses live on in their direwolves when he believes them dead. (jon i, adwd; jon viii, asos)

bran wanting to be a wolf so he could find arya and sansa and protect robb in battle so they could all return to winterfell. (bran i, acok)

jon remembering how bran would always follow him and robb everywhere and try join in on whatever they were doing. (jon iii, agot)

rickon following robb everywhere and physically clinging to robb after their other siblings and parents are gone. robb arguing with catelyn over how scared and abandoned rickon feels with her gone. (catelyn iii, agot)

after bran wakes, rickon cries if robb's away more than half a day and asks bran when robb is coming back (bran iv, agot). when robb goes south, rickon melts down so much that he won't eat - he just screams and cries all day and attacks adults who try to comfort him. (bran vi, agot)

jon imagining both his sisters' reactions to seeing the beautiful morning frost at craster's. he pictures sansa crying from how magical it looks and arya running to touch everything he can. (jon iii, acok)

robb and jon's bickering devolving into a race where robb is laughing and hooting and jon is super serious and intent on winning, in a way that implies this is the norm for them. (bran i, agot)

not just summer, but shaggy and grey wind also howl in mourning when bran's in his coma. robb opens the window in bran's room so bran can "hear them sing." (catelyn iii, agot)

when bran hears the wolves howling again he worries it means somethings happened to one of his siblings. (bran i, acok)

jon and arya are so in tune they'd regularly speak in unison. (jon ii, agot; arya i, asos; arya i, acok; jon iii, agot)

jon and robb building a "great mountain" of snow to dump on whoever walks under the gate, even getting mance fucking rayder to be their accomplice, and then getting chased around the yard by their poor victim fat tom until their faces are "red as autumn apples." (jon i, asos)

rickon immediately asking if robb's coming home upon seeing a letter from him and upon being told no tells maester luwin to write robb back and tell him to come home and bring grey wolf and their parents back too. (bran v, acok)

the fact rickon specifically mentions he should bring grey wind back too, because we saw him playing with grey wind, summer, and shaggydog when his siblings were all gone or busy. they were basically his only friends for a time. (bran iv, agot)

when tyrion leaves to head back to winterfell, jon tells him that rickon will ask when he's coming back and to try explain it to him, and also adds to tell him he can have all his stuff while he's gone, which is just such cute little sibling thing, but also shows how even then jon thinks of the night's watch as being away; winterfell is still his home that he'll come back to one day.

he also tells tyrion to tell robb that he can melt down his sword and take up needlework because jon's going to command the night's watch and keep him safe. and of course, his pleas for tyrion to find a way to help bran are what lead tyrion to give bran his new saddle. (jon iii, agot)

despite his mistrust of tyrion and the lannisters, robb offers to let tyrion stay at winterfell after he sees how much his gift means to bran. (bran iv, agot)

robb no longer believing the direwolves were sent by the old gods after bran and rickon were believed dead, because what was the point of a gift from the gods if it didn't keep his brothers safe? (catelyn ii, asos)

bran going to the godswood to pray that robb doesn't have to leave and then adding if he does to have to leave to make it so he comes home with their sisters and parents and that rickon will understand what's happening. (bran vi, agot)

when jon and sansa remember robb after his death they both picture him with snowflakes melting in his hair, the way he was when they left winterfell. (jon xiii, adwd; sansa viii, asos)

when seeing sam off, the last thing jon says is for sam to put his hood up because the snow's melting in his hair, and sam notes the strange smile on his face when he says it. (samwell i, affc)

bran arguing lord hornwood's son out of wedlock should be named his heir, thinking of jon. (bran ii, acok)

robb being so upset when catelyn compares jon to theon that grey wind hops onto the crypt and bares his teeth at her. (catelyn v, asos)

jon wondering if ever really had any right to call arya his sister, saying he was as out of place as theon at winterfell. (jon iii, asos)

just... the contrast of jon thinking about sansa, and how since she became old enough to understand what a bastard is she's only ever referred to him as her "half-brother", but he misses her anyways... and sansa missing jon while living as alayne, calling him the only brother that remains to her and thinking "i'm a bastard too now, just like him." (jon iii, agot; alayne ii, affc)

robb also calling jon the only brother who remains to him. arya calling jon the only brother she has left. (catelyn v, asos; arya xii, asos)

rickon crying and refusing to leave bran until he's physically forced off. (bran vii, acok)

every word of this sentence shatters me: "every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; snow and stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see." (jon xii, asos)

ok now the angsty part

like! jon is having this flashback because he feels guilty and conflicted over stannis's offer to legitimize him and name him heir to winterfell, never knowing that's exactly what robb wanted.

(jon xii, asos)

(catelyn v, asos)

he keeps remembering robb calling him a bastard as a mental chastisement for daring to put himself on their level, but one of robb's very last acts on earth was to name him jon stark!! bran wanted lord hornwood's illegitimate son to be allowed to succeed him because of jon!! jon doesn't think he counts as arya's brother. but he's the one she misses the most, the only one whose unconditional love she never doubts!! jon!!!

(jon xi, asos)

and yet! despite all the shame and guilt, the thing that ultimately stops him from accepting stannis's offer is his belief that the old gods sent the stark siblings their direwolves, and he can't betray his family's gods! that's what makes his decision, above all else!

(jon xii, asos)

[esther-dot]

Was gonna do a poll then realized that with how often this has been mischaracterized as show bs by the rest of the fandom, we might want to run through some of the book hints for Sansa being the girl in grey first. So…

The one thing we know about Sansa's future is that she will find her way to Winterfell. ASOS features a prophecy telling us so:

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." (ASOS, Arya VIII) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. [...] She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll's head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she'd done he laughed. "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls." (ASOS, Sansa VII)

Doesn't make her the grey girl, but it’s fun that we’re told she’s going North via prophecy, and Jon is told a sister is coming North via prophecy. I’m sure it means nothing.

We have a quote which points to a reunion between Sansa and Jon by virtue of her moment of despair being a prelude for her wish coming true (there are no heroes/Edd, fetch me a block…wait a sec, that involves Jon too???):

Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise. (AFFC, Alayne II)

More & meta links under the cut (I kept it as short as possible, promise!)

Obviously, the reunion could happen after Jon has retaken Winterfell, except we have this line which indicates a Stark will be present for that:

Battles had been fought at Winterfell before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. (ADWD, Jon VII)

We also have breadcrumbs leading North for Sansa by @istumpysk :

"I never knew a wolf to run up a streambed for miles," said Reek. "A man might. If he knew he was being hunted, he might. But a wolf?" - Theon IV, ACOK x The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. - Bran II, ASOS x If Dontos and this northern girl helped murder our sweet king, it seems to me that they would want to put as many leagues as they could betwixt themselves and justice. Look for them in Oldtown, if you must, or across the narrow sea. Look for them in Dorne, or on the Wall. Look elsewhere. - Brienne II, AFFC x Or would she seek her own blood instead? Though all of her siblings had been slain, Brienne knew that Sansa still had an uncle and a bastard half brother on the Wall, serving in the Night's Watch. Another uncle, Edmure Tully, was a captive at the Twins, but his uncle Ser Brynden still held Riverrun. And Lady Catelyn's younger sister ruled the Vale. Blood calls to blood. Sansa might well have run to one of them. Which one, though? - Brienne II, AFFC) [link for much more + a map)

And most importantly, in the vision itself we have a hint that the girl is Sansa, as noted by @starwarsprincess1986

[link]

We even have a tentative travel timeline thanks to @aegor-bamfsteel [link]

Some fans believe Alys or Jeyne is the girl in grey, but neither girl’s path fits with Mel’s vision:

GRRM has the map for a reason, in order go along with the story and where everyone is at in the chapters. FArya is coiming from Stannis’ camp in Crofters’ Village, which is  located in the wolfswood west of Winterfell, on the west side of the kingsroad and on the wrong side of Long Lake. Whereas Alys Karstark was coming from Karhold, which is located on the east side of the North, but it’s no where near Long Lake. This makes neither girl the one Melisandre saw in the flames. [link]

That's a good argument that neither Jeyne nor Alys is who Mel saw, and paired with GRRM’s widely noted thing for the number three, it’s pretty compelling:

Then there’s the GRRM rule of 3s; who the characters think it is, who the audience thinks it is, and who it actually is that has been foreshadowed all along. Jon’s other sister he knows was in a forced marriage has barely been on his radar. by @aegor-bamfsteel [link]

Also, Sansa is Ned’s narrative heir which would explain why Martin would want to write her return North as an echo of her father’s journey home after the rebellion as detailed by @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir [link]

Of course, we have parallels from Jon’s side too. As many fans have noted, Jon getting murdered when he’s wanting to save a sister can be read as a callback to Brandon, but Jon dealing with a prophecy that’s eating away at him makes for an interesting parallel to his father. In both instances, for Brandon and Rhaegar, it is not any girl, but a Stark girl who is central to the matter. In fact, Sansa has specific parallels with Lyanna, and if she is the girl in grey, it would mean she and Lyanna both flee from an unwanted marriage and meet with a Targ which interestingly enough allows the conversation that Jon’s story is having with pre-canon Targ and Stark men to continue. He might save his “sister” where Brandon could not, and where his father spirited the Stark girl far away to a place she ultimately died, Jon will return his Stark girl safely home.

[Elaboration on the Sansa and Lyanna parallels in this tag and in a recent post by @julibf ]

There’s also the succession issue which both Jon and Sansa’s story have prominently featured with LF wanting to use Sansa to claim the North and Stannis wanting to use Jon, and of course, both are significant in the debate about Robb’s will which will create a fun wrinkle:

There is a conflict between them too - until they learn that Bran and Rickon are alive they both are kinda heirs of Starks and Winterfell, both are ruler coded since AGOT and their political strengths complement each other's weaknesses. Moreover, both can support each other's claim. Sansa Stark while being legitimate heir in many lords eyes is still married to Lannister and everyone knows it and she is also a girl who doesn't know how to wage a war. On the other hand Jon Snow even with Stark blood printed on his Ned Stark (who is still beloved in the North) face is still a bastard and can't interfere with claim of legitimate heirs (given that Robb's will is still unknown). One of them on his/her own can raise a lot of questions but two can make a decent claim. by @asoiaf-essays-collector [link]

All of this set up is wasted if they are not both feasible options (in the North) for the Northern Lords to back, allowing the political drama to unfold. (And then imagine when Bran and/or Rickon shows up alive!)

I’d argue this bit hints that the girl in grey will not only make an appearance, but will have real significance to Jon’s story beyond Alys’ brief appearance:

[link]

There’s also the the possibility of Jon post assassination being a play on “the Stranger,” and Sansa a “silent sister” to consider:

[link]

And I can’t do a recap of this theory without acknowledging The Meta. Written all the way back in 2013, this post predicted that Jon and Sansa would not only reunite but reunite first of all the Starks:

If one believes in dramatic irony, it is that thoughtlessness in regards to each other....that gives them the best chances of being the first (if not only) Starks to reunite. [link]

So, is Sansa the girl in grey?

Feel free to add on additional arguments and/or your favorite bits of evidence. I’ll post a poll in a few days!

[alaynestcnes]

finally finished my asos reread. i forgot how diabolical the last chapters are like what do you mean we get deeply introspective jon admitting to his desires for winterfell and lordship and children and comparing ghost to a weirwood and ‘he belonged to the old gods, this one’ and then denying all his desires bc winterfell belongs to the old gods too (and later these thoughts will become the declaration ‘winterfell belongs to my sister sansa’) and he chooses to deny his claim bc his love for the starks supersedes everything and then thinks of val up in her tower ‘i am not the man to steal you out of there’ (continuing his self denial and denying himself the role of the romantic hero) and then immediately he’s raised up to lord commander and then next chapter we get sansa as a bastard (their swapped social positions are full circle now) abruptly waking up to snowfall and being drawn to the yard that was meant to be a godswood but no weirwood can take root and ‘the eyrie was no home’ and ‘a godswood without gods, as empty as me’ and ‘she stepped out all the same’ and then the snow is like lovers kisses and like innocence and dreams and she literally rebuilds winterfell out of snow but her momentary peace is shattered by ‘dawn stealing into her garden like a thief’ and men who only want her for her beauty and claim and then she’s almost thrown out of a tower (later she will think of Jon explicitly for the first time since book 1). like oh my goddddd

[ai-manre]

The way that characters keep accusing Jon of fucking someone just because he's kind and open-minded and wants to protect people...

Sam:

Jon drew his longsword. He dared defy Ser Alliser only to a point, and he feared he was well beyond it now.

Thorne smiled. "The Bastard wishes to defend his lady love, so we shall make an exercise of it. Rat, Pimple, help our Stone Head here." Rast and Albett moved to join Halder. "Three of you ought to be sufficient to make Lady Piggy squeal. All you need do is get past the Bastard." - Jon IV, AGOT

The plan was Chett's. He was the clever one; he'd been steward to old Maester Aemon for four good years before that bastard Jon Snow had done him out so his job could be handed to his fat pig of a friend. When he killed Sam Tarly tonight, he planned to whisper, "Give my love to Lord Snow," right in his ear before he sliced Ser Piggy's throat open to let the blood come bubbling out through all those layers of suet. - Prologue, ASOS

Melisandre:

Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whispering in the barracks tonight. - Jon I ADWD

Alys:

"A wildling. A filthy, murdering wildling." Cregan's hands closed into fists. The gloves that covered them were leather, lined with fur to match the cloak that hung matted and stiff from his broad shoulders. His black wool surcoat was emblazoned with the white sunburst of his house. "I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first?" - Jon X, ADWD

Satin:

Ser Malegorn stepped forward. "I will escort Her Grace to the feast. We shall not require your … steward." The way the man drew out the last word told Jon that he had been considering saying something else. Boy? Pet? Whore? - Jon X, ADWD

Val:

"Easily remedied." Florent's smile was so false that it looked painful. "Where is she, Lord Snow? Have you moved her to one of your other castles? Greyguard or the Shadow Tower? Whore's Burrow, with t'other wenches?" He leaned close. "Some say you have her tucked away for your own pleasure. It makes no matter to me, so long as she is not with child. I'll get my own sons on her. If you've broken her to saddle, well … we are both men of the world, are we not?" - Jon X, ADWD

The watch is constantly whispering and gossiping about his sexual deviant tastes because he's?? Nice and kind to people?? Irrelevant of who they are??