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revive-the-fandom · 11 months ago

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The Dragon Hunters

First, to cover everything we learned of the Hunters excluding Johann's involvement:

The Hunters have been around for "generations" which according to wiki is 20 - 30 years per generation, making the hunters at least 40 years old, likely older. We know this because Ingar Ingerman's techniques have been used by Hunters for "generations".

(The fact that Fishlegs is unaware of Ingar's existence implies that he was either ancient, and "generations" refers to great-great grandparents or older, or that Fishleg's family broke away and purposefully forgot/didn't teach/lied to their children of their true family origin)

This age of the Hunters was also implied by Viggo, whose grandfather is mentioned as being either Hunter or Hunter adjacent many times in the series. Him playing as the Marauder and not the Viking Chief in Maces and Talons also suggests that he was a Hunter.

Making the age of the Dragon Hunters closer to 80 years. This is calculated using the average age for Httyd Vikings having children being 25 (Valka was 20, Stoick was 30 their average is 25, Hiccup and Astrid were both 25 when Zephyr was born) + Ryker and Viggo (the youngest known generation) being at least 30 or older.

This also makes Viggo a nepo baby/inheritor of the Hunter's legacy/throne/chiefdom etc rather than simply the best tactition there (this is of course, ignoring that Ryker is actually first in line as it seems that until RTTE he was happy for Viggo to take charge, possibly even waiving his claim for Viggo - or in a less happy circumstance, was forced to waive the chiefdom by his parents/grandfather).

as for the dragon eye:

it's belonged to Viggo's tribe for centuries, and Viggo feels slighted by the loss of it. So we know that this is personal to Viggo's family/tribe regardless as to whether Viggo's tribe is the Dragon Hunters, is what became the Dragon Hunters, or if it was only the ancestors of a few Dragon Hunters (Ryker and Viggo).

This brings the possible age of the Hunters up to 200 - 300 years, as long as Berk has been settled/fighting Dragons. Or this is just their origin, when Viggo's clan settling in the region before becoming full blown Hunters.

we also know that Viggo knows the ins and outs of the Dragon Eye's construction, more so than even Ryker.

so it's possible that this information was passed down through the leadership of the Hunters, or more specifically, to the inheritor of Viggo's tribe's chiefdom. Both suggest that Viggo's grandfather may have been the one to impart this knowledge onto Viggo, as we also have the implication that Viggo inherited his intelligence (and love for Maces and Talons) from his grandfather.

The Dragon Eye going missing also seems to imply that the Hunters were felled/disbanded/forced into exile at some point, and Viggo and Ryker are only just now restoring them from the ground up - possibly in their grandfather's name. This is also where ym headcanon that Viggo at least used to live in/grew up in York/Jorvik comes from, as it would explain his english accent (ok, in the context of the show.. not real life as this accent wouldnt exist).

we also get a little insight into why the Hunters had this dark age/disbandment through Viggo's fall from power - the Grimborn's have no loyalty/regard for others and a short violent temper:

and viggo's focus on only his own pride

which is more than likely what killed them - the people rising up or abandoning them. which is technically what happened to Viggo, both through Ryker's betrayal, and the Hunters leaving him for dead.

Ryker's betrayal makes more sense when considering that he was the people's man.

the Hunter's purpose, why they exist as a group, is to earn money. there is also additional themes of conquering the unconquerable, power and control, and genuine service to a people threatened by beasts.

The Hunters may have originally formed as a warrior group that worked as a sort of pest control, their methods for dragon killing are better and more refined than any other villain we see in the series, including the movies and grimmel as the movie villains seem more interested and successful in capturing and forcing dragons into a slave army than they ever are in killing anything.

the Hunters may then have begun using, or even spearheaded the use of dragon parts in clothing, materials, weapons etc. which might have earned them more money than pest control, leading to them using auctions and markets as their primary source of income.

their use of dragon root seems to be standard knowledge + practicality as Berk knows what dragon root is they just didn't refine it or use it in the same way.

their ships are confusing as they're mulltihull ships that are more in line with what Drago sails than what the vikings sail. this is confusing as Drago's ships are destinctive because he comes from elsewhere in the world and has travelled far to reach Berk. the Hunters ships seem to be stolen from Drago's fleet. perhaps suggesting a raid or battle, or even defection - but this doesnt fit with Krogan's arrival and their attitude towards their "buyer" (Drago).

To me the ships seem to be a bit of an oversight. an inconsistency that wasnt supposed to be thought about because they were just recycling assets (in the same way that Ryker is a recycled Drago design).

so s4 ends with the death of the Hunters in Shell Shocked: Viggo and Ryker are fighting each other and the majority of the Hunters have fled to Ryker's side (he is the people's man after all). Ryker is killed, viggo is injured presumed dead, the Hunters are all but destroyed (again)

months go by and Krogan gathers up the remnants of the Hunters and forces them (penalty of death) to become his flyers.

Krogan's motivations are to bring success to Drago, in rtte's instance this seems to be through providing a Bewilderbeast for Drago.

Krogan seems to have thought that the Hunters are his best bet for finding a bewilderbeast, or gathering the resources to do it himself. He's known as a big buyer by Viggo and Ryker, so has only met them briefly if at all. He seems to have scoped out the Hunters in Auction Heroes and Midnight Scrum and decided that Viggo and Ryker are below him.

Krogan then apporaches Viggo and explains how he's usurped the Hunters and trained his flyers.

Krogan then offers Viggo the resources to recover the Dragon Eye from the volcano so that Viggo can keep ahold of his tribal artefact and potentially rebuild his empire, in return for his help in finding and capturing the King of Dragons/Bewilderbeast. Krogan gets access to Viggo's intelligence, and Viggo gets access to Krogan's resources.

Viggo's motivation seems to remain power, wealth and pride.

Viggo and Krogan crucially neglect to follow Ryker's example, they don't care for their men or armies, which ultimately leads to their downfall yet again:

Viggo obviously has his epiphany moment where his worldview is flipped and he learns to respect dragons, perhaps as a reflection on his relationship with his brother, and how his brother chose companionship and loyalty over wealth and power.

Krogan's armies are repeatedly defeated via their singetails not being loyal to the flyers.

Viggo dies as part of his redemption and Krogan is murdered for not realising his.

which explains the Hunters and everything we know about them excluding Johann. but now lets add Johann into the picture:

given all we know of the Hunters and the implications from Viggo that he inherited the leader position or revitalised it, it's unlikely that Johann was the "true" leader or secretly the leader of the Hunters. That position remains with Viggo and Ryker.

and we know that Krogan is both working for Drago and has usurped the Hunters through force. so Johann has no part in that either.

Johann himself says that he's paying them, so there's no loyalty to him outside of money.

there's so many issues with Johann so let's just start with his statements in In Plain Sight

Johann reveals his motivation is to find the King of Dragons which he believes is the key to his wealth and power

so all Johann wants is power and money, which he thinks the King of Dragons will get him. it's unclear if Johann plans to sell the bewilderbeast to Krogan (who gives it to Drago) or if he's oblivious to Krogan's motivations and just thinks he's there for the gold he's paying him.

I think it might be the latter because in King of Dragons Krogan betrays him twice, attempting to kill him. first by not warning him to dodge the bewilderbeasts ice, and then by stealing the egg and fleeing and leaving Johann to fight the bewilderbeast and hiccup and toothless alone.

Johann claims to have been working against the riders since Breakneck Bog

which happens in the first ever season, Riders of Berk, and is only Johann's second appearance, which I believe is an oversight from the writers as his first appearance 8 episodes prior had him sell poisonous flowers to Mildew who poisoned the dragons on Berk. was he not also behind that? that was actually much more villainous than Breakneck bog as he spent that episode begging them not to go there, stranded at sea, and then he loses all of his wares and gold.

this tirade against the Riders is more suspicous as his third appearance has him sneak the Berkians onto Outcast Island to rescue Hiccup.

his fourth has him stuck in a frozen sea, rescued by Hiccup and Toothless and then stranded on Berk with the speed stingers until the ice thaws.

his fifth has him sell smokebreath infested metal to Berk from Dagur. which, again, is more villainous that Breakneck Bog as it destroys Berk's armoury and comes directly from Dagur.

Johann also facilitated Dagur's escape, but, once again got stranded at sea. it makes you wonder just how good of a swimmer he is to have this much trust in his plans to incorporate getting stranded this many times.

these two I have less complaints about in the "bad plan" department but they do cause some bumps with the "when did Johann ally the Hunters" question.

His speech to Hiccup, mentioning Breakneck Bog, suggests that he's been involved since Riders of Berk, when they were 15 - 16 yros. but his reaction to Viggo and Viggo's reaction to him in Last Auction Heroes is extremely weird if this is true:

theres no need for any of these theatrics if they're in league with each other. if they are in league with each other here then Viggo should either be expecting Johann, and understand that the Riders are likely plotting something. or he should have some sort of communication with Johann that suggests they know each other, or that Johann can't talk freely else he'll blow his cover.

the way this scene in Auction Heroes plays out makes it seem as though Viggo has no idea who Johann is, and that Johann is still playing the long game by being deep undercover.

so when did Johann and Viggo actually join up?

I believe Dagur joined sometime around Have Dragon Will Travel as that's when he gets the dragon proof metal, which is associated with the Hunters alone.

Heather likely joined soon after.

but Johann doesn't seem to start acting suspicious or in league with the Hunters until s5, in Sandbusted. as his last appearance in s4 is Dire Straits, where he is the only survivor and near victim of the submarriper.

if he was in league with the Hunters at this point, why would he sail directly over the submapripper, planted specifically by the Hunters. if he was in league he could have just watched from a distance to check it was working, or have the Hunters themselves check.

Sandbusted has him send the Riders on a mission to find what's killing the merchants (sandbuster) which could easily be a trap set by him to separate the riders and get them killed off (hiccup specifically).

Dawn of Destruction has him separate Hiccup and Astrid from the Riders and the Edge immediately before the flyers attack. which also works perfectly fine for someone in league with them.

everything in s5 works towards the plot twist that Johann is secretly working with Viggo and Krogan. so it seems most likely that Johann joined between s4 and s5, after Ryker's death and the Hunters disbandment. He may even have paid Krogan to build the flyers and recruit Viggo to help him track down the King of Dragons.

He would need Krogan to bring skill and ruthlessness and to be a leader more interested in the results than the game. Viggo to bring his knowledge, experience and most importantly the Dragon Eye to track down the King of Dragons.

This would explain why Johann seems so out of the loop in Dire Straits and Auction Heroes, as he wouldn't have been allied or privy to the Hunter's plans. and he would still be undercover from Viggo and the Hunters as a whole.

His actions prior to this, such as Riders, Defenders, and Have Dragon Will Travel were likely his own plans, independent of anyone else's influence (and yes, i still think they're stupid plans as he ends up stranded at sea, losing massive swaths of his wealth which we have established is his entire motivation, and needed rescues from dragons a fucking lot).

the outlier here that I struggle to fit in is Edge of Disaster, as he pulls the Riders away from the Edge right as the Hunters attack. this happens in s2, long before he theoretically join in s5.

my best guess is that the Hunters, possibly with Dagur or Heather's help, were trying to use Johann as a distraction. Johann, being intelligent and hating the Riders might have seen this opportunity and "fallen" for the Hunter's trap/distraction - this might have involved the Hunters herding him towards the Dragon Nest.

However, this doesn't explain why Johann wouldn't blame the Hunters for forcing him into the Dragon's path, as it would take the blame/suspicion off of him for writing to Hiccup that he was under attack by the Hunters.

so to recap:

the Hunters likely evolved from Viggo and Ryker's clan, they may have stolen their multihull ship design from a section of Drago's army at some point. the Dragon Eye was created and their grandfather likely held a chief/leader position before the original Hunters were destroyed, likely because of the Grimborn's lack of loyalty to their crew and/or family. The Dragon Eye was lost and the Hunters disbanded, Viggo and Ryker ending up miles from home, possibly Jorvik.

Viggo and Ryker re-establish the Hunters, with Ryker giving Viggo the leadership role. They pick up allies in the Archipelago, Dagur most predominantly, followed by Heather, who recount to them that the Dragon Eye has been found and is being held by the Riders.

Viggo and Ryker then begin their war with the Riders, but Viggo falls into the same trap his ancestors did and forgets to value his crew or family. Ryker usurps the Hunters with the crew's support, but it ends in disaster and Ryker is killed, the Dragon Eye lost and Viggo injured.

Johann realises the potential of the Hunters now that they've disbanded and pays Krogan to recruit Viggo to use the Dragon Eye and rebuild the Hunters (under Krogan's command) to find and sell the King of Dragons.

or at least, that's the best that I can understand the Hunters?

#httyd #rtte #dragon hunters #viggo grimborn #ryker grimborn #trader johann #krogan

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