#joe going back to ming is joe's choice not sol's choice

[vegaseatsass]

Ah I have to not be online for a few hours but I want to write so much more about Sol My Stand-In when I come back. I just feel like so much of fandom is sleeping on how actually dimensional and interesting and human he is! Maybe because a lot of us have Nice Guy baggage it's intuitive to transplant onto him, but that's not actually what's happening here... i m o

[heretherebedork]

The best growth we've seen from Ming is the press conference. And it was beautiful.

The last time Joe had a press conference about a role with Sol... Ming was manipulated into keeping him away at all costs and ended up kidnapping him, ended up destroying him, ended up losing him.

And this time? Instead?

He's the one who sets up a chance for him to walk between Sol and Joe and give Joe a whole bunch of roses while Sol looks on.

He's the one who makes sure that Joe gets all the accolades and all the praised and gets to shine bright in front of everyone.

Ming has learned. He's so careful this time. He's in love and he's going to show it the only way he can.

But what it truly brought to my mind?

It's been two years. Ming knows the mistake he made.

How many times has he dreamed of this? How many dreams has Ming woken from in a cold sweat about bringing a bouquet to Joe's premiere only to wake up knowing that he didn't do that?

How many bouquets did he imagine while he was dreaming of having Joe back? How many times did he imagine the press conference where Joe would accept the role and the movie he had paid for so Joe could live out his dream? How many times did he imagine placing that bouquet in his warm arms and getting Joe to smile for him?

And now he did it. This time, this time, he made the choice that supported Joe. And, even after that, he offered him everything. Promised him the world even if Joe doesn't believe it yet.

It's growth. It's support. It's love.

It's the first time that Ming hasn't just tried to recreate the past but rather to change it. To create a different future.

[babyangelsky]

After not touching the game for like three years, I suddenly got inspired to recreate Joe's house in the Sims 4. It's not perfect but it's as close as I could get with what I have available to me.

And it was gonna be just a fun little thing but then I just kept having thoughts and Joe's house suddenly became fascinating to me.

There's something almost gothic about what this house has become to Ming and even Sol, although to a lesser extent. It reminds me of Manderley in Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca in that it's almost a character in itself.

Ming has been cooking for himself and for Joe in it for two years but it's so much more than that. When Joe broke in during the last episode, he was able to navigate it just the same as always because every little thing is in the exact same place, just the way he left it. Ming hasn't moved or touched anything and I suspect the mere notion of doing that would be unthinkable to him.

He uses the bowls Joe bought for them. Their matching pillowcases are still on the bed. Even the key is in the same place because what if Joe comes back?

Hell, Ming--who looks about as far from a plant person as it's possible to be--has kept all of Joe's plants alive and thriving for two years. And there are a lot of fucking plants! I know! I placed them in my recreation!

For Sol's part, the thought of someone breaking in is absolutely appalling to him, never mind that he's doing the same damn thing himself. His word choice is so telling when he happens upon who he thinks is a random thief.

"How dare you break into this house? Do you know whose house this is?"

Of course a random ass thief wouldn't know or care! But Sol says it because he cares, because it's so much more than just a house to him. It's Joe's house. It's the place filled with Joe's things, art Joe picked, the floor where Joe walked, the bed Joe slept in, and how dare anyone break in to this sacred place?

Which I strongly suspect is exactly how Ming is going to feel when he finds out Sol let himself in next week. Because the house is all the same things to Ming that it is to Sol, with an added giant layer of it being the house he shared with Joe, where they loved each other and were happy until his bullshit sent everything to hell in a hand basket.

Joe's house is a cathedral and a mausoleum and a shrine and it's all of Ming's hope and all of Sol's regret and it's FASCINATING.

[miss0atae]

Ming’s coercive control in My Stand-In (Ep 4)

First of all, and before saying anything else, I also wanted to say, I don’t know anything about psychology and I may make mistakes in this post when using some terms. If you know a better way of saying it, don’t hesitate to tell me. I’m still learning everyday.

The return of the prodigal son ! Ming was not too nice in episode 3, but he wasn't at his prime. In this episode we saw again how he is trying to regain the control in his relationship with Joe. Unfortunately, he lost it by the end of episode 3 when he drunkenly admitted his feelings for Tong to Joe, breaking up the poor man's heart at the same time. Joe decided to break up with Ming because of it.

However, Ming doesn't want to accept it and he decided to go to his workplace to threaten him. Ming has decided he is not going to listen to what Joe has to say because he must decide. He made his decision and he is going to stay with him, no matter what.

Firstly, he is using emotional blackmail again, by telling Joe it was his idea to ask him to move in and telling him now to move out, isn't really nice. His idea here is to put the guilt in Joe. The guilt trip was already used in episode 2.

When Joe didn't let him do it like he previously did, you can see how Ming felt cornered. Joe knows about Ming's crush for Tong and he wanted him to understand he is not a second choice. He tried to make Ming see how Tong will not be with him. Ming reacted with explosive anger and told him it's his personal stuff. Let's not forget in episode 2 how he told Joe that one of the two conditions to be together was that they never mess with each other's privacy. In this episode, he wanted to dismiss Joe's accusation by reminding him of this.

However, this time it didn't work because Joe was set on stopping this relationship. So Ming again used threat to force Joe outside of the workplace and make him go back in the house where he can persuade him more easily. The evidence being that in Joe's work there are too many people who can intervene, such as Sol or Wut.

When Joe came back home, he tried to use verbal abuse. It is shown in a delivery of a statement intended to frighten him when he told Joe, he will never find a better boyfriend.

Since it didn't get him what he wanted, he tried a form of positive reinforcement. Ming apologizes and showed a vulnerability he always tried to hide. He asked Joe to start again so they can go back to what they were before Joe asked for a break up. He wanted to bring back the memories of their “happy time” and he also did some love bombing by asking him about this love Joe has for him. This time Ming got close to Joe and hugged him. The intimate embrace is also a way of showing what he wants to get again from Joe.

But when everything failed, Ming decided he can use physical aggression and lock Joe. I'm amazed about how he did it without thinking twice. He also made sure to bring Joe somewhere else so no one would find him. Is Ming really aware of how possessive he is and how unhealthy it can be?

But in the end, it's fascinating to see how Ming can't really understand his own feeling for Joe. Does he love him or does he care for him because it's the first person who truly gives him everything, just like his sister? This is so different from what he has with Tong. It is also because he doesn't really love Tong… He idolizes him. It's this fantasy he created in his mind while Joe is real. Ming doesn't know what to do and he lost Joe before really processing all of this.

[kennyomegasweave]

We are 9 episodes in on My Stand In and I'm still hissing at my screen every time Sol shows up.

That man was really out here ranting and raving and being all WHY AREN'T YOU GUYS MAD about Ming as if he was the one being wronged like Joe didn't whole ass watch his damn body be cremated the day before. He really thinks he a main character and he's not even the possible second choice love interest.

Like he really dragged Joe away while he was calling for Ming and then told Joe to snap out of it cause Ming doesn't love him. Good to see he's still willing to physically drag Joe away from things he doesn't like, no matter what Joe wants, even in his second life.

He also has the audacity to be out here refusing to read the damn room and see that Joe looks uncomfortable AF anytime he drops a random "I care about you so much" line because it's not needed nor appreciated. He smooth brought Joe into his press conference to call him his boyfriend! And we all know good and damn well Joe wouldn't have agreed to that.

And then he was out here trying to fight Ming at the afterparty saying he doesn't give a fuck knowing good and damn well it would be Joe's ass if a public fight happened because he is the most unknown of the unknowns, while Ming's family is wealthy and Sol is, at the very least, semi-famous.

He's just always talking mad shit about how Ming is terrible and how he wants to save Joe from him and blah blah, but then he's instigating fights with Ming left and right. And personally, if I knew my friend was with a shitty man, I wouldn't keep antagonizing that man knowing my friend is the one who's dealing with the consequences every time. But I would actually want better for my friend because I care about them as a person and not as an ideal image I built in my head of someone I want to date. And that is clearly where Sol and I differ.

Like Ming is a delusional asshole, no argument there, but Sol is a Nice Guy and nah. I want him GONE. Let him go back to Korea and get some dick there. Cause he's not an option for Joe, nor was he ever at any point during this show, yet he really thinks he has relevancy here. Ming is better than me (or more insecure) cause I would have long since told Sol you don't compare when you don't compete.

[katerinaptrv]

My thesis - Joe had already decided to be together with Ming last ep way before the other brought them to the house

Is my believe Joe already made his decision to stop resisting Ming and be together with him again, way before the ending. And this is why he just went along without any conflict in the last scene.

Here let me explain my POV.

He starts the episode conflicted, Ming's been avoiding him, and he does not know how to feel about this, he is scared he will pull away and missing him. But at the same time he feels like he should feel happy things are going this direction because it is the most safe way for them both.

The main conflict for him in these first scenes, is Ming wants past Joe, and Joe sees as he isn't that, he does not see how he can be, how can he ever believe him?

He was scared where Ming's obsession with finding his past self would lead them, and scared about always being a replacement for him.

This is why he insists on his death, he wants Ming's to accept it, because for him is the only way for them to move forward.

Next we see him go to the cemitery to see this parents.

Now, i find what he speaks to them very interesting and revealing in where his mind is at, he first apologizes of not taking care of his original body but then he continues:

But yeah, right now, I'm still alive. And there are people i need to take care. So all i can do is ... the best i can do.

People, not only his mother, people. And who was Joe taking care of everytime he could even if he did not have to since he came back:

So all i can do is ... the best i can do.

Here is his first step to accepting, here he is starting to accept he will go back with Ming, in his new body, maybe the other never realizing who he really is. With all the complications this sure will bring, but he still conflicted.

Wut and Sol find out, and that brings up the next scenes, because he is still conflicted in his decision. Sol would probably treat him way better than Ming, should he considered, he knew who he was now, wasn't that better?

But he stills stay firm even in his doubts answering Son's offer to free him from Ming with:

I choose this, I choose him now, knowing everything and it is my mistake and responsibility.

The next scene is the end of his doubts, he makes the final decision after and is sticking with it. He asks his mother about the husband she lost, saying he died so early if you could come back would she have chosen someone else?

This is the Sol conflict being resolved right there, he asking her if he should choose someone better, someone safe, even if it isn't who he wants and who he loves.

And she answers him:

And that makes it final for him, Sol isn't Ming, he was never a choice for him, no one his heart would choose it.

And that leaves to the final scenes, he confronts Ming's brother unafraid (he already died, how will he threaten him?), he is hesitant in going to the house, but not about Ming, not anymore. Joe wants them to bury the past, he wants to move forward and that where his hesitance there come from. It disappears when Ming's kisses him and moves to get intimate with him, he is not hesitant about that, he already made this decision.

So yeah, the finding of the body will sure bring some drama, but I don't see having much impact on Joe's decision. I think it will affect Ming's resolve, being confronted with the reality of consequences of his past actions. Joe might have to forcefully make him confront the now, not the past.

Depending on the state (dead or alive), will sure bring some supernational questioning.

[bengiyo]

My Stand In Ep 2 Stray Thoughts

Last week, we met Joe, our stuntman protagonist with a terminal case of Bottom Dementia. He is the primary stuntman and stand in for a popular actor named Tong. He met Ming, a younger friend of Tong that has been secretly pining after Tong for years. Ming mistakes Joe for Tong and begins to pursue him, and the toxic yaoi began. We know that in the future Joe dies in a stunt accident and wakes up in the body of another guy named Joe (not confusing at all) and goes back to work at the same company. We left at Ming possibly recognizing Joe by his back again.

Joe, baby boy, if he can't remember fucking you this is a huge warning.

Joe sneezes when he has an orgasm? I really hope Ming remembers this when he inevitably fucks Wahl!Joe.

Joe, asking to tag along with you so he can see another man is another warning.

Keeping it on the DL is also suspect! Joe, it's so painful watching you when I know you're only going to make bad choices!

This Tong guy seems very difficult to work with. Leaving his costar alone to drown is super unsubtle as a metaphor.

Joe, he is flirting with another man in front of you, who is the guy you are asked to resemble.

Joe, he was just flirting with Tong and now he's jealous of you possibly having feelings for other people! He's mad at you for picking up on the flirting. Get out of there.

There's a lot of use of reflections in this episode. If one of you writes about it, please tag me.

Now, Joe, do not take your frustrations out on the other stuntmen.

Does Ming's mom not know he's gay?

I like this girl. She seems pragmatic.

JOE, YOU ARE EMBARRASSING! Why would you flirt like that??

No lube in a bathroom? Oh, BL.

I don't like the "Then stop me" thing Ming keeps doing.

Porsche!!! Welcome back!

I like that Sol wants to reunite because he left on a major misunderstanding, but recognizes that his feelings for Joe are genuine. This conversation about people taking advantage in the industry being a barrier to real connection is fascinating. I hope we see more of Sol, but I doubt Joe sees it.

Okay, legit fuck Ming. Ming showed up hella drunk and Joe took care of him and put him in a bed. Ming beefed with Sol and then dumped Joe on the floor for stinking of alcohol. I do not support these gay wrongs!

Wait are Ming and Joe NOT using condoms??

"You're just a stand-in." Hey, Ming, come outside. We won't jump you.

It's kind of a hilarious casting choice to put Porsche in a show where a gay man has feelings for his sister's boyfriend after his excellent work on You're My Sky. He's not involved in that plotline, but I'm thinking about it.

Well, that was fun, but at least Sol is still breathing.

Joe, are you really saying MING taught you about love? We're giving up on Sol for Ming??

I see. Ming has been very alone for a long time. I see how he became a stuntman.

I respect and support Ming's Lady and the Tramp desires.

I really hope this isn't the last we see of Sol! I feel bad for Joe because it feels like he's not got folks around to push back on Ming's bullshit. They were smart to pick Up for this role because he can make Ming's attempt to treat Joe and play house feel genuine, even if we know it's going to fall apart. Likewise, Phoom does the wounded puppy thing so well. Really impressed with the casting of this show.

[poomphuripan]

thoughts on https://www.tumblr.com/bitacrytic/751139298231844864/we-cant-blame-tong-long-before-he-called-ming-to?source=share 👀👀

Was it mentioned explicitly in the novel?

hi anon 👋

first and foremost, a disclaimer: i gotta preface that i generally don't share most opinions with op but i'm also a novel reader/fan of actor up poompat who plays ming so my opinion may be rather biased so PLEASE just take my opinion with a grain of salt.

okay while i DO think the choice of "using the baseball bat to knock joe unconscious" was a bit extreme from the director's choice, i don't think that ming's action was some evil scheme concocted and prepped ahead of time.

so in terms of the novel, the way it went was that yan ming xiu (ming/ymx) refused to leave so zhou xiang (joe/zx) headed for the door himself. the only thoughts running in ymx mind was that he couldn't let zx go film that movie with lan xi rong (sol/lxr). so ymx tackled zx from the back aggressively and toppled him onto the floor, refusing to let him go, and since they were on the floor, ymx noticed that underdeath the coffee table, there was an old rope that looked like it hadn't been used for years, he quickly grabbed that and tied zx up. that's basically how it went and you can see that ymx was just suddenly powerful to the point he was able to overpower and tie up joe just to stop him from leaving.

now arguably, the series could have done pretty much the same thing but i've seen cfans discussed this headcanon (that i generally agree) that series!ming went with the bat because he knew he couldn't overpower joe so he just grabbed the nearest thing he could to knock him out. considering that joe is a stuntman, i'd imagine he'd be having all sort of sports equipment lying around the house so i wouldn't headcanon that it's some planned evil scheme.

now the house arrest and why does ming have chains lying around in his house? this one i just consider it as a plot hole for purely aesthetic purposes because of course it looks more expensive and shocking for viewers to see joe being chained up as opposed to being tied up with an old rope which would have been more realistic obviously. so i see this as a plot hole rather than reading into this detail to prove whether the house arrest was planned or not.

i think this question is really interesting because i'm actually writing a piece which also touches on the point of how would the breakup had gone if tong/sol never called ming/joe that evening. so thank you for this question op. i hope this answers your question (´▽`ʃ♡ƪ)

and most important, please remember THIS ↓

[bibimbinge]

if it isn't obvious enough, Sol's hair is a reflection of his inner self

Joe 1.0 era

here we got Sol's hair going from pink-magenta to orange-red

He has more than friendly feelings for Joe and he isn't necessarily hiding it either and Pink-Magenta signifies that

In ep 3 where he tells Joe about his feelings, its a tinge more pink (maybe its the lighting, maybe its me reading too much into it who knows) but its still not a fully pink cause imo he knows the feelings isnt mutual so he can't be pink aka too in love cause he'd get hurt and he knows that.

After the fight with Ming, hes mad and what colour is linked with anger? RED! He likes Joe and he really doesn't like this asshole coming in and pushing his friend that hes in love with around.

Joe 2.0 era

I noticed his hair being more of a fiery red when he's mad (whenever he has no choice but to breathe the same air as his nemesis) and a lot duller when he's calm.. just an observation. I'm aware his hair doesnt change colour in the same episode and this is a difference in lighting but roll with me here.. its intentional

are my eyes deceiving me probably or is there a teeny little more pink in his hair after Joe finally tells them who he really is. Sol's love is back and just like it was 2 years ago the pink in his hair is a making a reappearence.

EP 9 where we get a lot of different tones cause Sol (and us) went through a lot of different emotions

Lets play a game called "What is Sol feeling in the following scenes?" *answers below*

With the help of lighting you can tell what he's feeling in the moment.

Pink-magenta is back but its dull - They find Joe 1.0 remains and he feels sad for his Joe. Love + Grieve

Fiery Red - *dinkleberg meme* MING

Pink - some alone time with Joe, his feelings for Joe is 100% back (was it ever gone) and hes being vulnarable with Joe. Talk to me when you're in trouble. I'll be there for you whenever you need support. There's no way I'm letting you go alone this time.

BRIGHT PINK!! - just publicly called Joe aka long time best friend/crush/love of his life, his boyfriend right after they held hands. This is a man proudly showing of his beau (yes its to promote his song and music video but he'll take whatever he can get)

but when Ming steps in and breaks his perfect moment with Joe... well....

unsurprisingly red-orange (at his parting) makes an appearence... uuuuuuuu 🫢🫢

[cornyonmains]

I'm going to be honest, while My Stand In was the BL to beat for me in 2024, I am a little disappointed by how wholesomely things wrapped up.

I'm not in the camp bitching about Tong getting a second chance, because frankly, Ming was horrible too, and blowing Joe's back out doesn't absolve him of sin. I have to distribute my problematic forgiveness evenly. However, I wish they would have worked in the plot point from the book that Tong's dad was actually the one that caused the financial mess, because it would have made that pill easier to swallow if they'd characterized him acting like a prick on behalf of family.

I think my main complaint is I like dark romance. I liked the idea of a plot where the heavens were pushing Joe on this immutable path towards Ming. I liked the idea of the story ending in such a way you had to question whether Joe actually had a choice, or if it only looked like he did.

I also really wanted some closure on how Joe swung his reincarnation. People die in unresolved conflict all the time, but it doesn't happen for them. Why did Joe get a second chance? In The Divine Comedy, which I've written before has a lot of crossover with this property, the character of Beatrice interceded on Dante's behalf to get him on and through his journey. So who the fuck was the Beatrice of it all?

You could argue it's Sol, because Beatrice laments Dante forgetting her and living a life of sin, represented by Ming, who drove Joe off his path and got him lost in the same shadowy woods as Dante, but if that's the case, it makes the wholesome ending tonally incorrect as hell and disappointing.

I didn't want the finale to wrap things up in an after school special bow. I wanted Joe and Ming to end up together, and find that happiness neither of them can find with anyone else. I just wanted the show to keep true to the narrative implication that they were wrapped up in this really dark obsession with each other instigated by a cold and capricious God. Is that too much to ask?

Also, not a fan of the blatant set-up of the side couples in the final episode. Sol and Yim had no justification, and Mike and Jim were alluded to all throughout the season, so the audience didn't need it shoved in their face. I think a lot of this nonsense wouldn't be necessary if they started doing multi-season projects.

Anyways, the show overall, I give it an 8.5/10. Episode 12? 6.5/10. It didn't stick the landing.

[vegaseatsass]

I think my absolute favorite detail of this 52-minute smorgasbord of delectable choices was in Joe's decision montage. First, before he tells Ming to get the fuck out, he flashes back to all his past moments as Tong's stand-in, how awfully that hurt.

Then, as Joe stands there crying alone, he starts flashing through image after image of how badly he needs money for Ing's treatment, and you assume that'll be the rest of the montage: Joe needs money. Joe is thinking about how desperate he is, how he almost said yes, but obviously he's not going to actually say yes, because he needs money, goddammit, but he can't be a stand-in to Ming again. But then, suddenly, sprinkled in there is:

and you realize, oh shit. Oh shit. He is thinking about how it will be different this time. He'll be going in with his eyes wide open. He'll know he's being used. He's thinking about how his heart will be protected. Joe's going to take the job.

It's just such a badass way of showing the character's internal progression: a montage of how much it sucked to be a stand-in, a montage of how badly Ing needs money, and then a montage of but last time, I didn't know, and that was the humiliating thing, that was what left me open to so much hurt.

Now he's heading into a situation where every single piece of evidence Ming gives him that he's completely obsessed with Joe and Joe alone is going to be felt by Joe as weakness and delusion on Joe's part, as relapsing into old patterns. I'm repeating myself now but like: and actually Ming is the delusional one. Only someone as totally willing as Ming to throw himself into maladaptive fantasies and live there could actually jump into this relationship, instead of feeling the resistance Sol does. Every moment of connection or attraction they share, Ming will experience as a reprieve, a homecoming, and Joe will experience as a failure of his resolve and his sense.

It's soooo tasty.

[coricomile]

I desperately want Ming to actually bring real joy into Joe's life because Joe deserves it. But it's his second chance at life, because Ming was the *direct cause* of the death of the first. Even if it wasn't literal "your body is now bones to be burned", he wrecked any chance whatsoever of Joe's career and reputation and livelihood. But this isn't a romantic gesture. Nothing Ming does in this episode is a romantic gesture to prove he's changed.

He didn't do this to give Joe recognition. He did it to stake his claim on Joe in a very public place where Joe couldn't react negatively- even used that same reason to force Joe into having a drink with him so he could talk when Joe didn't want to be there. He looks at Sol and the cameras before and after, smug, to piss Sol off and daring him to say anything or start a fight- again in a public place with cameras recording *everything*- and force his way into this PR narrative so Wut and Ming's manager *have to* say yes for him being incorporated into the MV verse and directly used his manager to get Joe in the car with him when Joe absolutely did not want to.

And in the car, he says it is HIS second chance, that fate or the gods or whatever sent Joe back for HIM specifically. He feels guilt for what he did, and he does love Joe in his incredibly strangely specific back kink means love way, but it is still all about *him* and what *he* wants and how he can manipulate it.

Joe tells him, "If you really love me and want to make it up to me, *let me go* so I can be happy."

And Ming responds, "I still *own* you until the contract is up, and I will *force* you to admit you still love me."

The contract isn't being literally chained in the basement, but it might as well be. Joe will not sacrifice the safety and care of his brand new mom that he loves and has always wanted. He is not the kind of man to go back on his word, even if he knows it will cause him physical and emotional damage. And Ming *knows* that. He is still playing master manipulator.

It's part of who he is. He doesn't know how to do anything else. He forced his way into Joe's life once and made him love him, so why can't he do it again, but better? Ming- who has gotten everything he has ever wanted on an actual platter if he wanted it enough, except for Tong (love)- still *expects* that Joe will fold, because he has before.

Wasn't his grief enough? Wasn't his apology enough? Aren't his tricks to ~prove himself enough?

No. Because he's doing it all again, but this time he has a different reason. It has to be Joe's *choice* to go back, and everything he has done since he woke up from someone else's coma has been in the service of not seeing or dealing with Ming, even if he still loves him. Because that love *literally killed him*.

Ming coming to Joe's first press conference with roses for him. How much has he wished he had been able to do that in that past two years?

And it was for a movie video with Sol where they played lovers in the MV! The exact fear that drove Ming to kidnap Joe last time! But this time? Ming comes to Joe. Ming comes with roses and he comes to step between them and he comes to show support and he comes to be there.

This is the first time that we have truly seen a moment from the past that could have been redone, remade, reshaped into what should have been rather than simply what was but new again.

[vegaseatsass]

Reading/thinking about Sol some more, and I do think there's a need from some viewers for him to be either the pure selfless "healthy romance" choice OR purely selfish and unworthy of Joe, and imo he's neither, and that's what makes him interesting and human.

He hurt Joe by assuming the worst of him (in like, a very specifically, viscerally hurtful-to-queers way) and running away; he expects to be able to pick up where they left off as soon as he comes back, and really struggles to calibrate to the fact that Joe neither held a grudge against him nor pined for him this whole time. He just... moved on.

A lot of the ways Sol tries to support Joe or intervene in his toxic relationship with Ming are blatantly compromised by how much Sol wants Joe to choose him instead, but he's also right about Ming. I find him compelling because he goes harder than anyone before Ing in consistently, materially trying to be there for Joe, but there's always that level of selfish motivation to Sol's actions where he doesn't just want to protect Joe from violence or danger, he wants to redirect Joe's feelings from Ming back to himself. (And sometimes he fails to protect Joe not because Joe won't let him intervene but because he's too busy fighting Ming to pay attention to the guy they both just knocked to the ground!!)

If Sol really let go of the idea that Joe could ever want him again, would he still be as ride-or-die for Joe? Is the sincerity Joe showed him something he's repaying in kind, or is there always something he still wants from Joe lingering in the background? Is it possible to sincerely support someone you haven't stopped hoping will one day choose you? And when Joe refuses to let Sol help him, is it because he can't let himself burden a junior, or because he is intuiting and avoiding those strings that come attached to Sol's help, or both?

To me all of those questions are a lot more interesting than like "does Sol deserve Joe" or anything along those lines.

[vegaseatsass]

My Stand-In Episode 9

I have like 10min to ejaculate some emotions before I have to run again so lmfao /types hard and fast I adore that after twisted coercive action after twisted coercive action, Ming almost almost almost had his Kinn moment where he lets Joe go. He came SO close. But he couldn't stick the landing. He's going twisted coercion to the VERY END, BABY!!! And I do think in many ways that's a clue about whether he would have been able to let Joe go when he asked in the first life, before the baseball bat, if Joe hadn't gotten the call from Sol and given Ming a justification for spiralling into delululand. I really do think he was close to hearing Joe then too, and honoring his desperate requests to let go. But "close" means letting him walk across the street and then chasing him, not actually releasing his grip. Ming will always be so very Ming <3

Wut pissed me off throughout this ENTIRE episode but I am trying not to relapse to "the NARRATIVE doesn't UNDERSTAND what it's DOING" reactions to characters with his framing and actually just take what's on the screen in good faith. And what's on the screen is a man who never truly acknowledged his own role in getting Joe killed, doomed to make all the same choices and mistakes all over again. While carrying himself with so much unearned self-righteousness and avuncular "wisdom", augh I hate him but yeah. He thinks what he did wrong in Joe's first life is like not yell at him hard enough to keep him from driving off a cliff. Not push an abused, financially desperate man into further isolation with nary a moment of considering trying to support him or even just giving him companionship for the night while he recovered from being fuckin kidnapped. So yeah, it's not surprising he's consistently making the easy choices, the "it's not REALLY my problem" choices, that put Joe back in Ming's grasp again and again. Like okay thank you as a plot device Wut (yes I am a sick and twisted hypocrite lmao), but fuck you fuck you fuck you as a human being.

However! SOL THIS EPISODE! Oh my god this is why I needed to quickly post! The duality of this character! I made FUN of Ming for thinking that Soljoe as a branded pair was any kind of threat, but episode 9 Sol was like "no actually. Audience shipping is reality if we try hard enough to make it be so." The way the lines are so blurred for him between just desperately desperately wanting to be there for Joe and desperately desperately wanting Joe to see that Ming is the wrong choice and Sol is the right choice, and I have strong doubts about how fully conscious the latter is - he knows he still wants Joe, sure, but I think he sees his (nonexistent, sorry baby) romantic eligibility as an opportunity to get Joe away from Ming. If Joe had a partner who wasn't violent and dangerous, I truly believe Sol would back off while harboring his feelings more quietly. But if Joe is single or with Ming? Sol has to try with everything he's got and cannot see the ways that that compromises his support for Joe.

And yet! EVERY time he called out Wut for facilitating Mingjoe (SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK WUT) I was cheering for him. Helping Joe with (Joe-on-Joe) crimes??? Being his lookout??? The crowd ROARED! And there's something to be said for Joe in the middle of the grieving process for his body and life, and Sol being the one who comes by to accompany him the next morning. Again, it's that duality: he is coming because they have a music video to promote, he is coming because he's giddy about selling them as a branded pair and maybe making Joe see him as a romantic option. But being very frank, I think it matters that Joe had someone who knew what happened and knew he was in the middle of grieving be there at his side that morning. I don't think he struggled to wake up when Ing shook him because he was sleepy. I think he was carrying something a lot heavier than that, and you need community to help you carry that burden. And there's nobody trying to or thinking of offering that for Joe except Sol. For partly selfish reasons, again, that's the juice of the character, that that duality is always present for him, but for ME it still matters as a kind of material support.

Lastly, the little glimpse of Yim being bitter and fucked up about Joe's death, and how that went over Joe's head, because he doesn't expect his CHILDHOOD FRIEND to remember him and grieve him. Delicious little detail.

[katerinaptrv]

Joe's Internal Struggle - Ep 9 Analysis (MingJoe bias because i am a believer)

Well, this was definitely the most emotional episode so far, yeah, seeing and burying your original body is enough to destabilize everyone. We all can see and understand this, so I will focus on his internal struggle towards Ming after the event.

First, in his funeral he sees that Ming does feel guilty, and sees his grief indicating for Joe he does feel something for him.

Sol, “he only feels guilty” explanation is like a new fear unlocked moment for Joe, to doubt Ming’s real motivations and his love, and make him hesitant about what he wants to be true.

Ok, to finish the funeral we have the confrontation, Joe confronts Ming, but he never really gets violent with him, just pushes him around a little screaming at him.

I found this fact interesting no matter what Ming does (kidnapping and at all), Joe has never once punched him or hurt him in any physical way. We all know how understandable we would be if he did, Ming certainly did enough for us to find it justified, but Joe never does it.

And this is why I personally think he gets really frustrated when Sol does it, I don't think he likes it at all when his friend does this. It certainly does not have the effect Sol hopes it does. He actually gets mad, for me, his head is like “I am the one in this shit with him doing all of this, i don’t punch him, what do fuck you think you are doing it?”. I always imagine him screaming this at Sol in his head.

Anyway going back, Ming does his usual manipulation/forceful/selfish plan to get what he wants, that right now is confirmation that new Joe is actually old Joe.

And Joe falls for it of course, but we have some important clues of his internal conflict here, first the mugs.

He gets to them and stops, not knowing if he takes them with him or leaves them, it symbolizes his current conflict with Ming when he does not know to give him a chance or leave him for good.

Before he makes the choice, this is important guys, I will come back to this later. Ming shows up revealing his master evil plan, and trying to make amends.

And Joe throws at him his major insecurity, and his major problem with Ming in general:

“If i told you, you would make me Tong’s replacement for the rest of my life.”

Now, again, let’s take a minute to analyze this, this is his first real confrontation with Ming since his death. He abandoned the cover of not being him and confronted him. But Joe does not say “you ruined my life”, “you were the reason i am dead” and etc. And when he quotes those he says "you wouldn't be thinking of Tong when you did".

For Joe is not what he did, is why he did it (very unhealthy way of thinking, but is how he thinks about it).

He points Ming greatest sin towards him in his POV and it is you never loved me back.

And Ming begins his path of atonement, and Joe hears for the first time saying he loves him, that he missed him all along.

Then, of course Sol comes in, punches Ming and drags Joe away.

Drags, Joe still paralyzed by the last piece of information he receives, and when he starts to react again is to call for Ming.

Then he stops at the bottom of the stairs facing his internal conflict again about what he wants and what he is afraid to want.

And Sol throws his fears at him to convince him to not go back, that was what he really wanted to do.

Now, we have a new morning in his house. Joe has been kinda on the funk(completely understandable and relatable), then after his mother awakes him, the other woman comes to say: “Someone is here for you”. And we see the expectative and hope in Joe’s face, and it all falls when he sees Sol. Because that is not who he really wanted to be looking for him or see.

And of course, he loves Sol as a friend/brother and he is happy that he cares, but is not the same for him.

We have the press conference, with Ming being his usual manipulative/forceful self which only deepens Joe’s fears and pushes him away. Because in his POV for him is like saying he didn’t change, he is still the same, i was only fooling myself.

Then Sol goes violent with Ming again (must be a new record) and I only want to comment on Joe's reaction. Because yes, he is saying for him to stop because of the press and etc.

But he steps in to push him away, but stays with Ming, and not to restrain him, but to check on him.

And in the end we have the very awaited conversation (with wrong backs crush and all) with them washing their dirty laundry right in front of poor secretary Jim salad (let's hope for a bonus from Mike for him, that man suffers).

And for me the decisive moment is when Joe asks for Ming to let go, and he does for a few seconds (was it like 5? not much) and he goes after him again,

And that is the conflict that will endure at least one more episode, Joe has all the information now, but Ming does not let him have space to choose. And he needs to have it, to think about it all, feel what he truly feels and if go back this time to be by his choice. He wants to go back by choice not because Ming forced him.

Now quoting our canonically successful unbalanced toxic ship, VegasPete needed to be separated, Pete needed to come back to his life without Vegas and be given the choice to let him go, what he was (even with the very final possibility, because KP). And then he chooses, he got everything he had without him, and saw it was empty for him now, so he makes his choice to be with Vegas.

MINOR BOOK SPOILERS AND THEORIES FOR NEXT EPISODES:

In the book we have the same confrontation, Ming does not let go, and Joe stays with him without ever being given a chance to breathe. So Joe stays while saying he wants him to go all the time.

Until for book reasons, that i won’t say, Ming disappears, is gone, he isn’t there anymore, he is not calling Joe or being around. Joe has his life back, he is free, and he hates it.

Important to say it was not Ming’s choice (we all know he could never), but he is forced to do it by something out of his control.

And that gives Joe the space to feel what he feels and make the choice of coming back with him. Also, Joe is not given any information of what happened, so he experiences for a smaller frame of time what Ming did in those two years which helps him to forgive the other.

He does not know what happened to him, did he get tired and leave, did something happen, where is he?

Anyway, the situation in the book is kind of old fashioned, and I am almost certain it might not be adapted the same in the series, so theory time.

There has been talk in the fandom about a possible future scene of Joe in a wheelchair and in a hospital. So maybe, they have an accident, a bad one, and maybe Ming gets really close to dying of something and this is how they will adapt to him being away and Joe’s choice. But is just some crazy theory I've been thinking about now that we are getting close to the end.