#jedi: fallen order meta

[fanfoolishness]

I've been meaning to dive into how much I love Cal and Cere's tension, and their relationship, in Fallen Order. It's so well-written and well-acted, and I love how much both of them grow throughout their time together. Buckle in, folks, this is a long one!

Here, Cal's just been rescued by the Mantis crew after being kidnapped to fight the Haxion Brood. This is something he has every right to be furious at Greez about. Greez's gambling debts led the Brood to put out bounties on him, and when they couldn't get him, they snagged a kid who just happened to fall into Greez's orbit. Cal and BD-1 were both at risk of losing their lives for Greez's mistakes. While Greez is appropriately apologetic, Cal barely even pays attention. He stares at Cere, his shoulders slumped, expression barely hiding his hurt.

He's still reeling from what he learned on Zeffo the day before. From who he learned it from.

The Second Sister cornered and nearly killed him, goading him about being a weak Padawan, about Jaro Tapal. But she also revealed that she was Cere's former Padawan, that Cere had lied to Cal, and that Cere was responsible for what had happened to Trilla.

This devastates Cal.

He holds it together as much as he can. While still on Zeffo, he allows himself a moment of real vulnerability, asking quietly, "Cere, why didn't you tell me?" But by the time he's rescued from the Brood, that vulnerability shifts into disappointment and a desperate hope that somehow Trilla was lying to him.

I love what they do with him here. He's sarcastic. Angry. "I had a nice chat with the Second Sister." He waits a second to drop the bomb. "Trilla." This is Cal Kestis at his most teenaged, snarky and hurt and venomous. He still keeps it reeled in -- he did grow up a Jedi, after all, he's not gonna cuss her out or anything absurd like that -- but he's so human here, and so young.

There's that desperate hope. He asks Cere if it's true, if she really betrayed Trilla to the Empire.

But Cere, for her part, can't go there yet. How she can explain to this traumatized Padawan whose connection to the Force is still so fragile, that not all masters sacrificed themselves for their Padawans? How can she admit it to herself? She tries to deflect and to tell Cal that Trilla would do anything to compromise their mission, because she can't yet say "Yes. I tried to protect her, and I failed, and she paid the price." Because who can just say that? Who can take a look at the lowest they have ever been and stare at it with the cold light of honesty and say yes, the bad things you've heard about me are absolutely true? And imagine trying to do that when you're also trying to make amends, to move forward, to protect other children -- and you know that that protection starts right here, right now, with this one boy, and you've got to do anything you can to earn his trust?

So she deflects, and avoids saying anything of substance, and Cal's having none of it.

Check the subtitle here. We got the ?! in the house!!! Cal has to know, how can she not know how important this is? Because now that he's off Bracca, the safety valve's gone. He's got to do something of meaning now, got to help people the way he should have been doing all along. His own survival? Fine. Who needs it now. If he can just do something meaningful, if he can just keep someone else from having to go through what he did, then by the Force he's going to do it. Once in motion a Cal Kestis in motion must stay in motion, for the alternative is terrifying.

"Is it true?!" and he doesn't know what to think about the former Jedi before him, if he can trust anything she'd told him so far, if she'll protect him if the time comes, if she'll give in to the Empire again. He's pissed off and wounded and scared. Cere and Trilla's relationship has nothing to do with him and everything to do with him.

And Cere just acquiesces that Trilla was her apprentice, and Cal snaps, "You should have told me."

They don't get any more time to deal with it, because Kashyyyk needs them.

If you keep having Cal and Cere interact after this point, Cal is noticeably brittle. Cere tries to apologize, but Cal has thrown up his walls, deciding that fine, this is how it is now, and the trust they were starting to share is over. He doesn't want to talk about it when Cere tries to bring it up... but he lets Greez see how hurt he still is. That's safer than trying to talk to Cere about it directly.

Compare Cal asking why she couldn't tell him, and sharing how he feels like she broke their sense of being a team...

... To Cal's response after Cere admits she should have told him the truth from the beginning. That's what he said earlier that he wanted, but here, he's having none of it. It's too hard to get into with her. He's too afraid of what he'll find if they're really honest at this point, so he tries to shift the focus back to the mission. Things are broken between him and Cere, fine, but they can still do their work. He clings to that. As hurt as Cal is, he knows what they're doing still makes sense, and he still wants to fight against the Empire. If he has to do that with someone he can't trust, well, so be it.

And Cere understands. Despite her fear of going into the truth, she knows she's the one with greater wisdom and experience here. She doesn't tell him he's being a petulant child about something that has nothing to do with him, or tell him he needs to get over it. If she can't be fully honest with him, not yet, she does an admirable job of being otherwise open and accepting of his feelings. She knows he'll either come around, or he won't, and all she can do is offer the space for him to do so.

By the end of the second Kashyyyk mission, Cere's hoping that enough time has passed that maybe Cal's ready to hear more. Perhaps she's also guilty that Trilla went after him again, and that the Ninth Sister also put Cal's life in danger. Whatever the reason, she tries to reach out to him again. She gives more explanation that she has so far, and you can see just how difficult this is for her. All three characters are acted so well here -- Greez awkwardly in the middle putting way too much salt on his food, Cere's halting explanation, and Cal's completely closed off body language. H

ell, we practically even get an eye roll from him. Yeah. This dude's still a teenager.

...but one who's acting this way out of hurt, and out of not knowing/being afraid to know the whole story. Once you know everything that happened to Cere and Trilla, it's not wrong to want to shake Cal and tell him to be more understanding! They were in an impossible situation! There was no way to win and they both lost!

But he doesn't know that, and at this point, it's easier -- less painful for him -- not to know. So he tells Cere it's okay, but the message is, I don't want to hear it. He's been thinking about it all along when he goes off on his missions, and he's come to the conclusion that yeah, Cere probably did the best she could, there's no point dwelling on it, and that's good enough to go on with the mission. It's fine. (He's fine.)

And then we get... Dathomir and Kujet's Tomb, and all of Cal's efforts to move forward in the Force, to be strong when Cere let him down, to focus on the mission, it all goes to hell.

Suddenly Cal's the one overwhelmed by regret and self-blame. He's forced to examine his own darkest day, and when confronted with it, he falls apart. He's heartbroken all over again and convinced that what happened to Master Tapal was entirely his own fault, even though Cere tries to absolve him by telling him the truth, that he was just a child. Cal can't hear a thing she's saying.

Both actors here are so, so good. Cal is scared and small and a hurt, grieving child so desperate to find a sense of control about what happened that he blamed himself. His voice breaks, he hunkers down into himself, he holds his ruined lightsaber as tight as he can. And Cere finally lets the poison spill out, the self-hatred she's been carrying so long, she gets down on his level and manages to say everything she's been holding in. It comes out in a frantic, breathless rush, and honestly, both of them bring tears to my eyes in this scene.

So she's finally open. Finally lays it all out. What happened to her, how she used the dark side, how she failed both Trilla and herself.

More importantly, both for herself and for Cal, she reveals how she kept going. How she found a new hope. How she decided that this was not the end of her story.

Now we see what Cere was like as a Jedi truly. She's compassionate, but commanding. She instructs Cal to get up. Tells him he's going to make a new lightsaber. That it isn't over. That he can move on. He just has to take the first step.

And Cal wipes the tears from his eyes, and nods, and he believes her.

The lesson stays with him. He always was a fast learner. He goes to Ilum and rebuilds his lightsaber, goes to Dathomir and confronts his past again and this time succeeds. He learns that failure is not the end, but a part of the path. He starts to thaw towards Cere, grateful that she didn't turn away from him when he fell to his lowest and confessed what had happened to Master Tapal.

Then Trilla confronts him on Bogano, and he sees what happened first hand.

The entire sequence is gutting. Trilla's fear and agony are palpable, and Cere's devastation -- both emotional and dark side -- are so painful to see. Cal's utterly overwhelmed by it, sent into a partial seizure from the intensity of the flashback. (That dazed expression afterward sure looked post-ictal to me.) And when he gets back to the Mantis, bereft a Holocron, instead of telling Cere the next thing they need to do for the mission....

Cal Kestis halts everything because he has to apologize.

He wastes no time. He tells Cere immediately he saw what they went through. He says "I'm so sorry." And he takes responsibility for his own behavior, that arrogance that he clung to that told him he would never fail someone that way.

The thing is, Cere was comfortable never hearing this apology from him. She had started making peace with it, ever since Dathomir, with what she had done. She never expected him to empathize like this, but hearing it must have been such a powerful, emotional feeling. It's only after Cal apologizes and makes things right between them that he goes forward to discuss what happened to the Holocron and what they need to do next.

When it's Cere who takes the news hard, who blames herself... look who's there, reflecting his master's teachings right back at her. He tells her that mistakes are in the past, that they're in this together, that she won't be going after the Holocron alone; he even reaches out and puts a hand on her shoulder, starting to grow from a mentee to an equal, to someone who can support her as she's been supporting him.

Seeing how Cal lifts Cere up during her darkest time, both here on the Mantis and later in Nur, as a reflection of what she did for him after Dathomir... I could scream about it, okay??? In fact I have been screaming about it! Right here! In this post! For several thousand words!!! Just seeing these two respect each other! Care for each other! Lift each other up!!! I can't even with it! They have both grown SO MUCH!

SHE'S SO PROUD OF HIM JUST LOOK

and then she KNIGHTS HIM and my heart just bursts with pride at how far they've both come, Cere finally embracing the Force again, Cal kneeling to accept a Knighthood he thought he would never, ever see....

you can't tell me he wasn't tearing up here. I saw how bright they made his eyes look in this split second. YOU CAN'T FOOL ME. Damn, I wish I could gif the little looks on his face right at this moment, because you can see so many emotions wash over him. Cameron Monaghan over here just exploding my heart. This kid!!!

...

anyway, I think that's all I've got. Just... CAL AND CERE! They mean a lot to me, okay???

[tatzelwyrm]

I love that you shoot Bode with his own blaster that he gave you.

I love that when Bode gave you that blaster, Cal pointed out that it was not a Jedi weapon and that his Jedi master would have disapproved of it.

I love that when Denvik makes assumptions about Cal based on him being a Jedi, Cal pulls that blaster on him.

I love that Cal didn't kill Bode with his Jedi weapon.

I also love that Cal's Jedi weapon, his lightsaber, was his master's lightsaber, because his own was lost at the same time Cal's master was killed.

(And I love that when Saw Guerrera asks Cal which Jedi he took this lightsaber from, we do not know yet the circumstances under which it was given.)

I love this even more because this lightsaber was still broken at the start of the first game.

I love that Cal didn't fix his Jedi weapon until he was well on his quest to (presumably) restore the Jedi order.

I love that when the saber broke a second time, Cere gave Cal her (empty) lightsaber hilt to fix it.

(And I love that the weapon of Cere's original apprentice was so imbued with pain that Cal couldn't even hold it without a strong physical reaction.)

I love that Bode didn't have his own lightsaber with him when he revealed his true nature.

I love that he picked up the lightsaber of a Fallen Jedi instead.

In short: I love the weapons in this series and the journeys they go on. I love the statements they make. I love their breaking and fixing and the ways in which they are given.

I love their symmetry.

I love their poetry.

(But I also love that you can make every one of them purple.)

[acewizardinspace]

One of my favorite parts about jedi fallen order is how Cal's psychometry function both within the narrative and as a game-play mechanic.

As a game-play mechanic it allowed the developers to tell the player background information in a way that made more sense in-universe than there just being a random npc around to lore drop or finding some old journal, ect. It also means the developers don't need to animate cut scenes for every little thing but can still share this information. It also functions as a collectable and a way to reward exploration.

But its use in the narrative is the most interesting. Cal is a survivor of genocide, he is on the run from a government than wants to kill him for existing. He is so traumatized by the loss of his people and the memory of his master who died protecting him that he can't even use most of his powers at the beginning of the game.

Cal is literally haunted by his past.

And that is why giving him psychometry was a stroke of genius on the part of the developers. No amount of running or hiding will ever stop the past from clinging to him. It will always be there in every random object he touches. And this is shown through the plot of the game and his overall goal too. He wants to restart the jedi order, rebuild his family, which is a noble and understandable goal, but under the rule of the empire, not a safe one.

It is only at the end of the game, after he sees the possible result of chasing the past, that he lets it go. He knows that being a jedi is not being held down by your attachments and putting other's needs before your own. He gives up on restarting the order to protect those children from the empire and in doing so lets go of his attachment to the past.

The past is always with him, but it doesn't need to control him.

[superectojazzmage]

Me: Fallen Order was good but the story was pretty run-of-the-mill as far as Star Wars goes and didn’t really do anything special, was very risk averse in general, I bet Survivor will be about the same.

Jedi Survivor: This is the story of Cal Kestis, a man broken by a life of constant war, struggling to maintain his faith and morality while fighting as a guerrilla rebel under the tyrannical reign of a brutal Empire. Traumatized and worn down, he finds himself increasingly forced to compromise his code to survive, prompting him onto a quest to find a possibly mythical world where he can escape the endless bloodshed and become something more than a killer.

In his quest, he finds himself confronting the failures of the Jedi Order and learning to reject the dogma that led them astray, while also facing his trauma and embracing the things that make him human, that which the Order had taught him to repress. Yet he does this without losing the core positive teachings of the Jedi, instead learning to follow the true ways of their predecessors rather than the shallow, rigid, close-minded thinking that the modern Jedi Order had fallen into.

He finds sanctuary and closure in neither violence nor stoicism, but in the arms of his family and the love he feels for them, eventually facing and defeating individuals that the system failed, allowing him to learn from their mistakes as well. He discovers new ways of viewing the world yet retains his own self.

In the end, despite loss and struggle, he regains his faith in the Force and what it really means to be a Jedi, beginning his journey of healing and forging a meaningful life even with knowledge that the dark times persist, accepting that he cannot single-handedly change the world only do what he can, as well as that he cannot fight hatred with hatred, only with love, and that even if the times ahead will be full of challenge and hardship, life is still worth living and freedom is still worth fighting for.

Me: 🫠

[jaguarys]

Anyways shoutout to Cal Kestis for truly being one of the characters ever. The sheer amount of personality in every single one of his movements is so fucking good

[breakfastteatime]

So... so they land on Bogano and Cere, who has a *very* good idea of just how limited Cal's abilities are, just says "off you go!" And Cal... off he goes!!!!

...into the jaws of an oggdo...

Y'know, sometimes I don't think we examine Cere's motives in Fallen Order closely enough. This woman is so focused on her mission to bring back the Order that I genuinely think she's blind to the needs of others. You could say she drives Cal, pushes him to be his best self, and yet there are times when her actions are less benevolent and more 'succeed in this mission at any cost.'

She's walking a very thin line in that game. She might be suppressing her Force abilities, but there's this tiny thread of self-centredness that drives her.

It's amazing writing, and it's an amazing performance.

[gffa]

ANYWAY THIS COMIC WAS SO GOOD FOR THIS MOMENT ALONE The premise is that Cere and Cordova are on a mission to a planet that’s joining the Republic, but one region of the planet is holding out, and the reasons why and Cere’s involvement in the whole thing turn out to be an absolute shitshow that the Republic has to come rescue them from, and it’s at Cere’s most desperate, worst moment that this happens. MACE WINDU, LUMINARA UNDULI, AND ODU APPEARING TO RESCUE THEM, THE LIGHT LITERALLY SHINING OVER THEIR SHOULDERS AND HALOING THEIR HEADS. I FEEL U, CERE, I TOO LOOK AT MACE WINDU THE SAME EXACT WAY. Also, Mace calling her “Luminara” with no other titles, new headcanon unlocked: MACE AND LUMINARA ARE FRIENDS NOW, NO TAKEBACKS, IT’S CANON

[darth-kote]

[kefalion]

Things I want in the Third Game about Cal Kestis

Set it in 4 BBY

Let another 5 years pass between the games. Felt appropriate last time. It makes it credible that things have properly changed between the games and ages everyone so that a new chapter can take place.

Force Sensitive Kata

While I’m all about the Force not following bloodlines (unless you’re a Skywalker) and instead appearing in anyone, the complicated relationship Kata would have with the Jedi because of her dad and because of Cal has the potential for such a good story

Cal as Kata’s Jedi Master

Following in the previous point. Kata would be learning from the man who killed her dad, and he would be teaching the daughter of the man who betrayed him. So much potential angst. 

Also wonderful gameplay potential. She could be a temporary companion who can help you, but she would also be someone you’d have to worry about. She’d be an itty bitty 12-14 year old. Perfect for a Padawan (I can’t tell how old she is in Survivor. Can’t be over ten because of the timeline. Feels older than 6 with how she talks)

Cal Struggling to be Kata’s Master

Again continuing. Cal would see Bode in Kata and no matter how he would try to not let it happen, I think it would make him unfair to her at times. He’d struggle with being a master regardless of who is the apprentice, remembering his worries from before he found the holocron with the list of Force Sensitive younglings, worrying about how teaching anyone about the Force puts a target on their back. He’d worry about knowing enough to teach. He never formally completed his own training. How can he be anyone’s master? 

Quinlan Vos

Need I say more? The Kenobi series put Quinlan with the Hidden Path in 9 BBY which is when Survivor takes place. Obviously he needs to meet Cal. And he should mentor Cal. They have so much in common! They share the rare ability of psychometry. They have an affinity for Dathomiri Night Sisters. They’ve both touched the dark side. It obviously needs to happen!

The Hidden Path on Tanalorr 

The Hidden Path should be established on Tanalorr. It should be bustling with people living their best lives. There should be plenty of untrained Force Sensitive people. There should be a handful of Jedi too. Precious survivors.

The Nihil Attacking

The Nihil attacked Tanalorr in the time of the High Republic. They should do it again and ruin everything. 

The Empire as the Main Antagonist 

While I want the Nihil to be a problem, I would prefer it as an inciting incident rather than as something that takes up a significant part of the game. The Empire is the true enemy and should be treated as such. It could be that Tanalorr is attacked early in the game and the rest of the objective is to keep everyone who now has to go on the run, safe from the Empire.

Consequences Because of Cal’s Relationship with Merrin

Cal deciding to get together with Merrin in Survivor is treated as a good thing (so romantic!) and she is obviously so good for him (sarcasm) because she pulled him back from the Dark Side, but that’s not the Jedi Way, and (I’d argue) not how the Force Works. A strong romantic relationship requires putting your partner first. A Jedi can’t do that. You can’t have both, and I want Cal to be a Jedi. So, he gets consequences. 

We’ve already seen him struggling with his attachments. He was attached to Cere. He was attached to Bode. He was attached to Tanalorr and the future he wanted to build there. Losing it all, made him angry.

If he builds a stronger relationship with Merrin, I’m saying it would lead to an attachment and then if something threatens her, he’d get afraid. If something happens to her, he’d get angry. And after, he could turn to hate.

If we need another Jedi romance, let Cal follow in Anakin and Bode’s footsteps. I wanna see the consequences!

Rematch with Darth Vader

Cal got to bat his saber once against Vader’s in Fallen Order and defiantly refuse him the Holocron.

Cere got a full duel with the Sith Lord in Survivor. 

It’s Cal’s turn now. He should be fighting to save someone or something. Perhaps stalling. Perhaps becoming overconfident and thinking he can end the Dark Lord.

I’m not sure if I think Cal should die by Vader’s hand or not. I’d love for him to stay alive, to make it past the end of the Empire and possibly make it to live-action. Realistically though he should be killed, and he deserves to go out against the worst of the worst.

[theangelwithawand]

Cal Kestis’s Lightsaber

Cal’s lightsaber is cool. I know the reason for the stances is because video game, but character and story-wise it makes sense too.

The different stances give Cal increased adaptability for different situations. It plays into the whole “Survivors. We adapt.”message.

It also shows Cal’s natural combat prowess. No one taught him to wield these other stances, he figured it out on his own, building on a strong foundation from Jaro Tapal.

It’s also a great reminder of his scrapper days. Light sabers are notoriously difficult to build and modify, and for Cal to build such a complex weapon, it is clear how much Prauf taught him on Bracca.

Finally, I love what the double bladed saber represents for Cal. He builds it on Ilum after overcoming a moment of hopelessness. He takes the broken crystal and uses it to make a double bladed saber that can split apart. He adapts.

A lot of people comment that his double bladed stance feels really powerful compared to others, and I can’t help but wonder if that’s on purpose. Story-wise it makes the most sense for it to be the one he favors. Yes, he usually defaults to a standard saber in cut scenes but that’s the one he was trained on. He’s also had the double sided saber since the first game, meaning he’s had five years of training with it. He’s had the split sabers too, but he used them as a special attack within the double sided saber stance.

As much as I love Jedi Survivor, I don’t think the studio understands how crossguard sabers work. I understand having it be a heavy two-handed weapon because video game, but crossguard sabers aren’t from a custom emitter. When you bleed a crystal wrong you need vents to emit the excess energy. It’s nothing game breaking but I think it’s funny.

I’m sure that I am not the first one to come up with this headcanon, but I like to think that Cal changes his lightsaber color from its canonical blue to green after starting something with Merrin so he can match her magick. Because Cal is dorky like that.

Also, the lightsaber he uses technically isn’t his. It belonged to Jaro Tapal.

Anyway, thanks for my too-long meta analysis of me reading too deeply into things that probably only exist because of video game mechanics!

[fanfoolishness]

I started replaying Jedi: Fallen Order last night, and it's been like an hour and my heart is breaking all over again. Look at this kid. Cal Kestis is barely 18 here, and he's just a baby covered in grease and oil leaping around incredibly dangerous wreckage in a job that's more like indentured servitude than a career. Passing through the scrapyard you overhear workers coughing (and not wanting to get it checked out) or complaining about company scrip. Prauf calls it out in a heartbreaking speech that engineers became scrappers, that their pay got cut, that things got more dangerous when the Empire took over. Cal's working in a death trap with nowhere to go. No wonder Prauf tried to tell him he should get out of here. How could you look at that face and not want to protect him?

Here's Cal in his Luke Skywalker era. Except where Luke wanted off a planet where he lived in the sticks (in the dunes) and nothing ever happened, Cal looks out over a planet where everything is scrap and trash and wreckage, and the Empire's boot smothers everything, and he has no dreams except old nightmares.

(Also, look at this gorgeous photo. This game is just stunning. It's incredible how they recreated the look of all of the beautiful matte paintings from the time of the original trilogy.)

Aaaaand here we go, the game gives you about 5 minutes before you dive headfirst in Cal Kestis' trauma, even if you don't know what exactly it is. The look in his eyes here is heartbreaking. Prauf was so strong to look into that thousand yard stare on this kid's face on the daily and not just lose it, honestly. Prauf, you the real MVP.

The panic when Cal uses the Force to save his friend -- and in his surprise, Prauf calls it like it is, says Force and Jedi -- is devastating. Cal's frantic, taking his friend's face in his hands, begging him to please forget it, please forget it, please stop talking about it, please don't think about it, the way Cal tries not to think about it every single day --

He's so, so scared.

I wonder if Cal's fractured relationship with the Force was a desperate act of self-preservation. While Cere cut herself off from the Force knowingly, what if Cal subconsciously did so as a way to protect himself? He must have crash-landed absolutely overloaded with terror, grief, anguish, even hatred for the clones who had turned on them. But if his connection to the Force splintered, if it shattered -- then those emotions couldn't lead him down a dark path. What if Cal accidentally insulated himself from the dark side? Because this is a face that is so frightened, and the dark could offer a solution for that, power that could save and protect him from such emotions.

Ugh I'm rambling. More nonsense to follow.

[netroids]

Our Hero and his lil Sidekick!

BD1 pdf at ko-fi site!

[hedonistbyheart]

There's something I keep seeing in reviews of Jedi Battle Scars and it surprises me every time.

A lot of people think it's out of character for Merrin to trust in Fret as quickly as she does and aside from the fact that her hormones are leading her by the nose for a lot of it, she also just Does That.

She trusted Malicos at his word despite his obvious control over the nightbrothers and kept trusting him long after Cal started introducing doubt in her mind.

Then, after finally getting away from Malicos' manipulation, she immediately pivots to trusting Cal enough to leave Dathomir with him and his crew instantly.

Merrin isn't stupid, but she is a nightsister which means being led by her emotions to an extreme degree, because that's how her magic is fed. If something fuels her magic she will follow it; that happened with Malicos, with Cal and then with Fret.

[starbeltconstellation]

I feel like this sums up a lot of my thoughts as well about the entire situation with the people’s view on the Jedi and their culture. 👏👏👏

Prosset Dibs accusing Mace of corrupting Jedi teachings when he himself goes on to become an Inquisitor is so interesting.

What really strikes me is the ending of the comic, where he says:

“You will do with me what you will. That is what is to be expected of tyrants. Do not insult me with false deliberations. Are you not soldiers now? Is my punishment not to be death?” 

And then Mace answers that no, Prosset is actually a victim of the war, and that being angry and confused is normal and that they can’t fault him for that. 

And he assigns him archive duties. Archive duties, when Prosset was raving about them being tyrants and smugly awaiting the death sentence. And he says:

“Do not make me some example of your false benevolence. Kill me. Prove to me you are what I know you to be.” 

And there it is. The “from my point of view, the Jedi are evil” mindset that all the fallen Jedi share. Mace just demonstrated that Prosset’s assumptions about the Council were false, but Prosset adamantly refuses to see it. He just knows the Jedi are about to kill him. He just knows they don’t care. 

In accusing the Order of being blind, it’s interesting how the fallen become blind themselves because they’re set in their point of view. They’re dealing in absolutes. They see any situation through the lenses of their newfound belief that the Order is evil, and are intent on not departing from that point of view under any circumstances.

Prosset sees being shown compassion as false benevolence. Because obviously Mace is corrupted, so he can’t be truthful in that moment, so his empathy has to be a lie.

“Prove to me what I know you to be.” 

Instead of relying on proof to formulate a belief, his belief comes first and proof has to align with it. That’s the mindset of the Fallen. You know the other is wrong and evil, and so you’ll see every action that they take as a confirmation of that. And if the action is objectively good, then it’s them being hypocritical, or extending false benevolence. 

Dooku, Anakin, Barriss and Prosset all profess something of that effect, and they’re all fallen, or about to. Dooku is the one heading filthy rich and corrupt corporations, manipulating the whole galaxy and treating slaughters like trivial issues. Prosset becomes an Inquisitor - the enforcer of a tyrant, what he accused the Jedi of being even in the face of contrary evidence. Anakin becomes Vader. Barriss knowingly kills innocents on several separate occasions, when she accused the Jedi of warmongering. They all become the thing they swore to destroy.

[jaguarys]

I love Ventress as much as the next person because I love to see a girlboss winning, but I also have to admit I really wish TCW had chosen a different route to explore Dathomirian lore because hm. It is incredibly hard to extricate her from the whole fucked up-ness of it all. And SW seems really determined not to address the fact that they introduced a Lot with the Nightsisters and Nightbrothers

[breakfastteatime]

What do you think the actual in-universe mechanics are for Cal interacting with echoes? Fandom is big on him being struck by accidental echoes all the time, and that's great for plot or angst purposes, but I don't read it that way; honestly, I can't see him staying sane if so. With the rare exceptions like Trilla's lightsaber, it seems to be an active choice on his part. My tenative headcanon is that (at least as a trained adult) Cal has to be actively open to/using the Force to read an echo from something (which he was when he was using it to summon Trilla's lightsaber) and otherwise, it's similar to game mechanics, that he can sense from a distance that something has an echo, and choose to interact with it. I like how you've balanced logic and fantasy world in your storoes so I'm wondering what your take on it is.

Thank you for asking about this! I will try to break down my thoughts as coherently as possible. I admit my interpretation has developed over the *checks notes* fifteen months since I first played Fallen Order.

This got lengthy so under the cut we goooooo!

Firstly, the headcanon that goes around about Cal not picking up echoes if he wears gloves does not work for me because you literally see him picking up echoes with his gloved hand in Fallen Order. He uses both hands to do this. Okay, PHEW, got that off my chest.

Alright, moving on!

Personally, I always try to separate videogame mechanics and storytelling because as a game, the echoes function the way finding documents would in another game (e.g. all the files you find in games like Control or Resident Evil, or the voice recordings in Bioshock). Whenever they are being included as a gameplay element, the player literally sees them as glowing blue light, and you have to interact with the item for Cal to pull out the echo. So yes, I agree that to some extent he has control over what he does and does not experience. I like to think Master Tapal taught him some self-control. You know - resist temptation, Cal!!!

However, when echoes are included as a storytelling element, there isn't always a light (e.g. the hallikset doesn't have anything until Cal touches it and it flashes, Trilla's lightsaber has nothing, the bacta tank in Survivor). These tend to be the more all-consuming ones (again - because it's a storytelling element so we're gonna get a cutscene).

We also see Cal pull his own echo out of a dream, and arguably the flashbacks in Fallen Order are examples of him doing this too... The flashbacks in both games (although more so in Fallen Order) are where gameplay and storytelling come together beautifully... but that's for another day!

So, how do I marry gameplay and storytelling? My interpretation is this: some echoes are so huge and so powerful that they just spill out of the Force from Cal's perspective. He can then choose to either interact with them or leave them. Others are equally powerful but catch him off-guard for whatever reason (he's distracted, he's tired, it's surrounded by 'brighter' echoes, or it just doesn't glow... I will find a plot device!). I also feel like the Force has this element of benign will, so if the Force wants Cal to see something, he's going to see it because the Force doesn't care about individuals. It's the Force! It doesn't conform to human behaviour.

As for how he would stay sane if almost everything he ever touches has some kind of echo on it, I come at it from a perspective of 'Jedi are as used to their abilities as I am with breathing'. If Cal does pick up stuff from everything (which I don't believe because not everything is being held while something of great importance happens!), he just processes it because he's a natural-born Force-sensitive, and he's used to it. The Jedi trained him on how to focus, how to let some things pass right through him, and how to reflect upon the echoes that won't go quietly. In other words - he gets better with age and practice, however sometimes psychometry still gets the better of him (a bit like how my lungs can breathe, but asthma makes that harder at times).

I also find it fascinating how Cal has clearly developed his ability between games. In Survivor, we see him holding onto himself more frequently (he follows Dagan in his dream/memory, we see him watching the moment Santari fights him... he then turns an echo against Dagan which I freaking LOVE... interestingly, he doesn't hold onto himself in the memory he picks up from Zee, suggesting that he hasn't quite perfected this yet.) Oh, and then we have the fractured echoes which I'm still kicking around as a 'how do I take this definitely a gameplay thing and make it a storytelling thing'.

The character development in these games is just fantastic, and going back and playing Fallen Order after a couple of Survivor playthroughs just makes it even clearer (and not because I keep forgetting teenaged Cal can't do a bunch of things).

I love to play around with echoes because they're just such a fun concept. Except more stories about them in the future!

I really hope my logic makes sense here! Thanks for the Ask ^_^