#it got to the point where i told people directly i dont like to be called 'smart' because it's Stressful

[vanillahealer]

dear followers, this is NOT an agere post

it's a CRK post, so... if you dont want that, dont worry about it! /gen

beast yeast ep 9 spoilers!! also it has angst also this is a VERY LONG post. specifically, below the cut is 3,834 words and 21,377 characters.

cw/tw: cognitive and emotional dissonance, emotional abuse (from a leader and/or mother figure), brainwashing?, cult, the word "pill" and a large part of this revolves around a metaphorical/emotional illness/disease

So I have a lot of thoughts about this episode. Things that I haven't seen talked about yet so I wanted to bring it up for the more-into-crk-lore-than-I-am-people if they see this.

Most people have mentioned or are aware of the things going on with Pavlova Cookie, Sugarfly Cookie, and Eternal Sugar Cookie. I think most believe that Pavlova Cookie and Sugarfly Cookie are and have been being abused by Eternal Sugar Cookie in some way. Some may even think Eternal Sugar Cookie is a cult leader. I've heard that suggestion be tossed around. Some may view her as an abusive mother figure. And all of that, in this post, will be posited. This is the basis of this post.

First, I'd like to point out something that I noticed quite early on in this episode, after everyone got to the Garden. The Sugar Angels—the ones who help heal the other Cookies—didn't seem to ever hate their job. I'm in a line of thinking that Pavlova Cookie, Sugarfly Cookie, and the Sugar Angels are different types of Cookies. I have no idea if there's any evidence to this, but I just sort of get that vibe. Which could mean a bunch of things. We could be seeing a type of hierarchy. The Sugar Angels are the most common type of Cookie there. They could be the main population, for lack of a better term. Pavlova Cookie and Sugarfly Cookie seem to be more-directly-under Eternal Sugar Cookie's commands and orders. Which is... "weird," in a sense—At least, it seems weird. Raspberry Cookie's line of (paraphrased), "Wow, a Cookie from House Raspberry would never shirk off their duty to another Cookie!" comes to mind for Pavlova Cookie. If Pavlova Cookie is as close (in terms of order of command) to Eternal Sugar Cookie, why would he act childishly? Why does he not like his duty? Why isn't he more loyal, like Sugarfly Cookie?

I think it's complicated. I think he actually does like his job. His job is to give Happiness to all, and by proxy, lead everyone to the Garden. And with all that he talks about Love—and his fascination on Love—and it really seems genuine. He DOES want to help all Cookies. He does want to spread Love and Happiness to all. Who wouldn't? I mean, he's been told all his life that Love and Happiness is good. But something's interesting. "Pain and sorrow are not allowed in the Garden." This leads us to, again, multiple things... One, Pavlova Cookie likes pain and sorrow too. The first time we meet him, he talks about a love tragedy. And how that love tragedy is apparently deliciously interesting. It seems that a "normal" Cookie of the Garden (idk what else to call them,) would be crying and deeply hurt about a love tragedy. If Pavlova Cookie shared this news to everyone else, he would be the bringer of bad news. He would make everyone in that Garden sad. But then again, sadness is unacceptable. Pavlova Cookie, being (assumingly) one of—or the only—Cookie of the Garden who can go to the Outside World, is the only Cookie of the Garden who actually sees pain and sorrow. He resonates with it. He understands it—and he loves it because this is the only place where he is also understood. It's very unnatural—and rather impossible—for someone to be happy all the time. Even Eternal Sugar Cookie expresses more emotions than just happiness and bliss in her own Garden. But anything other than Happiness is bad. Any other emotion is bad. Is horrible. Is needed to be snuffed out like a candle's flame. In the Garden, you are not allowed to feel anything other than this one thing. But what causes Happiness? In the game, Eternal Sugar Cookie literally says that Happiness is going after what you want. And that doesn't sound bad at all.

...Except it is. And it is to her, as well. Why else would she get upset at Pavlova Cookie? When he wants Hollyberry and everyone else to stay, he is doing what he wants. In fact, he's doing his job. He fully believes that this is apart of his duty as a member of the Cookies of the Garden. He believes this is what Eternal Sugar Cookie wants of him. And he's right. He is to bring Happiness to all Cookies, which means they are to stay in Eternal Sugar Cookie's Garden. This is what she wants. However, despite doing exactly that, Pavlova Cookie gets scolded by Eternal Sugar Cookie. He is told that this is now wrong. Yet another thing is wrong——exactly what Eternal Sugar Cookie wants is wrong. Now, there was no reason for Eternal Sugar Cookie to get upset at him like how she did. I feel like diffusing the situation would've been nice, unless she did and I just don't remember. Anyway, he objectively did nothing wrong as per her orders. But she fixated her eyes on him, filled with cold, piercing daggers. She told him that she would re-educate him. She does not understand him, and he does not understand her, in a sense. ...Or we can say it's one or the other, simultaneously. She does understand him, and he doesn't. This can be the case because she knows he wants to help, but he doesn't know her plan. Simple as that. Now let's say she doesn't understand him, but he understands her. He knows what she wants. Obviously, for he's acting all of this out and he's doing what he thinks is best. She thinks he is "going against her" by doing this. He is in the way of her plans. Both of these are true. ...They both know that she is leading the Cookies straight to danger. They both know that "pain and sorrow is bad for all Cookies." (Pavlova Cookie can still not know about the plan here. Any Cookie going out of the Garden is bad enough——he knows that himself. Just an added layer onto this.) But somehow, "pain and sorrow" is being allowed by Eternal Sugar Cookie. ...The outsider cookies are free to feel pain. They are free to express how hurt they are. They are free to tell her, "I'm not feeling okay." They are allowed to leave the Garden, get hurt, and come back and be treated with kindness and healings and benevolence. Pavlova Cookie, Sugarfly Cookie, the Sugar Angels, and other Cookies/Desserts of the Garden do NOT have this freedom. To add onto this, the outsider Cookies—Hollyberry, Wildberry, and Raspberry Cookie—judge him too. They judge Pavlova Cookie. Hollyberry Cookie tells Eternal Sugar Cookie that he seems to only prioritize what he wants. (I hear Pavlova Cookie argue, "This is Happiness. This is Eternal Sugar Cookie's blessing! And in doing this, I am helping other Cookies get Happiness too!!") Wildberry Cookie and Raspberry Cookie mock him, telling him he shouldn't pawn off his duties to another. ("Stop it! No one understands! My mother figure tells me I'm wrong when I'm doing exactly what she wants! You outsider Cookies don't understand me either! The only one who understands is Sugarfly Cookie!" I hear Pavlova Cookie vent out his frustrations.) Sugarfly Cookie seems like a sibling to him. They are happy to take the jobs for Pavlova Cookie. They understand how emotionally hurt he is, for his job is to go to the Outside World and view how much pain and sadness is in it, only to be constantly denied his own pain and sadness. He is in the world where this should not happen. He is meeting the Cookies that can help him. He sees where they live, he knows the creatures of the land. He knows pain and sadness exist here, freely, without constraint. If there is one place where he could be understood, it is here.

And he isn't. And even so, he has a job to do. He is to spread Happiness to others. The Happiness that he doesn't fully know. The Happiness that confuses him. The one that he doesn't know if it's bad or good. He doesn't know why he feels sadness. Why he feels hurt. This is the place where pain and sadness does not exist. The Garden is where all Cookies are cared for. He should not feel this way. He, while feeling these emotions, is betraying Eternal Sugar Cookie herself. He can't admit it to others, let alone admit it to himself. But he still likes giving Happiness to outsider Cookies. Because who doesn't want to be happy? Happiness will be good. Forever. It is impossible for Happiness to be a bad thing. Happiness is good. Happiness is right. It is the way of the Garden, and it is the way of his mother figure. Its importance has been passed down and spread all across the Garden. He would be a fool to say Happiness is bad. Everyone would laugh. Maybe even Sugarfly Cookie. Sugarfly Cookie does not know the Outside World. It's debatable if they once knew it. But as of now, they do not. If they did, it's been far too long for it to mean anything to them anyway. Because they are Happy now. They are in the Garden of Delights, where nothing can hurt them. What Eternal Sugar Cookie does is not hurtful. It is not painful. Her actions cause no pain. Pavlova Cookie complains only because he visits the Outside World, where pain and sorrow reign and reside. He is affected by the outside influences. It is natural that he needs to come back to the Garden and rejuvenate himself.

("But he tells me he experiences Happiness there, too. He says pain and sorrow give him Happiness. He tells me that love tragedies are wonderful. That broken hearts cause his heart to fill," I hear Sugarfly Cookie try to reason with their confused thoughts. "He is sick. He needs help more than anyone. But he tells me—and I understand—why he cannot tell the Sugar Angels. Word will get to Mother. And Pavlova Cookie has tried so hard to keep all of this away from her for so long. However... I still don't know what it is that causes him this odd Happiness. I want to see it for myself. I want to understand him.") And they tell Pavlova Cookie they want to go with him one day. They trust him. They want to help him. They want to understand him. And so they go. They see it with their own eyes what grants Pavlova Cookie this odd Happiness. ...And this could go in so many different directions. The only thing we know for sure (at least this is assumed for this post,) is that Eternal Sugar Cookie found out. However... I think it to be like this. Sugarfly Cookie is terrified. Upon knowing the truth, Pavlova Cookie's situation is more dire than they expected. Crying creatures are granting him inner peace. Tears. Anger. Fits of frustration between lovers. Heartbreak. Violence. Emotions that are not allowed in the Garden is causing Pavlova Cookie "Happiness." This odd Happiness that he calls "Understanding." ("He tells me that he wants to do this. He wants to look like them. He wants to... cry. They are in pain. Their hearts are hurting. Pavlova Cookie... wants pain?" Sugarfly Cookie questions. "He is sick—He is very, very ill. I must tell Mother. I must tell her so she can heal him.") They tell Eternal Sugar Cookie about what transpired. Sugarfly Cookie is mortified of the Outside World. Eternal Sugar Cookie sees how hurt Sugarfly Cookie is—and promises to them that they will never again have to visit that place. They will be safe in the Garden. Forever. The new armor is wonderful. It's a bit heavy—Sugarfly Cookie can't exactly fly correctly, or fly at all. At most, they can hover, but that is alright. Being closer to the Garden is better. Having direct contact with the sweet clouds will surely help. No wonder it takes so long for Pavlova Cookie to heal. He can fly. But Mother did not give him new armor. In fact, she did not change anything about him at all, it seems. At best, she talked to him, and that was all. She told everyone she taught him a new lesson.

("But still, Pavlova Cookie is hurt. He still goes to the Outside World. But he has to. It is his job.... I feel bad for him. He is the only one who can go into the Outside World. He is the only one who can escort the outside Cookies to the Garden. He must witness the pain and sorrow from that world, and must go directly to Mother so she can help him. The Other World is cruel. But it must be this way. Pavlova Cookie is suffering. He mistook his Happiness. He wanted to cry not because he felt understood. He wants to cry because he is a Cookie of the Garden. And we are not to look upon or feel pain. And yet he does. He is the only one who does... While thinking about Pavlova Cookie, something happens to my heart. Something blooms within it. It is not Mother's Happiness. It feels like it droops lower than my wings with this new armor. This.... This is from the Outside World. This... is the disease that Pavlova Cookie is ill with. I contracted it, too, when I went to that sickly place. It... hurts. But in due time, because I am forever in the Garden, I will heal. Pavlova Cookie still has jobs to do. I will happily do anything he asks me to—I must help alleviate his pain. ...Oh, Mother has the same look upon her face when she taught him the new lesson. Pavlova Cookie will get too close to the Outside World—That is why he does not want to lead the outside Cookies back to their world. He does not want to get more sick. I understand. I will escort them for him while Mother reeducates him.")

...

"Pavlova Cookie? Come closer to me," says Eternal Sugar Cookie. "...Yes? You called for me?" responds Pavlova Cookie... ...with fear in his voice. He knows that he was wrong. Pain and sadness can be felt by Outsider Cookies. Of course they can. It originates from their world, of course. ("I hope 'Mother' will heal me this time. I hope it's not just telling me things I already know. That her plans are absolute, that her plans are very planned out. That she knows what she is doing. All I want is for 'Mother' to heal me like Sugarfly Cookie believes. But not like the sculptures... And don't restrict my flight.... And don't ban me from ever visiting the Outside World... No. No, that is impossible. I am useful. I am the only one who has this job. I am useful. I must be kept in this job. I must be doing well. Mother will pardon one mistake. She will keep me in this role. She will. She has to. It is..... healing me. It makes my heart full. Surely, she knows that. She understands me. ...

I keep thinking about Sugarfly Cookie and I's exchange before those outsider Cookies left. I asked if they remembered the pain that cannot be healed... They did, they do remember it. Because we both have it. We both have the disease that came from the Outside World. But... that's what Mother says. To me, I think it's not a disease at all. It helps... It... helps. And no one understands. No one but Sugarfly Cookie, and even they are on the fence about it...") There's a crazy amount of dissonance here. Of ambivalence. I hope you guys are getting what I'm putting down. It's sort of hard to explain to be honest. ...I want to talk about this.

[Image ID: A screenshot of Pavlova Cookie's dialogue from Cookie Run Kingdom. There are two sides of the image, left and right. Left side says the word "Victory." Right side says three quotes. In order, the first is: "Love always wins!" The second is: "Ahh, the power of love!" and the final one is "With love, Pavlova Cookie!" End image ID.]

I want to talk about that last one. "With love, Pavlova Cookie!" Who says their own name? Why would you do that? It's because he's quoting someone else. "With love, Pavlova Cookie!..." said Eternal Sugar Cookie, during one of the "reeducating sessions." It's like she's telling him, reinforcing into him that he is not doing any evil. He is not doing anything bad. Spreading Happiness can NOT be bad. Ever. Shooting arrows at others is not bad. Killing monsters is not bad. Winning, even if the "stubborn Cookies" resisted, is not bad. You won. You achieved victory. And you did it with love. I see a lot of posts talking about the statues/sculptures. I want to add to this.

[ Image ID: A screenshot of a decor from Cookie Run Kingdom. Name of decor: Tender Dream Raspberry Jam. Visual Description: A statue of a Sugar Angel ontop of a raspberry jam jar. Has a small amount of jam on its right wing and head. In-game Description: "May your slumbers be happy in the Garden of Delights! Eternal Sugar Cookie herself has crafted these intricate jars of jam to keep Cookie protected from pain and suffering for all eternity. It is said that this jam tastes like the warmest memory of your life. Those splatters of jam on the statue…? Don't you worry, sweetest!" End image ID.]

I want to focus on the end part. The splatters of jam. So... this is just pure confirmation that these transformations are painful. They bleed. They are in pain when these happen. Have another one.

[ Image ID: A screenshot of a decor from Cookie Run Kingdom. Name of Decor: Sweet Slumber Blueberry Jam. Visual Description: A statue of a Sugar Angel on-top of a jar of blueberry jam. A blue tear comes from its right eye. In-game Description: May your slumbers be happy in the Garden of Delights! Eternal Sugar Cookie herself has crafted these intricate jars of jam to keep Cookies protected from sorrow and suffering for all eternity. it is said that this jam tastes like the fondest memory of your life. Why does the statue look like it's crying…? Those are happy tears, sweetest!" End image ID. ]

The fact that there's two of them—different ones—with either jam or tears... insinuates that there's different types of "petrification"? One that gives physical pain and another that is emotional? That's just a theory though.

[ Image ID: A screenshot of a decor from Cookie Run Kingdom. Decor Name: Sugar Peacock. Visual Description: A purple peacock with seven tails. The peacock's eyes are closed, but eyes are on the ends of the tails. One eye per tail. In-game Description: These majestic birds with feathers of sleek, shiny candy walk gracefully around the Garden of Delights. With their eyes constantly closed, it may seem as though they are dreaming—but make no mistake: their real eyes are on the tips of their tail plumes. Day after day, these eyes witness happy faces. But… what happens if a face is not happy?" End image ID.]

"What happens if a face is not happy?" Another case of "any emotion except for Happiness is bad" in this place. And apparently, peacocks symbolize beauty, divinity, power, confidence... and "the beautiful things of life." Wow.

[ Image ID: A screenshot of a decor from Cookie Run Kingdom. Decor Name: Mashmallow Candy Pillars (Top). Visual Description: Two pink pillars hold up a small part of a pale white ceiling. The pink part looks soft. In-game Description: A soft marshmallow wraps around a sturdy candy pillar making it completely harmless in the event of a sudden collision. The sensation of its plushy embrace upon impact has some Cookies dreaming of turning this pill-ar into the pill-ow of their dreams… but will they ever succeed?" End image ID.]

Ohhh man. The "pill" part of those words are getting singled out. This inspired the whole "sickness/illness/disease" things above. Like, of course this society would have parallels to sicknesses. They literally heal others... but I didn't expect this in this description.

[ Image ID: A screenshot of a decor from Cookie Run Kingdom. Name of Decor: Winged Tree. Visual Description: A tree with purple angel wings as its leaves. In-game Description: "No one is ever busy in the Garden of Delights! Why soar in the sky when you can slumber in the shade of this tree? Legend has it that is how this tree gained its wings—the previous owner no longer needed them." End image ID.]

"The previous owner no longer needed them..." ...What does this mean. What does this mean??? Does Eternal Sugar Cookie just straight up... you know...? I mean, I guess it makes sense. You can hurt your people as much as you want because they are in the realm of healing and stuff. It won't matter how much pain you experience because you can just get all of that wiped away.

[ Image ID: A screenshot of a decor from Cookie Run Kingdom. Decor Name: Swimming Tooth Rock. Visual Description: A tooth that can…swim… Apparently these are creatures in this world. In-game Description: This Toothling has rotted from drinking too much grape juice flowing through the Garden of Delights. However, it still will not stop, despite the pain… Perhaps, it lives as a testament to the phrase, "All is good in moderation." End image ID.]

...So are we just going to say that everyone in the Garden is raised to be masochistic...? The phrase "All is good in moderation" and like there's no moderation? They genuinely think it's good for them? Is this what this means?

But, yeah, anyway. I think this is crazy. Not to mention the music. I find it absolutely fascinating that the boss battle theme is a remix of the like, main theme of the place, I think. I know that makes sense, but... something about the boss battle theme just seems so... conflicted. The good that you know suddenly becomes bad. Everything you've ever lived for twists itself into disparagement by Eternal Sugar Cookie in-front of your eyes. It feels like the truth is coming out, yet you have a vague idea of said truth... It feels like you don't know which one to believe in.

But anyway. Sorry for this whole very extremely long post. Maybe I'll come back to this again and/or start posting my other ideas about stuff. I didn't even talk about Hollyberry or Eternal Sugar's relationship. My thoughts on it are probably.... different than others. I'll just say I like Eternal Sugar more than Hollyberry. ...Which..... is interesting, given that I don't exactly *like* like Eternal Sugar. Anyone else think Pavlova Cookie and Sugarfly Cookie see each other as siblings btw? Anyway. I'll stop rambling. This has gotten long enough.

[uncanny-tranny]

This might be a weird piece of advice, but instead of complimenting somebody (especially children) with an overarching, nonspecific compliment (like "smart" for example), it can be better to compliment somebody for their effort or for the work they have done.

I was always complimented as the "smart kid," and was always doted on for being "smart," but I found that it really stressed me out as a kid because being "smart" was a good thing, but I had no idea what they meant by it. I stressed out about it because it felt like, at any time, my status as The Smart Kid could - and would - be taken away at anybody's discretion. I wish my efforts in being a Smart Kid would have been highlighted, because maybe that would have made me feel less like my status mattered rather than my efforts.

[butt-puncher]

I wish that I was more

[day-mark]

at least watch the clip before commenting about it

https://x.com/DNI_lowkey/status/1901922848681161008

youre right that i shouldve watched the clip before talking about it, but im afraid this still changes very little on how i feel about what they said.

you know if tub.bo had gone into the stream with this attitude instead maybe things wouldve been different. also changing your mind means nothing to me if it's not admitted privately to the party affected, and frankly also publicly in this situation considering how much of the harm was done publicly

disclaimer none of this is directly quoted

sad that there was no middle ground to be had between him and dream/sad he realized they wouldnt be able to reach and agreement and become friends again -> i added this later in the tags of my original post, but there could never have been a middle ground to reach with dream when he refuses to give dream even the tiniest benefit of the doubt. the entire time he reacted to dreams stream, he assumed nothing but the worst despite repeating over and over that he would be fair, multiple example i cant be assed to bring up, but him assuming dream didnt defend punz automatically and then being told no, he did defend him. or reading into why dream removed the mention of caiti when all it was was that dream interpreted the end of the sentence differently. dreams concedes multiple times to tub.bo but not once does he extend that same attitude to dream. hell he got mad at dream for using his own clip of saying his friends shouldnt be making grooming jokes

the stream humanized dream and it would make their audiences put down the pitchforks - i find this extremely ironic given that what came out of tub.bos streams instead was mass dehumanization again to the point where someone said he could queerbait because he "operates as a business". also no, having dream on stream does not humanize him to your audience if you again, only are on the offensive and take issue with every single thing he says. also basically having this attitude of "well I tried my best to humanize him to my audience" but sitting back and watching them spread misinformation and "dream is an evil manipulator" and saying nothing means nothing to me.

neither side was mature/this couldve been ignored - braindead fucking take. "ah yes, lets ignnore the situation We Provoked by repeatedly calling dream a groomer, trump supporter, etc'" harassing someone until they snap and then turning around to go "oh neither of us were mature, we shouldve been the bigger person and ignored it 😔" is idiotic and shows zero self-awareness. i cannot tell if they are that dumb or if its intentional at this point.

jack saying there was never a middle ground and he was proven right that they could never be friends/didnt work as friends and he was glad he didnt prematurely cut ties with someone he couldve made amends with + he distanced himself a while ago - also stupid when he is one of the worst offenders of bringing dream up "days since jack mentioned dream" anyone? sure you could distance yourself and sometimes you just dont get along with people but then the reason he doesnt like dream that he cites is that he made a joke to George about being the reason for his success and repeatedly made poor taste jokes about dream and punches down on him Constantly. sorry but this does not scream "being mature about distancing yourself and simply having different personalities that clash"

comments its weird how much people care and that they dont care - motherfucker you actively fueled it with your repeated "jokes". the "red flags" they harped on about in their Other podcast episode. also if you dont care why do you keep fucking bringing him up. even before this whole situation

tubbo realizing he exaggerated his own emotions about the situation because of the stream and afterwards realized they were all stupid - again. this would mean more to me were this not a paywalled podcast and if he acknowledged it Publicly. also idk, making another comment about how unlabelled people cant be queer weeks(?) after the stream does not scream "i realized i overreacted and was immature about this situation"

jack doesnt want to stop making "little jokes" because theyr funny and tub.bo says and as long as its not malicious - does not scream "distancing myself from dream and wanting to move on" also how many fucking times do we have to say that calling someone a groomer (especially when people already actively believe this) and a trump supporter is not "a little joke". at this point it doesnt matter if jack is not being malicious, his audience will take it as such and continue their hostility.

yeah sorry but with their recent behavior both before and after the stream, this means absolutely nothing to me. this still screams that they dont understand the harm theyre causing and frankly dont Want to understand, they want to keep using dream as their punching bag. if they truly want to be mature about it then fucking act like it. they have flipped between sides too often for me to think this is anything meaningful, i mean hell tub.bo couldnt even decide on if dreams a trump supporter or not in those streams(and yeah if it was a joke that "haha oh idk actually he might be a trump supporter" it was not funny and made things worse bc his audience is braindead and will take it as gospel". like im tired of them pouring gasoline on a situation or hell even Starting The Damn Fire and then turning around and acting like they didnt.

also i find it hysterical jack said tub.bo seemed miserable at the end of the stream and was wondering why he would do that to himself, when he does not stop tommy from doing the same thing and at some points even encouraged/fed into said behavior making him miserable.

also the entire queerbaiting conversation and comment made after is utterly unacceptable to me and its not something im going to forgive with no apology or understanding regardless of what they think of dream

i might come back to this to add/change things, im at work and this may be incoherent rambling*

[arisveah]

why dont people like annabeth?

a common theme for athena stories is wisdom vs emotion, strategy vs ties, etc. and annabeth is subject to that theme as an athena kid.

she can be single minded, and do shitty friend things in pursuit of a plan- and it makes sense for her, because all demigod children inherit a little bit of their parents attitude (percy:rebellion,nico:grudges,butch:organic, etc.), but her greatest failures consistently come from emotion- NOT her fatal flaw, hubris. but she cares- a lot. she cries after leaving cerberus. she declares percy a friend after not a week of knowing him. she offers to sacrifice herself for his mother, because thats what matters most, isnt it? if annabeth cared a little less, she would have known luke was the lightning theif from the beginning. she was smart enough for it- but who wants to believe their longtime freind/crush/brother would do something bad? thats crushing. if she cared a little less, she never would have tolerated tyson long enough to trust him. she only compromised because percy cared about him.

if annabeth was some cold bitch, why would she have tackled the manticore? what strategic value is there in being kidnapped? that wasnt for her, it was for her friends. and then, she took the sky from luke. because he was in pain, and she's always had too big of a heart. its why she ran instead of just dealing with her father. rejection is just so much for a little kid. and of course she hoped for luke. hes the person who shes known the longest, who she depended on for years and years and who never once failed her. of course she hopes, and she tries to save him. he would've saved her, she thinks. but when he comes to persuade her, she still turns him away. she still chooses camp, even though they must be suspicious of her at this point- not only is she the traitors oldest friend, but she went and got "kidnapped" and was found at the enemies compound! people are bound to be suspicious of her.

and then, battle of the labyrinth- she gets her very first quest. a chance to understand what happened to make luke the way he is. a chance to prove herself in the eyes of her absent mother, and everyone else who wonders where her loyalties lay. and for the first time, luke fails her directly. he interferes with her quest and prepares to send her to a fighting ring for entertainment, and she barely gets away with her team. it turns out that they need a clear sighted mortal to navigate, so its not even really her glory. she learns luke plans to work with an ancient torturer. she loses percy, and she cries as she lights his shroud- she flips out when he comes back, because annabeth is not a girl who likes to feel vulnerable. she doesnt have the time. she grew up being constantly told her fears were illegitimate, and then she was on the run with two other minors. one of them died. she cant afford to be vulnerable. nonetheless, she takes a knife for an invulnerable man without a second thought. strategically, inadvisable. she just cared too much.

percy is taken. shes alone, again. and shes devastated- everyone in tlh is nervous to speak with her, because she just seems so worn out. sad, defeated. volatile.

she doesnt like to be caught vulnerable. its a little late for that though, so she wears tearstains like scars.

the whole reason she was pulled into tartarus? shock. she was too relieved to take in her surroundings, and she fell for it. begged percy to drop her, to leave her, and he refused. i think thats when their relationship really started to solidify for her, because she gave him an out and he. didnt take it. she wasnt left alone. and thats why the whole mark of athena quest was so hard for her, because throughout it she was completely and totally alone. abandoned as the catacombs she walked, seeing the lonely remains of those that came before her and meeting isolated priests. alone. lost.

and then bob showed up, and chose her and percy even after he regained his identity. damasen chose them, and fought against his own father for them. three times in a row, she was chosen.

i think the effect of tartarus on annabeth should be talked about more. it was Hell, and it was the home of 2/3 people who've ever chosen to fight for her. she was accepted, and she saw the ease with which another could do as the torturer of the hundred handed ones did. she drew a boundary, without experiencing the negative effects of avoiding it, for the first time in her life. in hell she was chosen, and in hell she finally drew a line in the fleshy sand saying: "i wont let you become this"

i bet she wishes she told luke. i bet that for a second, the briefest of seconds, she saw him in percy. i bet there was never anything as relieving as seeing him nod, hearing him agree to try another way. watching him choose the least brutal way to get around his situation. i bet she worries, each time she sends someone out, that there will be collateral damage- like how camp was a collateral, like how thalia was collateral. i think shes terrified. i think the pit soothed that in her.

[blackpilljesus]

What I've learnt from the opposition that keep winning:

Radicalisation > Justification: Like a lighter igniting a wick and the flame spreads, put your thoughts & actions out there and mobilise the existing base. Many women spend too much time disproving moids claim or trying to "fix" them and not enough time on us. The right dont waste their time trying to change minds unless they're making money from it, they run off vibes. People didnt vote trump because he had an amazing campaign they voted because what he stands for could benefit them & they know it by looking at him & his history. Dont waste time getting into arguments or going onto their platforms to debate. The main times RWs spend time countering others is on their own platform where they also get paid for it. Add in inflammatory speech. Use catch phrases. I've changed minds not by directly convincing people but just doing me & speaking with convinction. I post stuff that can teether on the extreme side even when I thought I'd lose my followers. Idgaf how absurd it sounds I stand by it.

Your mistakes dont matter: based on the above point, people will still ride with you if they believe in what you stand for & it resonates with them. When their shortcomings are brought up they switch the topic. They dont come out with apology essays on why they were wrong or justifying themselves. Focus on your aim & work with people that'll advance it & ignore those who wont: The right will use whoever to get to their aim. Doesn't matter how much they disagree, if they've got a common goal they'll put other differences aside to get to it. Then the right ditches them after. Many GC "feminists" voted trump for TRA issues (even though they wouldn't work with libs for other womens issues lol). Part of why the left is so divided is because they expect all round perfection from everyone involved then the purity contests start. Speaking of the above, many of us focus on imperfections & it's not that deep.

Excuses dont matter: Roe fell during a democrat presidency. Trump elected a justice during election season even though obama was told he couldn't do the same. Regardless of who won the US elections the right would still actively be trying with their aim whereas when biden won in 2020 many got relaxed. Too much time is spent theorising & rationalising other people's actions rather than just recognising the threat and focusing on how to neuter it.

Dont underestimate the threat/enemy: Many people thought Harris would win, everywhere I looked it was trump stumbling over his shallow rallies. Trump was made out to be an idiot with no shot at winning both in 2016 & 2024. The right are called stupid but they're actually strategic; the maga slogan, trump & other RW leaders narcissistic personality that is absorbed by many, playing on people's egos, etc all played a part in their win. Another case of unestimating opposition is people claiming white women vote against their interest & were just these clueless damsels who need saving when it's actually in their interests to vote the right. This twitter thread explains it well and this tweet summarises it.

White women were not voting against their own interests. Their men are paying their bills, raising their family, and keeping them on top of a pedestal above other women. They did what needed to be done for security.

People thought that after 2016 there would be a change but nah. Even seeing this with 4B, women think it'll change maIes if they do it underestimating what would actually go down.

Get in the real world: Speaking of the above, be wary being in too deep in echo chambers.

There was another reddit post from a trump supporter that was probs deleted as I cant find it anymore but it said a similar thing. Again it seemed like Harris would win based on the news & peoples reactions online. She even had a ton of popular celebrity endorsement. It's hard & as beneficial as online spaces can be, the real world is where it matters most. Work on having money & resources for yourself and to help other likeminded women. Work on defending yourself in the real world & trying to improve the situation around you irl instead of wasting time online discourse. These things can be useful but it's easy to ingest excess amounts that delude you.

Hit 'em when they least expect it: Women have a tendency to announce their every move and tbh I'm guilty of doing this too & have made efforts to stop. MaIes strike out repeatedly when it's least expected. Dont announce to maIes how you wont be around them (thus giving them time to prepare), just do it.

Persistency & consistency is key: Despite all the hate podcasts, manosphere, PUAs get - they're persistent. Most times they dont respond to it & laugh at the haters to belittle them. They enjoy our anger & keep going. Dont overvalue the hate you get, have an agenda separate to people's validation - it will help greatly with the first point.

Win at any cost: MaIes, the right, religious people etc will do whatever it takes to win. Any violence, any bloodshed, any infrastructure toppled even if it comes with their demise they're willing to risk it all because the things they believe in give them a purpose in life and they see no purpose in the alternatives. I ain't putting it on anyone to do these things, but it does work going all in. Very few on the left or left leaning are willing to risk their lives (not just physically but even their social status) for what they believe in and would rather win by playing fair while the opposition do not care about the rules.

(Edit) Forget the logic, sometimes - Initially left this off but seriously similar to the above point just go for it. There tends to be a lot of over analysis & perfectionism when it comes to going after what we want & honestly fuck that. Despite claiming to be logical, actually the opposition just run off their feelings and go after what they want anyways (which is why there's so many double standards & holes in white/maIe supremacist logic that gets endlessly analysed but it doesn't matter in the end). These systems of oppression didn't form overnight it took numerous trial-and-error but a lot of people in our camp are so quick to give up after a setback. If women can be delulu about porn obsessed jakey they can be delulu about liberation if they want that.

Now overall I know that the world is generally dominated by conservative ideologies such as the family unit, anti abortion (until a moid wants a woman to get one), religion, capitalism, etc and have institutions & systems that have been solidified over the years to push these things which gives them a huge leg up but the above points are just things I see that additionally contribute to their success. Adopt some of these and we could move forward. This is not to praise the right nor do I think they're perfect but just simply observing what's working.

[steveharrington]

alright it’s the next day and i’m sober now so here’s what i liked and disliked about the gg finale

well i liked very little. BUT as a chair hater im kind of obsessed with the fact that they got married specifically so blair wouldn’t have to testify against chuck—i think that’s genuinely so fitting that their wedding was rushed and their marriage was spurred on essentially as part of a scheme (suggested by jack fuckin bass of all people) because like yeah. of course they got married to achieve a goal, specifically for chuck. that’s the only thing that makes sense, considering they’ve spent the last 5 years constantly coming up with reasons why they can’t actually be together. i truly believe they would never have gotten married and would have kept delaying it forevermore if doing so hadn’t benefited chuck directly. it’s never just about love or romance with chuck and blair even to the last second

also did like dan’s narration for the reveal! the reveal is stupid we all know this but if it HAS to be dan i enjoyed the way they explained it and that the narration switches from kristen bell (i did scream a bit seeing her on screen) to penn badgley like that was fun. and i liked the emphasis on moments from s1 where dan was fucked over by being on the outside like losing the dartmouth usher position to nate with the matching narration where he talks about how you can only be part of the UES if you have a birthright “a birthright i didn’t have and my greatest achievements would never earn me” like yes baby. you could never win in this system. so fuck it he had to get creative as you ALL KNOW i stand by dan humphrey.

it’s kind of a logistical mess but him confirming that jenny knew he was gg the entire time is kind of cute like i love my humphrey siblings. it makes no sense! but i love the thought of them doing this together

ummm what else did i like …. hmmm …… i guess i liked that rufus and lily had one explicitly Nice Moment for a brief second just to establish that there’s no more animosity ……. or whatever

okay that’s it now for everything i hated. this was by far The Most rushed episode of television i’ve ever seen. i feel like they wrote this episode in ten minutes. the way chuck being a fuckin fugitive takes up the entire first half of the episode and then gets explained away by them saying “it actually all worked out!” oh okay well how convenient? same thing with the fallout of dan being gg…..a literal five minute conversation about the biggest reveal of the show that affected all of them personally and serena says “well i was upset…but then i realized im fine with it” OH OKAY? great. perfect.

the way they felt compelled to pair everyone up at the last second. for AGES i’ve known that lily ends up with william and ive wondered how on earth they’re going to explain that…oh and the answer is that they dont! shes just suddenly with him! same with GEORGINA AND JACK? please someone save me from this fucking hellscape i’m trapped in. dan humphrey voice what happened to phillip? the only person to end up alone is nate which is really funny because i think nate is like the most capable of having a genuine romantic relationship at this point in the show……but whatever. he’s going to be Mayor of New York City. sure. ok

let me talk about blair for a second. let me please talk about blair for a second. blair ends this show….wrapped up in a storyline about chuck. having her dream wedding compromised for chuck. telling him “oh it’s fine i already got my dream wedding!” when we know that the louis wedding ended horribly and it was like traumatizing for blair and she wanted more. once the wedding is out of the way the only other bit of blair plot we get is her being the only one like truly mad at dan for being gg and AGAIN being told by chuck “it’s fine don’t even be mad” and being told by dan “the whole time i had more power than you” then the conversation just kind of ends.

blair waldorf is not a character who would end her series being told how to think or feel by the men around her, nor should the show try to convince us that dan was ultimately this powerful puppet master who was above her this entire time, taking her agency, then throwing that into her face with a little smirk. it’s a grossly misogynistic concept. it also unravels five prior seasons of genuinely good writing where we built up the most important dynamic of the show TO ME: blair and dan

for the first five seasons of the show, they are each the best representations of their respective worlds. blair is The upper east side queen—she is old money, she schemes and manipulates to get what she wants, she has access to every luxury or amenity she could ever want. dan is (by the narrative’s reality, explicitly stated many times) cut off from the UES world because he is not wealthy and he does not have an esteemed family name. he works hard in school only to lose opportunities to classmates ranked below him with better family names, he can’t afford to take serena out for a fancy dinner, he tries to consistently do the right thing and finds manipulating people to be wrong.

watching dan and blair interact from their first ever meeting in 1.02 is like. captivating. watching them judge each other and try to understand each other and the genuine fondness that they have for each other when they do get to that place of understanding, even as early as 1x04, is very special. both characters are learning and developing and having their worldviews change when they interact. their relationship is formed on a foundation of genuine respect and affection they have for each other—wealth or lack of it has nothing to do with dan and blair falling in love. they fall in love because they match each other intellectually, they’re passionate about the same movies and books and art, they emotionally support each other, and the fact that they’re from these different worlds doesn’t deter them, because they understand each others worlds better by being together.

and if the writers don’t want them together romantically at the end, sure. fine whatever. but to end dan and blair’s carefully built, slowly developed, amazing arc of development with blair telling serena “don’t be with dan, he’s not one of us” just undoes all of it. yanks blair back five years right back into season one episode two when they first met. and the sole reason is so she can end up with chuck—they have to justify why she would abruptly leave this supportive genuine relationship, so they have to make dan and blair not understand each other again. suddenly. after their understanding of each other was the best thing to come from this show.

and when we break blair and dan up for the sake of chair, that leaves dan single. so by gg writer logic, dan has to be with someone, so let’s have him get back together with serena despite the SEASONS worth of again very well written demonstrations of why they do not work together romantically. but oh…if dan and serena are together, of course their parents can’t be together. so let’s break up rufus and lily after SEASONS of one of the best, most romantic and passionate slow burns i’ve ever seen so lily can end up with the guy who like almost killed her.

the hatred i have for chair is so deep because i genuinely think the insistence on making them endgame had a domino effect that ruined every other relationship in this show. it’s crazy. like ive never seen anything like it on tv before—torpedoing ALL of the well written and developed relationships that the writers and actors worked so hard on. at the literal last second. for chuck bass.

fml!

[luffyvace]

Zoro x male reader headcanons

from my list on my profile :)

btw keep in mind there will be no ‘dom’ in this relationship for these headcanons. i have nothing against it as long as it’s still sfw so don’t be afraid to request that :).

zoro wouldn’t stand for a weak s/o

he doesn’t wanna have to worry for you

so if your weak he’ll make you train with him

and if your not ‘great! let’s spar!’

it doesn’t matter if you use swords or a weapons at all

yall gon spar.

y’all prob fight even more than him and sanji at this point

but not actually angry fight—spar fight

he’ll even teach you his no swords style if he has to 😭

also he’s not a huge cuddle bug or anything but he’s always warm

he’ll grunt if you snuggle up to him for warmth but won’t move you or anything

another thing—he always has your back

especially in fights

not really in petty arguments with other people tho

he might join in on it but not on your side

just to tease you

but you know he means no harm

except for with ero cook

then he’ll team up with you

😭

zoros love languages are quality time and acts of service for sure

zoros quality time looks like working out together,

trying to understand whatever hobbies you like

drinking contests

sitting in solidarity silence

and his acts of service is

saving your butt in battle

going shopping together

any little favor you need really

if your carrying something heavy and almost drop it he’s got you

he shows he cares in little ways like that

zoro is the one to tell it like it is in the straw hats

like he did when usopp left

and he won’t be afraid to call you out on your crap if your wrong

hes not trying to alienate your or something

he just wants you to realize what your doing and change to be a better person

youll have to stop him from getting into trouble btw

like the time he almost shanked charlos

and you always makes sure he doesn’t get lost :)

may or may not come of with nick names for you depending on what you look like/do a lot

like with sanji and ero cook

but they’re less insulting

if your a more excitable person he won’t mind same with being a chill person

hes indifferent about a lot of things

hes chill with 90% personalities and 100% of looks

the 10% of personality he doesn’t like is sanji’s

apologies to sanji kinnies :)

you and zoro kinda always end up going wherever the other goes

like y’all are always together but like not on purpose

it’s cute to robin and nami

zoro would open up to you about his past a good amount of months into the relationship

but it won’t be at random

itll probably happen after you open up to him about yours

then he starts thinkin

’should i tell him?’

he decides he’ll take the opportunity when it comes to him

it was a much needed conversation that let him get a lot off his chest

especially about kuina

he never directly told anyone about who she was

he always just says i promised someone

or his childhood friend

but he never went into depth

which is just even more confirmation that he really loves and trusts you

communication with him is actually pretty good

some topics might get skimped though

if he does something you don’t like subconsciously

dont hesitate to come to him about it

it won’t offend him

he’s a tough cookie anyways he’ll be alright

plus he’s all about betterment

so he’s open to criticism as longs as your being genuine and not sarcastic

he’s also most likely to take it if it’s from you

yall trust each other with y’all lives 100% on another note

if you wanna go on dates?

ya mean drinking contests?

nahh jk

but it won’t be anything sappy because he refuses to take any advice from love cook

just chillin somewhere peaceful on an island

hopefully you have navigation skills or at least not his sense of direction so y’all don’t get lost 😭

don’t let him lead btw

he’ll try to and insist he knows where he’s going

no he dont

stop him

you have to be stern or he’s going his way

hes kinda stubborn

you love that part of him too tho

💖

i’m proud with the way these came out!

i hope any guy that reads this enjoys because there is 100% a lack of male content- so here you are! :)

[ceasarslegion]

You know what, yeah. Inflict her on the masses. I'm not naming her for obvious reasons but you and I both know she deserves it.

This actually isn't the same person you're thinking of

Years ago, I made a Bill and Ted server. Things were chill, except that there were a few people who were. Very weird about jokes in the main server. I'm of the opinion that teenagers can handle a few sex jokes, considering it's not porn and they tend to know what genitals are and the basic concepts of various sexual acts. I very much remember what it was like to be a teenager in that regard, I dont close my eyes to it or pretend that I was an innocent baby until the stroke of midnight on my 18th birthday.

As such, I tend to define 18+ channels in the servers i make as "where you post your porn and how you like to be porked" and things like sex jokes and funny stories of a non-pornographic nature are fine in the main server. And furthermore, I define "pornographic" as "for the purposes of getting off," not "something where sex or nudity exists within."

I have a funny story about a hook up gone wrong where long story short, the girl i was hooking up with accidentally shot directly into my open eyeball. This obviously and immediately killed the mood as I shrieked in pain and we both ran to the washroom to try to flush the baby making juice out of my eye. I was okay, she kept apologizing profusely, it was fine. It became a funny story later.

There was someone in the BnT server who i had told this story to in the past over DMs, and i forgot what I had said prior to this, but it led them to pointing and laughing and saying "SO NOW CUM EYE WANTS TO PREACH TO US" and I yes, anded it by going "SHUT UPPPP IM NOT A LITTLE CUM EYE BOY!! IM NOT!!!"

Apparently, this was the wrong thing to say

Because I immediately got a bunch of messages and pings from this other person shouting about how i was being gross and overly sexual "around minors" and then kept pinging me demanding I delete the entire interaction lest I like, corrupt all these completely innocent 16 year olds (of which there were i think 2) who would just be SCANDALIZED and TRAUMATIZED if they found out that these grown adults had engaged in sexual activities in the past! Honestly how dare I, I basically posted CSAM

[shigayokagayama]

serizawa !

Sexuality Headcanon:

i think that he is bisexual <3

Gender Headcanon:

i actually really like transmasc serizawa

A ship I have with said character:

sigh. ok. look. i like serirei, i think it can work really, really well if done right. i do not like how a lot of fanon serirei content feels more like a vehicle through which to explore reigen. either its "people projecting onto reigen to put themselves with blank slate big hunky gentle shy guy who will comfort them when theyre sad" or "people who are attracted to reigen treating serizawa as a blank slate to project themselves on because they convinced themselves x reader is cringe". and like obviously its fine, people write stuff for themselves, youre not obligated to write big indepth character studies when youre making ship fics. but theres so much of it and its so hard to find anything thats not that.

also i think dimple x serizawa is underrated ok bye

A BROTP I have with said character:

I FORGOT TO SAY THIS IN THE MINEGISHI ONE i always feel like these two were really close at claw. theres a line that- i cant tell if it's a wonky mistranslation or not- but minegishi says something about owing something to serizawa when they save him and that combined w the fact minegishi wouldve been like 16 when they met and serizawa is good with kids... dies.

like ive heard people say "they mean he owes mob something" but unless its mistranslated "i still owe him one" is directly linked to "i dont want to boss to end his life" when he's catching serizawa so it wouldnt really make sense if it was about owing mob?

A NOTP I have with said character:

sighhhhhhhh ok. i will prelude this with "i do not think it is on the same level as shipping pedo and/or incest shit and it's weird to treat it like it is". seritoi makes me deeply uncomfortable and i do not trust people to be normal with it to the point where will probably block people for posting it.

A random headcanon:

the first time he and reigen got drunk together reigen told him he didnt have powers but he got so fucked up that he completely forgot he said that and serizawa is trying to pretend he didnt say anything and that he'll tell him sober in his own time but it makes it every exorcism so fucking awkward

General Opinion over said character:

i like him soso much like. as someone who was in a very similar "i dont want to leave my house because im paranoid about being hurt and people hurting me" rut for a not insignificant chunk of my life having a character like that who isnt treated as a joke and is treated as a person with feelings capable of growth who solidifies his place in the world and makes friends... man....

[am-i-the-asshole-official]

AITA for turning off a plant light?

so i (25nb) have been staying at a friend of mines (A, 28m) house (which he also rents out to 3 other people, also friends of ours, B, C, and D) for a while now while i look for an apartment. i pay A $250 a month in "rent" which is a courtesy thing more than anything for internet use and to sleep in his living room and am not considered a tenant (plus no rental agreement or lease has ever been offered to me or signed by me). i also help around with household chores (dishes and keeping the living room and kitchen tidy).

in his living room he has this wall of plants set up on shelves with lights and the whole shebang. he has the lights set to 12 hour timers so they have their own sort of day/night cycle. where i sleep normally is a daybed in the corner so the lights dont really bother me when they turn on (around 9). he recently purchased a really bright LED that has a brightness setting that the package has to warn you to not look at directly even at low settings. its genuinely comparable to staring directly at the sun in the summer at noon it's so bright. this light is also on a 12 hour timer (comes on at 10).

here's where the problem is. when my girlfriend comes over the daybed is too small for both of us to sleep comfortably in so we sleep on the pullout couch... which is directly under the Bright Ass Light. we were up pretty late that night (4am) and didnt really want to be woken up by the light shining directly in our eyes so before we went to sleep i turned the light off. i planned on turning it back on when we woke up (around noon) but got distracted and forgot to. A came downstairs while i was showering for work and chewed B and my gf out for the light being off before he went to work. he sent me a message saying "don't touch my fucking light" a few minutes later and i responded by telling him that if it wasnt so bright directly in our faces i wouldnt have to turn it off. he told me the light was for a desert plant so it had to be bright and that i would just have to deal with it as it was non negotiable. i told him to put it in a renter's agreement if he wanted to make demands like that and he told me he would deal with me when he got home from work.

when he got home from work i asked him how work was and he responded by flipping me off, talking at me for about 10 minutes about how i had a lot of nerve telling him what he could and couldnt do in his own home, especially since i was (according to him) making threats and demands. he said it wasnt his problem that we wanted to stay up late so it wasnt his problem that we didnt get enough sleep because it was shining in our faces in the morning and that id just have to deal with it. B, who was in the room at the time, asked if A would like it if a light woke him up like that, and A said no he wouldnt, but that the plant light is different because "the plants need the light cycle". B pointed out that the light was only off for 4 hours, not the whole day, and that plants in the wild dont get that kind of exact sunlight. didnt seem to matter to A, since while he set the timer back an hour so it would come on at 11, he also said he didnt want me ever touching the light again. i was (still am) completely astonished by this whole thing because its... just a plant light. it wasnt off all day and it doesnt happen all the time (this is the second time ive turned it off, again because i was sleeping under it).

so... aita for turning off the Bright Ass Light?

What are these acronyms?

[autisticlalna]

yesterday in the SBK Community Discord: i dont think cloning is, uh, ethical

(...says tumblr user autisticlalna.)

the question of the hour: why is Olm so dead-set on keeping people out of Limbo?

the discord tossed ideas around:

there's something down there he wants to keep hidden

he's trying to starve and weaken the Void so more potential pawns fall through

he's trying to keep people away from Avid

..although that last point brought up the question of "okay, why send Avid up, then". which i do have thoughts on but that's for another time, because the conversation shifted to: okay, then what's the deal with the clones? how does cloning people keep them out of the Void?

and then Avid weighed in.

THANKS, AVID. WHAT THE HELL

obviously, chat explodes. as tends to be the case whenever something like this happens. in the midst of the oncoming chaos, someone suggested mind control as a more "direct" solution. i mean, that's basically what he's doing to the clones anyway, so it's not out of the possibility. Avid shot it down:

OH.

OKAY.

we've seen Order 87 mentioned before.

we've seen it in the Avid Adventures discord, back near the start:

and we've seen it in the SBK discord itself, after Trog got tubed:

and i swear i remember a scene of Avid getting spooked and bolting away from somebody while yelling it, but i can't find a clip so you unfortunately have to trust me on this one.

but it's also been hinted at indirectly:

They?

okay, let's pull back a bit. a theory-slash-interpretation floating around had been that Olm had given Avid the order to "stop people from falling into the Void" and Avid had been the one that escalated it into tubing and cloning people.

but now we have confirmation that, no, that was Order 87. Avid was told directly by his boss to do all of that. as a reminder, Avid is still in contact with Olm:

"Give me... two weeks. Give- A week? Give me a week, I'll turn them around-- Okay. Alright. Okay. Okay. I love you too. Okay. Goodbye." ("Yo. I think he loves his boss.")

wait, okay, quick diversion. "Give me a week, I'll turn them around". this conversation happened before Trog's void dive. Trog was at the bottom of the Void for a brief moment from their point of view, but for everyone else they were gone for a week. guess Avid's deadline was up after the End expedition.

so... what does Olm want with a bunch of clones? why is this the plan?

why has Olm assured Avid that this is the way? because that phrasing makes it sound like Avid did think, hey, i don't know if this is a good idea. why did Olm convince him that this was the best option? tubing people i can understand, that's easy to warp into "keeping people safe". how on earth did Olm convince Avid that "making facsimiles of his friends" was a good idea? is it to further drive in Avid's isolation by making him surround himself with copies that also go along with Olm's orders?

but also im now remembering my original theory was that the clones were to fill in the obvious gaps where tubed people would be, and that would still track. after all, Trog got tubed for looking too close, and we have (stream-based) evidence that Cloneby doesn't remember everything Rubyco does. tube the ones that get too close, make a replacement that's more "compliant" and doesn't have the dangerous information. Trog can't tell more people about the person trapped in Limbo if they have no memory of it and no drive to go back into the Void, and meanwhile their original self is still safe and sound.

it's the safety that Avid cares about. he needs to follow Olm's orders if he wants a shot to escape Limbo, but Olm has consistently preyed on Avid's goal of helping people. he used Avid's protective instincts of New Salem to bait him into killing the Dark Lord and accepting the "consequence" of being trapped in Limbo, and now he's using Avid's fear of people getting trapped like he is to get him to do... whatever Olm's end goal here is.

maybe it also has something to do with the now-obligatory final comment that leads to lingering horror:

OH, COOL. THE CLONES ARE VOID FODDER. GREAT

the description of them not being as "potent" is interesting. something about the clones is... lesser. the Void consumes, but is left wanting. when the Void is left wanting, it begins to gnaw away at the bridges. that could escalate. a common idea that comes up in the discord is "what if Avid/Olm/OSSHA is trying to starve/weaken/kill the Void", but... we already have Marm's evidence that if the Void isn't fed with people, it starts going after structures.

if balance isn't restored, the Void might start eating the kingdoms themselves.

...but that's just conjecture. as always, we have pieces of the story, its just a matter of figuring out how to fit them together. honestly, out of Olm's plan, the clones are the part im most worried about. Cloneby creeps me out, and Avid's casual comment about being able to make more clones and them being less "potent" paints a concerning image of just how disposable they are.

i dont know how to wrap this post up. Avid, i think you have problems.

[disaster-fruit]

You want Jiggy ship gushing? You get that.

So, 3zun!! So much potential! Doesn't matter if you look at it as a tragedy because it all went to hell in a handbasket or if you look at what it MIGHT have been if only a few, tiny details had been different.

There's the heartbreak of Nie Mingjue placing so much trust in him at first only to turn on him later. For understandable reasons, but not very good ones. Except poor Nie Mingjue was a very young man who became a general and had to kill so many people that his sabre made him loopy way early. (I'll die on this hill: Nie Mingjue wouldn't have been that aggressive, that immovable if it hadn't been for Baxia already breaking him.) Jin Guangyao killing Nie Mingjue before he gets killed first, then having to cut him up to stop him from rampaging. Keeping his head - and you can't convince me that he doesn't talk to that head ALL THE TIME because who else can he speak to? I mean, yeah, Xichen, but there are so many things he can't tell him. Like how his family treats him? What he intends to do to his father? About his marriage?

And Xichen? Oblivious. Grieving for one brother and leaning on his killer. Jin Guangyao trying to keep one thing pure in his life by keeping Lan Xichen completely out of the loop. Sure, it's self-protection, too, but I fully believe he doesn't want to hurt him. And ... I don't think I need to go into the tragedy that is their end.

But ... what if things were different? What if someone had noticed that Nie Mingjue is NOT doing well and needs help earlier? Would he have kicked Jin Guangyao down the stairs if they had started trying to help him earlier? Directly after the war? Would it have gone the same - or would he have hesitated, saving both their lives by, for once, not acting on impulse? If that moment hadn't ended the way it did, would Jin Guangyao have killed him? Of course not. He was actively helping before that, we know this.

What if Jin Guangyao had, at some point, earlier, much earlier, cracked at the seams and had told them how he's treated? Or if he had told Nie Mingjue that he misses their closeness? Even if he had screamed that in his face, it would have been better than that horrible, weird politeness that drove him up the wall because it's fake and Nie Mingjue can't handle that. Or if he had been just a little less filial and had said, 'Screw this, I'll never be wanted here, I'm out,' and gone back to either Qinghe or Cloud Recesses. Lan Xichen would have been happy to take him in, that is obvious, but I don't see Nie Mingjue sending him packing, either.

What if Xichen had seen how bad it is between them before it escalates, had guided them gently towards each other, towards each understanding the other until Jin Guangyao stops pretending to be something he's not to Nie Mingjue and until Nie Mingjue understands that they're very different people, but they basically both want the world to be better than it currently is.

So yeah, I see them as a package deal in their canonical drama and in a potential better world where all this doesn't derail, where they overcome what divides them because they all realise it's worth it. Xichen helping them see each other in a different light, and finding himself loved by both as well.

YOU GOT THE DAMN ASSIGNMENT yasssssss thats exactly what i wanted, GUSH AWAY

ngl i never really thought about mingjue being put in that terrible position at a young age (tho to be fair i dont know what age he's supposed to be and i never really thought about him in any dept at all) and that does shed some light on his character in a way i never considered. And i liked the scenario you presented that if yao had cracked and screamed at him his pain it would've worked out better because mingjue can't handle the fak politeness he gives instead.

i guess xichen kinda feels to me (and its my opinion and absolutly an invitation to prove me wrong) the weakest link in the trio? i dont remember in cql him and mingjue sharing a scene until that last arc so i never really bought their closeness (and i havent read or watched anything but cql (yet) so maybe thats the problem. or maybe im misremembering) so that makes the triple drama not hit me much? jgy doing his most to keep xichen oblivious and thus not hurt him is one thing i like a lot tho, nothing like a villan that has this one precious person he could never allow himself to sacrifice or hurt, its always tasty.

[rebellum]

Something I genuinely don't understand is the idea that trans people who were afab weren't socialized as girls because they're trans, and trans people who were amab weren't socialized as boys because they were trans.

Like, socialization refers to the process of gendered enculturation, wherein individuals are told "this is the correct way to act because you are [a boy][a girl]" and corrected and told "to be a real/proper [gender] you have to do this"

Enculturation in general refers to how people are raised into a specific culture, to expect and to follow those norms. Eg as a kid, I was taught that to use the bathroom we sit on the toilet seat and wipe with toilet paper after. In other cultures, kids at that age are taught to squat and to rinse with water with the left hand.

Gender enculturation refers to how people are taught to "do" gender, and the beliefs around gender. It doesn't have to be directly said to them. For example, I was raised as a girl, and my parents were feminists. I was totally allowed to not wear dresses as a kid if I didn't want to. But when I was a little kid, dresses were bought for me for formal occasions. As I got older that involved people assuming I would wear dresses for formal occasions. I saw this in the world around me, in media, in my classroom, etc: girls wear dresses. Boys don't, not because I was told "boys don't wear dresses", but because I happened to never see boys wearing dresses.

The process also of course involves being directly told that you can/can't do something, or that someone of a gender can/can't do something. Eg a boy on a playground tries to play with his sister and her littlest pet shops, and the kids around him (boys AND girls) tell him he can't do that, he's not supposed to do that, because he's a boy.

Gendered behaviours are attempted to be corrected in children through social pressure and verbal or physical violence. Eg, if a boy is interpreted to have feminine mannerisms, the kids and adults around him will tell him to "stop acting like a girl" or will beat him up for "being a fag", actions which further illustrate the following multiple points: 1) you are a boy 2) you are being a boy in the wrong way and failing at masculinity 3) you aren't a girl 4) being a girl is something you DONT want to be 5) being a "fag" (a man with feminine traits, like being attracted to other men) is bad, if you act like this you are a fag or are like a fag, and you deserve to have this happen to you for being the wrong kind of male (one who is feminine)

And, when it comes to perisex* kids, internal sense of gender doesn't actually influence your socialization. It doesn't matter if you're a trans girl or if you're a gay boy or if you're a straight boy who has feminine mannerisms, they are all the same thing: someone who is male who isn't behaving or looking like a male is supposed to.

*this whole process gets complicated when it comes to intersex kids whose status is known by others, because then there isn't a definitive gender that they're actually "supposed" to be. They're often punished for fundamentally failing to conform to sex, rather than failing to conform to the gender they were assigned at birth. It becomes less "you aren't a proper boy/girl" and more "what even ARE you? You're not a proper human if you aren't a boy or girl"

So I genuinely don't understand where people are coming from when they say that trans people were socialized as the gender they really are (eg, a trans man was socialises as a trans boy), or weren't socialized as their assigned gender. That doesn't make sense to me, there's something in that argument that hasn't been explained to me or that I'm failing to properly understand.

[dextixer]

There is no point in discussing Ironwood/Atlas in the fandom.

Since Volumes 7-8 the way that Ironwood and Atlas were written, their actions, whether they were justified or to what extent they were justified and the like have been discussed to death. There is no stone that has not been overturned, no statement that has not been made, no argument that has not been disected.

Regardless of ones stance on the subject, there is nothing left to discuss, the only thing left at best is sharing ones interpretation and opinions on it with people willing to engage with them. Or it would be, if there were actually such people left.

Around a week ago, against my own better judgement i once again engaged in an Ironwood discussion, something that i have mostly avoided for nearly a year, and i got just the right reminder as to why exactly there is no point in discussing it with members of the FNDM, and especially the fanatics.

They do not care about the show, how its told, what it told us. What they care about is to show how "moral" and "morally upstanding" they are by repeating the same mantra over and over. "Team RWBY are heroes, Ironwood is a fascist.", its both to show how morally "good" they are and also to protect the writing of a product that they love, because their beloved product possibly being deficient would be seen as a personal attack on their taste.

Lie and Lie again, if that doesnt work, lie once more

One of the most important factors in having any discussion is for both of the people talking to not only be truthful with one another but also agree upon some level of common ground that a disagreement comes from. In the case of RWBY, an Animated show, one has to agree with what is canon, what we can see in the story, from where on we can start arguing about interpretations. The problem however is that many people in the fandom, in regards to Ironwood especially, do not care about canon.

This being one of many examples. Since as far back as Volume 7, when we saw Ironwoods forces, everyone could look back to Volumes 2-3 and see that Ironwood brought 3 airships to Vale, a small detachment for the security of the festival.

Yet time and time again, RWBY fans refer to it as an "army", implying some kind of excessive force, in fact, some people in the past have went as far as saying that Ironwood was MILITARILY OCCUPYING Vale with his forces, i am not kidding.

But the most often directly lied about scene is of course the scene of Ironwood abandoning Mantle. In the show, after seeing the chess piece, he encounters a seer left behind in his office, this seer allows him to talk to Salem who pretty much tells him she is coming, which is then confirmed by the Ace Ops saying that the Grimm sensors have ceased working. That is canon. And yet, many a RWBY fan often pretends that Ironwood takes his decision after seeing the chess piece and "conveniently" ignore the chat that Ironwood has with Salem.

Fans of RWBY will not hesistate to lie about the canon itself to make their point, for people who claim to appreciate the shows writing, they will often directly ignore or even contradict it just so that they could hold true to their moral obligations.

But what happens when lying doesnt work?

Misdirect, Motte and Bailey and bad faith

When direct lying fails, RWBY fans will often take a different stance, instead of directly talking about canon, they will instead make the most bad faith assumptions and arguments imaginable.

This often takes form in Omissions or other less direct types of lies. Many times, it wont even be lies, but the most riddiculous arguments that they dont themselves believe.

For example, saying that soldiers helping to protect an event from terrorists is a stupid move.

In Volume 7, one of the earliest things we see happen is that Ironwoods forces are fighting against Grimm, the Sabyrs when they breach into Mantle, after which Penny shows up to assist in cleaning them up. And yet, fans of RWBY will say that these soldiers were not meant to protect people against Grimm, they were meant to abuse the citizens of Mantle.

The same goes for the curfew that also gets established in that same Volume. It is done explicitly for peoples protection. They instead say that its to control people, implying that the threat of Grimm isnt real? Which is exceedingly funny since COVID lockdowns happend near the same time, which were also curfews that meant to protect people.

Ironwood shooting Oscar is also a key part of such misdirections. Often times when RWBY fans talk about Ironwood shooting Oscar they refer to him as a "child" a "defenseless child", conveniently ignoring the Ozpin shaped hole in his brain.

This is yet another form this takes. Strawmanning and of course, the reference to "Ironwood runs away" argument, which they hold as true despite the show never stating it ever. They take Ironwood statement that Atlas will always stay out of Salems reach as a direct statement that Atlas will just rise and stay away. And not for example become a flying city which is also a possibility.

This is also another example of dishonest arguments. RWBY fans pretend that Ironwood is classist, that he only wanted to save the rich and leave everyone else to die. Despite the fact that Ironwood ordered Mantle to be evacuated into Atlas and only wanted to leave to save as many people as he could regardless of status. And yet, they have to pretend that he only cares about the "rich".

But the most often seen tendency among RWBY fans in regards to argument is something else.

Doulethink

Doublethink is acceptance of two contrary opinions being right at the same time due to ideological reasons. For example, decrying someone as weak when convenient and as strong at the same time.

And RWBY fans love this type of argumentation, especially with Ironwood.

As shown before in a picture, they pretend that Ironwood only cared about the rich. And yet they also argue that as a fascist he hates and controls the rich by how he treats Jacques.

They will both pretend that Ironwood is a sociopath who wants to control the world and at the same time will claim how sorry they feel about his PTSD and how he clearly should have been thrown out of the army due to it.

Ironwoods prosthetics both show how he suffered so much and should have been told to sit out due to his clear mental issues, yet at the same time those prosthetics prove and show how evil he is, how he wants to replace his body with metal because he wants to be an unthinking machine.

They will pretend to care about how Ironwood holds 2/5 seats on the Atlas council, decrying how UNDEMOCRATIC he is being, yet at the same time, when convenient they will constantly bring up how Ironwood did not ask for Ozpins persmission for his actions in V2-V3. They pretend that he usurped Ozpin despite Ironwood acting directly under Vales council.

As shown in this exchange. The cries for "democracy" quiet down all of a sudden when people take Ozpins side against Ironwood. Suddently, the opinion of the council doesnt matter, only Ozpin does. Oh and this is also an example of how they will change the topic once an argument is lost.

Oh, and of course, their favourite is in regards to team RWBY.

Who are at the same time both small teenagers who know no better and cannot be judged for their actions because they are smoll beans uwu.

And they are also literal jesus.

Because NOTHING says "we are being honest" when the protagonists are amazingly "weak" and "smoll" uwu beans whenever anyone criticizes them for making shit decisions for entire COUNTRIES which they CHOSE to do. And at the same time those protagonists are amazing badass girbossing jesus-like heroes who everyone should worship.

Ending word

I guess what im trying to say is that there is simply no point or hope in arguing about Ironwood, or hell, even arguing with RWBY fans in general unless you are in relatively neutral spaces with people who are willing to listen. They will lie, if they cant lie they will misdirect, and they will never be honest about their beliefs. Because their true beliefs are only "RWBY is good and what it attempts to say is correct". Nothing else matters. RWBY is good. Its messages (no matter how mangled they are) are good.

And to protect those beliefs RWBY fans will do ANYTHING. Because just like religious fanatics, they have faith, a belief, and nothing will stop them. If you oppose them, you are everything they think is evil. If you accept their words uncritically, then you are now a "friend".

[this-acuteneurosis]

Dunno rereading things, had a thought. for your third times a charm, Jee is a really, really fun character that adds perspective and distance to everything going on along with the hey how important all this nonsense is. Good Job. Nice choice of perspective. Im curious how difficult you find that having perspectives of characters that directly interact in the same space. for dont look back, we get Leia, Anakin, Obiwan and Padme pretty regularly and each perspective IN each other sight and actions

Not gonna lie, point of view can be killer, and I feel like I've grown a lot the last few years as I've worked on it pretty carefully. Jee's characterization was definitely helped by me writing all of For Want of Skywalker first. He's got a lot of similar vibes to Piett, being a professional who just want to do his job, but works for One of Those kind of people. In a really bad situation.

Don't Look Back has been tricky because when I lived in the delusional wonderland where the story was going to have one single part and be finished in about 200K words (yes, my beta is still laughing at me), I was determined to have it be told exclusively from Leia's POV, with a hint of Anakin at some points where Leia couldn't be around. I still keep the POVs pretty limited because I think some of the tension in the story is held by not showing you things from Dooku or Palpatine or even Bail's POV. I've had to extend the POVs in Blood of Our Father and Duty Bound because it just wasn't plausible to move certain plots along while limiting things to only Leia and Anakin. Also, I wanted to give Padmé more agency to act, and it's a lot easier to show her growth from inside her own head. Especially by hanging around her while Leia isn't there.

My general rule has been, as often as possible, keep it to a "Skywalker" POV, with Obi-Wan and Padmé making honorary membership. That's really going to break containment here at the end of Duty Bound, and at the start of the next arc. But I'm still working on keeping the list of POV characters as narrow as possible.