#ismarus

[katerinaaqu]

Ismarus! Ismarus!

Another random inspiration I dedicate to my friend @artsofmetamoor Title inspired by the cry of Alexander the Great's army when they ellegedly telled "Thalatta! Thalatta!" ("Sea! Sea!") out of delight to reach the sea while here it is spoken in a different manner altogether

Odysseus was feeling his stomach unsettled and that was not normal for a man like him who as used at the movements of the ship. The storm was very severe after they left Troy. Perhaps, though, it wasn’t the storm itself that made him feel seasick but rather the timing of it and the conditions that brought the storm to their way.

“The storm happened right after the departure from Troy…divided us. Gods, this godsforsaken war! Blasted war!”

He remembered he prayed to Athena for forgiveness on the events that occurred at Troy. His brain was still turning like the top making his already turning stomach even more unsettled than it should be. All the scenarios, all the “what if”s and “what if not”s were roaming around his mind like the voices in the nightmares he was getting!

“I should have said something!” he thought for a billionth time to himself, “That girl was innocent! Blasted Achilles! Blasted Neoptolemus! Blasted war! I should have said something in the council! I should have stopped them! Agamemnon tried! Why not I? Why not I?”

For some reason he was numb; the massacre of Troy had taken all life out of him. Upon the news of the interpretation given by Calchas that the spirit of Achilles demanded his own tribute, Odysseus couldn’t react. He couldn’t say a single word of objection to the council. He had found no reason or energy to oppose anymore… He remembered Polyxena, the way her eyes became glassy with death as Neoptolemous pierced a knife through her tender heart. He remembered he had to hold her down. He realized all he could do was to plead for them to give her a painless death! Hecuba went mad in sorrow in his arms…he still remembered her screams! He still remembered the cries of Astyanax as he fell off the walls…he remembered the accusations of Andromache at Troy! His stomach turned again and this time he couldn’t keep it in. He leaned to the edge of the ship to throw up whatever contents he had left in his stomach (which wasn’t much, he noticed. He barely had some acid in there for they hadn’t eaten anything for days because of the storm!). He felt Polites’s arms to his shoulders.

“You okay?”

“Yeah…” Odysseus lied mopping his mouth with his hand, “It is this blasted storm! And we haven’t eaten anything for days. That is not good for seasickness…”

His lie came easily to his lips. Many of his men also suffered after all so it wasn’t completely unbelievable. Polites nodded as well so that would be enough for now (even though he knew Polites had heard him moan in his sleep many times over as nightmares plundered his mind ever since the sacking of Troy or the events that followed it). He looked around and inspected the sad condition of his companions. The storm had blown off several of their provisions too and the rich gifts from Troy, or some of them at least. They probably also lost a couple of slaves in the sea. At least he noticed all his 12 ships were together so their fleet wasn’t divided from their own, even if he lost sight of all the other fleets of the Greek army.

“The gods are angry! Gods please…please have mercy on me! I just…wanted to go home… I didn’t know… I didn’t want any of this to happen!”

He was lying to himself and he knew it. He was ready to pay the price. Truly he never expected how high it would be but deep down he knew that just his ploy with the horse was bound to cause some anger to the gods. He just hoped that Athena, who blessed his wits with inspiration, would somehow be by his side. However after the slaughter and the human sacrifice, he couldn’t hear her voice anymore. What was worse, the winds divided them and the southern wind brought the severe storm that pushed them towards the north instead of the Aegean islands as they originally planned, so that they could travel south. And the storm had caused not only damage to the ships, but also made them lose plenty of provisions. It was obvious that they were out for some failure or some sort of a misadventure because of those.

“Blasted Troy!” he thought again, “You stole 10 of my best years! You stole my son from me, my wife and my home and now you pushed me to the edge! You made me a criminal to the eyes of my goddess! Blasted Troy I hope your ashes will never revive again! May you and your holy walls never raise their heads again like it happened after Heracles!”

“Now where the hell are we?” he wondered out loud, shading his eyes with his hand to see afar

“I do not recognize these waters…” Eurylochus said apprehensively, joining them, “I see no land around”

“But I do, look!” Odysseus pointed out

Eurylochus squinted his eyes to see (Odysseus feared that he was becoming a bit near-sighted with age. He was actually surprised his own eyes remained sharp as always). Indeed there was a land formation coming up from before them.

“You’re right!” Eurylochus said excited, “Finally we get some land to stop! Inspect the damages”

Odysseus leaned against the hull in deep thought.

“Last night the skies were dark. I couldn’t use the stars for guidance but the last time we were in Troy we had southern wind. It didn’t seem to change drastically so we should be heading north”

“You think of the island of Tenedos?” Polites asked

“No, this seems longer coastline than that. From where I am standing, looks like the mainland.”

“Hold on, are you telling me we are heading to Thrace?” Eurylochus suddenly seemed worried

“Most likely” Odysseus agreed gloomily

“Dammit!” Eurylochus mumbled, “We are heading towards enemy land again, then?”

“Perhaps. Not all Thracian tribes sided with the Trojans at the war but, truth to be told, they did support the Amazon raid. They didn’t have a reason to stand against them”

“So, in short, we’re screwed?”

“Perhaps…” Odysseus mumbled again feeling nauseous once more, “Perhaps not”

“Either way, we have no choice” Polites stated the obvious; “We need to stop to land. Our provisions are not enough to support us till the islands the way we are and we will need to inspect the hulls and ropes”

“Yeah…” Odysseus agreed, “Elpenor, jump on the craw’s nest! Your younger eyes will be useful now! Tell me what you see!”

Elpenor immediately obeyed, climbing to the mast from the ropes. He might have been the youngest but also he did have some good geography knowledge. Odysseus appreciated that. He looked towards the horizon and soon enough he could detect taller walls around a city, no doubt, surrounded with mountains. He didn’t need to have knowledge to know what it was.

“ISMARUS!” He announced on top of his lungs, “ISMARUS!”

“Shit!” Eurylochus mumbled banging the hull of the ship

Odysseus had to agree. They didn’t know much on Ismarus apart from its strategic importance for the Thracians. However he also knew that the people in it were called Cicones, the tribe of people that was spread across Thrace but called Ismarus some sort of capital city for them. He also knew they didn’t like to share their wealth with outsiders and they had no reason to like the Greeks. Quite frankly, they preferred to guarantee a safe passage to the Amazons for Troy rather than sheltering the Greeks on their way there. Once more he gagged, for some reason, causing Polites to try and support him at the sudden move but this time it was certain there was nothing in his stomach to come out so he just sighed to collect himself.

“Damn…” he mumbled more to himself than anybody else, mopping some sweat off his forehead with his hand

“Do you need some wine?”

“No, thanks Polites. I am fine. This is just a….reminder. No worries”

The land of Thrace came in sight and so did the walls of Ismarus. Odysseus could see from afar that the walls were consisted on a rough stone base and clay and wooden upper parts. He rubbed his beard in thought. He could see the smokes of the chimneys too. He couldn’t see much from inside the city itself but he noticed some clay outlines of the houses and some hay roofs like an average coastline city. It was nothing like the strong structure of Troy that was for sure. The city was built almost directly on the beach, making the position really strategic for someone who wanted to connect themselves with the sea, however the back was protected from the winds by the rough Thracian mountains. In theory it was cutting the line of escape from the people who wanted to flee from an upcoming catastrophe of their city. He gasped at his thoughts.

“What in the blasted hells of Tartarus am I thinking?! We just got out of a slaughter of a city and all I can think of is what we can use if we need to raid this place! What’s wrong with me!?”

The war was still in his system, he knew. Sacker of Cities, that’s how they called him back in Troy. Apparently he was thinking like one all the time now. Apparently his men were reading his thoughts or they were having a similar train themselves for Polites came close to him, leaning his large body next to him to the ledge.

“What do you think, Odysseus? Shall we raid this city?”

Odysseus scoffed and forced a smirk to his face.

“You just got out of war, Polites and you already fear you are losing your touch?”

“I’m just saying” Polites shrugged

“Polites is right up to one point, Odysseus” Eurylochus agreed, “The Cicones have no reason to offer us anything and they are half-barbarians. Maybe they do not know the customs of hospitality”

“Don’t they worship Apollo as their patron god?” Odysseus pointed out

“Irrelevant” Eurylochus pointed out, “They didn’t help us at the war now did they? They guaranteed passage to the enemy”

“I mean, who wouldn’t be afraid of the Amazons, Eurylochus?”

Odysseus stretched himself, breathing in the air.

“Either way we need to stop and inspect the damages. I say we send an embassy and ask for Xenia before we do something.”

“They won’t give it”

“Irrelevant. We need to go by the traditions that separate us from the barbarians, Eurylochus. If they push us too hard, we will make this place burn!”

The words came to his mouth much easier than what he thought they would. Sacker of Cities then…what people in Troy chanted about him was true after all.

“Should we announce our presence then?” Eurylochus snickered

“Oh, I am sure they know we are here. They saw us coming from a mile away! Our crimson sails are not exactly a discreet sight and they have a clear view at the sea!”

As if on the cue there was a shine or sheen of metal coming from the wall. A watchman had moved. Odysseus knew they knew they were here. So far so good, he thought, we shall tie to the bay, go about our business like nothing happens and ask for a share. If that doesn’t happen then damned this city be! They indeed beached their ships and climbed down to inspect. To their good luck most of the parts of the ship were intact. Just a few repairs to the ropes and all would be done; all would be as good as new.

“Gear up, just in case” suddenly Odysseus ordered, “We have company”

A neighing horse was what got their attention, when they managed to catch a glimpse of a man riding like the wind towards the city. Great…Odysseus thought, the meeting would happen sooner than expected. He caught a glimpse of Eurylochus reaching for his hunting bow. He stopped him with his strong hand upon the wood.

“Easy there, Eurylochus!” he said strictly, “Hold your blood lust for now and wait for it. We are being announced”

“But…we are helpless!”

“We are over 500 men experienced in war with our equipment intact. We must not act like headless chicken. But prepare yourselves just in case. Shooting the man now, will bring warriors at our steps, not ambassadors”

Apparently he was right for after a few hours, while he and his men were eating some dried fruit and bread they had with them, they heard the horses once more but this time they were more than one. Odysseus eyed them and placed the helm over his brow. He nodded to Polites and Eurylochus to come closer and to one or two captains from the other ships. They approached the riders on foot. Odysseus noticed their colorful clothing and their tattooed bodies. His resolve that they would actually give them hospitality was not determined in the first place but now he was almost certain they wouldn’t.

“Hello there!” he greeted the entourage, “I hope I am speaking to an embassy of peace. We are travelers and we seek shelter”

The man on the horse didn’t come down. He only barked some words in his dialect, which Odysseus didn’t recognize to its totality.

“Look…given that we do not speak your language and I can possibly recognize one or two words here and there, I suggest you to bring us an interpreter if we are to talk openly here”

He didn’t know if that was what his tone was doing; maybe he was coming off as more aggressive as he wanted to, the man on the horse spat at his feet. Odysseus looked up at him.

“Great…” he mumbled ironically, “This negotiation will not get us far. I seek passage for myself and my men. In the name of Zeus and Xenia. We bring gifts to exchange. We desire only provisions and hospitality”

“I will give you gifts!” said the man in his heavy Thracian accent

“Ah, marvelous. So you DO speak our language” Odysseus said mockingly again, “We are making progress”

“Your banner I recognize!” the man said again in his broken Common Greek, “You raid Troy, that did you!”

Oh shit… Odysseus thought. Our reputation precedes us. The man seemed furious.

“Outsiders have no place here. More Greeks who raided Troy!”

Odysseus’s eyes darkened. It was as if just the mere mention of Troy was bringing all his blood to his head; making his pulse practically hammering inside his eardrum.

“I understand you despise us and our nation, that much is as apparent as the sun above, my dear friend. I wouldn’t make such preposterous offer unless it was of outmost importance and a matter of survival for me and my men. You protect your city and I protect them. Our interests should be aligned instead of colliding”

Odysseus realized that war was inside him. He knew the man was not fluent in Greek so he felt like using every official or long word he knew, hoping to confuse him, impress him or piss him off even further. He didn’t know which. Apparently happened the latter for the man spat at his feet once more, glaring daggers at them.

“You and your kin go!” the Cicones ambassador roared, “We give no shelter to traitors here!”

“Careful, my dear man” Odysseus now replied feeling his patience running short, “Zeus punishes those who disobey his law! And you speak to those who, as you said, stepped their feet into the holy castle of Troy! Your little town will not be that difficult to take, that much I guarantee you!”

“Leave this place!” the man replied

He stirred his horses and trotted away. Odysseus remained silent for a second. Yes, the insult was great to take, even if he deep down knew indeed they had no reason to like them in the first place.

“Captain” Eurylochus spoke again, “Shall we gather up the captains and negotiate our next move?”

A tiny essence of smirk played to the corner of his lips. He wasn’t sure if it was some weird eagerness and battle fever or whether it was just himself being sarcastic at his own attachment to that. Either way his eyes followed the trotting entourage of Thracians going back to their city.

“Sure…why not?” he heard himself whisper.

*

“The city doesn’t seem overly protected” one of the captains pointed out, “That could indicate protection from the inside. I am not sure if I would risk a confrontation at the walls”

“I double that” another one said watching at the rough sketch of the area they drew upon the sand, “Maybe we can lure them out at the field”

“Haven’t you seen them?” Eurylochus pointed out, “They don’t use carriages or chariots. They fight directly from the horses! Odysseus’s chariot was damaged into the storm but even if it was ready now it will be hard for it to navigate at the plain”

“Odysseus, how many people do you estimate the city to have?” one of the captains asked

“Hard to tell” the king of Ithaca admitted, “The city seems well-built but not too big. Worst case scenario it would be of around 4000 people”

“The odds would still be 4-1” Eurylochus pointed out, “We are not enough for it. The odds are not bad but they are not very good either”

“Indeed which is why I hope the most optimistic estimation is the correct one. Let’s say around 2000 people”

“But, Odysseus you count in women and children?” Polites asked

“Yeah that’s right. If we say they are around 2000 in there then logically half should be women and children”

“That leaves is around 1000 men and possibly a portion of them are warriors”

“That makes the odds 2-1” Eurylochus spoke again, “Sounds much better for us”

“Yes…if they remain within the walls…”

“We must send a scout team just in case, to see the weaknesses around it”

“Guys!” Polites now came in, “We are talking as if we shall begin the attack already!”

“Do you see another option, Polites?”

Odysseus hummed in thought.

“Well…in theory we could avoid the bloodshed if we took the course across the mainland or till we meet the islands…”

He made a move with his hand as if saying “maybe”

“How many provisions do we have?”

“Maybe for one week?” Polites suggested, “And that would be if we reduced our food to the minimum and hunted”

“In a Cicones forest?” Odysseus commented, “Right…”

“Perhaps fishing then?”

“That could work but it is not sustainable on the long run” Odysseus thought out loud, “We have also the slaves, the men and the horses to feed. In theory we could make it to another port before our provisions ran out but…”

“What guarantee do we have that we won’t run in the same problem?” Eurylochus pointed out

“Exactly. And besides…” once more that almost automatic smirk played to the edge of his lips, “The refusal of hospitality when someone makes plead to the gods has consequences. They know it! There is plenty of food there for sharing and we have things to return their hospitality with but…”

He hit his fist on the ground.

“Yes, I believe we must charge as soon as possible while the sword is flaming hot!”

“What are you planning?” Eurylochus asked again, “Surround the city?”

“It could work but we will run out of provisions before they do and we are cut off from the rest of the world here. I will not risk it all in a siege”

“And I refuse to spend another day waiting for cities to fall! I’ve had enough! Gods refuse to help us. We need to do something of the situation we got ourselves through. Our men are too many to feed. I cannot risk another open sea passage!”

He caught himself making excuses about it to himself; as if trying to justify the actions that he was already planning but in the end of the day perhaps it was true after all; he was the Sacker of Cities; a man of war. Perhaps that was what was left of him after the massacre…after all the atrocities he had to indoctrinate or perform in the holy city of Ilium. Athena was by his side back then; other gods were as well. He knew it was wrong what happened and yet the gods were with them. He didn’t understand why now…why now they refused to hear his prayers or rather he didn’t want to accept that the whole ploy would turn against the entire fleet and not just against him! He was afraid and worried; what if that indeed befell upon his family? What if the sin he prayed so much to Athena to protect his family from was to be fulfilled? What if Athena didn’t heed his desperate plea at Troy? Because Achilles wanted a concubine and because Calchas couldn’t keep his mouth shut!

“Agamemnon! Gods, Agamemnon now I understand you! This man predicted not a single good thing for us in his entire life! He made us both monsters who sacrifice virgins to the void! Cursed his name! Cursed his legacy!”

Polites smirked, unaware of the turmoil in his soul.

“That’s right! We have Odysseus with us! He took Troy in one night! I am sure this will be child’s play for him!”

“Why, thanks for the faith, Polites…” Odysseus said ironically, “I hope I will live up to your expectations!”

“You already have a plan?” Erilochus now pitched in, flabbergasted

“Perhaps…” Odysseus murmured thoughtfully, rubbing his beard, “I might have something but we need to organize ourselves quick”

“Yes sir!”

“And we kill no women and children!” Odysseus said, his eyes suddenly darkening

“Polyxena…Astyanax…Hecuba… No! No more women and children! Penelope… My sweet Telemachus…Ma… No, no more women and children!”

“Yes sir” the others agreed

“No rapes, no violations! Am I clear?”

“Yes, sir”

“As for the city…”

He stopped. His eyes were bottomless. His heartbeat was steady. The nausea of guilt had passed; suddenly giving his gut the weird sensation of the bloodlust he felt in battle when fighting for his life. However now it felt different.

“…Burn it down!”

“Yes! Let it burn! This and all the allies of Troy! Cursed city! If only it was never founded by the immortals! If only it never rose again from the hands of mighty Heracles! Yes, let them burn! All of them!”

“Yes sir!”

Odysseus filled a cup of wine. He took half a sip and raised it up.

“And let the blood of their men be upon their hands! So it was written, let it be done!”

He poured the rest down to the sand. The red liquid was almost immediately absorbed in the golden sand of the unfriendly land. It only left a red stain behind.

Like the blood that was shed in war.

~*~*~*~

So arguably one of the most controversial to the modern eye action that Odysseus did after he left from Troy was the conquest of the city of Cicones Ismarus. I am surprised I do not see more people talk about it! In the Odyssey, Odysseus doesn't specify the reasonings behind the attack but it is left to be assumed that it was for piracy; so that they would plunder provisions for the safe passage. I tried to see how that would befall so I started the story with the general outline and then try to figure out how they would go.

Cicones were tribes of Thrace and Thracians were known for their great skill in riding horses among others. The exact location of Ismarus is not known although it is connected to some landscapes in Thrace.

Odysseus referring to the contempt and to Adromache or even to some events, it is a wink to my story Guilt Part2 The momet of madness of Hecuba are based on sources such as the tragedy Hecuba and other roman sources but also a wink to a fic that I had in mind for the far future, kinda like a light spoiler.

Like before as I mentioned to my gift story to @dionysism once more got inspired by the same composer Kostas Kapnisis for this one. Specifically for the scene where the Cicones spy runs to warn the city, I was inspired by the piece "Ξεσηκωμός" ("Rise Up"):

Language or dialect barrier between Thracians and Odysseus was just another thing I thought I could add to make the story more believable. Also Odysseus being kinda an ass as well even if he is suffering deep down.

Usually I do depict his positive traits and sneak in his negative (for example in my story about their escape from Polyphemus). So now we have also a bit more negative traits with sneaking in some positive as well.

The Cicones being a potential ally of Troy or at least assisting them is purely my invention here in an essence that Thrace and places like Themyscyra (if that is among the Skythians) are close to each other geographically and potentially culturally too at some cases.

Odysseus mentions "more than 500 men" because undoubtedly they did suffer losses at Troy. Just the bare minimum they could (probably around 10% of them or around 80 men)

Part 2 might be coming back soon.

A small mention to amazing people that honored me with comments, feedback or reblogs before: @simugeuge @loco-bird @smokey07 @adrift-in-thyme @marieisnothere12 @dilutedh2so4 @freetyphoonfire @tunguszka20 @ilov3b00kss0much @fangirlofallthefanthings @cr4zy-cycl0n3 @superkooku @shafeeyaart @hermesmoly @insomniphic @blueflipflops @venomspecs @theyugiohfanartistwritersblog

Sorry if I forget anyone.

[psychicbluebirdmiracle]

*listening to imsarus*

*SCREAMS AND CRIES*

[epicthemusicalstuff]

What do you think about:

“The Not So Epic Saga”

This would be all of the cut songs/different versions of existing songs all in one saga.

Note: Some of the songs Jorge didn’t like but a majority of them are cut because they don’t catch the seriousness of the situation.

I love the idea of it! Jorge has mentioned it is a possibility sometime in the future that he might release some of the cut songs! If he does though the Not So Epic Saga would be a great name for it! (Even if the songs are indeed Epic)

[specialagentartemis]

Events in the Odyssey, ranked by how often they show up in retellings and adaptations

I have read, watched, and listened to many an Odyssey retelling in my day (my day = the last month or so) and I have noticed some Patterns.

Iconic Odyssey Momence™

These are the defining episodes of the Odyssey. Every adaptation of the Odyssey HAS to have:

The lotus-eaters

The Cyclops

Poseidon is Angery

The sirens

Scylla and Charybdis

Mix-n-Match

If there is a little bit more time, a little bit more dedication to faithfulness, or a little bit more mature target audience, these are the important events that fill out the narrative:

Circe

Calypso

the bag of winds

Penelope weaves the shroud

the journey to the underworld

Odysseus returns home and murders the suitors

the Trojan Horse, if the reteller remembers that that story was actually relayed in the Odyssey

Deep Cuts

Really only the completionists include these:

Athena hangs out with Telemachus

Nausicaä

the men eat the sacred cattle of Helios (this is such an important moment in the poem and comes up in adaptations weirdly rarely)

Telemachus dicks around in Sparta

Literally nobody ever includes these

I had no idea these were a thing until I started reading the Odyssey:

raiding the Ciconeans on Ismarus

the Laestrygonians

Telemachus dicks around in Pylos

[idiotwhotalkstoomuch]

Love how for all our speculations on what Apollo's part in God Games could be about we speculated the cows, the sun, Troy, Ismarus and yet somehow forgot he's the god of MOTHERFUCKING MUSIC

[gotstabbedbyapen]

APPARENTLY Apollo would have been addressed more in the earlier Epic drafts (he didn't get more lines but he is honored in a song)

If the Ismarus raiding arc was kept, I wonder if this would be the beef Apollo would have with Odysseus in God Games. But then his priest (Maron) already forgave Odysseus so there's no point for Apollo to be mad anymore.

Anyways, I can see Apollo fighting with Jorge about the removal of this song.

Apollo: Keep that song. Keep it!

Jorge: But it'll make the musical too long!

Apollo: I don't care, you have to keep it! It has my name in it!

Jorge: No, I'm not keeping it!

Apollo: >:( *gives Jorge music block for a month*

[lyculuscaelus]

The reason why the Telemachy isn’t included in Epic the musical (at least, the Wisdom Saga. I’m not sure if the lyrics of Hold Them Down will be changed), is simple.

Telemachus went to Pylos and Sparta seeking his father’s whereabouts. He learned that Odysseus were stuck on Ogygia from Menelaus, who had heard from Proteus. This part is of course changed into Athena’s time dive in Love In Paradise. So, it’s not for Telemachus to find out. It is different from the Odyssey while still serves the purpose of locating Odysseus. (And having Athena as the one to find out makes more sense in Epic, since she is the one who hasn’t been updated on Epic since the Cyclops Saga)

Another thing to think about is the role of Nestor and Menelaus in the Odyssey. They’re like an anchor between the Iliad and the Odyssey, filling in the knowledge of the return of those heroes we care about. It’s just like Odysseus’s meeting with Agamemnon, Achilles, and Ajax in the Underworld. Meanwhile, these heroes are only mentioned one line each in The Horse and the Infant. That is because they do not serve as part of Odysseus’s journey. And Epic is about Odysseus’s journey, not just the exterior but the inner one as well.

So, the Underworld Saga chooses to focus on Polites, Anticleia, Teiresias, and Odysseus himself, instead of having other heroes and famous women showing up. After all, it’s a musical. It’s those who can affect Odysseus’s decisions that’ll be introduced. It’s the same for the Wisdom Saga: Nestor’s and Menelaus’s yapping will only defocus the musical itself. So, the Telemachy is cut from the Wisdom Saga.

At the end of the day, it’s always good to remember that one should not expect to have everything in a musical. Epic has already made sacrifices like Ismarus and now Telemachy to get the story delivered musically. It simply cannot have everything as some are always expecting (partially due to the 40-song length restriction). Maybe things will be different if Jay decides to release songs that sever as DLCs for Epic. Maybe things will be different if Jay decides to go by his original idea of starting the musical with the Iliad, which will certainly brings the Trojan War into focus. But for now—I’ll just blast Little Wolf in my ears while simping Telestratus ship as one always should, because why not?

[roseddraws]

Haven’t seen anyone talk about how the bulk of The Odyssey’s plot is told BY ODYSSEUS. Y’know, Odysseus the liar? Odysseus whose sob story leads Alcinous and his guests to gift him a ridiculous amount of valuable treasures? Odysseus who makes up a completely new elaborate backstory every time someone questions him whilst in his beggar disguise?

What I’m saying is that, yes, he might’ve been spewing complete shit, but that’s boring. A more interesting take is that he could’ve twisted the story to make himself look better

His crew disobeying him and staying at Ismarus for a night, allowing the Cicons to call for help? Maybe Odysseus didn’t really foresee that battle, and in reality was just as careless as the rest

Maybe the six men who were eaten by Polyphemus died not because Odysseus’s plan meant that they were stuck in his cave for a day, but because he was too hesitant or afraid to take action?

Maybe Scylla didn’t take six of his crew because they were too slow to come to a decision when they saw Charybdis. Maybe Odysseus chose to sail past Scylla’s rock, knowing they would die

I dunno, probably someone has brought this up before, but I haven’t seen anyone point it out

[nikoisme]

My bet is that we'll hear Polites in The Underworld after the line "I keep thinking of the infant from that night", because in the cut song Ismarus, Polites approaches Odysseus right after that line

[rrainydaydreams]

Here is more of Jay's commentary from the Underworld saga livestream! Thankyou so so much @bestiainfinita for giving me the link that let me access the chat so I could save it all! <3

Here was the original post

(Also added some context for his comments this time!)

The Underworld:

The kingdom hearts reference is about one of the animations, where Odysseus is looking up at the dead crew members who are in the 'sky'

Here's the link to the song Ismarus

No Longer you

Jay talking about Hellfire

Monster

I *think* the video he is talking about is this one, correct me if I'm wrong

FMAB opening 5

Arcane intro

[jarondont]

Waiting for Love (part 2)

[The journey did not go as planned...]

Part 2: Circe

Things went downhill quickly. It all seemed like a blur to Odysseus — Ismarus, the lotus eaters, Polyphemus, Athena’s departure —

Polites. Odysseus’s eyes moistened at the thought of him.

And on top of all that, Poseidon was after him.

When would this nightmare end?

Odysseus wiped his eyes and sighed, gazing out over the wine-dark sea. He still couldn’t believe what had happened. Ithaca had been right there. His kingdom had been right there.

Penelope had been right there, just a few days ago.

He had been so close to a peaceful life. But his crew just had to open the bag of winds. Now he was once again so far away from home, this time with no idea of how to get back.

But he would try. Even if it would take an eternity.

He silently requested Penelope to hold out for some more, then followed Eurylochus to land.

•••

Odysseus was used to close calls with death. But this one … this one felt different. Sure, Circe had turned out to be helpful in the end, but for a little while, Odysseus had been scared.

Really scared.

But not for his life. He was afraid she’d force him to do the unthinkable — turn his back on Penelope and give in to Circe’s pleasure.

He had made it out in one piece, but he felt as if someone had picked him up, shook him violently, and then slammed him back down on the ground. His senses were on high alert all during their journey to the Underworld.

“Get some rest, Captain,” Eurylochus would advise him.

But Odysseus refused. “You know what happened the last time I failed to keep my eyes open.”

So Odysseus thought of something else to do — something he should have been doing a lot more over his journey.

He opened a drawer back in his quarters, and picking up a blank sheet, he started to write.

Dearest love of mine, Forgive me for taking this much time to get home. I should have heeded the wind god’s warnings and kept a closer eye on the bag. Indeed, I tried to, but sleep won me over. I will not give up yet, however. I will see you again. But that is not what I need to tell you about. See, after escaping the god of tides, we washed up on the island of Aeaea, home of the witch Circe and her nymphs. After Eurylochus went with some of the crew to take a look around the island, only he returned. He explained that Circe had turned the crew into pigs. Although he begged me to do otherwise, I felt it necessary to go save them. After what had happened with Polyphemus, I couldn’t afford to have any more blood on my hands. So I confronted Circe; asked her to release them. But she had other plans in mind. As much as it pains me to say this, my love, I cannot hide it from you. She wanted me to make love with her. I tried to fight her, but even with Hermes on my side, there was so much power. She almost won. Then, at the last second, I thought of your love. Of your wisdom. Of you, and how in my darkest days, you are my power; my drive. I begged Circe to let us leave, to let me get back to you. At last, she agreed. It was a close call, my love. I promise it will never happen again. Now we are headed to the Underworld, sent by Circe to consult a prophet who, she claims, can help us get home. I pray to the gods that our journey will be over soon so I can hold you in my arms once again. I will make it home, my Penelope. I promise. Wait for me.

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[ghostmaggie]

it's wild because even in epic proper there is such a phenomenal and intricate labyrinth of reprises and callbacks and allusions to other songs and melodies and phrases, but there's a certain level of total brain fusion that comes from having obsessively watched and rewatched jorge's tiktoks for years where the melodic riffs and repurposing or recalling of lyrics and tunes that were cut or in cut songs or just tweaked or rewritten adds this whole other layer of meaning to where and how they're used now, intended or not

like all i hear are screams that was originally in ismarus, starting that theme even earlier in the story and it's still carrying on to wisdom saga! plus in its (apparent) first incarnation it was associated with a heart to heart with polites!

where is he, where is the man who'll have you to wife HELLO MAN OF THE HOUSE???? you are the icon you are the moment

and i'm especially struck by telemachus's tell me athena why you came to my aid it's polites's what keeps you up so late at night my friend !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the IMPLICATIONS are INCREDIBLE but they're completely external to the canon body of the official concept album!!!

the layers are so lovely and fascinating perhaps in an even greater capacity because they're inherent and immutable but also in a way absolutely false and optional! it's just awesome! duality! we exist in the context!!!

[epicthemusicalstuff]

POSSIBLE CUT SONG ALBUM?!

(I know I’m a few days late posting this, but we are going to pretend I did this in a timely manner)

JAY POSTED A VIDEO TALKING ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF RELEASING CUT SONGS!

Which cut song would you like to hear the most (Ismarus, Man of the House, Olive Tree, Let Me Your Light- I need them all!!!)

[midnight-drip]

gang!!!!!

"tell me, Athena, why you came to my aid"

it's the same melody as "what keeps you up so late at night, my friend" in Ismarus

!!!!!

i am losing my mind over the Polites references in this saga

[specialagentartemis]

Cut for discussion of rape in Greek mythology

People on this website often push back on the idolization/popularity of Odysseus as a character in Greek mythology compared to other kings and heroes of the Trojan War by saying “he did war crimes, too, he did objectively worse things than Agamemnon but he’s more charismatic.” I think the objectivity is questionable—you can argue he did worse things in Agamemnon, false surrender and killing civilians are war crimes now, but who did worse things I don’t think it’s objective—but aside from the general cultural popularity of the Odyssey, a pretty episodic story about a magic journey full of weird magic events and monsters that is appealing to casual Greek mythology enjoyers in a way that the Iliad isn’t— Odysseus does not have a specific rape story associated with him. And I do think that is pretty important for his modern day popularity.

Like the Iliad starts out with an argument between Agamemnon and Achilles over their slaves that they were very explicitly having sex with, Chryesis and Briesis. Agamemnon later takes Cassandra as a concubine/sex slave after the war. Neoptolemus takes Andromache as a concubine/sex slave similarly. Ajax rapes Cassandra in Athena’s temple. Odysseus’s slave prize at the end of the war was Hecuba, and the way I have seen it portrayed has never been sexual—like, it’s because misogyny, Hecuba is an older woman and has had lots of children and so she’s not a sexy virgin, but like, I’ve never seen that portrayed as sexual.

I’m not trying to excuse Odysseus or say it’s okay to make someone your slave as long as you don’t have sex with them—just making an observation that, I am almost positive this is one of the big reasons why Odysseus is so popular. He has a lot of stories about him, and none of them are about raping somebody. (You can definitely draw inferences from some of his mentions, like a line about the women of Ismarus, but like, the Iliad really starts with an argument over ownership of women that Agamemnon and Achilles have been raping.) In fact, he seems to tend to get sympathy for being a victim of rape himself.

When rape is one of the central organizing factors of discussing the morality of various Greek mythological figures—which, especially in a fandomy space like this, it undeniably is—there’s not then hypocrisy here!

(Why people like Achilles so much, though, that I don’t know. I’m biased though I don’t care about him.)

[greekmythcomix]

The essay question most likely to be asked on Odysseus is ‘how good a leader is Odysseus’ or ‘how responsible for his men is Odysseus’ and the answer, based on the text, is *always* ‘not very’

Here is a Basic Essay plan:

~FOR his being a good leader /responsible:

- tries to get them to leave Ismarus after attacking Cicones

- gets his men back from the Lotus-Eaters, using force in their best interests

- makes stops to take on food and water and ensures crews are well fed, so much so they vote him extra in thanks

- saves his remaining men from Polyphemus by clever thinking and action

- always shares food and loot equally with his men

- after several search parties come to sticky ends, he puts himself into the party and draws lots for fairness

- refuses to abandon his crew to Circe’s magic

- follows Hermes’ instructions to ensure his men are saved from being pigs (yes technically this means sleeping with Circe too)

- chooses not to tell his crew about the dangers of Scylla because he thinks it will cause unnecessary panic

- does tell them not to eat Hyperion’s cattle and tries to prevent them all from dying by begging help from the gods

- gives motivational speeches to try and improve morale (“my friends! We are utterly lost!” 😂)

- can carry *really* heavy stags on his own😉

- is such a responsible leader he attempts to stay awake for days on end to steer them home, and his men only make incredibly bad decisions (opening bag of winds, killing Hyperion’s cattle) when he’s not there to stop them

~AGAINST his being a good leader/being responsible:

- even though he tries to get his crews to leave Ismarus, they refuse, essentially mutinying, and he lets them = questionable authority

- puts his men unnecessarily in danger by insisting on exploring Polyphemus’ island even though they’ve already taken on food and water and even though he has ‘a bad feeling about it’, because their *might* be guest gifts, thus kudos, in it for him

- continues to put his crew in danger by revealing their location having escaped from blinded Polyphemus in order to claim kudos from having been the one to blind him

- continues to put his crews in danger by shouting out *again*, after they’ve narrowly escaped being sunk the first time, in order to further insult the cyclops, resulting in a curse that ends all their lives despite his men *begging* him to shut up

- puts his own life in danger by insisting on hearing the sirens, thus endangering his crew by removing their leader and putting them in the difficult position of refusing his orders (when he begs to be untied)

- doesn’t tell them what’s in the bag from Aeolus… although they should probably assume he’d share it with them if it was loot, because he has set a precedent for always doing that, by not telling them he creates confusion, leading to their mistake of opening it

- doesn’t stop the rest of the ships from entering the harbour at Telepylos, even though he moors outside = again questionable authority

- abandons 11 ships to the Laestrygonians because he cannot save them (ok he didn’t know they were monster cannibals but still, responsibility)

- chooses a more dangerous route when given a choice by Circe, because Jason’s already ‘done’ the Clashing Rocks and Scylla & Charybdis are unclaimed = more kudos for him again, adding to his personal kleos

- fails to prepare his crew for the dangers of Scylla & Charybdis instead choosing to sacrifice some of their lives for his and the rest of the crew’s (return to in Evaluation)

- absents himself at the crucial moment of their desperation in Hyperion’s island, ostensibly to pray for help, but knowing what Eurylochus is likely to do ie: go against his orders and kill the forbidden cattle

(If I’ve missed out some points I may add more later)

~EVALUATION

- although he can’t possibly be expected to know what’s coming (eg: Laestrygonians being monster cannibals), perhaps he should have taken more stock of the way things were going

- arguably, sacrificing some lives for the majority is one of those horribly difficult decisions of leadership, so this might even be admirable (?)

- he does question every decision he makes in order to choose what he considers to be the best course of action…

- …unless if it involves his own kudos, which is his priority

~CONCLUSION

- although he is not without leadership ability, Odysseus arguably makes too many decisions in his own favour, and is directly responsible for the loss of (12 ships x c.50crew each) c.600men, plus uncounted enslaved people from Troy

- and whereas some decisions made by his crew/men can be blamed for events (not leaving Ismarus, opening Aeolus’ bag, killing Hyperion’s cattle), that Odysseus doesn’t/can’t stop them suggests a lack of leadership on his part and/or a lack of trust in him from his men, and, on these events, we *only have Odysseus’s word for it*, as the sole survivor and narrator of these books, which are being narrated for the dual purpose of entertaining the Phaeacians and gaining sympathy from them so that they will help him get home and this is potentially an unreliable source that, like Odysseus himself*, simply cannot be trusted.

*due to his portrayal in every other literary text containing him as a character

I should end this by saying I LOVE Odysseus as a character. He is ‘meaty’, meaning there’s so much that can be discussed when it comes to him. If anything, he’s an annoyingly enjoyable antihero, like Milton’s Satan, or Shakespeare’s Richard III. Though he’s not a tragic hero and is only a ‘hero’ by Ancient Greek terms, *not* modern:

https://youtu.be/rXTecz3PN18