#is angel/angelus one in the same?

[layer-of-slayers]

My main issue with Angelus as the Big Bad is that he was built up as one of the worst, scariest, most sadistic vampires in history and this whole Buffy and Drusilla parallel was set up with the way he stalked Drusilla and killed everyone she loved only for him to do stuff like... use his invite to Willow’s house to kill Willow’s fish, and use his access to Buffy’s house to leave her handdrawn portraits instead of trying to kill Joyce or attack Buffy in her sleep, and only go after Jenny Calendar when she found a way to re-ensoul him.

So: imagine if Angelus did start to go after Buffy’s loved ones and managed to kill at least one person, Imagine if Buffy and Joyce and the Scoobies had that to deal with when a re-ensouled Angel came back in season 3 (Giles was already dealing with that in canon because Angelus killed Jenny, but i wonder if Buffy.would have reacted differently to him in season 3 if it had been someone she was closer to and didn’t have mixed feelings about, considering she partially blamed Jenny for Angel losing his soul in the first place). 

Basically what i’m thinking is: AU where Angelus kills Hank Summers

[abadbadbrujah]

Jane Espenson writing the majority of Spike episodes where he shows positive character growth, the fact that Spike is the antithsis of Angel and that Joss Wheadon hated his popularity can not be by coincidence.

I know I'm connecting a lot of dots with this one (that have probably been connected before), but she quiet literally wrote the episode where he is reintroduced in season 4 with "Harsh Light of Day", where he becomes part of the Scoobies with "Pangs", "Doomed" and "A New Man".

Then later on in Season 5 saved his character with the masterful "Intervention" where in the same episode she writes Spike creating the sexbot he also shows his worth by being tortured (where we see him being penetrated) and not breaking.

In the season 6 episode she wrote "After Life" where we see Spike's trauma of Buffy dying and how he is literally the only Scoobie to be able to look after her after being resurrected, as he himself has gone through the trauma of dying then digging out of his own grave. Also in this episode we see that he has now taken the mantel of Dawn's supernatural protector, out of surviors guilt from the events of the season 5 finale, and then later on how those events have haunted him every night. Jane then wrote Spike to be the only person in Doublemeat Palace to offer Buffy a way out of working there.

Season 7 Jane co-wrote the highly acclaimed "Conversations with Dead People" then "Sleeper" and "First Date" where we see Spike's fall to The First and where he killed people, but also where we see how he has risen in Buffy's eye's to being trustworthy in "First Date".

With all this being said you can probably understand now why I'd say a lot of Spike nuance is credited to Jane Espenson. To quote James in the SDCC 2012 Buffy panel "Joss would come up to me about 3 episodes in to every season and say he has no idea what to do with me", so this meant the other writers (mostly Jane) to take over with writing Spike. So you can see why it's not too far fethced to say she is the reason behind his popularity as she set a lot of the ground work after s2, outside of James's himself giving a masterful preformance. Later on in the SDCC 2012 Buffy Panel she says "we knew we had this amazingly verstial character largely because we had this amazingly verstial actor, we knew whatever we put infront of James he could do..." this shows that she felt comfortable making Spike into whatever she wanted.

For my last point, there's a lot of examples here that the fandom loves to highlight Spike's being Angel's opposite, like how Spike's treament of a Minor having a crush on him compared to the soul having Angel's. Spike's complete polar opposite on how he see's love as something postive to protect, where as Angelus's use of love as a tool to torture someone with. William loved and respected women where as Liam only used the ones around him.

This all leads me to the conclusion that Spike was more popular than Angel mostly because of Jane's input and groundwork on the character after season 2, and we all know how Joss felt about Spike's popularity and there's no way Jane didn't make all his postive traits the opposite of Angel by coincidence.

Thank you Jane for creating what I believe to be one of the best characters in media history and for being the original Spike girlie.

[paperpuzzles]

I can’t stop thinking about what Buffy the Vampire Slayer would have been like if season 3 had a Buffy/Faith/Angel love triangle. Not the heteronormative one. The one where Buffy is in love with both Angel and Faith.

Think about it. As Buffy secretly nurses Angel back to health when he comes back from hell, Faith is introduced. Buffy knows her relationship with Angel is doomed/trouble trusting him after what he did to her as Angelus/guilt for killing him. Between helping Angel and her “normal” life, slaying with Faith is ironically the only time she can relax. Faith is newer to the scoobies, so Buffy opens up to her about everything and confides in her. Their bond deepens and feelings develop. They start secretly hooking up during their patrols. At the same time, Angel is getting better and things might be starting to happen between him and Buffy again. Faith finds out and gets understandably upset. Buffy is torn between them, and comes to the painful conclusion that while she loves Angel, their relationship is impossible. She realizes she also loves Faith and wants to see where that goes. But as she’s about to tell Faith she chose her, they are attacked which is what leads to Faith accidentally killing the deputy mayor. Faith’s reaction to killing him alarms Buffy so she pulls away from Faith instead of confessing her feelings. Then Buffy finds out Faith slept with Xander, which hurts and confuses her even more. There would also be a very real and sweet moment where she admits everything to Giles, who validates and supports her as she comes to terms with her bisexuality.

Angel and Buffy grow back together. Faith, in cahoots with the mayor now, is hurt and wants to get back at Buffy. This leads to the episode where Faith tries to get with Angel and Angel pretends to be Angelus to find out what she and the mayor are up to.

In their final fight of the season, Buffy confesses her love to Faith and that she would’ve chosen her over Angel. This catches Faith off guard long enough for Buffy to get the upper hand and tearfully stab her. Thinking she’s killed Faith, Buffy laments that Faith died thinking Buffy only said what she said to throw her off, when Buffy meant every word.

Angel would witness this, which would be part of what triggers him breaking up with Buffy since he wants her to have a real relationship like the one she could’ve had with Faith. In the final battle against the mayor, Buffy says something about the mayor corrupting the girl she loved.

THEN SEASON 4 Faith is EXTRA pissed when she wakes from the coma bc not only did Buffy try to kill her Faith thinks their whole relationship was a lie and ON TOP OF ALL THAT BUFFY HAS A NEW BF and even later Faith and Angel REALLY have to sort thru their personal issues with each other along with Faith’s redemption arc then SEASON 7 Buffy and Faith FINALLY have an honest and heartbreaking conversation about their relationship and their love was real but there’s too much broken trust between them to start back up romantically though they will always love each other WHAT THESE SHOWS COULD HAVE BEEN

[eyothings]

So out of nowhere this december, i've been hit with nostalgia and decided it was time to rewatch Buffy The Vampire Slayer's entire series after the last time it aired on tv, meaning 20 years ago.

Not only it shaped a whole side of my lil sister personality, it is also the favorite show of one of my cousin and closest friends.

And considering the state i'm in after finishing season 7, i know for sure Spike is the origin of my utter love for anti-heros, England and ennemies-to-lovers trope.

He is one of those characters that stay with you forever.

C'mon look at him, LO_OK.

I had very few memories of the show, only some big moments: Angel leaving for a spinoff, Spike ♥, Dark Willow, Spuffy - Basically I remembered almost nothing.

The first season set the tone for me, i forgot the serie was very funny, and what worked right away was the simple fact that they didn't act seriously either, the actors looked like they just had fun. On top of that, even if i already knew that, the show is very feminist and advanced for its time.

I also forgot how much of an asshole Xander is. lol

The worst season for me is clearly season 4, and between you and me, and me and you, it's unsurprisingly because of Riley and the army.

The best season is obviously season 6, and not only for Spike and Spuffy but for Buffy's whole personality.

I have so much to say about the show really, but I'll stay focused and talk about the two ships: Bangel and Spuffy (and a bit of Riley). Note that it is purely my point of view, based on what i like to see and read in fiction and how I perceive the characters, there is clearly a big difference compared to real life. As well as any "bitch" mentioned here is only affectionate. And if you're crazy enough to read the entire post, I apologise in advance for the many mistakes in my writing, as English is not my mother tongue.

The moment i'm writing this VERY long ass post, I've only just started to watch Angel the series for the first time and I've only seen the first season, so my thoughts on him may change in the future, but I don't think my pov on the ships will. I am also aware of some events in seasons 8 to 12 (comics).

• Bangel:

To be honest I liked their love story more when Angel was Angelus.

First, them falling in love never really clicked, I guess they played the love at first sight trope, but she was 15 and he was 200; at that age, any man who was pretty enough and a bit dark would've worked for her. (I won't talk about a 26 y/o man falling in love with a 15 y/o teenager, the man is from 1727, at this point it's not even the same culture okay??)

I thought I'd still give it a chance and root for them, even if I was fully aware of him leaving and Spike would be the new romance (I FORGOT THE WASTE OF TIME WITH RILEY), because they actually talked about all the issues, they knew something was off with their love story but they couldn't stop.

I have not much to say about the nature of their love, it was a cute romance at best, but the more they went further the cringier it'd get, I still have trauma about their kiss noises, no kidding.

They slept together and Angel becomes Angelus, which is supposed to be sad and add some angst, but Angelus was so charismatic, I didn't care about Angel anymore.

And what can I say? I think the soul vs no soul aspect played kinda badly, they all said that Angelus was incapable of love since he had no soul, but we had the concrete proof that love was possible thanks to Spike & Drusilla to begin with ??

I was hoping that, since they sold us their love as super powerful and intense, Angelus would end up falling in love with Buffy, especially after the episode in which both are possessed by ghosts in season 2 episode 19 - I Only Have Eyes for You - which is my favorite moment between them:

but NO, Angelus cannot love, and only Angel can:

It's either we get the flavored guy but no romance or the bland one with a half romance.

Talk about the greatest love story there.

And the whole season 3 is Angel and Buffy having a teen romance:

"Let's just hold hands and kiss but nothing else"

Of course I guess this kind of love story is possible, but it is made clear they both feel the sexual tension each time they kiss, they even dream of doing it. So the only thing that comes of it, is frustrating feelings, for Buffy, for Angel and for us watching them going nowhere.

The hottest moment they have is when Angel bites her to survive.

Surely for a love story that is sold to be so grand, I expected Angel to find a cure for the curse? And fight for his love or something?

♫ Nope, he just leaves. ♫

♫ Bitch talks about fighting for what is worth and bails out at the first difficulty. ♫

i cannot even blame Joyce here, she made the right call, for real. Mother knows best, but he had the chance to prove her wrong.

And in parallel to that we are introduced to Spike, a vampire with no soul who is one hundred times worth Angel, just by existing.

And there is so much to say, whether or not Spuffy was intended, whether or not Angel is supposed to be the love of Buffy's life; After reaching seven seasons, I can guarantee without any hesitation, that Spike is the one, there is no contest.

I can't, for the life of me, believe one second that Joss Whedon and the rest of the team wrote the enemies to lovers story of the last two decades without doing it on purpose? They were so much into Angel, to realize what was happening?

They sold me Angel and Buffy being the "forever love", and, in a way, they are, but only because they cling to the "what could've been".

Of course they will always be attracted to each other until they really try. They'll always idealise their love story and fill the plotholes with their imagination. But it is dramatically bound to end in disaster.

And no, Buffy, I cannot take you seriously when you say "I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life" ; You were a teenager, it is normal to feel more deeply when you're 16, but that doesn't mean anything, and you know it too well.

Angel left her broken, unable to trust anyone, unable to trust herself and alone: If the love of her life doesn't want to be with her, then who will? (♫ We have an idea ♫ )

Soul or not, he has been a coward, with no intent to get to know Buffy, her family, her friends. He decided what was best for her without asking her.

All he does after that, is coming back into Buffy's life at the worst moments to be jealous.

♫ He is that toxic boyfriend who comes back with puppy eyes each time you try to move on. ♫

Every time he appears in an episode it's to disappoint even more: I was rooting for him, I even missed him A LOT in season 4 !

And, sure, meanwhile, the dance between Spike and Buffy was already ongoing since season 2, but we really didn't have any concrete scenes between them that could seal the ship for good (them under Willow's spell in season 4 doesn't count). So the best option at that moment was the hope for Angel to come back.

Buffy never really had the chance to move on from Angel because of Riley and his insecurities, but also because Angel cannot seem to move on, while moving on at the same time ? ! ? ♫ Bitch has a child ♫

The moment Angel left the show, it should have been for good. (Note aside, I'm still having a hard time believing the character had his own spinoff because of his popularity, when we barely saw him hanging around in the first 3 seasons, wouldn't have it been simpler for him to stay and have more scenes, like Spike?) • Riley & Buffy (Briley??)

And so Angel never came back, and we got Riley instead. He was the perfect choice to make the bridge between Bangel and Spuffy. She needed to experience a "normal" romance, with a "normal guy" to know what it's like and to understand what she really wants, but one season and a half was way too much. ♫ I ended up googling " WHEN is Riley LEAVING? "♫ The moment Buffy said she held back her strength when training with him, was enough to see what was coming.

Riley was nothing else than just an army guy under steroids who couldn't even handle his girlfriend being stronger than him.

Him blaming Buffy for not really being around when her mother was dying was the cherry on top of the loser's behavior.

Buffy needed someone with whom she could be 100% herself, an equal, and Riley knew he wasn't half of that; so he made her pay? By cheating on her and leaving? Then coming back a year later to brag about his wedding? Lmao give me a break Riloser.

So now Buffy is alone AGAIN, both men she thought she loved, left without looking back. ♫ Over my shouuulder ♫

And from those two relationships, we can already see what she needs in a romance:

- An emotionally available man - That can be there for her without pushing her - Someone who doesn't flee the second he encounters the smallest difficulty - A man strong enough for her to unleash the full force without being afraid of hurting him ♫ yes i'm talking about sex ♫ - Someone who understands her role as the slayer and her crazy life - Someone selfless capable of protecting her family and friends - Someone she can trust.

♫ And now, ladies and gentlemen, lets welcome ♫

• Spuffy:

Ok first a bit of context here: I disagree about people criticizing Buffy season 6 Lets just understand whats going on: Bitch sacrifices herself to save the world and her sister; at that moment, she feels peace for the first time in her life, for the first time she is not afraid to die and fulfill her destiny by choice. She has an heroic death, ends up resting in paradise...

♫ Then her friends who can't handle to live without her, decide to bring her back to life. ♫

Not only she comes back to life in her fucking coffin, she also: - Has to crawl to the surface (almost dying stupidly) - Has to act as if nothing happened - Has to be the slayer again - Cannot even go back to university - Has even less prospect for a normal life - She is poor - She needs to find money (ends up working in a fast food) - Has to thanks her friends for bringing her back to the life she never wanted - Is being blamed for not really being around.

♫ I WOULD HAVE BEEN SO FUCKING PISSED YOU CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE ♫

So what? She comes back, feels different, depressed, alone AGAIN and figuratively chained to a life she still doesn't want, and the only person who does understand what she is going through is Spike. Spike who has been here for her family and friends the whole time she was dead, meaning, he did it because he wanted to, because he felt genuine pleasure in hanging out with them while keeping his promise to protect Dawn.

He could have left, but never did, even though his love was one-sided, he loved her so much he stayed.

♫ Death couldn't do them apart ♫

He has been a father figure for Dawn, but not only that, Spike was also the only vampire Joyce liked and trusted, a presence she didn't mind in her home without Buffy around.

And Spike did love Joyce very much ♥

And I have so much to say about Spike, he is that multi-flavored character with so many layers, who stays interesting with or without a soul. He is a slayer's killer, seen as one of the most dangerous vampires, that anyone should be scared to be around, he has so much confidence in himself, he doesn't even mind being so freaking pathetic when it comes to love.

He is not even afraid nor ashamed to show his affection, to be vulnerable, to be open about it, and most of it, he just embraces it without a care of the outcome, he is just living by the day, knowing perfectly that everything could stop at any moment. Though, that being said, i'm still well aware Spike has also MANY flaws, all he does is mainly driven by love but it is still extreme and twisted due to his soulless condition. I really don't know where to start, because i feel like Buffy and Spike's destinies are intertwined - They are a mirror to each other. Buffy's behavior has anything to do with Spike, as Spike's behavior has anything to do with Buffy - it is really like watching a dance.

Spike allows her to embrace and explore the darkest part of herself - She was always the perfect girl everyone expected her to be.

She needed to do good, to BE good, but what if she, for once, chose the other side? Of course she never went as far as Faith did, but she allowed herself to fall into a forbidden romance, and to go against everyone's expectations, because she only felt something when she was with him. And i loved this part of her, because to me, she finally has flaws! I mean, she always had some but not to that extent. And maybe, maybe being like this, was a way for her to never fall completely into the darkness nor into Spike's influence.

Maybe she was in an inner battle between good and bad.

Maybe it was an unconscious way to either push him away, or test him to see if he will ever leave her. Abusive or not towards Spike, let's not forget that he is still William the bloody, and the only thing that stops him from killing anyone is the chip in his brain. We're still talking about the guy who would have easily killed Willow if he had the chance, the one Buffy wouldn't trust at all without that said chip.

Even though Spike has done TREMENDOUS good deeds with the scoobies, he is still a slave to his primary emotions.

Don't get me wrong, this is why i love Spike SO MUCH, his duality as a soulless vampire is everything. The man can talk to you about his favorite romantic show and a minute later kill someone in cold blood and find a great pleasure in both.

♫ Anyway ♫

Above all things, they are in love, and this love is extremely intense, deep, powerful, unbearable and terrible.

Thanks to Tara, Buffy realizes she did not come back as any different as before she died and realizes the horrors she has committed to Spike by treating him like a monster he never trully was.

Buffy ends up admitting her wrongs and grows out of her darkness and chooses to be good and to end her relationship with Spike. And she is glowing and glimming, and she's not his anymore.

Which leads Spike to end up doing something awful.

And what does he do after that??

He leaves the city...

♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ TO FIX HIMSELF ♫ ♫ ♫

Ladies and Gentlemen, we are in the year 2002, and yes you read me well:

THE BAD GUY GOES TO FIX HIMSELF TO BE WORTHY OF THE GIRL

♫ William the bloody risked his fucking life in a trial to get back his soul ♫

She doesn't fix him, he does it on his own because he knows something must be done to repair his wrongs, that his love needs to be purified of his monstrous side to be a better man and stand at her side.

And even though she doesn't know that, she is still looking for him, even after what he has done, she is always drawn to him, she always wants to be around him.

Then she learns he got his spark back for her and she does everything in her power to keep him by her side.

Because now it is time for Spike to embrace the brightest part of himself thanks to Buffy.

I love them so much, especially in season 7 because they don't even have to act romantically to show how deep their love is for each other. How simple it has become, how instinctive their complicity is. They know how to complement each other, it is almost symbiotic.

They are clearly not ready to be together again until they really sort things out but Spike has seen the best and the worst parts of her, and is still hers entirely, and will always be.

As much as Buffy has seen the best and worst parts of him, and she still trusts and loves him to the point of asking the initiative to remove the chip in his brain. ♫ On top of desperately not wanting him to die ♫ Also, without knowing it yet, she is entirely his and will always be.

Buffy sees Spike’s worth, and Spike sees Buffy’s, even when neither of them can see their own.

They lift each other up, and become an unbreakable force, to the point that no one can split them.

And this is one of my favorite parts of Spuffy, in season 7:

Before, she would never have let Spike kill a human, not even out of revenge. But now, she’s willing to let his shadow take over if it means keeping him alive, just as he learns to hold it back. To me, episode 17 - Lies My Parents Told Me - marks how far their connection has grown: Buffy running as fast as she can to save Spike Spike's past with his mother, helping him make peace with some of it, as part of his ongoing redemption arc ♫ it broke my heart ♫ Spike coming back to his senses to beat the shit out of Robin, and giving him a last chance Buffy telling Robin she'll let Spike kill him next time he even tries to harm Spike Buffy choosing Spike over Giles Buffy choosing Spike over the "common sense" Buffy choosing love over her duty (even if she pretends otherwise) ♫ Buffy, you cannot fool Spike, but you cannot fool us either! ♫

And i love this parallel with the end of season 2 when she had to choose duty over love and kill Angel. This is Buffy allowing herself to be a bit more selfish while Spike is allowing himself to be a bit more selfless.

And then in the middle of the biggest battle of her life, she is overthrown over shitty excuses ♫ i have a LOT to say about the Scoobies but that post is insanely long to add some salt ♫ and who is the one that still has her back? Spike. Spike has always been unconditionally here for her and never let her down, which even the Scoobies didn't always do.

Spike is the one who delivers the most selfless and beautiful love declaration of the whole show, to her. When she needs it the most, because he is the only one who can see her.

And his love is what gives strength to Buffy to trust herself and pursue her goal. He is the one who brings back the light in Buffy, who pushes her to live and accept her fate as being the one.

And talking about light,

♫ What a freakin' poetry to have centered Spike's whole redemption arc around it ♫

He was always pursuing that light, whether in Cecily when he was a human or Buffy as a vampire. All he had to do was bring the light into him and embrace his humanity to fulfill his redemption. And so he makes the ultimate sacrifice, And he glows. Not only he saves the world willingly and selflessly but he also gives back the fire inside Buffy, frees her from Sunnydale and her role as the sole slayer.

♫ "I love you" - "Spike" are the last words Buffy says in the show ♫ • Conclusion A freaking long ass post only to say that to me, Spuffy is very well written as enemies to lovers, thanks to Jane Espenson, Douglas Petrie & Marti Noxon. Though i think Spike still suffers some injustices, but I'm glad he got the respect he deserves in the comics, (which i consider canon) : Not only does Spike end up as part of the Scoobies but also with Buffy, and he is the only one with whom she fights for their relationship to last. ♫ And they're endgame in season 12 ♫ (Thank you Christos Gage)

I also think JW made many mistakes for Bangel to work: I know he was kinda annoyed by Spike's popularity at first and wanted Angel to be seen as the main vampire of the franchise, which led him to give Angel his own spinoff, but by doing that, he also broke the link between Buffy and Angel. Which ultimately led Spike to have a more organic evolution with her instead of Angel. They both had their own paths in their own separate worlds, which forced JW to accept Spuffy as being the logical conclusion. Just as Cordelia was also the best choice for Angel to grow and be more open about his emotions. Claiming in interviews that Angel is the love of Buffy's life without ever demonstrating it concretely in any of the media itself makes this statement fall flat. I do not hate Bangel, I think the ship was necessary for Buffy to grow, but i do see more Angel as her first idealised and tragic love, while with Spike, it is more grounded, mature and based on mutual respect, trust, acceptation and stability.

♫ Angel should have stayed and Spike and Drusilla should have had their own spinoff, and i'd have paid to see that. ♫ • My pov on Sprusilla?

Literally nothing to say about them, they match each other freak to a level no one can ever comprehend.

♫ They are a perfect match and untouchable. ♫ ♫ May they end up together again and last for eternity. ♫

♫ With animals. ♫ (alive)

[spiderjellys]

i love you wendy the werewolf stalker

awesome guide, etc, etc

yj98 #33 & #34 / wtws textual & visual refs

what is it? :°

wendy the werewolf stalker is a dc comics tv show parody of buffy the vampire slayer, appearing mainly in young justice (1998). the tv show centers around a girl named wendy who hunts werewolves and assumedly follows the same basic concept as btvs, where she is the one girl chosen with powers to fight werewolves and assorted monsters. the first mention of it is in yj98 #8, when kon complains about potentially missing the new episode (which would've likely been doppelgangland equivalent based on the date). best issues to read are yj98 #33 & #34, which is where it appears as an actual tv show. it's referenced frequently in dialogue and visual appearances.

characters

wendy the werewolf stalker - played by: terri jewel jackson (t.j.). the wtws equivalent to buffy summers. she is an experienced hunter and fighter, who stalks and kills werewolves. she fights with a crossbow (loaded with red-fletched arrows, which i assume is for her visibility as well as wolves not seeing red) and a silver stake as well as hand-to-hand. shown to be physically strong enough to grapple with a werewolf. likely has preternatural powers giving her enhanced strength, speed, and reflexes.

paulo - played by: javier sanchez. the wtws equivalent to xander harris. a close friend of wendy. shown to help wendy seemingly unarmed, is physically strong enough to partially restrain a werewolf.

unknown name - played by: melody [last name unknown] (mel). the wtws equivalent to willow rosenberg. a close friend of wendy. there's like no character information at all, but she might be a witch like willow? shown hanging onto luella after a fight and has a "romantic fixation" on luella.

cherub - played by: unknown. the wtws equivalent to angel. star of his new spinoff, cherub. one of the love interests for wendy. the character is described by t.j. as a "brooding hunk". (since he's based off angel what would his ""evil name"" like angelus be. cherubic?? cherubim?? lmfao).

luella - played by: cissie king-jones. the wtws equivalent (very very vaguely) to tara maclay based on her romance with melody's character and the shift from guest star to recurring character. shown to be proficient with a bow (looks like a recurve bow?), seems to have some experience with the supernatural based on her easy acceptance of wendy being the werewolf stalker. melody's character has a "romantic fixation" on her, which is likely requited.

lupus - played by: rover [full name unknown]. a recurring (i'm guessing that the wolf shown in filming is the same one every time based on his design) werewolf antagonist who fights with wendy several times, once seemingly after escaping captivity based on his broken chain.

unknown - (will be) played by: jake ketchum. the wtws equivalent of spike (i think. it makes sense with the whole werewolf love interest thing and spike. broods? sometimes? i guess. but i like spike so i miiiight be biased! he also seems like riley finn with the "hiding a big secret about who they are" plot and the season 4 equivalency). a non-antagonistic werewolf who is one of wendy's love interests, who she discovers is secretly a werewolf. the character is described as a "serious, brooding hunk".

the creator of wtws appears as (a vampire) joe/josh westin, the equivalent to joss whedon (barf)

btvs equivalency sort of i guess

even though season 5 of btvs had fully aired by the time of yj98 #33 & #34 it seems like the season taking place that cissie guest stars in is btvs season 4. the cherub spinoff places it after btvs season 3, while luella's introduction aligns with tara's introduction in season 4. joe westin also makes a reference to the ratings being down, and season 4 was pretty badly received comparatively.

[summershq]

it’s so interesting to me that Spike gets to keep parts of himself as a vampire. Like we know there’s a demon basically occupying their body and while vampires talk, act and have the memories the person is basically gone (unless you’re like Angel and have a soul).

But the thing is Spike never changes that much. He goes through torture to get his soul back, but his character and the way he js never changes like it does for Angel. Angelus and Angel are two different individuals, based on whether or not they have a soul. Soulless Spike and Not-Soulless Spike are… the same? Like yes, he feels more guilty about killing and in some scenes definitely holds back, but I don’t see that massive of a change with him.

And it always gets me thinking, because even his mom gets turned (which i only watched BTVS, i know there are probably flashbacks in Angel, but i cannot watch it). She changes. From a loving mom, a boy mom she changes and he kills her, but he doesn’t. Yes, he gets more violent, but that is expected, like bro is a technically demon. STILL he goes back to his mother, that care and love for her never leaves (unlike for example Angel’s. The moment he’s Angelus he wants to terrorise Buffy, he’s obsessed with her and plans on making her suffer for the thrill of it).

Angel’s love for Buffy doesn’t exist unless he has a soul. Spike falls for her without one and as a demon, whose supposed to be evil and well a demon, goes out of his way to endure torture to get his soul back, to be „a better man”.

I always found it interesting how the show was pretty clear on their vampires, yet Spike seemed to be the exception. Even if we don’t want to talk about him in relation to Buffy — He loved Dru. She preferred Angel or both, i cannot remember how exactly that dynamic looked when Angelus was back. But he still loved her, he didn’t care she was crazy.

My point is that obviously turning into a vampire changed William. He wasn’t the exact same, he was more like a vampire, hungry for blood and slayers and torturing people. But we can see there are some prominent traits he never lost. His love. He loved his mother and turned her to give her a forever life. He loved Drusilla and travelled with her all around the world. He loved Buffy and would do anything for her (including getting a soul).

I’m not claiming he has never done a bad thing, because he has, obviously. The point is, if he has a chance to do good he does it, he still has some core values and qualities from his human life, which was decades ago. Angelus would never. Drusilla would never. The vampires we meet in Buffy would never.

[coraniaid]

People in the Buffy fandom love to rail against the idea that a vampire's personality has nothing to do with who they were as a human being. I've lost track of how many times I've seen a post on here pointing out how hard this stance is to justify and how ridiculous it is that the writers in general and Giles in particular keeps claiming it to be true. Which is interesting, since what I've just described is a position that both Giles and the show more broadly never actually takes.

The one time Buffy suggests this might be true -- when she tells Willow that "a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was" in Season 3's Doppelgangland -- she is clearly meant to be wrong! Angel very obviously is about to correct her when he chimes in with "well, actually...", and she knows he is about to disagree with her which is why she glares at him to make him stop. What's more, what Buffy is telling Willow in this scene has no bearing on anything the show has said or shown before. We are not meant to think Buffy is accurately descibing the show's position. We're not even meant to think it's something Buffy herself believes. She's very obviously just saying it to try to make Willow feel better. This is not subtle!

The very first human we see on the show who gets turned into a vampire is Season 1's Jesse in the opening two-parter Welcome to the Hellmouth / The Harvest. Human!Jesse is, not to be too charitable, an unpleasant creep who is weirdly obsessed with Cordelia Chase. Vampire!Jesse is ... also an unpleasant creep who is weirdly obsessed with Cordelia Chase. Don't you think this is an odd creative choice if the show wanted you to really think that a vampire's personality was nothing like the human they used to be?

This trend of linking a vampire's personality to that of their former human life continues throughout the first season. Why would Giles warn Buffy (in Never Kill A Boy On The First Date) that the human Andrew Borba, who they suspect has been sired as the Anointed One, was wanted by the police for "questioning in a double murder" if a human's personality had no bearing on the vampire they would become? And indeed, a couple of episodes later, in the same season's Angel, Giles will explicitly tell Buffy that "a vampire [...] may have the movements, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over."

Having established this back in its first season, it remains a part of the show's lore in every future season. It's one of the elements of the show's often mutable world-building that remains the most consistent. Angel and Spike will both talk about things that "they" did as humans. Giles will continue to warn Buffy that the current vampire of the week was a horrible murderer before becoming a vampire [see: the Gorch brothers in Season 2's Bad Eggs, or Zachary Kralik in Season 3's Helpless], which only makes sense for him to do if he thinks that has a bearing on how dangerous they are as a vampire. Drusilla, as a vampire, is shown to be insane because of pyschological torture she was subjected to by Angelus while she was a human. (If a vampire's personality was entirely separate from that of the original human, how would this work?) Buffy admits to Ford in Season 2's Lie To Me that a vampire "walks and talks and [...] remembers [it's former] life". And so on, and so on.

And yet, without fail, every couple of months, somebody will announce that a vampire's personality in Buffy very often mirrors the personality of the human who died to become that vampire, as if this is somehow a radical and subversive reading of the text. Well, yeah, no shit. That's explicitly how it's always worked.

What's next: a post bravely insisting that -- no matter what Joss Whedon might want you to think -- vampires on the show really do hate sunlight and crosses and holy water? That maybe being a Slayer might be a metaphor for something? That there are subtle clues and hints scattered throughout the show's final seasons that suggest that maybe Marti Noxon and Doug Petrie are wrong, and that Willow might not be straight?

[acciofictionalmen]

bait - ANGELUS (btvs)

(angelus x female!reader one-shot)

summary : in a desperate attempt to catch angelus, the scoobies send you in as bait.

a/n: i don't usually write darker pieces of writing such as this, so lmk what you think ! :)

warnings : gets a bit spicy, sexual references, strong language used, angelus hurts reader, mention of blood, a sprinkle of yandere, kinda angsty?? 14+

"Angel?" You said uncertainly, pushing open the door to his apartment. It was unlocked.

The silence felt consuming, and you swallowed anxiously as you took small steps inside.

His bed was untidy, duvet strewn across the floor, "I came to ask for help, there's a demon-"

"(Y/n)? You're back?" He walked in after you. You forced yourself not to wonder whether he had been following you or not.

His voice startled you and you failed to suppress a flinch. You hadn't seen him like this yet, had only heard the chilling stories that Giles and the others had told you full of the details of what he was capable of. Buffy had been determined to keep you far away from Sunnydale, from the soulless demon, to hide you and ensure your safety. You had been face to face with Angelus before, and it hadn't turned out well. But things had changed, your situation had changed, and your friends needed help to defeat him. No matter the cost.

He looked almost exactly the same as always, except his brown eyes were filled with faux concern. "Are you okay?"

Angelus advanced towards you as your eyes flitted to the clock on the wall opposite. Seven and a half minutes. Then Buffy would be here, and Angelus would be caught and restrained. A couple of minutes. You could do that.

Yet you hadn't entirely been sure of your friends' plan- luring Angelus into one place would surely be something the two-and-a- half century old demon would expect. But your friends - Buffy especially - were desperate, and it seemed that the vampire couldn't resist an opportunity to spend time with you. To kill you, was your assumption. He had made it clear from the start that he delighted in these small games that you all played. What worried you was that he always left as the winner.

"Yeah, I have to write an article on Sunnydale's history; I'm an intern now at the Sunnydale Press." You explained, your confidence increasing, "I figured you could help. I arrived this morning and the others weren't home so.." You trailed off, uncertain if he'd bought it. You were doing a terrible job at pretending and you knew it, but the others insisted that it should be you who stalled Angelus. In the past he had always been slightly more lenient in a situation where you were involved.

"I thought you needed help with a demon?" He jested, and your heart dropped. He knew, and you were fucked. But there was nothing left to do except play along.

The vampire slowly advanced and you moved backwards, "Yes, uh, an article on the history of demons in Sunnydale."

Your back hit Angel's wardrobe, and the man opposite you smiled.

"I've never liked liars." He said absentmindedly, finger lifting your chin as he observed you. The fear in your eyes was evident and he inhaled your scent, distress seeping from your pores. "Tell me, (Y/n)," He began, closing what little distance was left between you. If he had been human, you would've been able to feel his breath hitting your face. You shivered. "-and don't lie," he continued, "do you ever think about me?"

You struggled against him, "Angel I-"

"Don't say his name," Angelus spat through gritted teeth as his hands harshly grabbed your wrists, keeping you firmly in place. "And feel free to keep struggling, precious, but just do it a little more to the left." He groaned.

You didn't respond, breathless and feeling nauseous. The both of you knew that you could easily resist him more if you tried, but Angelus knew that despite what you told yourself you didn't want to.

"At night, when you're in your small double bed, cushions propped up around you, hair down, head leant against the headboard, heart racing, in your thin, thin silk dress," He paused as though he were imagining it right then and there, imagining the fabric, imagining how when it hit the moonlight it was practically see-through, "the one in that pretty shade of periwinkle," his eyes found yours again, and you swore they darkened. You were shaking under his touch, terrified at the prospect of this, monster watching you when you were most vulnerable. During moments you had thought you were alone. Private moments. And how had he even known where your friends had hidden you? "-do you ever think about me?" He repeated, pressing into you as a warning that if you dared to lie, to even consider it, he would know. The frail, wooden wardrobe shook at the movement.

"Yes." You whispered, barely audible, eyes focused on anything but his face.

He removed his hand from your left wrist and tilted your jaw so that your eyes were forced to look into his brown ones. Angel's eyes, yet lacking Angel's warmth.

"Good, good." He dragged the words out as his tongue darted out to lick his lips.

Your eyes fell to his mouth, then hurriedly went back to his eyes. He was smirking, he'd noticed.

"And how," his face morphed into a vampire's, "does it make you feel?"

Tears brimmed in your eyes as he grinned, revealing his fanged teeth. A warning. It was pointless- his teeth would end up buried in your neck no matter what you said.

"Good." A salty tear fell onto your cheek, which he instantly swiped away with his thumb. "And I hate myself for it." You mumbled, voice breaking. You had always had an attraction to Angel, even during his relationship with Buffy, and the shame of it was suffocating. She had never been anything but good to you, and you had repaid her by stealing glances at Angel whenever you thought no one was looking.

However now it became clear that someone had been.

"What was that?" Angelus lowered his fangs towards your neck at a tantalisingly slow rate. As though he meant to drag out the pain, to burn this memory into your brain.

Your eyes fluttered closed in preparation as you whispered, "I hate myself for it every, day."

A small scream left your mouth as the door to Angel's apartment was broken off its hinges, clattering onto the floor only inches away from where the two of you were. Buffy.

Angelus slowly pulled himself off of you. As a result of the interruption, his fangs had only managed to puncture the top layer of skin, leaving behind two red dots that quickly began to pool with blood. Angelus licked the smudge of red off of his fangs, making a show of savouring the taste.

Your best friend and mentor, the slayer, began to fight the vampire as you tried to help at every possible opening, but it was no use. He easily escaped.

Your neck on fire, you gently brushed the tips of your fingers against it, pulling your hand away to see them coated in crimson blood. Something told you that Angelus would be back for more.

thank you for reading!! lmk your thoughts <33

[evvyyypeters-fics]

S3 E07 ot BTVS is one of the many episodes where Buffy’s friend piss me off SOOOOO BAD. Even Giles.

Buffy didn’t necessarily hide Angel being alive. She just didn’t tell them because it wasn’t important at the moment and it wouldn’t have made a difference other than them getting upset like they did. Not to mention she was more embarrassed about her relationship with Angel, them struggling with staying apart while he’s back and them trying to help each other.

I am by no means a Bangel shipper (as is obvious from my multiple other BTVS posts) but this episode just makes me so mad. I feel for Buffy in this scene, and me personally I would have chewed them out.

Coming at her about being with Angel. She literally told them that he got his soul back at the last moment before she killed him, and he’s had a soul since they met him—and despite knowing his crimes—they were fine with him. But as soon as he loses his soul and acts cruel towards THEM well NOW it’s an issue.

Them attacking her about “lying” but they won’t even let her speak and explain what happened. Acting as if she has some sort of “addiction” and isn’t idk…just a TEENAGER IN LOVE? If they had just actually let her speak and tell them what was going on instead of trying to tell HER what SHE is going through…And Giles teaming up with them. Like bro you’re an adult, you should understand Buffy isn’t “addicted” or has a “problem” with Angel, she’s just a girl in love. And you of all people know what Angel did before he had a soul and didn’t care to protect Buffy or her friends until he turned his back on yall. Honestly, if Angel didn’t kill Jenny, I don’t think he would have agreed with them. I think he would have defended Buffy. But because Angelus’s evil affected him, now Angel, with or without a soul is deemed “dangerous” and “reprehensible”

And this is not the only time Giles does something like this. I’ve seen people say that Giles wouldn’t let Buffy get kicked out of her house if he was there, BUT HE LITERALLY WAS! There was a single moment where he was in the room and he didn’t stand up for her. If anything, he was doing the same passive agreement where he tries to team with both sides but instead he ends up betraying Buffy. EEEUURRGHHHRNFJDNSJ

I wish Buffy would have actually gotten a moment to fully crash out and clock them and just list all of their bullshit they did to her and how much she did to carry their asses. We get a few small moments like that, but they’re never cathartic enough. Like let my girl CHEW. THEM. UP!!!!!

[ravelqueen]

One thing that is actually super interesting - character wise is how stark the difference between Angel and Angelus is when compared to Spike and be-souled Spike.

Angelus and Angel might as well be two completely different people - the way they act, react and conceptualise the world around them is honestly completely opposite.

Meanwhile, besouled Spike is a lot more aware of his past actions and isn't interested in killing humans for sport etc, but in the way he interacts with the world around him, he's actually still very similar - he's snarky and sarcastic, romantic yet cynical etc.

It's extra funny when you consider that probably this was never supposed to be a Deep Philosophical Ponderance Of The Nature Of A Soul

In my opinion this came out of happenstance: a writing choice forced on the Buffy team, based on when in the narrative it happened.

Angelus was always set up to be this enormous threat, this absolute monster tormenting Buffy, while Angel was supposed to be this fairytale first romance of a wonderful older boyfriend - the dichotomy was probably decided upon before /in season 1.

Spike on the other hand was never planned to get a soul - he wasn't even supposed to stick around longer than the 2nd season! However, the ensoulment made sense with the progression of the story/character if the writers wanted to adhere to the rules of the universe they set up namely:

Vampires are Evil Demons, inhabiting the body of the human before them, and most importantly they are irredeemable and incapable of true human affection. This is extremely important lore in that universe, because Buffy kills a lot of vampires - in the later seasons they aren't even really a major threat and more background ash. If you suddenly introduce the idea that Actually vampires can be fully redeemed, your main characters has been just murdering Possibly Good People willy-nilly for several seasons

Unfortunately, at this point in the narrative, Spike might as well have been ensouled already - he was acting altruistically, out of love (self-reported) and was mostly just helping our heroes, with motivations unrelated to villainous impulses

So really the writers had to give him a motivation to go and get his soul (the writing choices on how he gets there Being Bad notwithstanding).

HOWEVER, they really really couldn't pull the same move with Spike that they did with Angel re: his 180 degree personality switch simply because the audience liked non-soul Spike. They enjoyed the personality and character that had been crafted for the last 5 seasons, so changing him too much would have with almost complete certainty been met with negative reactions .

Which is why I assume they decided to simply soften parts of his personality, make him stop wanting to kill humans and called it a day on his other less-than-cuddly personality traits.

Which leads us to question on why two people in the same circumstances turned out so wildly different ESPECIALLY since William seemed Basically Alright when he's human.

Does that mean that Angel is fundamentally a worse person, only held back by the morality of his soul? Or that he was fundamentally a much more virtuous man and therefore the loss of his goodness had a larger impact, as removing those parts took away more of what he used to be?

That William was a lot more acerbic and mean deep down and therefore not too different? Or that actually William lost way less of his morality/capacity for empathy when he turned because Something and that led him to doing less awful things that would lead to a personality change??

Those are such interesting questions that somehow the show never addresses (as far as I know? comics people?) aside from Angel Being Mad that Spike got over his angst so quickly and it's just hilarious to me that if I'm right this basically was never meant to be that deep and simply just a byproduct of What The Fuck To Do With Spike

[raisedbythetv89]

Ok ooooook OK SO.

Spike was literally made for Buffy because he was made for and by Drusilla, and Buffy and Dru are the same person:

Innocent, kind-hearted young girls, with special gifts that cause them to carry more guilt/burden than others and they are used/abused/traumatized by angelus/angel, then neglected and abandoned, with Spike being there to pick up the pieces and nurture, care for, and love them the best he can to help them move past their angel trauma (which is actually an impossible task with Drusilla because of the sire aspect but isn’t with Buffy)

WHICH is why I believe William’s first act as a vampire was to try and save his mother. He was literally created to be Dru’s knight. Not only her protector but her healer. Which is why his first instinct when it should be all about blood lust is instead, to heal his mother who he still loves even as a vampire. I mean even Dru, a certified nutcase, is like you wanna do WHAT?!?! When Spike tells her his plan to save his mom😹

This is also why I believe angel trying to mold Spike into his image never really took or rather Spike was able to break free from it. Angel was created by darla for the intent of death, torment and destruction.

Spike was created to care for and love Dru. Which required an OBSCENE amount of patience, determination, humility, and love of a challenge. Which is why he was so intrigued by slayers, another seemingly impossible task - but the joy/fun was in the TRYING, the thrill of the unknown and the unpredictability of it all. Which are all the traits he needed to be there for both Dru and Buffy while also ensuring he never gives up on them as long as they want him there, and then some lol.

IM FREAKING OUT ABOUT THIS

Because also this is soooooo not where I planned on going with this but “I was made to love you” episode title is now drawing in the connection of, is this why Spike didn’t initially see the problem with the Buffy-Bot until he saw the reaction of Buffy herself who often acts as his moral compass as he relearns what is “good” after 100+ years living by vamp code because him AS A HUMAN, in his vulnerable, dejected and devastated state was killed and made into a vampire for the sole purpose of loving and caring for Drusilla selflessly, without regard for himself, much like the bots were!! So why would he see the harm in creating something like that for himself when no one was going to die in the process and it meant he could stop fixating in the real buffy? Both of which to a vamp who’s only been trying to live by human morals again for like 14 episodes vs 120 years with NO help just trial and erroring his way through becoming a white hat which his starting point is “I would like credit for not taking advantage of bleeding disaster victims” and “what do you mean building a shrine to show how deep my devotion is and chaining you up, offering to kill my ex, and forcing you to talk to me and admit your feelings aren’t the way to do this??” 😹😹😹 like he gets it so wrong, it’s comical in season 5 because he truly is so earnest about all of it because while yes it is all for a chance with Buffy, he genuinely wants to be better for her so he can earn that chance. As he says to Riley “a fellas gotta try” after saying he doesn’t think he has a chance with her.

He was an Eleanore who desperately needed his Chidi. Which Buffy is his moral compass but she ends up being a “let them fail/push them into the deep end” kind of guide. So he makes A LOT of mistakes along the way as many of us often do in general but especially those of us who were raised by abusive parents; who in our adulthood, have to learn to discern what is healthy vs abusive to be a good person to both yourself and others and be in actual healthy relationships with boundaries and respect with zero practical experience or good instincts to go on.

NONE of this excuses any harm that Spike causes at all. That is not the point of this to say “oh he didn’t really do bad”, no he did. Spike caused a lot of harm but this perspective that I’ve finally been able to put into words is why none of the harm ends up being a deal breaker for me and many spuffys because it puts his choices in the right perspective which is not that of a human even though he looks like one a lot of the time.

Spike pre-soul, making the mistakes he makes isn’t the same as a human or a vamp with a human soul making the mistakes because he doesn’t have his human soul motivating and informing the decisions he makes. It really mimics different cultures in a lot of ways as anya really demonstrates during her wedding with all her talk of demon culture and tradition (and her own struggles to assimilate into the human world again and she HAS a human soul and xander to help her) and the initiative being VERY n*zi coded and Riley being called a bigot because he is ignorant to much of demonology. So un-souled spike has a more potential for forgiveness of his mistakes than human soul havers because he is always genuinely TRYING to do right by Buffy even when he gets it horribly wrong. And the characters in the show always hold him accountable and make him feel TERRIBLE for the mistakes he makes.

Why does he have such potential for forgiveness you ask? The best example is to think of the concept of someone trying to assimilate themselves into a new culture. We can’t expect them to blend right in perfectly and get all the culture norms right, right away (again -anya-but also a real life example - when I travel in Italy and catch up with friends there I STILL always stumble and forget they’re always gonna go in for a double cheek kiss greeting - pre covid anyway - and I KNOW it’s a thing but if I’m out of practice it takes me a while to start greeting people that way again and it makes for some AWKWARD ENCOUNTERS until I get it down😹). It takes time, and normally guidance and patience from others that spike honestly doesn’t often have except in the form of being yelled at or beat up until he gets his soul. But his willingness to TRY anyways despite failure, rejection, ridicule and cruelty. How can I not love him?? He is me, I am him!! I was also met with so much unhelpful criticism and cruelty when I was just trying to learn and do a good job.

Both as someone who is autistic and didn’t know it for a lot of life; I too felt like I was blundering through without a guide or a rule book and I was sure I was making mistakes because people would get upset but I had NO help identifying what exactly I did wrong or what to do instead. So I knew I was messing up but had to keep guessing and trying anyway and getting it wrong again and again!

And as someone raised by an emotionally distant/abusive narcissist, navigating healthy relationships became even MORE difficult and I made a lot of bad choices along the way that landed me in some awful relationships much like what spike and Buffy devolve into towards the end of season 6 because both of them are up stream without a paddle when it comes to healthy relationships, healthy coping mechanisms, and communication. They know pain, avoidance, fighting, torment, and ecstasy from always living in extremes and life or death situations (notice Buffy struggles the most in the season with no threat of the apocalypse until the last two episodes - season 6 - which is SO common for people with trauma, you really fall apart when things are low stakes)

It’s why the tenderness and gentleness of season 7 means SO MUCH. Both of them experiencing these tiny pockets of true peace with each other after everything they’ve been through individually and together. Experiencing true peace like we see from them is one of the hardest things to accomplish if you have severe trauma.

I’m always really happy when I can digest these complex themes enough to communicate why I love them so much and why they’re so important to me. The fact that this show had so much in-fighting amongst the writers and misogynists trying to make spike pathetic and accidentally making him one of the most complex characters, plus episodes based specifically on neurodivergent/queer peoples’ traumatic coming of age experiences because the parallels are SO strong there no way they’re not lol. This all means I can probably spend the rest of my life dissecting the layers of this show and learning about myself in the process and always find something new 🙃🙃🙃 and clearly I love all aspects of spuffy so god damn much as they each embody a big part of my life experiences in so many beautiful yet tragic ways.

[autumnknight]

Angelus is back.

It's so funny that they take all the precautions to keep him restrained and whatnot because he's so very evil and vampires can never ever be trusted and at the same time Spike is chilling with the Scoobies.

He was the one person Buffy trusted to keep Dawn and Joyce safe and even with what Spike does at the end of season 6, Buffy still trusts him to keep Dawn safe.

Back to Angel.

Is Wesley the only one capable of anything in season 4. He keeps stepping up to actually provide intel and gets stuff done.

[userslayer]

i loved faith's arc on ats so much. watching her experience her lowest point where she literally seeks death in the hands of angel by torturing and killing people everywhere she goes to risking her own life by injecting herself with poison to capture angelus (not even knowing if she'd survive) because she believed angel deserved to be saved. that beneath it all, he was genuinely good.

and it kills me because no one ever saw that in faith. all everyone sees is a dangerous, broken girl they should all fear and keep away.

i just admire the way that, with the help of very few people like angel and buffy, she managed to pull herself out of that dark place. she remains the same, her strength and power never left, but she doesn't let it consume her.

[spikedru]

crucially i think drusilla is the only one of the whirlwind who truly deeply cares abt all of its members like darla only really cares abt angelus and even then she would leave him to die as a part of their foreplay and she tolerates drusilla as the only other woman in the group. angel only cares abt darla like drusilla is a toy to him and spike is the stupid runt who isnt being a vampire right and spike only cares abt drusilla he would throw a party if angelus died and prob thinks of darla w the same detached ambilvalence she gives him

[becomingpart2]

Saw your post about the SA only making Spike the focus, and I agree. What do you think of the argument that it *was* about Buffy because it was about how she could forgive and inspire people to better themselves, and in the end Buffy saved the world by saving Spike and allowing him to be a Champion? And that it totally made sense for Buffy because she was compassionate (forgave Willow for trying to end the world) and acted the same towards Angel in S3, separated him from his soulless self and took care of him?

The only episode that compares in focusing on Angel and his psyche is Amends, as opposed to every other interaction between Spike and Buffy in Season Seven.

Hi, sorry this took so long.

So tbh, this is one of the first times I'm seeing this argument because it's just not common in the buffy circles I'm in. I'm actually a bit shocked that it is even an argument that exists and that is being used in some kind of attempt at justifying or even defending the terrible way the show handled the abuse buffy suffered.

I'm aware that much of the show's idea of what it means to be a hero lies in the idea of perservering despite everything, taking the punches life throws at you and continuing despite it all. Being kind and compassionate through it all because that's the hero's responsiblity, etc. But I don't think you can make that argument when it comes to gendered abuse, especially for a show that calls itself "feminist". It's frankly the opposite of that, it's offensive and misogynistic to the core.

Women are already educated since birth to prioritize other people's needs and comfort, especially men's, over their own. They're made to swallow their pain, their suffering for the comfort of the others, to not "disturb the peace" of their environment, to not make things uncomfortable, to not be "selfish". That is a huge component of patriarchy, whether that is about being a good mother and a good wife or to more extreme cases like being silent about your own abuse. And when women do talk about their abuse, that's usually accompanied by the overanalyzing of their every action and victim blaming; they did something to "earn" getting abused. You know, like Buffy in S6.

So no, I don't think buffy "forgiving" her would-be rapist simply because he's got a soul now is a good storytelling point by any mark. And that's made even worse by the fact she can't really forgive him because the show didn't want to acknowledge it again.

Faith, Angel and Willow, for instance, all had their wrongdoings acknowledged in the text to some extend: Faith went to prison, Willow goes to England and is afraid to use her powers again and Angel is isolated from the rest of the scoobies and at one point even tries to kill himself. Spike gets a soul in an ambiguous way where he makes it seem like he's going to use it to "punish" buffy for rejecting him and then goes back to sunnydale where buffy procedes to protect and take care of him after learning he's got a soul "for her", something that she keeps doing even after he proves himself a danger to her friends and family, even after he starts killing again. So I don't think her "forgiving" him is really comparable to the other instances in the show even if we might think some of them "got off easily" too.

(I think you can only make that argument for Willow, but to me what is different about her is that Willow was not a demon -- she's a human being and that separates her from the other villains. Even though she's killed someone, buffy's not a cop, it's not her job to bring "justice" in that sense, so I think her reaction is understandable).

I'm not really sure I'd say buffy completely separates angel and angelus, she always calls him "angel" even when he's soulless. I think her reaction in Amends is mainly about stopping him from killing himself and I believe she'd do that for anyone. She obviously still loves him and has conflicted feelings about what happened but I never get the impression that what he did to her is being swept under a rug -- they both very much acknowledge the damage that he's caused and how much he hurt her. And again, angel suffers the consequences of that by being isolated from the group, things are never really the same for them after S2, even though they try to lead a somewhat normal relationship after a lot of resistence. It's different from spike and buffy where their "relationship" literally blossoms from the abuse or better yet from pretending the abuse didn't happen.

I wouldn't be opposed to Buffy forgiving spike if that was actually an arc in the show but it wasn't. You can't have an arc about forgiveness when you can't even talk about what happened, when you can't even admit there was someone who was clearly in the wrong, someone who took advantage of the other person and hurt them the most, instead of vague allusions and conversations about "mutual abuse" (if you subscribe to the idea of mutual abuse, you're admitting Buffy did something to earn it). Amends was very explicit -- it was about the importance of keeping fighting and striving to do good even when you think of yourself as a lost cause because of the bad things you did. Your past doesn't define you, you can always choose to do better, to be better.

[firelxdykatara]

Are you are still in the buffy mode? Do you have any cents on the idea that the narrative let's angel get off easier than spike for his Angelus crimes and its a cop out that angel and Angelus are considered separate people? Because I'm watching it for the first time and I wouldn't actually say that Angel gets off Scott free but there definitely is something weird about no soul angel and no soul spike (but he softens and is always in control) storylines being in the same series.

I am always in Buffy mode, anon!

And, surprising no one, I do in fact have Thoughts (TM) on this.

First off, I will say that I do think there are Doyalist reasons for the discrepancy here--that is, the writing was not always fully consistent and I do believe that plans changed as the later seasons unfolded (Spike was never meant to be a regular, for instance, and him being such a popular character lead to his relationship with Buffy going in directions that, according to everything I've heard, Whedon was not terribly happy about at least at the start)--so some of it is in the way the lore developed later on, rather than necessarily a commentary on the difference between these two vampires.

That said, it does also work pretty solidly with what we are shown--and I think it does make some amount of sense that things which seem fairly black and white early on merge into shades of grey later. We don't just wind up seeing a difference between unsouled vampires, but demons--Anya, just as an example, but there's also Clem, Lorne and Doyle (who are over on Angel's series, but there's a lot of dovetailing here), and others who are demons but not necessarily inherently evil, making it an open question of like... do demons have souls of their own? Vampires exist because a demon takes the place of the human soul, but also, humans can be evil soul or not (see: the Trio) and so I think that there's a lot to dig into here with respect to what having a soul really means.

And also, at the end of the day, Angelus is a clear outlier, even among vampires.

We know this from the moment we start learning about him. He is so notable for his extreme, excessive brutality that he makes it into Watcher lore on evil beings, even above and beyond the existence of the Fanged Four. We also know that Liam, the dude he was originally? Not that great a guy. Which has always brought up the question of like, how did that soul curse work?

Because here's the thing: it was designed to cause him an eternity of torment. What he did to the favorite daughter of that clan was so horrible that even death was not good enough--they cursed him with a soul, so that he might be plagued by his conscience, tormented by the lives of all those he brutally murdered over two centuries of carnage. And it worked. He was immediately plagued by the crimes he committed as Angelus and spent the better part of a century desperately trying to run from the guilt he felt, until the Watcher finally gave him a purpose and he fell in love with Buffy.

So, I think we first need to consider the fact that Angelus and Spike are two very different kinds of vampire. Angelus was brutality personified. Even and despite his relationship with Darla, he was not truly in love with her, I think because he did not have the capacity to be, to care. The very first thing he did as a vampire was slaughter an entire village and murder his little sister, and then his parents, for a shot of spiteful vengeance. The very first thing Spike did was to turn his mother, because even without a soul he loved her, and wanted an eternity with her. (And then he killed her, but only because without a soul, she had no love for him, only vicious mockery.)

Then, also, we need to consider the way they get their souls.

Spike is not cursed with a soul--he seeks his out on his own path to atonement, because even as a vampire he began to see and regret the monster he was. And the thing is, this is only possible because he was effectively defanged by the Initiative. That had to happen before he could truly start being 'domesticated' by the Scoobies--it is his inability to harm humans that leads to him needing to sate his lust for viciousness elsewhere and, the way he always has, Spike gets attached.

He was in love with Drusilla, after all, even at his most depraved, in a way that Angelus never was with Darla.

Angel and Angelus are treated as separate people, separate beings, because effectively, they are. This is set into the lore long before the prospect of vampires being able to change and grow is introduced via Spike, but also, I think it fits their differing natures as vampires. Angelus could not learn to control his demonic nature because when unleashed it consumes absolutely everything in its path and leaves room for nothing else. When he is possessed by a ghost and made to feel love and compassion in I Only Have Eyes for You, rather than attempt to kill Buffy who is in his arms and vulnerable--he runs. The feelings too much like having a soul for Angelus to handle.

Soulless Spike and Ensouled Spike are much closer to the same person, and I think it is largely because Spike's journey from one to the other begins well before he regains his soul. And I don't say this as like, an indictment on Angel, who is one of my favorite characters (as is Spike, to be clear! I'm one of those mythical unicorns who ships Bangel and Spuffy equally, with Bangel inching out just ahead if I'm forced to choose), it's just the way the storylines came about are very different--and, frankly, it would've been a disservice to Spike to ignore his on-screen development in favor of flipping a switch, whereas with Angel it is part of his core character and therefore it is his journey as Angel that is most important, with Angelus serving as an obstacle and a cautionary tale. There's a reason we aren't truly introduced to Angelus until halfway through the second season, when it would hurt the main cast most to lose someone they care about to a monster who is now trying to hurt them in unimaginable ways while wearing the face of a loved one.

Also, I don't think Angel gets off scott free, because we have like all of season 3 to show that he wasn't just welcomed back into the Scoobies good graces now that he had his soul back. He suffers quite a bit for Angelus' crimes, not just for the guilt he harbors about what he did but in the way no one except Buffy is ready to trust or forgive him. Understandably so, especially on the part of like Giles and Willow, Xander can eat my fucking shorts though he has no right, but that's another rant. Buffy never stopped loving him, even when he was hurting her so badly, and that's why the end of Becoming part 2 broke her, and why she kept him a secret all to herself when he came back in early season 3. Which she receives a whole lot of shit for herself, even though if anyone should fucking understand, but that's another rant.

(Ask me about Dead Man's Party some day, I will never shut up.)

Angel and Angelus are most considered totally separate entities by the fandom, more than the characters in the show itself. Apart from Buffy, the Scoobies are all basically waiting for him to become Angelus again, and it takes him leaving Sunnydale and embarking on his own journey towards true, ultimate redemption, for him to become a real Champion and be accepted as such. He will never be able to escape the guilt of what he did while he was Angelus, and that's part of why he is so willing to destroy himself to make things right in the present and future.

Also, in between seasons 2 and 3 he spends like two hundred years in a hell dimension because time passes differently in other planes of existence, and he has to deal with the fallout from that after he escapes, so I wouldn't even say that narratively there are no consequences for what Angelus did. It's just that Angelus cannot be punished in any way that matters--and Spike could.