#is angel/angelus one in the same?

[girl4music]

Is Angel/Angelus one in the same? The Thought Experiment/Paradox of The Ship (or Two Ships) of Theseus

Without outright mentioning Angel/Angelus, there is another way I understand this philosophical thought experiment/paradox about whether a person is the same person if all of their “parts” are removed and replaced by other completely different “parts”.

I fundamentally view life - self and that of other - as one in the same principle and process. That being said - this means that I do not need to see two entirely different people sharing the same physical body to understand that they’re not two entirely different people. I understand energy fundamentally and the scientific concept of energy transference and transformation. That of thermodynamics, cosmology, physics, biology, psychology, neurology etc… Meaning that I understand the nature of the “internal” and the “external” and the relationship and connection between them fundamentally. However, I predominantly understand all of that philosophically and theologically as opposed to experimentally and empirically as an actual scientist would. So thought experiments are my area of expertise - my niche. I consider and affectionally call myself a ‘creative theorist’ because I hypothesise my experiments. I don’t practically do them. When it comes to the subject of the science of physics specifically - there’s either a theoretical physicist (philosopher or mathematician) or an experimental physicist (engineer or inventor). Both explain the complex interactions between matter and energy but one predominantly does the explaining and the other does the experimenting. Think Albert Einstein vs Benjamin Thompson. One is noted for extremely genius thought experiments eventually confirmed to be correct, the other is known for correct evaluations that build on the philosophical implications of the evolution of physical theory. They’re very different physicists but they very much contribute to the understanding of the physical world not actually being as physical as we experience it to be. That of the sensory relationship that we have with it and because of it being sensory, also experienced physically on the Universal scale when it isn’t on the Planck scale and that these two dimensions are connected despite the discrepancies.

So I have no difficulty in understanding that the Two Ships of Theseus are still entirely the same Ship. So that means that I don’t have much difficulty in understanding that Two People sharing One Body are still entirely the same Person either. The Ship (object) and the Person (consciousness) are made of the same stuff - that “stuff” being atoms or atomic particles: electrons, neutrons, protons and the charges conducted to make them all function together.

So you could say that both my scientific side and my philosophical side put the pieces of the puzzle together to further aid my understanding of this whole Angel/Angelus paradox of whether he is actually two entirely different people/entities instead of having undergone immense changes throughout his many years of life of which immediately breakdown when magic gets involved and complicates the whole identity/personality issue of which makes it seem like there is some form of possession going on with him each time he both loses/regains his soul. I.e Does Angel possess Angelus/does Angelus possess Angel?

It’s a difficult concept to grasp but bear with me.

What I think is actually happening is a mental disorder manifested through extreme and constant psychological and physiological trauma. I have already compared this to Willow/Dark Willow which nobody has any problem understanding as the same person. Mostly because it makes complete sense why it happens. And there’s no “vampire with a soul” context with it. There’s a vampire without a soul but that’s a whole other discussion entirely. Vampire Willow is a subject I will return to at some point in analyzing this vampire lore concept - don’t worry. But for “Willow”/“Dark Willow” we know it’s ‘just Willow’. There’s no split-divide identity/personality going on other than the one Willow wants to create for herself to remove her “self” from the pain/grief of losing Tara but also comes right back into first-person whenever she talks about Tara and how she’s able to make her feel. Wonderful, special, loveable, powerful etc… What Willow is doing is unconsciously splitting herself into two entirely different people because she cannot face the reality of the situation in front of her as Willow - only as Dark Willow. Basically choosing to accept and embrace her new evil persona because she believes her good persona isn’t good enough to do the job. A job of which she employs on herself as her responsibility and loyalty to Tara. To kill Warren. To avenge her death. She allows the power and the darkness to take over her. But it’s still just Willow. There’s no demonic possession, there’s no demon escaping from incarceration in an alternative verse. It’s just Willow letting the darkest magic control and corrupt her while she is riddled with anger and hate. The only emotions she can feel are animalistic ones and even they’re rapidly becoming numb as time goes on drugged up with insanely powerful black magicks. So she removes herself from it all by creating a distinction between who she was and who she is. Speaking in third-person, insulting and attacking herself. Hating on her very existence as just Willow much like Faith does when she’s in Buffy’s body. As the Rolling Stones song goes; her world is painted black. Nothing matters anymore but to go with it as the YouTuber Faith Victoria (also known as @willnotacceptalifeundeserved) so beautifully demonstrated in their Dark Willow character study video using a cover rendition of that song.

Now, for me, Angel/Angelus isn’t really that much different to Willow/Dark Willow. I very much perceive the split-divide identities/personalities thing as him splitting himself so as to deal/not deal with his own complex trauma. The only thing is it’s much more complicated because there’s SO. MUCH not explained, not shown, not explored with the dichotomy. At least of what I’ve seen so far. I’ve only just started watching ‘Angel the Series’ last night and I’ve only got passed 4 episodes that don’t mention anything about the vampire lore that I don’t already know. So until I can get more information which I’m sure will affect my perspective on this whole thing, I cannot really see it any other way but split-personality disorder - a learned coping mechanism for escaping/avoiding his emotions. I can’t see it as a demonic possession as ‘BtVS’ treats it because there’s memories, there’s traits, there’s skills, there’s qualities - there’s a whole ship of consciousness that Angel and Angelus both retain of each other every time they lose their soul and regain it again. His whole psyche is intact - it’s just severely disordered. Which is totally understandable given his experiences as both sides of himself. Both sides of the ship sailing on tumultuous water. The deconstructed one and the reconstructed one. The “parts” have changed, sure. But what it is, what it stands for, what it represents is still there. Therefore, it is absolutely entirely the same built ship!

Angel/Angelus is, to me, absolutely entirely the same person. That’s the only reason why his redemption story in ‘BtVS’ and ‘AtS’ holds any real weight to it. Angel/Angelus is the The Ship (or Two Ships) of Theseus that never stops sailing because he never grows - just transforms. That’s all that’s happening. It’s just happening in such a way where it’s not seen because the supernatural does not work with physics. I know Willow would probably attack me for saying that but it’s true - at least as far as time-space goes. And Angel/Angelus just bypasses the boundaries of it because he’s not compatible with it.

[layer-of-slayers]

My main issue with Angelus as the Big Bad is that he was built up as one of the worst, scariest, most sadistic vampires in history and this whole Buffy and Drusilla parallel was set up with the way he stalked Drusilla and killed everyone she loved only for him to do stuff like... use his invite to Willow’s house to kill Willow’s fish, and use his access to Buffy’s house to leave her handdrawn portraits instead of trying to kill Joyce or attack Buffy in her sleep, and only go after Jenny Calendar when she found a way to re-ensoul him.

So: imagine if Angelus did start to go after Buffy’s loved ones and managed to kill at least one person, Imagine if Buffy and Joyce and the Scoobies had that to deal with when a re-ensouled Angel came back in season 3 (Giles was already dealing with that in canon because Angelus killed Jenny, but i wonder if Buffy.would have reacted differently to him in season 3 if it had been someone she was closer to and didn’t have mixed feelings about, considering she partially blamed Jenny for Angel losing his soul in the first place). 

Basically what i’m thinking is: AU where Angelus kills Hank Summers

[invisible-pink-toast]

#to answer my own question: nobody talks about it because it happened in season five of angel#and nobody watched that far

why does nobody ever talk about angel and spike fighting over the shanshu prophecy?

when spike points out that angel views his soul as a curse, as punishment, as being forced to live with the guilt of everything he's done, whereas spike fought for his soul. nearly died for it. the demon with no soul still wanted to do the right thing, to be a good man, so desperately he would destroy himself for the chance.

and then angel says something VERY interesting to spike. spike says he thinks angel hates him because he's a living reminder of his evil. "cause every time you look at me, you see every dirty little thing i've done. all the lives i've taken. because of you. drusilla sired me, but you made me a monster."

and angel, the man who, without his soul, tortures and kills people sadistically for fun and feasting, the man who insists he is not angelus, says, "i didn’t make you, spike. i just opened up the door and let the real you out."

SUCH an interesting thing to say, angel! let's talk about this. no, please—go on. explain how you are better than spike in any way. i'm fascinated. i'd love to hear how you and angelus are different people but the demon who possessed william the poet is somehow the same as the man.

you can't have it both ways, you horrifically catholic man. you aren't a better person just because you've suffered more.

[abadbadbrujah]

Jane Espenson writing the majority of Spike episodes where he shows positive character growth, the fact that Spike is the antithsis of Angel and that Joss Wheadon hated his popularity can not be by coincidence.

I know I'm connecting a lot of dots with this one (that have probably been connected before), but she quiet literally wrote the episode where he is reintroduced in season 4 with "Harsh Light of Day", where he becomes part of the Scoobies with "Pangs", "Doomed" and "A New Man".

Then later on in Season 5 saved his character with the masterful "Intervention" where in the same episode she writes Spike creating the sexbot he also shows his worth by being tortured (where we see him being penetrated) and not breaking.

In the season 6 episode she wrote "After Life" where we see Spike's trauma of Buffy dying and how he is literally the only Scoobie to be able to look after her after being resurrected, as he himself has gone through the trauma of dying then digging out of his own grave. Also in this episode we see that he has now taken the mantel of Dawn's supernatural protector, out of surviors guilt from the events of the season 5 finale, and then later on how those events have haunted him every night. Jane then wrote Spike to be the only person in Doublemeat Palace to offer Buffy a way out of working there.

Season 7 Jane co-wrote the highly acclaimed "Conversations with Dead People" then "Sleeper" and "First Date" where we see Spike's fall to The First and where he killed people, but also where we see how he has risen in Buffy's eye's to being trustworthy in "First Date".

With all this being said you can probably understand now why I'd say a lot of Spike nuance is credited to Jane Espenson. To quote James in the SDCC 2012 Buffy panel "Joss would come up to me about 3 episodes in to every season and say he has no idea what to do with me", so this meant the other writers (mostly Jane) to take over with writing Spike. So you can see why it's not too far fethced to say she is the reason behind his popularity as she set a lot of the ground work after s2, outside of James's himself giving a masterful preformance. Later on in the SDCC 2012 Buffy Panel she says "we knew we had this amazingly verstial character largely because we had this amazingly verstial actor, we knew whatever we put infront of James he could do..." this shows that she felt comfortable making Spike into whatever she wanted.

For my last point, there's a lot of examples here that the fandom loves to highlight Spike's being Angel's opposite, like how Spike's treament of a Minor having a crush on him compared to the soul having Angel's. Spike's complete polar opposite on how he see's love as something postive to protect, where as Angelus's use of love as a tool to torture someone with. William loved and respected women where as Liam only used the ones around him.

This all leads me to the conclusion that Spike was more popular than Angel mostly because of Jane's input and groundwork on the character after season 2, and we all know how Joss felt about Spike's popularity and there's no way Jane didn't make all his postive traits the opposite of Angel by coincidence.

Thank you Jane for creating what I believe to be one of the best characters in media history and for being the original Spike girlie.

[paperpuzzles]

I can’t stop thinking about what Buffy the Vampire Slayer would have been like if season 3 had a Buffy/Faith/Angel love triangle. Not the heteronormative one. The one where Buffy is in love with both Angel and Faith.

Think about it. As Buffy secretly nurses Angel back to health when he comes back from hell, Faith is introduced. Buffy knows her relationship with Angel is doomed/trouble trusting him after what he did to her as Angelus/guilt for killing him. Between helping Angel and her “normal” life, slaying with Faith is ironically the only time she can relax. Faith is newer to the scoobies, so Buffy opens up to her about everything and confides in her. Their bond deepens and feelings develop. They start secretly hooking up during their patrols. At the same time, Angel is getting better and things might be starting to happen between him and Buffy again. Faith finds out and gets understandably upset. Buffy is torn between them, and comes to the painful conclusion that while she loves Angel, their relationship is impossible. She realizes she also loves Faith and wants to see where that goes. But as she’s about to tell Faith she chose her, they are attacked which is what leads to Faith accidentally killing the deputy mayor. Faith’s reaction to killing him alarms Buffy so she pulls away from Faith instead of confessing her feelings. Then Buffy finds out Faith slept with Xander, which hurts and confuses her even more. There would also be a very real and sweet moment where she admits everything to Giles, who validates and supports her as she comes to terms with her bisexuality.

Angel and Buffy grow back together. Faith, in cahoots with the mayor now, is hurt and wants to get back at Buffy. This leads to the episode where Faith tries to get with Angel and Angel pretends to be Angelus to find out what she and the mayor are up to.

In their final fight of the season, Buffy confesses her love to Faith and that she would’ve chosen her over Angel. This catches Faith off guard long enough for Buffy to get the upper hand and tearfully stab her. Thinking she’s killed Faith, Buffy laments that Faith died thinking Buffy only said what she said to throw her off, when Buffy meant every word.

Angel would witness this, which would be part of what triggers him breaking up with Buffy since he wants her to have a real relationship like the one she could’ve had with Faith. In the final battle against the mayor, Buffy says something about the mayor corrupting the girl she loved.

THEN SEASON 4 Faith is EXTRA pissed when she wakes from the coma bc not only did Buffy try to kill her Faith thinks their whole relationship was a lie and ON TOP OF ALL THAT BUFFY HAS A NEW BF and even later Faith and Angel REALLY have to sort thru their personal issues with each other along with Faith’s redemption arc then SEASON 7 Buffy and Faith FINALLY have an honest and heartbreaking conversation about their relationship and their love was real but there’s too much broken trust between them to start back up romantically though they will always love each other WHAT THESE SHOWS COULD HAVE BEEN

[coraniaid]

People in the Buffy fandom love to rail against the idea that a vampire's personality has nothing to do with who they were as a human being. I've lost track of how many times I've seen a post on here pointing out how hard this stance is to justify and how ridiculous it is that the writers in general and Giles in particular keeps claiming it to be true. Which is interesting, since what I've just described is a position that both Giles and the show more broadly never actually takes.

The one time Buffy suggests this might be true -- when she tells Willow that "a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was" in Season 3's Doppelgangland -- she is clearly meant to be wrong! Angel very obviously is about to correct her when he chimes in with "well, actually...", and she knows he is about to disagree with her which is why she glares at him to make him stop. What's more, what Buffy is telling Willow in this scene has no bearing on anything the show has said or shown before. We are not meant to think Buffy is accurately descibing the show's position. We're not even meant to think it's something Buffy herself believes. She's very obviously just saying it to try to make Willow feel better. This is not subtle!

The very first human we see on the show who gets turned into a vampire is Season 1's Jesse in the opening two-parter Welcome to the Hellmouth / The Harvest. Human!Jesse is, not to be too charitable, an unpleasant creep who is weirdly obsessed with Cordelia Chase. Vampire!Jesse is ... also an unpleasant creep who is weirdly obsessed with Cordelia Chase. Don't you think this is an odd creative choice if the show wanted you to really think that a vampire's personality was nothing like the human they used to be?

This trend of linking a vampire's personality to that of their former human life continues throughout the first season. Why would Giles warn Buffy (in Never Kill A Boy On The First Date) that the human Andrew Borba, who they suspect has been sired as the Anointed One, was wanted by the police for "questioning in a double murder" if a human's personality had no bearing on the vampire they would become? And indeed, a couple of episodes later, in the same season's Angel, Giles will explicitly tell Buffy that "a vampire [...] may have the movements, the memories, even the personality of the person that it took over."

Having established this back in its first season, it remains a part of the show's lore in every future season. It's one of the elements of the show's often mutable world-building that remains the most consistent. Angel and Spike will both talk about things that "they" did as humans. Giles will continue to warn Buffy that the current vampire of the week was a horrible murderer before becoming a vampire [see: the Gorch brothers in Season 2's Bad Eggs, or Zachary Kralik in Season 3's Helpless], which only makes sense for him to do if he thinks that has a bearing on how dangerous they are as a vampire. Drusilla, as a vampire, is shown to be insane because of pyschological torture she was subjected to by Angelus while she was a human. (If a vampire's personality was entirely separate from that of the original human, how would this work?) Buffy admits to Ford in Season 2's Lie To Me that a vampire "walks and talks and [...] remembers [it's former] life". And so on, and so on.

And yet, without fail, every couple of months, somebody will announce that a vampire's personality in Buffy very often mirrors the personality of the human who died to become that vampire, as if this is somehow a radical and subversive reading of the text. Well, yeah, no shit. That's explicitly how it's always worked.

What's next: a post bravely insisting that -- no matter what Joss Whedon might want you to think -- vampires on the show really do hate sunlight and crosses and holy water? That maybe being a Slayer might be a metaphor for something? That there are subtle clues and hints scattered throughout the show's final seasons that suggest that maybe Marti Noxon and Doug Petrie are wrong, and that Willow might not be straight?

[raisedbythetv89]

Ok ooooook OK SO.

Spike was literally made for Buffy because he was made for and by Drusilla, and Buffy and Dru are the same person:

Innocent, kind-hearted young girls, with special gifts that cause them to carry more guilt/burden than others and they are used/abused/traumatized by angelus/angel, then neglected and abandoned, with Spike being there to pick up the pieces and nurture, care for, and love them the best he can to help them move past their angel trauma (which is actually an impossible task with Drusilla because of the sire aspect but isn’t with Buffy)

WHICH is why I believe William’s first act as a vampire was to try and save his mother. He was literally created to be Dru’s knight. Not only her protector but her healer. Which is why his first instinct when it should be all about blood lust is instead, to heal his mother who he still loves even as a vampire. I mean even Dru, a certified nutcase, is like you wanna do WHAT?!?! When Spike tells her his plan to save his mom😹

This is also why I believe angel trying to mold Spike into his image never really took or rather Spike was able to break free from it. Angel was created by darla for the intent of death, torment and destruction.

Spike was created to care for and love Dru. Which required an OBSCENE amount of patience, determination, humility, and love of a challenge. Which is why he was so intrigued by slayers, another seemingly impossible task - but the joy/fun was in the TRYING, the thrill of the unknown and the unpredictability of it all. Which are all the traits he needed to be there for both Dru and Buffy while also ensuring he never gives up on them as long as they want him there, and then some lol.

IM FREAKING OUT ABOUT THIS

Because also this is soooooo not where I planned on going with this but “I was made to love you” episode title is now drawing in the connection of, is this why Spike didn’t initially see the problem with the Buffy-Bot until he saw the reaction of Buffy herself who often acts as his moral compass as he relearns what is “good” after 100+ years living by vamp code because him AS A HUMAN, in his vulnerable, dejected and devastated state was killed and made into a vampire for the sole purpose of loving and caring for Drusilla selflessly, without regard for himself, much like the bots were!! So why would he see the harm in creating something like that for himself when no one was going to die in the process and it meant he could stop fixating in the real buffy? Both of which to a vamp who’s only been trying to live by human morals again for like 14 episodes vs 120 years with NO help just trial and erroring his way through becoming a white hat which his starting point is “I would like credit for not taking advantage of bleeding disaster victims” and “what do you mean building a shrine to show how deep my devotion is and chaining you up, offering to kill my ex, and forcing you to talk to me and admit your feelings aren’t the way to do this??” 😹😹😹 like he gets it so wrong, it’s comical in season 5 because he truly is so earnest about all of it because while yes it is all for a chance with Buffy, he genuinely wants to be better for her so he can earn that chance. As he says to Riley “a fellas gotta try” after saying he doesn’t think he has a chance with her.

He was an Eleanore who desperately needed his Chidi. Which Buffy is his moral compass but she ends up being a “let them fail/push them into the deep end” kind of guide. So he makes A LOT of mistakes along the way as many of us often do in general but especially those of us who were raised by abusive parents; who in our adulthood, have to learn to discern what is healthy vs abusive to be a good person to both yourself and others and be in actual healthy relationships with boundaries and respect with zero practical experience or good instincts to go on.

NONE of this excuses any harm that Spike causes at all. That is not the point of this to say “oh he didn’t really do bad”, no he did. Spike caused a lot of harm but this perspective that I’ve finally been able to put into words is why none of the harm ends up being a deal breaker for me and many spuffys because it puts his choices in the right perspective which is not that of a human even though he looks like one a lot of the time.

Spike pre-soul, making the mistakes he makes isn’t the same as a human or a vamp with a human soul making the mistakes because he doesn’t have his human soul motivating and informing the decisions he makes. It really mimics different cultures in a lot of ways as anya really demonstrates during her wedding with all her talk of demon culture and tradition (and her own struggles to assimilate into the human world again and she HAS a human soul and xander to help her) and the initiative being VERY n*zi coded and Riley being called a bigot because he is ignorant to much of demonology. So un-souled spike has a more potential for forgiveness of his mistakes than human soul havers because he is always genuinely TRYING to do right by Buffy even when he gets it horribly wrong. And the characters in the show always hold him accountable and make him feel TERRIBLE for the mistakes he makes.

Why does he have such potential for forgiveness you ask? The best example is to think of the concept of someone trying to assimilate themselves into a new culture. We can’t expect them to blend right in perfectly and get all the culture norms right, right away (again -anya-but also a real life example - when I travel in Italy and catch up with friends there I STILL always stumble and forget they’re always gonna go in for a double cheek kiss greeting - pre covid anyway - and I KNOW it’s a thing but if I’m out of practice it takes me a while to start greeting people that way again and it makes for some AWKWARD ENCOUNTERS until I get it down😹). It takes time, and normally guidance and patience from others that spike honestly doesn’t often have except in the form of being yelled at or beat up until he gets his soul. But his willingness to TRY anyways despite failure, rejection, ridicule and cruelty. How can I not love him?? He is me, I am him!! I was also met with so much unhelpful criticism and cruelty when I was just trying to learn and do a good job.

Both as someone who is autistic and didn’t know it for a lot of life; I too felt like I was blundering through without a guide or a rule book and I was sure I was making mistakes because people would get upset but I had NO help identifying what exactly I did wrong or what to do instead. So I knew I was messing up but had to keep guessing and trying anyway and getting it wrong again and again!

And as someone raised by an emotionally distant/abusive narcissist, navigating healthy relationships became even MORE difficult and I made a lot of bad choices along the way that landed me in some awful relationships much like what spike and Buffy devolve into towards the end of season 6 because both of them are up stream without a paddle when it comes to healthy relationships, healthy coping mechanisms, and communication. They know pain, avoidance, fighting, torment, and ecstasy from always living in extremes and life or death situations (notice Buffy struggles the most in the season with no threat of the apocalypse until the last two episodes - season 6 - which is SO common for people with trauma, you really fall apart when things are low stakes)

It’s why the tenderness and gentleness of season 7 means SO MUCH. Both of them experiencing these tiny pockets of true peace with each other after everything they’ve been through individually and together. Experiencing true peace like we see from them is one of the hardest things to accomplish if you have severe trauma.

I’m always really happy when I can digest these complex themes enough to communicate why I love them so much and why they’re so important to me. The fact that this show had so much in-fighting amongst the writers and misogynists trying to make spike pathetic and accidentally making him one of the most complex characters, plus episodes based specifically on neurodivergent/queer peoples’ traumatic coming of age experiences because the parallels are SO strong there no way they’re not lol. This all means I can probably spend the rest of my life dissecting the layers of this show and learning about myself in the process and always find something new 🙃🙃🙃 and clearly I love all aspects of spuffy so god damn much as they each embody a big part of my life experiences in so many beautiful yet tragic ways.

[ravelqueen]

One thing that is actually super interesting - character wise is how stark the difference between Angel and Angelus is when compared to Spike and be-souled Spike.

Angelus and Angel might as well be two completely different people - the way they act, react and conceptualise the world around them is honestly completely opposite.

Meanwhile, besouled Spike is a lot more aware of his past actions and isn't interested in killing humans for sport etc, but in the way he interacts with the world around him, he's actually still very similar - he's snarky and sarcastic, romantic yet cynical etc.

It's extra funny when you consider that probably this was never supposed to be a Deep Philosophical Ponderance Of The Nature Of A Soul

In my opinion this came out of happenstance: a writing choice forced on the Buffy team, based on when in the narrative it happened.

Angelus was always set up to be this enormous threat, this absolute monster tormenting Buffy, while Angel was supposed to be this fairytale first romance of a wonderful older boyfriend - the dichotomy was probably decided upon before /in season 1.

Spike on the other hand was never planned to get a soul - he wasn't even supposed to stick around longer than the 2nd season! However, the ensoulment made sense with the progression of the story/character if the writers wanted to adhere to the rules of the universe they set up namely:

Vampires are Evil Demons, inhabiting the body of the human before them, and most importantly they are irredeemable and incapable of true human affection. This is extremely important lore in that universe, because Buffy kills a lot of vampires - in the later seasons they aren't even really a major threat and more background ash. If you suddenly introduce the idea that Actually vampires can be fully redeemed, your main characters has been just murdering Possibly Good People willy-nilly for several seasons

Unfortunately, at this point in the narrative, Spike might as well have been ensouled already - he was acting altruistically, out of love (self-reported) and was mostly just helping our heroes, with motivations unrelated to villainous impulses

So really the writers had to give him a motivation to go and get his soul (the writing choices on how he gets there Being Bad notwithstanding).

HOWEVER, they really really couldn't pull the same move with Spike that they did with Angel re: his 180 degree personality switch simply because the audience liked non-soul Spike. They enjoyed the personality and character that had been crafted for the last 5 seasons, so changing him too much would have with almost complete certainty been met with negative reactions .

Which is why I assume they decided to simply soften parts of his personality, make him stop wanting to kill humans and called it a day on his other less-than-cuddly personality traits.

Which leads us to question on why two people in the same circumstances turned out so wildly different ESPECIALLY since William seemed Basically Alright when he's human.

Does that mean that Angel is fundamentally a worse person, only held back by the morality of his soul? Or that he was fundamentally a much more virtuous man and therefore the loss of his goodness had a larger impact, as removing those parts took away more of what he used to be?

That William was a lot more acerbic and mean deep down and therefore not too different? Or that actually William lost way less of his morality/capacity for empathy when he turned because Something and that led him to doing less awful things that would lead to a personality change??

Those are such interesting questions that somehow the show never addresses (as far as I know? comics people?) aside from Angel Being Mad that Spike got over his angst so quickly and it's just hilarious to me that if I'm right this basically was never meant to be that deep and simply just a byproduct of What The Fuck To Do With Spike

[xaeyrnofnbe]

BEST SCENES in BtVS and AtS (imo and in no particular order)

buffy and giles being bitchy together when wesley was first introduced

"I am, you know. Yours."

angelus' gayass monologue when he first met spike and spike's five billion facial expressions throughout

the cuts between spike strangling nikki to death and him calmly explaining it to buffy

cordelia opening up to buffy in s1 about her loneliness despite her popularity

buffy receiving the class protector award at prom

baby connor finally stopping his crying when angel shows him his vampire face. and starts SMILING INSTEAD

"We were innocent victims too, once upon a time."

the part in that one halloween episode where willow explains her costume and oz reveals he's wearing a name tag that just says "God"

xander talking willow down from destroying the world by telling her he loves her

any scene where angel or spike were horribly wounded or ill. any of them

also that one time angel fed on buffy when he was sick. good shit

cordelia and wes reenacting angel and buffy's melodramatic romance while their friends watch and giggle despite not even having context

lorne's mother telling numfar to "do the dance of [emotion]" but it was the same dance every time

[autumnknight]

Angelus is back.

It's so funny that they take all the precautions to keep him restrained and whatnot because he's so very evil and vampires can never ever be trusted and at the same time Spike is chilling with the Scoobies.

He was the one person Buffy trusted to keep Dawn and Joyce safe and even with what Spike does at the end of season 6, Buffy still trusts him to keep Dawn safe.

Back to Angel.

Is Wesley the only one capable of anything in season 4. He keeps stepping up to actually provide intel and gets stuff done.

[spikedru]

crucially i think drusilla is the only one of the whirlwind who truly deeply cares abt all of its members like darla only really cares abt angelus and even then she would leave him to die as a part of their foreplay and she tolerates drusilla as the only other woman in the group. angel only cares abt darla like drusilla is a toy to him and spike is the stupid runt who isnt being a vampire right and spike only cares abt drusilla he would throw a party if angelus died and prob thinks of darla w the same detached ambilvalence she gives him

[firelxdykatara]

Are you are still in the buffy mode? Do you have any cents on the idea that the narrative let's angel get off easier than spike for his Angelus crimes and its a cop out that angel and Angelus are considered separate people? Because I'm watching it for the first time and I wouldn't actually say that Angel gets off Scott free but there definitely is something weird about no soul angel and no soul spike (but he softens and is always in control) storylines being in the same series.

I am always in Buffy mode, anon!

And, surprising no one, I do in fact have Thoughts (TM) on this.

First off, I will say that I do think there are Doyalist reasons for the discrepancy here--that is, the writing was not always fully consistent and I do believe that plans changed as the later seasons unfolded (Spike was never meant to be a regular, for instance, and him being such a popular character lead to his relationship with Buffy going in directions that, according to everything I've heard, Whedon was not terribly happy about at least at the start)--so some of it is in the way the lore developed later on, rather than necessarily a commentary on the difference between these two vampires.

That said, it does also work pretty solidly with what we are shown--and I think it does make some amount of sense that things which seem fairly black and white early on merge into shades of grey later. We don't just wind up seeing a difference between unsouled vampires, but demons--Anya, just as an example, but there's also Clem, Lorne and Doyle (who are over on Angel's series, but there's a lot of dovetailing here), and others who are demons but not necessarily inherently evil, making it an open question of like... do demons have souls of their own? Vampires exist because a demon takes the place of the human soul, but also, humans can be evil soul or not (see: the Trio) and so I think that there's a lot to dig into here with respect to what having a soul really means.

And also, at the end of the day, Angelus is a clear outlier, even among vampires.

We know this from the moment we start learning about him. He is so notable for his extreme, excessive brutality that he makes it into Watcher lore on evil beings, even above and beyond the existence of the Fanged Four. We also know that Liam, the dude he was originally? Not that great a guy. Which has always brought up the question of like, how did that soul curse work?

Because here's the thing: it was designed to cause him an eternity of torment. What he did to the favorite daughter of that clan was so horrible that even death was not good enough--they cursed him with a soul, so that he might be plagued by his conscience, tormented by the lives of all those he brutally murdered over two centuries of carnage. And it worked. He was immediately plagued by the crimes he committed as Angelus and spent the better part of a century desperately trying to run from the guilt he felt, until the Watcher finally gave him a purpose and he fell in love with Buffy.

So, I think we first need to consider the fact that Angelus and Spike are two very different kinds of vampire. Angelus was brutality personified. Even and despite his relationship with Darla, he was not truly in love with her, I think because he did not have the capacity to be, to care. The very first thing he did as a vampire was slaughter an entire village and murder his little sister, and then his parents, for a shot of spiteful vengeance. The very first thing Spike did was to turn his mother, because even without a soul he loved her, and wanted an eternity with her. (And then he killed her, but only because without a soul, she had no love for him, only vicious mockery.)

Then, also, we need to consider the way they get their souls.

Spike is not cursed with a soul--he seeks his out on his own path to atonement, because even as a vampire he began to see and regret the monster he was. And the thing is, this is only possible because he was effectively defanged by the Initiative. That had to happen before he could truly start being 'domesticated' by the Scoobies--it is his inability to harm humans that leads to him needing to sate his lust for viciousness elsewhere and, the way he always has, Spike gets attached.

He was in love with Drusilla, after all, even at his most depraved, in a way that Angelus never was with Darla.

Angel and Angelus are treated as separate people, separate beings, because effectively, they are. This is set into the lore long before the prospect of vampires being able to change and grow is introduced via Spike, but also, I think it fits their differing natures as vampires. Angelus could not learn to control his demonic nature because when unleashed it consumes absolutely everything in its path and leaves room for nothing else. When he is possessed by a ghost and made to feel love and compassion in I Only Have Eyes for You, rather than attempt to kill Buffy who is in his arms and vulnerable--he runs. The feelings too much like having a soul for Angelus to handle.

Soulless Spike and Ensouled Spike are much closer to the same person, and I think it is largely because Spike's journey from one to the other begins well before he regains his soul. And I don't say this as like, an indictment on Angel, who is one of my favorite characters (as is Spike, to be clear! I'm one of those mythical unicorns who ships Bangel and Spuffy equally, with Bangel inching out just ahead if I'm forced to choose), it's just the way the storylines came about are very different--and, frankly, it would've been a disservice to Spike to ignore his on-screen development in favor of flipping a switch, whereas with Angel it is part of his core character and therefore it is his journey as Angel that is most important, with Angelus serving as an obstacle and a cautionary tale. There's a reason we aren't truly introduced to Angelus until halfway through the second season, when it would hurt the main cast most to lose someone they care about to a monster who is now trying to hurt them in unimaginable ways while wearing the face of a loved one.

Also, I don't think Angel gets off scott free, because we have like all of season 3 to show that he wasn't just welcomed back into the Scoobies good graces now that he had his soul back. He suffers quite a bit for Angelus' crimes, not just for the guilt he harbors about what he did but in the way no one except Buffy is ready to trust or forgive him. Understandably so, especially on the part of like Giles and Willow, Xander can eat my fucking shorts though he has no right, but that's another rant. Buffy never stopped loving him, even when he was hurting her so badly, and that's why the end of Becoming part 2 broke her, and why she kept him a secret all to herself when he came back in early season 3. Which she receives a whole lot of shit for herself, even though if anyone should fucking understand, but that's another rant.

(Ask me about Dead Man's Party some day, I will never shut up.)

Angel and Angelus are most considered totally separate entities by the fandom, more than the characters in the show itself. Apart from Buffy, the Scoobies are all basically waiting for him to become Angelus again, and it takes him leaving Sunnydale and embarking on his own journey towards true, ultimate redemption, for him to become a real Champion and be accepted as such. He will never be able to escape the guilt of what he did while he was Angelus, and that's part of why he is so willing to destroy himself to make things right in the present and future.

Also, in between seasons 2 and 3 he spends like two hundred years in a hell dimension because time passes differently in other planes of existence, and he has to deal with the fallout from that after he escapes, so I wouldn't even say that narratively there are no consequences for what Angelus did. It's just that Angelus cannot be punished in any way that matters--and Spike could.

[angelthemanspanker]

my most tinfoil hat AtS opinion is that legit straight up canon spangel was like RIGHT beneath the surface of season 5, like the show was ready to pivot in the direction of them being at least friends with benefits at a moment's notice despite fate and the censors' best efforts

Season 1 had shit like Angel's first power walk shot set against a pride flag and him awkwardly telling guys he wasn't hitting on them, going for a kinda Adam West Batman kinda gay thing where people assume that about him bc it's the early 2000s and his clothes fit VS Season 5 in the premiere alone giving us Angel correcting a guy who calls him a "little fairy" with "I'm not little" and the legendary, blog-inspiring "I have no problem spanking men" (one of which he says to a guy he's about to kill and one to a guy he knocked out, almost like Angel lets gayer behaviour slip if he's around people who can't bring it up later hm) followed by the only man we KNOW Angel has fucked literally appearing from thin air in his office

then you get Life of the Party where Angel's Whacky Magic Antics are set off by Lorne telling Angel and the person he's having sexually tense arguments with to get a room, causing him to have ill-advised hate sex he ordinarily would not have with someone he is reluctantly attracted to. and I believe in my BONES that at SOME POINT in the scripting process that that person was gonna be Spike. Even setting aside my admittedly subjective opinion that Angel and Eve had even less sexual chemistry than Xander and Willow, it just... scans. Angel and Spike have their "I need to get our faces within an inch of each other or I'll die" arguments in front of EVERYBODY in literally every episode of the season, so I feel like if Lorne was gonna say it about ANYONE it'd be about them. I will never budge from my belief that Spike still being a ghost at this point and early 2000s tv politics caused them to abandon the Angel And Spike Magically Fuck At The Party plot early in the writing process for the episode and slot Eve in there instead while Spike gets the easy-to-write-into-existing-scenes positivity thing.

and THEN. AND THEN. it becomes a plot point that the show Angel's friends are suddenly really on board with him getting back out there dating-wise (the unperson-ing of Cordelia helps here. whee.), with us all suddenly being in agreement that there is little to no danger of his curse being triggered by sex (even though both times he's lost the soul since his curse, real or imagined sex played a significant role in the moment of happiness). Like, Nina is one of the more one-dimensional characters in the Buffyverse and her midness seems to be for the purpose of setting the audience at ease that Angel's soul ain't going anywhere from hooking up with her.

WESLEY is all for it! Wesley "Most Paranoid and Prepared For The Return of Angelus" Wyndam-Pryce is saying look man we're all rooting for you go have a relationship with a girl whose only flaw that I can come up with is that she's a werewolf. Like sir??? How can you be sure the Beautiful Engaging Young Woman Who Actually Wants You won't accidentally make Angel happy with her extremely inoffensive flavour of Nice?

Whereas if, say, there was a beautiful, engaging blonde who actually wants Angel and Angel wants but comes with the caveat that THIS beautiful blonde not only drives Angel up the fucking wall but recently had magical sex with Angel at the office party in front of the whole main cast, proving that as much as Angel gets off on screwing Spike that he is Not happy about it? I can see Wes giving the all clear on that one ngl

bonus points that Angel and Nina got the Official Couple upgrade in Smile Time which comes right before the Illyria tragedy forces Angel and Spike into the... maybe not friendly but LESS hostile dynamic they keep for the rest of the show, so the season structure of their relationship still follows a lot of the same beats. honestly besides getting a lot more moments of David Boreanaz and James Marsters trying to out-six-pack each other in their post-coital shirtless scenes the only thing you'd need to do is change the world-shattering "Me and Angel have never been intimate. Well except that one..." to something along the lines of "Me and Angel have never been intimate, I just shag the bastard"

[acciofictionalmen]

bait - ANGELUS (btvs)

(angelus x female!reader one-shot)

summary : in a desperate attempt to catch angelus, the scoobies send you in as bait.

a/n: i don't usually write darker pieces of writing such as this, so lmk what you think ! :)

warnings : gets a bit spicy, sexual references, strong language used, angelus hurts reader, mention of blood, a sprinkle of yandere, kinda angsty?? 14+

"Angel?" You said uncertainly, pushing open the door to his apartment. It was unlocked.

The silence felt consuming, and you swallowed anxiously as you took small steps inside.

His bed was untidy, duvet strewn across the floor, "I came to ask for help, there's a demon-"

"(Y/n)? You're back?" He walked in after you. You forced yourself not to wonder whether he had been following you or not.

His voice startled you and you failed to suppress a flinch. You hadn't seen him like this yet, had only heard the chilling stories that Giles and the others had told you full of the details of what he was capable of. Buffy had been determined to keep you far away from Sunnydale, from the soulless demon, to hide you and ensure your safety. You had been face to face with Angelus before, and it hadn't turned out well. But things had changed, your situation had changed, and your friends needed help to defeat him. No matter the cost.

He looked almost exactly the same as always, except his brown eyes were filled with faux concern. "Are you okay?"

Angelus advanced towards you as your eyes flitted to the clock on the wall opposite. Seven and a half minutes. Then Buffy would be here, and Angelus would be caught and restrained. A couple of minutes. You could do that.

Yet you hadn't entirely been sure of your friends' plan- luring Angelus into one place would surely be something the two-and-a- half century old demon would expect. But your friends - Buffy especially - were desperate, and it seemed that the vampire couldn't resist an opportunity to spend time with you. To kill you, was your assumption. He had made it clear from the start that he delighted in these small games that you all played. What worried you was that he always left as the winner.

"Yeah, I have to write an article on Sunnydale's history; I'm an intern now at the Sunnydale Press." You explained, your confidence increasing, "I figured you could help. I arrived this morning and the others weren't home so.." You trailed off, uncertain if he'd bought it. You were doing a terrible job at pretending and you knew it, but the others insisted that it should be you who stalled Angelus. In the past he had always been slightly more lenient in a situation where you were involved.

"I thought you needed help with a demon?" He jested, and your heart dropped. He knew, and you were fucked. But there was nothing left to do except play along.

The vampire slowly advanced and you moved backwards, "Yes, uh, an article on the history of demons in Sunnydale."

Your back hit Angel's wardrobe, and the man opposite you smiled.

"I've never liked liars." He said absentmindedly, finger lifting your chin as he observed you. The fear in your eyes was evident and he inhaled your scent, distress seeping from your pores. "Tell me, (Y/n)," He began, closing what little distance was left between you. If he had been human, you would've been able to feel his breath hitting your face. You shivered. "-and don't lie," he continued, "do you ever think about me?"

You struggled against him, "Angel I-"

"Don't say his name," Angelus spat through gritted teeth as his hands harshly grabbed your wrists, keeping you firmly in place. "And feel free to keep struggling, precious, but just do it a little more to the left." He groaned.

You didn't respond, breathless and feeling nauseous. The both of you knew that you could easily resist him more if you tried, but Angelus knew that despite what you told yourself you didn't want to.

"At night, when you're in your small double bed, cushions propped up around you, hair down, head leant against the headboard, heart racing, in your thin, thin silk dress," He paused as though he were imagining it right then and there, imagining the fabric, imagining how when it hit the moonlight it was practically see-through, "the one in that pretty shade of periwinkle," his eyes found yours again, and you swore they darkened. You were shaking under his touch, terrified at the prospect of this, monster watching you when you were most vulnerable. During moments you had thought you were alone. Private moments. And how had he even known where your friends had hidden you? "-do you ever think about me?" He repeated, pressing into you as a warning that if you dared to lie, to even consider it, he would know. The frail, wooden wardrobe shook at the movement.

"Yes." You whispered, barely audible, eyes focused on anything but his face.

He removed his hand from your left wrist and tilted your jaw so that your eyes were forced to look into his brown ones. Angel's eyes, yet lacking Angel's warmth.

"Good, good." He dragged the words out as his tongue darted out to lick his lips.

Your eyes fell to his mouth, then hurriedly went back to his eyes. He was smirking, he'd noticed.

"And how," his face morphed into a vampire's, "does it make you feel?"

Tears brimmed in your eyes as he grinned, revealing his fanged teeth. A warning. It was pointless- his teeth would end up buried in your neck no matter what you said.

"Good." A salty tear fell onto your cheek, which he instantly swiped away with his thumb. "And I hate myself for it." You mumbled, voice breaking. You had always had an attraction to Angel, even during his relationship with Buffy, and the shame of it was suffocating. She had never been anything but good to you, and you had repaid her by stealing glances at Angel whenever you thought no one was looking.

However now it became clear that someone had been.

"What was that?" Angelus lowered his fangs towards your neck at a tantalisingly slow rate. As though he meant to drag out the pain, to burn this memory into your brain.

Your eyes fluttered closed in preparation as you whispered, "I hate myself for it every, day."

A small scream left your mouth as the door to Angel's apartment was broken off its hinges, clattering onto the floor only inches away from where the two of you were. Buffy.

Angelus slowly pulled himself off of you. As a result of the interruption, his fangs had only managed to puncture the top layer of skin, leaving behind two red dots that quickly began to pool with blood. Angelus licked the smudge of red off of his fangs, making a show of savouring the taste.

Your best friend and mentor, the slayer, began to fight the vampire as you tried to help at every possible opening, but it was no use. He easily escaped.

Your neck on fire, you gently brushed the tips of your fingers against it, pulling your hand away to see them coated in crimson blood. Something told you that Angelus would be back for more.

thank you for reading!! lmk your thoughts <33

[becomingpart2]

Saw your post about the SA only making Spike the focus, and I agree. What do you think of the argument that it *was* about Buffy because it was about how she could forgive and inspire people to better themselves, and in the end Buffy saved the world by saving Spike and allowing him to be a Champion? And that it totally made sense for Buffy because she was compassionate (forgave Willow for trying to end the world) and acted the same towards Angel in S3, separated him from his soulless self and took care of him?

The only episode that compares in focusing on Angel and his psyche is Amends, as opposed to every other interaction between Spike and Buffy in Season Seven.

Hi, sorry this took so long.

So tbh, this is one of the first times I'm seeing this argument because it's just not common in the buffy circles I'm in. I'm actually a bit shocked that it is even an argument that exists and that is being used in some kind of attempt at justifying or even defending the terrible way the show handled the abuse buffy suffered.

I'm aware that much of the show's idea of what it means to be a hero lies in the idea of perservering despite everything, taking the punches life throws at you and continuing despite it all. Being kind and compassionate through it all because that's the hero's responsiblity, etc. But I don't think you can make that argument when it comes to gendered abuse, especially for a show that calls itself "feminist". It's frankly the opposite of that, it's offensive and misogynistic to the core.

Women are already educated since birth to prioritize other people's needs and comfort, especially men's, over their own. They're made to swallow their pain, their suffering for the comfort of the others, to not "disturb the peace" of their environment, to not make things uncomfortable, to not be "selfish". That is a huge component of patriarchy, whether that is about being a good mother and a good wife or to more extreme cases like being silent about your own abuse. And when women do talk about their abuse, that's usually accompanied by the overanalyzing of their every action and victim blaming; they did something to "earn" getting abused. You know, like Buffy in S6.

So no, I don't think buffy "forgiving" her would-be rapist simply because he's got a soul now is a good storytelling point by any mark. And that's made even worse by the fact she can't really forgive him because the show didn't want to acknowledge it again.

Faith, Angel and Willow, for instance, all had their wrongdoings acknowledged in the text to some extend: Faith went to prison, Willow goes to England and is afraid to use her powers again and Angel is isolated from the rest of the scoobies and at one point even tries to kill himself. Spike gets a soul in an ambiguous way where he makes it seem like he's going to use it to "punish" buffy for rejecting him and then goes back to sunnydale where buffy procedes to protect and take care of him after learning he's got a soul "for her", something that she keeps doing even after he proves himself a danger to her friends and family, even after he starts killing again. So I don't think her "forgiving" him is really comparable to the other instances in the show even if we might think some of them "got off easily" too.

(I think you can only make that argument for Willow, but to me what is different about her is that Willow was not a demon -- she's a human being and that separates her from the other villains. Even though she's killed someone, buffy's not a cop, it's not her job to bring "justice" in that sense, so I think her reaction is understandable).

I'm not really sure I'd say buffy completely separates angel and angelus, she always calls him "angel" even when he's soulless. I think her reaction in Amends is mainly about stopping him from killing himself and I believe she'd do that for anyone. She obviously still loves him and has conflicted feelings about what happened but I never get the impression that what he did to her is being swept under a rug -- they both very much acknowledge the damage that he's caused and how much he hurt her. And again, angel suffers the consequences of that by being isolated from the group, things are never really the same for them after S2, even though they try to lead a somewhat normal relationship after a lot of resistence. It's different from spike and buffy where their "relationship" literally blossoms from the abuse or better yet from pretending the abuse didn't happen.

I wouldn't be opposed to Buffy forgiving spike if that was actually an arc in the show but it wasn't. You can't have an arc about forgiveness when you can't even talk about what happened, when you can't even admit there was someone who was clearly in the wrong, someone who took advantage of the other person and hurt them the most, instead of vague allusions and conversations about "mutual abuse" (if you subscribe to the idea of mutual abuse, you're admitting Buffy did something to earn it). Amends was very explicit -- it was about the importance of keeping fighting and striving to do good even when you think of yourself as a lost cause because of the bad things you did. Your past doesn't define you, you can always choose to do better, to be better.

[coraniaid]

In the spirit of your 'What if Gwendolyn Post was the First Evil post?' Are there any other one off villains you think would be better or just funnier slotted into the big bad spot of s7?

OK, so, as you know, I think the First Evil is ... uh, not very impressive as a season villain. In Amends, the role of the First Evil is basically just to make the fact Angel feels bad (about all the times he killed people in general and hurt Buffy in particular) something that exists outside of him, something that Buffy can talk to and which has minions she can hit. It's not really meant to be load-bearing even for that episode, let alone for a whole season.

But, at the same time, I think there was a lot that the writers could have done with the First but didn't (either because the right actors weren't available or they just chose not to or maybe they just didn't think about). So it doesn't feel quite fair to compare the potential of different one-off villains with the reality of how the First was actually implemented, if that makes sense. I don't want to suggest that the Season 7 writers couldn't have made any villain seem overwrought and bombastic and ineffective if they'd tried.

That being said, my very first response to this ask was "well, any of them would work better, wouldn't they?". But on reflection I'm not sure that's true. Here's the pros and cons of some of the better choices:

Catherine Madison, from Season 1's Witch. Pros: well, bringing back an early Season 1 villain would tie into the whole back-to-school vibe this season plays with for a bit, right? As a stereotypical evil witch, Catherine also works as a potential foil to Willow, whose own struggles with evil magic are a somewhat neglected arc this season. The rebuilding of the old high school gives you an excuse to have a scene where, let's say, the trophy Catherine is trapped in -- which we know survived the school getting blown up, because we see it in Doomed -- gets broken in half, and that's enough to free her. And it brings Amy back into the story, which of course I like (even if nobody else would). And Catherine's powers were suitably vaguely defined that you can make her powerful enough to cause some real problems, I think. Cons: Catherine doesn't really mean much to Buffy herself, does she? And she didn't have many aspirations beyond "keep reliving her glory days at high school". I think it might have been fun to bring her back for one more episode, but I don't think she works as a Big Bad.

Moloch the Corrupter from I Robot ... You Jane. Pro: again, another Season 1 monster of the week with ties to Willow. Actually does get built up as a serious, potentially world-ending threat (he's the only villain in the show's history who anyone worries about getting access to nuclear weapons, for a start), and as the name suggests he's implied to have some sort of mass mind control power ("more and more people have fallen under his mesmerizing power", per his introduction). He's at least centuries old, too, which puts him in the same category as previous Big Bads like the Master and Angelus and Glory. Cons: he's basically just Jasmine from Angel, right? Would be a bit weird to have both shows fighting against effectively the same Big Bad with nobody realizing. Oh, and also he's presumably very, very dead.

The Sisterhood of Jhe from The Zeppo. Pros: if you're still going to do the Potentials storyline, then having their counterparts be an all female apocalypse cult who "exist solely to bring about the world's destruction" makes some sense. And Faith's fought them before too, so you even have an excuse to bring her back. Cons: the Sisterhood of Jhe don't have any established character traits or individual personalities, because they are, in fact, just as much of a non-entity as the First was.

Marcie Ross, the invisible girl from Out of Mind, Out of Sight. Pros: Season 1 villain, so again makes for good sense of thematic closure. Still alive, not currently trapped in a trophy of her own younger self, and (since the last we saw of her she was being trained as an assassin by the government) probably still evil. If Clea Duvall had been too busy to come back to reprise the role then you wouldn't even need to recast her because she's, you know, invisible. Would save a bit of money actually. Cons: Worryingly close to bringing the Initiative back. Being invisible and knowing how to play the flute -- which are Marcie's only actual demonstrated abilities -- is not actually a very impressive set of superpowers for a Big Bad. Why would Marcie come back anyway?

Tucker Wells, Andrew's brother as seen in The Prom. Pros: another villain with a weird high school obsession who isn't dead as far as we know. No connection to Willow or Giles or Xander, but a very obvious connection to Andrew Wells, who the Season 7 writers have clearly decided is at least as important as those characters are. Andrew and Tucker's sibling reputation could parallel Buffy's and Dawn's? Help tease the Andrew-centric spinoff that (allegedly) people were toying with at the time. Cons: I'm not one of the Season 7 writers, so I don't actually care about Andrew Wells (or his brother) in the slightest. This would have been awful.

(Oh, and obligatory reminder that the best possible villain for Season 7 to have brought back as the Big Bad would have been Drusilla.)