#indoctrinating them into the OP fandom

[phant0ma]

dude one of my friends (who doesn't watch/read one piece at all) keeps sending me one piece reels on instagram bc whenever they see it they think of me. I'm sure their feed is full of one piece posts now and it's all bc of me 😭

Hyperfixation so bad people think of me when they see it

[lord-squiggletits]

Thinking about IDW Optimus again and the fandom's aversion to even acknowledging he exists bc he's a cop or whatever and like. Most of the time people literally just replace him in fic with some white bread knockoff archivist/librarian, not even bothering to keep in IDW OP's personality (which just bolsters my theory that the problem isn't him being a cop the problem is that he's too multifaceted but I digress).

And it's annoying because you could totally write IDW Optimus as not a cop while still keeping his canon personality. You just have to realize that the reason IDW OP became a cop in the first place is because his formative experiences when he was young shaped him to basically have two priorities: 1. To help people and 2. To do it by being on the ground actively doing something about the bad things happening to people.

IDW OP would not be a fucking librarian or archivist because even though those are noble pursuits that can help people and change the world, and Optimus is educated/smart enough for the profession, he wouldn't be satisfied just teaching people or spreading information about activism or social-historical studies or whatever. He's a mech of action: he needs to be doing things right now, in front of him, to people he sees/interacts with in his own eyes, improving society with concrete actions rather than indirect action or abstract inspiration.

So basically the alternate job ideas I can think of for IDW Optimus are something like being a firefighter (or any first responder really) or even whatever the equivalent would be to international charity organizations, those ones that send volunteers across the world to do stuff like build housing/infrastructure or distribute food or whatnot. I mean I can't imagine that the equivalents to these things would be exactly the same in IDW Cybertron, so you'd have to get a little creative with it, but these are just some ideas of jobs that would fit IDW Optimus' personality while still filling the niche of "not a cop" for people who are just that opposed to it.

Though I think the revulsion against coptimus is annoying in general tbh because IDW is already a continuity that rejects the idea of easily defined good/evil people or groups. It feels like people really want Optimus to be a good person in a very sanitized and academically approved way, so he has to be nice and squeaky clean but also like, a perfect leftist who knows theory and holds the most progressive opinions on every single issue....

There is no room for the idea that good people join bad institutions, there's no room for the idea that the reason people think cops are good guys who help people is bc of the government propaganda everything is saturated with. Hell there's even later issues of the Optimus Prime series by John Barber where Optimus like, MULTIPLE FUCKING TIMES, is shown in flashbacks grappling with the fact that he as a cop/Zeta's regime that he works for might not actually be improving society like they say they are, and dealing with the fact that he feels more like a lesser evil compared to the Decepticons (perhaps not "lesser" at all).

It's like there's this idea in fandom of like, fictional media and opinions on media having to strictly adhere to progressive ideals at all times. So people just go "cops bad, this character is a cop, therefore they suck" without being willing to engage with the idea of like. IDW OP is born wanting to fight injustice and protect people -> a good way to protect people is to fight the people who are hurting them and committing crimes -> surely following the law is a reliable moral code to guide him in this -> becomes a cop because he's been indoctrinated into a society (much like our own) where he was told that the state/the law exist to protect the people and being a cop means you get to fight bad guys that hurt people. There's really so many interesting concepts there that could be (and CANONICALLY IS) explored about how good, well-intentioned people can be led to harmful actions simply because they have been fed the idea that the things they're doing are good/helpful/noble. Which is especially important for a character like Optimus, I think, who has a cultural icon status as The Irrefutable and Perfect Good, so it's really important actually to use IDW Optimus as an example of how even the most noble people you know have held problematic beliefs or done bad things at some point in their life. You know, because no one is born perfect and ideologically pure, and in fact society is constructed in exactly a manner to make people drink the kool-aid and believe that the systems designed to hurt them/others are just a normal, if flawed, society.

I mean the writing in IDW literally has Optimus deal directly and indirectly with the harm he's done as a cop and how people don't/didn't trust him because of that. I don't know what the fuck else this fandom wants if the source material literally saying "OP realizes that cops suck and he hurt people and earned their disdain by doing the things he did" doesn't stop them from going EW cop bastard sucks and is the worst Optimus. Like the narrative barely stops short of outright saying ACAB and Optimus himself would agree with this sentiment.

At that point, the collective fandom beef with IDW OP isn't because he's a cop and the narrative didn't do enough to condemn that. The problem is literally just that people don't read and don't care

TLDR: Consider the fact that good people can do bad things sometimes especially when living from birth in a corrupt society that thoroughly disguises its vices/oppressive structures as completely normal parts of existence

[all-de-fandoms]

Lmfao as a religious trauma survivor and a product of Christian fundie indoctrination myself I am in full support of calling fandom wank "purity culture" and the use of the word "puriteen"* as well actually.

It perfectly encompasses what purity culture was. It wasn't just about "no sex before marriage"; it policed every fucking thing you did and forced you to walk on eggshells your entire life so your Magical Sky Daddy didn't clutch His heavenly pearls at your naughty behaviours.

Holding hands with someone you weren't married to? Gateway to sin. Making eyes at someone of the opposite sex? Gateway to sin. Thinking "impure" thoughts about someone else? Thoughtcrime Gateway to sin. Wearing the "wrong" type of clothes? Listening to the "wrong" kind of music? Having the "wrong" sort of values? Enjoying the "wrong" kind of media? All of it was seen as a stepping stone toward being a sinful godless heathen (and to some people it was essentially just as bad).

And it wasn't enough to just avoid BadWrong Behaviours, either. In my ex-community you were expected to express your disapproval of it and be well versed in the theological how's and whys. Does any of that sound familiar?

Purity culture at its core is so much more than "wear this purity ring and pinky promise to Jesus that you'll never have sex until you're married" and if you didn't realise that while you were there you weren't paying attention.

*OP EDIT AS OF 24/02/24

Hey guys just a quick note I had said I ""support"" the use of puriteen because of its reference to Puritans, but as of now my views regarding that have changed somewhat. I still agree that young people who act like this are still emulating Puritan culture but I no longer agree with deriding them based on their age because ageism is bad actually. Thanks!

[vergess]

Again, I agree with you the two are not equivalent. On most things actually, that it's awful to compare them. And I think OP does too. I just think OP didn't meant it like you understood, tho you convinced me she could have phrased it better. I always get stressed about peoples words getting taken as more cruel and vile than intended because that happen to me due to my autism, I guess I got a bit emotional about this, sorry... Also, the cult links lead to a discussion on AO3, is that intended?

So, okay, I'm going to try to approach this more calmly, since you're clearly being genuine here. OP probably didn't intend to equate those two things, but, nevertheless, that is what the post does. Intent does not erase effect.

I agree that OP almost certainly did not mean to say that sexually harassing trans kids is the same thing as asking an artist a question about a comic they wrote decades ago.

Unfortunately, that is nonetheless what happened in the post.

Perhaps it was carelessness, perhaps it was accidental, the list of possible explanations is infinite. But the simple fact is, the equivalence was drawn.

Whether intentionally or not, that post takes a perfectly innocuous question about a comic book, and turns it into talking about sexually abusing children, with no cause and no warning.

Even in the post possible scenario, it's wildly inappropriate.

It's also a very common false equivalence specifically used by a politically active cult with a death toll. A cult which specifically uses discussions of fandom to recruit children who they then exploit, harass, and indoctrinate. A cult which also targets children and adults from marginalized groups (disproportionately queer people and Asian people) for harassment and violence.

It's a false equivalence that people need to stop making for multiple reasons, including harm done to survivors of childhood sexual abuse, harm done by a cult that uses the prevalence of this false equivalence to extend their reach, and which sets back efforts to make people actually take seriously violence done to kids.

There are going to be people who see that and tune out actual cases of real sexual harassment of children because they've been taught that when we say "sexual harassment of trans kids," we mean shit like asking a grown ass cisgender woman about a comic book she wrote decades ago.

And that's not a slippery slope thing. That's a real phenomenon already happening.

It was almost certainly unintentional on the part of the OP.

It's still a reprehensible thing to do, and people in general (not just OP) need to be aware of how common it is, and fucking. Stop. Doing it.

WRT the Ao3 post: I have had OP blocked for a while now, so it seemed rude and inappropriate to go digging through that blog for ~evidence~ when the simple fact is, I'm not actually talking to her, and I don't want to make the discussion about her. I want to point out this pervasive behaviour that needs to stop. So, I grabbed the first post I found from her which discussed the anti-shipper cult, in this case, discussing their piss weird hatred of Ao3 existing. Very much the only point of that link is to provide evidence that she is at least broadly familiar with the cult, because she's mentioned them in the past.

[kob131]

https://rwdestuffs.tumblr.com/post/616806790896680960

Ironwood: Yells, screams, rants extensively, shoots things, breaks things

He never screamed, he never ranted, he broke like one thing (a chess piece) and shoot one guy (who in his mind was trying to stop him from saving people).

Yeah, Ironwood is emotional. He’s a fucking veteran Huntsman fighting a war that he was lied about by the man he trusted and the allies he thought he had. He also kind of just had HIS ONE GOOD ARM FUCKING SCORTCHED AND HIS PARANOIA CONFIRMED. Pretty fucking understandable, you shouldn’t be misrepresenting him.

Fandom: Clearly this man is a rational, logical person who is making his decisions based solely on cold reason. RWBY is being too emotional.

Who the FUCK has argued that James is operating under cold logic? He’s not, of course he’s acting under emotion.

What are you even saying?

RWBYJNR: Lies, cheats, steals, rants about a politician trying to do his best to protect a kingdom from going to shit, and also harassed a kid when they’re lied to

You know, Psyga, it doesn’t help that not only are you ALSO misrepresenting shit (They never cheated, the stealing of one airship pales to the numerous DEATHS that would have been caused, they didn’t rant and ONE PERSON  messed with Oscar while the LEADER RUBY comforted him) but you yourself are guilty of this shit (Lying, cheating and stealing? Gee I wonder who else does that? *cough* RWDE *cough*)

Fandom: Clearly these group of well thinking, mentally scarred teenagers are rational, logical people who are making their decisions solely on reason. Ironwood is being too emotional.

Again, WHO IS SAYING THAT? Also, implying that Ironwood isn’t basically a walking mass of mental scars.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe grown men in charge of armies should be held to a slightly higher standard than teenagers, rather than the other way around?

Has it occurred to you that they’re both adults, they’re both fucking up and everyone screwed Salem’s pooch here? Honestly the only guy doing good is Ozpin. Yeah, he started this mess but he did some damn good work before Cinderella.

Also no Psyga, I am not supporting your hypocritical ass. “they’re taught to be pinnacles of man kind’’ By the headmasters....which includes IRONWOOD.

I laugh at the idea of James “A few city blocks”   Ironwood trying to do the best to protect his kingdom. Especially when he peaced out and decided to scarper not cos of Salem but due to a chess piece, all while ignoring the fact he had Salem agents on his stupid little rock already to instead focus on shrieking at RWBY a bout loyalty. 

The same James “I’ll promote you all to Huntsmen, I’m the one to tell my subordinates the truth first and I SUFFER FROM PARANOIA AND PROBABLY A HOST OF OTHER MENTAL SCARS” Ironwood right?

I mean you support Yang Tumblingxelian because ‘uwu vagin- I mean PTSD’ so SURELY you support Ironwood RIGHT?

Also, he freaked out about a chess piece because it’s SALEM’S SYMBOL. Its like saying “Oh its not Hitler it’s just his CALLING CARD”. And no shit James is calling out Team RWBY, he trusted them and they lied to his face. You know, the same position Team RWBY was in with Ozpin.

Plus Ironwood himself lies and steal in regards to supplies from Mantle and rants too, except unlike RWBY he doesn’t have nearly as good of an excuse save for the fact he’s surrounded himself with enablers and refuses to accept or seek out help. 

Amity? Yes.

Supplies? Where? Robyn says they should be going to Mantle, that doesn’t mean they’re Mantle supplies. Show me where it was shown, said or explained he TOOK the supplies.

Also, what enablers? People who put their trust in him? That’s like saying Team RWBY were enablers for Ozpin: it’s the Ace Ops and Winter’s fault for not looking out for their leader, just as it was James’ issue for not looking out for Ozpin.

Like seriously, nothing is ever done to show RWBY as unstable or irrational, at best they are uncertain which is frank;y better than Ironwood or Opzin’s “I know best” attitude because it means they are open to changing rather than breaking the moment they run into a problem their methods can’t solve. 

Changing, like going from opposing lying to lying themselves right AFTER knowing how bad of an idea that is.

This is the fucking Yang/Adam situation all over again, removing fault and agency just because you don’t like the other side.

We also literally see their rationales, they need to get he lamp to Atlas before either Salem’s agents find them or it potentially lures Grimm in. They make a good plan that only doesn’t work out cos the local general decided t bust out a super mech and prance around screaming and they still hung around long enough to help solve the problem that idiot created. 

Strange that you don’t their talk of telling the truth....

When it comes to Mantle their rationales for why its awful and Ironwood’s decisions are wrong are explained both morally and in terms of practicality, Ironwood sometimes listened but usually ignored them cos he’s an arrogant ass. 

Or, you know, he’s been lied to numerous times, he’s in immense physical pain right now, his mental issues are being played on and he’s in a rushed, fucked if you do fucked if you don’t situation.

You know, WHAT THE SHOW FUCKING SHOWS.

On one side is a pack of teenagers dragged into a lot of nightmarish shit they were in no way ready to deal with, who are trying to work together and find a way to save the world. They do this despite being horribly traumatized, physically dismembered in two cases, having to fight off their abusers (to the death in one case), all the while admitting they’re in over their head, they’ve made mistakes, and trying to fix them and generally improve things.

The other side is a military general blatantly abusing his political power to deprive a city of critical resources, leaving them exposed to man eating monsters, declaring martial law to stop the rest of the government from stopping him from outright abandoning the people of that city (and the rest of the planet) to those monsters, ordering the cold-blooded murderer of an elderly woman to steal her magical powers, ordering the arrest of a group of teenagers and one older man because SOME OF THEM vocally disagreed with these actions, then shot a teenage boy for politely disagreeing with him, with the intent being that the boy would die from either the bullet of the long fall that followed. He does all this while insisting he’s being logical, that he’s making the hard choices on everyone elses behalf, and that he is always right. While hallucinating, ranting and screaming about disloyalty, all of which because he failed once (And that’s ignoring how he backstabbed several supposed friends before that traumatizing incident.)

A. Ironwood is also dragged into this by the same metric.

B. James is ALSO in over his head. Everyone not named ‘Ozpin’ is and Ozpin BARELY qualifies.

C. And James is being abused and used too!

D. ‘physically dismembered in two cases’ One and *taps Ironwood’s metal arm*

E. To try and help EVERYONE he’s ‘depriving resources’ because shit ain;t infinite.

F. Aas opposed to the genocidal, ancient witch CONTROLLING the man eating monsters?

G. And the other option? Have everyone DIE in his eyes.

H. Cold blooded murder...that she agreed to of her own volition....

I. You misspelled ALL as SOME. As in, ALL of the protags disagreed with him.

J. ANd you know, trying to stop him.

K. You know, like literally everyone else

M. He never hallucinated, ranted or screamed

James Ironwood is a coward and a traitor to the Kingdom of Atlas. On top of that, he is an entitled little shit that neglected his responsibilities to the civilians of the Kingdom, and then was so fucking arrogant that he was actually OFFENDED that people were angry with him for not doing his job. Quite a lot of that can be blamed on the culture of the Atlas military, of the demands of blind loyalty and yes-men creating an echo chamber without him even noticing. But in the end, he made the decisions. He decided the people of Mantle are an expendable resource, months or even years before Cinder broke into his office. He decided to order the murder of an elderly woman, to overthrow his government, to arrest anyone that dared to disagree with him, and to personally shoot a boy in cold blood. 

You want to know the twisted part? I think those of us that admit Ironwood is in the wrong actually respect him more. We can see how he came to this point, the cultural indoctrination, the dangers of military culture, the PTSD he’s clearly suffered since Beacon... We can feel sympathy for a fallen hero. Those who support him continue to insist that he’s in his right mind, that all his decisions, from volume two onwards, have all been completely logical... And what kind of person would that make him?

Oh fuck you with that “Because I disagree that makes me better bullshit.”

You didn’t portray a fallen hero, you portrayed a flatter version of Adam, denying Ironwood’s reasons, glorifying Team RWBY and painted it black and white.

And before anyone claims I am supporting Team RWBY:

Actually look up my opinions of them on my blog. Or hell, this single post. I think both parties are at fault for the situation here for their own flaws. ANd I feel sad for both them.

The conflict in the fandom, however?

[turtle-in-the-mums]

OOC: Postwar Cybertron Headcanon

In my head, the majority of Cybertron's population are the descendants of bots who for one reason and another ended up living on colony worlds scattered all over the galaxy. Some of those colonies had lost touch with the ancestral home planet long before the war started, and the rest shed their ties around the time Iacon fell.

Those who heard about the end of the war and the very attractive opportunities being offered to those of Cybertronian descent willing to move to Cybertron and help rebuild it didn't necessarily know or care much about the war. A lot of them disparage it and those who fought in it as uncivilized and pointlessly destructive.

Megatron had the Machiavellian (in the sense of "able to look at the ugliest and most brutal political realities and do the ugly and brutal things necessary to counter the worst of the side effects of human (Cybertronian) power politics") good sense and intestinal fortitude to keep his near-absolute power. He has a circle of allies and advisers, and a lot of the day-to-day business of governing is handled by district or neighborhood-level officials and councils, but on matters of top-level policy decisions his word is law. The rules of living in his Protectorate aren't necessarily kind, but they are crystal-clear and freely available to anyone who wants to know about them, and they're backed up by Megs' own treatises on politics and government. One is free to challenge the laws or request guidance regarding how they apply to this or that person or situation--Megs has been known to reconsider or revise some of his decisions when the argument was well-reasoned enough--but if you violate the rules you'll find out how very, very cruel Megatron's regime can be.

Because Megs isn't a sentimentalist or at all prone to idealism, he set up an admissions/immigration system that investigates and thoroughly questions every would-be immigrant about everything, then rejects anyone whose ideology/politics/intentions don't fit with the society the Lord Protector has in mind. Stuff like Functionist beliefs, prejudice against cold-forged bots, cultural grudges, crusading or imperialist mentalities--you either leave it at the orbital Immigration Station or you don't get your entry authorization. Those who were found to be harboring such ideas after being allowed in have their authorizations/citizenship summarily revoked and are either put through a prolonged period of indoctrination and probation or given exactly one day to pack up and get outside the borders of the Protectorate--when the time limit's up there's an automatic bounty put on the head of the offender, and it's sizable enough to guarantee plenty of interest from the citizenry.

Guess where the rejects end up.

Optimus never wanted the Primacy. Orion Pax had serious objections to the corruption and hypocrisies of his society, but he was high enough in the hierarchy not to be as unbearably crushed by them as Megatron and his followers. Reading Megatron's speeches and writings metaphorically opened Orion's optics to a lot of injustices he'd never thought about--like a fish that isn't aware of water until it's taken out of it, Orion just hadn't been aware of the real nature of his world until Megatron pulled him out of it. Still, Orion was for reform rather than revolution. He was a young, naive idealist. Committed to his beliefs and possessed of a fundamentally noble and gentle Spark, but dangerously flawed because he has such a hard time when the world fails to accept and conform to his vision. The ruthless pragmatism of the Matrix mitigated the ill effects of Op's idealism to a degree, and Prowl countered some of the rest, but once the war was over Op let himself believe he could stop compromising and doing the crueler things rulers have to do. He insisted that the natural goodness of the Cybertronian Spark would prevail if it was just given the freedom to do so...and he yielded power to a series of democratically-elected bodies with only the barest of restrictions or restraints.

It's perfectly understandable--Op carried a heavy burden (largely of his own making, but still a massive burden) throughout the war and he was looking forward to a semi-retirement of being an elder statesman. (He wasn't looking forward to remaining a quasi-religious figure, but that's not his decision.) It was nonetheless a massive mistake. Op's ideals aren't nearly as natural and self-evident to the average bot as he so firmly believed they are, and those who came to resettle Cybertron weren't as eager to adopt his vision and live according to his principles as he expected they would be. He failed to account for the tendency of sapient minds to resist large-scale changes of any sort regardless of the circumstances.

As a result, the population of Op's territory is highly fractious, the various levels of government and bureaucracy not under his direct influence are legion and full of pockets of flagrant corruption, the laws and social mores are either oppressive or selectively enforced or both...and he lacks the power to unilaterally correct it. He really, really hates the bitter fact that Megatron's way has actually turned out to be the better option, but he's been consulting with Megs and working with Prowl and the others of his old command to correct his mistakes before he dies.

Megatron's way, of course, has the Achilles' heel of being dependent on the judgement and intentions of whoever has absolute power. Megatron, for all his faults, doesn't seem to care much about the trappings of power or being loved. Starscream likes things like crowns and throne rooms and adulation. Megatron has a goal in mind and he'll do whatever he thinks is necessary to achieve that goal--he'll sit on a throne if that's what will get him closer to his goal, but he won't throw a fit if there isn't a throne available. He'll stand and give orders and make sure they're obeyed. Since his goal is a society that doesn't tolerate functionism, slavery, corruption, or any of the myriad other pernicious habits and ideas his people have used against each other in the past, his tyranny is better than Op's democracy. The problem is that as soon as Megs either gives in to temptation or is replaced by someone else, there's nothing to prevent a new dictator from engaging in the most appalling of abuses of power. Op's preference for spreading power around is a good protection against that sort of thing, but it relies on the general population to decide and enforce a just moral and ethical code...which means the rules are set by the lowest common denominator, and that can be very low indeed.

(I wrote a treatise on post-war Cybertron that casts Megatron as the wise and good mech and Optimus Prime as a willfully-blind fool. I think I've committed some form of fandom heresy.)

[adickaboutspoons]

The thing with Mother Teach is that it's SO interesting & layered, because it IS her trying to temper his expectations as a way of protecting him from a society that WILL punish a brown boy for aspiring above his "God-sanctioned station" in life, but that doesn't mean that it's not abusive. She is perpetuating the religious abuse inflicted upon her by unquestioningly accepting her assigned-by-providence caste & indoctrinating her son to believe the same. Yes, things sure do SEEM unfair, but we aren't allowed to question it, because the people in charge of disseminating the Word of God (who almost certainly also happen to be white & part of the colonial power structure) said it's right, & therefore we just have to accept that we're wrong to suppose it's not. It's using religion as a cudgel to keep people in their place, & discourage both social mobility & reasonable questioning of the status quo (&, considering that we know that Grown Ed HAS accrued the wealth his mother claimed was not for people like them & yet is still barred from the social position that should accompany it, the show gives us a beautifully subtle critique of this iteration of what is essentially the prosperity gospel). I just feel like fandom would do well to come to terms with the fact that a parent can do their very best, try to protect their child, & still be abusive. (I'm going to go a little further & throw Nana under the religious abuse bus & say her portrayal, & Ed's mom, present a more nuanced & realistic take on the abuser than the unrelenting monsters that were Ed & Stede's dads. They're complicated; loving & supportive (as long as you're Acting Correctly), often coming across to outsiders as likable & sympathetic, thus it's not immediately obvious what total shitstains they also are & what devastation they have wreaked upon their child's sense of self-worth). In re: point 3, the princessification babygirlifying of Ed has long troubled me, because it sands away &/or ignores the less acceptable parts of his personality in order to make him sufficiently demure to be palatable. Yes, he fancies a fine fabric, but he ALSO enjoys a good maim. He was visibly excited about the prospect of hobnobbing with posh knobs, but also clearly had a blast with Calico Jack's macho bullshit. It's not an either-or prospect. Focusing on one to the exclusion of the other is detrimental to the complexity & depth of his character (I'm looking at you, DJenks, & your "Ed is a soft uwu baby who can't be arsed to do any of the hard work it takes to actually run an inn" fic. While we're on the topic, I don't love how babygirlifying Ed not only perpetuates racist ideas that a MOC needs to be made completely nonthreatening to be lovable, but the princessification also perpetuates racist stereotypes of lazy POC who need a Strong (White) Hand to keep them in line). I also don't love the "Ed wearing the depression robe/painting himself as a bride is canon confirmation of his preferred gender presentation/he is canonically trans" take. Quite aside from the insipidity of the position that Ed painting himself as a bride = Ed literally wants to be a bride (OP's Doylist breakdown above is god-tier, but even from a Watsonian perspective, it's not like he had another groom doll to paint. FFS, did you expect him to whittle it down until his dolly had trousers too?), the idea that Ed wearing the depression robe is him dabbling in feminine presentation is troubling. Multiple times in S1 Stede is called a woman when he's wearing his robes, & we're ALWAYS meant to understand the person saying it was 1) wrong, & 2) a fucking bully gatekeeping the standard of masculinity. So if Stede can wear the exact same robe & we're still meant to understand him as Sufficiently Masculine, why would we be meant to understand Ed as Feminine? Are you not aligning yourself with the asshole bullies who derided Stede by thinking as much? What is different about Ed that makes him in the robe Feminine?

an incomplete list of terrible but extremely popular Our Flag Means Death takes that I would like to never see again please

(and I do mean popular, as in, lots of people seem to think they're canon, to the point where I feel slightly insane and like I was watching a different show to everyone else)

1. Ed's mum was loving and nice and supportive, if hampered by her bad situation

this comes up more in fic than analysis, to be fair, but good god, what show were some of you watching? this isn't to vilify her, because yeah, she's clearly a product of colonialism, white christian supremacy, and domestic abuse, but like. that doesn't make how she raised Ed good. clearly she was trying to keep him safe, but "we don't deserve nice things", and especially "it's not up to us, it's up to god", speaks to me of someone who squashes down any ambition on her son's part, has fully bought into the lies of christian colonialism, and tries to pass them down to her son.

as does happen in colonised communities, particularly among older generations. I know us white people like to think that every indigenous person is a perfect left-wing anti-imperial activist, but that's simply not the case, and Ed's mum is so clearly an example of an older conservative christian indigenous parent who had to believe the lies told by their coloniser in order to survive, but is now passing on that trauma to their children. and I just...

if I read one more fic where Ed's mum is a perfect loving supportive angel who always believed in her kid and always supported and protected him, I'm gonna scream. yes, it's sweet, and it's fun to sometimes veer from canon and give your blorbo nice things, but it's still veering from canon. and yet, I see very few people acknowledge that, or actually talk about the nuances of Ed's mother, and how she definitely tried to protect him, but was far from sweet, doting, and unconditionally supportive.

2. Ed's loving look when Stede is picking food from his beard in 1x07

like most of these things, I enjoyed it as a joke or exaggeration at first, until I realised that people were actually being serious. but every time I watch that scene, I see Ed looking absently-mindedly over Stede's shoulder, because a) that's what you do when someone leans in to pick something off you, and b) surely the point of the scene is that they're so comfortable and easy together that they don't notice the intimacy of what they're doing, but Lucius, an outside observer, thinks it's obvious. right?? I can't be the only one seeing it???

[sigh]

anyway. finally, the really really big one:

3. Ed is a soft uwu babygirl princess femme bottom sub who loves her cat collar and is teaching Stede how to dom him in the "say you're the captain" scene

I mean, there's not much to say except to link to duke's absolutely phenomenal twitter thread about "how the 'babygirlfication' and infantilization of ofmd ed teach is an extension of racist perceptions of indigenous men being inherently violent and thus needing to be emasculated to be considered sympathetic"

but especially That One Fucking Scene, good lord. talk about taking shit out of context. everyone looked at a slowed-down gif of one shot in the trailer and cried "babygirl!! he's such a simp, he just wants to be dommed!!", when actually that scene is about how a) Stede is cringefail and terrible at being a typical harsh, commanding pirate, and b) Ed is lovingly embarrassed by this. he encourages Stede to assert himself (and give Ed something to do during his probation/help him make amends with the crew), but like. normally. he's acting perfectly normal in that scene, and mostly annoyed by the outfit and embarrassed by how badly Stede fails. but just because he's sitting down while Stede is standing, and he happens to take a breath in that one shot (because, you know, people breathe sometimes), everyone's doubled down on their "submissive babygirl" bullshit, and I can't get the fuck away from it.

which - listen, it's fun for me, too! it's fun to explore exaggerated aspects of a character, it's fun to read/write/draw that angle in smut, I get it! but I keep seeing people keep claim it's literally canon, and I cannot stress enough that that is Straight Up False. for the love of god, please just watch the show without your (potentially kinda racist) bias glasses on, and remember to treat the characters with respect instead of projecting onto their every interaction a shallow dom/sub binary just because you find it hot.

Our Flag is a show very specifically about masculinity, and what it means to be a man; how assumptions about that can harm and restrict men; and how men can grow beyond them. it's a nuanced and sympathetic examination of this. the whole point is that Ed is allowed to like nice fabrics and be tired of violent piracy and still be a man. the point is that two men fall in love - equal, honest, sincere love - and are still men, still exactly who they are.

(on that note, insisting that Ed is canonically trans or femme because of these things often ends up just leaning into gendered stereotypes: men are harsh and active and dominant, and women are soft and passive and submissive, and if Ed's not the former, he must be the latter, right? it also tends to hetero-ify the central relationship, casting Stede as "the boy" and Ed as "the girl", needing one to be masc and one femme. not always, and again, I understand and have enjoyed transformative works that take those elements and run with them, and explore what the story could be like if Ed were trans/nb/etc - but it's still a transformative interpretation. it's not canon.)

relatedly: those fucking wedding toppers! it seemed blatantly obvious to me that half the point of those scenes was that Ed is distraught and blaming himself for Stede leaving because he wasn't the ideal partner. it's his entire arc for the first half of season 2! Ed hates himself and believes there's something wrong about him that makes him unlovable. so he keeps and then discards the wedding toppers, painting himself onto one of them, because he's projecting himself onto an image of ideal/successful romantic love that he thinks Stede wants, and in which he doesn't fit. he's trying to mould himself into someone else to make himself lovable, not realising that Stede already loves him for himself.

so it's important to the whole narrative that Ed's yearning for/projection onto the wedding toppers is false, and born from his insecurity. he gets drunk, and play-acts a stereotypical image of romantic happiness into which he doesn't fit, but real love looks nothing like that, because real love isn't found in stifling hegemonic cultural structures, but honest, emotional connections between people allowed to be their whole, vulnerable selves. Stede is not like the groom, and Ed is not like the bride, because they shouldn't have to be. Ed should not (and does not) have to warp himself into a demure bride in order to be worthy of love: he's already lovable and loved exactly as he is! that's the point!! of the scene!!!!!!

like, it's important that the groom figure isn't actually like Stede, either. yes, it's blond and has a nice, peach-coloured suit, but a) Stede was very specifically unhappy in the posh, heterosexual, married state the figures represent, and b) Stede by this point looks nothing like that figurine. it's directly contrasted with the image of him in the rowboat, scruffy and plain and earnestly in love, rather than fancy, cold ceramic.

[EDIT 29/12/24: I ended up writing a whole Twitter essay about the wedding cake toppers that I then gussied up for Tumblr; so if you want a clearer, more substantial, and better supported argument about those, check that out!]

but no, I have to wade through swathes of art and fic and meta about how badly Ed wants to be a sweet little demure kitty princess, how he wants a wedding night and a ring to prove he's Stede's property, and acting as if this is somehow canon, because people on the internet have zero reading comprehension and are scared of brown men.

the whole point of Our Flag is that you don't need to compress yourself into prescribed social roles, and in fact, doing so will only make you miserable; and that racist, patriarchal, colonial institutions should be resisted and dismantled at every opportunity.

so tell me again why the ultimate message is that Ed and Stede should get married under an arch in front of an altar and their lined-up friends, with flowers and rice falling around them, all dressed in white, one in a suit and one in a dress, with rings and a kiss and a honeymoon after, before they move into a detached house with a yard and a fence and re-adopt the kids that Stede abandoned? and this isn't about promises, fidelity, or even monogamy - I'm specifically talking about everyone in this fandom who seems to think that the ultimate goal is the most stereotypical 20th century cisheteropatriarchal christian wedding, but with the name "matelotage" slapped on top, as if that takes away all of the underlying baggage.

just - I know we're all meant to hate men and masculinity and yadda yadda yadda, but actually, to be earnest for a second, men deserve respect too, because all people and all genders do. and two men are allowed to be in a relationship and still both be men - complex men, with their own, layered relationships to their gender - without having to fall into neatly-arranged dom/sub masc/femme roles, or seal the deal with a hegemonically-approved ceremony.

so please, stop reducing an indigenous lead character to a caricature of a femme uwu princess bottom just because he has long hair, wore a robe once, and you're too scared of brown men to imagine him with proper agency. and then please, for the love of god, stop claiming that that interpretation is canon.

[kernsing]

Commenting on this thread in a separate post because it is so very long, and this is only tangential to the actual discussion.

I really dislike the ‘this interpretation is better/more canonical because [more nuance/better thematic coherency]’ line of argument when it is framed as an objective matter because how people consume, interpret, and integrate stories into their lives is a deeply personal matter that cannot be universalized; and nuance and themes and the value of those things that people see in a story are going to be subjective.

(Note: I don’t know if OP of linked thread meant their words that way, as their original post is untagged and might have just been a thing for their own blog and people who share their view of canon?? and not really a commentary on how other fans perceive Star Wars. Let’s be charitable.)

People will see a story through the lens of their own lives, resonate with different characters and see their stories more clearly than other characters’, give more weight to different lines and less to others, prefer different themes and interpretations of stories on a whole, straight up just like different aesthetics. People are just different. And to some people, stories are Serious Business/When-I’m-Invested-In-A-Story-I-Will-Orient-My-Whole-Life-And-Worldview-Around-It/just so capital I Important to them it will be no wonder that their interpretation of that story is deeply individual and that their differences with others or their past selves will shine through.

Like. I so far have had two separate Star Wars fandom experiences: one from a few years back that ended when I got sucked into different fandoms for a while, and one that started maybe a year ago and hasn’t finished yet. During fandom experience #1, I slanted more anti-Jedi/Jedi-as-cult, and as for #2, I’ve been very pro-Jedi/Jedi-as-culture. And. Both of these viewpoints on the story of Star Wars were and have been so very meaningful to myself. I’ve consumed so many fanworks, fanfic or meta, where both of these interpretations of the Jedi Order and the accompanying themes are so full of nuance about good and evil and morality, and they’re both beautiful and satisfying and good storylines that provoke a lot of thought.

You have a story about religious indoctrination and evil clothed in light, about a slave who was freed but not really freed, about someone who tried to love despite all the walls in his way, etc. (and you can talk about interesting parallels to toxic masculinity, among other things); then you have a different story about good people and good organizations that still fail and fall to outside pressure and corruption, about someone who loved and was loved and how that was still not enough, about light falling to darkness despite trying its very best, etc. (and you can talk about interesting parallels to Greek tragedy, among other things).

Just. These interpretations are all good stories in their own right, can we stop with the vaguely elitist ‘my interpretation is more nuanced’ stuff.

[bitteraristocrat]

OP deserves so much credit for this gorgeous, in-depth, and chillin analysis. And I think the hate comes from folks in the fandom who exalt characters like R!Ciel to their ‘precious baby do-no-harm blorbo” status.  I may be talking out of my arse, but I also think that Western fans have a tendency to completely write off fictional children characters as innocent or immature in the same way that Western media often portrays them. A large motif in Kuroshitsuji is children growing up too fast, or being far more intuitive, cunning, and capable of human cruelty than adults initially perceive them to be. If Our!Ciel came out of “that day” being as cruel and unyielding and bitter as he did, bearing in mind that a month earlier he was terribly demure and mousy, we can only imagine what Real!Ciel would have come out of there looking like. He was already the stronger of the two, and we know (like OP said) that he wanted to keep o!Ciel close and (arguably) controllable. It makes perfect sense to me that he would do anything in his power to make that happen. But, I also want to draw attention to Vincent, who is another character that fans seem to exalt to a “perfect” status. We must remember that this is the Phantomhive Family, the family of the Aristocrat of Evil. I would not at ALL be surprised if he played into their rivalry, and put the complex of survival of the fittest into r!Ciel’s head. AND, and, if Vincent already began indoctrinating r!Ciel into whatever underworld bullshit he was dealing with. That all said, I think both of the twins, but ESPECIALLY r!Ciel would have been exposed to some dark shit and I think Vincent is personally responsible for that and wins the award for Worst Father of the 19th Century. 

hey I'm not trying to get you hate but question about the poison theory... I could believe an older child could do that but why would you think a 5-year-old would? That's the part I think most people just can't get passed

I've answered this before, several times, and I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said, before people realize it's not something I'm arbitrarily making up... it's not "I believe this might happen in fiction" -- I suspected it because there have been well-documented cases of living, breathing 5-year-olds who have done this exact same thing, before. In fact, ones who have done much worse! And it was not an abuse case.

But I realized, very, very quickly, that while some people genuinely wanted to have a discussion, there were a number of people who were asking me about this, (or about asthma in general) in really bad faith? To find fault with me and put words into my mouth, paint me as someone who just hates children for no-reason or doesn't know anything about asthma. Read all of this carefully, please.

The sources and documented evidence out there, of 5-year-olds (and younger) who have killed or harmed animals, infants, are real people... and these deaths and injuries, as a result of these children and what happened to their families, are often extremely sensitive in nature. I can't justify continuing to send links of this type of evidence to people, who dislike my theory, to these studies and documentaries (the amount of content warning labels I'd have to provide, alone...) to... what...? Gawk at? Just to prove that it happens?

Should I have to explain to strangers or irritated people who have a reason not to like me, for what I think about a fictional story or character, that I actually have asthma and that I know the difference between types (most people don't know there's different types to begin with) and why none of this is adding up to me? Probably not. I know that this topic is sensitive in nature but suddenly, a lot of people were making judgments about my character and wanted to know details about my personal life. Why is that okay? If I ever came off overly defensive about this in the past, I apologize, that was why.

Back to the subject... Five-year-olds who are capable of getting into things they aren't supposed to, and playing with ""medicine."" Is that a rare occurrence? No. Five-year-olds capable of playing with ""medicine"", knowing the outcome might be harmful...and doing it anyway? Actually a lot more likely, than you think it is. Is it rare? Absolutely, but sadly... but not so rare that it's not well-documented and studied. The evidence is out there, and if people want to find it, they can do so. You don't have to take my word for it. And people can believe, what they want to believe. If they look at all of the behavior shown of RealCiel, and just shrug and say he surely can't be one of those kids. Fine. However...

- I'm suspicious, when a ten-year-old hides the ability he can regurgitate at-will, and likely had to practice this ability to perfection. He could have died, he could have choked, right then and there and just didn't. Am I supposed to believe this is the first time he's done something like that? He did it with such confidence, when he swallowed that huge ring. He knew he could keep it safe, and get it back in what I assume was a much more dignified way. That ring wasn't so much as tarnished, by his stomach acid. Why did he think he'd need this ability? Is it a watchdog secret? Or is it something he figured out on his own, and taught himself? I'm also suspicious, of the circumstances surrounding "that day" and the way real Ciel behaved, up until the moment he left the bedroom. - I'm suspicious that Tanaka was the only person spared and survived the fire, and that this master butler, a man who can stop a bullet with a sword, did nothing and seemed completely panicked... his last words before injury were "Don't come closer, Master Ciel is--!" Master Ciel is what? - I also find it an odd choice, that he trips/falls twice but both times, where moments where his brother was supposed to receive attention and he refocused it back on himself. Once during a fencing lesson when O!Ciel tried to talk to Lizzie, and once more when R!Ciel brought him flowers from the outing, he tripped and they were scattered everywhere. - I find it an odd choice, that O!Ciel was concerned with making everyone on the estate happy and worried about solving all of their problems and was considering the burdens of caring for so many people... while real Ciel compared them to livestock... like currency, and worried if they didn't keep things running right, they'd leave. A remark that wasn't unnoticed, by their father. - I'm actually not-at-all startled by how hard, R!Ciel took being told that his brother was going to leave him, someday. How hard he protested and how emotional he got, I think that part is fairly normal... but I am suspicious, of how immediate and quickly he recovered. The moment he realized, "Oh. ... I don't have a choice." Shouldn't he have cried harder? But he smiled, immediately and his tears dried up on a dime. Maybe a child in his position would have tried to run away... but with a sick brother, how could he? I don't think he just accepted it happily, I don't take that reaction at face value. I think he wanted his circumstances to be very different and someone, saw this and took advantage of him and manipulated him all the way to the events that lead to "that day." - And last but certainly not least... I'm extremely suspicious of the way Sebastian-the-borzoi reacts to Our!Ciel, especially the nose-prodding and constant barking at him, and only him. It looks a lot like a service dog alerting. They bark, they prod. They do not give up. He knew something was wrong, and if nothing else... I trust and have faith in that dog. It's not any one thing Real Ciel did, it's...everything we were shown of their childhood, combined. Could there be another party at play, here? Of course, I think it's obvious this child couldn't have acted alone. Someone with ill intentions... used him.

I don't blame him, for what happened "that day", I don't think he's 'evil' and I'm not 'out to get him' or whatever it is people think. ...

It's something that not a lot of people LIKE to think about, I'm sure, what children are capable of. But not every child who does that, is abused, and it's NOT always the cause of these behaviors. To say so? Is not only incorrect, but... it's really a slap to the face to the parents and caregivers of some of these children. I read about one case of a child who tried to kill his siblings on multiple occasions and blamed other grown adults for years, before he was caught. They found needles, knives, candy, and his mothers meds under the carpet padding in his closet. He would go to school and manipulate teachers and tell them things like, "Mommy didn't pack me a lunch today!" When she actually did, he was throwing his food, in the trash. He was not abused at home or in school, or treated any differently than his other siblings, who did not display any of this behavior.

Some people are simply born "different" and children do very strange things for attention and their ideas of love and affection, there's... a lot of people in this world, that dedicate their entire lives, to trying to help these children and understand why this occurs. To the best of my knowledge, when this occurs and abuse is not present or a cause, it's thought of as something that is neurological, with possible genetic factors at play.

While a lot of them are caught, early on (with symptoms often manifesting beyond a shadow of a doubt, around age 5... the most extreme case I've become aware of, showed alarming and severe signs at age 3 ) ... some children, learn to mask and learn how to avoid getting into trouble, and to make sure they're the most popular and well-loved person in the room. They mask so well, that this never gets properly diagnosed well into adulthood. The adults often lead quite successful lives, and don't usually seek help... because they don't feel like they need help. Why would they, unless they're forced to? For what reason? They say that psychopaths make up 1% (1 in 100 people) of the population. Yet, 20% of the most successful businessmen in CEO positions (1 in 5), are psychopaths. That all being said, this is a theory about a fictional character ...and I don't condone people using it, to hurt someone or to manipulate whether they agree or they don't. People are allowed to interpret Real Ciel differently, than I do. You're allowed to like him and think I'm incorrect. You're allowed to like him, even if I AM correct.

[rjalker]

K we're gonna get off topic here because some people just have to be annoying.

funky-writer-man said:

#yeah yeah good take #isn't OP the one that has the longest blocklist ive ever seen that hates people who have different opinions on characters in the MLB fandom???

A) Why are you reblogging my post if you think you hate me.

B) Yes, I block bigots and other people I want to avoid. Yes, I do in fact have a "free blocklist" tag, where I share the names of bigots I have blocked so that other people can also block them and avoid having to come across their bigotry without warning, and to avoid being harassed. TERFs are one of the main people I block.

C) "hates people who have different opinions on characters" is a funny way to say "blocks misogynists, racists, pedophiles, ableists, and abuse apologists, and calls out their horrible behavior". Yes, I fucking block people in the Miraculous Ladybug fandom. Yes, I do in fact hate these kinds of fucking people. Yes, I do fucking call this shitty behavior out. Because the Miraculous Ladybug fandom is running rampant with bigots.

"But it's a children's show!" You're exclaiming. So was My Little Pony, but I don't think anyone's going to argue that the fandom for it was safe for children. The show is racist and misogynistic as shit, written by middle aged white men who blatantly sexualize children and idolize sexual harassment. They are purposefully teaching children that girls deserve to be punished and suffer even if they haven't done anything wrong, while boys are perfect and never do anything wrong.

I'm not even fucking joking. If you think Miraculous Ladybug being aimed at kids means it's all pure and sweet and innocent, you have no fucking clue how far white men will go to indoctrinate children.

Miraculous Ladybug is literally teaching children that sexual harassment and misogyny are normal and romantic and something everyone should hope for in a relationship.

Yes, I fucking block people in the fandom. Because the fandom is filled with bigots. Bigots who fucking called me a number of slurs before I started blocking people, spamming my inbox and my notes with harassment, literally calling me the R slur and delusional and all fucking manner of ableism simply because I said "sexual harassment is bad".

There are so many fucking misogynists in the fandom who will defend sexual harassment and assault until they run out of fucking oxygen, they will literally say shit like, and this is a direct fucking quote, "Just because she said no doesn't mean she doesn't consent". These people will literally casually spew rape apologism at the drop of a hat, and argue incessantly that even if a girl says no a million times, she's still consenting as long as she doesn't literally punch the guy in the face, despite all her body language (that the fucking writers chose to give her!) screaming that she is upset and wants it to stop.

There are so many fucking pedophiles in the fandom older than I am who write hardcore porn, including rape porn, about the protagonists, who are 13, that many people who are not in the fandom were and are literally convinced they're actually in their 20s because of all the sexualized shit they saw of them. These people who are in their fucking thirties literally post rape fantasies of child characters in the main tags for the characters and the show.

And this isn't even getting into the fucking atrocious levels of racism and ableism in the fandom. This fandom went on fucking harassment sprees of Black people who were calling out the racism in the show and the fandom and literally harassed several people I knew off tumblr entirely.

Sarcasm: But sure, I'm the bad scary Cringey person for....blocking people like this. I'm soooooo cringey and embarassing and bad for blocking misogynists, pedophiles, racists, and ableists. Sure /sarcasm.

Next time either shut the fuck up, or don't reblog my post at all. If you think I'm a Bad Horrible Person that everyone should avoid at all costs, then why the hell are you reblogging my post? At least fucking pretend to have consistent morals.

Anyways don't reblog this to add more examples of the bullshit, I am trying to keep this post on topic. I just had to address this because it's fucking obnoxious.

Dear people who aren't physically disabled who plan to write fantasy settings:

[ID: Several images taken from the Geordi La Forge yes and no meme format, with Geordi holding out a hand disapprovingly for the no section, then pointing in approval for the yes section.

The first image is the meme:

No: "Saying the existance of magic in your setting means there are no disabled people (this literally just means disabled people are killed. AKA eugenics)"

Yes: "Having disabled people who use magical mobility aids and other assistive devices. Realizing that someone is still disabled even if their prosthetic arm is made of magic instead of plastic."

This is followed by four more panels of yes section:

"Geordi la Forge is still literally disabled. His visor helping him does not erase his disability and make him magically abled."

"Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender is still literally disabled even though her Earthbending helps her. It does not make her disability ~magically~ go away."

"Having your disability be accomodated does not mean the disability goes away. Having a prosthetic hand, even one that's made of magic, does not mean you're not disabled."

"Magical mobility aids do not mean disabled people don't exist. It just means they use magical mobility aids instead of plastic or metal ones. A limb made of magic is still a prosthetic even if it's made of the soul of the universe instead of plastic and metal."

Then another no panel: "'There's no disabled people beacuse magic'".

Then one last yes panel: "'Magic helps disabled people in a variety of ways'".

End ID.]

This also applies to science fiction; just because Luke Skywalker's prosthetic hand is super advanced doesn't mean it's no longer a prosthetic, or that he's not disabled. Same with Darth Vader - just because he has a suit that lets him breathe and walk around doesn't mean he's not disabled. (And Star Wars' propensity for making the villains visibly disabled while the heroes disabilities get covered up by super advanced prosthetics is a topic that deserves its own post, especially with how ableist some of the authors of the books are. Troy Denning is especially ableist)

[letheancloud]

I 100% agree and would like to add a few points.

1) "Consumption as activism" is capitalist nonsense. If we all suddenly stopped even THINKING about HP forever, JKR would still have her money, and the UK (and world in general) would still be full of transphobic people in positions of power and authority to make transphobic laws. We as individuals matter very, very little - and consumption is the most individual thing there is.

I'm not saying boycotting or "canceling" don't ever work - in some cases they do, but policing consumption to such a degree that even talking about it with friends is an offense is a waste of time, energy and effort that would be better spent doing, ya know, actual activism.

And yeah, one can do both, but should we really focus on some rando writing Drarry smut as opposed to the actual transphobic politicians and laws?? If y'all put even a quarter of the effort wasted on harassing people (often queer & minors too) on the internet for thoughtcrimes into real activism then the world would be a very different place... But then again, some random fic writer or blogger is far easier to reach and suibait, and that's what lots of people care about, it seems.

2) Piracy is a thing conspicuously missing from OP's points. Maybe because watching a pirated movie on your own time without even telling anyone does not actually benefit JKR in any way shape or form? It's not like anyone would know what you do in your free time.

3) With a fandom as huge as HP it's honestly a fool's errand to try and make everyone forget about it. Let's be honest: we (as in, people on tumblr) are a minority. A small, small percentage of everyone who's ever heard of HP.

Maybe if it was the sort of fandom that spreads through word of mouth or something newer, boycotting it might limit its spread and influence - but it's been THE most successful children's book series for the last decade and more, and I'm sure at this point almost everyone in the world knows of it, including loads of people who have no idea JKR is a TERF or even what a TERF is. This would be even more the case considering many people are unaware of British politics and English-speaking world drama, something that's easy to forget in today's English-speaking internet culture.

So you know what happens if everyone opposed to JKR's transmisoginy is made to leave the HP fandom? The TERFs and Nazis remain. Them, and those who have no idea about JKR's harmful views, or who might not even know what trans people are.

Aka we're leaving possibly thousands of people to be indoctrinated by TERF ideology! Who don't know any better because they CAN'T possibly know any better, not if this is their first foray into English-speaking fandom, as HP was for me back in the day and as it will CONTINUE TO BE regardless of our actions because by now HP is far too big to hide or censor.

So IMO we should still engage with HP - but do so critically. There's plenty of meta being written about JKR's biases (not just transphobia but also racism and fatphobia and way more) and guess what - that's still engaging with HP. Not all engagement has to be positive, after all!

And if someone wants to write fanfic or create fanart or whatever - why not just let them do that, but with a nice FUCK JKR FUCK TERFS disclaimer to prevent misunderstandings and inform people who might not know about JKR's transphobia.

And if we see anyone in the HP fandom voicing support for JKR's views - then deplatform and disengage them, make it clear that the HP fandom, no matter what JKR says, is no place for transphobia.

HP WILL continue to be a juggernaut for the foreseeable future, with or without our consumption and engagement. Policing those is an exercise in futility and a waste of effort. What we CAN do, though, is ensure the fandom is NOT a safe place for TERFs, which can't really be done if everyone BUT TERFs and uninformed people leave completely. (Making true JKR's claim that all HP fans are her supporters - because everyone else left, or didn't know any better!)

This isn't to blame anyone who doesn't want to engage with HP in any way, of course. Tbh I've avoided it in the last few years as well, especially the newer stuff - I very much understand those who feel uncomfortable seeing anything JKR touched!

But one absolutely CAN engage in HP fandom while not supporting JKR, and in fact doing so might reduce her influence on fans. So let's not play this reductive game of "let's harass all HP 'fans' (aka anyone who ever consumes it even critically, apparently) to magically erase transphobia forever" - nobody is going to win except JKR! Which is the last thing we want, obviously.

(BTW before y'all with the reading comprehension of a 3 year old harass me: I am not an HP blog. I do not post or reblog anything HP. I haven't given JKR any money in the last 10 years, not even indirectly. How about you think about WHY harassing some rando on the internet seems like a good use of your time and energy, that could be better spent on, ya know, actual activism and advocacy for trans people?)

"if you want a HP shirt/necklace/earrings/whatever, make your own!!" except if you wear it in public, you're still promoting jkr

"if you want to read the books, just get them from your library!" except libraries pay attention to what people take out, and you are still supporting an author if you library their books

"just play the games!" money goes to her for that

"well, just stream the movies!" she gets money for that

"well, you can always only tell your friend group about HP--" your friends are people! you are promoting HP to other people!

JKR is transphobic. She hates trans people. Just the other day she tweeted something transphobic--specifically, transmisogynistic. In the past she's been transphobic to all types of trans people. She's also bigoted in many other ways.

There are better series. There are other series. Stop coming up with ways to keep the books and fandom alive.

Trans lives are more important than harry potter.