#if you disagree youre just wrong actually

[notepadofalexandria]

The important thing is not that you put your faith in Academics over influencers. "Who you listen to blindly" is the wrong dimension here.

And it's not "do your research" - that's a cop-out that puts a ton of homework on everyone and usually boils down to "listening blindly to a wider array of people who agree with me".

The important step is to constantly be asking yourself "How do I know?"

Critically, intentionally, willing to consider that you might not actually have your shit together. It quickly morphs into follow ups: "Where did I learn this?", "Who else examines this, and do they agree?", "If I was wrong, how could I tell?", "Does this mesh with ALL of my experiences, or only some of them?"

Even better: "How can I explain the people who disagree without just assuming they are stupid or evil?"

You can get pretty good at figuring out your own blind spots by trying to honestly understand the blind spots of others.

[lumyl]

supid idiot <3

[doberbutts]

I always think it's funny whenever I post about an issue that directly affects me and someone responds with "you're an idiot that doesn't know what you're talking about" and I have to be like. Hello. This is my demographic. Do you see this label here? Guess who falls under it OH RIGHT it's me. Maybe I like. Have some amount of idea of what I'm talking about considering this is sampled directly from my life experiences. Just a thought.

[hauntingofhouses]

Very interesting to me that a certain subset of the BES fandom's favourite iterations of Mizu and Akemi are seemingly rooted in the facades they have projected towards the world, and are not accurate representations of their true selves.

And I see this is especially the case with Mizu, where fanon likes to paint her as this dominant, hyper-masculine, smirking Cool GuyTM who's going to give you her strap. And this idea of Mizu is often based on the image of her wearing her glasses, and optionally, with her cloak and big, wide-brimmed kasa.

And what's interesting about this, to me, is that fanon is seemingly falling for her deliberate disguise. Because the glasses (with the optional combination of cloak and hat) represent Mizu's suppression of her true self. She is playing a role.

Take this scene of Mizu in the brothel in Episode 4 for example. Here, not only is Mizu wearing her glasses to symbolise the mask she is wearing, but she is purposely acting like some suave and cocky gentleman, intimidating, calm, in control. Her voice is even deeper than usual, like what we hear in her first scene while facing off with Hachiman the Flesh-Trader in Episode 1.

This act that Mizu puts on is an embodiment of masculine showboating, which is highly effective against weak and insecure men like Hachi, but also against women like those who tried to seduce her at the Shindo House.

And that brings me to how Mizu's mask is actually a direct parallel to Akemi's mask in this very same scene.

Here, Akemi is also putting up an act, playing up her naivety and demure girlishness, using her high-pitched lilted voice, complimenting Mizu and trying to make small talk, all so she can seduce and lure Mizu in to drink the drugged cup of sake.

So what I find so interesting and funny about this scene, characters within it, and the subsequent fandom interpretations of both, is that everyone seems to literally be falling for the mask that Mizu and Akemi are putting up to conceal their identities, guard themselves from the world, and get what they want.

It's also a little frustrating because the fanon seems to twist what actually makes Mizu and Akemi's dynamic so interesting by flattening it completely. Because both here and throughout the story, Mizu and Akemi's entire relationship and treatment of each other is solely built off of masks, assumptions, and misconceptions.

Akemi believes Mizu is a selfish, cocky male samurai who destroyed her ex-fiance's career and life, and who abandoned her to let her get dragged away by her father's guards and forcibly married off to a man she didn't know. on the other hand, Mizu believes Akemi is bratty, naive princess who constantly needs saving and who can't make her own decisions.

These misconceptions are even evident in the framing of their first impressions of each other, both of which unfold in these slow-motion POV shots.

Mizu's first impression of Akemi is that of a beautiful, untouchable princess in a cage. Swirling string music in the background.

Akemi's first impression of Mizu is of a mysterious, stoic "demon" samurai who stole her fiance's scarf. Tense music and the sound of ocean waves in the background.

And then, going back to that scene of them together in Episode 4, both Mizu and Akemi continue to fool each other and hold these assumptions of each other, and they both feed into it, as both are purposely acting within the suppressive roles society binds them to in order to achieve their goals within the means they are allowed (Akemi playing the part of a subservient woman; Mizu playing the part of a dominant man).

But then, for once in both their lives, neither of their usual tactics work.

Akemi is trying to use flattery and seduction on Mizu, but Mizu sees right through it, knowing that Akemi is just trying to manipulate and harm her. Rather than give in to Akemi's tactics, Mizu plays with Akemi's emotions by alluding to Taigen's death, before pinning her down, and then when she starts crying, Mizu just rolls her eyes and tells her to shut up.

On the opposite end, when Mizu tries to use brute force and intimidation, Akemi also sees right through it, not falling for it, and instead says this:

"Under your mask, you're not the killer you pretend to be."

Nonetheless, despite the fact that they see a little bit through each other's masks, they both still hold their presumptions of each other until the very end of the season, with Akemi seeing Mizu as an obnoxious samurai swooping in to save the day, and Mizu seeing Akemi as a damsel in distress.

And what I find a bit irksome is that the fandom also resorts to flattening them to these tropes as well.

Because Mizu is not some cool, smooth-talking samurai with a big dick sword as Akemi (and the fandom) might believe. All of that is the facade she puts up and nothing more. In reality, Mizu is an angry, confused and lonely child, and a masterful artist, who is struggling against her own self-hatred. Master Eiji, her father figure who knows her best, knows this.

And Akemi, on the other hand, is not some girly, sweet, vain and spoiled princess as Mizu might believe. Instead she has never cared for frivolous things like fashion, love or looks, instead favouring poetry and strategy games instead, and has always only cared about her own independence. Seki, her father figure who knows her best, knows this.

But neither is she some authoritative dominatrix, though this is part of her new persona that she is trying to project to get what she wants. Because while Akemi is willful, outspoken, intelligent and authoritative, she can still be naive! She is still often unsure and needs to have her hand held through things, as she is still learning and growing into her full potential. Her new parental/guardian figure, Madame Kaji, knows this as well.

So with all that being said, now that we know that Mizu and Akemi are essentially wearing masks and putting up fronts throughout the show, what would a representation of Mizu's and Akemi's true selves actually look like? Easy. It's in their hair.

This shot on the left is the only time we see Mizu with her hair completely down. In this scene, she's being berated by Mama, and her guard is completely down, she has no weapon, and is no longer wearing any mask, as this is after she showed Mikio "all of herself" and tried to take off the mask of a subservient housewife. Thus, here, she is sad, vulnerable, and feeling small (emphasised further by the framing of the scene). This is a perfect encapsulation of what Mizu is on the inside, underneath all the layers of revenge-obsession and the walls she's put around herself.

In contrast, the only time we Akemi with her hair fully down, she is completely alone in the bath, and this scene takes place after being scorned by her father and left weeping at his feet. But despite all that, Akemi is headstrong, determined, taking the reigns of her life as she makes the choice to run away, but even that choice is reflective of her youthful naivety. She even gets scolded by Seki shortly after this in the next scene, because though she wants to be independent, she still hasn't completely learned to be. Not yet. Regardless, her decisiveness and moment of self-empowerment is emphasised by the framing of the scene, where her face takes up the majority of the shot, and she stares seriously into the middle distance.

To conclude, I wish popular fanon would stop mischaracterising these two, and flattening them into tropes and stereotypes (ie. masculine badass swordsman Mizu and feminine alluring queen but also girly swooning damsel Akemi), all of which just seems... reductive. It also irks me when Akemi is merely upheld as a love interest and romantic device for Mizu and nothing more, when she is literally Mizu's narrative foil (takes far more narrative precedence over romantic interest) and the deuteragonist of this show. She is her own person. That is literally the theme of her entire character and arc.

[faelapis]

so... i don't disagree. but i want to acknowledge that a lot of leftists are inclusive to average white dudes. people like hasan piker has a very "bro-y" image that appeals to young guys. yet they don't get the giant platforms of your ben shapiros or your charlie kirks. they're not economically boosted by billionaires who share their ideals. they don't appear in your youtube ads. why?

well, a lot of it is the material reality of being a leftist.

the right owns most of the podcast circuit and have billions poured in to dominate the content that young men are interested in. the left can't really do that, because we don't have a bunch of rich benefactors. our politics don't benefit the ultra-wealthy.

also, regardless of how nice the left is, right-wing grifters will always find a cherrypicked anecdote of someone who isn't. they will always be an "angry SJW" on a college campus. or mean comments online. it's impossible to make every single leftist nice. we can try, but it won't realistically happen.

most feminists don't say all men are bad. most leftists don't say all white guys are the devil. and the right knows that. but charlie kirk or ben shapiro will always find some "SJW" to mock. their job is to say that the whole left hates you - regardless of whether that's true.

of course, i still think we should strive towards more empathy. i just want to put it into a material context.

i also think young men's pain go beyond social ills like getting rejected/feeling lonely. the big problem, i think, is that homes are too expensive to buy. they're unemployed. they're in debt. they're working 2-3 minimum wage jobs that don't pay enough to move out of their parents houses. no confidence peptalk will fix that.

which is why i think the leftist project should focus on the universality of class struggle. talk about the similarity between our problems, not just our individual identities. having content "for white bros" is nice, but the core of leftist struggle is universal.

and that's something only the left can provide. the right can try, sure. they can pretend to be populists or act like they hate the capitalist establishment, but that'll always be a grift. trump will never raise the minimum wage or make health care affordable for the average guy. he'll never actually "drain the swamp."

i don't think appealing to white dudes is a special science. maybe i'm wrong, but my hypothesis is that it's not impossible to convince these guys - if we offer them something. they need to feel like it's about their freedom, not just everyone else's.

bernie sanders understood that. he was very popular with young men. he's not a lifestyle influencer or an Alpha Male (tm), he's just an old guy who wants you to have healthcare. he was SO popular with young men that his supporters were called "bernie bros!" that was supposed to be "bad!" but he actually got white dudes into leftism!

the clear message, from the entire, UNIFIED left, needs to be that we're all in this together. it's about universal liberation from the capitalist machine. it's a tough fight, but we can do it if we're willing to unite and understand that our struggle is the same.

i think leftism is about love. and that love should be for everyone.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[themyscirah]

Complaining abt Suicide Squad yet again but the fact that they have Waller exposing the alien community to space racist attacks and talking abt how she got to her position through deceit and being a terrible person and stuff is just. Ahsfiwueh JUST SAY YOU DONT KNOW WALLER.

Anyways literally the 3rd mission of the Squad ever (and the first framed as smth Waller picked and not orders from above) was the Squad discrediting and stopping a rogue vigilante who was only arresting POC and funneling white people into white supremacy groups (of which he was the most prominent member) in SUICIDE SQUAD #4. and it's explicitly framed as this mission being personal for Waller that she's hiding from the government bc its illegal like. Guys. Please why are we having her incite (space bc comics) racist attacks now

Also the whole "Amanda got her position through deceit and being a terrible person" NO. she KEPT her position through being shitty and playing complicated political games!!! She wasn't always that way like there is a difference and it is IMPORTANT ppl PLEASEEEE. In Secret Origins #14 we learn Amanda's backstory and she used to be a normal, caring person! Like even after she entered into working in government and politics she wasn't automatically morally bankrupt like please people. She was originally given control of the Squad by Reagan (*sigh* 80s comics...) to distract and get rid of her because she was so successful at pushing progressive social policy in Congress. Acting like she's this static pillar of evil is such a waste of her character and so fucking uninteresting and disrespectful to her arc it drives me MAD.

Like I am NOT saying Waller is all sunshine and rainbows, she fucking SUCKS (said w love <3) but like there's a human being there. It's a progression, she has a character arc like please, DC, please!!! They've fucked up Waller so bad and made her so opaque and uninteresting she can't even be the protagonist of her own story for fucks sake!

Like I don't know how many times I have to scream it until DC hears me or remembers but WALLER IS THE MAIN CHARACTER OF SUICIDE SQUAD. ITS HER BOOK. yet right now she's a cutout to be used as the villain wherever the writers please. Even in her book we get none of her perspective really displayed, no exploration of her thoughts with any kind of understanding of the role she traditionally has played and was made to play in the story.

[the-way-astray]

alright everybody can we please stop tagging me/talking about me in the notes of pro keefe/sokeefe posts. i know strieefe has made it so that it's really funny to talk about how much i love him and how much i'm in denial when i say negative things about him under those posts (and that's all in good fun and not the problem), but we have to think about the fact that the ops are just trying to make a positive post and probably don't want a keefe hater in their notes /srs

[scorpiusmalfoylovesoscarwilde]

I'm ill again because I have the immune system of a sickly victorian child. Therefore I must project onto the harry potter next gen kids

What i think (some) of the next gen kids are like when they're sick:

Scorpius: I've already done a whole post on this but I have no idea how to link posts despite being on this site for years. the short version is, he was a sick child and constantly in and out of hospital so now he cannot gauge when he's actually really sick and needs to just rest, so albus has to forcibly keep him in the dorm or hospital wing otherwise he will still try and go to class even if actively dying

Albus: he's lowkey so dramatic. if he has a small cold you WILL be hearing about it, BUT he's super subtle. he will casually tie it into conversation to make you feel sorry for him and just keep bringing it up until youre like aw no, im so sorry man. he doesnt try with rose anymore, because she will just mock him, she knows what hes doing. he's most obvious about it to Scorpius, he'll start pouting and be like I feel sick 🥺🥺 and Scorpius is immediately like oh poor baby 🥺🥺/gen and does in fact baby him until he feels better

Rose: does not get sick and its infuriating. when there's some kind of bug going around the school, you can guarantee this girl will not get it. she thinks everyone is just being dramatic and trying to get out of class. don't come to her for sympathy unless you actually look like you're on deaths door. the most sympathy surprisingly goes to Scorpius because she has seen this idiot try to attend class whilst not being able to function properly and be escorted out

Hugo: he doesnt get sick often, like a slightly below average getting sick, but my version of hugo is so unbothered by everything, he would end up in hospital or whatever but wont tell anyone, not on purpose, he just never goes out of his way to mention anything until it specifically comes up in conversation. Hes the random kid that pops up, says he has a relevant anecdote, tells you the wildest story youve ever heard so casually, youre left like???? what the fuck?? and how has that never come up before????, then he just dissapears again

James: gets so mopey, he gets so restless and hates having to sit and wait to get better. he'll enjoy not having to go to class for like one day but when you tell him he can't go anywhere or play quidditch or anything he's immediately over it like, 😟😟 wdym??? wdym I have to just lie here until I'm better??? lemme out!!!! LEMME OUT!!!!

Lily: lowkey whiny. she's not usually super whiny but she acts like a little kid when she's sick and will constantly frown and pout and cross her arms and kick her legs. collateral of being the youngest sibling lmao. she wants people to do everything for her and will shout for people to come get the TV remote or something that's only like 2 feet away from her and just shake her arm at it until you pass it. Ginny and Harry do it for her, her brothers do not lmao

Victorie: doesn't usually get sick-sick often, but I headcanon her as being a general athlete, she likes to do triathlons in her spare time, and if she gets injured she literally has to not be able to walk before she stops. she will just keep going. have you seen female footballers? the way they will be wacked in the head and start bleeding everywhere but then be like meh I can keep going. so her.

Louis: cannot stand the wanting to throw up kind of sick. he can deal with anything else, he has a pretty good immune system, he can pretty much carry on with normal stuff, and you won't even realise he's sick, but the second he feels stomach sickness, he is pale as a ghost and out for business. lowkey has emetaphobia, he will just sit so still until he doesn't feel like that anymore trying to make it go away by just 🧍🏻‍♂️if I don't move it won't know I'm here, yk lmao. hates throwing up so fucking bad

Roxanne: takes the sickness as some kind of personal test. is dramatic in the sense that she will go full warrior mode and be like 😈 i will survive 😈 I will not be beaten by these pitiful germs 😈 and will absolutely just rock her way through it, she talks like she's on some kind of quest, and that this is some kind of evaluation of her perseverance

Fred: just lies there. will not move until he's better. doesn't get really dramatic or complain but god forbid you try and make him do something, he'll start going off about how normalised it is for people to push themselves when sick because society wants people to work themselves to death, and doesn't actually care about anyone's health, and everyone just gets so sick of hearing him, they leave him alone

Karl Jenkins: will purposefully cough on people to get them sick too "as a joke"

[kneel-before-queen-loki]

I'm a married cis woman with children, bitch. I've probably dealt with the consequences of our gender more than you have. Have you pushed a human head through your vagina? Or had someone use a speculum to fish dead tissue out of your uterus? I have. Just because you disagree with me doesn't make me part of a group whose opinions you've decided are invalid.

It may be shocking to you that I can be all those things and still be trans-inclusionary. It's because I'm of the opinion that literally everyone is worthy of being respected and helped until they do something that's actually universally recognized as evil, and I think it's categorically wrong to police who's allowed to receive help, especially based on something with no moral quotient.

Maybe consider whether your relationship with trans women is because you want being a woman to be special--the exact thing your condemning in people that have chosen to identify as non-binary for attention. Otherwise why would you give a fuck about excluding them when it's more work than just letting them be helped by the same programs as cis women? It's just the same bioessentialism that's been used to oppress us for the last 10,000 years wrapped with a different bow, and it's going to end the same way.

This is in fact what everyone is thinking, yes. And policing language more won’t make it stop.

[butwhatifidothis]

It really is strange how Edelstans simultaneously dig hard into people that don't agree with their specific interpretation of 3H to the point of being happy they manage to drive those people away... and be so upset and baffled that people become generally disinterested/actively hostile towards 3H content.

If folks get repeatedly driven out of a fandom, and that group of people repeatedly calls anyone who disagrees with their specific interpretation of 3H stupid/illiterate/"acting in bad faith"/sexist/racist/homophobic/etc., and it is repeatedly done by a group of people who insist that 3H's fandom problem is a "both sides" thing, with all of this being dragged into spaces that have nothing to do with 3H, well... obviously people are then going to start to dislike interacting with either 3H in general or its fandom in particular?

Edelstans are the ones spreading the idea that 3H's fandom in totality is shit. They keep trying to make their hands look cleaner than they are by claiming that everyone else's hands are just dirty as/even dirtier than theirs. Of course people who are unaware of everything are going to then assume that everyone's hands are dirty, thus making people not exactly want to shake hands with anyone.

Like, really now. What did they think was going to happen when they directly go after fanartists/fanfic writers who create/say things that go against the Approved Edelstan Status Quo, to the point that a non-zero amount of these creators just up and leave social media entirely? Or after they nitpick every single Disapproved Post and then lie about the post's OP? Or after it becomes a consistent pattern that people who even remotely disagree with Edelstans' opinions are always, without fail, buried with insulting and harassing anons? Or after they're shown time and time again to defend their worst actors with "well their/our victims deserved it because they said a 3H opinion we didn't agree with"? Or when they say that everyone does this shit in 3H's fandom except for them (which is either not believed because it's demonstrably untrue or is actually believed and now those people think the overwhelming majority of 3H's fandom is filled with shit)? Or when they drag 3H discourse into literally actually everything no matter how unrelated?

That with less fandom creators within the fandom space they'd get more content? That harassing and insulting people and accusing them of being this-and-that bigot is going to magically "correct" their minds into seeing The One Truth about 3H? That people are going to just look over all the shit they did just because they allocate the blame of their action on all of 3H's fandom? That people would like 3H more if they constantly remind people of the inarguable worst thing to come from 3H? That this would help 3H's general perception?

Fuckin' no, of course that's just going to make everyone fuck off from 3H. And would you look at that, a shit ton of people have fucked off from 3H since everything has been swept under a "well it'sth a bolth thides ithue tho what can ya do?" rug. And it's been swept under that rug by pretty much the only people who are pulling this shit, who then get shocked - utterly gobsmacked! - that that made them look bad too. That crying "both sides!" included themselves too and not just the people they've been harassing. That saying that the entire fandom is bad everywhere made the entire fandom look bad everywhere.

If Edelstans are really so upset that no one talks about 3H positively anymore, then maybe they should stop being the reason no one likes 3H anymore. Just a thought

[felignis]

i think chappell roan enforcing her boundaries to creepo parasocial fans is so fucking awesome and based and she should be allowed to do whatever she wants forever

[luesmainblog]

i hope it's okay to add my thoughts as well, as this is something i think about a lot as a System(multiple people in one body, which the majority of people see as inherently a delusion) and a Kinnie (essentially "i was this character in a past life". again, most people consider that delusional).

it does not matter how stupid or obviously fake the delusion sounds to you, and it is not your responsibility to bring someone back to reality. in many cases, that can actually be worse for them, not better. what matters is, are they Functioning? do they need help from you in this moment to function? if they are distressed, how do you alleviate the distress? you do have to pick your battles carefully when it comes to delusions. it's relatively easy to show somebody, based on evidence, that they are not turning into a werewolf. it can be much harder to convince them they aren't poisoned, especially if there is no food left to test and no rational reason why they would be. but you know what you CAN do? put a bunch of black food dye in a drink, give it to them and tell them it's activated charcoal and that'll disrupt anything they've ingested. hell, if they're not currently on any oral medication, you can give them the real thing. yes, it's treating the delusion as Real, but it's also performing a harmless action to make them feel safe again. "monster spray" type shit. one that people in other mental health circles may be familiar with is the delusion that you are an evil, horrible person who just poisons everything around you and is better off dead. this one is often hard for people to deal with, because it can come from a number of different places, each with their own approach needed. of course for a normal highschooler you can usually just ask them if they've done [terrible thing someone real did] and when they say no you can declare that CLEARLY they can't be the worst person in the world, then. sometimes it comes from intrusive thoughts that a lot of people are uncomfortable talking about; convincing someone they're not terrible just because they fantasize about fucked up shit is largely an excercise in teaching them that actions are what actually matters, which many people inherently disagree with due to their upbringing. but i honestly think the hardest one has to be people who've ACTUALLY done something wrong - or, at the very least, people who are convinced they did in a past life or another dimension. because with them, you have to focus on moving forward as a better person and living with the guilt, and that one can either be a lot to ask, or it can be extremely frustrating because you don't personally believe this guy was actually dracula, so why is he so worked up about killing people who were not real? sorry, big wall of text; my point is, there are some delusions where if you want to address them and help, you need to be prepared to be uncomfortable and possibly even grapple with some genuinely hard questions. or, you can try and find a way to distract them from their thoughts. it won't always be possible to reality check someone, and you need to be okay with that if you're going to be close with a delusional person.

and i've said this before, but i'll say it again: who cares if the lady at ihop thinks she's cleopatra stuck in the present. what does it matter? let cleopatra work at ihop, it's not your business. if it's not hurting you, and she's managing the stress of time travel just fine, leave it be.

also, i feel like this should go without saying, but one of the worst ways to make someone's distress even worse is to accuse them of faking their mental health issue. seriously, the amount of times i have seen somebody have an anxiety freakout like OP describes and be told "you just want attention, you know damn well there's nothing wrong with the food, sit down" is genuinely heartbreaking. if that's ever happened to you, from the bottom of my heart, i am offering you a full serving of your favorite food.

I want to add to the post I just reblogged about delusions and how to help people with them, but op was specifically schizophrenic, and the last time I tried to share a related story on a post like that, a different OP got extremely angry that I didn't have an identical disorder to them and accused me of derailing, so I'm making a new post.

I have severe anxiety. The things you can believe when you are going through an acute anxiety attack or panic attack can be so extreme they can be classified as delusions. I've been convinced I poisoned myself, I've been convinced I had rabies, I've been convinced a building was going to burn down, I've been convinced my blood was full of bug eggs that were going to hatch and kill me.

Doctors and family members who have helped me the most were people who took those fears seriously, who examined me no matter how irrational my fear was, and who told me why, based on what they observed, my fears were unlikely to be true.

Instead of "you can't possibly have rabies", it was "the dog is vaccinated, so it can't have rabies, and the skin where it nipped you is not broken."

Instead of "Of course your blood isn't full of bug eggs" it was "bug eggs would have hatched by now" which was so coldly logical it completely snapped me out of my panic.

Instead of "I'm sure you didn't poison yourself", the doctor looked at the bug spray and the ingredients and listened to how I used it and said "based on your exposure, you haven't been poisoned".

[byfulcrums]

the political message in tf kills me because it is so complex and it reflects real life so well that it's painful

it's hard to choose a side because both are bad. it's hard to choose a side because war is cruel and so is everyone involved in it. there is no way to escape the violence once you enter this cycle

there are multiple ways of viewing it. the war starts with a revolution that has long since turned into a desire for control. megatron wanted to be free, at first, and yet in the end, he was only another colonizer

the war starts because no one did anything about the treatment of the miners. it starts because people turned a blind eye to the cruelty that was happening right before them

it starts when two people fighting for freedom take their ideals to the extreme. it starts when one refuses to kill and when one bathes in blood

it's just such a complicated conflict

[kyouka-supremacy]

--

[batbirdies]

Man sometimes I make the mistake of reading the notes on a post (don’t do it) and like… this truly is the piss on the poor website.

No one has any reading comprehension and no one can clearly state what they mean. Everyone is so ready to argue at the drop of a hat. No one can make their point with clear language, and then seem to be incapable of rewording a statement if someone doesn’t understand them. Everyone immediately descends to insults upon disagreement, whether real or imaginary.

Debate classes should be mandatory in school is what I’m getting at.

[room-surprise]

Yeah I figured it was a reference to a previous ask! I vaguely remembered you getting an ask like this in the past, and wanting to comment on it back then, but not having time LOL so this time I made sure to reblog so I could share my opinion. Sorry, this is going to be long and a bit meandering. I ended up having to look back and forth in the manga for all kinds of references... 😩

I agree that we don't know exactly what happened with Mithrun, the version we see is from Kabru's imagination, and he's summarizing the events - and Mithrun even says that Kabru got various details wrong, so we can assume that we are being presented with the general idea of what happened, minus anything that Kabru thinks is "too complicated" for Laios to understand...

(Based on Kabru's opinion on Laios, this most likely means omitting any complex emotions, relationships, or politics.)

However, Kui also wants to communicate with us efficiently (she is telling a LOT of story VERY quickly), so while things have been simplified, I don't think she's trying to trick us by drawing deceiving things. In other words, I think we are meant to accept most of the story as true, but to be aware that it's more complex than what Kabru tells us.

So in response to that first question asker, I think it's debatable, and that fans disagree on if Mithrun knew or didn't know if his companions in the dungeon were monsters, if they were real people or monsters, if they started as people and got replaced, if some were monsters and some were people all along... and we can't give a certain answer based solely on what we know from the manga or extra materials so far.

The only things I feel comfortable saying definitively is that the snake spouse was not the real person in any way, because there's no way they (Sultha) were in the dungeon, and no way for the demon to bring them into the dungeon, and we know the dungeon only seems capable of using monsters to make fake copies of people, based on the target's knowledge of the person and how they desire them to act. So the snake spouse Mithrun interacted with is just a copy.

I also don't think we can actually say if Mithrun fought his own comrades at any point or not. He might have, he might not. All we do know is that a lot of them died, which Mithrun describes as "being devoured by the dungeon."

It's implied, but not explicitly shown that Milsiril and Helki went into the dungeon with Mithrun's team... and they got out of the dungeon alive, and came back five years later.

(Might be Milsiril on the left side of the image, and in both images they seem to be walking somewhere after passing through a hole in a wall.)

So we know a lot of the original squad died in the dungeon, but we genuinely don't know if all of them died, and when and how those deaths happened.

So then, for my personal opinion about how aware Mithrun is in the dungeon...

I think the demon seduces and ensnares its prey, similar to the psychic succubus mosquitos, or a magic mirror. Kui introduces the demon to us for the first time during the succubus story, and the chapter cover for "Winged Lion" isn't a picture of the winged lion, but instead "monsters that capture your heart", including the succubi and magic mirrors, implying that the demon is also this type of creature.

(There are other types of monsters shown like the nightmares, mimics, mermaids, etc. which I think is an obfuscation tactic in this case, to make what Kui is doing less obvious. She still wants us to think the WL might possibly be a good guy.)

Like the succubi and the mirror, the demon doesn't need to understand your desire, and you don't have to admit to your desire or consent to it, but it will reflect what is inside of you, and its power allows it to give you what you want.

Kui repeatedly associates mirrors with the demon, but never actually has the main cast fight against a mirror monster (I'd guess because she thought it would be redundant).

And from the way the demon keeps trying to give Marcille copies of people (her father, Falin) I think we're meant to understand that the demon prefers to make copies of people: it's easier, and copies will never get in the way by having free will. They'll keep the dungeon lord pacified, which is what the demon needs so it can feed off of them.

As for Mithrun's friends in the dungeon looking "too lively" compared to Marcille's father to be copies or illusions...

They are more lively than Marcille's father, but Marcille's father is only one type of shapeshifting monster, a doppelganger. Not all monsters that imitate humans in Dungeon Meshi do such a bad job of it.

Is that because doppelgangers are bad mimics that don't need to be convincing? Is it because Marcille isn't cooperating with the doppelganger because she doesn't want it around? We don't know but either possibility makes sense.

Mithrun's friends in the dungeon seem well within the capabilities of the shapeshifter (tanuki), the succubi mosquitos, or maybe a mirror. And we know one tanuki can make multiple illusions of four people at the same time, and that some of them are so convincing that people have a hard time telling them apart from their real loved ones.

(Very lively succubi)

(Tanuki shapeshifter copies.)

Kui's also shown us that even the tanuki shapeshifter (which can make incredibly accurate copies) will make poor quality copies if the target doesn't actually know the person they're copying, or doesn't really have an interest in them:

I think the biggest difference between Marcille's doppelganger and Mithrun's friends is Mithrun and Marcille's desires.

Marcille doesn't want her father's copy around, she's resisting the very idea of it existing at all. She knows that it's a copy because she knows her father is dead, that information is deeply rooted in her psyche and not something she can easily forget... She isn't giving the doppelganger octopus more than her most basic memories to play off of. She isn't cooperating.

But the power of the dungeon is so great that she seems to forget her objections eventually and refers to the doppelganger as her father, and gives it a job to do (though she does seem embarrassed about it)... and this all happens within hours of Marcille becoming Dungeon Lord.

Mithrun wants to be where he is, he wants those friends and that lover to be with him, he wants them to love him unconditionally, and never hurt his feelings. He probably doesn't care if they're real or not, his desire is shallow and selfish, he doesn't love any of them, he loves what they can give him and do for him.

In other words, he is giving the dungeon everything it needs to weave a convincing illusion... and if they act "wrong", would he even care? Would he know? How well does he know them? As long as they're giving him what he desires he'll be happy.

Now, again, it's hard to say what exactly happened in the dungeon since Kabru is retelling the story, but Kui is also probably not trying to make things super complicated and hide basic details.

I think it's clear from the art in the manga that Mithrun swings wildly between being in a delusional state as Dungeon Lord, and being aware of what's happening.

Mithrun's dead expression only goes away when he's interacting with things he doesn't want (gold strippers robbing the dungeon).

(I think the unconscious Canary we see in the left panel is probably supposed to be one of Mithrun's "friends" (real or fake), that was knocked unconscious by the gold peelers while attempting to defend the dungeon.)

When the demon begins to eat him, he starts out dead-eyed and confused, but when he realizes something is wrong, his pupils come back and he begins to struggle:

And as a last thought, I'll just add that the only image we really have of Mithrun's friends during his time as the dungeon lord shows them around a table covered with empty plates and no real signs of food or drink.

We know Kui can draw lavish banquets and beautiful food, she can draw plates that have been decimated with only scraps left behind, to indicate that a feast took place. Why did she leave the table so conspicuously empty in this panel?

I think it is supposed to hint that all except for two of the people in that scene don't eat, because they've been replaced. Kui also avoids showing most of their faces, and the one whose face we can see is one of the people with food on his plate...

(He and the Canary next to him are also the only two people at the table who seem to not be focused on Mithrun.)

But again, it's all debatable, and there isn't a concrete answer for sure. It depends on how you read it and what you feel Kui was trying to communicate...

But I think "Mithrun was delusional and not fully aware, and his friends were replaced by copies or died over time" is probably the most accurate way of describing it, based on everything else Kui shows us about the Dungeon Lords.

Personally I agree with you that Mithrun knew his friends were all illusions, and tbh, I think he was very okay with it

About Mithrun vs Marcille on the demon's copies of real-life people: Mithrun's desires were all related to image and self-worth, never the actual people in his dungeon. He didn't necessarily want the real thing - arguably he doesn't even like Sultha since he thought of the real one as "sketchy" - he just wanted the image of her, he wanted the image of being better than his brother, he wanted the image of having friends, etc. I believe that's why he was so okay with the demon making fake copies of his friends. It contrasts Marcille being so against the lion's attempt to make a copy of her dad. She wanted her actual father, so she strongly rejected the copy. But Mithrun didn't necessarily want Sultha, he wanted the image of her and the pride that came with her choosing him over his brother, so he likely didn't care that the demon was just making illusions. I agree with you that he was aware, at least on a subconscious level, that he was just playing pretend.

There's also that quote where it said his desire was to be safe from anyone who could harm him. It's possible that he was a bit afraid/paranoid of the real-life counterparts, and thought the illusion people couldn't possibly hurt him, so he felt safer around the fake people and ended up preferring them. This way he could have his friends and his girlfriend without the constant fear of getting hurt. He could feel wanted and important and loved without being on edge about what they secretly thought of him, or if they secretly wanted to hurt him. That's exactly what he wanted - the illusions fulfilled his desires better than the real counterparts ever could.

I don't really think it's a matter of image, there was nobody there to put on a show for, the show of having friends was before her became a dungeon lord, to me it's more that If you really believe nobody could ever love the real you, fake friends created by the demon is ok

Marcille had a father that truly loved her and friends that she wanted to protect, so it makes sense she was averse to the version made up by the demon at first, from the hints we get Mithrun had nobody he had a real connection with (here exemplified by what he thought of his teamates and the impression Milsiril had of him contrasted with the dungeon)

I don't really understand if other than Sultha the others are real canaries that ended up being driven away just like people were driven away from Thistle, I don't really put it past them to fall for the demon with the promise of a safer life where they don't have to risk their lives only to realize the downwards spiral is inescapable for the dungeon lord.

I don't think it's as important if he "really liked" Sultha or not, I think it's more related to insecurity and fear of rejection, having his brother chosen over him even tho "he's better" (the "perfect youth" image)

Mithrun was thrown away for being a bastard so being faced with the life he could have had probably broke him, I think there's some pride involved too in a twisted way but I read more like something related to "the life I wish I had", envy/jealousy like Milsiril describes. Being able to love and be loved back was never an option especially after joining the canaries

The illusion of this wasn't perfect as we can see, and with the paranoia and everything I doubt he ever really "preferred" the fakes to real life but rather it was all he had?

Idk I'm not good with words hope this made some sense, but even Marcille who said the recreation of her dad was "unnecessary" (quite the underreaction) still kept him around until the others defeated him so I don't really know what it says about Mithrun, maybe if he wasn't imprisoned into the book he could have manipulated Thistle into accepting a fake Delgal too?