#if dc lets us use them is up for debate

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us over at young: just us gonna give yall the most homoerotic and bestest of friends tim and kon in a dc show ever i promise

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Art credit: @/charscounterattack reposted with permission.

INVINCIBLE VS. MY HERO ACADEMIA: WHEN HEROES KILL

Whether or not heroes should kill people is a hotly debated topic in comics.

There are people who think heroes should never kill, and others who think heroes should kill more. One of the most famous comic book storylines "Under the Red Hood" has Red Hood / Jason Todd debate whether or not it was ethical for Bruce to keep letting the joker live even after the Joker killed Jaso, especially after the Joker killed Jason. If killing the Joker earlier to prevent all future deaths would have been justified. There are like a hundred DC Aus that are like "What if Batman and Superman just started killing people?"

In order to explore this question I'm going to explore two situations in different comics, Invincible and My Hero Academia when the hero, a very idealistic young hero kills someone for the first time.

LET HORI COOK

Storytelling, especially for serialized storytelling which comes out week by week instead of all at once works on the premise of drawing people in by promising that certain future developments and plot points are going to happen. Stories are all about creating expectations, building them, and then paying them off.

Here's an example: The Dabi is a Todoroki theory has existed pretty much since the training camp arc. Horikoshi wasn't in your face about the hints about Toya, but there was just enough hints to make the theory seem more and more plausible. Toya having the same fire quirk as Shoto / Endeavor. Toya mentioning both of them by name. Shoto's two other siblings getting revealed but not Toya. Toya saying that Hawks should have paid attention to him most of all. All of these little pieces came together until Toya finally revealed his identity on live TV in front of both Shoto and Endeavor.

This worked because not only did it give the audience just enough clues that they felt smart for figuring it out, and get invested in the idea of Toya as a Todoroki, it also was well-paced so it didn't seem like Horikoshi forgot about it unlike the traitor plot which went hundreds of chapters without being mentioned. If Toya was revealed to be a Todoroki at the training camp arc with no buildup, it wouldn't be as effective bcause we didn't have years of waiting and theorizing. If Todoroki was revealed to be some guy named Steve after all the hints, it also wouldn't be an effective reveal because there were hints dropped for Toya Todoroki, but there were no Steve hints so it'd feel like the author lied to us.

Themes are like this too. I tend to explain story themes by oversimplifying it as "Question, and answer." The story asks a question, it provides us an answer, and we can come up with our own answer as well. However, there's a middle part I'm skipping out on which is deliberation. Before you can come up with an answer, you obviously need to deliberate it, either by presenting arguments for or against, hearing outside opinions or just thinking things through.

In other words, you need to "Let things cook."

If Toya calling Shoto by his full name at the Training Camp Arc is when we're first asked "Is Toya a Todoroki?" or when the theories first started, then the long middle period between Training Camp Arc and the First War Arc is the deliberation. This is when the story not only added more hints to the idea that Toya was a Todoroki, but also set up why that reveal mattered. Endeavor wanted to atone for his past sins, but one of his victims was no longer alive. Endeavor begins to move on anyway and think he's finally made himself a good hero, but now Toya appears to flip up the reverse Uno Card.

So let's follow this basic formula, for how ideas get developed in My Hero Academia and just any good story.

Question / Introduction

Deliberation

Answer / Conclusion

My Hero Academia and Invincible explore similar themes in regards to heroism, generational trauma and how to be better than the previous generation in both Mark and Deku. I'm going to streamline their arcs down to one basic question for the sake of time. For both the question is:

Can I be a better hero than my Dad?

Deku and Mark might be two characters who cannot possibly seem to be more different, but you can actually list off a lot of similarities between them right away. Deku and Mark are both people who in a world oversaturated with superheroes spent most of their childhoods with no superpowers at all. Also, they were genetically supposed to inherit a quirk / viltrumite powers, but Deku was born quirkless, and Mark was an extremely late bloomer. They are also people who while being powerless civilians for most of their lives worship heroes. Deku collects so much All Might Merch he even stole some from Nighteye after he died, Mark attends comic conventions even after he becomes a superhero.

They also grew up worshipping one hero in particular who was essentially earth's strongest hero, for Mark it was his dad Omni-Man, for Deku it was All Might. They also both get the opportunity to train directly under their favorite hero immediately after they get their powers. At first this makes it seem like they've been given everything they've ever wanted. All Mark has ever wanted was to be a hero like his dad and make his father proud. Not only did Deku just want one person to tell him he could be a hero too even without a quirk, but his very idea of heroism is built around seeing All Might always save people with a smile.

However, both of them suddenly hit complication just when it seems like they've been given everything they've ever wanted. They are both confronted with the fact that their heroes are not who they expected them to be. They are overly idealistic heroes who have been dreaming of being heroes since childhood only to be hit with a much greyer reality. To the point where there innocence becomes a flaw in and of itself. The way they've been coddled and protected all of their lives leaves them completely unaware and unable to spot the grey areas in the world, or the people around them.

For Deku the moral greys exist in the villains around them. In MHA Society, villains are basically just bad guys in suits for the heroes to punch on television. They're seen as a faceless enemy, and there's very little in way of rehabilitation for villains once they're captured. Deku lived in a very black and white world before this point, and he's suddenly presented with the idea that his villains could be morally grey.

Deku's image of All Might is a hero who saves everyone with a smile, so he could never imagine that there are people who All Might has failed to save. He's never stopped to consider where villains came from, or if any of them might have legitimate reasons for their grievances.

This becomes a pretty central theme in MHA. It's first brought up here when Shigaraki talks about All Might acting as if there's no one he can't save. Twice brings it up again in his first backstory chapter, that the heroes only save the virtuous ones.

This is further enforced in the same overhaul arc with members who are loyal to Overhaul because they are society's trash who would have been thrown out otherwise. There is a group of people fiercley loyal to Overhaul who is a terrible boss, because he is the only person who would accept them.

edits belong to @stillness-in-green from bring it all back a tone poem on returning to staus quo located here on ao3.

In the War Arc this long running theme basically reaches a climax with the Hawks and Twice confrontation, where Hawks decides to try to offer Jin a chance to restart because he's deemed him "good" but he won't extend the same helping hand to the league who Hawks has determined as "bad." He then asks Jin to betray his friends in order to be saved, something that Jin rightfully calls out.

That Hawks only wants to save Jin because he's one of the good ones, and he's written off the rest of the league and left them for dead. Hawks choosing to divide between good and bad victims ad only save the one he personally thought was worthy of redemption, makes it impossible for him to save Twice who would never under any circumstances give up on the rest of the league.

Twice's death is a tragedy, but it also presents us a clear example of the failures of the previous generation. Even a hero who sincerely sympathized with a villain and wanted to help them start over wasn't able to help them because of this attitude of selectively picking and choosing who to save. If the heroes only save the innocent the I guess the lives of the guilty are worth less.

This is the questio Toga poses to Ochako, if the heroes killed Twice then are you going to kill me in order to stop me. This is the central subject of Shigaraki's speech to the heroes. That heroes and villains will never uderstand each other, because the entire hero system perpetuates itself on ignoring the needs of societal outcasts and rejects in form of the "innocent people" and those outcasts who aren't having their needs met eventually turn into villains who get systematically put down by heroes. Heroes and villains are incapable of understanding each other and breaking the cycle, because the entire system isn't built on helping people, but merely maintaining the idea that heroes are perfect, faultless saviors so normal people will feel secure, while the people the heroes have failed get swept under the rug so society can keep "functioning."

"You heroes hurt your own families just to help strangers. You heroes pretend to be society's guardians. For generations, you pretended not to see those you couldn't protect. That means your system's all rotten from the inside with maggots crawling out. It all builds up, little by little, over time. You've got the common trash, all too dependent on being protected, and the brave guardians who created the trash that needed coddling. It's a corrupt, vicious, cycle. Everythig I've witnessed, the whole system you've built has always rejected me. Now I'm ready to reject it. That's why I destroy. That's why I took power for myself. Simple enough, Yeah? I don't care if you don't understand. That's what makes us heroes and villains."

So if the starting question is: Can I be a better hero than my dad?

Then everything I've detailed above is deliberation. Here we have, ever since the training camp arc, this slowly built up idea of why All Might was a flawed hero in the end.

Mark has to face the fact that his father is a more morally grey person than he could ever imagine, whereas Deku has to face the fact that the villains are more morally grey in his world, and that makes the heroes look more flawed in comparison as well. The deliberation is all slowly bringing Deku to think over what Shigaraki asked him all the way in the beginning in there first meeting.

Were there ever people that the heroes couldn't save? If so then what are you supposed to do with the victims you can't save after they grow up? This is when Deku begins to start forming his own answer.

Deku hears the advice of both the other OFA users, and The Stinky Old Man (Gran Torino) that killing Shigaraki is the best option, but wants to explore other options.

Scenes like this clearly telegraph what the answer / conclusion Hori is leading us to to be. The same way that Toya is a Todoroki is foreshadowed long in advance, statements like "All for one is a power meant for saving, not killing" clearly set up Deku's Endgame. Deku's end goal is to find a way use his power to save Shigaraki rather than killing him. Everything else is just a matter of deliberation, Deku knows what his edgoal is but the chapters between then and the end of the manga is Deku having to figure out how exactly to save Shigaraki without killing him.

You Heroes Hurt Your Own Families Just to Help Strangers

Invincible is the story of Mark Grayson, the son of Omni Man / Nolan Grayson. He's been told all of his life that his father is a viltrumite, a race of benevolent aliens who send out people like Nolan to alien civilizations in order to uplift their entire civilization. Which is what led Nolan to come to earth and become Earth's greatest heroes.

This turns out to be a big fat lie when within 12 chapters Nolan not only slaughters the guardian's of the globe, but also has a confrontation with his son.

Mark has wanted to be just like his dad his entire life. Only to be slapped in the face with the realization he's known nothing about his dad his entire life, shown rather brilliantly by these panels where Nolan tries to have a normal father / son conversation with Mark while covered in blood.

Nolan isn't from a futuristic utopia but from a brutal, fascist space empire. He didn't come to earth to help bring it up, but to weaken its defenses and make it prime for conquering. He didn't have Mark out of love, but to produce another soldier for the viltrumite empire.

Mark's entire schtick is that he's invincible, but he's so inexperienced as a hero that he gets beat up constantly despite the fact he has the strongest power set in the series b/c he has viltrumite powers. However, not only does the series introduce moral greys by continually showing how Mark even with the best power set in the series constantly gets his ass kicked, it also challenges Mark's black and white thinking and hero worship of his father by showing him the kind of man his father really is.

Mark has wanted to be exactly like his father his entire life, but now that's suddenly a bad thing. His father is a morally reprehensible person and Mark is now a descendant of an alien race meant to conquer worlds. Not only is Mark confronted by who his father really is, but now everyone in Mark's life judges him by comparing him with his father.

Mark has to work with Cecil and be his on-call Superhero, both to be able to pay for college, and also to prove that he's not his dad. The unspoken part of the agreement is that Cecil gets to keep a leash on Mark and Mark has to prove that he'll never turn out like his father to earn Cecil's trust.

Cecil is automatically suspicious of him because if Mark were to turn evil, the planet would have no defenses against him just like it didn't have any for Omni Man. Mark's mother starts to drink and blames Mark for Omni-Man leaving in a drunken moment of weakness because of how much the information that Omni Man only regarded her as a pet affected her.

The comic even shows us that in most alternate universes, mark actually did make the decision to join his father's conquest, and this universe is one of the few exceptions. This is also where we're introduced to a major reoccuring antagonist in the comics, and also the main antagonist / final antagonist of season 2 of the cartoon Angstrom Levy.

Levy is someone who can jump between dimensions and has traveled to almost all of them collecting his alternate selves. He has witnessed for a fact that in most universes Mark sides with his father instead of fighting against him.

Levy enlists the clone bros to build a device that would combine the knowledge of his alternate selves into one individual. This device ends up breaking tragically (partially mark's fault, but levy himself made the decision to stop the machine in order to stop the clone bros from killing Mark). Levy's memories become confused as a result of the machine malfunctioning, and he can't tell the difference between himself and his alternate universe counterparts. This means that Levy now remembers several alternate universes where Mark did turn evil, and remembers them as if they happened to him.

It's better elaborated upon in this post:

The process by which Invincible has had to condense and consolidate the plot beats of the original comic, coupled with the opportunity it's granted the writers to tighten up and emphasize its themes on a second pass, has resulted in a newfound appreciation for how unbelievably fucking good Angstrom Levy's whole character concept is. What's that, Mark? Your main emotional crisis this season is your fear of turning out like your father? Here, have an archnemesis who's out to kill you because his memories were inadvertently overwritten with the lived experiences of hundreds of alternate versions of himself whose friends and families were slaughtered in worlds where you did, in fact, turn out exactly like your father. Because it turns out that that is in fact the multiversal norm. That you turn out like your father. And now you're left to wonder what set of arbitrary coinflips pulled you back from that abyss in this dimension, and whether your luck is going to continue to hold into the future.

Mark is not only hit with the revelation that his father isn't as good as he thought he was, but also while he's in a crisis about about whether or not he will turn out like his father, he learns the answer is yes, in several dimensions he turns out exactly like his father.

In My Hero Academia there are families like the Todoroki's who balance the difference between a hero's obligations to society, and a hero's obligation to society. However, that's a side plot where I'd argue that the main plot for Invincible and it's main focus is what Mark owes to the world as a hero, and what Mark owes to his family.

It's not just that Omniman is trying to invade earth for the Viltrumite empire. It's not just that he failed as a hero, but that he failed as a father. What makes Mark snap, is hearing Omniman call Debbie a pet. Until that point Mark was in denial and still trying to reason with his father.

Invincible is about two intersecting themes: Is Mark obligated to use his incredible powers to help make the world better? Can Mark be a good hero and a good family man?

While MHA has more far reaching societal implications in its themes and questions, Invincible is more specifically about the Grayson Family. It's generational trauma on a society level, vs generational trauma on an individual level. The way Nolan was raised on Viltrumite effects how he raised Mark causing their conflict, and Mark's conflict with his father effects most of his young adulthood when he's trying to figure out what person he wants to be (read: not his dad), but also the way he parents his daughter with Atom Eve.

Omni-man failed Mark as both a hero, and a father. Mark feels the need to overcompensate for what his father did the world and all those innocent people by acting as Cecil's lapdog and doing whatever Cecil tells him.

However, Mark is much more hurt by the personal betrayal than he lets on. It's not just that his father killed a bunch of innocent people, it's also that Mark's father failed as a father, abandoning both him and mom and choosing to be a viltrumite rather than being Mark's father. Mark's stated reason for wanting to be a hero post the omni-man reveal is to prove he's not like his dad to the world, and also make up for the innocent lives he failed to save. However, his unstated underlying reason is Mark is hurt and betrayed his father didn't put his family first, and this causes Mark to always put his family first.

This leads to two insecurities / narrative flaws. One, Mark is insecure about becoming like his father so he tries to prove he's nothing like him by being the most selfless, perfect hero possible. Two, Mark is hurt by being abandoned by his father and doesn't want to become a deadbeat like Nolan so he gets extremely overprotective of his own family.

These two things are obvious in conflict with one another: A hero has an obligation to the common good which sometimes means sacrificing time with your loved ones. However, being a good family man requires a level of selfishness that directly contradicts the selfless hero that Mark is pushing himself to be. In the comic the way Mark prioritizes his family and loved ones over the common good and justice is made even more obvious. His first instinct on seeing Omni-Man again isn't to call him out for being an awful father, but to hug him and ask him to come home. Mark is a distraught son first, and a hero second.

Mark has two flaws, his fear of being like his father makes him try too hard to be a perfect hero, and his trauma over losing his father makes him prioritize his family over being a hero. It's very much a having your cake and eating it too situation, oftentimes heroes make huge sacrifices for their personal lives in order to be heroes, that's basically a theme discussed in the comic with Nolan being absent for a lot of Mark's childhood, and why Mark's relationship with Amber fails.

The show also introduces us to the idea that Mark is so afraid of becoming like his father that he deliberately holds back his punches. Which is good when he's fighting earth villains, but bad when he's facing viltrumites who can only survive being disemboweled, but will also come to wipe out all life on earth if they're allowed to live. In the show it's directly mentioned that Mark is holding back, in the comic it's implied when we see how helpless Mark is in the fight against other viltrumites. Mark lacks the resolve to kill someone and when fighting a viltrumite, failing to put them down can have consequences because they are galactic conquerors who will not show you any mercy.

This all comes to a head in the Angstrom Levy fight where Mark makes his first kill on-screen when beforehand he'd never fought to kill before, and even held back against galaxy conquering aliens who were out to murder him and his dad.

However. before we begin that.

Should superheroes kill?

People often act like whether or not super heroes should kill their villains is a black and white topic, where it actually depends highly on context.

Batman’s an entire character is written around how he wants to redeem Gotham and save the city, most of his villains aren’t even sent to prison they’re sent to Arkham a facility that’s supposed to rehabilitee the mentally ill so they can rejoin society. Batman has decided it’s his place to stop crime, not his place to decide whether or not people have the right to live or redeem themselves.

Batman is also at risk for being just like his villains, that’s why he’s foils with Harvey Dent, someone who tried to prosecute people under the law who then snapped and went full violent mobster vigilante. Batman actually is at risk for walking the same path as Harvey if he decides murder is an option.

In X-Men 97, there was a character known as Rogue who dropped Simon Bolivar Trask off of a building in an act of vigilante justice. This action makes sense in context for several reasons. One Rogue was raised by Mystique and Destiny, is a former member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and began as a terrorist in the comics. She's not really a "moral highground" character like Batman. Two, Boliver Trask built a giant killer robot that resulted in the deaths of millions in Genosha which Rogue is a survivor of. Number three, Trask had no sympathetic reasons for building the genocide robot, he built the sentinels out of bigotry to wipe out mutants. He's not a victim in any way, he's an oppressor facing consequences for his actions.

Batman shooting Harvey Dent, his former best friend, a victim of severe mental illness and trauma that still has hope for recovery, and Rogue dropping the guy who made a genocide robot off of a building are both wildly different situations.

So in the context of MHA we have Shigaraki Tomura, a terrorist who's goal is to destroy japan enough that it will dismantle the hero system for good. Shigaraki Tomura is a ten year old child who lost control of his quirk and killed his family for mistake, he wandered for days in crowded city streets but not a single hero stopped to help him, then he was found by the main villain of the story and groomed for ten years into becoming his successor. Shigaraki is also surrounded by a group of societal outcasts who were failed by society in similiar ways, so Shigaraki knows he wasn't the only one failed by hero society and he starts to wage his war for their sake as much as his own.

In Invincible we have Angstrom Levy. Angstrom is not plotting mass murder the way that Shigaraki is. He is specifically only targetting Mark Grayson's family for revenge (at least the first time he showed up, the second time during the invincible war arc was different). Angstrom's revenge against Mark Grayson is misplaced, but to be fair the accident messed with his brain hardcore and he doesn't remember clearly what happened. He doesn't remember that he's the one who decided to stop the machine in order to help Mark. It's tragic. Angstrom also has the memories of like hundreds of different universes of evil Marks. Even though he's the victim of a tragic accident, he's also a victimizer in that he doesn't choose to just go after Mark, he deliberately picks Mark's family, his mother, and his infant little brother as a way of hurting Mark.

So both of these characters blur the line between villain and victim, but neither of them are like Trask in that they have no sympathetic motivation whatsoever. Shigaraki's actions don't come from bigotry, and he's not an oppressor. Trask was actually trying to do something good before his machine broke and his brains got scrambled, and now he wants personal revenge and to blame all his problems on Mark which is petty yes, but not on Trask's level of heartlessness.

So, there's a case that can be made here for both of them that there's room to save them. After all Mark and Deku aren't killers to begin with. Mark especially has an incredibly vested interest in not becoming a killer. Even if they don't explicitly go out of their way to save and redeem these two people, we're still at this point expecting the heroes to at least take down these two sympathetic figures non-lethally. Mark doesn't want to be like his dad and Deku has said explicitly he wants to save Shigaraki, and that OFA is a power for saving and not killing.

Also to sidestep this argument before people comment on my post with it.

What do you expect the heroes to just let a mass murderer live?

YES!

It happens in comics literally all the time.

Magneto, Wolverine, Jean Grey / Phoenix, Emma Scott, heck, OMNIMAN himself, all characters who have killed lots of people and all characters who get to live and even be on the heroes side. Of these three Jean Grey of all people has the highest body count.

Shonen Jump also has Vegeta. Have you ever heard of Vegeta? Most popular Shonen Rival of all time? Omni-man and Viltrumites are basically just Saiyans.

In real life they wouldn't let a mass murderer walk away but comics are not the same as real life. That's why characters are always punching dinosaurs all the time. Fun fact, if you were to try to punch a dinosaur in real life it would probably hurt your hand. I would advise against it. Dinosaurs are for the most part much stronger than human beings.

As I outlined above Shigaraki and Angstrom are different characters than Trask. They might all be murderers, but the first two have sympathetic elements and are humanized, they are victims of oppression (Angstrom's been killed by viltrumites in a whole bunch of worlds) whereas Trask is an oppressor.

So for both of these stories we are not expecting to see Deku and Mark kill their final villains (for the series and for this season). Deku because he's spent the final third of the series trying to work out a way to save the villains, and Mark because he doesn't want to turn out to be a violent murderer like his father so he's trying to be the most selfless, most perfect hero ever.

I THOUGHT YOU WERE STRONGER

So we finally reach the scenes in question and I thought I'd compare them without much commentary, just highlighting what happens without adding much spin.

So the final episode of Invincible Season 2 and Issue #33 of the comic is where Angstrom and Mark have it out. Angstrom appears in Mark's home and threatens his family. he brings up the comparison between Mark and his father right away. This is also something Angstrom has seen first hand by traveling to multiple universes where Mark has sided with his father.

In the cartoon he's a lot more confused because he's constantly remembering other universe's memories as if he were his own so he genuinely thinks he's taking down an evil viltrumite, in the comic he's being more petty and blaming Mark for his deformity (I think he doesn't remember that he was the one to take the helmet off by choice). In both versions he uses Mark's family as hostages to keep him from fighting back as he tries to send Markk to his death in several different realities.

Angstrom then ups the threat of violence from holding them hostage to threatening to kill them. In both the show and comic he brutally breaks Debbie's arm. Mark is sent through several more realities, only to discover that Debbie's arm is broken and lose his temper.

Mark and Angstrom's fist fight comes to an end, and while Mark has him on the ground he keeps hitting and hitting and hitting long after Angstrom stopped fighting back. Which is what prompts the famous "I thought you were stronger..."

Now, in this situation it looks pretty justifiable that Mark attacked Angstrom so aggressively,. it was self defense for one against a man trying to kill him and he only got truly aggressive after he saw his mother's arm get broken. Not only that he didn't intentionally kill Angstrom, you can argue he went too far in a case of clear self defense. Other people even tell Mark that this one isn't on him, including Cecil who compares Mark to his father the most.

Then, why is Mark so disturbed?

It's because this....

Is a deliberate parallel to this...

It's not just that Mark killed a man, it's that he killed a man by pounding on him relentlessly long after he'd stopped fighting back the exact same way his father did to him during their fight.

There's a difference between Mark say, fighting against a viltrumite and making a deliberate decision to kill them because of the danger that viltrumites represent to other people considering they are planet conquerors, and Mark killing this man because he lost his temper and couldn't control his own strength.

Mark spends the entire season trying to not be like his father, only to see first hand that he's capable of the exact same violence that his father is. The last episode of Season 2 summarizes this moment pretty perfectly in a montage of season 1 moments while Mark screams and breaks the sound barrier trying to push his viltrumite powers to their limits.

Mark: I'm strong enough and I can do this. It's all I've ever wanted for as long as I can remember. I want to do what you do. I want to be just like you. Omni-Man: You will be, son. You will. Mark screaming. Omni-Man: You'll outlast every single fragile being on this planet. You'll live to see this world crumble to dust and blow away. Everyone and everything you know will be gone. Mark screaming. Cecil: You know who else said that to me? Mark: I'm not my dad. Mark screaming some more. KRegg: Your father will be execute and you can return to earth. You will assume the mission to prepare earth for our rule.

So not only is Mark hit with the realization that he's just as capable of being violent and angry as his father is. He also is being forced by the situation to become more violent out of pragmatism, because if he doesn't get strong enough to fight viltrumites then they're going to come to his planet and take everything.

Not only has Mark lost some of his innocence, he's also being forced to throw the rest of it away. It's why Mark drops out of college at the end of the season because any pretense of balancing between his human life and his duty as a hero is gone. He is basically forced to be a viltrumite full time now and will abandon any semblance of trying to live his own life for a very, very long time until his relationship with Eve starts to get serious.

Which is why a pretty justifiable murder in this context is presented as so bloody, gruesome and traumatizing an event for both the audience and Mark himself. We both know there's no coming back from this.

As for the death of main series villain Shigaraki Tomura, Deku ends up being forced to kill Shigaraki in a situation similiar to Mark. Though I will highlight one difference right away. Mark was trying to reason with Angstrom, but he was at no point like "I want to save Angstrom, he's a victim I want to find some other way of ending this bloody conflict between us." Mark just didn't intend to go so far as killing him.

Deku entered the fight with the explicit stated desire to save Shigaraki rather than killing him, which would make him different from the previous generation of heroes because he wouldn't turn a blind eye to society's faults and victims like Shigaraki accused him of.

Deku makes a journey into Shigaraki's mental landscape to find Tenko in a recreation of the memory of the day of his worst trauma. As Tenko's quirk activates, Deku attempts to grab the little boy's hands to comfort him.

Deku's "Why I am here" is markedly different from All Might's. Deku says the reason he wants to save others is to take their hands, comfort them and give them peace, whereas All Might as the strongest hero tried to keep peace by beating all the villains down. Deku's way to become the greatest hero once again, focuses heavily on saving others, and offering his hand to everyone without hesitation instead of picking and choosing who to save like previous generations.

Deku even says that he has to extend a helping hand to everyone because he's learning that the world is more complicated than he thought, he was ignorant to a lot of people's suffering, and he can't sweep their pain under the rug anymore.

For a moment Deku unconditionally extending a hand to Shimura Tenko even as his mental body begins to decay away wins over Shimura Tenko. Though Shigaraki also resists because much like Twice he doesn't want to abandon the rest of his friends even if it means he personally will be saved.

However, any attempts to save Shigaraki are interrupted by AFO suddenly appearing out of nowhere and taking control of Shigaraki's body yet again.

At this point Deku does exactly what Mark does, which is relentlessly punch Shigaraki's body to death in order to kill AFO along with Shigaraki. In some small defese Shigaraki was also there too punching AFO in his mental landscape so he was assisting Deku in defeating AFO he wasn't helpless the entire time.

But, basically we see the same scene happen with Mark.

A hero who does not wish to kill is forced by circumstance to kill a villain. In Deku's case it should be even more devastating because they explicitly went into the fight wanting to save Shigaraki and they believed their power was for saving and not killing.

Yet, we don't get nearly as horrified a response from Deku.

However, instead Deku's final words are just about how he couldn't forgive Shigaraki and had to put a stop to him no matter what.

Even the way the scenes are presented to us are entirely different. Mark punches Angstrom in a wasteland a dry, dead place, until he's soaked in Angstrom's blood, and painted everything around him red. Once again, it's a visual callback to Mark's father beating him half to death, which was Mark's own lowest point.

Whereas, when Deku punches Shigaraki until he disintegrates not only is the violence or horror of Shigaraki's death not acknowledged, but it's played as a triumphant moment where the clouds clear from the sky and the stun starts shining.

In the cartoon Mark killing Angstrom leads to a total screaming breakdown where he has traumatic flashbacks of his dad beating him and pushes himself to break the sound barrier multiple times. It also leads him to making big life changes like dropping out of college to become a hero full time and giving up any pretense of having a normal life. As seen in a scene where he watches Amber from the sky, and is tempted to go down and greet her and just flies off, because Amber represents his connection to his humanity.

Also, Angstrom doesn't even die. He comes back way worse and that's how invinicble war arc starts.

In the aftermath of killing Shigaraki, Deku gets melancholy about not being able to save Shigaraki only to be reassured he did save him in the end. Only to be told by All Might that it's okay because he still saved Shigaraki's heart even if he killed him.

DEKU: "I couldn't save Tenko's life." "I reached out to his heart, and even though his hatred was crushed," "to the very end, Tenko" "was the leader of the League of Villains." ALL MIGHT: "Let me tell you this as someone who has had a near-death experience," "I think it's in the expression on his face at the end." "If there wasn't a crying boy there," "I think his heart was saved after all,"

People also try to convince mark that he did nothing wrong and that there was no helping what he did in a situation like that, but he doesn't let himself believe them.

The ending lines about the last episode of Season 2, are this:

Eve: I'm sorry Mark. It's not fair. You don't deserve this. Eve: You don't deserve this.

Which has a double meaning. Eve is just trying to comfort Mark, because arguably he shouldn't have to feel guilty for fighting in self defense. On the other hand what Mark hears is You don't deserve this in the context of Eve's feelings for him. An alternate timeline version of Eve confessed her love for Mark. Mark was about to bring it up but decided not to. At that moment as Eve embraces and comforts him, what Mark hears because of his own self loathing is that he doesn't deserve Eve comforting him, or her love for him.

Just to clarify I don't think that Mark is crying over Angstrom Levy specifically. In fact over time he's painted to be pathetic in his obsession with revenge, and what he amounts to is just wanting to blame everything on invincible when it was partially caused by his own actions.

However, it's inarguable that killing (or rather seemingly killing Angstrom) deeply impacted Mark and how he saw himself as a hero. It's less about Angstrom, and more about the loss of control, and the realization of how powerful his anger and hatred can get and what that means for him personally.

It also shows us where Mark's priorities lie. Mark wants to be a perfect hero and a perfect family man, and Invincible shows us he can't be both, his desire to protect his family leads him to staining his blood when he was trying so hard to be a good, selfless hero. This is all a part of a deliberate arc where Mark chooses more and more to value his family over being a hero. I'm not going to say whether or not it's the right choice, but it's a choice he makes, as a part of his character development where as he grows up and becomes a father his priorities change.

My point is that this moment has an impactful change on Mark, for arguably the rest of the comic.

Now my question is, with My Hero Academia will the death of Shigaraki Tomura, the series greatest villain and it's greatest victim have an equal impact on Deku's character that Levy's death did on Mark's?

[2004hitalbumsevenswans]

I really enjoyed Batman: Caped Crusader. I was worried (like everyone else) that Bruce Timm would push his Bruce/Barbara obsession, but they barely interact when Bruce is out of costume, and he’s all business as Batman. Barbara is (presumably) about the same age as Bruce in this adaptation, she’s a young public defender, who still lives at home with her dad. Commissioner Gordon is mentioned to have 30 years on the Gotham police force at one point. And the series is loosely based on Batman: Year One by Frank Miller, and has Matt Reeves as a producer. It’s definitely an interpretation of the early years of Batman.

The setting is vaguely and aesthetically set in the 1940s, mirroring the original Batman and riffing on DC comic stories and character interpretations from that time. Clayface’s story and appearance is based on the original interpretation of the character, which I really enjoyed - especially as someone’s who’s read the first couple years of the original Detective Comics/Batman stories. (There’s also a lot of great references to the Adam West show, and a couple of its themes are reimagined for this more noir story.)

I could see the series setting up something between Bruce and Barbara potentially, but their interactions are really blink-and-you’ll-miss-it. There’s a moment where Bruce’s is climbing back onto the Iceberg Lounge yacht and he uses a pick up line on her, which she scoffs at, then he proceeds to use the line on two other young women. There’s another moment that you could say is pre-flirting, or is at least setting up a foundation to further a relationship between the two. Where Barbara makes a comment about Batman letting himself into her office unannounced whenever he feels like it, and she tells him she needs a way to contact him, and he gives her the Batphone number. At this point I think you could make more of an argument for a Harleen/Barbara pairing than her and Bruce.

I think the characters would both individually need a lot more development to be in a romantic relationship. I’ll say this even though I know it will be an unpopular opinion: in this interpretation I wouldn’t mind putting Bruce and Barbara together. I know that’s practically sacrilege coming from someone who’s favourite character is Oracle but hear me out.

My main issues with Bruce and Barbara together (especially when it comes to Timm’s work) is the age difference. It’s often debated but Barbara in most iterations (including current comic canon) is around the same age as Dick, usually a couple of years older, 2-3 at most. Bruce is depicted as having at least 15 years on her, if not more. And most stories that have Bruce and Barbara together also fixate on her being batgirl. Then there’s the tendency to make a Nightwing-Batgirl-Batman love triangle which I don’t want to get into but I hate completely.

None of that is happening here. Barbara has her own storylines that are just as prominent as Bruce and Harvey’s. She’s an adult with agency and flaws and is just as fleshed out as any of the other characters are. I wouldn’t be surprised if the show takes a season or two to develop a romantic relationship between the two of them. Bruce is completely focused on being Batman and sees Bruce Wayne as a persona. He’s callous with peoples feelings (Harvey, notably) and is shown to struggle with smaller acts of empathy, opening himself up to people, and honestly, social skills. The last of which doesnt doesn’t affect him too negatively because he’s a rich and well known man in Gotham.

Compared to the Bruce Wayne of BTAS it was a smart choice to show a Bruce/Batman who struggles with people and emotions. It reminded me a lot of Reeves’ the Batman. In wider Batman media you usually see two types of depictions: a compassionate Batman (which is where I would place BTAS) or a more emotionless, be-stoic-and-punch-the-bad-guys-and-look-badass version that is usually just a male power fantasy.

This version of Batman sets up the foundation for a storyline that is relatively unexplored, and I’m sure they’re going to explore it more in the next season (which has already been greenlit).

I was surprised at the lack of adult themes in the show, it was marketed for an adult audience but could easily fit into a PG13 rating, but that was probably on purpose. I was impressed they managed to have so many strong, fleshed out storylines in only 10, 30 minute episodes. But I wouldn’t expect anything less of Bruce Timm, or some of the other names I recognized attached to the project in various ways (Greg Rucka, JJ Abrams, Matt Reeves, and Ed Brubaker).

While there are a lot of critiques of Timm I agree with, I generally enjoy his work and the care he puts into it. I love Greg Rucka and was really excited to see that he wrote the episode that was more Renee Montoya centric. And while I have my issues with Ed Brubaker, I do enjoy his work.

While the series is visually and technologically based around the 1940s, the politics are more modern. Harleen asks Renee out on a date and she talks about it with Barbara openly. I saw one review call the show “race blind” which I would not agree with. Most of the racism is implied through euphemism (the scene with Lucius Fox and Gentleman ghost), but it’s still felt as a point of friction for multiple characters, it affects how they interact with the world around them. There’s also a line spoken by either detective Flass or Bullock that implies no one in the GCPD wants to follow Renee because she’s gay. It’s cut off before the last word, but again, the meaning is implied.

An issue I always had with the Timmverse is its depictions of female characters. They always feel less real than their male counterparts, less important and less visually stylized. All the important (read: desirable) women have the same body shape. They’re thin and extremely, unnaturally curvy. I’m aware that these characters are supposed to evoke that 50s comic pinup imagery but I always thought it was a bit much. Male characters - even before the animation downgrade in BTAS season 4 - were always way more unique from each other than the female characters. That wasn’t something I felt with Caped Crusader. The three most prominent female characters (Barbara, Renee and Harleen) were all different from each other, with different heights, body shapes, hair and clothing styles. They also all had 3 distinct personalities that were built up through the series. I would argue that the show was as much about the “supporting cast” (characters like Harvey, Commissioner Gordon, Renee and Barbara) as it was about Batman.

Overall I was really impressed by the show. I was disappointed with how short it was. I hope that Renee’s personal life gets a focus with the next season, and I hope they bring back Greg Rucka to write it. I love how he wrote her in Gotham Central. I was a little annoyed that they introduced the Joker at the end of the series (as a peak into the next season). I think he’s too over saturated as a character, and sometimes his introduction into a Batman story takes over everything else, and he’s depicted as Batman’s Moriarty. I do have hope that this won’t happen in Caped Crusader, because it seems that villains will be reoccurring, but there’ll be a large cast, just like in BTAS. That aspect did remind me of the way characters were introduced in those early Batman comics, it really has the same vibe. I also really really do not want Harley to be involved with the Joker in any way. Please keep her as a separate character, this new interpretation of her is great as is, he doesn’t need to be involved.

I would also be interested to see if the show develops Barbara’s character into Oracle. I could see that happening with the introduction of the Joker at the end of season one. Maybe they’re going to rework the Killing Joke? I couldn’t see them having her as batgirl, but I would be interested to see how they worked Oracle into a world with 1940s technology. I’m thinking back to her as Oracle in the Doom that Came to Gotham, and how clever that was. I’m sure they could do something just as interesting with her here. Something more supernatural feels like a long shot, because Timm usually sticks to the more “realistic”, street-level versions of Batman, but they did introduce Gentleman Ghost. So it’s a possibility.

One thing I did think could have been better was some of the voice work. Not the voice acting itself, but the design. It felt too polished alongside the score and the animation. I wish the voice acting had been more atmospheric, had more depth. It felt too clean. Hamish Linklater was great as Bruce/Batman. Following Kevin Conroy is no small feat, and Linklater’s performance felt reminiscent of Conroy without sounding like an impression. It was quiet and unassuming, yet strong.

I’m not usually someone who watches things more than once, but I’m definitely going to be rewatching Caped Crusader soon.

[petite-phthora]

So about that dinner…

[DP x DC fic]

[Love at first... murder? - part 2]

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Part 1

Ao3

---

Danny lets out a long groan as he enters his apartment.

He’s dead tired— hehe, ‘dead’ tired— due to an exhausting schoolday and having been unable to fall back asleep last night after what happened.

So sure, he might have started having a panic attack when he got back to his apartment when what he had just done had finally fully sunken in.

And he might have spiraled even more, even going as far as to try and trap himself in a Fenton thermos, thinking he was back on the path to becoming Dan.

Luckily for him, a green sticky note, left by his favorite unnecessarily cryptic mentor, appeared.

It let him know that he is no more on the path to becoming Dan than prior to the incident and that the actions he had taken that night, while vexatious, were necessary for the betterment of the timeline.

Whatever that means.

By the time he had come to terms with his actions enough to stop spiraling and remember that he has school soon. He checked the time, noticing that he only had a few minutes left until his next class started.

Which meant he had to sprint to his classes and start the day off already tired and emotionally drained. He hadn’t even been able to at least get a coffee beforehand. And so he spent the rest of the day fighting to stay awake during his lessons, sporting eye bags big enough to carry the weight of his sins.

Danny glances at the space-themed clock on the wall that Jazz had gotten him as a housewarming gift. 6 pm. He should probably get started on dinner.

Deciding to go with something simple, as he simply does not have the energy for anything fancy right now, Danny opens the cupboard and grabs the first thing he sees: a box of mac n cheese. Danny rubs his eyes and squints at the box, trying to read the instructions when he gets interrupted by a knock.

…

On his window.

…

Danny turns around to see Red Hood at his window, outside of his 3rd-floor apartment. He pauses before shrugging it off. Stranger things have happened. He sets the box down and makes his way over to the window. He opens the window once he reaches it, only to come face to face with a bouquet of sweet peas, the colors ranging from white and pink to lavender.

Oh, those are his favorite.

He gingerly takes the flowers before looking over the top of the bouquet at the person who handed them to him. Ah, yes. The crime lord. Who had seen him commit murder.

Danny stares at him, debating on whether he should ask him what he’s doing here or thank him for the flowers. Red Hood speaks up before Danny can make a decision.

“So about that dinner… ” He trails off, tone laced with hope and a slight nervousness.

“Right.” Danny nods with understanding, despite not having a clue what Red Hood was talking about, his joke the night before having slipped from his mind.

“I’ve got the entire night planned out for us. First, we’ll have dinner at Pete’s. They recently rebuilt and they have this amazing cannoli, you have to try it sometime.

“And then after dinner, we’ll go to the Gotham Observatory—“

Danny, not even questioning how the crime lord found out where he lives and that he loves space, cuts him off in excitement.

“Wait! Isn’t that the one with the crystal powered telescope?”

Red Hood nods and holds out a hand to him expectantly.

Danny stares at the hand for a moment before shrugging, setting the flowers down on a table, and taking the offered hand. He lets Red Hood lead him out of his own window.

Once Red Hood has helped him down to the ground and led him to his motorcycle, it dawns on Danny he’s going on a date(?) with a known crime lord— or wasn’t it former crime lord now?

Well, who was Danny to refuse a trip to the observatory and some good cannoli?

Who knows, he might even get a new boyfriend out of it.

---

Red Hood takes his helmet off and sets it down on the table between them so he can eat.

Danny tries not to stare too much but damn, he’s handsome, even if he’s still wearing the mask.

Danny takes a bite of his food to try and distract himself, idly noting that ohhh, this is some good spaghetti. He'll have to try the cannoli if it's as good as their pasta.

Red Hood is the one to start the conversation.

“Hey, so, since we didn’t get to talk more last night, I still wanted to thank you for your service to the city”

“My what?”

“I’ve been wanting to kill that insane clown for years now.” Red Hood continues.

“And while I’m a little disappointed that I didn’t get to end his miserable existence myself, I’m so glad he’s finally gone. So, thank you” he says, looking Danny right in the eye with an earnest expression.

Feeling a mix of flustered at the heavy gaze that’s on him, and confused by the other’s words, Danny stammers out a bewildered “You’re… welcome?”

Red Hood nods at him before continuing.

“And you don’t have to worry about others finding out if you don’t want them to. I ain’t a snitch, and I’ll try to keep the Bats off your back the best I can.”

Danny gives him a nod in gratitude.

“Though honestly, I’d doubt you’d have to deal with much trouble even if people did know it was you who got rid of him.

“The Joker has done a lot of horrid shit and caused a lot of grief for Gotham over the years. He’s had it coming for a long time now, so don’t even feel too bad about it. It might even become a local holiday when his death comes out!”

However, something Red Hood had said stood out to Danny. He stiffens before blurting something out in a tone that sounded even more panicked than when he accidentally killed the clown.

“THAT CLOWN I PUNCHED WAS THE JOKER?!”

[barnesafterglow]

sweet like honey

summary: you have a thing for bucky's height. he just might have a thing for all of you

pairing: neighbor!bucky barnes x fem!reader

word count: 2.1k

warnings: modern au, smut (unprotected sex, pull out method, fingering), voyeurism but also not really?, size difference, bucky has BDE, bucky is BDE, bucky is also tall as a motherfucker, excessive use of the word honey, lesbian nat and wanda as always, fayth if you're reading this i'm sorry in advance

a/n: here's the next prompt of my kinktober! i've actually had the time the past couple days to write and and motivation is high so i'm so happy to share this with y'all! please make sure to reblog and comment if you enjoyed this. every single one means the world to me

you can join my kinktober taglist or follow @theafterglowlibrary to stay updated on my fics! 🤍

kinktober masterlist ─ main masterlist

It started as a joke at first. Bucky would pat you on the head as he passed you or comment on how cute and short you were. As if everyone wasn’t short compared to him. Even his roommate, Steve, had to raise his eyes just a hair to meet Bucky’s.

It started as a joke, but somewhere along the way it started to…do things to you.

The way he treated you like something delicate and precious. The way his huge hands touched you so casually. The way his hug completely engulfed you when he was drunk and a little more touchy.

You had moved into your apartment almost a year before, and immediately befriended the two girls - Natasha and Wanda - across the hall. They introduced you to Steve, in the apartment next to yours. They talked about Steve’s roommate, James, who was in Romania visiting his family. You were curious about him, because everyone talked so highly of him. And they were such amazing friends in such a short amount of time to you, you couldn’t imagine how James would be.

When he finally did come home, you didn’t even meet him again for almost a week because you just had opposite schedules.

But when you did… Holy shit.

He was the most gorgeous man you had ever seen. And no one had mentioned how fucking tall he was. You thought Steve was massive, probably 6’6” or so, and even he had to look up to James - or Bucky, as he immediately insisted you call him.

The five of them - you finally met Sam not long after you met Bucky, who lived in DC most of the time but stayed with Bucky and Steve when he had a few weeks off - welcomed you with open arms and became some of your best friends.

Which is why you kept your ever growing crush on Bucky pushed way, way down. You didn’t want to lose them and if anything went wrong - whether it be dating and breaking up or him just not being interested in you that way - you knew you would be the odd one out.

That all changed one day in the early fall. Nat and Wanda - who, you learned very quickly, were a couple - had taken a trip for their anniversary and Steve had gone to visit Sam. Bucky had volunteered to stay behind and make sure their cat, Alpine, was okay. He also said he didn’t want to leave you lonely, but you blushed and swatted him away.

You had just got off work and it had been a completely terrible day. The only thing that got you through was the promise of a movie night with Bucky. 

You wanted to go and see him immediately, but stopped by your apartment to change into something more comfortable first. By the time you were ready to head over, it was still a little earlier than you had originally planned, but you figured Bucky wouldn’t mind.

The door was unlocked, so you let yourself in, but Bucky wasn’t in the kitchen making popcorn like usual. You stopped for a moment and heard to shower running. You debated on whether or not to wait on the couch for him to get done or crawl into his bed and wait for him there. The comforting thought of his soft mattress and the scent of him encompassing you won out, and you were already curled up and ready to start the movie when you heard the shower stop.

You don’t really know what you had expected. You guessed you figured he would at least put underwear on before he came into his room, but you were very, very wrong.

When you looked up at the sound of his footsteps padding down the hall, you sat up to see him completely naked. You gasped and tried to avert your eyes, but ended up looking down and… wow.

Bucky wasn’t just tall. Didn’t just have big hands. He was big - absolutely massive - everywhere.

Panicked, you looked up again at his face to see he was utterly unphased. In fact, the corner of his mouth was turned up into his signature smirk, the kind you’d only seen when everyone went out to the bar together and he was trying to pick up someone to take home for the night.

“Like what you see?” You could feel the heat flood your face at his question, and you turned your head away from him. “Hey, honey. Just look at me.”

You refused, shaking your head, and you heard a shuffle from the other side of the room. Suddenly he was crouched in front of you, gently lifting your chin so your eyes met his. You thought it might be the end, your friendship was over and you would lose your favorite people in the world. But there was a reason you adored Bucky so much.

“You don’t have to be embarrassed,” he said, trying to comfort you. “We can still watch a movie and forget this ever happened, if you want.”

Taking a deep breath, you nodded and let him rearrange you back into bed. You were thankful that he had already put on a pair of boxer briefs, and then put on a pair of sweatpants before sliding into the other side of the bed.

Trying to steer things back into a normal direction, you asked him what movie he wanted to watch. He thought for only a moment before answering.

“I’m in a nineties mood, how about Basic Instinct?” You nodded in agreement, just going with whatever he wanted and not thinking much about it.

He still wrapped his arm around you like he usually did, and everything felt normal.

At least until the scene with Sharon Stone came on - one of the most provocative scenes in film history. As it played out, you felt heat spread through your core, and squeezed your thighs together in hopes that you could stave it off. 

Of course, Bucky immediately noticed something was off.

“Are you okay, honey?” What was with the nicknames tonight? They were an everyone once in a while thing usually, but tonight he was showering you with them. You were too busy trying to calm your swirling thoughts to notice the knowing tone in his voice. “Is something wrong with the movie?”

“N-no. Just forgot how graphic it was.”

“Is that an issue?” Now you heard that cocky tone, and you had no idea what it meant for you - or your relationship with Bucky.

“Of course not, I just -” You stopped, not entirely sure where you were headed with your sentence.

“It was just getting you wet, ain’t that right, honey?” His hand moved slowly down your body, giving you a chance to stop him if you wanted.

You thought about it, but you wanted to see where this would lead you. 

His hand slipped under the waistband of your shorts, and was met with your soaked core.

“Not wearing any panties? No wonder I could smell you.”

You whimpered at his words, at the thought of him knowing this whole time how affected you were. 

He slid his middle finger through your folds, collecting some of the wetness, and pulled his hands from your shorts. You wanted to protest, ask him why he was no longer touching you, then he stuck his finger in his mouth, tasting your juices.

“Sweet like honey. Just like I thought you’d be.” He didn’t give you a chance to answer before his fingers crept towards your waistband. This time, though, he didn’t move under them. He stopped, looking directly into your eyes. “Please tell me you want this as much as I do.”

“I want you,” you whispered, and that was all he needed.

Suddenly, Bucky was on top of you and his weight pushing you into the mattress was just as amazing as you had imagined it, late at night with your hand between your thighs.

Which is where Bucky’s were now, slipping down to pull your shorts off. He settled between your thighs, spreading them wide, and skated his hand back up your body, purposely avoiding the one place you needed him most, and instead slipped under your t-shirt to pull that off too.

You tugged at his sweatpants, wanting him to be as bare as you were, and he happily let you. Once his sweats were off his legs, you tried to reach your hand between them, but Bucky lightly slapped it away.

“Buck,” you whined, high and needy, and he looked down at you, eyes boring into your own. “C’mon.”

“Need to get you ready for me, honey.”

And the rough timber of his voice could have made you come right then. It did make you clench your thighs together again, trapping his hand there.

“I know you’re desperate for it. But you’re gonna thank me, I promise.” With that, he slipped one finger into you.

It slid in easily, more than wet enough for him, but even that one finger on that huge hand of his stretch you open just a bit. You threw your head back in pleasure, and when he added a second finger you turned your head to the side, moaning into the pillow.

He pulled his fingers out, slapping the inside of your thigh and leaving a streak of you there.

“I want to hear all those pretty sounds you make. Hearing ‘em through the wall ain’t enough anymore.”

You stared at him, wide eyed, and he just chuckled before sliding his fingers back into you - three this time. And even with just three fingers, it was the most stretched out you had ever been.

If you weren’t so needy for him, you might’ve been scared of just how big you knew he would be.

“Bucky, please. I’m ready for you.”

“If you say so, honey.”

He spread your legs even wider, somehow, and you finally got a close look at him. 

It was beautiful, tip red and leaking, and bigger than you could have ever imagined. This time, he let you reach out to touch him, and your hands barely wrapped around the girth of him - middle finger and thumb hardly grazing each other as you tried to slide your hand up and down.

His hand came down to replace yours, and he tapped his length against your stomach, showing you just how far he would fuck into you. Tip going just beyond your belly button, you clenched around nothing at the thought of it. 

You lifted your hips, trying to tell him with your body that you were more than ready.

Bucky pushed down your hips - one hand spanning nearly the entire width of your abdomen, and slid his cock through your folds to get it slicked up.

His tip teased at your entrance, and just before he slid into, he looked into your eyes.

“You’re sure?”

You nodded, grabbing the hand that was on your hip and intertwining your fingers, squeezing tight.

With that, he pushed into you, little by little, and your moans were so loud you were certain the entire apartment complex could hear you.

“That’s it, honey,” he said as he finally bottomed out. “Take all of my cock.”

You clenched around him, squeezing him even tighter, and when you came from just his first thrust, you knew every other man would be ruined for you.

Every thrust after was like a punch to the gut. You whined, trying not to pass out at the intense feelings he pulled from your body. He bent down, kissing you much too sweetly for the way he was fucking you, and you realized it was your first kiss of the night.

You always thought romance books were bullshit when they talked about sparks flying, but you knew now that they were right. Bucky’s kiss consumed you, setting fireworks off that made you dizzy; made you see stars and planets and the rest of the universe. You knew from the look on his face as he pulled away that he felt it too.

What really did you in, though, was when he pushed down on your stomach, right at the spot where his tip caressed you inside. The feeling pulled another orgasm from you, and the tightness of your walls around him pushed him over the edge too. He pulled out, coming in large streaks over your stomach and tits.

The warm feeling made you moan again, and he swallowed it down with a deep kiss.

“Are you okay?” he asked against your lips.

“I’m gonna have trouble walking tomorrow, that’s for sure.”

He let out a loud laugh, kissing your nose and rolling over to set you on top of him, paying no mind to the mess between your bodies.

“Gotta make sure I really do a number on you, then,” he said, pulling you down for another kiss.

kinktober taglist *:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧

@treatbuckywkisses @sgt-barnesveins @bucky-barmes @opheliastark @sweetascanbee @writing-for-marvel @christywantspizza @hi-sarahh @highlyintelligentblonde @jjbunny14 @buckysfavoritereader 

[unadulteratedsoulsweets]

A DC X DP IDEA #21

A PENNY FOR MY AND YOUR THOUGHTS #1…

The Justice League tries to understand the intricacies of the Ghost Zone and ghostly physics. Batman, in particular, attempts to apply logic to the supernatural world, leading to some hilarious debates with Danny who in return explains to Batman how his family’s and his version of physics breaks all logic.

…

You know this idea kind of came up to me, I’ve had my share of DC X DP crossovers of stories over the past year, and let me. Now that I’m talking out loud I found this hilarious cause tell you this opinion of mine was in the back of my head ever since

Logic is always present in the DC franchise whether it is their machines or some great evil weapons there is always some sort of explanation that uses science-defined words that can be translated into comic science. From magicians as well to magic shenanigans there is always some sort of logic behind each interaction. Batman uses full time to counter-act everything, and I mean everything in case they turn to the other side.

And there is DP…

I mean in all logic there is an absolute quack. The Fenton’s way a lipstick can be turned into some sort of laser gun against a ghost, okay two questions first how did they manage to cram the function to fire away a small yet precise blast towards the intended direction and second how did they even modify an everyday looking lipstick into that. The Fenton creep stick is just a baseball bat with a green sticker yet for some reason works on ghosts. Let’s not forget that the two eccentric ghost hunters have designed and built many of the ghost-hunting devices, often using household objects or repurposed machinery. I mean I saw the YouTube vids about how to build a bomb or even how to make your weapon made out of everyday machinery yet there are still machine parts that cannot be found in everyday appliances to ensure a functioning and safe weapon.

 Let’s not also forget about the ectoplasm, the show repeatedly stated that ectoplasm is radioactive, sure there are the mutated dinners as well as some other stuff but the fact that it did’nt affect the other two children of the Fenton’s due to prolonged exposure of ectoplasm beneath there own home amazes me. I mean look at our everyday powerplant there is a huge distance between a power plant to civilization to avoid future problems, heck we are exposed to light radiation everyday. Doctors advise us to stay away from radiation or lessen our time spent with everyday radiation. Sure there are some fan fics about how the entire population of Amity Park is somehow contaminated and gained some sort of ghost ability like extra strength and glowing eyes but majority of them, Danny was the only one seeing that he had an entire dimension fall on him when he opened the portal.

Now mash the two fandoms together and you’ll see my mental image of Batman and Phantom debating the logic behind DP logics despite having the same two fandoms living in the same universe, while the rest of the League watches in great focus as they have never seen Batman so worked up before as well on how their new League member create such highly functioning weapons.

I mean if I saw someone create a staff turned into some sort of double-bladed lightsaber from household items, I would also question my sanity as well as my knowledge.

…

Just a thought of mine….don't mind me 😕😕😕

[tripolishigh]

Welcome to Tripolis high.

We Welcome you to Tripolis High, a high school made for everyone.

We encourage students to be themselves and to be unique in their own way. We have been inspiring students since 14th of May 1940.

Our staff made this account to keep an eye on students as well as give important announcements! We do have a Snow ball on the way!

We also welcome back our old students! We hope your new school year starts out better than the last and you spend yet again a wonderful time this year. We know exams will be stressful for the oldest ones but do not panic and study well, a lot of you have great potential.

Anyways let’s get to the fun part!

If anyone here wants to join an after school activity, please do! We have quite a lot to offer!

Gardening club

Acting club

Music club

Cooking club

Art club

Science and tech club

Football/basketball/soccer clubs

Film club

History club

Literature club

Dance club

Journalism club

Robotics club

Cheer leading

Student council

Student council is up and running, if anyone wants to apply for a position, please contact us and make a plan for what you think this school needs.

We also are opening president debate!! 2 students will fight for the role of Student council president. A poll will be set and cast the best president for their school.

Thank you all for reading and staying.

-Tripolis High Staff.

OOC:

Finally an account for the school!

This is made by me @mikeydraws and @isityuno

This is a Highschool DC AU, this is mostly about young DC heroes like Young Justice! This is a big project me and Yuno finally brought to daylight, thanks to the encouragement from a few friends of ours. They are also part of this au as characters.

The full list of people in this is all on the pinned account of @jaimereyesbug Which is mine! I run it :)

Thank you to all the people who already joined this is an absolute delight to be apart of, if this AU gains a bigger audience and more people want to join we will open our very own Discord server. But before that I wanna apply some rules

OCs and self-inserts

- this is absolutely fine, don’t feel bad about adding an oc or a self-insert, we accept those and you won’t be judged.

Canon characters

- if a canon character is already taken then don’t bother making your own version of it, we won’t accept them. The reason being is that it will be so confusing for us and keeping track of it, it’s better if we keep it simple.

Older characters

- we accept older characters, like Bruce, dick or Wally. However they won’t be too much focused on as young DC characters are the main voice of the Roleplay, I won’t allow Bruce as a teenager so don’t even try, this will make it weird since we already have a Damian.

NSFW and inappropriate things

- you will get instantly reported and blocked, this is a high school au, most characters are under the age of 18-19.

This is all! Please contact me ( @mikeydraws ) or this blog if you are interested in joining!!

Ciao!

[goth-pod]

Goth-Pod Ep 5: Gotham Troubles

Welcome Back! Listening to you send ins, Juda Boone talks about things by Gothamites, for Gothamites!

[goth-pod is a fictional in-universe podcast based on the DC comics universe. Juda Boone is an original fictional character, not based on any real person or known comic book character.]

Transcript under the cut

Hello everyone and welcome to Goth-Pods special trials and troubles episode! I’m an indie theater’s take on the ghost of Christmas Present- and your host, Juda Boone. 

We're looking at your submitted trademark Gotham problems. So without my usual ramblings, lets get to business

—

For our first submission username Trekkle brought up a good debate: Subway vs Bus: The Subway is safer, since buses can get hit during rogue attacks, but if you're stuck underground there's a chance of a killer croc attack and also the birds ride the roof. 

Fantastic points, Trekkle! Thank you for writing in. I don't know exactly what you mean by the birds riding the roof, though. Do you mean Robin? Because I have been on the tram while a fight was happening between Robin and The Penguin on top. Of course, I missed most of it because I had my headphones in. Noise cancellation has its pros and cons in Gotham.  

There’s no set answer on this one, I don’t think. You kind of have to pay attention to what Rouges are active the way you pay attention to the weather. Cloudy with a 70% chance of a Riddler scheme? Maybe take the Buses, since they’re not connected to a maze-like system like  the subways are. But maybe it's sweater weather with a possible freeze-over because Victor Fries broke out two nights ago and is due for a showy return. Then an underground bunker with cushy seats doesn’t sound too bad.

—

From Clexx we have: I'm new to Gotham (full ride scholarship, thank you Mr. Wayne): Why does everyone hate Superman? I tried to get answers from a friend and they called Superman a Homewrecker. Is there an infidelity scandal around Superman I don’t know about??

Oh wow. First of all, congratulations on the scholarship! I'm assuming you're attending Gotham U? Just be sure you get a proper Rogue-proof gas mask. Yes there is a difference. It’ll probably be covered in your Orientation though, so onto the main question. 

To the Homewrecker comment.. oh I didn’t think it’d come to this. Okay, there's this thing in Gotham. Clexx, have you ever heard of Bruceman? Ask your friend about it, they’ll probably love to explain more. Basically it is a Real-Person based Ship on Gotham’s two protectors, Bruce Wayne and Batman. One watching over the day, the other the night. 

This is another Topic that might take all episodes to explain, so to keep it short: People see Superman and Batman’s relationship- professional, platonic, romantic, or however they define it- as a threat to Bruceman, the number one Gotham Ship. Godspeed if you get between our beloved prettyboy himbo and our odd night-stalking cryptid. 

—

From Allison: My cousin is visiting and I want to show them why I stay in Gotham. Where can we go for 1) a low level rogue attack (for Bat sighting), and 2) where can we go for a Wayne sighting. (They think Dick Grayson is hotter then Brucie [eye-rolling emoji])

For the first one, I think any part of our public transport system will do, as we discussed before. The tricky part is knowing when it’s going to be low-level or if your cousin will be joining you in a shelter-in-place lockdown.

For a Wayne sighting, unfortunately it’s harder to say these days. Bruce Wayne has made several statements on how he’s spending less time at the company in order to focus on bonding with his new son, Jason. I hate to disappoint, but right now might not be the time for celebrity sight-seeing. Maybe take a day trip to Bludhaven! Your cousin might enjoy the chance to convince you instead. 

Thank you all for writing in and for joining us on this special episode! If we didn’t get to your submission, head over to our socials to see if we replied there. I’m Juda, you’re listening to Goth-Pod

Until then, Newcomers, visiting cousins, locals on the bus, Stay safe, Gotham.

[dc-fanfic-sideblog]

So… I don’t really have an update on the costume designer reader, just some more little facts because I can’t help myself. None of this is in any sort of order. I’m treating Reader like a character for now in this post, i will eventually start to use “you” in place of “she/her/reader”

I’ve never really written x reader fanfiction before, so I’ll try my best to make it as inclusive as I can (while being a little self indulgent as a treat)

If y’all have any questions or maybe even requests then please send in an ask!! I want to practice writing!

Various DC characters x fem!reader

Reader is going to Gotham University on a full ride scholarship, but she doesn’t live in the dorms (if the Uni even has dorms because i can’t find any information on it) she has a shitty little apartment, basically a studio apartment because they’re a collage kid and can’t afford shit.

Every so often some small time villain will find their way onto the roof of their apartment building and reader is just chilling outside and she’ll ask “yo… do you have a costume yet?” And she may or may not design something for them or give criticism on whatever they’re already wearing

She asks Superman why he wears tights lol

SPEAKING OF SUPERMAN, i believe when reader goes off to Metropolis, Lois is all over her in like a mother hen kinda way. Giving tips on how to interview people, about asking good questions and keeping their interest

Clark is also there but after reader meets Superman she catches on almost immediately. Because hello, he’s just wearing glasses and fixing up his hair differently, what are the drinking in Metropolis?? (I’m heavily basing this Superman after the 1978 one because he’s so silly and pretty)

Batman/Bruce Wayne definitely has his dad instincts kicking in as soon as he hears about some college kid wanting to talk to VILLAINS that are in ARKHAM going to Gotham University on HIS FULL TERM SCHOLARSHIP.

Damien meets reader with Batman supervising him to make sure he’s not overly rude to reader, and Damien (as Robin) starts asking stuff like “why are you interviewing villains? Frankly that’s stupid and dangerous” and Bruce just scruffs him like a kitten and says goodbye lol

At some point I think Bruce meets reader as Bruce Wayne after one of her classes to be like “hey I’m the one giving you money so you can go to college. I heard about you talking to evil people and while I think that’s dangerous here’s a special ID to get into Arkham so you don’t get kidnapped by random villains on the street. Talk to these people while being supervised please”

His kids make the joke that he’s ready to adopt another kid, but he denies them just to let them freak out (he not gonna but he thinks it’s funny to mess with them like that every once in a while)

Jason follows reader as Red Hood when they’re going to Arkham for the first few months. The visits aren’t often because of classes and work, but they’re at least once a week.

Reader/you work as a work study for the theatre department, meaning reader has access to a lot of different materials and good strong sewing machines. There’s a pretty good sewing machine in the apartment but the university ones can handle thicker materials and can run for a lot longer

I’m kinda debating on including Morpheus/the Sandman just for funsies because I want to write him interacting with a slightly unhinged college student

Anyways that’s it for now, sorry I abandoned this account for so long lol but I’m back! (We’ll see how long that’ll last)

[northoftheroad]

I know I just gave you an ask and you must be super busy, but what do you think abt Dickory vs Dickbabs?? Personally, I think Dickory is way better but in Tom Taylor’s run and the current runs, Dickbabs is the main ship. Anyways, I just wanted your opinion on it :D

Also thoughts on Tom Taylor’s run? I thought about it and I kinda have mixed feelings. On one hand, it’s great for fanservice and has some super cute and funny moments. On the other hand, the characters and their relationships are kinda one dimensional. Thoughts?? Take your time and thanks if you answer! <3

Hi, As I've said before (and I'm going to quote myself from older posts here quite a lot, if you happen to come across them 😉 ), I'm fine with both pairings as long as it's well written. I guess a lot of fans lean towards preferring what they grew up with and such like. I'm old enough to have started reading Batman when the idea of another Robin than Dick Grayson was ludicrous, and read the NTT in my slightly older teens. So I definitely have a nostalgic feeling for Dick/Kory.

I think they worked well because they were so different; they each learned from the other and grew as people. Being with Kory helped Dick become more emotionally open after some ten years of growing up with Bruce and Alfred. In NTT # 26, he talks about how he is too introspective and that Batman taught him to be guided by his head, not his heart. And in turn, I'd say Kory learned not always to be ruled by her emotions, and Dick helped to ground her on Earth. They had their fair share of problems, one obstacle was their different approach to relationships and sex. While Starfire is fine with being married to another guy, for reasons of state, but live with Dick, it takes Dick quite some time to come to terms with that he loves Kory enough to get over that. Dick and Kory were one of the most stable and loving couples in DC for over ten years. Now, in superhero comics, writers and/or editoral make the rules. There were plans to let them get married, but as far as I remember a change of editorial led to that being scrapped. We got Dick being raped by Mirage instead, and eventually, the couple split up. Disregarding that, I think you could very well see them growing apart. They were young when they started dating. I guess they were a couple for two-three years? At that age, it's not unreasonable to think they developed in ways that made them decide to go their separate ways.

If Dick and Kory were good because they were poles apart, I'd say Dick and Barbara are more alike. They have both worked with Batman; they are originally street-level detectives and athletes; they are used to work in similar ways. I could see them as a slightly more mature couple than Dick and Kory, being more in sync and relaxed with each other because they have similar backgrounds and shared experiences. (Which, of course, could make them a more boring couple in fiction…) I'm not a fan of the retcon that they've been friends since school, but they did work occasionally together as youngsters, so it can still make sense to write them as really good friends, imo. I honestly think Dick and Kory have been written as a good couple more than Dick and Barbara. Maybe things had been different if Devin Grayson had got the chance to tie up her long arc with Dick in Nightwing vol 2. Not that I think her run was without its problems, but it would presumably have been better if she had got the opportunity to finish what she started. The ending (or rather the absence of a decent ending) of her run, and the fact that the first Nightwing stories after Infinite Crisis were downright cringeworthy, has soured my impression of her writing of Dick/Babs. So I guess editorial decisions have ruined both Dick's most important relationships…?

I don't know if you're new to the debate about Dick/Kory vs. Dick/Barbara? Because it's sometimes a heated discussion, with people claiming he doesn't deserve either of them, he mistreated one or the other etc.

(Here's what Barbara herself had to say about Dick, by the way. In Birds of Prey # 71. By Gail Simone, art Ron Adrian and Rob Lea.)

I can definitely work myself up too much about fictional characters myself, but there are a few things I try to keep in mind… Fictional characters have no agency. Creators and editoral use them to tell stories (and sell stuff…). Don't get angry at fictional characters or, even worse, real people who love them. Also, reading comics is a lot about filling in the blanks between panels, and different readers can put a book down with very different pictures of what has happened. You can absolutely find examples where Dick has been written as behaving badly against both of them. Sometimes, it's a reasonable part of the writer's long game, sometimes it actually is bad and out-of-character writing. (And if you look, you can find examples where the women have been written as behaving badly against Dick too.)

Honestly, the most important thing for me when it comes to Dick and relationships is that he takes them very seriously indeed. Dick has not had a lot of one-night stands and is on record as saying he's not comfortable with casual sex. When he had one with Helena/Huntress, he wanted to talk about starting a relationship just because of that. When he (fake) married a girl to try to expose her as a murderer, he still avoided to sleep with her, and then he offered to stay with her when the case was closed, because he felt bad for deceiving her. Outside the blasted annual, I don't know of any time he was written as (knowingly) having sex with someone while he's in a relationship with another. Girls tend to break up with him, not the other way around. I'm sure other people have different ideas, and it can vary between writers and eras, but I think you can read Dick as someone who likes to be in a relationship, to be intimate with someone – but who's not into casual sex.

When it comes to Tom Taylor's run, I pretty much agree with you. I don't hate it, as some people seem to do, but I think the art has been the best part. It's mostly been pretty meh, TT has at several times spoken about how Nightwing is an A-lister among DC superheroes, but I don't think he shows it. And here and there he produces some really nice panels/pages (sometimes it's up to debate whether the characters are out of character or not). We're heading towards the end of his and Bruno Redondon's run and they've hinted he's going to stop being Nightwing. As if we need a third period of Dick not being Nightwing in ten years… 🙄 The best writer of Nightwing vol 4 was Sam Humphries, in my opinion. Unfortunately, it was very short.

Ok, this post has definitely gone on long enough... but if you want to go deeper into the rabbit hole, here are some earlier posts.

[bekolxeram]

I always roll my eyes when I see people be like "well tommy HAD to have been flying the plane" cause like. all you were doing is talking about reality vs the show like why r people so pressed about that. like I'm an emt and I do that all the time cause I think it's fun to talk about the realities of ems care vs tvs depiction of it. I'm not saying the show is bad or whatever i just like talking about emergency medicine and how tv gets it wrong alot. anyways I appreciate u talking all about aviation its really interesting and I hope ur not too disheartened by people being weird cause I love reading ur posts about it <3

Hypothetically, the show decides to film an emergency where a huge chunk of an airliner's roof tears off. The whole plane is basically hanging by a thread, one engine fails and the landing gears are not secure, but somehow the pilots manage to make a successful landing. What is it? An open top plane instead of a bus? The writers are running out of ideas.

Or what if it's an Airbus with a faulty auto-throttle that needs constant monitoring by the flight crew. When the captain is holding onto the throttle, he just happens to have a heart attack and lets go, now the plane is banking to one side because the malfunctioning auto-throttle has rolled back one of the engine. Oh wait, the first officer is more used to flying Soviet planes and their altitude indicator has a completely opposite mechanism comparing to the western one. (Western ADI shows you the horizon, Soviet ADI turns with the plane) So the first officer turns the wrong way and crashes the plane. Wow, really? A Final Destination parody?

Or maybe a FedEx employee tries to commit insurance fraud by hijacking a cargo plane, killing the pilots with a hammer and a spear gun then crashing it to hide the evidence. The first officer, suffering from brain injury due to the attack, decides to fly the DC-10 like a fighter jet to help his equally injured colleagues subdue the hijacker. He first makes a sudden steep climb, then a sharp roll to the left until the plane is flying upside down, and finally dives so quickly it's approaching the speed of sound. Somehow they manages to land safely and the attacker is arrested. Did the writers get the wrong memo and wrote an action movie instead of a plane emergency?

Except I didn't write all these to mock the show, these are actually Aloha Airlines Flight 243, TAROM Flight 371 and FedEx Flight 705. (The FedEx DC-10 was later repaired and it flew until December 31, 2022. Amazing.) Sometimes real life is stranger than fiction, and it is fun to talk about, I think you understand exactly what I mean. We all get to learn what works, what doesn't, and what is surprisingly realer than we thought.

Even the shark on freeway call people keep bringing up to prove how crazy, how unrealistic the show is, well, there is a place called Florida, and everything that can happen has happened there.

This shark didn't bite anyone though, it didn't survive the crash. :/

I actually started writing about real life pilot training and how hard it is to fly a helicopter because of the discourse going around back then claiming Tommy didn't deserve a medal because he did nothing. "It's not real, it's a TV show where anyone can do anything, anyone can drive that helicopter lol." I wrote about the difference between helicopter pilots and fixed wing pilots because I found the contrast between them interesting, and Tommy's characterization is aptly appropriate for someone who flies helicopters professionally. I even worked that into a little headcanon of my own, about Tommy dating an airplane pilot in the past and the difference in lifestyle and attitude that broke them up. I've never forced anyone to accept my explanation as absolute fact, it's always about my interpretation of Tommy's character. People can ignore top/bottom debates, D/s discourse, KINKTOMATO, right? Yet I say Tommy doesn't fly a 4 engine air tanker (but he's still super badass as a helicopter pilot, I wrote a 3 part series just about how dangerous and difficult the cruise ship rescue mission in 7x03 is), people just feel the need to tell me I'm wrong, to express their displease of me obsessing over tiny details, or simply "shut the hell up". Adding a disclaimer and creating a whole tag for people to block wasn't even enough. It's just... discouraging.

I don't know, I just hope the show never goes full Fire Country (2022-). It misrepresents real life firefighting so bad that CAL FIRE chief publicly condemned the show. The president of CAL FIRE's union even made an unsuccessful attempt to sue the show and later released a statement basically saying "we can't force them to do anything, but know that we have nothing to do with the show." I just think real firefighters spending the whole afternoon talking to the news about how dangerous and impractical it is to dump bunch of water over a crowded urban area, then immediately after that 911!LAFD, a fire department for the city not the surrounding woodland, showed up with the exact air tanker Trump suggested, that would be kinda... goofy. I've seen a retired firefighter praising the later seasons of 9-1-1 for striking a good balance between dramatization and authenticity. I hope they keep it that way.

[harlivycentral]

I wanna talk about Harley & Ivy's dynamic in Conner and Palmiotti's iconic Harley Quinn run, why I love it so much, and why I'm hopeful that the new Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn series will pick up and expand on that legacy. Let's start with the two times we see Harley & Ivy kiss in the Conner and Palmiotti run.

I believe these are the only two times we see Harley & Ivy really kiss each other in Conner & Palmiotti's run (aside from the infamously edited kiss when Ivy throws Harley a surprise party). But there's something incredibly sweet to me in the fact that there's a recurrent theme of Ivy & Harley kissing each other to save each other.

The first kiss is from Harley Quinn Annual (2013) #1, where Ivy has been brainwashed, and Harley's first instinct to bring Ivy back to herself is to kiss her. The next kiss is from Harley Quinn (2016) #29, when Harley's been dosed by Scarecrow's fear gas during a mayoral debate (remember when Harley was running for mayor?), and Ivy leaps onstage to give Harley the antidote via a kiss. When either of them have been overcome by mind-altering substances, most of their selves and their autonomy stripped away, the other knows that a reminder of their relationship and what they mean to each other will bring them. They each instinctually recognize that their relationship with one another is a foundational and safe one that reminds each of them of who their authentic self is.

These kisses just encapsulates what I love about Conner and Palmiotti's run, which is that, even when DC wouldn't ever quite let them make Harlivy canon, they still managed to write Harley & Ivy as clearly such a grounding, safe force in one another's lives. Ivy isn't in every issue of their run, but she tends to turn up whenever Harley is going through something major. Every other character just seems to go along with Harley's hijinks, viewing her as indestructible (probably because Harley tends to think of and present herself that way). But then Ivy shows up, asking Harley when the last time she ate was, taking her out to dinner and a movie and checking in that she's not overtaxing herself, like we see in Harley Quinn (2016) #16 (below) or making sure she's emotionally prepared to face Joker when she has to break into Arkham in Harley Quinn (2013) #25.

But the thing is, it's not just Ivy taking care of Harley that we see in the series. Harley also takes care of Ivy, cajoling her into much-needed vacations like the spa day we see them take in Harley Quinn (2016) #1, which Harley puts together as a thank you for Ivy helping her out at the end of her New 52 series.

It's clear that they appreciate and trust one another, and each of them is always trying to make sure the other is getting the rest and care they need. The few times we see Harley really and truly relax in this series, it's usually with Ivy. It's no coincidence that Conner and Palmiotti chose to end their last Harley comic with Ivy & Harley finally together on a much-talked about and much-needed vacation.

They wanted to leave the character on a good note, and what better way than with Ivy? Harley and Ivy's relationship was the heart of the run, and Conner and Palmiotti's ending solidifies that. (Then there is the tagged on Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey series, which gives Harley another ending that I love so much it will have to get its whole own post another time. Needless to say, Ivy is also a crucial part of that ending as well.)

However, while Conner made it clear on twitter (and in the writing) that she and Palmiotti were intentionally writing Harley and Ivy's relationship as romantic, this was before DC would allow it to be canon (although the subtext is very much there). Which may explain, at least in part, why Harley asks Ivy to move in with her multiple times throughout the series, only for Ivy to rebuff her every time.

Which, of course, brings us to the new ongoing Poison Ivy series and the soon-to-be-released first issue of Howard's Harley Quinn run. In the new Poison Ivy series, we're once again seeing Harley asking Ivy, if not to move in with her, to come back to Gotham to be with her. In a reversal, we now have Ivy living in Seattle while Harley is in Gotham (whereas Conner and Palmiotti had Harley living in Brooklyn with Ivy back in Gotham).

It's the same conflict we've had before--Ivy not sure she can move in with Harley--but we get the the argument in a new context, one in which Ivy refers to Harley as the woman she loves, where she kisses Harley with no pretext needed and talks about how much she loves spending time in bed with her, where the relationship is clearly romantic and the conflict thus no longer feels manufactured to keep them apart. I think Conner and Palmiotti did a wonderful job writing Harley and Ivy's dynamic, given the editorial constraints they were working with, and the return to the conflict in the recent Poison Ivy series doesn't read to me as stasis but as an opportunity to more fully explore and resolve the emotions underlying Ivy's reluctance to move in with Harley in the past.

In both Conner and Palmiotti's run and Poison Ivy's current solo series, Harley is a respite for Ivy, and that scares her. Ivy's afraid to lean too fully into the safety and comfort of her relationship with Harley because she's worried what it will mean for her work, for her quest to protect and avenge the environment. Now that current creative teams are able to fully acknowledge the depth of feeling between Harley and Ivy, and no longer have to keep their relationship boxed in as not-quite-romantic, I'm hopeful that this re-exploration of Ivy's feelings about moving in with Harley will get a different resolution than they did in Conner and Palmiotti's run.

Conner and Palmiotti were able to write Harley and Ivy as a very healthy couple, where they both took care of and supported each other. When we saw them navigating fears about how their relationship might affect their work, it never broke them apart. Harley and Ivy are now canonically both gay and survivors of abuse at the hands of men. It's incredibly special to get to see gay women who are survivors of abuse in a healthy relationship with one another, one where they're equals who support each other. Conner and Palmiotti laid the groundwork of this dynamic, and I'm hopeful that we'll see it meaningfully expanded on in the near future.

[grayson10yearslater]

Welcome to our first monthly mod meta! ✒️ In addition to the fanworks challenges and opinion pieces, we have a meta post planned for every month of this 10 year anniversary!

How Dick Became a Super Spy

As so often in Dick Grayson’s history, his life came into jeopardy and the direction of his comic was changed due to a big crossover with equally big creative differences. Nightwing was pulled out of Higgins’ hands without much preamble. While Geoff Johns and Dan Didio were fighting about Nightwing’s death, two seperate writers were hired to take Dick Grayson’s story into a different direction. Both the in-fighting and the hiring fumble delayed the final issue of Forever Evil and Nightwing (2011). From the battleground within the pages of the comics and editorial, Grayson (2014) rose as a much debated but impactful Dick Grayson story.

The Death of Nightwing

How Dick became a super spy within the text is a story well-known if only in its outline. The Crime Syndicate arrived from Earth-3 in the DC main universe to wreak havoc, and Dick was the big casualty. Saved and then sacrificed, Bruce sends Dick onto an undercover mission, but by the time Tom King and Tim Seeley wrote Nightwing (2011) #30, Dick’s direction was already clear – it is the beginning of Grayson (2014) much more than the end of Nightwing (2011). To observe how Dick became a super spy in-universe, let us have a look at Forever Evil.

Having just dealt with Zaszak in Nightwing (2011) #29 - #30, Dick returns to Gotham to drop him off at Arkham in time to see that Superwoman means to free the inmates. Dick is taken captive by Owlman and her before he can stop them. As the Crime Syndicate rallies the villains of the main universe among them, they reveal a captive Nightwing’s identity and vow to destroy and kill everything and everyone he holds dear (Forever Evil #1).

Watching the reveal, Tim aims to confront the Crime Syndicate with the Teen Titans not only because he believes Dick is still alive but also so he can protect their remaining hidden identities. . Meanwhile Owlman sets his mind on keeping Dick, the counterpart to his Talon, alive (#3).  

Bruce survived the attack on the Justice League Watchtower and has allied with Catwoman, who he reluctantly brings down into the cave, where she points out that the time in which Dick first dropped onto the scene, was when she thought he could actually be happy as Batman. Bruce has taken Dick’s identity reveal badly, going as far as to blame himself for destroying Dick’s life by allowing him to be Robin and pushing him away, so that he had to become a solo hero. Owlman meanwhile tries to get Dick onto his side by forcing him into losing hope (#4).

Batman, Catwoman, and Luthor’s villain team eventually work together to reach Happy Harbor, where the Crime Syndicate has taken up camp in the fallen watchtower. Alfred of Earth-3 tells Owlman to return to the watchtower, while Grid was supposed to protect Nightwing, the Cyborg counterpart seems to be doing none of that. Grid, as any corrupt AI, willfully misinterprets keeping Nightwing safe to keeping him behind lock and key within the murder machine, partially because Ultraman believes Owlman wants Nightwing to team-up against him. As the heroes infiltrate the watchtower, Owlman reiterates to Alfred to keep Nightwing safe at all costs. Alfred goes against Owlman, probably because he also didn’t think much of Earth-3 Richard, and loses his life. 

Bruce and Lex find Dick trapped in the murder machine, which truly is a nuclear bomb ready to go off in five minutes except if Dick Grayson dies. The bomb has been linked to his heart. Bruce promises Dick they will only escape together while Dick pleads with him to leave. Lex makes the “executive decision” to kill Dick and revive him, which he is almost unable to do when Bruce attacks him. Obviously, Lex can’t just explain beforehand. (#6) 

Dick gets his life-saving shot at the last second, and Lex is pushed away so Bruce can take Dick into his arms, relieved to have him back. As they try to get the situation back under control, Owlman follows them, insisting that now that Alfred is gone too, Dick is all he has. He is not giving up on them being a team. He wants the heroes to win, and they do.

Still believed dead by a majority of the world, Bruce tells Dick he wants to take advantage of the fact. Dick is supposed to go on a secret mission. At the time, Owlman is haunting Gotham in search for Dick (#7) and Batgirl is mourning him (Batgirl #30).

Creative Boogaloo

Didio had tried to kill Dick Grayson before and Forever Evil seemed to offer him a new opportunity. He didn’t expect writer Geoff Johns to quarrel with him about the fate of the character. Their discussion about Dick’s death took so long that both Forever Evil #7 and Nightwing #30 were ultimately delayed. In fact, it was Batgirl #30, which ultimately spoiled some kind of death was awaiting Dick. 

One might think this was the only creative difference at that time, but the journey to Grayson (2014) took a lot longer than some might think. Initially there were rumours, which got confirmed to be true years later, that Tynion was supposed to write Dick Grayson’s new comic. 

A few pages of James Tynion IV & Meghan Hetrick’s NW #30 appeared around the time Grayson was published [Bleeding Cool], but that Tynion & Mikel Janín had already decided on a setting and a new costume for Dick was revealed only in 2021 [Gamesradar]. 

Before the announcement of Grayson, all people had to go off of was the Batman: Eternal Thanksgiving Teaser, released as far back as November 2013, half a year before Grayson hit the market. It featured a blond wigged Dick and led to quite succinct speculation. It is also why Dick sports a blond wig in Grayson #1. 

Other rumours involved an Outlaw Justice comic written by Tynion and the rise of Harper Row as Nightwing – though given how Bruce reacted to Dick’s death and how Snyder portrayed Bruce and Dick’s dynamic, she would have had a difficult time living up to that legacy [CBR Community Tynion].

While these rumours floated about, DC Editorial took the miscommunication that plagued the New 52 further by hiring two writers separately: Tim Seeley and Tom King. Seeley had previously only written a one-shot for DC but his Hack/Slash series was quite popular, while King had no comic book under his belt. Allegedly, Didio hired him because he enjoyed his debut novel so much. (Or maybe DD has something to hide from the CSI, we’ll never know.) 

Strange as it might seem today, Mikel Janín was the creative with the most power on Grayson (2014). He had been with DC the longest during that time. In fact, Janín’s debut comic at DC was Flashpoint: Deadman and the Flying Graysons in 2011. 

Even so, Janín might have been too busy with Tynion’s idea to design the first appearances of characters already featured in Nightwing #30. Helena Bertinelli’s first appearance, in which her costume includes a skull mask, was designed by Tim Seeley and he even got the ball rolling in regard to Dick’s new spy costume. (Tim Seeley Art Blog) 

Janín later created a couple of different Agent 37 concept arts before they decided on the one everyone knows today. [The middle one was only revealed years later.]

In an interview shortly before the release of Nightwing #30, Tom King spoke about what readers could expect. He revealed that Helena Bertinelli would make her comeback in Nightwing #30 and describes her as the "Batman of superspies." The first arc of Grayson would focus on her relationship with Dick. Ultimately, they decided to fashion her appearance and clothing more in accordance with the character's history as Huntress and not go with Seeley’s design. They not only discussed Dick’s new clothes but also his hair length in great detail. King explains that the sparring scene in Nightwing #30 was written to be "extremely difficult" for both Dick and Batman. Grayson would emphasise travel and exotic locations. Each issue would be set in a different locale, however, Dick's "heart" would remain focused on Gotham.

Furthermore, King reveals that Seeley and he had not met before, they did all their work by phone and internet. An interesting tidbit for all who like to know in which continuity context a writer sets their work: King approaches Dick’s experiences pre-Flashpoint as if all of it still happened. When Barry rebooted the universe those experiences were folded into the fabric of the New 52. While King and Seeley weren’t allowed to directly contradict the five-year-timeline, they set out and did play fast and loose with it. King's primary inspirations for Dick's character are New Teen Titans and Dark Victory.  [Comic Geek Speak PodcastComic Talk with Tom King] 

A few story elements King mentions will be familiar because the first part of Grayson remained blissfully uninterrupted by editorial, but what do you think of the road to Grayson?

Check out our Intro Post and come celebrate with us 10 years of espionage, sabotage, and partners who are sour, dark, and perfect!

[soleminisanction]

@mzminola I saw your tags on this post:

#you all have so many names #is this because of DC eating Fawcett, or a tiff with Marvel Comics, or several reasons??? #everything I learn about the Shazam Fawcett City fam makes me more interested

And immediately got excited because I happen to know this story and I think it's fun. It's one of the more interesting nuances of comics industry skullduggery out there.

See, Captain Marvel was the most popular superhero of the 1940s, at least based on raw comic book sales; he even outsold Superman, and he was the first comic book superhero to get adapted into a film serial. And National Comics, the company that would eventually become DC, hated that, so they sued for copyright infringement on the grounds that the Cap was a blatant Superman rip-off, and they eventually won, forcing Fawcett to stop publishing Captain Marvel and his family in 1953.

Then in the 60s, when Marvel Comics came along, somebody there eventually noticed that the trademark to the name "Captain Marvel" was up for grabs, so they jumped on that with their Captain in 1967. Between Mar-Vell and his family, Monica Rambaeu, Noh-Varr and Carol Danvers, Marvel's never let that trademark slip out of their grasp in the decades since.

So when DC acquired the rights to use the original Captain Marvel and his crew, first through a license with Fawcett in 1972 and then essentially absorbing the smaller company entirety in 1992, they found themselves in the awkward legal position where they couldn't publish Cap's books under the name "Captain Marvel." They could call him that in the book, because they owned the rights to the character, but they couldn't use his name as the trademark for the series, or in any of their advertisements, and when they tried to edge around it by calling him, "Shazam! The Original Captain Marvel" they got a cease and desist.

Of course people who weren't familiar with any of this drama found it confusing that this was one of the only books in the line-up that wasn't named for its hero. So DC spent a long time through the 90s and early 00s going through different names for Captain Marvel (and to a lesser extent Mary and Junior) trying to find a name that would let people know that this was the same Very Popular Character as in the old days without tripping into Marvel's trademark lawyers.

---

Meanwhile!! Back in the 50s, over the the U.K., the small press that had been importing the Captain Marvel comics decided that, when their supply was suddenly cut off by the lawsuit, they'd recruit a local artist to just help them keep going by changing the name to a thinly veiled expy called Marvelman.

Marvelman was then revived in the 80s by Alan Moore as Miracleman, which was basically his first jaunt into the metatextual explorations of superhero comics that he'd become famous for. When he left that run it was taken over by Neil Gaiman, through whom a debate over the rights to Miracleman would eventually become central to a protracted lawsuit with Todd McFarlane over work Gaiman did on the Spawn comics.

You could probably write a pretty compelling history of the superhero comics industry just by following the trademark and copyright drama of Captain Marvel. I'm a little surprised somebody hasn't done it already tbh.

[teecupangel]

saw the Joker!Desmond idea & the tags about the LoA & a bunny emerged! so here u go for the bunnyvault: Desmond reborn as Talia Al Ghul's twin brother. it would be a little nightmarish with the Leader of Assassin Group Father (with extra crazy) in a death cult, but there would be room for funny bits. like Desmond just Judging Talia's taste in men. *gestures to ALL of Bruce's everything* WHY? R U into this man? doting on/teaching damian the Creed in secret. accidentally leading a schism in the League. * over 200 yrs & what have we actually accomplished "Dad"?* bullying his sorta brother in law. idk

The ask that inspired this one about Joker!Desmond AU which had these tags:

#ngl #the idea of desmond being the leader of the league of assassins #would be a fun idea #especially if we set this before cassandra runs away #so we can have a mentally unstable desmond #try to raise a socially awkward cassandra #it would be both funny #and also a bit tragic

So… Desmond went from one fucked up family to another fucked up family. XD

I think it could be debated on who is a worse father, Ra’s Al Ghul or William Miles lol.

Anyway, he would have a strained relationship with his family, not just with his new father. For one, he and Talia would have grown up being pitted against one another and their competition would be ‘nourished’ by their own father. Talia would probably respect him and care for him as her twin brother but loathe him as her rival because he was a prodigy in the eyes of the League.

Desmond, for his part, would try to be the nice brother (relying heavily on Ezio’s Bleed for help) but Talia can be quite a handful when she feels like it so there’s a bit of annoyed older brother vibe to how Desmond deal with Talia sometimes.

Which would be funnier if Desmond is actually the younger of the twins XD

Also, let’s not forget that the Lazarus Pit is used to ensure that they do get to live that long so… Desmond’s mental state post-Bleeding Effect? It definitely takes a hit every time he uses the Lazarus Pit.

The first time it happens, Desmond didn’t know the extent of the Lazarus’ Pit powers. He had grown up in an isolated ‘community’ (again) and in an unknown world (let’s say that Desmond’s world doesn’t have DC in it) so he just figured it’s one of those long honored tradition.

Then he emerged from the Lazarus Pit and… he sees Altaïr in the crowd of league members…

He doesn’t go to the pit regularly. Not as much as their father but…

He sees them… walking around, always near but too far at the same time.

Then an accident happened and Desmond was dunked into the Pit once more. He was too valuable to let die after all (and maybe… Ra’s Al Ghul did care for him in his own twisted way but, then again, so did William Miles).

When he emerges from the Lazarus Pit, he could hear them.

They talk to him now.

They support him, give him tips and suggestions…

They make him feel… warm.

A warmth that he rarely felt in this place. A warmth that he had only felt maybe once or twice from his father, more times with his twin but they would be so short they felt like they were already fleeting by the time Desmond felt it.

He knew then and there that the Lazarus Pit was dangerous.

Because he also knew… his body had grown stronger.

He had become more.

But the worst part? Desmond didn’t realize that he and the whispers he hears… they were being stripped of their moral compass little by little by the Lazarus Pit.

Desmond does his best not to go to the Pit. But, at the same time, he hears its call. He starts to wonder if the next time he goes to the Pit, he would be able to feel them. To touch them.

Then…

Bruce Wayne came to the League and asked to be trained.

He was… an interesting fellow, to say the least.

He could feel the sexual tension in the room whenever he and Talia were together.

And Desmond tried to keep his distance, more because Talia hates it when Desmond takes her ‘things’ even if Desmond didn’t intend to do it or didn’t even know they were her things from the very beginning.

None of that mattered.

But Bruce saw him.

And among the best of the Leagues, Bruce knew he was the one most challenging of all. His movements were erratic and random but they always strike true. It was like fighting multiple opponents at the same time, weaving in and out of different stances and fighting techniques like flowing water.

And Desmond was, by far, the most normal of the Leagues. As long as Bruce ignored how it always seem like Desmond is looking elsewhere as if someone who wasn’t there was talking to him or how he sometimes nods or makes noises that signify he was listening even though no one was speaking.

Then…

It all came crashing down.

Bruce became Batman and became a thorn in the side of the League.

And Gotham City becomes a beacon to the Leagues.

It’s not all bad though.

Desmond is more or less amicable to helping Batman if it interests him or benefits him in any way. Among the Leagues, he’s the one who Batman could trust the most. Batman knows Desmond has plans of his own for Gotham City and he has no qualms killing those he perceive as evil but Desmond could be reason with… to an extent.

Then… Jason Todd died…

Talia took his body and revived him in the Pit.

And Desmond watched as Jason tries to control himself as he stayed in the League. He was Talia’s though and Talia hates to share so…

He goes to him in secret. Only when they are alone and Desmond is sure Talia would not know of it later on. He tries to teach him how to channel his rage and that primal urge that seemed to come from being revived by the Pit. He teaches him the Creed and what it means to be an Assassin. Not one of the League’s assassin but an Assassin.

When Jason leaves the League, he bears a burn in his left ring finger and Desmond realized…

There was no need to continue to stay in the shadow, quietly and swiftly undermining the plans of the Leagues he didn’t agree with.

He just… needs to take matter on his own hands.

That’s when Desmond starts growing his own faction in the League itself. His moral compass skewered enough that he believes he can ‘fix’ the League and turn it into a real Assassin Brotherhood. He takes in Lady Shiva and his sister. Becomes Cassandra Cain’s guardian later on after the tragedy that pushes Cassandra Cain’s life was unraveled by Desmond himself.

Then Damien was born and Desmond couldn’t help himself. He sees himself a lot in Damien and he knows his sister enough to know she would fuck him up. He does not, however, realize that he wasn’t any better after all. He’s better in hiding it but… the Pit has affected him as well.

Damien would remember his kindness and would be the least inclined to go against Desmond even when he dons the cape of Robin and makes it his own. Desmond would always be the kind uncle who smiled at him and patted his head. The one who thought him how to kill men five times larger than him and how to care for eagles so they would be loyal to him. Desmond gave him a childhood that seemed both normal and strange. Damien would see how easy it was for Bruce Wayne and his family to care for him and feel a pang in his chest because that was the kind of love he felt from his uncle. And yet… his uncle stayed in the League and still continue to smile at him and tell him he’s doing well even when they’re on different side. Damien knows the League is wrong and that he’s doing the right thing but, at the same time… his uncle made him think that maybe… just maybe… No. Damien can’t think that. His father would be disappointed in him if he did.

Damien does not know that Bruce harbors the same ‘maybe’ in his mind. Every time he sees Desmond, he wonders if the League is beyond saving. But, unlike Damien, he does not hold Desmond with rose-tinted glasses. He knows how dangerous Desmond is.

So when Batman and his allies hear that a civil war has erupted in the League, one faction led by Desmond and another faction led by Ra’s… Batman can’t help but question if a League led by Desmond would be a good thing. A better alternative to Ra’s? For who? The League? The world? Himself?

Talia stays with their father, of course, she does. She does it not out of loyalty for their father but because she will always stand against her brother. That was how they were raised.

The Batfamily tries to stay away from all this. But some of them do tend to lean towards Desmond’s faction more. Mainly because Desmond is the ‘nice one’.

It would be Dick who reminds everyone that just because Desmond is nice to them doesn’t mean that they should lower their guard.

They must always remember.

Desmond… is an Assassin.

.

Unorganized Notes (this is gonna be short):

Red Hood would keep his connection to Desmond a secret. All Bruce knows is that Jason was with the League for a while but Bruce also knows that Talia thinks of Jason as hers because he’s Bruce’s and Bruce was hers.

Among the Batfamily, Red Hood and Robin would definitely be the ones to easily team up with Desmond’s Brotherhood.

Cassandra Cain doesn’t become Batgirl or Black Bat in this one (or, if you want her to be part of the Batfamily, not yet). She’s raised by Desmond and has a better childhood this time around although… okay, it’s a better childhood compared to canon but it’s still an Assassin childhood. She’s loyal to Desmond and sees him as her father figure. Although, she’d also grow close to the Batfamily as they team up some times.

Among the Batfamily, it would be Tim Drake who would be more willing to go along the more ‘violent’ plans that Desmond’s Brotherhood may do. Tim Drake is also the one who advocates that it’s better for Desmond to lead the League.

Dick is the one totally against it and some would say that he has no plank to stand on considering he became a Robin to get revenge but Dick is past that entire thing. He doesn’t support Ra’s faction as well and he’s more on the side of, whichever wins, the world would take the fall. The others (Babs, Stephanie, Kate and Duke) are on the fence about this and are waiting on what Batman would do.

Desmond is quite amicable to a few of Batman’s Rogue gallery. Poison Ivy is one of his staunch supporters as their end goal tend to align most of the time. Because of this, Harley Quin likes to call him their ‘bestie from another screwed up family’. She also knows that something is ‘wrong’ with Desmond but she doesn’t pry because ‘that’s not what friends do!’

Desmond likes to loudly say that Catwoman is a better match for Batman just to annoy Talia. He does not necessarily ship Batman with either his sister or anybody else because of Batman’s (gestures to ALL of Bruce’s everything) but annoying Talia is a favorite past time of his.

I absolutely did not include non-Batman characters because then I’d be writing this for far too long than I should but he hates Lexcorp. It reminds him too much of Abstergo XD

[jasontoddsno1simp]

If Jason Todd is a cop, then so is every vigilante in Gotham

They are ALL taking the law into their own hands - in case you numb nuts forgot, vigilantism is illegal. The only difference is that Jason is up front about the fact that he kills people, sometimes.

Instead of hashing and rehashing this stupid moral debate for the 3928281th time - like DC wants us to because they refuse to deal with the way they let one of their writers kill off a kid and the subsequently retconned that child's story so they could keep selling Robin merch - we have some fun with it.

Why does Jason kill?! What experiences in his life led him down this path?! I read an excellent post earlier about how Jason has all these monologues about Big Moral Ideas^TM and how that juxtaposes his actions. And instead of digging into that, people just leave it at "Oh, so you're a hypocrite, eh?! Got standards for everyone else that you feel you shouldn't have to follow, huh?!" as if that's an indictment of his character. And I mean, it is!! But why?! Why would Jason hold the heroes to standards that he doesn't deign to hold himself to?!

Could it be that he's positioned himself as a necessary evil?! That he's subconscious absorbed Bruce's inflexible moral framework?! That, according to that framewok, he understands that heroes must conduct themselves in a specific manner, else their heroism be called into question?! That he feels he's been called into a different direction?! That Gotham - Park Row - doesn't need another cape to save them, but rather they need someone who will avenge them?!

Jason, at his best, is jaded, but pragmatic. He doesn't rly believe in the hero community anymore, but he understands the necessity. He understands that he cannot be Batman, because he doesn't possess the moral inflexibility of Bruce. He doesn't feel regret after killing someone, because in his mind, that's what needed to happen to keep his people safe. And that makes him a villain. Something he does a lot of work to do to make himself feel okay about (which I don't think he does, but that's for later).

A more cynical interpretation of Jason would be that he doesn't believe in redemption. That once someone strays off the straight and narrow, their life needs to end. And I mean, in some cases that might be true. Humans are capable of some truly heinous shit and once you unlock that part of your soul, there's no going back. That's what I think, anyway. But to someone like Bruce, someone who condemns all killing, he'd make no room for any such distinctions. Especially with Jason being unrepentant.

And this is where we get into the meat and gristle of Jason and Bruce's dynamic - for Jason to operate under his own moral framework, Bruce must compromise his own.

In other words, for Bruce to sleep tight at night, he must strip his son of his agency. And Jason, someone who has had his agency stripped of him many a time in his life, is not too keen on that.

To me, Jason's story is about agency - about how those of us who aren't born into privilege must fight for our agency at every turn. As a child, Jason was stripped of his agency by poverty and doomed to be another lost cause by a system that isn't designed to help. Meeting Bruce and becoming Robin was a turning point for young Jason's life because it allowed him to claw back the agency that was stolen from him. Or so he thought. Because the second he didn't behave the way Bruce expected him to (and lest I remind you all that Bruce had been subtly adultifying this young boy since the second he met him), there goes his agency. Bruce strips him of the Robin mantle, therefore stripping him of his agency.

And before the Good Dad Bruce truthers come after me, I know this wasn't Bruce's intention - he took Robin away because he saw the way Robin was negatively affecting his son. And, to get a little meta here, Bruce probably clocked that even if he was able to get Jason the help he needed to manage his trauma, he couldn't allow him to be Robin anymore. Because Robin is a hero, and - according to Bruce - a hero's convictions must be unshakeable, lest their heroism be called into question.

And what makes for unshakeable convictions?! An inflexible moral framework with hard lines that must never be crossed. And if they are crossed, then said hero must throw themselves upon the sword in repentance.

Something that Jason refused to do.

And... if I'm being honest with you, there's no way forward with Jason's story without him reacting caustically to Robin being taken away. No matter how gently Bruce broke the news to Jason or how empathic he was, Jason would have reacted like a cat that had been slapped and thrown out the window. Because it was more than Robin. It was always more than Robin.

I'm gonna cap my analysis here because this has gotten way too fucking long, but my point is that if you're gonna do any kind of analysis or criticism of a character, I need y'all to reach deeper. Because what's the fucking point of shallow ass takes like "Jason is a cop cause he kills"?! Huh?! Not only is it fundamentally misinterpreting the character and his motivations - cops are authoritarians, something Jason is diametrically opposed to - but it's a dead end. It's a conclusion with no thesis statement.