#i. love. linguistics. (((:

[perfectlyripeclementine]

calling my lover "mine" but not in the way that my toothbrush or notebook are mine, mine in the way my neighborhood is mine, and also everybody else's, "mine" like mine to tend to, mine to care for, mine to love. "mine" not like possession but devotion.

[frenchiepal]

my camera roll from the last couple of months ⋆｡°✩

[scribefindegil]

As much as I adore conlangs, I really like how the Imperial Radch books handle language. The book is entirely in English but you're constantly aware that you're reading a "translation," both of the Radchaai language Breq speaks as default, and also the various other languages she encounters. We don't hear the words but we hear her fretting about terms of address (the beloathed gendering on Nilt) and concepts that do or don't translate (Awn switching out of Radchaai when she needs a language where "citizen," "civilized," and "Radchaai person" aren't all the same word) and noting people's registers and accents. The snatches of lyrics we hear don't scan or rhyme--even, and this is what sells it to me, the real-world songs with English lyrics, which get the same "literal translation" style as everything else--because we aren't hearing the actual words, we're hearing Breq's understanding of what they mean. I think it's a cool way to acknowledge linguistic complexity and some of the difficulties of multilingual/multicultural communication, which of course becomes a larger theme when we get to the plot with the Presgar Translators.

[splatoonpolls]

Scrumping means to steal fruit from someone else’s property.

Also! Reblog for a bigger audience

[lurkingteapot]

Every now and then I think about how subtitles (or dubs), and thus translation choices, shape our perception of the media we consume. It's so interesting. I'd wager anyone who speaks two (or more) languages knows the feeling of "yeah, that's what it literally translates to, but that's not what it means" or has answered a question like "how do you say _____ in (language)?" with "you don't, it's just … not a thing, we don't say that."

I've had my fair share of "[SHIP] are [married/soulmates/fated/FANCY TERM], it's text!" "[CHARACTER A] calls [CHARACTER B] [ENDEARMENT/NICKNAME], it's text!" and every time. Every time I'm just like. Do they though. Is it though. And a lot of the time, this means seeking out alternative translations, or translation meta from fluent or native speakers, or sometimes from language learners of the language the piece of media is originally in.

Why does it matter? Maybe it doesn't. To lots of people, it doesn't. People have different interests and priorities in fiction and the way they interact with it. It's great. It matters to me because back in the early 2000s, I had dial-up internet. Video or audio media that wasn't available through my local library very much wasn't available, but fanfiction was. So I started to read English language Gundam Wing fanfic before I ever had a chance to watch the show. When I did get around to watching Gundam Wing, it was the original Japanese dub. Some of the characters were almost unrecognisable to me, and first I doubted my Japanese language ability, then, after checking some bits with friends, I wondered why even my favourite writers, writers I knew to be consistent in other things, had made these characters seem so different … until I had the chance to watch the US-English dub a few years later. Going by that adaptation, the characterisation from all those stories suddenly made a lot more sense. And the thing is, that interpretation is also valid! They just took it a direction that was a larger leap for me to make.

Loose adaptations and very free translations have become less frequent since, or maybe my taste just hasn't led me their way, but the issue at the core is still a thing: Supernatural fandom got different nuances of endings for their show depending on the language they watched it in. CQL and MDZS fandom and the never-ending discussions about 知己 vs soulmate vs Other Options. A subset of VLD fans looking at a specific clip in all the different languages to see what was being said/implied in which dub, and how different translators interpreted the same English original line. The list is pretty much endless.

And that's … idk if it's fine, but it's what happens! A lot of the time, concepts -- expressed in language -- don't translate 1:1. The larger the cultural gap, the larger the gaps between the way concepts are expressed or understood also tend to be. Other times, there is a literal translation that works but isn't very idiomatic because there's a register mismatch or worse. And that's even before cultural assumptions come in. It's normal to have those. It's also important to remember that things like "thanks I hate it" as a sentiment of praise/affection, while the words translate literally quite easily, emphatically isn't easy to translate in the sense anglophone internet users the phrase.

Every translation is, at some level, a transformative work. Sometimes expressions or concepts or even single words simply don't have an exact equivalent in the target language and need to be interpreted at the translator's discretion, especially when going from a high-context/listener-responsible source language to a low-context/speaker-responsible target language (where high-context/listener responsible roughly means a large amount of contextual information can be omitted by the speaker because it's the listener's responsibility to infer it and ask for clarification if needed, and low-context/speaker-responsible roughly means a lot of information needs to be codified in speech, i.e. the speaker is responsible for providing sufficiently explicit context and will be blamed if it's lacking).

Is this a mouse or a rat? Guess based on context clues! High-context languages can and frequently do omit entire parts of speech that lower-context/speaker-responsible languages like English regard as essential, such as the grammatical subject of a sentence: the equivalent of "Go?" - "Go." does largely the same amount of heavy lifting as "is he/she/it/are you/they/we going?" - "yes, I am/he/she/it is/we/you/they are" in several listener-responsible languages, but tends to seem clumsy or incomplete in more speaker-responsible ones. This does NOT mean the listener-responsible language is clumsy. It's arguably more efficient! And reversely, saying "Are you going?" - "I am (going)" might seem unnecessarily convoluted and clumsy in a listener-responsible language. All depending on context.

This gets tricky both when the ambiguity of the missing subject of the sentence is clearly important (is speaker A asking "are you going" or "is she going"? wait until next chapter and find out!) AND when it's important that the translator assign an explicit subject in order for the sentence to make sense in the target language. For our example, depending on context, something like "are we all going?" - "yes" or "they going, too?" might work. Context!

As a consequence of this, sometimes, translation adds things – we gain things in translation, so to speak. Sometimes, it's because the target language needs the extra information (like the subject in the examples above), sometimes it's because the target language actually differentiates between mouse and rat even though the source language doesn't. However, because in most cases translators don't have access to the original authors, or even the original authors' agencies to ask for clarification (and in most cases wouldn't get paid for the time to put in this extra work even if they did), this kind of addition is almost always an interpretation. Sometimes made with a lot of certainty, sometimes it's more of a "fuck it, I've got to put something and hope it doesn't get proven wrong next episode/chapter/ten seasons down" (especially fun when you're working on a series that's in progress).

For the vast majority of cases, several translations are valid. Some may be more far-fetched than others, and there'll always be subjectivity to whether something was translated effectively, what "effectively" even means …

ANYWAY. I think my point is … how interesting, how cool is it that engaging with media in multiple languages will always yield multiple, often equally valid but just sliiiiightly different versions of that piece of media? And that I'd love more conversations about how, the second we (as folks who don't speak the material's original language) start picking the subtitle or dub wording apart for meta, we're basically working from a secondary source, and if we're doing due diligence, to which extent do we need to check there's nothing substantial being (literally) lost -- or added! -- in translation?

[saphig-iawn]

the feminine urge to skulk through the rain slicked streets of an african mega city in the wake of an invasion to solve a mystery that could turn the tide of a war unlike mankind has ever seen

[lazylittledragon]

You actually CAN use different words to muffle emotional effects! we've been making euphemisms for death for as long as we've had language, that's why we say things like "passed away". even the word "die" was an old Norse euphemism for the old English word "sweltan", which itself is a euphemism for the even older word "diegan". (I really agree with your post, the origin of using "unalive" is incredibly dystopian and censorship is awful, I just wanted to infodump about linguistics)

that's actually really cool!!!! thank you for sharing!!!

also anon i'm in a linguistics fixation right now so we shall have a summer wedding

[uncanny-tranny]

If you need help practicing pronouns, try using the pronouns you struggle with on your pets!

Animals have very little understanding of pronouns and human gender. They won't care if you use he, it, she, xie, bun, literally whatever - they only care about you and their food. They'll be fine! However, your loved ones will appreciate your effort in using pronouns, and using them properly. It's a win-win situation!

[visualtaehyun]

I already spent way too much time watching and dissecting this episode so let's get right into it!

Disclaimer: not a native Thai speaker, still learning 🙏

Title

คลื่นกลางมหาสมุทร /khluen glaang mahasamut/ = waves/ripples amidst the ocean

-> "Echoes Across the Endless Blue" sounds super pretty and, most obviously, it seems to refer to Rak's panic attack underwater

Writer Tongrak

Love that Mut's shirt matches the tassel curtains in Rak's room lol

I copied down the entirety of the 4 articles Mut found but I don't have time right now to translate them so let's just breeze over the last two right now-

The articles mention two of Rak's novels (irl they're MAME's obviously): - "The Boy Next World คนละกาลเวลา" aka the new BossNoeul series - "Love Director วาดรักกํากับใจ" aka the novels Prapai's uncle Frost is from

ViMook

their pronoun use: มุก /Mook/ -> พี่(วี) /phi (Vi)/ and พี่ /phi/ -> มุก /Mook/

A->B is to be understood as I->you, meaning Mook calls herself by name and Vi does so vice versa, and, because Vi is the older one, they both refer to her as พี่ /phi/

The name of Vi's script is so on the nose omg

กลพรางนางมารร้าย /gon phraang naang maan raai/ "The Devil's Tricks"

-> นาง /naang/ specifically means a woman, นางมารร้าย /naang maan raai/ can mean villainess, evil woman, demoness, ...think femme fatale, too. For reference, "The Devil Wears Prada" is called นางมารสวมปราด้า /naang maan suam Prada/ in Thai.

-> as far as I can make out, the cover says 'written and directed by วรรณรัตน์ รัตนเดช' (no clue what it says below his name) - that's Love Sea's art director:

And because I just about lost it at Vi leaving her underwear out for Mook to clean, here's our dearest pearl holding Vi's lacy undies hehehe

I keep calling her pearl btw because that's what her name means- ไข่มุก /khai mook/ = pearl

รางวัลสำหรับเลขาคนเก่ง /raang-wan sam-rap leh-khaa khohn geng/

-> เก่ง /geng/ is the same compliment Mut gives Rak later:

...and what got fittingly translated as "Quite the biter":

กัดเก่งเลยน่ะ /gat geng loei na/

ชาติที่แล้วเป็นหมารึไง /chaat thee laaeo bpen maa reu ngai?/ = Were you a dog in your previous life or what?

More from and about Rak

This translation took me out, it's so fitting and funny:

เสร็จแล้ว ปล่อยแล้ว ก็กลับไปได้แล้ว /set laaeo, bplaawy laaeo - gaaw glap bpai dai laaeo/ = Finished/Came, released - then you can go back now.

ก็ใครจีบพี่สุดหล่อติดน่ะ /gaaw khrai jip phi soot laaw dtit na/ = Well, whoever's gonna succeed in pursuing that handsome Phi (Rak).

พาไปกินข้าวหน่อย /phaa bpai gin khaao naawy/ -> หน่อย /naawy/ softens the request which kinda surprised me after he came in so fiercely with the possessiveness (that he immediately denied lol)

She calls herself พี่ /phi/ as in Rak's literal older sister! The credits tell me her name is ของขวัญ /khaawng khwan/ = gift, present

[ghouljams]

Truly a shame I am giving out Cowboy gold when I’m shadow-banned. Here’s some fluff of the gang dealing with Momma Duck getting home. Just pure domestic while I wait on support.

Simon pulls open the door on your third knock, it looks like you just woke him up. He’s still in his boxers and tee, scratching his chest as he leans against the door. His eyes drag from your sleep shorts, to your tank, to the shower caddy in your hand, just barely seeming to register any details but your bare skin. You really like sleepy Simon, but he’s not what you’re here for.

“Can I use your shower?”

“Use the one at the house,” He rumbles, voice thick with sleep and just a little too low for this early in the morning.

“Can’t,” you tell him pushing past him and into his little house, “Momma got in late last night so her and Daddy are hoggin’ all the water.” 

Simon hums and shuts the door behind you, following as you make your way to his bathroom. He grabs the door handle before you do, crowding you against the door as he holds it shut. The warmth of him makes you press back against the wood, his easy morning smile and tired eyes just made to lull you into compliance.

"You wanna stay here tonight?"

"Not on your life. My momma just got home I'm tryin'a enjoy her while I got her."

"You sure?" Simon drops to his knees like it's his job, hands sliding over your thighs to tug you closer in a way that makes your stomach drop and your panties wet. "Nothin' I could do to convince ya'?" You can feel the labor in each breath you take as Simon's lips ghost over your thigh, teeth just scraping the sensitive skin. Oh there is plenty he could do to convince you of anything. If he said the sky was red you might just believe him.

You swat at him quickly to stop yourself from folding. The devil is in his chuckle, just gotta remind yourself of that. He lets you go and you are quick to fall backwards into the bathroom, closing the door on him to ensure he doesn’t try anything funny.

Ghost hears the shower turn on and sits back on his heels with a sigh. You were going to be the death of him. He rubs a hand down his face, feeling the rough stubble, as he stares at the closed bathroom door. Might as well go put the kettle on while you get cleaned up.

He’s just turned the burner on when there’s another knock at the door. Simon truly wonders sometimes if God hates him. He crosses the short distance to his front door and pulls it open.

“Ah good, you’re up,” Soap says pushing past him, “I need your shower.”

“Goose is already in there,” Ghost tells him, holding on to the faint hope that might inspire him to leave. It doesn’t.

“Steamin’ hell, how early does that lass get up?” Soap swears, making a beeline for the kitchen, “You got coffee in here?”

“What I have is company.”

“Anno, and she’ll want coffee when she’s out,” Soap agrees, grabbing the little coffee pot from the corner and turning on the tap. Ghost sighs, and grabs the little coffee tin from the top shelf. He tosses it to Soap who eagerly sets about fixing a pot. The kettle whistles and Ghost grabs it to fix himself a mug of tea, the only sensible person in the small house.

There’s another knock at the door. Ghost draws a breath, when did he become a babysitter, and opens it.

“Can I-” Gaz starts.

“Goose’s already in there,” Soap calls from the kitchen.

“You hear the Captain and Missus too?” Gaz asks, shouldering past Ghost to join Soap in the kitchen.

“This isn’t a fucking common area.” Ghost grumbles, watching Gaz snag his tea. He sighs and shuts the door to go make another cup.

The shower shuts off as the coffee pot dings. Soap and Gaz discuss potential plans for the day, voices loud enough Ghost almost doesn’t hear the bathroom door open or your soft footsteps out. He looks up from his phone to watch you toweling off your hair, one of his sleep shirts fitting you like a dress.

“Where’d you get that?” He asks, holding out an arm to wrap around your waist as you settle on his lap.

“Nipped it from your hamper.” You settle back against his chest, reaching for the only untouched mug on the table. Simon hums behind you, moving your damp hair out of the way to press his lips to your neck. Simple and sweet. Soap gags loudly.

“Weird seeing you like this, mate.” Gaz says, earning a sympathetic shoulder pat from Soap as he gets up to grab the shower.

“Give your balls a tug, Garrick.” You tell him peaceably, feeling Simon smile against your skin.

“Oh you are- She is mean in the morning!” Gaz gasps, Simon’s shoulders shake behind you.

“Be nice,” Simon tells you, though he doesn’t even sound like he half means it.

[phantom-of-the-memes]

Irish language things

One of the many things I find interesting about Irish is that we have no word for yes or no. There are a few languages like this in which you echo back the question as a response.

So in English if you are asking “Did you buy ___?”.

You could reply with “I did buy ___”, but that’s quite formal and nobody would really say that. So you can simply reply with “yes/ no”.

But in Irish if you ask the same thing “Ar cheannaigh tú ___?”.

You can only reply with “Cheannaigh mé/ Níor cheannaigh mé ___”. Meaning I did buy/ I didn’t buy ___.

Young Irish speakers try to get away with using “Tá” or “Sea” as a universal yes and “Níl” as a universal no. But this is incorrect and drives older Irish speakers/ teachers mad. So don’t use them in your orals!

Most people do shorten things by just saying “Cheannaigh/ Níor cheannaigh” and not echoing back the whole sentence of what you did/ didn’t buy.

But yeah it’s just another one of those interesting linguistic things that can’t be fully translated to English. And it actually causes problem for people in school learning Irish because we try to translate what we’re thinking in English onto the paper.

Gotta love the English colonialism still affecting us to this day!

[erovalkyrie]

OH GOD I CAN'T

So, remember me telling you about German Disco Elysium translations?

Pinball machines are generally called "Flipperautomat" or "Flipper" for short in Germany, they have two flippy parts to play.

Now.

That makes Kim "Kimball" Kitsuragi...

FLIPPURAGI

FLIPPURAGI

"Hey, Flippuragi"

"WUNDERBAR, THE ONLY THING HE REMEMBERS IS THE FLIPPERCOPPO"

[frenchiepal]

a couple of pics from the last weeks ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ i finally decided on the topic of my bachelor thesis and i'm so happy to have found something i'm genuinely passionate about!

[yonpote]

OH PHIL BEING FULL ON INFODUMPING ABOUT LINGUISTICS THIS IS EVERYHING TO MEEEEEEE

[brown-spider]

I made a note document titled "Hobie and Noir's Stupid Words"

I really sat here and took notes while watching 1970's films that took place in London, and 1930's films that took place in NYC to study their turns of phrase, idioms, insults, and so on. I feel like an insane person.

Anyways how has your day been? Productive?

[exercise-of-trust]

seemingly cool fiber arts person i followed a little bit ago just put radfem shit on the dash, anyway the blanket statement that the only contributions of men to textile production are capitalist/exploitative and the only contributions of women are household-centric/victimized is patently untrue. while less of a documented presence, women in medieval europe [1] absolutely participated in weaver's guilds and commercial cloth production [2], and men have been participating in household knitting in all parts of europe for as long as knitting has been a thing there [3]. like i'm not trying to say women haven't been deeply excluded from economic opportunities in the textile trade for centuries but you cannot be making sweeping statements like that about everyone in every part of the world through all of history and expect them to be true. do, like, a basic level of research and have a basic understanding of nuance, i beg of you [4]

footnotes/sources/etc under the cut, sources are a bit basic because i just grabbed whatever was nearest to hand but they should suffice to prove my point:

[1] i'm only referring to western europe here because that's the only region i feel comfortable talking about in any detail without embarrassing myself. systems of medieval cloth production in european guilds are not gonna look anything like the systems of hundreds of servants employed to do textile production for a household in china. don't make categorical statements about everyone everywhere all at once, you will end up with egg on your face.

[2] quotes from "when did weaving become a male profession," ingvild øye, danish journal of archaeology, p.45 in particular.

england: "in norwich, a certain elizabeth baret was enrolled as freeman of the city in 1445/6 because she was a worsted weaver, and in 1511, a riot occurred when the weavers here complained that women were taking over their work" + "another ordinance from bristol [in 1461] forbade master weavers to engage wives, daughters, and maids who wove on their own looms as weavers but made an exception for wives already active before this act" germany: "in bremen, several professional male weavers are recorded in the early fourteenth century, but evidently alongside female weavers, who are documented even later, in 1440" -> the whole "even later" thing is because the original article is disputing the idea that men as weavers/clothiers in medieval europe entirely replaced women over time. also: "in 1432-36, a female weaver, mette weuersk, is referred to as a member of the gertrud's guild in flensburg, presently germany" scandanavia: "the guild of weavers that was established in copenhagen in 1500 also accepted female weavers as independent members and the rules were recorded in the guild's statutes"

[3] quotes from folk socks: the history and techniques of handknitted footwear by nancy bush, interweave press, 2011, don't roast me it was literally within arm's reach and i didn't feel like looking up more stuff

uk/yorkshire dales: "...handknitting had been a daily employment for three centuries [leading up to 1900]. practiced by women, children, and men, the craft added much to the economy of the dales people." (p.21) uk/wales: re the knitting night (noson weu/noswaith weu) as a social custom practiced in the 18th/19th c.: "all the ladies would work on their knitting; some of the men would knit garters" (p.22) uk/channel islands: "by the early seventeenth century, so many of the islands' men, women, and children had taken up the trade of knitting that laws were necessary to keep them from knitting during harvest" (p.24) -> this one is deeply funny to me, in addition to proving my point uk/aberdeen: "the knitters, known as shankers, were usually women, but sometimes included old men and boys" (p.26) denmark: "with iron and brass needles, they made stockings called stunthoser, stomper, or stockings without feet, as well as stockings with feet. the men knit the legs and the women and girls made the heels" (p.32) iceland & faroe islands: "people of all ages and both sexes knit at home not only for their own use but for exportation of their goods as well" (p.35)

[4] actually? no. i'm not begging for shit from radfems. fuck all'a'y'all.