#i like how radfems will look at things like choice feminism and have nothing but criticism

[teenagefeeling]

just learned of the existence of the 4B movement and all i have to say is fucking yikes

[pillarsalt]

I was seeing so much hate for radfems that I finally decided to check it for myself and the amount of misinformation about your group is crazy. The whole "radfems love beauty standards" touted everywhere but I see more posts denouncing the beauty industry in a day by radfems than I ever do everywhere else because people implode if you say that shaving is bad. The "radfems love being victims and want to remain victims" thing when it's women giving each other advice on to leave abusive relationships. Like. It's insane. I've seen bad parts of it that were victim blamey or racist but the overwhelming majority is just feminism. Good feminism that criticizes society as a whole. And more black and racial minority women than anywhere else on tumblr. I feel like I was immensely lied to. I'm less alarmist about trans people and I think that calling them slurs or disrespecting them is unnecessary but truthfully it is awful that sex has been erased from talks about feminism. I have no idea what kind of parallel reality everybody lives in because I found myself agreeing with a ton of things radfems say and I even believe that the people wrongfully calling you out would agree too if they listened.

Thanks for this message anon, and thanks for making the choice to look into things for yourself instead of just going along with what everyone tells you. Very few people who hate "terfs"/feminists actually understand our points of view, because it's forbidden to even briefly read or listen to what we have to say, the reasoning being that we'll somehow magically "indoctrinate" you. No one's allowed to hear us, so when asked "but why are they so bad?" they have to make up random bullshit that has nothing to do with what we believe. The real reason is because our arguments are quite basically common sense approaches to women's rights and pattern recognition when it comes to differences in male and female experiences. It's hard to un-see what was right in front of your eyes the whole time.

I'll add that I personally don't think calling trans people or anyone else slurs is acceptable. I do think a lot of women on the feminist side of tumblr have a lot of anger and resentment built up towards men who identify as trans because of the misogyny they've seen come out of the trans movement, anger I honestly think is justified. The moral high ground is always the best road to take, but after having womanhood mansplained to you for the hundredth time as a collection of regressive stereotypes because you're just a stupid bigot cis bitch and you wouldn't get it, yeah being a bit mean in return is understandable. I still think it's unnecessary to use slurs.

I really agree with your last point, there's a reason that feminist rhetoric is so suppressed on both sides of the political spectrum. Consciousness raising is so important, caring about women is important. No matter how hard they try to silence us, women will keep talking to each other and women will continue to wake up to the lies they're being fed.

[pineapplerightsideupcake]

Hi! Trans person here!

I was wondering what your blog was about?

because I’m kinda confused, I’m a feminist but what’s so different from normal feminism and radfem and terf feminism?

because I don’t know what’s going on?

nice to meet you!

Hi! My blog is just what I believe. Radical feminism is probably the closest to what I myself believe but nothing is gospel. If any ideology agrees with you 100% you are either cherry picking- or you’ve turned your brain off.

The differences between schools of feminist thought are waaaaaay too complicated to explain in an ask. Entire PhDs are created by writing on this topic.

I can try and give you a very very simplified version though but I encourage you to explore more on your own.

Mainstream feminism believes sex work can be sanitized and exploitation can be eliminated. It frequently tries to combat the harsh judgement and social stigma associated with it by framing sex work as empowering. They feel the same about pornography.

Radical feminism recognizes that sex work is inherently exploitative and that consent can’t be bought. It recognizes that as long as patriarchy and poverty exist women will always be seen as objects for purchase. It acknowledges that sex work doesn’t happen in a vacuum and demand creates supply which means trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable women is inevitable. This is also true of its view of pornography.

Mainstream feminism believes that women’s individual choices to wear make up and perform femininity or to get plastic surgery are above scrutiny or criticism. They believe that women can do these thing “for themselves” and therefore it denies women agency by “policing” their choices

Radical feminism once again acknowledges that nothing happens in a vacuum. It doesn’t believe that any choice that reinforces the patriarchy can ever be chosen from a neutral place- there will always be coercion.

Mainstream feminism believes that the patriarchy also harms men. Some would go as far as to claim the patriarchy hurts men equally.

Radical feminism believes the patriarchy occasionally backfiring on men does not mean it isn’t still a system designed and perpetuated by men because it ultimately benefits them more than it could ever hurt them.

And lastly mainstream feminism believes that it is Gender ID and not biological sex that should be the basis of how we view the world and create laws: trans women are women, trans men are men and all social norms and laws must reflect this fact. It frames gender as a quirky form of self expression, except when a conservative is doing it- then it’s made up.

Radical feminism believes women are oppressed due to their sex and biology. It views gender as an oppressive social construct that upholds patriarchy. It challenges the idea that it is safe or fair for women to have to cede resources, space, and language to trans women.

That all said, it’s likely you would find some of my perspectives to be personally hurtful if you’re trans. I’m passionate about what I believe but I’m never looking to be deliberately hurtful. But this is a place where I vent. I’m going to speak from a place of anger sometimes so engage at your own risk.

[askgothamshitty]

Hey so when you were a terf, did you watch any like terf youtubers like magdeln burns or content creators outside of tumblr or was tumblr the only space you interacted with terfy content? If so how has deradicalizing change your perspective about those creators and their perspectives?

I was a TERF from ~2013-2014 and I don’t remember many TERF content creators existing at that time. I think Arielle Scarcella was around but this was when she was just talking about lesbian stuff and not yet leaning into the gender critical stuff. So I was getting all my ideas from other tumblr users.

At the time I thought these women were really interesting because they were saying things I had never heard before as someone who was, up until that point, a libfem. They weren’t afraid of critiquing sex or porn or prostitution. Because of this I was very open to hearing their position on trans people. I thought, if they’re right about those other things, they must also be right about this. I saw the hate they got from the mainstream LGBTQ community as dismissible because these women were the “real radicals” who were simply speaking the truth and making people uncomfortable. (Looking back this is a lot similar to how Trump supporters defend Trump lol).

I ended up leaving the community and renouncing TERFism because of two realizations. The first developed slowly, which was that this community never talked about anything else besides trans women. Not Palestine, not Black Lives Matter (both big issues at the time), nothing. Day in and day out, all these people talked about was how terrible trans women were. So I started to question why that was, if these were “the true radicals” as they said.

The second realization was quick and basically shattered the illusion overnight. In December of 2014 a young trans girl on tumblr Leelah Alcorn took her life and posted her suicide note here. It circulated and got a lot of traction, and the whole site was in mourning. Well everyone except for the TERFs. They thought it was disgusting that people were grieving a “male oppressor” and insisted that the most feminist thing to do was to not care at all, or even be glad. This was a 15/16 year old girl! She talked about her parents forcing her into conversion therapy! I was disgusted. I couldn’t believe this was the group of “feminists” I had associated with. I knew I had made the wrong choice listening to them. I unfollowed them all, deleted my radfem sideblog, and stopped calling myself a radfem/GC.

Now I see the TERFs for what they are: hateful bigots who use the veneer of feminism to look progressive. They’re no different from your average conservative in how prejudiced they are. They may hold correct views on some feminist issues but when it comes to gender/sex they have it completely wrong. They use lies and misdirection and misinformation to lure young, ignorant feminists into their community.

I try to interact with them as little as possible. As soon as I come across one, I block them. Even just going back and forth with them on Twitter is exhausting. It’s like talking to a MAGA loser.

[counterpunches]

Your absolute trust in Zionism and the rapid defense that Israel has done nothing wrong against the Palestinian people, the ironclad belief that everyone on tumblr is actually just antisemitic - it reminds me of when I fell into radfem discourse.

It started innocently enough - I’m a woman, I saw everywhere all the time the way men harm women. The way misogyny affects every part of our lives. The way people mock women’s experiences, don’t get equal medical care, the way women are still so beholden to men especially in the age of toothless choice feminism.

And then TERF’s came. The thing about radfem circles is they make you believe everyone is against you. YOU are the only reasonable person, your belief is just and true, and anyone who speaks against your beliefs is only attacking you, oppressing you, because you have been WRONGED by the world. “Trans women are hurting women” is an easy conclusion they lead you to - after all, women are oppressed right? The whole world hates women! It makes sense that all these other groups are ALSO oppressing women, harming them in some way.

They remind you it’s you against the world, that your belief in the cause is the defense that is needed - they more people attack the belief that you are oppressed and right and just, the more you defend it - they’re all wrong, they’re disillusioned, “LOOK at the way we are suffering, look at how they attack us, surely we are right!”

But I wasn’t right.

Sure, women are oppressed, but so are other groups. This is blasphemy, in those circles, to say women might have power over another.

Yes, a group can be grievously harmed in one way, and go and harm another. Pointing this out is not hatred. Our instinct is to coil inwards, to prove WE are the most just, WE are the most harmed, WE are the most justified - this is also the thinking that religions do, that cults do, that political parties do.

Israel should not be killing Palestinian civilians. This is not hatred to say so. This is not antisemitic. This is a fact. Israel has security concerns based on decades of incursion and systemic oppression of the Palestinian people. Jewish people have long been a nation without a state, and have suffered harm for it, and it is understandable they will viciously and zealously defend that burgeoning state. But it is not antisemitism to say “killing and bombing of a population who cannot defend themselves” is a crime and morally repugnant. The US did this in the Middle East and it was repugnant then too.

We all believe we are infallible and our injuries hurt the most. But we are not always right.

"absolute trust in Zionism and the rapid defense that Israel has done nothing wrong against the Palestinian people"

You're absolutely right. Absolute trust in most things and denial of another groups peoplehood is wrong.

I, however, have never said anything of the sort.

I'm not an extremist. I am a Zionist, under the definition of 'the establishment and existence of a homeland for the Jewish people'. That's it.

Of course Israel has done wrong against the Palestinian people. There is no doubt, no question.

"a group can be grievously harmed in one way, and go and harm another. Pointing this out is not hatred"

Yes! This is absolutely true. You are absolutely right.

Israel should not be killing Palestinian civilians. This is not hatred to say so

No one should kill any civilians! That is the ideal in a just and peaceful world. However the world is not ideal. Israel shouldn't be put in a position to kill Palestinian civilians.

It is not hatred to say innocent Palestinians are being killed.

It is, however, ridiculous to say (ironically borrowing from the UN's words) that Palestinians innocents are being killed in a vacuum.

Like, Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade and murder innocent civilians.

Like, Israel pulled their own citizens out of the Gaza Strip in 2005 - pulled people from their homes, and left it all to the Palestinian people to govern themselves, in an effort for peace. Land for peace has historically been Israel's strategy and barring the awful right-wing party, has been pretty successful. Any Israeli land gained since 1948 has come as a result of external declarations of war from neighboring Arab states.

And, like, the reason innocent Palestinians are being killed is because a terrorist organization started this war by invading another country and slaughtering hundreds and kidnapping innocents, knowing full well what the retaliation would be?

Like, the reason innocent Palestinians are being killed is because a terrorist organization has literally built itself inside and underneath the entire infrastructure of civilian life? In hospitals, mosques, schools, homes?

Like, that innocent Palestinians are literally put in harms way as a human shields?

It is not hatred to point out that innocent Palestinians are dying. And that this is a tragedy. They are starving! They are dying! Their homes have been destroyed, they literally have no where else to go. Their own brethren do not and have never wanted them. They are stuck.

It is, however, hatred to think this is all Israel's fault alone.

It is, however, hatred to condemn this war as the largest moral repugnance without also mentioning in the same breath what is happening in Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Syria, and Russia/Ukraine.

A friend of mine recently traveled to Israel for the first time in November and remarked that there was some worrying nationalism. People seeing 'PRESS' on her clothing and asking “are you for us, or against us?”

A worrying thing on its own, to be sure.

But when you take into consideration the vitriol shown around the world towards Israel, towards Jews - all Jews everywhere - it becomes a little more of a warranted statement. The world is literally against us. Has always been. Literally always been. This hatred is old. This hatred is deep. It is so deep, people don't understand they're falling into age old tropes and traps. It's so deep, its circular.

We have a very good reason to be defensive. We have had to be defensive for thousands of years. The world has always told us there is no place for us. And when we have a place, they've told us we're not supposed to have it.

Israel is not perfect. I have never and will never say it is. There is systematic prejudice and racism in the government and in Israeli policies. These must be fixed. My family has been protesting the Right for years. My family has been on the ground fighting this kind of racism and hatred for years. My family believes in for equality for everyone.

Just because this war is tragic and heartbreaking on all fronts doesn't mean its a genocide.

There didn't have to be a war.

They could have always and could still let the hostages go.

Innocent Palestinians didn't have to die.

Hamas is doing everything in its power to make sure the causalities are high.

“LOOK at the way we are suffering, look at how they attack us, surely we are right!”

Everyone is suffering. Hold multitudes. Whether or not you agree with the direction the war has taken (different choices should and could be made. No choice is easy), it is not hatred to say that Israel has the right to defend itself. It is not hatred to say that innocent people are dying in the process.

It is, however, hatred and antisemitism, to ignore the whys. It is, however, antisemitism to deny us our defensiveness when the world ignores other atrocities and wars and thinks only us vicious, rabid monsters.

There's an endless amount of things I could say to defend myself but I'm tired. I'm so tired. There are so many other sources, other posts. Look at my tags and find them if you want. Or don't. Whatever. I don't know if this is a troll comment in disguise or not, I'm just bleeding in a little good faith.

[leucoma]

here's my (very long) rant about "girl's girls" and the importance of intersectional feminism

i will be blocking anyone who’s unnecessarily rude on this post. i may turn reblogs off if necessary but they’re tentatively on for now

so, i saw this post:

some of y'all really aren't a "girls girls" like you claim. your definition of "girlhood" is pink bows and sharing lipgloss. you repost "female rage" compilations with just conventionally attractive white women. you say "i'm just a girl" after doing something unintelligent. this is just repackaged woman hatred. it's not intersectional. it's shallow and lame.

i don’t necessarily disagree with anything said here, but it was posted by a radfem. and, as a disclaimer, i do identify as transgender (specifically androgyne), but i’m AFAB, i’m typically interpreted as a woman, and intersectional feminism is an essential part of my core beliefs. i have never and will never detach myself from my experiences as someone who grew up experiencing misogyny, but i simultaneously do not see myself as a woman, because that’s simply not my identity at this point in my life.

i think boiling feminism down to an aesthetic and an excuse for “unintelligent” behavior is extremely harmful, and that’s exactly what’s been happening lately. i know the “demure” trend started as a joke, but women who take it too seriously are genuinely causing harm to themselves and others. modesty is all fine and good, but faux modesty in the form of bragging (sometimes to shame others for being unideal in some way) is downright cruel to women in general, and demeaning to the self in the sense that if you label your personality, presentation of self, interests, and behaviors as uniquely feminine traits, you’re putting yourself in a box and saying “look at me, i’m ideal! i’m feminine! that’s how all women should be!” … not to mention all the “girl math” and “i’m just a girl” sorts of phrases that have been repeated endlessly, as referenced in the post i saw.

on the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with expressing femininity. but you must be careful not to gatekeep it. femininity is not just for white women, not just for cisgender women, not just for young women! besides, any gender can express femininity to whatever degree they want. it’s not hurting anyone. (and also, no woman owes society any sort of stereotypical femininity in the first place! someone’s presentation should always be a personal choice!) and i want to emphasize that yes, if you are an adult who identifies as a woman, you can absolutely call yourself a “girl,” but don’t forget that you, too, have responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is to not downplay your own autonomy in life… consider why you want to be seen as “just a girl.” is it to deflect accusations of wrongdoing? you’re your own person. you control you. claiming otherwise to be cutesy is very, very dangerous to yourself and other women.

i also strongly believe that if you're going to call yourself a girl's girl, you should at least actually work to be a feminist, and incorporate intersectionality into your values, and include trans women in your conversations about gender, whether you "agree” with transgender identities or not (because, let's face it, a stranger's identity and decisions about presentation are not yours to judge if they don't actually affect you, and transgender individuals face a lot of dangers and hardships whether you want to victim blame them for it or not)

tl;dr please stop gatekeeping femininity, and stop playing dumb and ditzy (a crude caricature of femininity) just to feel accepted by society. why should your presentation be the thing that defines you? and if you unironically say you’re “just a girl” as an excuse for harmful actions or as a refusal to learn from life, why are you so opposed to personal growth? focus on your actions as a person instead and let others live!

[hard--headed--woman]

Hi, sorry to bother you- how did you talk to your family about radfem principles? My mom is a liberal feminist. Particularly on the trans rights issue, I don't know how to feel anymore. One of my friends was significantly more happy when they came out as trans, and so I feel like I see the 'mental health' aspect before my own eyes. I think none of the trans people I know would ever be a danger to women in bathrooms, either. But that being said, I've never had a feminine feeling in my life and I don't think I'm non-binary either (although maybe the knowledge that I'm not is the self-identification??). I think maybe the difference between a gnc woman and a trans man is just profound discomfort with your body from a young age, and maybe then it can be appropriate to live as a woman. But I also don't think lesbians should be shamed for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman either. I'm very stuck at this point and I'd like to talk to my mom about it without looking like a bigot (but if you have any of your own comments to add on this ideological tension please give them).

Hello! I'm glad you came to talk to me about it. I'll try my best to help you, you can send me another ask if you have something to add after that!

I guess it was easier for me since my mom (this amazing woman) shares many of my radfem beliefs. I wouldn't call her a radfem because she's not involved in activism and still disagrees with some radfems ideas, but she agrees with me on trans/gender issues (in the radfem way, not the conservative way), prostitution, porn, and a lot of other things. She has always supported JK Rowling, criticized gender ideology, etc. So when I realized I was gender critical, I just started to talk about it with her and there was nothing complicated. I don't talk about it with my dad, because he's anti gender too but I know we would end up disagreeing and arguing over many gender critical subjects.

The only person I kind of had to introduce my ideas too is my little sister. She has a lot of radfem beliefs, and is critical of a lot of things about gender ideology (she doesn't think lesbians can like trans women for example) so it was easier too, but I still have to be careful because she is still pro trans. To be able to talk about it with her, I just randomly started to ask questions about gender, transgenderism, gender ideology, etc. I would ask her why we should allow trans women in our bathrooms, why was it considered ok to allow kids to transition, why made a trans woman/man a woman/man, etc... And it leads us to conversations, debates, which can be very interesting !

The reason why I say that is because I think that's the best way to start talking about gender ideology/radical feminism with someone who's a TRA/libfem. You can calmly ask questions, say some facts, or innocent sentences. "Calmly" is very important, talk about it like it's just a random conversation and you're just genuinely curious, not like you want to argue. They probably won't think you're a bigot if you just seem genuinely interested and ready to keep the chat friendly, and the debate will be much more pleasant and interesting.

Sometimes (many of my friends) people start agreeing with radical feminism/gender critical feminism thanks to these debates, or they at least learn about the awful sides of their ideology and start to stand up against these, and that's very important ! I feel like we should all have more conversations aboutit with our family, friends...

For the rest, well, I am a GNC lesbian (not out to my family) and I think there's no objective difference between a trans man and a lesbian/GNC woman/ or just woman. There are no criterias, it's just a choice. You decide if you want to identify as trans or not.

Which means women can feel profound discomfort with their bodies, having gender dysphoria, hating being lesbians, etc... without identifying as trans. Some women identify as trans men without feeling any of this. There are no rules. Being trans is nothing but a choice.

What makes you a woman or a man is your biological sex. That's why lesbians can't like trans women - trans women are men.

And to finish this, I believe that yes, at first it can feel better to come out as trans but I don't feel like it really last. At the beginning, yeah, but I think then it makes things worse, because you realize that you will never really be a woman/man no matter how hard you try. Nothing will never be enough. And for trans people, this idea and feeling can be hard to handle. Just my opinion, of course !

Anyway, I don't know your mom, but I think you could just start asking questions, giving your opinion when she replies, calmly, or even play dumb - that works everytime. See where the conversation go then, and you might be able to talk about everything after that.

My box is open of you have other things to say <3

[rantingcrocodile]

Too many of the “Radical Feminism 101″ posts are just lists of what radical feminists are against and not about how to unlearn internalised misogyny, and that’s why you have “radfems” who can both say, “I’m a radfem because I’m anti-porn, anti-surrogacy, gender critical...” etc and then unironically say the nastiest, cruellest and most disgusting things about and to other women.

When you have tick-box lists of what radical feminism is, anyone can LARP as a radfem by reblogging the right things from the right women and then feel like that’s protection from any criticisms of misogyny. 

It’s especially common in women who have made their entire online personalities nothing but “I hate men.” There’s a difference between venting and then obsessively hating men to the point that the focus of their “feminism” is men instead of actually educating and supporting women. That leads to the most offensive takes like “homophobic and biphobic straight women aren’t actually a problem because the straight men are worse,” or “white women being racist to MOC isn’t actually a problem because they’re men first,” which only ends up harming lesbians, bisexual women and WOC, and those are only a few examples.

Then there are the “rudefems,” who are nothing but failed “radfems,” the women who say that they started out as “nicefems,” but then who realised that it was much more difficult than they realised to personally maintain a sense of class consciousness with all women, so immediately “forget” what patriarchy does to women and then they treat every single woman who behaves the way that patriarchy has conditioned her to behave like she’s a failure in some way, like the only “good” women are the cruel “radfem” women.

The point of radical feminism is for women’s liberation, and that means supporting women as a class. That doesn’t mean jumping to see a horrible woman and then scrabbling around in the dirt to excuse her actions and blame men instead. That doesn’t mean excusing abusive women, protecting violent women, coddling racist women, feeling pity for homophobic and biphobic women, patting ableist women on the head, cooing for classist women, etc etc etc. It means that no woman, at all, whatever she has done, should ever be victimised by misogyny and she should be free of oppression by the patriarchy. That’s all. We can recognise motivations behind the actions of the above women, we can see the factors of patriarchy in their choices, we can applaud women who break free of environments where bigotry was the norm and they learned to be better, but that doesn’t mean absolving any crime or bad behaviour from a woman just because she’s a woman. That just isn’t feminist.

If your “radical feminism” has you feeling like you’re somehow special and superior to other women in some way, if you look down on women who don’t have their eyes opened in the way you think your eyes are open, if you demand specific labels that women need to use before you think they’re “good enough” or otherwise treat radical feminism like it’s an identity politics game, then you’re not a radical feminist, you’re a misogynist with extra steps.

That’s all.

[lie-where-i-land]

Okay this is exactly what I mean by “people don’t know how to recognize radfem talking points, and will reblog posts by radfems that may have a kernel of truth but are at their core informed by their (unfactual, hateful) belief structure.”

Someone reblogs this:

Which looks pretty reasonable on the surface. Yes it’s absolutely wild that systemic sexism of this level is so recent in our history.

Here’s what tipped me off that a radfem wrote this:

“Pornography has never been this depraved or this popular”

Some radfem SparkNotes for you: you will see a lot of radfems being anti sex work, anti porn, and anti kink.

This does not mean that everyone that talks about these things is a radfem. It does not mean that there are not legitimate conversations to be had about these topics. “People can violate consent and cause harm during a kink scenario, like in any sexual situation. Here’s how to stay safe during sex. ” is a reasonable conversation. “Only men like deviant kink because of the power trip it gives them, and any woman who engages in kink is being taken advantage of” is NOT.

But when I see “ooh porn is the work of the devil the patriarchy” I stop and research before I give airtime to the post. Turns out I was right, in this case.

Here’s what I find the in top posts for this user:

Okay so we see this user posting “transgender and the modern era of McCarthyism” tagged radfem and feminism.

And we have a post about sexism and birth control that accelerates past all reasonable discussion of sexism and family planning to … say men want to keep women on estrogen to underdevelop our muscles.

The radfem tags ought to be enough to clue you in. This is not someone who has good intentions.

The birth control post and the voting rights post are how they get you to follow them so they can indoctrinate you.

There is nothing a radfem posts that is not informed by their worldview. And when you’re not adept at spotting radfems you can internalize the messages they sneak into an otherwise unremarkable post.

Look, I am not saying that everything you consume needs to be from a 100% ideologically pure source. You are never going to find a source that is unbiased or fully knowledgeable of all things. Reading a library book by a somewhat troubling author, and being able to understand how the author’s worldview impacts their writing and the narrative choices they make, and identify how their biases show up in the text, is not what I’m talking about in this post.

Tumblr blogging activity works differently. By reblogging a radfem, it’s like you gave the radfem the keys to your house (your blog) and you gave your followers the radfem’s phone number. People can be radicalized by books, yes. But the internet is an even more powerful tool for radicalization because it functions through total saturation. On the internet, you have a 24/7 phone line to people with bad intentions piping the rhetoric of radicalization directly to you.

You can’t have a months long intimate conversation with Orson Scott Card. But you can with tumblr user real-vulva-witch. And she’s going to try and radicalize you.

[werevulvi]

I wanted to write a bit about sex segregated spaces, in regards to people who pass as the opposite sex. This is not actually about trans people, as much as it is about the safety, integrity and general rights of male-passing biological women. I am not the only gender non-conforming woman who gets tossed out of female only spaces, based on the false presumption that we’re men. I do not care about validating trans women, or even trans men, for that matter. I care about real life practicality, risks and safety for ALL women, not just those who look conveniently clearly female, which starts with accepting that some women, whether they've medically transitioned or not, pass as male. And none of them should have to feminise themselves to access female only spaces. Whether that be to ensure safety from males, or to just take a leak.

The fact that I choose to keep my beard has almost nothing to do with that I'm male-passing. It may be my strongest "male" feature, but it's hardly the only one. I still pass as male with a clean shaven face, which makes shaving my beloved beard rather pointless, in my opinion. I would realistically need to go through more than just facial hair removal to pass as my own sex again. I'd probably even need facial feminisation surgery, hair transplant, voice feminisation and full body hair removal, at the very least, to even get close to passing as female again. But even then, I'd probably STILL be read as a trans woman, i.e. male. And even IF I did all that... WHY should I have to mutilate myself (a second time) by buying into harmful patriarchal beauty standards, which would worsen my dysphoria and reduce my comfort in my own skin significantly, to be allowed the safety of male-free spaces?

Does that sound feminist to you? Because to me, it's incredibly misogynistic, and strongly counterproductive. To uphold patriarchal gender roles for the safety of women... is the most insanely anti-feminist double standard I can possibly ever think of.

To lay out my argument on this topic, I'm going to use my own experiences as examples a lot. Mostly because I cannot with any conscience speak for anyone else than myself, at least not in such detail and with such harsh judgement. But I'm sure a lot of my experiences are applicable to other masculine women as well.

First off, I still consider myself gender critical, but my allegiance to radical feminism has been waning lately. This is mostly due to that although I agree with the base premise of radfem, I tend to disagree with the proposed solutions to almost all of the issues, because to me they come across as unfounded beliefs (yes, BELIEFS) that "it would just work" without much of any evidence to back up such a claim.

And when it comes to trans people, I've noticed a lot of... shall we say, willful ignorance, going on among many radfems, which does affect opinions on gender abolishion as well as sex segregated spaces to appear rather... intellectually dishonest, to be frank. Although this is not intended as a call out by any means, I merely want for people of all sides of the radfem/gender critical/pro-trans fence to stay critical and keep questioning everything, even one's own beloved ideology. Which I don't see a lot of. Instead I see almost religious defending of radfem as the ultimate/perfect ideology... oh, guess where I've seen that before? I've come to believe that "hivemindedness" is probably part of every possible ideology out there. Even radfem.

So, anyway.

One thing I come across time and time again is the belief (yes, I dare say "belief") that people never pass as the opposite sex, although it's mostly directed at trans people, this very much applies to people who are just gnc as well. Let's not forget that. And this belief seem to often lead to that transitioned/gnc people can just use the space intended for their biological sex, no problem. However, this is not the case. There is a problem. Very many trans people, and some gnc people, pass well enough to at least blend in enough to not raise much of an eyebrow among the opposite sex, and to most definitely stand out as an outsider among people of the same sex. OR they pass barely enough as either sex, and thus stand out as an outsider among both the same sex and the opposite sex, which can cause similar problems with single sex spaces.

There's also the thing that it generally is easier to pass as the opposite sex among complete strangers, compared to people who know you/your background. They tend to read you differently, depending on that.

At least in my experience, complete strangers assume I'm male and don't even as much as raise an eyebrow about how male I come across as. They accept their false assumption at face value. And why wouldn't they? 99,97% of people who "look like me" are biologically men. Then people who know I'm transitioned, but didn't know me pre-transition, tend to see me as a female who looks very convincingly male, whether that makes me a masculine woman, trans man, or any other (female) label in their eyes. They claim to be able to "see" my female nature, yet they somehow had no idea before I told them about my true sex. Then people who know about my history and saw it happen from the time before my transition (now only really my family) never quite succeeded to see me as anything other than a gnc woman. To quote my dad: "You look like a woman who's trying to look like a man." Although I'm sure my mom and sister don't have quite as harsh views about me, lol. They still seem to see me the way they always have, regardless of what name or pronouns they use for me.

This matters, because although people who know I'm transitioned and may even have witnessed my transition from the beginning, struggle to see me as a man (which I respect entirely and I'm VERY careful to not push wanting to be seen/read as anything in particular, but also, people do not want to be rude, especially irl) that does not go for people who have never even seen me before the moment I walk into... say, a public bathroom. To them I cannot possibly be anything other than a man, and it's almost impossible to change their view of me as male once their brains have registered me as such. I need to conjure up pretty fucking compelling evidence to shatter that view they have of me.

This is important, because it means I cannot feasibly use female only spaces, unless someone else (who is also female) vouches for me and explains my situation for me. This is, most likely due to people being more likely to believe an unlikely explanation when it's told by someone else, because maybe I could be lying; and only someone of the same sex as me can accompany/escort me into female only spaces, obviously. But even then, there's a ton of tension around my presentation. An air of distrust, basically. The question that hangs in the air: "Is that a trans woman?" even after they've been given a thorough explanation of my situation. It's uncomfortable for everyone involved. Imagine how it goes then if I'd just show up unannounced, and without someone to vouch for me. I just get booted on sight.

Yes, I can whine about this all day, but that is NOT my point.

My point is that I'm either directly, or implicitly, unwelcome in female only spaces, despite being biologically female, because of my transitioned appearance... despite I'm not even on testosterone anymore since 2 years ago. Sure, most gnc women (whether transitioned or not) don't seem to have turned out quite as passable as me, but clearly, it happens. So let's stop pretending that it doesn't.

So with that in mind, I don't always have access to a gender neutral space. Like for example when I travel with the ferry that goes between my island and the mainland of my country, there is only men's bathrooms and women's bathrooms. No third option. That's a 3 hour boat ride, and with my coffee drinking habit, I will need to pee at some point or another while aboard that ship, alright. And no, peeing in the ocean is not an option, as squatting over the railing would be incredibly dangerous, and most likely not even remotely allowed. Granted, I don't take the ferry often, it's just the most clear example I can think of. Because it's my only means of transportation to/from the mainland, except from flying, which is incredibly expensive, less reliable and obviously an environmental hazard. So when I do have to use that ferry, I'm kinda stuck with my choices.

So then, am I better off going with the men's or women's bathroom? I am much more likely to be left alone to do my business in the men's, so even though that is not the space I want to be in, nor do I think it's "right" for me to be there, sometimes it's even a bit scary, other times even impractical if there's only urinals and no stall, and it's absolutely not validating at all - it's the only bathroom that I can realistically use, without too much trouble. And I don't want trouble. But I also hate having to put my own safety on the backburner for the perceived safety of other women, who are not actually at any higher safety risk when left alone with me.

So, onto the more general, political aspects of this issue:

Women in male only spaces may be less of an issue in regards to safety, at least for the majority of people (men) in that space, especially if the woman in question passes as male. No one gives a fuck, generally. But problem is then that she is at far greater risk than the majority of people (women) would be with a single male, in a female only space. As I think a group of women against one male is generally less risk towards the women, when compared to a group of men against a single female, which can be extremely dangerous for her. Although I've so far never been faced with any sort of violence in a male only space, let's not pretend that my presense in a male only space is somehow LESS dangerous for me, than how dangerous the presense of ONE male in a space with a whole group of women, would be for those women. Statistically and realistically, I'm at a far greater risk than they are, and no, I do not have any more choice in the matter than they do.

Thus, this kinda skewed idea of safety and choice, becomes a question of ethics, I think.

Furthermore, I'm a person of principles, and it wouldn't sit right with me that if males should never under any circumstances be allowed in female spaces, but females could be allowed in male spaces. I refuse to be a hypocrit on purpose! No, if males should never under any circumstances be allowed in female spaces, then females should also never under any circumstances be allowed in male spaces. OR, if females CAN under some special circumstances be allowed into male spaces, then males should be allowed the same in female spaces. Both of these solutions pose serious problems, which I keep seeing being brushed under the carpet a lot, and that annoys me.

But if we go with the first idea, of barring people from using opposite sex spaces altogether, then where the fuck do I pee? Should I utilise my "right" to use female spaces, despite making everyone uncomfortable and feeling threatened by my presense, as well as risking being kicked out and forced to use the equivalent male spaces anyway, which is exactly what that idea is meant to prevent - or should I completely avoid being in places which I know does not have a gender neutral bathroom, such as the ferry? Would that not be discrimination? Which is the most reasonable option here, what is the most practical, what's wrong and what's right? Do I even have a RIGHT to use female bathrooms, and if so, how do I prove it, considering my ID still says I'm male?

Trans men aren't gonna be nearly as willing to use female only spaces, and trans women definitely not eager to use male only spaces. But aside from that validation factor, I have the exact same struggle as trans people do on this particular point. Quite often they do toss and turn at which bloody bathroom to pick, not just out of validation, but because they genuinely struggle to figure out which one is the best option for them practically. Especially if they don't quite pass as either sex, and most and foremost just wanna do their business without unneccesary drama.

Also, to clarify: barring trans people from opposite sex spaces is NOT discrimination, as they never belonged there to begin with - but leaving them with no other option than to pee themselves, is. Which means that I think it's fucked up to barr them from those spaces BEFORE having solved the problem of "if they can't go there, then where?"

Perhaps I'm the only one around here who cares about males' integrity, safety and human rights. But even if so, I should not be the only one to care about gnc females' integrity, safety and rights. Male-passing females, whether transitioned or not, whether bearded or not, are still female, and if we don't want them in female only spaces, and not in male only spaces either; why? Because they "chose" to medically transition and/or dress in men's clothing?

Yeah, well, in most cases of transitioned females, they transitioned because of dysphoria, which no one chooses to have. It's a medical condition. Barring people from spaces they'd otherwise be welcomed into, due to the visual outcome of the treatment of their medical condition... is ableism. Barring a woman from a female only space she belongs in, solely because her unusual physical appearance freaks you out... is ableism. Also, simply being gnc and being viscerally uncomfortable with presenting femininely is also not a choice. And even if it was... shouldn't it be? That's why I cannot roll with that sorta solution. I dunno if it counts as a form of discrimination by definition, but it just smells a lot like it from where I sit. That it's no more right to toss me out of, or give me trouble, in a women's bathroom, than a masculine women who also passes as male but who has not medically transitioned.

That said, however, women's safety DOES matter a lot to me. Hence my reluctance to join their spaces, despite being a woman myself. I guess, what I'd want is complete sex segregation to work in my favour, but I can't promote a rule that would discriminate against me. I'm sorry, I just can't. I desire FUNCTIONAL sex segregated spaces, but realistically they cannot function. Truth is that the only womens spaces I've been allowed into since I began passing as male, are "trans inclusionary" ones that openly allow in trans women, ironically. I care about the safety of other women, and their right to have their own spaces... but not at the expense of my own rights, as a fellow woman. To say otherwise would be a crime against myself. I really wish this could be solved in some way that would work in practice, but honestly I don't think it can anytime soon. Not without some seriously tried and proven, practical and humane methods to check what sex people entering single sex spaces actually are.

That is the reality that people have to face. And personally I'd rather focus on women's rights than trans rights, but as a woman who's medically transitioning, I'd shoot my own foot no matter which one I'd choose. That's quite a dilemma.

So where my opinion stands on this right now, is basically this: I think female only spaces should only be for biological women, but I'm reluctantly okay-ish with males who pass as female utilising female only spaces, and vice versa for females in male only spaces. However, this does not feel ideal at all. It's a compromise. Ideally, I want such spaces to be entirely sex segregated, and for even people who pass as the opposite sex (like myself) to be allowed into spaces of their biological sex. My appeal here is both realistic practicality with the reality that some people really do pass as the opposite sex, as well as the safety, rights and integrity of male-passing women.

[pillarsalt]

How do you cope with loneliness? My friends are so important to me but sometimes I feel like I can't fully relate to them anymore, and I just think about how they would hate me if they knew I was GC. I have TIF and even a few TIM friends that I love and cherish very dearly because I can see that they've just fallen victim to a toxic ideology feeding their body dysmorphia and self-esteem issues. But I can't tell them how genuinely worried I am about their mental health or send them detrans testimonies that I think they would relate to because they'd think I was some hateful violent monster that I'm not. Even the content creators that bring me joy and comfort are all so fiercely anti-TERF and it just makes me sad. I don't want to hurt anyone. I even distanced from the radfem community a bit because I felt like I was becoming too hateful towards men and TIMs when I truly believe many of the ones in my life are just trying their best and fell victim to a manipulative ideology that myself and other women also fell for. It's not that I wish I was still a TRA, because I feel much more at peace internally with my identity and my belief system, but I don't know if I can say peaking has made me happier overall. I feel like I don't fit in anywhere now. Making radfem friends helped a little bit but it's not the same as being around people I've known for years and gotten close to for reasons other than this one shared belief. I don't just want to abandon them all. And it's FRUSTRATING to see people spew misinformed fearmongered nonsense and not be able to actually help them dissect those beliefs. Feeling like the only one who sees things for how they really are, but forced to play along regardless, is just so restrictive and isolating.

To be completely honest with you, I don't have a great answer. I've been lucky to have one or two close friends at a time to whom I can tell everything, including my uncensored feminism-related beliefs. I've also been (and currently am) in friend groups with multiple people who identify as trans or are dating someone who identifies as trans, and have had to keep my thoughts and opinions to myself to keep the peace. I agree it's incredibly difficult sometimes, and I know a fair few of them would instantly drop me if they knew I was a "terf". It's kind of funny because I know some of them have an inkling of what I think about the issue, but say nothing so they don't have to fight with me. If anyone asked my opinion directly, I wouldn't lie, but I admit that I lie by omission.

It is hard to watch the ones who take the medicalization route hurt themselves. My ex girlfriend and I still talk, she's a they/them nonbinary now and despite always and still being very feminine and never expressing discomfort with her body before (including posting thirst traps often,) she wants to get a mastectomy soon. It sucks because of course after having looked into this phenomenon for so long, I'm well aware of the complications and side effects that can result from a major procedure like this: phantom pain/itching, extensive and restrictive scarring, the risks of infection and necrosis, and of course the risk of regretting having an entire organ unnecessarily removed from your body later on when it's no longer fashionable to do so. It sucks that voicing even the mere suggestion that it might be a bad idea is enough to have you shunned as an apostate. I genuinely care about her and I would feel similarly if she was having any other radical cosmetic surgery like breast implants or a BBL. At the end of the day, our friends will make their own choices regardless of how we feel about it, and the only thing we can really do is be there for them in the end.

I feel similarly to you in that I don't want to hurt anyone, only to protect people and especially women from the harms that are intrinsic to trans ideology. Unfortunately, you can't help anyone who doesn't want to be helped. Sometimes though, you can play dumb and ask questions that might get them to think a little bit more about the rhetoric they're repeating. For example, I often go out for drinks with coworkers, one of whom is a she/they nonbinary woman. One time she said something about how she couldn't be a full they/them because she's still 'girly' sometimes. I said something like "doesn't it seem kind of regressive to associate how feminine you are with how much of a woman you are? what about butch lesbians?" She didn't have an answer and brushed it off, but I could see the cogs turning a bit. Playing the uninformed normie pointing out the obvious sometimes gets them to realize how twisted the logic in trans echo chambers can be. And I think sometimes expressing your disagreement with the dogma can show your friends, who know you well and know you're a good person, that, contrary to what they've been told, not everyone who disagrees with gender ideology is an evil nazi out to slaughter transwomen in the streets.

But yes, in general, it is very very isolating to hold radical feminist beliefs. I'm sorry you're going through it. One thing to remember is, there are tons of women even in your general vicinity, who like you, don't buy into gender rhetoric but aren't saying anything in order to preserve their safety and social lives. I do believe that as the world seems to be becoming more aware of the reality of the situation, more and more people will feel able to be open about their dissent, and it will become less of a fringe opinion as the flaws in the ideology are exposed. Here's hoping I guess. Keep your chin up anon.

[cheeseanonioncrisps]

So i have seen you post about TERF several times and have no idea what it means, and I tried looking it up but I feel more lost than I did, so could you break it down? Thanks

Okay, so TERF is an acronym that stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Radical feminism is, as the name suggests, a very radical (aka extreme) form of feminism based around the idea that all men oppress all women and that society has been deliberately structured to allow for the suppression of women.

It's different to the sort of feminism you're more likely to see on Tumblr— intersectional feminism— in that it doesn't really account for other forms of oppression that a person can experience. The idea, for example, that a white woman would have privilege over a black man, or that a straight woman would have privilege over a gay man.

Radical feminists focus solely on the patriarchy as the root of society's problems and believe that the future feminists should be aiming for is one where sex and gender have ceased to exist as social constructs, and nobody gives a shit what another person's genitals look like. (And if the association of gender with genitals sounds kinda transphobic to you, don't worry, I'm getting to that.)

The movement was pretty big in the 1960s and 70s, as part of second wave feminism. They got associated with a lot of very extremist movements such as political lesbianism— the idea that sexual orientation is totally a choice, and that all women are morally obligated to choose to be lesbians, because sex with 'the enemy' makes you complicit in your own oppression — and separatism— the idea that the social deck is so stacked against women that the only solution is for us all to go off and live in a man-free commune somewhere.

So, that's the Radical Feminist bit.

The Trans-Exclusionary part comes in essentially because a lot of Radical Feminist arguments rely on the idea that gender is purely dictated by how you are raised— which is in turned dictated by the gender you are assigned at birth— and that there is nothing innate about being a woman, or being a man. Trans people standing up and saying "actually I was assigned and raised this gender, but I'm really that gender" sort of throws a spanner in that, as it suggests that actually there is something about this whole gender thing that is innate after all (as well as introducing the concept of categories outside the male/female binary).

The way many Radical Feminists have reconciled this is to say that being trans isn't actually a thing. Trans women are just men who are faking their identity maliciously so as to gain access to female spaces. Trans men meanwhile, on the rare occasions that they are mentioned, are painted as poor innocent womyn (no, that's not a typo— funky ways of spelling 'women' are a really good way to spot TERFs) who have been pushed to identify as men because the patriarchy made them hate themselves.

They don't believe that trans women are women, so they exclude them from their feminism. Trans-exclusionary radical feminists.

(Interestingly, there is a smaller movement of Trans-Inclusionary Radical Feminists (TIRFs?) on Tumblr, who recognise trans people as the genders they identify as. Some of them seem to be okay, but there do seem to be issues with some of them demonising trans men as 'traitors'. So be careful.)

While most of Tumblr is pretty LGBT+ friendly, and therefore anti-TERF, a lot of TERF posts do end up getting reblogged around by accident, because they just come across as generic feminist posts. If you want to avoid doing this, then it's best to be at least slightly suspicious of any post that seems to be leaning too hard on the narrative that all women are pure, wonderful beings who lead hard but noble lives, while all men are exploitative pieces of trash who live to make womxn's (also not a typo) lives harder.

9 times out of 10, if you go to the original poster's blog and search for the tags 'terf', 'trans' or 'radfem' you'll find a ton of transphobic posts.

[wild-at-mind]

Am I marginilised for having a ‘female’ reproductive system? Are cis women even oppressed? Are cis women oppressed but radfems can’t be separate from hating trans women so the only option is ‘choice feminism’ or cis women are less oppressed? If that one, why do so many people seem to really feel that sexism is completely under talked about? Do we just ignore those people, or assume they are talking in bad faith or are just self centred, or should be actually address it? And recently there were people heavily implying that the ‘correct’, non-transphobic point of view is to nod and smile when a cis man is calling women the c word on twitter rather than object? Why was that?

I consistently get stuck on the idea that reproductive justice, the concept of growing a fetus inside your womb that will become a child, a process which you have limited control over (i.e. you cannot physically decide whether or not your egg gets fertilised, you can only take precautions to stop it and minimise the chance of it happening), is such an enormous issue and it’s incredibly associated with women even though people other than women can get pregnant and trans women can’t. The reason it is so stigmatised, to the point where proper and respectful healthcare in labour is still a serious problem we deal with in the UK despite all the medical advances that have been made, is I believe because it is associated with women. Historically cis feminists fought for reproductive rights. Fighting for proper reproductive care still needs to happen but it must be trans inclusive because no one must be excluded. I just worry that is not happening, and that it never will, and the whole thing will just become viewed as something only transphobes should care about and we will just be sitting here with our wombs hoping nothing bad happens with them. Currently the only thing I see is brands for period products or breast feeding societies making a large song and dance about being gender neutral now. It’s like they are begging the transphobes to come out and pretend to be offended that the word women wasn’t used everywhere, and come out they do! Would it kill these companies to unobtrusively gender neutralise their wording without yelling out that they are doing it? Fun fact, a lot of sanitary towels already don’t say woman anywhere on their packaging. Tampons seem slightly less gender neutral for some reason (I don’t know about menstral cups so can’t speak to them from experience but they seem pretty un-gender neutral too), so there is work to be done, but it seems like pads have done a pretty good job already without shouting from the rooftops ‘look we are gender neutral!!’

Pregnancy can be terrifying, giving birth is terrifying. There’s a reason that there are documented phobias for these things. I myself are terrified of these things. When my mum gave birth a few weeks afterwards she was given information about where to obtain help if you are experiencing trauma from giving birth, and how to make an official complaint if you feel you need to. This wasn’t because she had a particularly bad experience, it was done routinely, and waiting a few weeks was to give the people in question time to process what they had experienced. Hearing about this really disturbed me. It’s not talked about (giving birth is natural!!), and I believe there is real stigma around this issue.

I’m so confused. I don’t think my reproductive system makes me uniquely oppressed or means I must be a woman or that someone whose reproductive system is not like mine must not be a woman, but it’s clear that there are important issues here, and we can’t stop talking about them ever, we can never stop driving transphobes out but we can’t just stop talking about this because transphobes love talking about it so much! I keep seeing the general impression that if transphobes care a lot about an issue then it’s probably best avoided. I refuse to accept this!!

[radfem-aesthetic]

So like I'm in this weird middle ground grey zone where I'm not sure how I feel about terfs. On one hand I have trans friends whomst I adore and would die for, and I don't see why a woman would be excluded from feminism because she's not the right kind of woman. On the other hand you're a person with your own goals and experiences and aspirations. You have reasons for being a terf and you aren't evil. I'm not sure. How to feel. And it's difficult to express.

I don't post now, just don't want to - and just posting an answer to a question would be kinda off. but i really wanted to answer you.basically no, we're not evil. also no, we don't wish death upon people - usually it's us who get attacked. like, for real. and for what? - for "violent misgendering", which is apparently the same thing as LITERALLY MURDERING TRANS FOLKS TERFS ARE KILLING MY FRIENDS - we don't. even redkatherinee doesn't. that was satire and people didn't get it. and to be exact - she herself never threatened anyone or wished someone death, those are things that are told TO HER. won't go in details, though, but if you'd want them - just ask. we get compared to nazis - which is in its core incorrect. we don't hate people for what they don't choose - we don't hate them for dysphoria, a lot of radfems suffer from it - but we believe transitioning just isn't the way to fix it, moreover, it's harmful to health, especially of children. what we say is - if you like like girls, if you like cars instead of dolls and pants instead of skirts - that doesn't make you a boy. it literally means nothing at all, because gender roles are forced upon us like it is something necessary. the same goes for boys, who like dresses and dolls - they are not less of boys for that. we believe that the only difference is basically sex. nothing more. you can behave however you want - that doesn't change your identity. this means that transitioning is, in fact, a choice. quite harmful one (if you want facts, search for blogs of detransitioned people).then again - if you don't agree with that, we won't go punch you or wish you to die. because this is violence and violence is not okay. but apparently it's okay for trans people to go hunt us down. without any research on what we're actually saying. and hey, this pattern is male. because we don't see a lot of trans-men going full-on creepy and threatening on us. so yeah, this is kinda why we don't like interacting with them on practice. the analogy i can give you is furries andtherkins. i don't deny the feelings those people have, but they come to the wrong conclusions. being brave and liking doesn't mean you're a lion. being big, hairy and strong doesn't make you a bear. the same with transgenderism - being "feminine" doesn't make you a woman, if you're a man. the reason why we talk about it a lot nowadays is that apparently now you can't reject someone post-op just because they're trans and you're not attracted to them sexually. which is homophobic. (this is just a quick review of the points, not to take a lot of time)but they just go full insane with that whole "go choke on my girl dick" and "i'd rape a terf and murder her" (and this is LEGIT, just look it up). still, we're the threatening ones for some reason. the reason is, i believe - they just want women to shut the fuck up with their protests and opinion. nothing new, though.also censoring female anatomy is a thing again - last time i checked it was considered misogynistic. but somehow it's okay if you're a man who just wants to be oppressed real bad.kinda like that. already forgetting where i was going with this whole thing. so yeah, not evil, a human being, just like everyone else. we see trans people as equal, especially in the field of human rights and all that. but the whole gender thing is oppressive. you can read more on that yourself, if you want to, sure. i'm really happy if this clears things up a bit for you. feel free to ask anything, i'm pretty sure my explanations may be very messy. PS. I won't start a conversation with anyone but the author of the question. PPS. English isn't my first language, so forgive me if there are any mistakes.

[freedom-of-fanfic]

I have been reading and reblogging some of your posts and wanted to thank you for that detailed account. I have been out of fandom for a while, and antis really baffled me at first. But now I have a question: Could you talk some more about how current antis relate back to the LJ social justice scene and when the morph from debating fanworks to dissing people happened? Thank you!

I’m glad you’ve been enjoying this blog!

I think this reddit post does a nice job of summarizing the history of fandom and how it’s led to our current point. But I’m going to go more into how tumblr’s very structure led to a ‘race to the bottom’ sort of enacting of punishment via social justice.

Almost all of this is from personal observation, having been here since late 2010.

To get more into the actual history of it: Racefail ‘09 is the name given to the big, public 2009 debates about racism in genre fiction (published fantasy and sci-fi), which happened primarily on livejournal and private websites. (Racefail was itself the result of the rising awareness of social justice in the real world thanks to the democratization of information via the internet.) Racefail raised a couple of big questions: were non-white (and non-straight/non-cis/non-male) creators being silenced and erased in published genre fiction? And were the stories being told primarily racist/sexist/homophobic and lacking in representation for non-white/Western cultures (and LGBT+/queer/female stories)?

From everything I’ve read I feel like a lot of good came out of these talks; in particular, it greatly raised the awareness of social justice in genre fiction and fandom spaces - which had been there before, but not quite so prominent.  But one major bad came out of it: it revealed, via the shitty behavior of one member of the genre fiction community, how social justice could easily be used as a silencing tactic by applying arguments meant to dismantle power structures to individuals who may (or may not!) benefit from those power structures.

Fast-forward to 2010-2012 tumblr. LJ has undergone multiple journal purges and partial restorations, been bought out by a Russian company, and - final straw - changed the way anonymous threaded posts were handled, ending its value as a space for anon memes like kinkmemes. Fandom dispersed. A not-insignificant number of us eventually end up on tumblr, and those of us coming from LJ have brought with us a greater awareness of social justice, particularly lgbt/queer culture and feminism.

At the same time, Facebook has opened its doors to everyone instead of only allowing college students to use it. Facebook has almost single-handedly popularized the notion of making your offline life publicly available online.  Gone are the days of keeping your age, real name, and offline identity hidden; we share everything except maybe last names and exact locations.

Tumblr democratizes the fandom experience like never before. Livejournal and forums had moderators; tumblr has none.  Communities are gone - instead we have tags where people gather to talk about shared interests. People who previously felt shut out, forced to be ‘lurkers’ because they had nothing to say, could now have a blog and share the work of others via reblogging. The main way to gain social capital is by having the most followers and therefore the most widespread content.

But tumblr is a weird experience compared to other blogging sites because at the time it was the only one with a ‘reblog’ function. any one post can go absolutely viral and the people who see it beyond your immediate circle will lack the context of the rest of your blog. This means that either every single post needs to be entirely self-contained … or get wildly misunderstood. (Guess which one happens.) It also means that that the posts that spread the fastest and furthest are the short, witty ones or - you guessed it - the controversial ones. Finally, people tend to not fact-check - if something is interesting and seems believable, people reblog it uncritically. Tumblr’s dashboard structure actively encourages people to not leave their dash to look at provided external links - you’ll lose your ‘place’ on your endless-scrolling dash, and the little ‘home’ button in the corner is reminding you how many new posts have been created since you last refreshed. You don’t have time to fact-check.

Controversy without context is polarizing - without the original context, people provide their own context and agree or disagree based on a bunch of assumptions. Tumblr is a breeding ground for this. Opinions don’t get more nuanced - they get more vitriolic, more sharp and quick-witted.  And with people not bothering to fact-check or click linked information, misinformation spreads like wildfire.

The early experience of fandom on tumblr is one of widespread acceptance. Possibly because FB does this, people feel safe to share their age, sexuality, and gender on their tumblr profiles - and those identities get more and more specific as people learn more about gender identities and sexual orientations that are off the gender binary. People spread educational posts about queer/LGBT+ culture, feminist theory, and racism alongside fandom posts.  The importance of minority representation in the media is a hot topic and posts that criticize media for their lack of (or bad) representation get thousands of notes. Social justice theory - fighting the appropriation of colonized cultures by imperialists, promoting the voices of the oppressed over those of the privileged, the right to be angry because of the oppression and trauma you’ve experienced, not tone-policing people who have been hurt, and not erasing the experiences of others - are widely discussed.

A lot of good came out of this, too, but I believe a natural backlash resulted. Earnestly working to promote the voices of the least privileged and trying to avoid silencing or erasure, what started as an effort to even out the social strata gradually became a kind of reversed social strata. People who were oppressed on any axis could not be corrected by anybody of lesser oppression - it was considered to be silencing. People could not say their feelings had been hurt by a marginalized person’s word choice - that was tone policing. 

And this led to a secondary, and probably lesser conclusion: people who identified as ‘privileged’ - that is, white, cis, straight, mentally well, able-bodied, (and male) - felt guilty for all the privilege they had. and the promotion of marginalized voices over their own - the tendency to tell people, regardless of the validity of their points, that if they were privileged their voice did not matter - to escape their privilege, at least on tumblr.

I think we hit Peak Tumblr in 2012-2013-ish. Non-human and nonbinary identities proliferated. Asexuality awareness exploded, as did other lesser-known sexualities and paraphilias.  People wondered what it meant to be trans in a world with no gender binary. People self-diagnosed severe mental illnesses.  And this unto itself wasn’t a bad thing!   Probably many people learned a lot about themselves from the openness and acceptance.

However: there’s no way to know how much of this was from people self-discovering and how much was from people who realized that unless they had some axis of oppression they could point to they could be silenced.  And people were extremely open about these identities as well: despite all of the talk about social awareness, interactions on tumblr suggested that most people still assumed that everyone else was white, cis, straight, able-bodied and mentally well (and therefore completely unaware of social issues and in need of education). And due to how tumblr’s reblogging system could separate posts entirely from the context of the original poster’s blog and personal details, this assumption happened a lot!

Whatever the actual numbers of people who were self-discovering versus self-deluding, this extreme acceptance got its own natural backlash. It wasn’t possible for everyone on tumblr to be oppressed, but everyone on tumblr seemed to be finding some way to be marginalized - they weren’t cis, they were ‘a demigirl’. They weren’t straight, they were ‘gray asexual’.  There had to be some way to distinguish the real marginalized people from the fakers.*

Enter gatekeeping - which seems reasonable enough at first, given the sheer number of people who are claiming to be part of the marginalized club. People start making fun of ‘transtrenders’ and ‘starselves’ and say ‘heteroromantic demisexuals’ are ‘just normal’. People call one another ‘cishet’ specifically to erase their gender identity/sexual orientation.

This environment makes tumblr ripe for radfems, who greatly benefit from people putting limits on what identities other people can have. And radfems feed the gatekeeping mentality, leading to more and more policing of one another on tumblr instead of acceptance.  Instead of trusting others to be honest about their gender identity, sexual orientation, race or mental health, people increasingly decide the identity and experiences of others based on whether or not they say and do the right things.  Conversely, if you say or do the wrong things you are ostracized and your identity is erased using the reverse social strata of tumblr: ’cishet’ becomes shorthand for ‘ignorant asshole’ - and ignorant assholes are not to be listened to.

One no longer has to identify wrongly to have the wrong identity to be worth listening to. One only has to do the wrong thing.

So how does this tie back to debating fanworks vs dissing people?  Well: tumblr isn’t just the home of social justice. It’s also the home of fandom, and these two spaces heavily overlap.

Like our genre fiction friend that I mentioned back at the beginning of this long-ass post, tumblr had already begun - with the best of intentions - to silence people for having the wrong level of marginalization.  And when radfems and gatekeepers entered the scene, one’s level of marginalization became a function of how you behaved.  Now you had to behave right to have the right to be listened to - and fanworks, far from being the exception, are the rule for determining if people behave ‘right’ in fandom spaces.

In other words: debating fanworks/fan opinions and dissing people have become the same thing.  If a fanwork is for the wrong pairing, that makes a person a bad person.  And bad people are only able to create bad fanworks.

This attitude is how you get things like ‘if you ship [x] you’re straight’ and ‘oh, you ship [x], your opinion on this unrelated social justice issue is invalid’ or ‘i’m not surprised to find that this person is [x]-phobic, they created problematic fanworks.’

And that’s where we’re at today.

Man this is much. I’m sorry for your eyes.

*And in case it isn’t obvious, I think policing sexual orientations and gender identities is nonsense - demigirls and gray-ace people count as much as everyone else.

[rabbitindisguise]

The above confuses actual privilege with conditional privilege. Bi, pan, ply, omni and other m-spec folks often can "pass" in public as "str8" but if as soon as they mention a previous partner they're suddenly dealing with monosexism, that's not privilege. Similarly, if a trans man is treated as a cis man, that's not privilege, because it's conditional on no one knowing that he's trans.

Further, many of the things people cite as privilege are things that should be afforded everyone. Not being disrespected in public is not a bad thing we should be avoiding or shaming people for experiencing. That's a good thing. Respect is what we're striving for with any gender based activism. In this case equality is more important than equity. That means giving respect to women, rather than taking something away from men to even things out.

The idea that feminism relies on destroying men, masculinity, or manhood because it's inherently violent is radfem rhetoric and the critical basis for TERFs and TIRFs. There is nothing to be gained from taking stuff from men as a punishment for systematic sexism, especially as that frequently targets marginalized men, as those are the only men within the reach of women's systemic power. Or people that aren't even men (trans women, nb people, intersex folks) in the name of "fighting the good fight against men" because otherwise they wouldn't be satisfied by getting to actually enact the full spectrum of violent oppression that happens against women against another person.

And dismantling radfem ideology is actually really important and illustrates the points of OP well, because many trans men exposed to feminism tend to feel like they take up too much space in many scenarios that have a primary underlying problem of women not feeling able to speak, rather than anything they've personally done. Rather, the kind of speaking is important- active listening, endorsing points that were used to make his own point, opening up the floor for women, pointing out women who got looked over, etc- rather than pressuring a trans man to simply speak less and less until he doesn't feel comfortable speaking in the space at all.

This has collectively led to many trans men, when confronted with the idea of transmisandry, to say it's "not that bad." They could be dealing with a lot of shit specific to being a trans man rather than just being trans that's impossible to understand through the lens of transphobia only, but it's not "what trans women go through" so it's not important. Nevermind that every marginalized group deserves its own community language to understand how oppression impacts them in particular.

And another important point: as a trans man in those situations, I generally choose against my own safety and shoot down those jokes at the expense of my social capital. It has frequently led to me being almost outed against my will again. I'm not honestly sure trans men are being sexist when they do these things, even if that's the ultimate effect (sexism as bigotry vs sexism as systematic oppression). I'd compare it more to a gay man panicking a harshly rejecting a woman, maybe even using sexist stereotypes to do so, out of fear of being outed. That's not to handwave the effect (sexism == bad, in all cases, obviously). But to point out the cause will continue to perpetuate the action, even if a trans man educates himself voluntarily and does feminist actions otherwise . . . when given the choice. "Choosing to be the man you want to be" is great and it helps, because gender roles are still imposed on society, but ultimately it doesn't dissipate the choices trans men have to make due to transmisandry.

Yeah you can unfollow me block me or whatever the fuck but im not with that "trans men have male privilege" shit