#i don't even hate steven universe

[queernobi]

The thing about the Diamonds in Steven Universe is that they really had the potential to be extremely compelling and interesting villains, and then they just. Weren't.

They had a few episodes where they got to be intimidating and badass genocidal dictators, and then they were just sad but cringy aunts whose genocidal past just. Doesn't matter, I guess?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even necessarily against a story where there's inflated stakes like "my family is committing genocide" and there being a "redemption" that is less about the actually redeeming the character and more about progressing another character or completing that other character's arc (a la Darth Vader with Luke Skywalker), but like. You have to then try to make the stakes FEEL personal. And the Crewniverse really doesn't do that with the Diamonds.

I don't end up caring that Steven and the Diamonds are technically family because we get 145 episodes of the series where we understand them as genocidal dictators who are bent on destroying the planet, then 5 episodes dealing just with the fact the Steven's mom was actually a Diamond without thinking about the family tree, and THEN we only get 5 episodes acknowledging that, oh yeah, I guess the Diamonds are family too, so we have to help them settle their family issues!

If we take the example of Star Wars, we have a whole movie to reckon with the revelation that Darth Vader is Luke's father, and multiple (sometimes even heart-wrenching) moments with Luke grappling with this, from confronting Obi-Wan's ghost, to confronting Yoda, to even confronting Darth Vader himself. And even when other things are taking the focus, like rescuing Han or taking out Storm Troopers on Endor, it still figures heavily in the background, that Darth Vader is Luke's father, and nothing about this conflict can be the same for him (Luke).

We don't really get a lot of time to think about it with the Diamonds. It's just, "Oh yeah, these people suck," for 99% of the show, then suddenly it switches gears to be like, "no wait, but they're my FAMILY!!!!" and it never really has a chance to breathe or settle with the audience.

And no, this is not something that can be blamed on the show getting cancelled, because the redemption STILL could have had a lot of weight by, you know...letting the Diamonds actually get destroyed in the end! But of course that was never going to happen, so 🤷🏻

[thousandyearphantombunker]

"We want more morally grey/flawed female characters"

You bitches can't handle APPLE WHITE!

like people keep saying "you couldn't even handle rose quartz" but this is even more pathetic to me. How can y'all make this kid into a monster?

[bluelem0ns]

LOVE YOUR DRAWINGS 🤍

Bellow with Pink interacting with her as their daughter.. something sweet (can’t take more pain w/ those three)

THANK YOU!!

ive always wondered how this conversation went

[pinbones]

Honestly half the time the "watch something more complicated than cartoons" crowd don't even understand cartoons. When kids' shows are a bit much for you, you don't really get to be sniffy about what people prefer to watch while they eat takeout

Steven Universe did not show an empire being defeated with the power of friendship & empathy and its fascist leaders being accepted as family. It ended with an unstable biological(?) power structure being battled violently & its core constructs conclusively disproven, all its leaders removed from power and replaced, and them spending the rest of their days in basically servitude fixing what they did while being shunned by Steven. And SU Future wasn't about depression being offensively cured with hugs, it was about a teenager under massive responsibility and trauma feeling like he was losing his support network and becoming magically and mentally unstable, and ended with acceptance and him finally stepping away from his roles & heritage to find himself.

Half of the people still mad at Steven Universe can't even place its core themes and blatant messages. You didn't watch the show, you were too busy reblogging dipshit fascism accusations against its Jewish creator and drawing the lesbians in watercolours

[elwolfen]

God... Steven Universe is so good

[batemanofficial]

me refraining from going on a tirade about how "freeze" and "fawn" aren't parasympathetic nerve responses every time i see that poll

[calypsolemon]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on the pink being overcooked and the bizarre idea of her that she was supposed to come out not as pink or red but white

ehh? I don't think any of that makes any sense. For one, why would White create a clone of herself like that, and could she even? It seems to me from the way she describes Pink and the other diamonds, that she views them as something like impurities or aspects she purged from herself, and while that's not entirely the case, I think it helps explain how gem production works in a "biological" sense. She also describes stretching her essence thin enough to control like, what, six? gems, as something she doesn't like to do, which tells me it's really something that isn't good for her to maintain for too long. So I assume to create another diamond of pure, unfiltered White light, would be to essentially put all of herself into another gem. And I don't see why she would bother to do any of that.

I also just think with how ableist gem society is, even if Pink was a red diamond that came out weird or something, I don't think she would have been allowed or expected to actually rule a colony or act as a diamond period. Gem society shatters gems that are born unable to fullfill their purpose. Especially back in Pink's time, when resources seemed abundant. White is way too much of a perfectionist control freak to let something like that pass imo.

No, really what makes the most sense to me, is that White created all the diamonds (and potentially, all of gem society) in an attempt to rid herself of emotions and personality quirks that she deemed imperfect, or hindering her in some way. All of them turned out exactly as intended, personality flaws and all, and so that White can control these "flaws" externally by discipline and force, rather than deal with them internally as part of her. This both aligns with what she says on the subject, and thematically coheres with the rest of the story, as it's the exact opposite purpose for Rose having Steven.

[usagifuyusummer]

Is this what you meant @jjimene123, on the Timmy Turner and Pink Diamond parallels lmao?

Been thinking abt this quote from end of an era!! It makes me THINK

[captainsweet]

I'm confused how me writing some request somehow ended up with most of the cast being dictators, a literal war happening, literal slavery and tons of racism, and so many other sucky things. But then again, they did request it to be Steven Universe based, so... What else do you expect.

[rottmnt-residuum]

Hi, I've read the Residuum comic, and I think the characterization of the boys is really good. I was wondering if you have any tips on how to write them? Especially Mikey, please.

I'd actually recommend re-watching the show with one character in mind. All my notes on the turtles come from doing separate re-watches for each of them. The key is to ONLY watch the character you are focusing on.

In the end, you'll probably be happier with your own personal interpretation. As we are with ours lol

TL;DR

Massive post under the cut

To preface: we'll be contrasting (this Mikey) against the fandoms version of Mikey, as our interpretation is very different. Don't worry if you prefer the fandom version, there's nothing… wrong per se with writing him this way. We just find him flat and uninteresting. (Main author: not me, I just hate him, lol).

Every reader or fan comes into a story with their own biases and experiences. A ton of our view of Mikey is based on how our siblings acted. We see Mikey as the young sibling that got preferential treatment from the whole family, simply due to being the youngest, but is now aging out of the privilege. Which all youngest siblings do at some point or another.

The fandoms version of Mikey is empathetic, naive, vulnerable, co-dependent and quite often a door mat who cries at the drop of a hat. And as much as the fandom like to say that people love him… when this particular character archetype is in other media, they seem to attract the most criticism. Mable pines, Bolin from Korra, people rag on Aang all the fucking time, and Steven Universe is a whole other bag. These characters don't deserve it, and yet it happens anyway.

To flatten Mikey to simply 'the baby' is a disservice. We don't see or write Mikey as the fandom “baby” version (cinnamon roll uwu). Part of this comes from having multiple siblings, so we interpret the times when Mikey does the puppy dog eyes as typical younger sibling bullshit, mostly by the way that the other turtles rarely react to it, if at all.

The other turtles traits can also get projected onto Mikey. Mikey being the fandom therapist is in the same category as this. He isn't a therapist, he's a psychology nerd who likes to psychoanalyze people and meddle in their relationships. (Donnie and Shelldons relationship, Splinter and Draxums...) he's not trying to resolve your emotional issues. Of the turtles, the character that cares the most about people's feelings is Raph. And Leo is more of a consoler than Mikey ever is. It flattens all the turtle's characterizations when you start doing this because you are ripping out parts that are integral to another characters' complexity.

Co-author has told me that they've seen people become confused when going into the show after only reading fan fiction or coming from the movie. They see his characterization as inconsistent and become upset when their view of him is contradicted. This also happens when a fandomized version of him becomes the primary characterization that they use. Sometimes when this disconnect happens (or if they just don't like the character), Mikey characterization is swung in the complete opposite direction.

They make him manipulative and abusive, or someone who is hyper violent and avoids being held accountable for anything. This is an uncharitable interpretation of him and can come off as pretty racist depending on the circumstances. (like if someone considers the turtles black or not)

Every version of Mikey is a shithead (affectionate), even this one. Especially this one, really. When Mikey not doing the "baby schtick" hes mean. If you pay attention to what he's saying, and just not his tone of voice, he's consistently saying pretty mean or condescending stuff. (You could take this as simply naïveté, but he still says mean shit pretty often regardless)

The times he does say genuinely nice stuff the turtles don't exactly expect it from him, at least, in the early season. And while he is mean, and seems to find saying mean things to be funny, Mikey isn't cruel. Nor will he ever be.

This shit-headery behavior is found in both 2003 and 18 Mikey. They have a degree of social intelligence that lets them use it to annoy people into doing what they want. 18 just has the advantage of being baby faced and having better tonal control. He's good at using people's perception of him to get what he wants.

Let Mikey have his problematic traits, but don't overexaggerate them. He doesn't revel in fooling people. He loves doing character bits, and the baby faced one just happens to be one of them. However, to infantilize or to deem him incompetent is to piss him off, he wants to be viewed as a competent part of the team and competent as an individual. He's not insecure about being young, he just doesn't want to be treated like he can't do anything.

Mikey above all is an optimistic character, he sees the brighter side quite often and is conscious of the harm his actions have on people. Mostly after the fact, but he consistently attempts to rectify the harm he has personally done to peoples lives. (Todd, Bullhop, Draxum). Food and shelter seems to be a thing that he considers to be a right. He doesn't cross a boundary twice once he learns of it, and he never pushes people too far (if he likes you, that is. if he doesn't know you or doesn't like you, he doesn't give a singular shit. But that is standard to most people.). He doesn't care about people's stuff, though. He breaks things all the time.

Mikey understands boundaries, but he doesn't automatically recognize them. He needs them to verbalized or for there to be a very obvious reaction to the boundary being crossed (unfortunately, for Todd and Donnie). Sometimes people mess up (esp. younger people), and it can take a while for teens to learn where boundary is, but he fully respects the boundaries he does know about. He doesn't act petulant when he's told about boundary, he apologizes, accepts it, and moves on. He doesn't dwell.

Mikey doesn't hold on to distressing emotions. He bounces between emotions quickly, but isn't effected in the long run. One thing Iv'e seen people often conflate is the difference between sensitive and vulnerable. Mikey is sensitive, but I have never seen him vulnerable to others. To be sensitive is to be easily influenced by the current situation. To be vulnerable is to hold that influence for a long time. Characters can have one, both, or neither of these traits. But Mikey is not vulnerable. It is the difference between compressing memory foam and a piece of metal until they deform. One will pop back, the other does not.

Those who are vulnerable but not sensitive will take longer to effect, but once you do, they will hold on to that emotion for a very long time. The vulnerable, are grudge holders. (leo). But like I've said, Mikey bounces back. What a character does has an effect on his emotions, but it doesn't make a lasting impression.

Forgiveness is another thing people like to push on him. It is not that Mikey forgives people easily, it's just that he doesn't hold grudges. He neither forgives nor forgets, but he does not ruminate. He's generally affable, first impressions seem to be a big part of how he views people. He is idealistic, and doesn't assume people are unchanging and/or evil, but he's not a mark.

Mikey isn't so much as naive or overly trusting… it's just that he's inexperienced. He doesn't get fooled by anyone in the series except meat sweats, and that's because Meatsweats is on Todd drugs. Mikey just didn't notice when he started faking. He's not… actually all that aware of people's emotional states, passively. He has to tune in to notice things like that.

Mikey isn't someone who really tries to regulate others emotions, either. The fandom like to make Mikey afraid of his brothers fighting and others being upset, but Mikey doesn't actually care. The most distressed we ever see him in a fight is in the movie, and he's not SCARED, he's just concerned (and then alarmed once it turned physical). If anything, outside extenuating circumstances (like the movie), Mikey actually seems to find their fights annoying.

(Mikey actually seems to have a pretty short fuse, but his bounciness doesn't really let it linger very long, lmao)

(One pet peeve of fandom Mikey is the constant crying, crying at fights, crying at insults, crying for no reason all the time. Sure, he tears up when he gets emotional, but when Mikey is genuinely crying It's when he's desperate, like when he's hungry, or when he's trying to save Leo from certain doom. Same thing, really.)

Mikey respects no one (we love him for this). He admires people, he admires his family: April, the turtles, his dad, Lou Jitsu. He admires Rupert Swaggert, but he respects none of them. No one is sacrosanct to the Mikey.

Above all, the way we write characters is to give them a past that informs how they act now. We view Mikey and the other turtles as teenagers that were kids, and that will be adults. Yes they all have “problematic” traits, but 1) good characters need flaws, and controversial traits are one of the best to use, and 2) they're teenagers, don't expect adult behaviors from them, also don't expect them to be kids. They're minors, not toddlers.

This is getting as long enough as it is, so we'll stop here, but this is a very broad overview of how we characterize him. There's a lot we didn't cover here, but if we even started on hobbies, or the real minutia of his quirks and ticks, or even how he feels about other specific characters... we'd be here all day. So I hope this is good enough lol

If there was something you wanted to know in particular, you'll need to get specific. Feel free to ask again ahahh

[tooies]

i really don't understand how killing stalking fans can even sleep at night knowing that every single character from steven universe hates them

[peek-a-boo-rikki]

so I'm NOT crazy for liking SU during its prime!

people discovering steven universe in 2023 are always like "this show is really good why the hell were yall so weird about it"

[animentality]

while I try to be compassionate to teens online, because I know they're just kids and they're still learning, and even if they don't learn today, they will probably learn some day, I gotta say this... sometimes...

even I wasn't that fucking stupid as a teen.

I never sent anon hate (still fucking haven't, by the way, y'all are so inferior to me if you have), I didn't spend my fucking time on 4chan or reddit being an incel or flirting with neo Nazism, I never doxxed anyone or encouraged other people to harass or threaten people I didn't like.

I didn't bully people for drawing Steven universe art I didn't like, I never tried canceling people or making up fake rumors about how xkitguy was a pedophile, I didn't go around accusing people of being pedophiles with no evidence.

I never harassed creators online or sent death threats because someone doesn't like my favorite character and I actually unsubscribed and forever ignored content creators I found out were fucking pedophiles rather than doubling down.

Some of y'all are just dumb and mean and it has a little to do with your age, but also has to do with you being an asshole.

being a teen is not a catch all excuse.

you're not fucking 6.

you do know right from wrong at the ripe old age of 17.

you can be a piece of shit as a teen, and I can judge you despite being an adult, because I know I wasn't like that when I was a teen.

and even if I was, I can still say, knock it off.

you bullying little shits.

[oatmealaddiction]

Rant time, but like, people who complain about the diamonds in Steven Universe getting "redeemed" and "facing no consequences" like, why did you ever think the diamonds getting destroyed was on the table as an option? Why did everyone think the show was going to end with Steven fighting and killing the diamonds, or the universe dolling out some Hayes Code Karma Violence like a giant rock falling on them at the last second? Like I guess I understand the criticism in theory that Steven Universe's metaphor for the diamonds as toxic family members falls apart when you consider they're crimes as space monarchs doing a colonialism, but Steven isn't The Avatar. At no point in the show does he even have the power to doll out the punishment you guys want.

Steven *does* try to fight the diamonds, and he gets his ass kicked. He gets smashed under his own shield and knocked out. His mom forms an entire army to fight them and LOSES and has almost all of her friends corrupted by them. The Diamonds are bigger, badder and stronger than The Crystal Gems (kind of like how adults are bigger and stronger than children.) So instead, he reveals his identity as Pink and the Diamonds immediately stop trying to kill him and the show instead pivots to be about political diplomacy. He doesn't like the diamonds, by the time Future rolls around we find out that he hates them and has private thoughts about killing them even now that that they don't pose any threat. But during the show he's powerless and so instead, talking to them and trying to change their mind is just a practical option because fighting hasn't worked. Because in the real world, there are times you will be outmatched and violence won't be the answer—even if the people hurting you probably do deserve violence.

And the diamonds aren't "redeemed," they just change their mind. They just decide that they want to keep Pink in their lives, so they begin to take accountability and undo the damage that they caused with their war, and presumably will spend the next thousands of years of their lives dismantling their own empire. And again, Steven Universe Future discusses the discomfort and the downside of this approach, that even if it's better and harm is actively being undone, the diamonds can't resolve all the harm they've done and Steven largely doesn't feel like he's gotten justice for what they did to him and his mother—much less the universe. So I don't get where anyone gets off saying this story is irresponsible or saying you should just forgive bad people. I don't see that anywhere in the story. The theme of Universe has always been the necessity of change, and so it makes sense that the villains aren't forgiven or revealed to be good people—but that they just change.

[rosaq]

how I see pearlrose (it's one of my favorite ships and I promise this isn't hate):

rose and pearl were in love with each other but pearl wasn't in love with pink diamond, she was only in love with rose quartz. so pearl was in love with the parts of pink diamond that became more predominant when she turned into rose + that fed into the fantasy they created for themselves

see how in the gif below pearl sings "we became our fantasy" when pink turns into rose quartz? and her demeanor immediately changes when pink turns into rose. her smile widens and both of them hug each other and start holding hands + pearl starts blushing

I think this is intentional — just like in "a single pale rose" pearl and rose hug and hold hands but when rose turns into pink diamond, the physical intimacy stops. that's not to say they're uncomfortable with each other, only that rose quartz and pearl seem far closer and intimate. the very first time we see pearl talk to pink she still calls her "my diamond" (which is a title used with superiors) even though this scene takes place near the end of the war and pearl has been a rebel for more than one thousand years

now let's get into the batman and alfred/robin allegory:

Rebecca and Ian, while discussing Rose’s “Batcave,” brought up the scene when Pearl couldn’t talk about Rose’s full details during “Rose’s Scabbard.” Incidentally, yes, Pearl is Alfred if Alfred was in love with Batman. It’s very important to note that we’re talking about Batman here, NOT Bruce Wayne. She loves BATMAN. 

— Steven Universe Podcast, Volume 3, Episode 1

Rose plays Batman on the ground. Pearl is Robin (and Alfred).

— Steven Universe: End of an Era, page 77

so pink diamond = bruce wayne and rose quartz = batman; pearl = alfred and rebel pearl = robin. rebecca and ian seem to want to make it clear that pearl was only in love with rose (batman). and pearl also seems to see herself as two separate people: the servant and the rebel

it makes a lot of sense for pearl and rose to create an escapist fantasy for themselves on earth as a way to get away from their awful realities. the idea that their lives on homeworld were someone else's lives was something they both took comfort in

But I've been... imagining things, even when you haven't asked me to. I imagined that I ran away and met you here on Earth, a Rose Quartz. And I'm not yours, but, I make you so happy anyway! Isn't that ridiculous?! Tell me to stop! 

Rose: Please don't ever stop! 

—Pearl, Now We’re Only Falling Apart

and that was the fantasy: pearl was a rebel who ran away and met rose on earth. rose was made on earth. pearl's presence makes rose happy even though she doesn't belong to rose.

rose is delighted when pearl shares this with her bc she loves this fantasy just as much as pearl does (and also bc it made her realize that other gems, like pearl and garnet, want to escape homeworld. she realizes that she wants to fight for them). but obviously this fantasy is incompatible with their actual lives

later on pearl would also get caught up in the idea of being rose's knight. she romanticized the idea of putting rose above all else, even herself; she romanticized the idea of having a princess to save. so she put rose on a pedestal, not because rose was a diamond, but because of this fantasy she created for their relationship

This is an Ancient Sky Arena, Connie, where some of the first battles for Earth took place. It was here that I became familiar with the human concept of being a knight, completely dedicated to a person and a cause.

—Pearl, Sworn to the Sword

in this fantasy rose quartz can't be pink diamond. rose loathed herself so this suited her just fine: she wanted to be the rose quartz from this fantasy, the gem who was made on earth and was a compassionate leader and healed instead of destroying. she thinks pearl is right to love only rose quartz bc she thinks pink diamond is unlovable

let's take a look at the movie: at first amethyst and steven think rose quartz is the solution to getting pearl's memories back. so amethyst shape shifts into rose and sings for pearl, but pearl won't stop looking at greg throughout the entire scene. then they understand that they don't need rose to be around, they need greg to disappear. so steven fuses with greg and greg disappears into the fusion, allowing pearl to finally get her memories back. greg is pink and steg is rose. when greg (pink) disappears, pearl manages to look beyond her assigned duty

it's also worth noting that pearl wasn't the only one putting rose on a pedestal. rose put everyone around her on a pedestal, including pearl, because she thought they were all so much better than she could ever be. so while pearl saw rose as a sort of princess to be saved/protected, rose saw pearl as a superior and as someone who was so much better than herself

The fact that Rose says "my Pearl" to Pearl... A lot of people wonder, "oh, she belonged to Rose". No one calls their Pearl my Pearl, people only say that to their superiors. So there's actually a lot more going on in that scene.

—Rebecca Sugar, The Truth About Rose Quartz

but this whole fantasy thing was very unhealthy and meant they never dealt with how their actual roles in gem society affected their relationship. they wanted to sweep all the ugly parts under the rug and pretend it didn't exist—and it was so easy because only the two of them knew the truth and they were all too happy to feed into each other's fantasies. it created a communication barrier between them that made it extremely difficult for them to communicate and understand each other's low self worth and insecurities. pink's final order to pearl was a way to keep the fantasy going post-war which pretty much doomed them bc pearl was unable to talk about anything she went through and rose never opened up to anyone about her past. but they needed to talk about it to heal and move forward

I believe pearlrose is supposed to parallel rupphire in this sense: both are interclass gem relationships, but rupphire never ignored how their roles in gem society affected their relationship; so much so that by the end of the show garnet's main theme becomes "the truth" while pearlrose's main theme remains "the fantasy"

this fantasy only starts to fall apart when pearl manages to tell steven the truth about pink diamond: pearl finally has to confront the fact that rose quartz and pink diamond were the same person. by letting the fantasy go, pearl was able to address the unhealthy aspects of their relationship and understand her own repressed feelings + rose's struggles. only then is pearl able to start healing from everything that happened

[critical-espurr]

Hello, hi, I've decided I have more to say on this one, hope you don't mind.

Another reason it's incredibly difficult to take this stance from Lily seriously is that, if someone had a similar sort of deeply emotionally moving response she's describing here but it was due to an anime, manga, JRPG etc., she'd call them a weeb and imply they're a pervert of some sort. She probably does think that art can influence and deeply move people, but only the (few and far between) pieces of art that she personally has any respect for. As we know, she's disturbingly self-centered and self-absorbed like that. Rules for thee, not for she.

One of the pieces of fiction that not only still deeply emotionally moves me to this day but made me realize just how I had been harmed and wronged in the past is the anime she keeps mischaracterizing as a substanceless, violent abusefest between lesbians (not because she's actually seen it, mind -- she's super lying about that and I believe the old gossip blog has proof of that somewhere, proof I saw when Lily herself INITIALLY POSTED IT -- but because it inspired cartoons she doesn't like and that makes her incredibly mad for some reason.) We all know she wouldn't approach this the same way she does for the books that have supposedly moved her (and I say supposedly because, as mentioned by our good Gallade friend here, she's bragged about how she hasn't read anything for a time period that roughly makes up half of her total life so far.)

this is a deeply ironic point to make from the woman who, not that long ago, was bragging about never reading anything in the last 15 years. especifically because she thought everything sucked anyway.

or about how she never reads fanfiction outside of a very limited scope.

or how she claims artists wanting credit for their work are divas that should be doxxed and mocked for eternity.

or how they don't deserve any recognition at all as long LO deems they don't because she stole their work on a arbitrary timeframe.

because LO just has that much respect for art, right?