#i can't accept what they did to luke and to anakin story

[galactic-rhea]

I think that despite aaaaaaall the very obvious problems about the whole Tuskens plot in AOTC (that also come from IRL bias); something people seem to be hung at is about Padmé's romance being unbelieveable after Anakin confesses the massacre to her; and like I can understand why, since not everyone thinks too hard about her character, but I do, and it's just kind of annoying to have most people saying it was character assasination for and that she shouldn't have known about the fact. BUT! I think it shows quite a lot of deepness and the dynamic about their relationship.

Is a very, very morally gray moment of Padmé, I would say is one of the most charged moments for her, her response is "To be angry is to be human"; Padmé had been, since she was presented, going through ungodly amounts of stress, her people was dying and being taken to camps when she was 14, at the start of AOTC one of her handmaids died in front of her eyes, and through none of these moments she has been able to express much more than some veiled, some composed, some acceptable, anger, I don't believe this to be coincidencce.

Padmé pretty much represents the justice and the good ideals of the Republic, she's pretty much a source of light in the story; this isn't to say she can't do wrong, or that she isn't flawed. She's giving Anakin a chance to do better, even though isn't within her right to decide so, but she's also kind of the only character that does seem to understand Anakin the best, almost beat for beat and she knows he's coming from a very very bad place, with a terrible childhood, she knows how he was when he was nine, she knows of her past.

She isn't oblivious or naive about how terrible Anakin's actiones were, she's just aware of his reasons, she's just able to sympathize with him, she's able to see he feels inmense guilt, and she also is sure he can still be able to do better (and he did! As an audience we know he was capable of much better and of being a force of good very needed. His fall doesn't undo the fact Anakin did went through great lengths to help others) Her reaction, honestly, just puts her in league with Luke imo. "Hey, that's terrible, awful, beyond , but you know, I still love you, because you're still a person I care about. You can do better."

But it also shows how her love is, in many ways, similar to Anakin's, in the sense that's very encompasing, very loyal, very "Follow you to hell and back", she's able to offer him the sympathy and the belief of his ultimate good nature that she wouldn't offer to others (she fell in love with him before going to Tatooine). It can be see as hypocritical, but she's also kind of right, she's proven right. She's still shocked and heartbroken in ROTS because the situation was much more different, because there wasn't any reason for her to believe he would commit something like that again after he clearly expresses so much guilt and trauma over it.

And, when it comens to the relationship with Anakin, I think it makes some senses; it means there is honestity between them, he confessed to her one of the most evil deeds he had commited yet, there's something about it that makes all of Anakin's others relationships different: Obi-Wan and Ahsoka didn't know about this In Anakin's POV, is probable that any kind of love or appreciation Obi-Wan and Ahsoka showed him came with a layer of guilt and distrust because he thinks they don't really know him, probably thinks they would hate him or think he deserves punishment.

And yeah, like, morally talking, he should've gone to jail or at least have a trial or something, but like, what exactly would that manage, or fix in your little fantasy-sci-fi movies? But you know who knew and still loved him? Padmé and Palpatine. In one had, you have Padmé who truly, does love him and believes in his ultimate capacity for goodness. On the other...

So yeah, I think knowing of what he's capable is actually a very integral part of the anidala relationship, and it does give Padmé some deepness you wouldn't usually see in other female characters, and the narrative does tell you she was kind of right.

Because, if I'm honest with you, Padmé and Anakin marrying with Anakin keeping the secret of murdering a whole village, wouldn't do it for me, would actually make me not like or not care for the relationship at all, at least not in their 'romance' sense, because it would be just kind of a Blue Beard, kind of your average "Woman finds out Her Wonderful husband/boyfriend is secretly a Serial Murdered and keeps it hidden for her". That, and also that Anakin is actually very honest, maybe a bit too honest for his own good, when it comes to Padmé and Palpatine, he spills at the edges all the time.

It's meaningful, for them both, that they met each other when they were under extremelly bad circumstances, she knew him as a literal child slave that risked his life to save strangers, and he knew her first as a servant, a handmaid, and then as a queen. And then she knows of his crimes, and he knows he can be fully honest with her, and now he knows how she felt about being a queen, about being a politician, things she never says to anyone else. They're kinda in equal footing and that's why it's meaningfull, as inmoral and messy and kinda selfish it can be.

But yeah, yeah, I ramble a lot, sorry this is very very messy and idk kind of badly written i just wrote as it came to me,I was sleepy and saw yet another youtuber trying to explain why padmé's character was assasinated or something. Because when it comes to her is a flaw and her being irrational, but when it comes to Luke is all encompassing goodness and proof of undying love, siiigh.

[writerbuddha]

This is gonna get a bit negative, but I don't understand how some say that they love the George Lucas movies but yet the Jedi were wrong and forbid love and family. Like how???

It's quite complex, Anon...

This has its origins in the way how fans reacted to Episodes I, II and III. When they did not get the young Darth Vader they imagined for themselves, they started to insist, the reason why Anakin Skywalker is nothing what they imagined, is because George Lucas cannot write and/or direct and Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen are terrible actors and they can't portray the character in the correct way. This resulted in that the idea, the story that you can derive from the actual movies is not the real story, embedded itself into popular culture, and it mutated into the idea that you have to "find out" the "real" story behind the fall of Anakin Skywalker.

This idea, "the Jedi were wrong and forbid love and family" is just the latest mutation of this phenomenon, and it fits neatly into the "good idea, bad execution" narrative fans perpetuate, but most importantly: some fans are more comfortable with declaring compassion being unconditional love and attachment as selfish grasping as nonsense and even unhealthy and malicious, than to accept, Star Wars is, in fact, challenging them to think about how they relate to their loved ones. So it makes perfect sense that they insist on this narrative. In addition, there is this cultural notion that you have this list of "must have" things that you need to be content and happy. Just look at Legends stories: they couldn't rest until Luke Skywalker got laid and ended up in a marriage with kids, because, "duh, that's how normal people are" and anything that deviates from that must be in need of a reformer, someone who enlightens/fixes/liberates them. When you add the even more central notion, that children "belong" to their parents because they "made them" and a "truly loving parent would never bear to be without their children" and the idea that when parents are making decisions for their children is somehow letting the children to decide for themselves, you end up with "the Jedi were wrong and forbid love and family" very quickly. And the biggest issue in the Star Wars fandom is that fans are so caught up in fanon that they're no longer able to tell the difference between what is actually in the movies and what they more or less agreed to be in the movies.

This reaches a new level when people are trying to impose this kind of narrative because they want one of the most popular stories of the globe to affirm their values and ideas and way of life, I wrote this about in detail here:

[jedi-enthusiast]

Castlevania and Non-Attachment, Part Five: Dracula and His Revenge

Now, finally, we're onto the main antagonist of the show---Vlad Dracula Tepes.

Dracula loses his wife, Lisa, and because of this he sentences all of humanity to death---innocents, children, people that had nothing to do with any of it, every single human. He can't let her go and accept that she's dead, so he decide to take revenge on all of humanity for simply existing, despite the fact that Lisa's humanity was one of the things he loved about her. Despite the fact that Lisa didn't want him to do what he did.

Castlevania shows that all of this drives him crazy, that it brings him to the point of hurting those he loves most, and that it's wrong. And eventually Dracula seems to come to this conclusion himself in this scene:

"I'm killing our boy...we painted this room, we made these toys. Your greatest gift to me, and I'm killing him...I must already be dead."

In this scene Dracula finally seems to realize what he's doing, how far he's gone, how much Lisa would hate the choices he's made in her name. Ironically, much like Luke leads Anakin to make one final good decision before dying, Alucard does the same for Dracula---although Dracula's good decision is allowing Alucard to kill him at all.

------------

Both Star Wars and Castlevania take the stance that attachment is bad, that it leads down a dark path and only causes harm to yourself and those around you, and that it isn't love---as much as some may claim it is. They both demonstrate this through several different storylines, as well as the conclusion of its main story point.

In conclusion, Castlevania gets Star Wars.

[ooops-i-arted]

idk if this is an unwelcome rant or anything but I saw your anti ahs0ka posts from july and I’m just….so frustrated. I don’t want to sound like a dudebro but as someone whose favorite SW character is Luke I just can’t stand Star Wars anymore. I personally didn’t like him in tlj, but I could accept it—but then they just sort of kept chipping at him through every new piece of media. He’s strange in mando/tbobf, no one will join his temple despite apparently all of these older force sensitives surviving rotj, even obi-wan is retconned to know leia more. now this shit w this show, where #she is the self-insert in thrawn stuff. also you don’t even have to be FS anymore, etc etc. the “important Jedi lineage” is now obi-wan-anakin-ahs0ka, bc who even cares about luke amirite. it just sucks because I did genuinely used to like her, but with every new thing it could not be more clear that narratively she should have died bc now the whole gffa’s story is hers

I'd love to say I'm above petty rant but I am SO not, your rant is most welcome. If you don't have anything nice to say about Ahsoka, come sit by me. 😉 (Honestly I'm just happy to see other people acknowledging what a poorly written character she is when I've been saying this since the Rebels season 2 finale. I definitely felt like the only one back then.)

More seriously.... yeah, I do get the feeling of everything you loved about Star Wars being chipped away. I hope those who do enjoy it have fun and all, I don't begrudge anyone that, but I can't lie, I do kinda feel the same way. Like it's all being rewritten Filoni-style. And George Lucas he is not, no matter how much he thinks he is. Also I don't presume to know Timothy Zahn's feelings but I still think it's shitty and disrespectful as hell to carve a big hole out of the wonderful, iconic Thrawn trilogy and plop Ahsoka in. It's becoming REAL obvious that Filoni isn't the creative genius he's hailed as, he strip mines Legends for ideas and then gets the credit.

At this point I almost rather they leave Luke alone. Han is my BOY and they already did him so dirty (left Leia, returned to smuggling invalidating all his character development in the OT, gets a crappy death from his shitty incel son - I did like Solo but it was too little to late) so I 100% get your feelings there. It's like Disney doesn't even care how important these characters are so many people in their rush to replace them with their new, safely copyrighted and controlled characters. And ofc Filoni props his TCW OCs over all. Just look at how Mando S3 had Din and Grogu's story trashed so Girlboss Barbie Bo could feature instead. I'm not sure why they're so resistant to paying writers, they clearly need some new ones.

[tljisthegoat]

The cruel irony of Disney, a company that used to be known for Happily Ever Afters & overall wholesome family-friendly shows/movies, absolutely butchered & disrespected Reylo's story just boggles my mind. They really looked at what Rian Johnson did with TLJ & and said, "Let's ruin EVERYTHING" just because the internet had the equivalent of a temper tantrum mixed with a mental breakdown over Luke not being this perfect Jedi that he was in the Old Canon/Legends continuity.

They must've mentally blocked out all of Yoda's warnings to Luke about the consequences of using the dark side.

Like when he flat out told Luke & us as the audience that if Luke used the dark side, it would start him down the dark path. Forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will. As it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. This proved to be true when Luke's use of the dark side allowed him to overcome & defeat Vader. But at the cost of changing his destiny. This is further explored in TLJ when Luke tries to kill Ben in order to stop him from becoming Kylo Ren in the future.

Sooo we're just gonna ignore that the biggest difference between Darth Vader and Kylo Ren is what Luke sensed in them? People lack critical thinking & literary analysis skills, and it shows.

Luke to Darth Vader - "I've accepted you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father. It is the name of your true self. You've only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your emperor now."

Luke continues on. "Come with me."

Luke walks toward Vader, his eyes hopeful and determined. "Search your feelings father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you let go of your hate."

Vader responds with such overwhelming sadness, "It is too late for me, son..."

Luke: "Then my father is truly dead."

Luke: "Your thoughts betray you, father. I sense the good in you. The conflict"

Vader: "There is no conflict."

Yet, when he looks into Ben's mind, he sees darkness. He's an unreliable narrator as well to Rey, who has to force the truth of what happened to Ben out of him.

Luke: "I saw darkness. I sensed it building him in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame and consequence. And the last thing I saw was the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

Rey believes in Ben being their last hope, and she was right in the end. She was also right to tell Luke that his fatal mistake was believing Ben's choice was made already. It wasn't.

Rey & Ben found belonging in one another in TLJ and had that story been given a proper conclusion with lots of kisses, sex and all that good stuff, then we would've had a future that truly lives forever instead of one that's a pathetic shell of what it could've been.

[rebelsofshield]

Star Wars Ahsoka: "Shadow Warrior" - Review

Ahsoka delivers a long awaited moment for Star Wars fans that is at times moving but often cut down by the cloudy storytelling that surrounds this series.

After her surprise defeat at the hands of Baylan Skoll, Ahsoka Tano awakens in the World Between Worlds, a strange realm that operates outside time and space. There she is confronted by her former master, Anakin Skywalker, who has one final lesson for her. Meanwhile Hera Syndulla race against time to locate their friend before the New Republic questions her unsanctioned mission to Seatos.

"Shadow Warrior" in many ways feels built to satisfy fans of Dave Filoni's long running narratives in the Star Wars universe. It functions as a sort-of-sequel/sort-of-remake of The Clone Wars and provides the first real return of Hayden Christensen to the role of Anakin Skywalker. Yes, Christensen appeared in last year's Obi-Wan Kenobi limited series, but most of his performance was often concealed beneath Darth Vader's black mask or an all too short flashback sequence. Here, prequel fans get what they've been demanding for years, the chance for Christensen to really get to play the role of Anakin Skywalker one more time.

It's a moment that carries with it loaded and complex emotions and expectations. The last time we know that these two characters met was during an apocalyptic duel to the death on the Sith planet of Malachor, where Ahsoka finally learned the truth about her former master. But now, we have what is presumably Anakin's spirit interacting with his former apprentice now as a grown woman. There's weight and drama baked into the very premise of this interaction and if executed properly, the result could've been one of the most emotional sequences in franchise history.

Unfortunately, we don't quite get there. Sure, there are moments beautiful moments in Dave Filoni's script, but the same vague and murky character decisions that have plagued this series resurface in full force here. "Shadow Warrior" comes to be defined just as much about what is not said as what is.

A lot of this again comes down to the decision to keep so much of Ahsoka's recent past a mystery. "Shadow Warrior" wants you very much to believe that Ahsoka is still entirely defined by the events of The Clone Wars. Sure, what happens to us in our young adulthood can effect our entire lives, but almost three decades have passed since Ahsoka walked away from the Jedi Order. Not only does it seem strangely misguided for us to assume that Ahsoka has remained a static character for the thirty years, but this very series has been bombarding us with reminders that she's actually been up to quite a bit. Some of this can be accepted or hand-waived away. We can't know the totality Ahsoka's life during this time period, but there are some very big questions hanging over this series and some of them feel particularly relevant to the story "Shadow Warrior" wants to tell. For example, what exactly does Ahsoka know about Anakin Skywalker's redemption and death? Does she know about this at all? I guess, if she did learn the truth, it presumably happened off screen like her first interaction with Luke. (I'm still so pissed about this.) But, despite some rather blunt visual cues reminding us of Anakin's eventual fate, Ahsoka and her former master only briefly touch on his life as Vader. It's the cloud hanging over this entire episode and we are never really allowed to understand how Ahsoka feels about or comprehends what this means for the man that defined her childhood.

It's the culmination of the flawed manner in which Ahsoka treats its title character. Between FIloni's narrative withholding and Rosario Dawson's overly subdued performance, we can't quite understand much of anything about our protagonist here. "Shadow Warrior" sets up a shift in character and a revelation for Ahsoka's emotional and spiritual journey, but we are left to infer what exactly this all means without being handed all the tools to do so. It almost feels like reading the fourth book in a series of novels after being forced to skip over a rather eventful third installment

It's a shame because I do actually like the core of what I think "Shadow Warrior" is trying to say here. Given the stylized nature of the animation, it's sometimes hard in The Clone Wars to appreciate that Ahsoka was just fourteen years old when she was drafted into fighting a war. The padawans of The Clone Wars were for all intents and purposes child soldiers. This feels remarkably more apparent in Ahsoka. Part of this is simply the nature of a live action production, but this effect is sold wonderfully by Ariana Greenblatt's performance as a younger Ahsoka. Greenblatt's acting is stellar and she easily captures the personality of our title character at this far younger age. She and Christensen so easily slip into the mold of a dynamic that was established in a completely different medium and the older-brother, younger-sister dynamic is encapsulated wonderfully by both performers. Greenblatt steals the show even with her relatively short screentime and Hayden Christensen manages to blend his previous take on Anakin with the more heroic portrayal of The Clone Wars in a way that feels natural but unique. Their conversations together and "Shadow Warrior's" dreamlike recreations of some of the war's climactic battles are beautifully realized even if the limits of Ahsoka's budget are sometimes more apparent than usual here. (Also! Live action Captain Rex!)

"Shadow Warrior" seems to say (again emphasis on seems) that Ahsoka's determination to stop Thrawn's arrival is to stop more people from experiencing the same horrors she did as a teenager on the frontlines of The Clone Wars. It's a believable motivation, but it again runs into a lot of larger contextual issues when you think about it for more than a few seconds. Didn't the galaxy just get out of a rather big war? Where was Ahsoka during all of that? Did she avoid battle due to her trauma? Is her current determination just as much motivated by her own guilt at not doing more to stop the Empire? That very well could be true, but, again, Filoni's scripts have never given us a confirmation either way. It's all inference based off assumptions based off the subtlest of in text clues.

Anakin's big lesson to Ahsoka feels a tad more straightforward. "Live or die" is a bit of a blunt binary, but it's the absolute that Anakin delivers to his former apprentice. (I guess he does still have some Sith in him.) The lesson being that Ahsoka can not only choose to return to life after her near drowning, but that she can fully embrace her life again rather than being defined by her hurt and guilt. This seems to posit that Ahsoka's demeanor throughout the first four episodes of this series were a sort of emotional low for the character, a state that had to be worked through and escaped from. I can buy this, but again, none of this is actually communicated the viewer directly, not now and certainly not beforehand. It also begs the question of whether she's been this detached ever since The Clone Wars, which seems to be what "Shadow Warrior" implies? If so, that definitely didn't seem to be the case when we last left her in Rebels, even after she learned Darth Vader's secret.

I'm not one who normally asks to have things spelled out for me so directly, but I do want to understand the emotional lives of my characters. Or at the very least be given enough textual information within the narrative to make me feel like I understand the emotional lives of my characters. Ahsoka has struggled tremendously with this and "Shadow Warrior's" character forward approach only does so much to alleviate this.

That all being said, the destination we arrive at is remarkably refreshing. Rosario Dawson's performance becomes much less wooden. Ahsoka shows a little bit more of her personality. Her playfulness. Her humor. Her passion and creativity. They all start to flow back to the surface and for a little while I actually start to feel like I'm looking at an older version of a character I've grown to love. I'm happy that this seems to be the end goal of our journey, even if the journey itself was hard as hell to grasp. Also she gets to ride a space whale. I love space whales.

"Shadow Warrior" also marks the best outing we've seen from Dave Filoni as a live action director. Actors feel more comfortable and natural in their performances. Shot composition is more dynamic. A visual style feels more apparent. The World Between Worlds is a stunning location even if we see relatively little of it here.

"Shadow Warrior" closes out as both a milestone episode of Star Wars television and a frustrating casualty of storytelling failures. It's A+ Star Wars that is hampered considerably by the sloppy decisions that preceded it. But, we got live action Hayden Christensen Anakin again. And it was great. And we got Rosario Dawson's Ahsoka to start to come alive. Even just for a little. I'd call that a win.

Score: B

[swiftsnowmane]

@dasfeministmermaid - apologies, I realise you asked this absolutely ages ago (last year now, even!), but re: my tags on this post, I was mostly just referring to the fact that at the time Disney took over SW, the popularity of GoT was largely responsible for the trend towards dark and 'gritty realism' in fantasy media in general. I don't claim there was necessarily direct influence on the SW sequels, but if we are talking cultural zeitgeists, then aside from perhaps Marvel, GoT was certainly one of the most prominent at the time. And I can't help but see something of that in TFA’s whole 'we’re going to portray the Original Trio as colossal failures and morally grey at best, instead of the unquestionably heroic figures created by George Lucas'. Not to mention the bizarro depiction of the Skywalker family as some kind of 'cursed' dynasty that was doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past, despite the fact that such a cynical interpretation flew in the face of every story element, theme, and character arc established in the original saga. The only Skywalker who was under a so-called 'curse' was Anakin (and by that I simply mean his enslavement by Sidious), and he freed himself (and his family, and the whole galaxy) from that once and for all when he destroyed the Sith and saved his son at the end of Return of the Jedi. In this light, the course of events that was supposed to have taken place off-screen in-between RotJ and TFA made no sense within the actual context established by the Lucas saga. The milieu of the characters in the PT and OT is purposefully constructed to be different from one another, hence why the Skywalker twins are raised without any direct Jedi influence, in loving families, are allowed to have childhoods, allowed to love, etc., unlike their parents who were trapped within an increasingly corrupt system that actively prevented them from living together as a couple or family. The very context in which Luke and Leia’s story takes place is a big part of what allows them to definitively break the cycle.

Of course, it can be argued that simply by continuing the story beyond RotJ at all, the Disney-sequels were always going to destroy the meaning of the Lucas saga. But the character assassination of the Original Trio in TFA was a conscious and completely unnecessary decision—after all, a sequel could have potentially been made without destroying Han, Luke, and Leia’s entire characterisations and relationships. The fact that Disney also (lazily and pointlessly) decided to construct a new 'Dark Times' as the setting is even more telling, since there was absolutely no need to do so, and all it did was add to the impression that these characters were nihilistically doomed to constantly repeat the same past mistakes and tragedies, when nothing could be further from the truth that Lucas' story established. I have gone into great detail about this many times over the years since TFA was released, so I won't dwell on it here, but the Original Trio absolutely DOES 'break the cycle', and suggesting otherwise destroys not only the meaning of the OT, but also that of the Prequels (basically erasing Anakin's entire story). The unequivocally happy ending of RotJ is likewise what 'redeems' the tragedy of the Prequels, and without that, the meaning of the entire Lucas saga is totally undermined and destroyed. I refuse to accept that, hence why I've always rejected the Disney-sequels and will never accept them as legitimate canon.

In brief, Star Wars was never meant to be 'gritty', nor is the outcome of its storyline supposed to be 'realistic'. Lucas' saga begins with a tragedy (the Prequels) that is subsequently redeemed by a fairytale (Original Trilogy), and which, when taken together, forms a created-myth, the outcome of which is meant to be idealistic, positive, uplifting, redemptive, and restorative. It is the eucatastrophe that Tolkien talks about, the defiance in the face of 'universal final defeat'. But the Disney-sequels ignored and/or actively overturned everything positive and meaningful about the original saga (that most lifelong SW fans like myself had valued and cherished since childhood) and all in the service of a decidedly lesser wannabe ‘addition’ that was devoid of the inspiring Romanticism and mythopoesis of Lucas’ saga. TFA came at a time when studios had certain assumptions about audience expectations and pandered to those accordingly. So I’m not saying there was direct influence from GoT, just that there was a cultural trend that a lot of media got swept up in at that time. Imo, it's also just the inevitable pitfall of attempting to make something that vaguely resembles ‘Star Wars' appeal to contemporary sensibilities. It was never going to work, because Star Wars (the real Star Wars) is mythic, Romantic, and transcendent—a type of story that, sadly, contemporary studios and audiences alike seem unable to appreciate.

**Note: most of the meta I've linked on this subject is from my Star Wars sideblog which is vehemently anti-Sequels, so fair warning to anyone who happens to like those. ;p

[thewriterowl]

I'm sooo happy! 💖

Luke finally got to talk with Din, and he is FINALLY getting to the point of healing! He's finally asking for things for him!

He also finally told them that he wants someone to be willing to fight for him, to be there for him. Someone he knows without a doubt would be there in his time of need. And these two idiots are FINALLY getting it through their thick skulls! It only took them nearly losing Luke in the process, but hey progress is progress, I guess.

I really really really hope that the last chapter will include Luke's emotional talk with Anakin. He did tell him some things of course, like how he wants to have the same kind of loving father son bond with Anakin, like Anakin has with Din. But it feels like Luke is just so tired, and so afraid of rejection from his father that he can't really open up to him. I just really hope that Luke has that moment with Anakin where he completely breaks down in tears and Anakin just holds him tightly, promising that he'll never ever let Luke go again. And that he's so sorry, and will spend the rest of his life doing everything he could to make it up to his baby boy.

I also want the jedi to be all like "Took you long enough...idiots" I hope that someone is willing to fight for Luke, now. And finally give him the love he deserves. Because I've been pretty much thinking "Fuck off mandalorians, if you can't take care of him, I'll find someone who can" the majority of this entire story.

Loved the fic, and while I kinda wanted Luke to give them a bit of a hard time, and make them earn his love and forgiveness I could understand why he didn't. He's just so tired of fighting for everything and all he wants is love and acceptance. And if Din is willing to give him what he desperately needs, why fight it?

Apologies for the delay in my response!

Yeah, Luke deserved to get it all off his chest. He needed to let them know he can't do it anymore, he can't do it again. He has fought for himself and others so long, has given up so much, that he just can't do it any more. Unless they step up and support him and fight for him, he just can't be with them. It's too much, it's too sad.

Luckily, Luke is getting his happiness as he deserves and Din and Anakin can now worship as they should (and have wanted to for so long) so everyone is allowed to win their happy ending!

[thetreestumptherapist]

Before you feed me to the Rancor, hear me out please.

I actually prefer to call her Rey Solo because I refuse to accept Ben's death and have rewritten the end of that movie in my head so that they eventually get together. I might post my version of it at some point. I don't have all the details yet, I just know he doesn't die and they marry at some point.

2. I am gonna get killed for this. But, I think the youngling slayer 9000 chooses who the next Skywalker is. Like Mjolnir chose Thor. In the force awakens Maz says "the lightsaber chose you". It was made by Anakin, chose Obi-wan to hold it until Luke was worthy, chose Luke, luke lost it, (along with his hand) and then it chose Maz to hold it while it waited for Rey, and then it chose her to bring back Luke (or debatably Ben), chose her to defeat Palpatine (HOLD YOUR FATHIERS! We'll get to that in a minute), chose her to be the next Skywalker. ALTERNATIVELY, she was the second choice because Luke rejected it when it was handed to him. And so it was like, "Okaaaaay then. Hey Rey, you think you could do something for me?" And then chose her to be the next hero.

On Palpatine being back: Do you guys really think and I mean REALLY believe the same guy who orchestrated an entire war, pulling strings on both sides, personally investing tons of resources into both sides, all for his gain, would not have some sort of plan to come back and rule again after his inevitable death? Especially with access to cloning technologies? Come on guys. I will agree, it could have had a better introduction, and definitely needed more details in the movie, but I believe it's a reasonable thing to happen because Sidious was ridiculously determined to live forever. And let's not forget he was the apprentice of and MANAGED TO KILL Darth freaking Plagueis!

Back to Rey Skywalker Solo.

She was basically adopted by two blood Skywalkers, and they were the closest thing she had to a family. So, it's reasonable to think she took their name as a way of saying thank you. Also, would you want to keep your last name if it was linked to the guy who caused decades of strife for an entire galaxy? I don't think so. Now, she could have tried to reclaim the Palpatine name, but that would be a LOT of work. Also, with Luke and Leia showing up at the end like that, like Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin did for Luke, I think they were kind of saying, "Good job kid" "Thank you for what you've done for us" and "We approve." And she was returning to where everything began, the Lars homestead. (I agree, it was kind of rude to bury Anakin's lightsaber in sand, but I "undersand" why she did it {I'm sorry}) All of their stories started with sand. She didn't really know anything about Anakin, but she did know about Luke. And since there wasn't really anything to Anakin's home, the Lars homestead makes the most sense. The Lars homestead has the most significance. Shmi married Cliegg Lars, and Anakin started truly descending to the darkside there because that's where he went after he slaughtered the tuskens. It's where R2 and 3PO met Luke and went to find Obi-wan. And many more reasons.

With the Skywalkers is the only place she actually felt at home, and like she belonged with a group. I think it makes perfect sense that she would consider herself part of their family and take their last name, carry on their legacy (a questionable decision if you actually think about it, although I think the galaxy still hailed them as heroes), and continue fighting the forces of evil with their blessing.

I guess you can feed me to the Rancor now. I can't think of anything else to say.

i don’t trust anyone who seriously calls rey skywalker

[lostintherealmsofthefandoms]

I feel that one of the biggest mistake of the sequels were that they tried to retold a story that took 6 movies to be told, in only 3 movies. The whole good guy turning evil and than redeeming himself in the sequels it was so shallow, we don't see Kylo going dark slowly but it feels all suddenly. And we all know how poorly developed was Rey's power and arc. And their romance/kiss it felt so out of place to me, like from nowhere, all suddenly too. And all this is a recall from the original story. Kylo is Anakin. Rey is Luke. Kylo and Rey are Padmé and Anakin. Except that Anakin's story was told in 6 movies and his relationship with Padmé was explored in 2 movies, and Luke by TROTJ is not all powerful, cause ya know he just started his training. Now in the sequels, Kylo story is told with the aid of flashbacks, in 3 movies only, he and Rey only had a more romantic relationship literally in the final scene and she is all powerful in the end, so what? Palpatine was more powerful than the chosen one, once Rey his granddaughter was able to do what Luke son of the chosen one was not, which is be powerful without no training, powerful enough to destroy him?

Imagine if we had seen Kylo turning to the dark and had nothing to do with Luke trying kill him cause Luke would never do this let's be honest, and Palpatine is still dead, and Rey is his granddaughter, and this is the personal drama, about the heir of the sith lord and the heir of the chosen one. How heavy this is to both of them. Snoke is the real villain, he had found a way to manipulate the force in a way that disturb the balance, he is not a sith though, and he is a well explored villain. And Kylo and Rey demonstrate have romantic feelings for each other through the whole 3 movies and this is well developed and in the end Rey and Kylo join force, the perfect balance, him, heir of the light side power, she, heir of the dark side power, and together being power up by Anakin, Luke and Leia ghosts force, with all the other jedis ghost forces creating a circle around them and sending them energy through the force, they defeat Snoke. By doing this Kylo had redeemed himself, he's dying after had sacrificied for Rey, bringing her back to life, but the ghosts force jedi united sending power through the force to Anakin, who heal him, cause the story is not gonna repeat and finally, not through the dark side but through the light side, Anakin was able to save those that he loved from dying. All the jedi ghost force had agree in give a chance to Kylo to live. And so he and Rey can live the life that Anakin and Padmé wasn't able to live. And the Skywalkers lived through them and their bloodline continued through many years, cause and the last Skywalker survived and lived.

[writerbuddha]

"Twisted and Evil" - Yoda and Obi-Wan were right about Darth Vader all along

"He made a pact with the Devil and now he's become the Devil." - George Lucas about Anakin Skywalker, Revenge of the Sith Audio Commentary 

It's common to think of Evil as a quality or characteristic inherent to some people's being, or as an external force operating on humanity's flaws and imperfections, infecting and seducing them, sometimes personified as the Devil. There is a notion of the Evil person, whose nature is 100% evil, that they will remain that way because it's their fundamental unchanging nature, and there is a certain either or that, all or nothing way of thinking, postulating, Good and Evil are mutually exclusive: true Evil doesn't allow for any Good to reside in a person, but if there is even a drop of Good within them, they're not truly Evil. These ideas - Evil as an external force, Evil as an intrinsic quality, Evil as something that pushes Good out of a person - are all powerfully rejected by George Lucas' Star Wars story.

George Lucas' Star Wars: Good and Evil redefined

In Episode IV, Obi-Wan identifies the culprit behind the evil deeds of Darth Vader: "he was seduced by the dark side of the Force" and in Episode V, Master Yoda reveals, the dark side of the Force is: Anger, fear, aggression... The dark side of the Force are they." He explains, "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." Later, as part of his Jedi training, Yoda instruct Luke to descend the cave that is "strong with the dark side", the "domain of evil", he tells him, there will find nothing, but “only what you take with you” adding, "Your weapons, you will not need them."

But Luke decides to take his lightsaber with himself: he approaches "evil" with expectations of an external force, something that he fears, angry at, hates and has aggressive feelings toward. And this is what manifests itself in the cave, what is within him: the likeness of Darth Vader appears. Luke draws his blade to fight him, and as they do, he decapitates the vision. The severed head's mask bursts apart, revealing Luke's face underneath, showing: he met with his own idea of evil as an external enemy, he reacted to it with fear, anger and aggression, hate, and the vision shown him, what he resent in Vader is also within himself. What moved him, ruled his reactions to the likeness of Vader are identical to what rules, moves Darth Vader: fear, anger, aggression, hate. This is evil, nothing more, nothing less. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda tells him, he failed in the cave, proving, he can't control the Force, therefore, he is not ready to face Vader, and warning him, "if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did you will become an agent of evil" warning him, “don’t give in to hate. That leads to the dark side.” In Episode VI, the dying Yoda repeats, “anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

In Episode I, Yoda identifies fear, especially the fear of losing the people we love as the origins of evil: "fear is a path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering" and in Episode III, he repeats: “fear of loss is a path to the dark side." He warns against not accepting death as part of life: “attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.” In Star Wars: The Clone Wars, in Yoda's Arc, while on his quest to achieve immortality, the Force Priestess Serenity instructs Yoda to face with "what in your existence some call evil, otherwise known as fear" and she says, "You must face your evil on that island and defeat it." Yoda faces with a dark creature, that he can defeat only through recognizing it as his own dark side, something that is a part of himself, "part of all that lives." He says, confronting with it, "Part of me you are, yes, but power over me you have not. Through patience and training, it is I, who control you. My dark side, you are. Reject you, I do." Serenity tells him afterwards, summarizing the lesson, "the beast is you and you are the beast. To deny it simply gives it power" to which Yoda responds, "Now I see. Simple the answer was."

Why some people believe, Luke "proved Yoda and Obi-Wan wrong" about Darth Vader?

George Lucas' Star Wars story - encompassed by the six episodes of the Star Wars Saga and the six seasons of Star Wars: The Clone Wars - is devoid of Evil as an external, independent, metaphysical force or a quality inherent to some people's being. In Episodes IV to VI, Obi-Wan and Yoda established that the line dividing good and evil cuts through the being of all living things, with the bad side being fear, anger, hate and aggression – what makes Darth Vader evil is that he is seduced by and is consumed by and he is walking on the path of fear, anger, hate and aggression. These emotions and feelings are part of Luke as well, and if he gives in to them, and falls under their sway, he will become just like Darth Vader. Yoda warns, once he gives in to them, they will consume him and his actions will dominate his destiny forever. In Episodes I to III, as well as in the Clone Wars, these lessons were re-stated and elaborated. Thus, it should be clear that their teachings on the nature of evil are radically different from conventional and popular concepts of Evil. 

In the 2010s, it become popular to entertain the idea, Yoda and Obi-Wan, the old Jedi Masters, in their absolutist, dogmatic and fanatic, black or white, all or nothing way of thinking, were simply unable to comprehend the possibility that Darth Vader can be saved, that there is any good left in him, and they're telling Luke, Darth Vader is Evil and Evil must be destroyed for Good to prevail, but Luke, the young one, naturally free of such flaws, proves them wrong by bringing his father back to the light side. But those who ascribe to this reading, are ignoring the mythology, cosmology and philosophy outlined in the Star Wars Saga and The Clone Wars. Their reasoning is founded on the fact that Obi-Wan and Yoda are using the word "evil", or they describe Vader as "twisted and evil" and "agent of evil" or "twisted by the dark side", while ignoring their definition of evil, as well as on projecting a "Dark-Side-Is-the-Devil" concept onto their teachings.

Yoda and Obi-Wan are not "wrong" about Darth Vader: in truth, the Jedi teachings throughout the Saga and Clone Wars are not rejecting the potential or possibility that an "evil person" will return to the good side. When Luke says Obi-Wan, "there is still good in [Vader]", the Jedi Master's reply, "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." only translates to "No, there is no good in him! He is evil and evil must be destroyed!" if his usage of the word "evil" is divorced from his definition and concept of evil, and replaced with non-Star Wars concepts and notions of Evil and Evil people. The truth is, Obi-Wan and Yoda are not denying that there is still good in Vader - in accordance to their worldview and the cosmology of Star Wars - but they're both skeptical about whether this means that Vader can be turned back to the light side of the Force, and they believe, Luke will be forced to kill his father if he is about to save the galaxy.

Vader and his Emperor are under the sway of fear, anger, hate and aggression, and they both want to rule the galaxy, and they want to do it through fear, destroying entire planets and all living things on it to further that ambition, torturing and killing anyone who dares to oppose them, wielding fear, anger, hate and aggression - this is what makes the Sith. And this is why they must be confronted and stopped, even if this means killing them. Therefore, it shouldn't be hard to realize, "Sith" is not follower of a religion or a philosophy, a member of a culture or someone who uses dark sources of magic, rather, just like Lucas defined them, "The Sith are people who are very self-centered and selfish." and "Sith rely on their passion to get things done. They use their raw emotion, their hatred, their anger, their bitterness - which is the dark side of the Force", in addition, "Sith want to dominate the galaxy, to control everything" and "A Sith is somebody that is absolutely obsessed with gaining more and more power - but for what? Nothing, except that it becomes an obsession to get more." "Sith" is a personality, a state of mind, an attitude, a relationship to yourself, the world and others. And this is what Jedi Knights vow to fight against. This is why Yoda indicates in Episode III, "Destroy the Sith we must", and this is why Obi-Wan told Anakin, as the Chosen One, "You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!" And this is why Yoda tells Luke in Episode V: "Stopped [Vader and the Emperor] must be. On this all depends!"

Yoda and Obi-Wan are preparing Luke for a confrontation that they believe, will end with Luke being forced to kill his father, but they never instruct him to do so. Yoda tells Luke, "you must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will." When Obi-Wan tells him, "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again", it's Luke who says it out loud: "I can't kill my own father" - because Luke knows, if he have to confront Vader, that would most likely mean, he will have to kill him. In the 1980s, Lucas explained, "The mission isn't for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him." And Luke tries to avoid the situation, so he won't have to confront Vader and the Emperor. This is why Obi-Wan tells him, "Then the emperor has already won." Only on Endor, Luke accepts his destiny and decides: "I have to face him." When Leia asks him, "But why you must confront him?" he replies, "Because there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I can save him. I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try."

It should be clear that there is no real conflict between Luke and the old Jedi Masters: Luke himself states, his father is on the bad side of the Force, he doesn't entertain the idea that he is not evil. The question is not whether or not Darth Vader is evil - he is - or whether or not there is a possibility or a potential for him to turn back into Anakin Skywalker, the good man who kept his dark side under the check of his light side - there is. The question is: will Darth Vader choose the good side over the bad? Obi-Wan warns Luke, Vader sank very low - "twisted and evil" - thus, it would be a miracle if that happens. Luke chooses to risk it: he takes a leap of faith.

Did Yoda and Obi-Wan sent Luke to Kill his Father?

Darth Vader turning back to the good side, into Anakin Skywalker was a theoretically possible, however, this was true to the Emperor as well. And whereas Lucas confirmed, Luke's mission is not to go and kill the Sith for the sake of destroying them, it should not be surprising that Yoda and Obi-Wan were not founding their plan to save the galaxy on faith in the inherent goodness of all that lives, but on the cold hard facts. Thus, as Lucas tells us, "You discover that Luke is being guided by Obi-Wan and Yoda. There is a plan afoot" and the fact that Luke doesn't know what that plan is, is "a little nefarious, because [Yoda and Obi-Wan] think he's the only one who probably has the power to kill Vader. Their agenda is to kill Vader and basically cut off the Emperor's right hand." In the same time, he repeated, the mission is not just to kill and get rid of Vader: "Ben hopes Luke will either save his father or kill him." Therefore, plainly and simply, Yoda and Obi-Wan sent Luke to confront Vader and end the rule of the Sith, and yes, they told him, if this have to involve killing Darth Vader, then it have to involve killing Darth Vader.

"They don't show 'Luke, what you need to do is to go to Darth Vader and give him a compassionate speech to bring him back to the good side'"

Yoda and Obi-Wan and the Jedi Order are sometimes accused with mishandling the Sith Lords, especially Darth Vader. If they were so compassionate, so the argument goes, then they were supposed to preach love and light to Vader - there was good in him, surely, he would listen! For example, even Dave Filoni claims, the Jedi weren't interested in saving Darth Vader: "They don't show 'Luke, what you need to do is to go to Darth Vader and give him a compassionate speech to bring him back to the good side.'" However, this reasoning is quite impractical, to put it mildly: no one would argue that all Darth Sidious needed was a "compassionate speech to bring him back to the good side", because he is branded True Evil, as opposed to Vader, who is believed to be not really Evil, since there was good in him.

"Nobody thinks of themselves as bad, not even the worst people, and they rationalize their behavior to say that we are doing good by killing all these people" Lucas reminds us, telling, “One of the issues in all of this is that the bad guys think they’re good. And Lord Sidious thinks he is brining peace to the galaxy, because of so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on. And then now he’s going to be able to straighten everything out. Which may be true, but the price the galaxy’s gonna have to pay for it is way too much.” Even Darth Sidious wasn't True Evil, because True Evil does not exist - there was good in him, too. However, the idea that when it comes to dealing with people like Sidious and Vader, "what you need to do is to go to them and give them a compassionate speech to bring them to the good side" is unrealistic and unreasonable, to put it mildly. And this is powerfully illustrated in Episode VI: Luke does go to Darth Vader and give him a compassionate speech to bring him back to the good side - and that won't transform Vader into Anakin Skywalker. Instead, when he tells Vader, he won't be turned to the dark side and Vader will have to kill him, his answer is: "If that's your destiny." When Luke ask him to come with him, Vader replies "It's too late for me", then he turns him over the Emperor. And when Luke tries to disengage from the fight, declaring, "I will not fight with you", Vader reacts with throwing his saber at him. When he realizes, he has a daughter as well, he concludes, "If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will."

How Luke Skywalker saved Darth Vader?

Yoda and Obi-Wan trained Luke to understand, what he resents in Darth Vader and the Emperor is also within himself, and he must keep that side of himself under the check of his light side - if he is forced to kill Vader, even then he must not repeat his failure in the cave of Dagobah. Vader and the Emperor are both urging Luke to to forsake the Jedi way, to make him to give in, to relinquish control over his fear, anger, hate and aggressive feelings, so he will experience the power of their energy and be seduced by it - to repeat his failure. The Emperor encourages him, "give in to your anger" and rejoicing, as Luke's anger and hate is "swelling" in him, saying, "with each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." He urges Luke, "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!"

Vader briefly manages to make Luke use the dark side, to be filled with fear, anger, hate and aggression toward him. In his fear, rage and hate, Luke attacks and mutilates his father, and the Emperor cheers: "Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!" And this is the moment when Luke comes to his senses: he looks at Vader's missing robotic hand, then down to his own robotic hand, and he recognizes, he is on the path of becoming Vader, that he is repeating his vision in the cave, and he says no. Luke Skywalker is adhering to the Jedi way as Yoda and Obi-Wan taught him, brining his dark side under the control of his light side, which is compassion. "You failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." As George Lucas confirms, "[Vader's] son saved him by doing the very thing that Vader couldn’t do. Luke wouldn’t turn to the dark side, and unfortunately, that’s what Vader did.”

"Luke is not trying to get some magic potion. He does not accept the Emperor's offer of 'Come to the dark side, and you can be all-powerful.' When Vader see's his son willing to give up his life to save him - "Kill me. I am not going that way not matter what" - that is what turns him. It is the end of Vader's journey to the dark side." And "He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son." And so, Anakin Skywalker, just like Luke, brings his dark side under the control of his light side, and breaks free from the shell of Darth Vader: the return of the Jedi. As Lucas explains the overall lesson: "Even the worst, most evil people find compassion. Darth Vader has compassion for his children, and that’s ultimately what children are for."

The Lesson of the Tragedy of Darth Vader

Way too often, the lesson of the fall and redemption of Darth Vader is obscured by attempts to reconcile Star Wars’ lessons on evil and evil people with the common and popular ways of thinking about Evil. However, all these are stemming from the desire to dismiss George Lucas’ call not for a new holy war against evil, but a less dramatic struggle, under the guidance of ancient sages, to control our fear, anger, hate, aggression, ignorance and selfishness, to keep this part of ourselves under check by our compassionate side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope, a struggle to transform our view on evil itself.

[alexjcrowley]

I was kind of worried for the episode when I saw Reva going after Luke. The point is, we knew Luke wouldn't have been harmed. We knew Owen and Beru wouldn't have been seriously harmed. What's the point. I mean, it made sense in the plot, but I thought it was going to be kind of boring to see, especially because her scenes were alternated with that epic battle between Vader and Kenobi. Reva's part of the episode just felt like low tension. I already did notice the parallels with Anakin, how she looked in that cape, but it still felt to me like "what's the point of this? Why am I supposed to feel tension?"

And then the alternating scenes with Anakin killing the younglings, and seeing her instead of Luke, and Reva bringing Luke back and Obi Wan giving her the speech he hoped he could have given Anakin, he hoped he could have said "it's okay, my young padawan, you still haven't fallen for the dark side, there's still light in you, compassion, kindness", he never could save Anakin but now he gets to to see Reva redeem herself, not anyone who falls for the dark side is lost forever (how this perfectly matches Vader's ending in Return of the Jedi). Not all is lost, even in the heart of those who seek revenge, there's still place for redemption.

And once again, Luke seems to be the mean for that redemption. He fought and killed and he was forged by the war, but still he makes up for the innocent Reva nor Anakin can get themselves to kill.

Reva is a mirror, is the the proof that there's still a chance for Anakin to save himself, that not all those who falls are doomed, she marks a line between he and Anakin, he could choose to save himself but he didn't, she did, in a world made of prophecies and mystical forces, choices still matters, the real doom is to believe there is nothing left to do, that destiny is set in stone.

Obi Wan could have said it was too late for him to help anybody, that he already failed the one who trusted him once, that there was nothing good to ever come out of him again.

Luke could have accepted that the only way to end a war is a fight until one drops dead.

Tala could have said to herself she already did all the things she should have been ashamed of, that she was not worthy to help those she once mercilessly slaughtered.

This is incoclusive and chaotic but I feel like I could go into so many directions, so many details.

I can't stop thinking "like poetry, it rhymes" for everything. Everything in this story. It's like music. I see faces over faces, I se the same moments, over and over, with different endings, different times, the same feelings, tha same sadness, obsessions, hope, fear, rage. I'm 20 but within Star Wars I have lived entire decades, I have seen history repeat himself, I have seen so many stories and so many people, I feel like an old god observing a distant universe. It rhymes, everything, in the big scale of things, there's a rhythm, I can feel it.

[tiredspacedragon]

Okay. I think I understand what's happening here. I was typing up a big long response with lots of detail, and long explanations of my viewpoints, but I realized it was all kinda pointless.

Because no matter what I said you would not be satisfied, and here's why:

If it wasn't in the movies or TV series, it wasn't canon, so I won't talk about that.

Again, how the Jedi praticed the Force and how George Lucas described it is the same.

The two of us are looking at this story through very different lenses.

You are someone who closely values George Lucas' vision, and I am not, that's what it boils down to. You react to the text based on how well it correlates with that initial intention, I react to it based on the context of the story itself as it has been written both by Lucas and by the various other people who have added their creative voices to the story, and my own life experience.

And there's nothing wrong with how you engage with the story! If that's what brings you enjoyment, then good, keep it up! I admire your dedication.

But there's also nothing wrong with the way I interpret the story. And I won't waste my limited time and energy on arguing the validity of my reading with someone who won't afford me the same respect I give them.

Now, since I can't help myself, I will summarize the main points I was going to make, and you can read through them if you want and react to them as you see fit. Or don't. What ever flies your ship.

Picking and choosing what counts as canon means we basically fundamentally cannot agree with each other on this.

Given what was in some of those temples (and that's just ones we know about), I don't really care why they left. Abandoning them was a mistake. And the fact those outposts existed in the first place proves the Jedi had use for them. The fact that their purpose is lost even to the Jedi in-story is Not Good.

The sheer size of the galaxy is more reason for the Jedi to be more spread out. How could having at least a few major sites across the galaxy make them less effective than having just one right in the middle?

Keeping all the kids in one place ultimately did not protect them though. Having multiple schools across the galaxy would have forced Palpatine to organize a coordinated strike on every location at once, which would have been far less effective overall.

I disagree that dividing the initiates would have decreased diversity. A large group of children growing up in one place and learning from the same group of instructors is going to end up far more homogeneous than multiple smaller groups growing up in different places, immersed in different cultures, and each learning from different instructors, no matter how many guest lecturers they have.

Some of the Lumerians and the villagers on Felucia criticized the Jedi in the same way. To them, Jedi only appeared in times of violence and crisis. Same for Trace and Rafa. They didn't dislike Jedi solely because of Palpatine's propaganda, they disliked them because the Jedi were seen as high-and-mighty agents of the Republic, not servants of the people, as they should have been. I believe they should have been a more community-oriented presence rather than acting mostly on behalf of the Senate.

Don't accuse me of victim blaming and then turn around and blame the Republic's citizens for "accepting" the Empire. That's not classy.

I know perfectly well what attachment means in Star Wars. I just happen to think "attachment" was an awful word to use to describe it and that it has lead to a murky portrayal of the concept with excellent highs (Anakin understanding the theory but being unable to separate his love for Padme from his attachment to her in practice) but equally devastating lows (Ahsoka and Luke's tonal whiplash as they went from very loving people to distant masters who preached the no attachment rule without explaining what it actually meant, thus muddying their characters and the intended moral lesson in the process).

Yoda was obviously calling out Obi-Wan (who missed it entirely, poor dear) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't also true in the broader context.

I said Anakin's attitude caused ripples, not that he was hated. Don't put a whole paragraph of words in my mouth.

Once again, I have never said nor insinuated that the genocide of the Jedi was their own fault, despite how determined you are to claim I have. What I have said is that they were not perfect and had some shortcomings, some substantial, that Palpatine took advantage of and deliberately worsened as part of his plan to destroy them.

And for the record, the extermination of a fictional, powerful, government sanctioned religious order of warrior-monks is very different from the genocide of a real-world marginalized religious minority. The literary parallel is clear, but the context is massively different, and should be allowed to be discussed without people using a real tragedy to criticize people talking about a fictional event in a way they don't like.

Palpatine used the Jedi's wishy-washy stance on politics to maneuver them into a no-win scenario, took advantage of their over-centralization to kill many of them in a single attack, exploited their distance from the populace to turn public opinion against them and reduce them to myth in just 19 years, and took advantage of their diminished ability to use the Force (Mace's words, not mine) to do it all right under their noses.

"How? Give examples and screenshots." "Proof of his closed-mindness?" *ahem* no (:

I do not owe you my time or effort, nor do I need to justify myself to you because you don't like my opinion. You're lucky I've given you this. Don't push it.

Luke throwing away his lightsaber was him choosing the Jedi way of compassion and non-violence, rejecting the cycle of hatred and killing that Palpatine began. Attachment would not become a talking point until the prequel trilogy.

I've read that post you linked before. It's a good read. Does not change that Luke acting uncharacteristically distant while preaching the no-attachment rule only serves to muddy the portrayal of him and the concept more, or the fact that I straight up disagree with some of George Lucas' philosophical takes and think the directions other people have taken the story at times are better.

Anyway, that's it from me. I'm going to choose the Jedi way of peace and go do something else now. May the Force be with you, have a nice life

Darth Maul on Obi-Wan Kenobi +

Perception of the Jedi by their Enemies

Darth Maul has a very consistent strategy when trying to bring down Obi-Wan. Which is attack somewhere, put innocent people in danger. Kenobi being the annoying knight he is will come running to save them. Than kill him when he is busy being a good person.

1-Raydonia 2-Satine 3-Mandalore 4-Luke

(He didn't personally go in the third one but he sent Ahsoka. And he put himself in great risk by authorizing the Siege. This action was illegal.)

The best part is Maul is completely aware what he is doing. He acknowledges this many times.

Your noble flaw is a weakness shared by you and your duchess.

I was expecting Kenobi. Why are you here?

I am lost... And yet, I-I can feel his presence, so close. So close! I can... see him... in my mind's eye. Kenobi. KENOBIIIII!... Will it end here, like this? No. NO! I must draw kenobi out, tempt his noble heart. But how, how?... I know... I know.

His plans literally revolves around Obi-Wan having a noble heart. Which is one of the reasons Maul sees it as a flaw. Because it leaves someone vulnerable to wicked people like Maul.

This isn't even a specific Maul & Obi-Wan thing. We can find many examples of people trying to use Jedi's virtue against them. The Jedi seem to have a reputation in the galaxy as highly virtuous people.

Examples:

Admiral Trench specifically bombarding Senator Organa's refugee camps because he believes this will force Republic Army to engage him. (Tell me again how Republic was as bad as the CIS)

Zygerrian slavers method of enslaving and attempting to control Jedi was hurting innocents every time they showed defiance.

Admiral Trench makes this gamble again in the last season but with the worst person he could choose.

This is a good reference to other scenes and quotes. Reusing the word "nobility" was definitely trying to make a contrast between Trench & Anakin with Maul & Obi-Wan.

It really shows how much Anakin has diverted from what a Jedi should be. He even calls nobility a flaw like Maul does.

☀️☀️☀️

Inspiration for this post came when after seeing some bewildering takes on Obi-Wan, my first thought was:

"Man, even Maul would find these claims ridiculous. No one in star wars has any delusions of Kenobi being evil or corrupt to the degree they imagine."

Things spiraled from there. I ended up finding many evidences of this in canon. Like this quote ⬇️

Why come to this place, not simply to hide?... Oh, you have a purpose here.

I love this one. Maul knows Kenobi is not one to abandon his duty or ideals. Which means if he is on Tatooine he must have some some kind of mission here.

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All of this resulted in creating a hilarious picture because,

I can't believe Admiral Trench and Zygerrians have a more positive perception of the Jedi than many fans of Star Wars.

And people are really out there making Darth freaking MAUL look like a fan. You know it has gone too far when even Maul (the og hater) can't agree with such horrible takes.

I must draw Kenobi out, tempt his noble heart.

[starwarsaddiction]

https://darkcomicsbookslibrariesthing.tumblr.com/post/689847028601241600

^^^ THE JEDI ARE NOT EVIL!!! I HATE THIS SHIT SO FUCKING MUCH!!!

Ah, yeah, tell me you don't understand SHIT about the Galaxy Far Far Away without telling me.

I mean, obviously, the Jedi are evil, they teach emotional awareness and control in a communal environment, they strive to be better all the time, and they grow their children to be trauma free and to be able to help others, who would ever want for their kids? And don't get me started with Obi-Wan and Yoda, warning Luke that Vader is bad, that he wasn't ready to confront him, considering that he wasn't trained enough and that they couldn't tell him point blank that that murderer was his father. How rude of them to prepare him for the idea that there could be no good in him to the point that Luke could have to kill him just to defend himself. I mean, it's not like Obi-Wan himself witnessed Vader killing random people just to lure him from his hiding, dragging him into the fire just to make him suffer, watched him saying that there was no Anakin left in him because he killed him himself! How could Obi-Wan not see that Anakin was a victim at that point?

Ok, I'm being sarcastic, because it's incredible, even more now after the Kenobi series, that people still think that Jedi are arrogant, selfish and entitled. It's absolutely dumb. Or in bad faith, and I think that it's like that for a lot of these video makers, not to count how many of them reeks of fascism and white supremacism, especially when they totally forget the Asian cultures that have influenced the making of the Jedi Order.

George Lucas said it: the Jedi are the most moral people in the galaxy. He wanted the story to be about them and their struggle, how evil can rise against the light and wipe it by the hands of someone that was once a nice kid and was conscripted into the Sith by his greed for power. It's an easy story, told in black and white nuances because it was meant for kids to understand a simple moral story. There is no other way, no grey Jedi, no balance after what Anakin did to the Jedi order. And it was just for the great compassion of his son, who claims to be a JEDI, like his father before him, that Vader can overcome his own greed for power.

Vader wanted Luke to join him, defeat Palpatine and became the ruler of the Galaxy, and THIS is still greed for power, it's still his mindset, until the point when he sees Luke stop fighting, choosing peace and self-sacrifice instead of joining the dark side, that he stands against the Emperor.

I also think that Obi-Wan letting Vader kill him in front of Luke, two films prior, was a sort of lesson on the importance to accept defeat, of self-sacrifice for the sake of others, and Luke accepted and embraced it. He was willing to die, instead of choosing the path to the dark side, and that's something these people don't want to see because, in their eyes, their favourite baddie can't lose because he's wrong, he can only lose because the opponent is stronger, not because he's morally better. It's a sort of barbarian mindset, only the strongest will win, so if Luke doesn't want to fight anymore it means he's weak, so how can he win in the end?

My friend, it's really pointless to read these people or watch these videos. They don't want to understand, they are watching another franchise. One done in their head that doesn't match reality. Even if GL and all the authors are saying in simple terms that the story is about how good were the Jedi, they will never believe it, mostly because they don't want it, for whatever reason.

[blenderbender1811]

The Lars' GOT the Tobal Lense from a Jedi who delivered it as a gift from Qui-Gon to trade for Shmi's freedom. It's in one of the Star Wars Fact Files (#113). No, they didn't pass along her letter to Anakin because Anakin is already struggling with his attachment to Shmi, when even Shmi herself told him to go and not look back.

Yeah, Yoda COULD read his mind but the novelization makes it very clear he doesn't and that he thinks Anakin means Obi-Wan. Even if he did read his mind, he can't make Anakin accept that there is a possibility that childbirth will kill Padme. He can't make Padme see a doctor and see if something is wrong.

No, actually, you can have compassion without fear of loss. It comes from believing that life has value and that you shouldn't harm others without good cause. Galenth sounds a lot like Anakin 'killing toddlers is fine if it means my wife stays alive' Skywalker though. And while there are definitely versions of Batman and Superman that are written that way, there's just as many focused on 'this loss hurt me and I want to help other people by preventing similar losses'. Which, again - there's nothing wrong with preventing a loss if you can do it within reason. There is something wrong with refusing to accept it when it's happened and you can't of anything about it. Loss is part of life and you have to accept that, even if you can do something to prevent a specific one (like encouraging your wife to see a fucking OB/GYN). If you're stuck on how things are, then yes, you'll get toxic when you're afraid of change and losing it. Think less 'Bruce stopping a mugger from killing parents' and more 'sabotaging Dick Grayson trying to go to college because he doesn't want Dick to leave'. As for Clark, there's plenty of stories where his primary motivation is because he wants to help protect his planet because he loves it and he wants to live by the values his parents taught him (by which I mean Martha and John).

Tarkin decided to blow up Alderaan to punish Leia for being a rebel and to try to cow other rebels out of fighting the Empire. That's what the thing was built for. Why bother building a super weapon to intimidate rebels if you're not even a LITTLE worried they can overthrow you? He also tried to goad Luke to kill Anakin and join him and tries to kill him when he refuses because he doesn't want another force sensitive around. Yeah, he says for Luke to kill him to try to goad him to the dark side, but he has no intention of actually dying there. And again, when he fails, he tries to kill Luke so he doesn't have competition. There is more than one way to react to greed being threatened - in Palpatine's case, he goes to homicide.

@blenderbender1811 This post is meant to be a reblog of this bit, but since I'm most likely blocked by the OP, I can't do that, so I have to settle for this instead:

Okay, found the passage in question:

Orbital mirrors rotated, resolving the faint light of Coruscant's sun to erase the stars; fireships crosshatched the sky with contrails of chemical air scrubber, bleaching away the last reminders of the fires of days past; chill remnants of night slid down the High Council Tower of the Jedi Temple; and within the cloistered chamber itself, Obi-Wan was still trying to talk them out of it. "Yes, of course I trust him," he said patiently. "We can always trust Anakin to do what he thinks is right. But we can't trust him to do what he's told. He can't be made to simply obey. Believe me: I've been trying for many years." Conflicting currents of energy swirled and clashed in the Council Chamber. Traditionally, decisions of the Council were reached by quiet, mutual contemplation of the flow of the Force, until all the Council was of a single mind on the matter. But Obi-Wan knew of this tradition only by reputation, from tales in the archives and stories told by Masters whose tenure on the Council predated the return of the Sith. In the all-too-short years since Obi-Wan's own elevation, argument in this Chamber was more the rule than the exception. "An unintentional opportunity, the Chancellor has given us," Yoda said gravely. "A window he has opened into the operations of his office. Fools we would be, to close our eyes." "Then we should use someone else's eyes," Obi-Wan said "Forgive me, Master Yoda, but you just don't know him the way I do. None of you does. He is fiercely loyal, and there is not a gram of deception in him. You've all seen it; it's one of the arguments that some of you, here in this room, have used against elevating him to Master: he lacks true Jedi reserve, that's what you've said. And by that we all mean that he wears his emotions like a HoloNet banner. How can you ask him to lie to a friend—to spy upon him?" "That is why we must call upon a friend to ask him," said Agen Kolar in his gentle Zabrak baritone. "You don't understand. Don't make him choose between me and Palpatine—" "Why not?" asked the holopresence of Plo Koon from the bridge of Courageous, where he directed the Republic Navy strike force against the Separatist choke point in the Ywllandr system. "Do you fear you would lose such a contest?" "You don't know how much Palpatine's friendship has meant to him over the years. You're asking him to use that friendship as a weapon! To stab his friend in the back. Don't you understand what this will cost him, even if Palpatine is entirely innocent? Especially if he's innocent. Their relationship will never be the same—" "And that," Mace Windu said, "may be the best argument in favor of this plan. I have told you all what I have seen of the energy between Skywalker and the Supreme Chancellor. Anything that might distance young Skywalker from Palpatine's influence is worth the attempt." Obi-Wan didn't need to reach into the Force to know that he would lose this argument. He inclined his head. "I will, of course, abide by the ruling of this Council." "Doubt of that, none of us has." Yoda turned his green gaze on the other councilors. "But if to be done this is, decide we must how best to use him."

And, that's PRECISELY what I described happened. The bolded bit is my emphasis reinforcing my point.

[reyloeyesofmist]

Regarding Ben Solo (TLJ)

I think Kylo is unique because of this capacity he has for both Light and Dark. It's as if with everybody else one thing rules over the other and Sith were over 90% Dark and Jedi over 90% Light, so to speak. Ben Solo's misfurtune is that he was born with equal capacity for both and this is what Snoke tries to exploit to his gain. Anakin had a lot of Light in him, it's the same with Ben. Ben is like no other and this is what fascinates Snoke, this and his raw power, of course. But he isn't interested in training Rey the way he trained Kylo.

Snoke didn't even complete Kylo's training because he didn't want him to go full Sith/Dark, IMO. He wants him conflicted and unbalanced because then he is easier to control. Abuse victims never seem to get anything right, because as long as they keep on failing they'll depend on their abusers. Kylo's training wasn't supposed to be completed, not ever.

Kylo is in love with Rey, I know this wouldn't be possible in RL but SW is a fairy tale and he's coded as someone deeply in love, but he didn't enter that throne room with the idea of killing Snoke, just like Rey didn't imagine the Light Side without Luke and Leia and leading the Resistance herself. I think it's the same with Kylo, he was still trapped in Snoke's grasp and only beginning to realise he'd become his slave, so he thinks Rey will turn and they'll be both in the DS. As I see it, only his love for Rey and the hope for her loving him back made it possible for him to kill his tormentor.

I guess Han opened the first crack in his armour, coming back for him as he'd probably wanted so many times (“Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.”) but he wasn't still ready to break the chain of abuse and manipulation he'd suffered for years. Then there comes Rey, she also comes to his rescue. She loves him too, what's more, she believes in him like nobody else did before. This is a huge difference and Han already opened his eyes to some extent telling him Snoke was using him and then he'd crush him. This time he takes a huge step and kills his abuser but it still isn't enought.

Why not? Maybe because TLJ is the second movie in a trilogy, maybe because this is a fairy tale and three times is the charm. Either way, it's too soon for Kylo to join Rey, not yet. He proposed twice and two people who loved him came to his rescue but his proposals were rejected (twice) and the rescue missions didn't succeed (twice). In IX the "spell" will be broken. The spell, the chain of abuse/conditioning and it's consequences on Ben's psyche, it's the same, it'll be broken and the prodigal son will come back.

The question is where he'll return to, because the Galaxy can't be seen in black and white any more, so Kylo's Dark Side (which includes his sensuality, his passion, his bursts of anger or even his being overly emotional can't be crushed because that's who he is, with lights and shadows.

This story is about balance and love, about loving (like Rose loves Finn) and setting all living things free (like Rose does with the space horses).

Many people say Ben Solo has to save himself and he does, but he needs help. Rey is the only one who understand this and is willing to send herself to him in a pod to set him free. Someone still could come back, with Rey's help, like Mazz said.

This story is telling us Ben needed help and never got it, that sometimes people need help to save themselves and loving them is not enough because they also need support and acceptance. Otherwise they remain hopeless and lost in the Dark.

The storylines are intertwined and FinnRose is telling us what we can expect from Reylo because they are very much like Kylo and Rey and their stories are moving in the same direction. Also, Rose teaches Finn and the audience what really matters, saving what we love.

When they destroy the casino, during their unfulfilled mission, Finn is happy to have caused all that damage at least, but Rose teaches him that is empty, that what makes it worth it is setting the horses free. In the end this is what matters because there'll be more battles, the rich people in the casino will rebuild it again and go on selling weapons to both sides, so the Resistance is a long distance race and it's necessary to try once and again, but without forgetting those we love.

And this is where the Golden Trio failed. Although they were role models for the whole Galaxy they didn't manage to save what they loved, Ben Solo. And Ben was their future, their only hople, because this is what our children are, this is what young people are, hope for the future.

This doesn't make them bad, just human. What Luke did to Ben was his darkest moment, but he isn't evil, just human. If Han, Luke and Leia's failures and mistakes can be forgiven, what about Ben's? I hope he can be forgiven too.