#i also love robert and jocelyn

[tiredandoptimistic]

What I really enjoy about Luke and Maryse's interactions in City of Ashes is that they clearly grew up separate from each other. Both of them are in their late thirties, but they hold this image in their heads of who the other was when they were teenagers, when they were enthralled by Valentine's hateful rhetoric.

From how he describes them to Clary, it's clear that Luke looks down on the Lightwoods. He says that they were Valentine's closest lieutenants and the most dedicated to his doctrine, and yet he ignores the fact that he was Valentine's second-in-command for most of the Circle's existence. He knows that he had doubts at the time and then grew into a kind and accepting adult, but Robert and Maryse appeared dedicated to Valentine from the outside and have been separate from Luke ever since, so to him they must still be as cruel as they ever were. He sees himself as superior because he got out first, but forgets that he stuck around until Valentine literally told him to kill himself, while Robert and Maryse surrendered to the Clave voluntarily.

Then there's Maryse, who's still bitter over Luke's betrayal. Not because he turned against Valentine, but because he and Jocelyn set a trap that ended with every member of the Circle (other than the Lightwoods, Hodge, and Michael) being killed by the combined forces of the Clave and the Downworlders. Of course Maryse is being pretty hypocritical here, since she was fully in on the plan to murder a bunch of unarmed diplomats, but she does have a point that Luke and Jocelyn did nothing to protect their former friends. Their plan saved lives in the long run, but it resulted in far more bloodshed that night than Valentine's simple massacre.

After Valentine's supposed death, Jocelyn, Luke, Robert, and Maryse all went into a sort of retirement in New York City. For Luke and Jocelyn it was their mundane employment and for Maryse and Robert is was their place as Institute heads, but both couples spent fifteen years raising their kids and learning to be better people. By the time we see them in TMI, all four former circle members had come to terms with how atrocious Valentine had been and dedicated themselves to doing better with their adult lives, but since it happened in relative isolation, they all still remember each other as they were at age twenty. To Maryse, Luke is still the man who left his friends to die, and to Luke, Maryse is still the woman who stuck by a murderer until the end.

I just think it's very interesting that there are so few survivors of the Circle left in 2007, and barely any of them communicate with each other at all. Amatis was left alone in Idris, Hodge felt so abandoned by the Clave that he went back to Valentine, Robert and Maryse trapped themselves in a loveless marriage rather than give up the illusion of stability they'd built for their kids, Luke and Jocelyn denied their past until it came to find them, and Michael was killed with his family in a scheme that would never have worked if a single person came to check up on him in the ten years Valentine inhabited his life. They could have found a community through this common experience, but instead they saw each other as monsters for the things they all did.

[random-bean-allie]

Honestly, i wish Cassandra Clare would write more (flashbacks) about Luke and Valentine.

We're always told the Parabatai bond is something special, so to see two parabatais against each other like that- i'd just love to see more of how they were before Luke became a werewolf.

But honestly, what i'd like the most is knowing whether they ever thought of each other... after.

Does Luke ever get hit with a wave of sadness thinking about the good moments they had? Sure, he hated Valentine in the end and had every right to do so, but it's still normal to think back on the nice parts of even the most toxic friendships, it just happens.

Did Valentine ever think about what his life would be like if he still had his (not werewolf) parabatai by his side while he was training the Jonathans?

Just.. GIVE ME MORE ABOUT THOSE TWO!!

[witchlingcirce]

helloooo i just saw your céline big post... would you write one with your thoughts on maryse? i love herrr :)

- @light-wayland

There is actually no way and words that I could describe on how much I LOVE Maryse, like that is my no. 1 diva. In all honesty, I’d argue she was probably one the best (if the not the best) institute heads that we saw, but maybe I’m just crazy.

In all actuality, I find her a really interesting character. Mostly because of how she was in her time with the circle, vs how she is now.

Robert described Maryse as being such a passionate member of the circle, that he mostly stayed in it because of her. Which in the short story that we saw with her, it’s true. She was very passionate about the cause, she did very much believe in Valentine. HOWEVER; the way that the institute punishment and having kids changed her is honestly really interesting to me.

The way that the institute punishment affected her is really interesting to me, more or else because the punishment was about secluded them!! And I think the way that affected Maryse (and also by extension Robert but this isn’t ABOUT HIM) is interesting. More or else because this seclusion, and also her children ended up making her change for the better. IE: when she sees Valentine for the first time again she specifically says “I’m not your Maryse anymore”, and later on city of ashes she literally shoved her Naginta in the Imogen’s face being like “r we gonna fight Valentine or what”. And even so in COLS, I like the seen difference between her & Maryse when Jocelyn feels bad for the ex member, while Maryse stabs him- which I think is very telling about both characters.

I also do like her because she’s really nuanced throughout the book as well, so it’s not like she had a one point turn. Her throwing Jace out had good intentions, but ultimately wasnt really the best choice (I actually think this moment of the series is interesting !!), she tells Izzy about what Robert did to her, which ultimately affects how Izzy perceives relationships and also her own relationship with her father, I think how Maryse was towards Alec when he came out is a point of contention as well. It’s not that I think she was homophobic, or that she mistreated Alec in any sense at all- but he mentions how feels like his parents are ignoring it, which I find interesting.

So yeah, Maryse is a beyond interesting character who I love very dearly. I always thought Tessa sending her a letter in SOBH was a bit random but you don’t understand the HYPE I felt when I saw her name. She’s my queen, my diva. My beloved.

[im-out-of-it]

part six of season 2, episode 4 POOR IZZY “day of wrath”

127. I love the moments of Alec just making sure Izzy is okay and then picking her up and leaving 🥹

128. Jace: should I ignore my family (when it’s convenient) for her or choose the girl I would burn down the world for (and of course he was not going to choose Alec and Izzy first)

making Izzy his last resort. WHY DO THEY NOT CUT HIM OFF AND GO OFF ON HIM!!!!!! ALEC JUST RISKED HIS LIFE FOR JACE AND HE CANT EVEN CHOOSE IZZY FIRST BLOODY FUCKING HELL

129. but are we really surprised that he would choose clary over Izzy? no at least I’m not

130. clary: but what about me?

131. am I sad for her that her mom is dead? maybe for a little bit but it doesn’t excuse all the horrible things Jocelyn and clary have done. killing Jocelyn was one of the best decisions the show could have possibly made. I just hate what this does to Alec

132. because let’s be real - if Jocelyn was alive and in idris, would clary go and visit her? would she live with her? no, she would forget Jocelyn

133. and I’m not sorry Jocelyn is dead. Clary has done all kinds of shit since coming here and Jocelyn had no care in the world if it meant Alec had to almost die to protect clary. Jace would do anything to protect clary even if it meant murdering millions. Aline even asks how many lives clary is worth and jace says everything so he would happily burn the world down for her. Jace was literally going to choose to see clary first instead of Isabelle. this so called family jace goes on and on about doesn’t mean shit to him. he changed his mind more than fucking Mother Nature. and yes it disgusts me how he treats Alec and Izzy when they have been nothing but kind to him and always go out of their way to help and protect him

134. Jace does not care about Alec about Izzy about anyone who isn’t clary. that’s not romantic, it’s fucking toxic. this is a pure fucking toxic affair that is not romantic, it’s not cute, it’s not anything a young woman, child, any boy, of any gender or literally any being should choose for themselves. this isn’t passion. look at Alec and Magnus- that’s passion. that’s healthy, it’s romantic. show Malec never book Malec. Jace and clary are both toxic people but together, they’re more of an insufferable disease. and it’s sad that this is for young girls audience because this is fucking toxic at its finest

135. let’s talk about all Alec has endured:

he’s almost died three times now, twice for jace

he almost lost Izzy because of jace and clary’s actions of taking the cup (and Alec is responsible for the whole meliorn thing but at least he tried to make amends)

Alec almost gets married while trying to deal with coming out to a homophobic clave

Alec constantly gets betrayed and lied to from jace

he never gets to process his feelings because you know jace and clary will make it about them and create problems for Alec

it does get better for Alec but from season one to early season two it’s fucking hell for Alec!!!!!!!!!

Alec never feels good enough and Maryse practically shuns him (also love when Alec stands up for himself)

and Robert and Maryse have been making Alec feel like shit forever

he’s had to deal with his upcoming problems with Magnus

all the shit clary has made him go through and now he kills her mother that was no fault of his own

THIS MAN GOES THROUGH TOO MUCH AND HE DESPERATELY NEEDS A BREAK

and the way jace treats Alec doesn’t get spoken up enough. Jace will never choose Alec but Alec has almost died so many times protecting him

Alec needed to properly go off

also not sure if I posted this but love young Izzy protecting and loving her brother

LEAVE MY MAN ALEC AND MAGNUS ALONE SO THEY CAN BE HAPPY and I’m so not prepared for Alec’s grief

and I lied, this wasn’t short but I want to showcase and talk about how much Alec actually goes through. this man hardly gets a break. I’m just happy in the end that he is and Magnus are happy together. Alec and Magnus deserve all the happiness

but 135 was the number and thank you for joining why does Alec keep getting put through the ringer and Jocelyn is finally gone discussion post and bitchfest and I will see y’all soon for episode 5 ✨ thanks y’all for joining me ⚔️🫶🏼🏹

[atopvisenyashill]

Can you tell us more about your female Joffrey/Cersei only has daughters au?

okay so i can’t remember if it was @chena-h or @shunnedmorlock bc both of them were talking about how cersei would lose her mind over this, but i DO think there’s a high chance cersei feels her daughter is the ymbq. i think she’d become terrified that her oldest is going to kill her two youngest and herself. i think jaime does not take her hostile turn towards their oldest seriously (the way he doesn’t take her hostility towards tyrion seriously literally until tyrion is on death’s row).

not concrete yet but i think i’ve decided on jocelyn, myrcella, and *coughs* lucinda or tyana for the names. i think cersei is clearly picking names that are westerlander And stormlander names as a dig at robert (we Don’t have any other myrcella’s so it’s hard to be sure but the westerlands love to throw a bunch of e’s and y’s in their names and the stormlanders love a three syllable (cassana, ravella, argella, cassandra, cyrenna, johanna, etc etc) so it feels like a safe assumption to make). Jocelyn is common enough while also stormlander associated, also it’s a J haha. I haven’t found a T name for a girl that crosses over both except tya lannister/tyana wylde, but i Do know there’s lucinda crossover, and the joke of like, tommen being named for a lannister king but being so young & sweet and unable to live up to that name vs lucinda being given the most old lady name imaginable is funny to me. wish we had more lannister queen names 😭

i think after daughter number three, jon arryn sits all three baratheon boys down and goes “one of you needs to have a fucking son, i just finally did it, now one of you needs to please for the love of the seven” and robert goes WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU JUST SAY. ARE THE LORDS CLAIMING THEY *WOULDNT* FOLLOW MY DAUGHTER? THEYRE GONNA PASS HER UP FOR WHOMST EXACTLY. A FUCKING PENROSE? THAT NEWBORN VELARYON? FOR THAT DRAGONSPAWN ACROSS THE SEA? I DONT THINK SO! and before jon can finish his sentence Robert is officially naming Jocelyn the heir to the iron throne TO BE QUEEN when he dies, and everyone who doesn’t like it can suck shit.

I think jon can talk robert into putting a little clause in there that says like “if i have a true born son, he’ll go before Jocelyn but if that time never comes, Jocelyn WILL succeed me as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and the crown will pass to her first born son.” but robert is really serious about like,,,, regardless of if stannis or renly have a son, it’s ROBERT’S KID that comes next, not one of those two dweebs.

Tywin imo thinks Cersei Fucked Up Somehow. He’s not saying he won’t back Jocelyn, but he IS saying if Cersei had just had a boy, there wouldn’t be this problem. He's blaming this on Cersei and really mad because of course Genna wrote him a mean letter saying if Tywin refuses to acknowledge Tyrion as heir, there’s always Cersei and her girls and it pissed him off so much he sat in silence gaping at Kevan for three straight hours.

Tyrion "History Understander And Enjoyer" Lannister finds this hilarious. He literally cannot stop laughing at how absurd this all is.

Jocelyn…..okay so the way i see joffrey is joffrey is a kid just RULED by his first, base instinct. his instincts, his core emotions, tell him to love and trust both robert and cersei, and imo he twists himself into a MONSTER to try to appeal to both of them. no one else matters - not his siblings, not his uncle, not his grandfather, not the realm. he needs to be the sort of vicious person they could BOTH be proud of, he needs to be BETTER THAN THEM BOTH AT VIOLENCE, so he absorbs all of their faults and none of their virtues.

ANYWAYS, so this translating to a girl - who idolizes her violent father, loves & resents her manipulative and miserable mother, suspects but would NEVER say out loud the truth about her paternity, fucking HATES all of her uncles - imo means she’s got a reputation for being unpleasant & hypercritical, can’t hold onto a lady or a maid because she straight up slaps them when they fuck up, sexually humiliates the court fool (hashtag serving saera realness), like i think she is known for being Gorgeous And Difficult. i’m trying to think of a comparison. A mean girl but not nearly as charming because under all that vileness is a sullen little shithead who can and will throw a tantrum to get her way. Regina George but significantly more pathetic. Cordelia Chase without the heart. All the popularity of Quinn Fabray all the pathetic hysterics of Rachel Berry none of the intelligence of either girl.

Robert does Not enjoy her for a long time, same as canon. She looks exactly like Cersei, she’s catty and mean to everyone around her like Cersei, and while she quickly dropped the habit, she had a worrying violent streak as a little girl that Robert misliked so much he nearly beat her to death over it. It wasn’t cute and outdoorsy like Lyanna, it was the exact same cat killing shit. Cersei really loves and gets along with her in the beginning. She’s not the sweet perfect daughter Myrcella is, but she’s a mini Cersei, and Cersei loves having An Ally Against Robert.

THEN. She’s named heir and this dynamic completely flips. Cersei becomes distant, paranoid, essentially treating her like she does Sansa, with a sort of threatening affection, and Robert doesn’t become a doting father overnight but he DOES expand her education, and let her be Jon Arryn’s cupbearer, and drunkenly rants to her about his battle days. Cersei becomes determined to have a son.

HOWEVER. When her sadistic streak doesn’t go away by like 10, I do think Robert flips on her again. He has no fucking intention of unnaming her, especially because he hasn’t had another son, but I think a girl with a hard time controlling her temper would stand out in a worse way, and Robert would worry if she’s TOO much like her mother, especially when he can’t get her to hold onto a lady to give her another influence. the thing is, now that cersei is convinced jocelyn is going to destroy her, she doesn’t have another parent to run to. does she cling harder to robert, turn to someone else? if sandor is still her personal guard, i mean jesus fucking christ how is THAT going.

Been going back and forth on if this means Stannis brings Shireen to court. That Robert & Jon, hoping to straighten Jocelyn out, would try to give her a companion in sweet Shireen.

I’ve also been debating like,,, who Robert would betroth her to once Jon Arryn is killed (because Petyr & Lysa are still doing their thing, so even regardless of if, maybe, Stannis tries slightly harder to have a son, and winds up having another kid, or Cersei & Jaime have yet another daughter even after their third, Jon Arryn will still die and there’s no one else Robert would trust as Hand than Ned. Altho what i AM debating is whether this speeds the plot up a bit more by Robert asking for a betrothal AND a lady’s companion early? Because I think Jocelyn becomes a problem Jon wants to unseat much quicker, so he and Stannis wind up suspecting something is up with her a little quicker?? idk i’m still thinking it out). BUT ANYWAYS. Because Robb is three years older, and Bran is four years younger, and i’m kind of assuming they’d do a Myriah thing instead of a Laenor thing bc Robb has two younger brothers? So Robb would no longer inherit Winterfell, Bran would? Would they WANT a husband four years younger rather than three years older?

anyways that’s like, my characterization. i’m really getting into the weeds with this one because i kind of love it. there’s two like, forks in the road i think i could go here and i’ve been debating between them -

I’m just unsure if Jon doesn’t stumble on the incest earlier. It might not be TOO much earlier, i mean joffrey is only 12 when jon dies but a year? two years? especially if cersei has another blond haired green eyed daughter. if he can genuinely put the pieces together faster, before he starts talking about sending sweetrobin away, that’s a big change. but if he figures it out faster AND is also like “hey can i send sweetrobin to your place i know he’s like five but things are gonna get dicey here and also i want to get him away from lysa” that means agot still essentially happens (the catalyst of it) just earlier.

on the other hand, does robert approach ned about a betrothal earlier because of the inheritance issue with robb? does BRAN grow up heir to winterfell and robb with the knowledge he may one day be king consort of westeros? which also leads me to how robert would approach this - would he take the excuse to visit Ned to ask for this so they can hammer out the details? does robert just fully give up on the idea of having a son at some point, and THATS when he asks Ned, completely independently of whatever scheming Jon Arryn is doing?

so there’s one au where lysa still offs jon arryn, and agot plays out but with robert asking for robb, sansa, and arya to come south with ned bc robb is gonna marry jocelyn.

and then of course there’s another branch where jon exposes the incest earlier and…would varys try to off him? would lf take the opportunity to sow some chaos be ensuring the lannisters stay in power? the moment robert knows, he’s storming cersei’s rooms to murder them all, but if cersei finds out beforehand, she and jaime are going to REACT.

[wikitpowers]

If you could have a spinoff of any group of tsc characters, who would you choose? (I’d personally want more ragnor, Raphael, and Magnus content bc the few scenes we got do the three of them in the bane chronicles were so funny 😭😭)

I AGREE THOSE CHARACTERS TOGETHER WOULD BE AMAZING AND I NEED A SERIES WITH ALL OF THEM + CATARINA!!!

other than those three though, i would desperately wanna see a kit, ash and kieran because they would just have such a funny dynamic i'm sure of it and i wanna see them in faerie and just vibing (with their love interests ofc😌)

ALSO THE CIRCLE MEMBERS!!! a series that shows us how the circle was formed and the uprising and everything! would be so cool to see michael wayland (i love that man) and robert and their chaotic energy and what they're parabatai bond was like for them, and then how maryse shifted the dynamic and young jocelyn and luke would be so cool to see, their friendship and growing up together *sniffs*

and i'm so interested in stephen and amatis's love story (+ céline's role in the circle and what her relationship with stephen was like) like that would be so cool ahhhhh GET ME THIS SERIES CASSIE PLS

[light-wayland]

There ain't no way you make me give you a ranked list of Circle members and get away with not making your own. C'mon, tell me! Who're your most and least favourite of the circle gang?

naive of you to assume i wasn’t going to send you one anyway. i think i like all circle members, only the top 3 are definitive, everything after depends on the mood so i won't even number

Robert Lightwood. he's only my all time favorite character and i think about him every minute of my existence since i've read The Evil We Love all those years ago. nothing special

Michael Wayland. this adorable little man crawled into the grossest deeps of robert's grumpy cold heart and said "There's nothing wrong with you, Robert." and got his heart broken horribly. in the process turned waywood into my all time favorite ship and changed my life. thanks man

Maryse Lightwood. gaslight gatekeep girlboss? except that she was the gaslighted one i think... anyway, she put up with robert for 24 freaking years, and post-michael robert was so annoying. mother. but also literally badass mom. i wish we understood her better.

Luke Garroway. it's giving father figure and can be shipped with several people. at the same time he's an asshole who doesn’t aknowledge his own assholery and that gives him depth because it's more realistic than let's say robert who thinks everything he does is a unexcusable mistake

Valentine Morgenstern. [redacted] but what he and luke have going is kinda hot not gonna lie

Stephen Herondale. my lightwood loving bias would usually stop me from touching a golden annoying mf even with a ten foot pole but this one can and will be poked with a sharp ten foot pole because like maryse he is somehow nasty enough to put up with robert's grumpy face and he's also a huge loser

Jocelyn Fairchild. luke's female half but with not page time enough to be cool. i think a problem is that her character on page doesn’t live up to what's built around her, even less than luke, and that makes her underwhelming, but i'm her apologist when it comes to her decisions as a mother, i will choose her over her biological son anytime

Hodge Starkweather. deserves better. he was stuck in the same house with robert and maryse for 15 years. that's punishment enough if we're being real

Céline Montclaire. i understand why some readers love her. she's kind but has a selfish side, which makes her human. on practice she's too nice to me, and not nasty enough to put up with robert

Amatis Graymark. i genuinely like her and stephen as a couple i just don't care much about her individually, which is a shame because her story is interesting. i guess she has a similar problem as jocelyn

i think all circle members are interesting characters so in my head they're awesome. i hope this list satisfies you

[ladyhindsight]

I’m still in sort of disbelief how Clare thought the canoodling part of the ending scene of this chapter was structured well or even well motivated. How it plays out just paints a pretty clear picture of Clare’s priorities and intentions as a story-teller.

Sometimes some things, especially ill-fitting and ill-timed almost-sex scenes just don’t need to happen, you know.

The chapter opens up with Team Good making their way to Luke’s farm upstate to summon Raziel. They get to talking about Alec’s sexuality and how the Lightwoods are taking it because of a joke Isabelle makes.

This message about Robert is rather relevant here. Because, like R points out, the narrative surrounding Robert is incohesive at best, and his characterization fluctuates wherever the writing needs to without much consistency. There's a lot of fun discussion points about Robert (and Maryse) under his tag on the blog.

Yes, Robert escaped to Idris to get away from his gay son that he loved, not to run for the position of the Inquisitor.

→ No phones in Idris, how would've Robert asked about the trip anyway?

�� Jocelyn doesn’t like Jace (for her own reasons), so she never asks about Jace (Clary complains about this in City of Fallen Angels). → Robert doesn’t care about Magnus (for his own reasons which are a bit complicated and related to the Circle), so he never asks about Magnus.

→ Like the eye color is even guaranteed? Of course this highlights the idiotic opinions of bigoted people, but at the same time, that’s the best you managed to concoct? THE EYES. Though it goes with the little paper cuts for sure.

They are almost at the farm, and we cut to Team Evil. Clary has been sleeping but wakes up when she hears The Boys talking. Jace has been somewhere but would like to see Clary now. Something is off about their exchange and we learn why once Jace goes to see Clary.

We learn that Lilith’s rune on Jace’s chest has been damaged and that he’s momentarily himself again.

The pugio was a dagger used by Roman soldiers as a sidearm. I don’t understand why Jace calls it that here when he later talks about an aegis with which Magdalena stabs him and how the aegis burned Lilith’s Mark.

↓

Again with the em dashes. “She staggered back and grabbed for her worktable, she threw it at me.” I can’t.

→ She staggered back and gabbed for her worktable. There was powdered adamas on it—she threw it at me.

Also “I cried out as she drove it towards my chest”? Awfully poetic retelling of the events that were basically I just kinda shouted when she tried to stab me in the chest.

This is, if I may say, a preposterous claim. He really isn’t or wasn’t. See, Alec, for one. Let’s not rewrite history.

This scene started out nice, the way Clary tries to comfort Jace. As if there could be this lovely and nice intimacy between them that doesn’t need the constant fervor.

…Aaand it’s ruined because everything has to get hot and heavy and passionate between them.

It’s funny how intentionally hilarious this whole conversation of it’s me, that is not me, it’s the other me, the not me me, this you, no the other you, the other me is. Such a mess.

Oh hey, you remembered.

Jace then finally gets to the actual point of what happened when he was away. He also finally reveals what Sebastian’s actual plans are, which, you’d think, would take precedence over wondering whether this is the time to have sex for the first time. But what do I know.

Obviously they can’t have the make-out/almost-sex scene once Jace reveals he took the cup from Magdalena and murdered her so all of the physicality needs to happen before that. What I am saying is, it didn’t need to happen at all because the timing was inappropriate considering the following revelations. Intimacy between characters isn’t always being incredibly horny, especially when just comforting one another.

So far Clary and Not-Jace have been doing this every given opportunity, and I understand that it’s somehow different with Actual-Jace, though writing-wise not at all.

So great that Jace finally got to the point. We almost lost this information because they wanted to bang. Anyway. Now that’s done with. Jace decides he needs to give the cup and himself up to the Clave before he returns to his controlled state, and that’s the end of that bullshit.

[flyingupward]

new muse list!

okay folks ! first step in the revamp is a shiny new muse list ! i've mostly included muses that i tend to have a lot of muse for or that i've written for a long time. however, if there's someone i used to write that you miss from this blog, shoot me a message. odds are, i'll still love to write them with you !

list is under the cut. thank you all for your patience !

if you want to start sending me asks and stuff now, i'll reblog a couple of memes ? i might be a little slow in responding though as my chronic illness is pretty bad right now. but i'm really looking forward to being back here with you all !

stella's working muse list c. dec 2024

the archangels: GABRIEL, MICHAEL, and RAPHAEL - mythology

CASSANDRA BIANCHI - the blacklist

DELILAH BRIARWOOD - critical role

JOYCE BYERS - stranger things

SAMANTHA CARTER - stargate

KARA DANVERS/SUPERGIRL - dc tv

JOCELYN FRAY - the shadowhunter chronicles

ALMA GARRET - deadwood

RIZA HAWKEYE - fullmetal alchemist: brotherhood

TINA KENNARD - the l word

KEYLETH OF THE AIR ASHARI - critical role

ELAINA LASKO - original character

HELEN MAGNUS - sanctuary

JULIA MCNAMARA - nip/tuck

MAGDELENA MILLS - once upon a time (oc)

RAQUEL MURILLO - la casa del papel

CATHERINE PARR - historical (also with a six verse)

PERSEPHONE - mythology

MAUREEN ROBINSON - lost in space

DANA SCULLY - the x-files

ELIZABETH SINSKEY - the robert langdon series

CALLIE STEVENSON - goliath (divergent)

MYFANWY THOMAS - the checquy files (book based)

ALLURA VYSOREN - critical role

STACY WARNER - house md

EMMA WHITMORE - timeless

[tiredandoptimistic]

TSC Fandom Survey Results

The time has finally come for me to share my data! For those unaware, I've spent the past week running a survey in which people ranked TSC books, characters, and ships. In the end, 50 people filled out my survey, which is way more than I expected! About 23% of the people who looked at the survey filled it out, and everyone who started finished it.

First off I'll post the simple rankings from each category, and below the cut I'll show the more complex results with explanations for why people voted the way they did.

Best series: 1. The Infernal Devices 2. The Mortal Instruments 3. The Dark Artifices 4. The Last Hours 5. The Eldest Curses 6. The Wicked Powers 7. The Secret Treasons

Best main girl: 1. Tessa Gray 2. Clary Fairchild 3. Emma Carstairs 4. Cordelia Carstairs 5. Dru Blackthorn

Best main couple: 1. Will/Tessa/Jem 2. Will/Tessa 3. Clary/Jace 4. Jem/Tessa 5. Julian/Emma 6. James/Cordelia 7. Dru/Ash

Best side couple: 1. Magnus/Alec 2. Simon/Isabelle 3. Thomas/Alastair 4. Kit/Ty 5. Kieran/Mark/Cristina 6. Charlotte/Henry 7. Sophie/Gideon 8. Gabriel/Cecily 9. Helen/Aline 10. Grace/Christopher 11. Gwyn/Diana 12. Lucie/Jesse 13. Ari/Anna

Best side character: 1. Raphael Santiago 2. Lily Chen 3. Maia Roberts 4. Ragnor Fell 5. George Lovelace 6. Catarina Loss 7. Livvy Blackthorn 8. Jessamine Lovelace 9. Luke Graymark 10. Jocelyn Fairchild 11. Maryse Lightwood 12. Eugenia Lightwood 13. Jordan Kyle 14. Robert Lightwood 15. Jaime Rosales 16. Michael Wayland 17. Amatis Graymark 18. Camille Belcourt 19. Nate Gray 20. Charles Fairchild

Best younger sibling/child: 1. Max Lightwood-Bane 2. Rafael Lightwood-Bane 3. Mina Carstairs 4. Max Lightwood 5. Tavvy Blackthorn 6. Alex Lightwood 7. Zachary Carstairs

Best villain: 1. Sebastian Morgenstern 2. Valentine Morgenstern 3. Annabel Blackthorn 4. Malcolm Fade 5. Axel Mortmain 6. Asmodeus 7. Shinyun Jung 8. Benedict Lightwood 9. Tatiana Blackthorn 10. Belial

Best side book: 1. Tales From the Shadowhunter Academy 2. Ghosts of the Shadow Market 3. The Bane Chronicles 4. Secrets of Blackthorn Hall 5. An Illustrated History of Notable Shadowhunters and Denizens of Downworld 6. The Shadowhunter's Codex 7. Better in Black 8. A Sea Change

Huzzah! Putting this all together has been so much fun for me, and I want to quickly thank everybody who participated! I also want to remind everyone that this was just for fun, and no reason to get mad at anybody. We're obviously never gonna agree on everything, we just need to respect each other's opinions.

If you want to know the nitty gritty of how every character was ranked, how the different series measured up against each other across categories, and why people like or dislike various books and characters, then keep reading below the cut! I made a spreadsheet, please come gaze upon my beautiful spreadsheet.

Here we go, time for the real shit!

Be warned, you will probably read mean things about characters you love and nice things about characters you hate. Angry rants about how you can't believe anyone would think that way belong in DMs to your friends, not the notes of my post. I do welcome discussion, just nothing that's targeted at other people. Also, I will be doing my best to explain people's opinions, that doesn't mean that I agree with them. I'm just trying to document. If I'm sharing my genuine personal opinion on anything, I'll make that clear.

You'll be seeing screenshots from my big spreadsheet throughout this thing. Here's your key: Columns represent characters/ships/series, rows represent a ranking. Each cell shows how many people assigned that rank to that character (for example, the intersection of 3 and Sizzy will be the number of people who voted Sizzy as their second favorite side ship). At the bottom there will be the average rank this character received, which was calculated by the program I used for the survey. I have all the columns color coordinated by which series each character/ship belongs to, and each column will have one box outlined which shows the rank that character received most often (as in, the intersection of Sizzy and 3 is outlined because Sizzy got more #3 votes than #1 #2 #4 or #5). Some columns have multiple boxes outlined, in the case of ties.

Make sense?

Alright, let's go!

First off, it's everyone's favorite series. As you can see, TID was significantly ahead of all the others. TMI and TDA were neck and neck, frequently switching back and forth for that #2 spot. TLH was a bit lower than the other three, and TEC, TWP, and TST all ranked dramatically lower.

To explain why they liked TID, people talked about finding the series nostalgic, enjoying how the characters are woven into the plot, the historical setting, and how it expands the worldbuilding of TSC while still working as a contained story. People also mentioned enjoying specific characters like Will, Jessamine, and Gabriel. By far the most common comment though was just that people love Herongraystairs. The only negative comments came from people who said that they didn't find the concept interesting, and were disappointed by the lack of their favorite modern characters.

Talking about TMI, the most common positive comments were that the series was fun, nostalgic, and had the best cast of characters (specifically Alec, Magnus, and Simon). People also enjoy the modern setting, the interpersonal relationships (especially Malec), and how the world is seen to develop from where it was in the historical era. TMI has the fewest haters, but some people said that they just didn't find it as captivating as later series, or that they were put off by the incest plotline. I also received the criticism that the characters are annoying, and that the story could have been compressed into fewer books.

For TDA, a lot of people mentioned finding the characters relatable, enjoying the plot, and liking the Blackthorn family dynamic. The characters and ships who got specific shout-outs were Blackstairs, Kierarktina, and Mark. People also like the modern setting, found it to be emotional, and think that it effectively juggles a large cast of characters. Plus, people appreciate getting autistic representation from Ty. It has a solid number of detractors too, who say that they don't like Blackstairs (especially Julian), Thule, the Cohort, or the focus on Faerie politics. They also say that it has too many plotlines, takes itself too seriously, and that the last book (Queen of Air and Darkness) made them drop the series.

While TLH was ranked last of the main series, I'd like to point out that it has the same number of #1 votes as TDA, signaling that it has a similar number of intense fans. The difference really comes in with the lack of #2 or #3 votes, showing that people don't tend to be casual fans of the series. By far the most popular thing brought up by TLH enjoyers is the characters, and how they build an interconnected web with lots of fun dynamics (including developed family dynamics). People also like the number of queer and POC characters, the cozy vibe, the historical setting, the drama, and the ships (especially Herondaisy). The most common critiques all come back to the plot; that the main story is weak or even incoherent, and the series is stretched too thin across a number of side plots. People also dislike the lack of communication, and think that the characters don't feel like friends. Another complaint is that the world doesn't feel like a natural extension of TID, especially because the characters are so invested in mundane social structures like balls and reputations.

TEC is our first truly controversial series, and the main divide seems to be between people who think it's unnecessary fan service, and fans who feel serviced. The reasons I was given to like the series are the additional page time for Malec and the TMI gang, and that it fleshed out the TMI timeline. On the negative side, people say that it feels like a cash grab and that LBOTW didn't live up to the expectations set by RSOM. Overall though, the biggest reason that people ranked it so low was just that they hadn't read it.

Here's where we get into the series that were doomed to fail in the rankings because none of us have even read them. While TWP has a solid number of prospective fans ranking it in their top three, most people left it at the bottom because it hasn't come out yet. The people who expect to enjoy the series are the ones who enjoyed Dru, Kit, and Ty in TDA, and the ones who expect to dislike it are the ones who didn't enjoy those three in TDA.

So, TST was probably not fair to include in this list because I got a solid number of respondents who hadn't even heard of it, but I'm convinced that if it were ever to come out it would be in my top two series overall, and I want to see what the people think. While it didn't get anybody voting it #1 based on potential like TWP did, there were still some people saying that they would be excited to read it because of Waywood, the Luke/Jocelyn/Valentine drama, and the morally gray characters. On the other hand, there's the people who just don't care about the Circle and don't want to read about them.

For main girls, Tessa, Clary, and Emma were all pretty close in the average rankings. Cordelia and Dru fell a bit behind, but also had their share of committed fans.

When talking about Tessa, people brought up her intelligence, maturity, and their nostalgia for her character. They also like that she's a book lover, has cool powers, isn't annoying, starts out messy before maturing, and is strong-willed. By far though, the most common comment was that they found her relatable. The downside to this relatability is that her detractors say she feels like an obvious reader insert, and is overshadowed by more interesting characters like Will, Jem, and Jessamine.

Clary had the most positive comments, and people love that she's funny, creative, blunt, fearless, iconic, and handles all the bullshit the world throws at her. (My personal favorite comment was the person who called her "my beautiful unhinged princess"). More than anything though, people love Clary for her development. She starts out as a relatable 15-year-old, but over the course of six TMI books and all her later appearances, she grows into a hero. She's also of course incredibly nostalgic, since most TSC fans were introduced to the world by either her or Tessa. On the downside, people say that she works better as a side character than a protagonist, and that she's overshadowed by the rest of TMI. They also think that she made bad choices throughout the series, and find her annoying.

What people love about Emma is that she's strong, funny, complex, badass, and a bit of an asshole. They like that she's allowed to have an attitude and still be treated as a cool and compelling woman by the narrative and the other characters. Plus, she comes across as having a clear voice that makes her feel like somebody they could be friends with in real life. Most of the people with specific complaints about her either didn't like TDA overall, or thought she was treated as an extension of Julian who never fulfilled her individual potential. Some people also found her badass bad bitch persona to be more exhausting than endearing.

Cordelia is probably the most controversial character in this category, with long lists of both positive and negative traits given by the fandom. On the bright side, she's fierce, badass, kind, and relatable. People also like to see a woman of color thriving in 1903 London, and how she embodies the concept of a warrior. Looking to the negative, people largely just don't find her particularly engaging. They say that she's inconsistant, flat, and had no development after Chain of Gold. They also complained about her making bad decisions and having a weak relationship with Lucie.

Everybody had the least to say about Dru, and most people said that they ranked her last just because they don't know enough about her to like her more than the established characters. What her fans do enjoy is that she's relatable, blunt, sassy, and a fat goth girl who's giving 2015 tumblr emo. The only real complaint people had was that they found her annoying in TDA, but everyone who left comments like that also acknowledged that she was 13 in TDA and will probably be more engaging once TWP gives her time in the spotlight.

Moving into the main couples, TID continues to sweep as Herongraystairs takes the top spot (and came incredibly close to taking the entirety of the top three). After that, the couples are spaced out pretty equally and follow the same pattern established by the previous two categories.

Now, Herongraystairs received arguably the most bonkers majority in this entire survey. Nearly half of respondents ranked it as their #1, and only a couple outliers put it in their bottom three. What everybody loves about this ship is the angst, how willing they were to sacrifice for each other, the raw emotions, how perfectly the three balance each other, and the ideas about fate. They also like how all three of them are compelling characters on their own, have unique relationships in pairs (Wessa, Jessa, Heronstairs), and work even better as a complete unit. Will and Jem already loved each other, but they could only fully develop once they had Tessa; creating this tragic yet beautiful cloud of possibility. People also like the polyamorous aspect, and wish that they were a canon three way relationship. More than anything else though, what was commented again and again was simply "they loved each other so much." What else can you say? Well, I can say why a couple of people dislike the ship. The only reasons I was given was that the person didn't like TID overall, and that they prefer Jem and Will with a purely platonic parabatai bond.

Moving on to Wessa, people like their banter, the crazy build up to their relationship, and how they bonded over books. They also love how gutwrenching the relationship is, especially once you get to the epilogue of Clockwork Princess. The only complaint anybody had was that they aren't Herongraystairs, and the relationship is incomplete without Jem.

People of course love Clace for the nostalgia factor and how it's the relationship that introduced them to TSC, but most importantly people like how the two of them are just so horribly down bad for each other. They're cute, fun, and have good chemistry; forming the heart of the TMI gang and of the Shadowhunters world. What people don't like is that they're basic, getting overshadowed by other couples in their own series. The upside is that they get better in their appearances that came after TMI. There are of course also the people who don't like the incest plotline and felt uncomfortable reading about that era of their relationship.

Jessa was solidly in third for most of this survey, but Clace pulled ahead of them in the last day. Though they came in behind the other TID ships, they're still beloved by the fandom. People like their dynamic and enjoy Jem as a character. The downside is that the ship makes them sad because of the tragedy of their situation, doesn't include Will, and gets overused in the modern series.

As for Blackstairs, people see their relationship as beautiful, a good example of friends to lovers/forbidden romance, and worked in well with the plot of TDA. People also like the soulmate aspect. Their haters sure had a lot to say to counterbalance that though, and complained about how the relationship is melodramatic, overly intense, toxic, and codependant. I also got a few respondants who said that they just dislike Emma and Julian as individuals, and that Julian's behavior towards Emma is alarming.

Herondaisy is continuing TLH's grand tradition of coming in near the end while still maintaining a dedicated team of fans. The good stuff is how much James loved Cordelia, and that he spent so long unable to say anything, but once he was free from the Gracelet he never let her forget his devotion. Their love was powerful enough to break a hellish enchantment, but still felt like a friendship built on a shared interests like books and stories. The most common complaint about this relationship was miscommunication, dislike of James or Cordelia as characters, and not understanding why the two like each other (other than mutual attraction). There's also people who just don't like TLH and generally aren't invested in their story. The other main complaint was that the James/Grace and Cordelia/Matthew subplots felt unnecessary and overly drawn out (which of course connects back to the miscommunication issue).

Morgenthorn suffers from the same issue as the other TWP representatives, and largely got low marks because their books aren't out yet. Some people think they're shaping up to be iconic though, while others still aren't sold on the premise.

The side ships are where things start to really heat up. Based on their average rank, the pairs form a couple distinct tiers. First, is Malec, Sizzy, Thomastair, and Kitty (the fan favorites), next is Kierarktina, Chenry, Sophideon, and Gabrily making up the middle of the pack, then we have the less popular Haline, Gracetopher, Gwynburn, and Ghostwriter, and in dead last with by far the lowest score there's Arianna. (Sorry to the u-haul lesbians). I think it's quite interesting how most of the ships are clumped together with other ships from the same series.

I'm guessing we all knew that Malec was gonna come in first. People love the nostalgia factor, of course, and they also love how the ship is queer, iconic, and just generally sweet. It's a case of opposites attract where the two of them help each other grow and reach for things they never thought possible. Both Alec and Magnus believed that they'd never be truly loved for who they were, and yet together they were able to create a life and family. Not a single person had a bad thing to say about these two.

Continuing the popularity of the TMI gang, Sizzy came shockingly close to beating Malec for first. They didn't get as many #1 votes as the other top ships, but they were still voted highly by more or less everyone. On the surface this couple is cute and funny, but what people really love is how perfectly they match each other. While they look like opposites at first, they're actually incredibly well-balanced. Everyone expected Isabelle to break Simon's heart, but he's able to stand up to her without being a dick and he sees her for who she really is under all her defensiveness. Plus, they're great individual characters and encourage each other to grow. They only negative comment they got was one person who finds them annoying.

Next up, Thomastair comes in to prove that there are at least some parts of TLH that are pretty universally adored. People like how Thomas saw the good in Alastair from the start, and watching his schoolboy crush develop into a mature romance. They like how Thomas helped Alastair accept love into his life, and Alastair encouraged Thomas to become confident in himself. The two of them were able to create their own world in Paris, which allowed them to escape the roles they felt trapped in. The characters are of course loved as individuals, and people got especially attached to Alastair and think that he deserves good things. People also like their communication skills, in contrast with other TLH couples. The only real complains people had with the ship was that it's connected to a series they dislike overall, and falls into the bully x victim trope.

Kitty is another ship that anybody who spends any length of time in the fandom will not be surprised to see in the top quarter of this list. They're beloved as characters, and even people who dislike TDA say that they were some of the best stuff in it. Fans enjoy how Kit understood Ty from the start and Ty felt truly comfortable with Kit. They also like how Kit can't make amends with Ty but still keeps his secret (shout-out to the person who described them as being in "doomed yaoi purgatory"). People also say that they have great chemistry and a lot of potential. What people dislike is really just that they haven't had time to fully develop, since TWP hasn't actually come out yet.

The next top ship is Kierarktina, which is where we exit the "pure adoration" tier of this list. People like the characters and all their different dynamics, and think that there's a lot of potential for growth with them. They also like the fact that they're a canonically polyamorous ship. The complaints I got were that the relationship feels rushed, and that Cristina seems to fetishize Kieran and Mark's relationship.

Getting into the TID ships all nicely chunked together in the middle of this list, people like Chenry for their arranged marriage setup, where both of them love each other but saw their feelings as unrequited for years. They also like Charlotte and Henry's combined autistic swag. What makes people hesitate is their lack of pagetime.

For Sophideon, people of course love the individual characters, and especially appreciate how Gideon adores everything about Sophie. The only downside is how little of them we get on the page.

Gabrily came in lower than Sophideon but did receive more #1 votes and fewer #13 votes, proving that they have a higher number of committed fans despite being less popular overall. Those fans like how the two of them loved each other for what they were and always had each other's backs. Nobody had any negative comments about them.

Haline is another mid-tier ship that didn't get many comments. What I did hear is that people like how their struggles were worth it because they had each other, and ranked them low because of their lack of page time.

Gracetopher is probably the most controversial ship on this list. If we were just going off of who received the most #1 votes, they would be fifth overall (that order would be Malec, Kitty, Thomastair, Sizzy, Gracetopher). Unfortunately for them though, we are also factoring in all the people who ranked them dead last. As this form received more and more submissions, I watched this couple gradually climb from second-to-last to the dizzying height of fourth-to-last in the overall rankings. First off, what people like is how they truly see each other. Christopher was overlooked by his friends for his intensity and Grace was only ever treated as a weapon and a seductress, but they genuinely respect each other and bond over their shared enthusiasm for science. Looking at the negatives though, most people saw their dynamic as underdeveloped and unnecessary. Lots of people dislike Grace and don't believe that she should have received any redemption, and even people who are sympathetic towards Grace still dislike that Christopher was so quick to forgive her after how she treated one of his best friends. A few people also said that they like Grace and Christopher's dynamic when it's platonic, but ranked it low as a romance. People were also upset by Christopher's death, and feel that it ruins the relationship for them.

For Gwynburn, the only positive comment I got was a couple people saying they're cute, and the only negative one came from somebody who didn't like Diana because they felt she was an irresponsible guardian to the Blackthorn kids. Most people ranked them higher than the other ships at the bottom of this list, but unfortunately they just didn't have enough extremely high votes to pull them ahead.

Ghostwriter didn't get any specific positive propaganda, though some people clearly do enjoy them. Most of the negative sentiments came from people who just found them uninteresting and generally didn't enjoy TLH. They also see the pairing as having wasted potential, and felt frustrated by the lack of consequences for Jesse's resurrection. They saw Lucie as boring and dislike Jesse for his mistreatment of Grace.

Despite being ranked last, Arianna fans still came in to share what they liked about the couple. They enjoy the characters and Anna's butch swag, and some people who don't like them together still enjoy the concept. What people largely dislike about the two is Anna as a character, and how she treated Ari and all the other women she had flings with. While not everyone was ready to give up on them because of Anna's flaws, they were frustrated by how she didn't resolve her issues or try to be better by the end of the trilogy. There were also people who thought that the ship didn't get enough page time, or who didn't connect with Ari as a character. People were also disappointed in how Ari was punished by the narrative and by Anna for not being ready to come out of the closet when she was seventeen and dependent on her bigoted parents.

Oh boy, time to dig into the biggest category (which still feels incredibly cut down, my original list was over 50 characters). Side characters are obviously a point of hot debate, since everybody has their favorite guy who the narrative forgot about. The most popular overall characters were all old favorites introduced in TMI, then there's George, Catarina, Livvy, and Jessamine (who all swapped around a fair bit), before we get into a large chunk of characters who either inspire mixed feelings or get forgotten entirely, and bringing up the rear is two of the most hated characters in TSC.

First up, we have what I think is the biggest sweep of the whole survey; Raphael Santiago. He got about a third of the #1 votes, which isn't quite as dramatic a majority as Herongraystairs in their bracket, but far more impressive when you consider the sheer number of characters competing against Raphael for the top spot in this section. People think he's funny, iconic, and relatable. They love his sarcastic and grumpy sense of humor and his begrudging responsibility for the people around him. They also like his relationship with Magnus, as explored in "Saving Raphael Santiago" in The Bane Chronicles. The most common comment I got though was that people appreciate him being canonically aroace, and they remember him as their first experience seeing an aspec character in media. He received no negative comments (and few people left him out of their top ten).

Our second place goes to Lily, who got points for her iconic sense of humor, haunting backstory, and compelling relationships with both Alec and Raphael. She received no negative comments.

People like Maia but apparently don't have much to say about her. The only comments I got were that she's hot and a bad bitch, plus she overcame her difficult past.

Ragnor is appreciated how grouchy and melodramatic he is, and how he fits into the warlock friend group with Magnus and Catarina. I'd also like to shout-out his friendship with Raphael, since I love seeing them bond over their haterism. He received no negative comments.

George also didn't get many comments, but people grew attached to him very quickly and felt strongly affected by the tragedy of his death in TFSA, except for the person who said he felt like he got killed off for shock value.

People like Catarina's relationships with the other warlocks. I also want to point out her incredible selflessness and how she's even committed to helping people who hate her. She received no negative comments.

Livvy got the second most #1 votes after Raphael, and yet she's only #7 overall (ranked choice voting strikes again), and it looks to me like people either love her or don't care about her. What they love about her is the tragedy of her death and her relatable sense of responsibility towards her siblings, plus the continuation of her story in TWP. The only negative comment I got about her was from someone who didn't feel sad when she died.

Jessamine is seen as a fascinating and tragic character with a lot of potential depth who deserves more love. She got some low marks from her lack of page time though, and from people who found her attitude annoying.

Moving into some TST characters, Luke is noticeably higher than all the rest of his high school/fascist cult buddies. People like him for his dad vibes, and dislike him for his holier than thou attitude towards other members of the Circle. (Shout-out to my IRL friend who called him a DILF this morning).

Jocelyn didn't get many comments, and none that were positive. I'll chip in to say that I like how fierce and strong-willed she was when she decided to betray her abusive husband and raise Clary alone in NYC, and appreciate that she always tried to do what she thought would protect her daughter (even if it often wasn't actually what Clary wanted or needed). The people of the survey think she's a bad person and don't think that Clary should have forgiven her so easily for the way she lied to her. She moved up pretty far in the last day of this survey, but that was mostly due to other characters dropping in the rankings.

Maryse was behind Robert for most of the time this survey was gathering data, but her fans came in at the end to bump up her score. They like her relationships with her children, especially Jace and Alec, and are curious about her life before TMI when she had to deal with a loveless marriage and losing her brother to the mundane world. The only negative comment I received for her was someone who disliked how she treated Jace while he was being unfairly accused of working with Valentine.

While Eugenia is generally liked by TLH fans because she's funny, feisty, badass, and has a compelling relationship with Thomas; she scored fairly low overall because most people don't feel super attached to her due to her lack of page time.

The only positive comment I received about Jordan was that it was funny when he spent time with Jace and Simon. Mostly, people think that he was a toxic boyfriend to Maia and an awful person overall. They especially disliked that he and Maia got back together, even though he'd previously assaulted her after their breakup. Despite that, he's managed to make his way up from the bottom five of this list.

Robert is more controversial than his ex-wife, receiving more negative and more positive votes than her. People like his relationship with Michael as explored in "The Evil We Love," and how his personal issues with queerness bled into his relationship with his son. They enjoy both the angst of his difficult relationship with Alec, and the hopefulness that comes from his ability to grow as a person and try to be better for the sake of his kids. Folks who are less compelled by the angst just flat dislike him for his bad parenting. His ranking dropped dramatically in the last twelve hours, since I guess the people who can't forgive shitty parenting all showed up at the end.

People who like Jaime enjoy his attitude and see him as complex, and all the negative comments were about the age gap between him and Dru.

Michael is a character who seems to suffer from being nobody's favorite. No one had anything negative to say about him, but the only positive comments were in regards to his relationship with Robert, and the highest anybody ranked him was #4.

Amatis is somebody else who I believe suffered from not having any real fans. The only comment I got about her was that they ranked her low because they don't know much about her. The highest anybody ranked her was #6, and only one other character on this list has a highest rank that's lower than that. Nobody got mad at her like they did with Jordan or Jaime or Camille, but no one loves her like they love those three, so she ended up lower than them overall.

Camille got a fair number of high votes from people who enjoy her dramatic diva energy, and a lot of low ones from people who think she's just an awful person.

And here we have the first of the two most hated characters in this list. While he was dead last for almost an entire week, Nate finally managed to claw his way up to 19th place. Nobody had anything nice to say about him, and nobody ranked him higher than #7. I'll say that I find him interesting as an extension of Tessa's character and arc. People didn't have particularly complicated complaints, they just think that he's selfish, mean, awful, a traitor, a liar, an asshole, and completely irredeemable. Oof.

Even though he ended up in last place, Charles is distinct from the rest of the characters ranked this low because he actually does have a handful of fans who put him at #2 or #3. They think that he's an interesting character to study, even if he's an awful person. They also find his relationships with Alastair and Matthew to be compelling (though unhealthy) and relate to his place as an older sibling burdened by high expectations. As for the negatives, there's a whole laundry list. People see him as gross, annoying, selfish, awful, and boring. They hate his predatory relationship with Alastair in-universe, and which he was handled better by the author out of universe. I got one comment that said he felt like he was written by a straight woman, and in general people don't like how his arc was written.

Now that we're through with two of the largest and most controversial categories, let's move onto the one nobody cares about. I will admit that I included the children in this survey purely out of an interest in hearing if anybody had reasoning for preferring one small child over another.

Also, since we have two Max Lightwoods, I differentiated them using their middle inititals; Max M for Max Michael Lightwood-Bane, and Max J for Max Joseph Lightwood.

Okay, so what I have in the positive column for every single kid on this list is more or less just their association with their parents. People like the Lightwood-Bane siblings because they like Malec, they like Mina because of Jessa, Tavvy because of the TDA Blackthorns, Max J because of the TMI Lightwoods, Alex because of Gabrily, and Zachary because of Cordelia and Thomastair. Negative comments were also often linked to parents, like ranking Mina low because they dislike Jessa, or disliking the Lightwood-Banes because their existence feels like fanservice and they don't believe Alec would be a good father at age 20. Rafe did get the positive comment that his story in GotSM made the respondant cry.

Positive comments for Tavvy focused on people feeling like they know him better than other kids on this list, and being excited to see more of him and his relationship with Dru in TWP.

Max J got comments talking about how much more character he has compared to the babies, and how the tragic end to his story strongly affeced people. People got attached to him from his love of manga, and appreciate how he symbolized the innocence that Alec, Isabelle, and Jace needed to fight for.

Alex and Zachary were ranked last by almost everyone, though they all made it clear that they bear no ill will towards these kids. Zachary did get one committed fan who loves the way he brings Alastair's arc to a close, and is excited to see more of him on Thomastair's BiB story. I think it's noteworthy that they have the same number of #1 votes, Zachary got more #2 and #3 votes, and Alex got more #4 and #5 votes; showing that once you discount the people placing them in the bottom two, Zachary is in fact more popular. (I'm assuming that most people who put them in the bottom two don't actually prefer one over the other).

The villain category was particulary interesting to me, because reading everyone's comments made it clear that many of us are working off of different definitions of what makes a good villain. The biggest question was whether a character being sympathetic made people see them as a great villain or a terrible one. The other cool thing about this category is you can see that almost all the villains from the same series stayed next to each other in the ranking.

For as high as Sebastian ranked, he got relatively few comments. What people do like about him is that he was more relatable and redeemable than other villains because of how Valentine raised him, and yet he still went on to do unjustifiable things. They also think he was funny. The main complaint he got from several people was that the demon blood storyline made him a boring and badly constructed villain, since he had no free will in his own evilness. Also, y'know, the incest thing.

Valentine may not be ranked as highly as his son, but he did get far more specific compliments from people. They love to hate how logical, strategic, and pure evil he could be; as well as the way the story built up to him by showing the impact he had on the world. He was a skilled manipulator who convinced people to sacrifice everything in the name of his twisted values, and worked as a chillingly accurate representation of fascism. He also served the greater themes of TMI by allowing the leads to deny the violence and hatred passed down by their parents. Some people also just enjoy the Circle era characters. The only bad thing anyone said about him was that he's generic, one of a million bigoted middle aged white men in fiction.

Annabel and Malcom switched back and forth in the rankings a couple times while data was being gathered, since most people voted for the two of them as a unit. People like how tragic their storyline was, and how they served as foiled to Blackstairs because they too were people who loved each other enough to burn down the world. Ultimately, it was their sympathetic anti-Clave motivation that got most people to love them. The two points people held against them was that they're too sympathetic and thus not really villains, and that Annabel's potential was wasted in Queen of Air and Darkness. The folks who dislike TDA also dislike them on account of their association with the series.

Mortmain is our solidly mid tier villain. People across the board saw him as a simple pure evil force that the heroes had to win against, and the main question was whether people loved him or hated him for that simplicity.

The only reason anybody gave for enjoying Asmodeus was his association with Alec. The few negative comments he got were all about either his lack of page time or how his motivation being centered on his inherent evil made him uninteresting.

Shinyun is a more complicated character, and her reception was complicated as well. People like that she's associated with Alec through TEC, and that she showed how evil she was by rejecting redemption when it was offered to her. There were also some mixed feelings expressed about her place as a cult survivor, since that's a very human trauma that was not given enough dignity by the narrative. Negative opinions all came down to her lack of page time, and people who either never read or actively disliked TEC.

Benedict Lightwood might be the lowest anything from TID scored in this entire survey. People who enjoy him mentioned how he created realistic angst for Gideon and Gabriel, as a manipulative father they needed to learn to rebel against. What people think makes him a bad villain is that he's not a villain at all, just a generic shitty dad. Also, multiple people commented "worm" with no explanation.

Sadly for the villains of TLH, this isn't the way they were supposed to be the worst of the worst. While some people enjoyed Tatiana for her chaos and irredeemability, especially the way she abused her own daughter for years, overall she was seen as a boring letdown who could have been interesting if the narrative didn't treat her as pure evil. Maybe she could have had potential if she was allowed to be the main villain or if the story acknowledged the ways in which she felt abanoned by the Clave, but that's not the story we got.

As for Belial, nobody had anything positive to say about him. They thought that his plan was stupid (especially for a Prince of Hell), and that he was boring, annoying, and just generally underwhelming. He also received the same complaints as Asmodeus about how demons are uniniteresting villains because their only motive is their own inherent evil.

And here was have our final category: the side books! It's no surprise to me that the short story collections came in first, and that the unreleased books don't have a lot of fans yet.

Our most popular pick was Tales From the Shadowhunter Academy, which people love because of how it followed up on TMI storylines while also expanding upon the world. It gave readers a look into characters they enjoy like Alec, Mark, and James, and of course the most popular comment I got was people gushing about getting time with Simon. They love the Sizzy moments too, as well as Simon's friendship with Clary and the rest of the TMI gang. It also got points for George's heartbreaking death, and for how much fun it was to read when it was serialized in 2015. The two stories people mentioned as their favorites were "The Evil We Love" and "Nothing But Shadows," showing how people enjoyed getting to look at points in the TSC timeline that aren't explored by other series. The only negative comment it got was from a person who finds Simon and Isabelle annoying.

Coming in at a close second, Ghosts of the Shadow Market is beloved mainly for its connection to Jem and Jessa. People enjoy that it served a purpose in the overall TSC plot, and showed how love can be born of tragedy. The stories people brought up were "Every Exquisite Thing," "The Land I Lost," and especially "Cast Long Shadows." It received no negative comments.

While The Bane Chronicles was the least favorite of the anthologies, it still clearly won the love of the people. They enjoy it mainly on account of Magnus, especially for his friendship with the other warlocks and his romance with Alec. They like how funny it is, and feel like it has the same charm as the early TMI books. The only negative comment I got about it was that it's boring.

Secrets of Blackthorn Hall got points for the wholesome and iconic vibes, and the interesting format of being published through tumblr. Someone also described it as a home renovation show in a haunted house, and people brought up being glad to see characters like Mark and Mina and ships like Kitty and Blackstairs. Some people just didn't find it interesting though, and others disliked it because it had so much Julian and Blackstairs.

An Illustrated History of Notable Shadowhunters and Denizens of Downworld probably got the fewest comments in this category. The people who love it appreciate the stunning art and interesting details about the characters, and all the low votes came from people who haven't read it.

The Shadowhunter's Codex is the oldest companion book on this list, and clearly didn't hit like the later additions to the canon. The only positive comments I got were from people who enjoyed Simon, Clary, and Jace's comments written into the margins. Generally people just didn't find it interesting, and saw it as a textbook that didn't even provide new information about the the world of Shadowhunters. There were also people who either didn't read it or couldn't finish it.

Better in Black of course hasn't been released, but people are excited to see their favorite couples back in action. In this survey, I got specific comments from people talking about Herondaisy and Thomastair. It still ranked pretty low overall, mainly because none of us have read it yet.

A Sea Change was most people's bottom pick, just because it isn't out yet. (My theory is that it ranked lower than BiB because BiB got everyone hyped through fandom engagement when we all debated which couples would be included, and that BiB appeals to fans of ten different ships while ASC only has fuel for Matthew fans). Predictably, the people who expect to love ASC are the ones excited to see the next chapter of Matthew's journey.

And with that, we're done! I'd like to once again thank everybody who participated, especially the folks who gave long or detailed comments. I had to simplify and summarize a lot in this post, but I truly enjoyed reading everything you all had to say.

I also want to take some time at the end here to address some questions I got about why stuff in this poll was set up the way it was. First, I got a lot of people saying that Kitty should have been considered a main couple, either in addition to Morgenthorn or instead of them. I get that we (so far) have a lot more Kitty material and that most of the fanbase is far more invested in them, but I'm counting the "main couple" as the one that includes the main girl. I also got some people confused by my choice to include unpublished works like TWP and Seasons of Shadowhunters, and while I understand that perspective I still stand by my decision. I know it's not fair to the series and that people can't accurately rate things they haven't read, but I wasn't trying for that kind of accuracy; I was curious about how much people love or hate things that aren't out yet. I'd love to see how TWP and SoS factor into these rankings once we've all read them, but for now I'm happy just hearing what people expect to think about them.

Also, everyone who left random silly comments or told me their favorite characters and scenes, y'all are the real ones. I did this whole project out of my love for this series and my interest in learning why people think the way they do, and I've been amazed by the positive response. This series and world is so incredibly expansive, and I love that all of us are able to find the different niches of TSC that make us happy.

If you actually read through all this, you're awesome and thanks for supporting my passion for turning emotions into numbers. If anybody has any additional questions, I am here to chat!

Taglist:

@edwinspaynes @helenofblackthorns @whaliensdream @iovelaces @darcyolsson @sankta-wraith @magnus-the-maqnificent @blue-silver-hammer @ineedmoremalec @kingslayerzzzz @thevagabondexpress @cara0765 @uncertified-shadowhunter-14 @elytrianemrald @thomasslightwood @starrieshq @blackthornobsessed @alastaircarstairsismybff @angeldaisies @dissapointmentsrus @bananacakepie

[mshexley]

My biggest pet peeve of HOTD is that they took away Rhaenys’ black hair and in doing that they oversimplified the whole thing with Jace, Luke, and Joffrey.

Like no Viserys rejected it is not solely powered by his unconditional love for Rhaenyra, it's also because it's a flimsy rumor that says "what if that man that's always with her is the father?" "oh you mean the man thats her sworn sword and is supposed to be constantly with her?"

And I feel like some of the oversimplification comes from the reveal of Cersei's kids not being Robert's kids but the reveal is more than that. One kid being blonde like Cersei is nothing but ALL OF THEM being blonde when historically every time a Baratheon is involved, their genetics clean house??? That's why it's suspicious.

The reason that it's only the green council that cling to that rumor is because A: they're tryna pull a Saera 2.0 and B: no one else thinks it's worth the trouble to pursue because it can always be argued down just as fiercely.

It’s still very much a gene pool thing where just cause both your parents have blonde hair doesn't guarantee you'll have blonde hair especially when brown or black hair is in the gene pool. The only time the Targ's typical features seem to win out is when the genes they're competing with are also recessive ones (like Alicent's red hair), in which case that's when the magic of their genes locks in for an easy win. (should also be noted that with Orys Baratheon being believed to be Aegon I's brother, that means he has that same magic in his blood)

Like, yeah, Rhaenyra’s first three kids didn’t come out with white hair but look at who their legal grandmother is? Rhaenys Targaryen, Daughter of Jocelyn “Our Seed is Strong AF” Baratheon and that’s on Laenor's side. It was pure luck that Laena & Laenor came out with white hair. On Rhaenyra's we have have the Arryns who don't have a typical look and can easily have many brown haired Arryns in the gene pool (Rodrik is only described as balding, Jeyne is a redhead, Jon Arryn is a blonde, and then Robin is brown haired).

This may not be the case but it COULD be and that's why its too complicated to pursue especially when the moment she has kids with Daemon the brown hair goes away. You can argue that it's because Harwin is dead BUT it can also be argued that Baratheon genetics is no longer a factor since there's no Baratheons leading to Daemon (its unadulterated incest from Aegon/Rhaenys' line to Daemon).

Even the assumption that Harwin Strong fathered bastards is the assumption that only stems from Lucamore Strong. "Oh if Lucamore was horny then why shouldn't we assume that Harwin was also horny?"

Even Rhaenyra being slutty is taken with a grain of salt because it comes from a man (Criston) that was reportedly spurned by her and who even Alicent herself didn't trust around her so even when she and Cole aligned, she probably still didn't believe him.

It's so small but taking away Rhaenys dark hair literally just (whether intentional or not) justifies rumors that LITERALLY only exist to try and steal the crown from Rhaenyra.

And this is not me being "stan team black" (even though green stans will take it that way anyway) but it's recognizing that the story's intention of trying to turn these nobles into secretly good people who are just "doing their bestest uwu but being a noble is so hard 😢" does an injustice to the original story when every key player was fully willing to rip the realm apart for a throne.

Anyways this rant was a disguise for Ashgan's gofundme. She's 20 years old and has to help care for six other family members with a goal of £15,000. So if you're able to spare some money and are willing, consider donating to her.

[witchlingcirce]

People who criticize the circle fail to understand that it was literally a cult! A cult! To form a cult, you need a very charismatic leader, people who are kinda lost or insecure, and for the leader to perform some sort of “miracle.” Every box checks out. Valentine targeted each member: people who had all had difficult upbringings or suffered a lot of loss.

Luke was a weak student and insecure AND his mom literally left him and amatis to become an iron sister

Celine was heavily abused by her parents (they would literally put her in the basement or she would run away from home)

Robert had an abusive dad with too much shadowhunter pride and couldn’t bear marks, making him feel like a disappointment

Stephen’s mom was Imogen and she was probably a crazy helicopter parent

and etc etc with each member

In Jocelyn’s case, I don’t think she had any crazy trauma and we know she wasn’t drawn to Valentine until his parents died. I think she fell for the I Can Fix Him (No Really I Can) phenomenon and I’m sure Valentine was pretty great to her at first. He’s an intelligent sociopath (probably from his own extreme childhood trauma) and knew what to do to make her fall in love with him, the way he did with everyone else. You can’t blame a teenage girl for falling for that act. Her staying with him definitely came from fear. Valentine is a dangerous guy and she knew that- why else would she continue sleeping with him even after he clearly poisoned their first born? There was a lot of fear there and I don’t think you could blame her at all. She was stuck in an abusive relationship.

I think that’s the case for everyone else in the circle i.e. they were stuck in this abusive relationship that they were too afraid to leave because they knew how scary Valentine could be, the horrific things he could do. Sometimes when you’re stuck in an abusive bubble, you don’t really realize how bad things are but it’s also hard to take a step back to see the bigger picture. That’s why the surviving members of the circle in NY hated Valentine.

And to add to Celine’s defense, she was definitely selfish at times, I agree. However, when you grow up in such uncertainty and lack of love, I think it drives some people to kinda do anything to get that, even if it means ending a marriage. She was finally getting everything that she never had before the circle and I think she couldn’t hold herself back. If she survived and raised Jace, I don’t think she would have been the best mother. She would probably be very immature BUT that speaks to the amount of abuse and lack of childhood she had. And you are so right: she never got a chance to escape that abuse!!! Also I just want to add: being 17, her prefrontal cortex was not fully developed and was probably stunted from the crazy stuff she went through at home

Also! I believe Cassie said that Stephen and Celine planned to name the baby Will :)

100% agree with you on the circle members. I think it’s interesting case for them because a lot of them definitely agreed with Valentine at some point, but than they had kids of there own and they grew up and they realised how crazy he actually was! But they were too scared to leave and stay for the post part.

Also I’m glad you agree about Céline! I agree that she wouldn’t have been the best mother to Jace (lack of support system, she’s like 19). But I do think she would have loved Jace so dearly!

And I’m glad you pointed out that 17 is still objectively a kid. While 18 is legally an adult, you’re still young have a lot to learn. I always hate how people act like when your still a teenager that you make the best decisions, especially as people who have been abused endlessly there entire lives.

Also omg, little baby Will that’s so cute!!

[im-out-of-it]

season 2, episode 2 part 2 (kinda long but at least I’m a nice enough bitch to warn anyone)

41. the way Magnus says this is SO SAD!!!!!!!! like you can tell from his voice that he’s felt this shit in his soul. MAGNUS YOU ARE ENOUGH AND YOU ARE NOT A LOT OK (also don’t judge me with the light on the side, I was too tired to untangle the blinds for my cats sake)

42. I don’t get Luke and Jocelyn. they don’t have any chemistry

43. and why does Jocelyn look insulted when she sees Simon is a vampire? BITCH YOU ARE DATING A WEREWOLF! (if anyone wants to see the reaction, I have a video so if one person ask for it, I will do it) but she goes from being insulted to shocked to confused. I don’t know, I just don’t like how she looks almost disgusted as it’s a bad thing Simon is a vampire. and it’s all thanks to your daughter so thank her

44. welcome victor aldertree. he’s a massive dick but I do love the actor and love the accent (and why did they make him use an American one in the princess switch series 😭)

45. Alec and Izzy are really like what the actual fuck is this

46. “Maryse went behind my back”-Lydia girl, why are you shocked? Maryse is Maryse lmao and someone as commanding as Maryse isn’t going to want someone taking leadership away from her. so basically reverse reverse 😭

47. “let’s turn this institute around” meaning shadowhunters are the only ones who matter and downworlders, go home

48. you don’t need Alec to give jace a beating when valentines men are doing that but it still is better when Alec beats his ass

49. “let’s talk about jace”-aldertree. “well he’s my brother and I love him more than I should love a brother”-what clary is thinking 💀 I mean though, is it love? because when I watch their scenes, it doesn’t come off as love. even Izzy and Raphael had more chemistry than clary and Jace do

50. Aldertree just making notes while clary is telling them about jace warning them all lmao how did she think it would sound?????

51. look at Valentine cooking a home cooked meal. and they say Valentine has no heart. spaghetti is a delicacy. I’d be honored to get a home cooked meal just saying

52. “the lightwoods took me in, they made me strong, and they’re my family.”-jace. well you have a funny way of showing it. Jace said in episode 13 of season 1 that Maryse and Robert aren’t his parents and even hinted at them being traitors. and now it’s been a few days and he’s back on them being his family. so jace, is Alec and Izzy your family or only when it’s convenient for you? look, I can understand if he’s having identity crises but it’s hard to take him serious when one day he says he hates Robert and Maryse and the next day he loves them. do you like them or not? he flips back and forth so much

53. and how can you feel bad for him? sociopaths are known to lie and Valentine has mastered it. “she left you to die in idris” makes you wonder if Valentine is talking about Celine or “Jocelyn”. but still jace believes practically every word Valentine says- and we are supposed to believe he’s the fiercest shadowhunter of his time? ok sure

54. “you’ve felt more powerful than everyone else around you” ok I get what Valentine is trying to say but so the fact he has angel blood or whatever, he can jump high and shit? Jace would be dead if Alec didn’t babysit him all the time and if Izzy wasn’t there. he would be dead without Magnus. in the AU episode, he’s almost dying from demon venom but y’all really think clary could have portaled him out? no, they both need Magnus. and clary’s rune ability only goes so far which isn’t even known yet. and who do jace and clary constantly go to for their issues? Magnus, alec, and Izzy. they would be done if it wasn’t for that trio. and every situation alec and Izzy are in is because clary and Jace started shit they couldn’t finish

55. so let me get this straight. Valentine wanted the perfect weapon with good shadowhunter blood and demon blood yet he’s out there killing downworlders because of their blood. MAKE IT MAKE SENSE

56. Malec first fight part 2

57. Magnus calling Alec’s ass out 😭

58. no but for real, I’m glad Magnus is standing there saying “I like you Alec and I’m happy with you but I’m not standing for this treatment. I haven’t wronged you in any way and I don’t deserve to be treated in this manner.” literally Magnus wants to help Alec but he’s not going to tolerate being treated the way Alec is handling everything. it’s not Magnus’s fault if jace decided to leave

59. and the thing that gets me the most is Alec isn’t even thinking about how his words affect Magnus. Magnus is seriously so emotional right now. but I wonder (and I’m not a psychologist but I did go to school for it) (and it’s not that hard to read a persons mind or whatever) but what if the way Alec is acting reminds Magnus of how shadowhunters treat him in general? “Magnus has a mistrust of shadowhunters” was said by hodge in season one. downworlders get treated less than and Alec isn’t a bad person but what if the way Alec is treating him slightly reminds Magnus of that?

AND ALSO ALL OF THAT AND ALEC IS LIKE BUT BABE YOU WONT HELP ME? ALEC MY BOY PLEASE LOOK IN THE MIRROR

60. Alec clearly isn’t thinking but what I appreciate of Malec as a couple and Alec and Magnus as characters is their ability to call people out on their toxic behavior but also apologize when they’re wrong

61. JUST LOOK AT MAGNUS HES SO SAD ALSO THAT GLITTER EYELINER IS FIRE BUT ALSO THEY LOWKEY TOOK AWAY HIS GLITTERY EYESHADOW AND THAT UPSETS ME

62. I always love when Alec points his hand up because he’s like wait a fucking second and Magnus is out

63. but I agree with mags- vodka and steak is my go to as well ✨🍸🥩

64. Aldertree really said to the downworlders get the fuck out disrespectfully lmao

65. I mean at least Luke is safe but Simon is homeless and you just kicked him out. I get they are on lockdown but the issue is Valentine and jace technically not the downworlders. they should have a community for downworlders for each to have a safe space. like for the vampires if they don’t have a clan or want one, for the seelies, the werewolves if they don’t have a pack and don’t want one. like there should be safety precautions to safeguard all of these people

66. and also aren’t shadowhunters supposed to defend the world from evil demons? I’m sorry but some of them are such hypocrites

67. I didn’t make this note last time but I love how they made the runes black and sleeker. they look so much better

68. ah shit, Izzy and Alec are dismissed

69. aldertree is seen as evil but the man has a point. Jace knew Valentine’s plan or that it was a set up and it’s partially clary’s fault for not listening. Valentine didn’t care about the book of the white, he wanted Jocelyn to wake. Jace at many times has done wrong things but got away with it (and Alec took majority of the blame)

70. Alec: you can’t do this. Aldertree is like I just did bitch. now Alec is sitting on his revenge and vendetta against aldertree 😭

so I’m stopping at 71 and there’s twenty ish minutes left so halfway there!!!!!! and isn’t this better than not doing a million posts?????? I’ll probably try to either do one later tonight or tomorrow ✨

[atopvisenyashill]

i have decided to break down all the wild potential female line claimants to the iron throne thru the targaryen line because why not let’s go:

obviously there's our "modern" targaryen daughters: daenerys, rhaella, shaera, and rhaelle. that one is easy to explain in part because it's mostly incest, lol. it goes like so (mind you, i'm cutting out male siblings that don't inherit for now) -

Aegon V + Betha Blackwood -> Jaehaerys II, Shaera, Rhaelle (also Duncan & Daeron)

Jaehaerys II + Shaera -> Aerys + Rhaella -> Daenerys

Rhaelle + Ormund Baratheon -> Steffon Baratheon. Steffon + Cassandra Eastermont = Robert, Stannis, and Renly.

so rhaella & shaera's lines are the same as their brothers, and rhaelle is the grandmother of the baratheon kings, which means like the targaryen main line, all of their lines will be dead or illegitimate as well (rip myrcella, tommen, shireen, aegon vi, and daenerys tho).

that leads you up from aegon v to maekar’s daughters, and since we are at a time period where no main character was alive, i made a little graphic to explain easier. let's start with daeron ii (since he's maekar's father anyway) and work backwards:

there’s several ladies in this grouping: rhae, daella, aelora, daenora, and vaella. we know ‘recently’ a targaryen married the evenstar, and timeline wise, it can only be Rhae or Daella, likely to selwyn’s grandfather. which means claimant number one is selwyn & brienne as king & princess of dragonstone claimant. hell yeah.

there’s two “dead end” branches next. maekar has a granddaughter, vaella, but given she’s described as “simple” it’s likely she never married. daeron & myriah, meanwhile, had no daughters but their son rhaegel had two, aelora and daenora. aelora married her brother aelor but aelora killed herself several years after aelor died (it’s a wild story but not relevant). no children. daenora married into maekar’s line tho, to aerion brightflame and had a son, maegor targaryen, who was passed over for aegon v. we do not know if he married or had kids bc it’s not listed and it’s not like there’s a cadet targaryen house anywhere so if he did marry, probably all daughters.

even further back is aegon the unworthy who had one daughter: daenerys. yes that’s right, our second claimant for king and princess of dragonstone is doran and arianne martell (and then, haha, elia and aegon vi AGAIN, love nobility family trees). and then technically, because the martells are normal and don’t die off every two generations, probably a few offshoot martell cousins. and a reminder that minus mysterious maegor, we have no living male line descendants potentially hanging around either. but back to the targ line.

viserys ii had naerys who married aegon iv so their line is the same. aegon iii, his brother, had three daughters.

daena has daemon blackfyre and given that he was legitimized, you could make the argument that the blackfyres have a claim lmao, so any female line daemon kids could be fair game. then you have elaena targaryen who had several legitimate children: viserys plumm, & robin, laena, jocelyn, and joy penrose. that’s right my esteemed readers our third claimant for king and prince of dragonstone is phillip & dennis plumm!

*loud boos bc they’re not even a great house or a house that used to be kings, they’re just some random nobles in the westerlands* shut up i’m not finished!!

through elaena, the only targ pulling her weight out here to populate the family tree, we have our fourth claimant as well: Old Penrose of the Parchments for King on the Iron Throne!

there’s no reason laena, jocelyn, and joy did not marry but we have no info on them so just know if they married some random landed knight, we also have some random dude walking around the stormlands who could be the next king of westeros.

then we get JAEHAERYS but to keep with ignoring men in this post, i entitled it “alyssa’s line.”

baby visenya, who was a stillbirth & jaehaera, who died before having children, are the two “dead end” lines from the dance. before them is viserys, who had helaena but helaena’s heirs are aegon ii’s heirs.

now, jaehaerys had daenerys, alyssa, saera, viserra, daella, and gael. daenerys died before having children as did viserra. gael & saera had no legitimate children. that leaves alyssa and daella. daella had aemma arryn, who married back into the targ family tree to have rhaenyra. alyssa also married back into the family tree and had three sons, viserys, daemon, and aegon. aegon died as a baby, we know viserys, but daemon had two daughters with laena velaryon: baela and rhaena. laena herself is also a distant claimant through the female line - aemon, jaehaerys’ first born son, and jocelyn baratheon had rhaenys, the queen that never was, who had laena. through baela we get our fifth claimant for king of westeros, the literal toddler montereys velaryon! rhaena is kinda tricky - she had no children in her first marriage, and six daughters in her second to garmund hightower but he was the third son and his oldest brother had six kids so it’s not likely the hightower line descends from rhaena however it would be really funny if it did so for the sake of making myself laugh i give you our sixth claimant to the seat of house targaryen, king leyton hightower and prince of dragonstone baelor breakwind. this puts a lot of people in the running tbh, bc leyton has a million kids. his daughters marry and have kids with an ambrose, a tyrell, a cupps, and a redwyne (and a mormont but jorah and lynesse have no children).

(it would require all the hightower male heirs to die [not likely, there’s three of them] AND mad maid malora as well to get to alerie but king and queen mace and alerie tyrell with willas as prince of dragonstone is so fucking funny to me. hey daeron how olenna’s ass taste now.)

before jaehaerys, we have aenys, who had rhaena the boss bitch & alysanne. alysanne’s line is jaehaerys’ obviously, and rhaena married her brother aegon the uncrowned. they had two girls, aerea and rhaella, but neither lived to see adulthood. maegor never had living kids, which brings us back to aegon, who had only sons, and visenya and rhaenys, who married their brother.

i actually had a point to this which is that there is just no one sitting on that fucking chair at the ending because there is no one left alive to sit on it that the lords would choose. they’re not crowning a penrose or a plumm and they’re certainly not crowning my girls arianne and brienne however hilarious i think that would be. i think “westeros breaks up along weird new borders” makes sense just due to that alone - the north will push for independence (maybe parts of the riverlands will want to stick with the north), dorne isn’t likely to be thrilled about some random ass king, the iron islands is…the iron islands, so the only kingdoms that might actually want to stick together are the stormlands, the reach, the crownlands, the vale, and the westerlands, but also, all of these bitches hate each other right now & a lot of them are gonna bite it so who knows.

anyways tldr female line targaryen claimants include these wild choices for King & Heir:

Selwyn and Brienne of Tarth

Doran and Arianne Nymeros Martell of Dorne

Any female line Blackfyres

Phillip and Dennis Plumm of the Westerlands (so minor we don’t even know where their seat is lmao)

Old Penrose of the Parchments

Montereys Velaryon of Driftmark

Leyton and Baelor Hightower of Oldtown

Through Leyton, who has a whopping 10 children, we have House Ambrose, Cupps, Redwyne, and of course, the fat flower himself, House Tyrell as claimants eight thru like, fifty.

[edwin-paynes-bowtie]

CONFIRMED THOMASTAIR IN BETTER IN BLACK WE ARE WINNING

Also, do you think it's possible we'll get any sort of Waywood mention in the Luke/Jocelyn story? If it's set while they're at the Shadowhunter Academy, then they might at least talk about some of the folks in their social circle, maybe wonder about why those two aren't as close as they used to be (this is me being desperate for any Robert and Michael content)

THIS IS SUCH A GOOD DAY

Yeah I hope so omg I love Waywood

[light-wayland]

Understanding Luke versus Robert/Maryse

here are my thoughts regarding luke's feelings about robert and maryse and how to make sense of them beyond pure narrative bias. this is not supposed to get into meta criticism of the books, it's rather a character analysis

this is not meant to be anti luke at all, but i will point out his negative traits. it may not be framed like this in the books, but luke makes much more sense to me when i see him as what he actually is: a morally gray character

luke used to discriminate against downworlders, and only changed his views after he turned into a downwolder himself

his poor opinion of other circle members don't extend to jocelyn and valentine

he's okay with killing werewolf leaders to take their power, because they've done it before so it's fair to do the same to them

after everything luke still somehow argued that the downwolders killed by valentine were all criminals

robert liked luke, but had the feeling that luke thought that being closer to valentine made him better. that's a red flag because it matches his late behavior. even after EVERYTHING valentine has done, luke still respects him and craves to be respected back

it's extremely questionable for a character to pay valentine any respect at all at that point of the story, but i can understand luke in the sense of standing by your beloved friend even if they turned out to be a brutal murderer. many people are willing to overlook any crime commited by someone they love, and shadowhunters being used to violence sure have different standards on that. but it's a problem when the crimes of your dear friend turn against YOU, and that's what happened to luke: valentine framed him to be attacked by a werewolf (that's heavily implied and luke seems to know that) because he listened to jocelyn's concerns about valentine

luke turned against valentine because valentine turned against him first. otherwise we can't really know if he would ever take action like he did. the fact that he still respects and mourns valentine after everything valentine has done to him, to others, and to JOCELYN, speaks volumes to me

that's all valid from a morally gray character

then, how luke thinks so badly of maryse and robert for their loyalty to valentine? i think the answer is not even that complicated

luke thinks he and jocelyn are better because they went along with valentine out of love for him only, but he thinks robert and maryse would have followed anyone who said the same absurds. he thought they were by themselves their own version of valentine, one he didn't love or care about.

i'm also inclined to believe that there may be even some jealously involved, because if luke always thought of himself as better than all other followers, he probably wasn't pleased with valentine catching strays, and it certainly stung that valentine turned against him first, the one who loved him as his parabatai, but had robert and maryse following him until the uprising before they all finally betrayed each other.

luke's feelings about robert, maryse and hodge may come from a place of "you don't really know valentine, he never loved any of you like he loved me, you shouldn't have a place beside him, you only did because you're all horrible and happen to share the same awful beliefs as him"

i'm strongly against painting any circle member as innocent. what's the use of not being into murder and torture if you don't mind your best friend/husband doing so? let's be for real right now. that was something robert pointed out himself, it was horrible of him to not even care much about valentine’s beliefs and go along with everything anyway, but instead of thinking of himself as better because of that like luke did, he thought of himself as worse

i find interesting that luke assumes that maryse wished he was dead. to me that says that he probably wished she was dead, and projected that on her

this is not to say that luke couldn't be friends with other circle members: his selfish perspective actually makes him more similar to robert and stephen that he would like to think about, and i think they were both inclined to be friends with him if he wasn't so deep into believing that valentine was better than them and that he was also better as his parabatai. they all secretly relate to each other

all of this analysis make luke a better character to me, because these are all things the characters themselves could think about and reflect. as a morally gray character, luke is still a far more capable and loving partner and father than valentine, and that's how trying to tell circle members apart in good or bad doesn't work to me. they were all awful and in their own way all capable of good if they actually wanted to, like luke did at the end