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nientedenada · 2 years ago

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Is it fair to say Tiber Septim nuked Alinor? - The nature of Numidium as a weapon

Reposted from r/teslore. Yes. It's completely fair.

Lately, I’ve read and participated in a bunch of arguments over

whether it’s right to compare Numidium to a nuclear weapon,

whether it caused nuclear-weapon level destruction in Tiber Septim’s conquering of Summerset.

I’ve seen the argument that if you go by official Bethesda sources only, there is nothing to support 1 & 2. It’s alleged that only Michael Kirkbride’s unofficial writings support this. Specifically, this post:

Numidium's siege of Alinor: It's not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals. The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints.

That’s a reflection on how the Numidium worked in Alinor by one of the devs who wrote parts of this story about Tiber Septim and Numidium. I think it influences Bethesda official lore (as we’ll see when we get to ESO) and will continue to do so. However, we’re going to put unofficial lore aside for this post, and take a look at what the official lore says about Numidium and whether it supports the nuclear weapon comparison.

Numidium of course doesn't work like a nuclear bomb. That's not what anyone means when they're comparing it to a nuclear bomb. They're comparing it to a similarly feared horrible weapon of mass destruction. For us, the nuclear bomb represents the worst weapon imaginable, for Third Era Tamriel, it’s much the same way.

There are not many sources on Tiber Septim’s invasion of Summerset. The Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition, which is one of the main Tiber-era sources, is written before the Armistice with Morrowind and the invasion of Summerset. The anti-Imperialism game Redguard is also pre-Numidium, with Tiber Septim’s deputies searching Dwemer ruins for weapons. We never hear the story of the invasion from a Summerset source. We’re stuck with some very vague references. We know Tiber Septim used Numidium to conquer Summerset, but what happened there?

The Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition says,

Thus, the Dominion thrived until the coming of Tiber Septim. The conquest and assimilation of Summerset into the Empire is remembered by many a living Altmer with horror only partially diminished by time. Certainly, the pride of the people has never recovered.

People argue over whether the “horror only partially diminished by time” refers to the horrific nature of the Conquest or to Altmer horror at humans conquering them. I believe that, from what we know of Numidium, it’s both, but the source here doesn’t say outright.

During the War of the Isle in 3E 110, the Maormer of Pyandonea were very nearly successful in conquering their ancient enemy, and the Altmer had to call upon the aid of the Psijics and the Empire to help defend themselves.

The Dominion’s ability to defend itself was still not restored 110 years after Numidium.

So, given how scant our sources are on the use of Numidium in Summerset, we have to look at the general cultural memory and opinion of Numidium in Tamriel, and at the one time we get a detailed canon look at its use: the Warp in the West.

Sotha Sil, quoted in the Truth in Sequence, calls it “the walking horror.”

But most profane is this: the walking horror that bears the Name, NM. The Brass Tower of Vanity. The mindless guardian of the Nirn-Prior. The Antipodal-God-Thing that reigns on the darkest pole of the sacred Nirn-Sphere. Of all the threats to Tamriel Final, NM is the greatest. Anuvanna'si. The Daedra can be banished in thought, but NM must be sundered on Nirn. It is the welded knot at the center of Anu that must be untied. The God-Puzzle. The Mainspring Ever-Wound remains silent on this point. And where there is silence, there is great wisdom.

In Where You When the Dragon Broke? the tender to the Mane speaks

You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but twice! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with.

What happened at Rimmen with Big Walker that the Khajiit can never learn to live with? Well, there's an official Bethesda Q&A promoting Morrowind from 1999 that makes the nuclear comparison clear

Jodenjone! Don' let Marshee lie to you about Big Walker. The Blades took It from here, sure, but they din' take It back to Cyrodiil and rebuild the thing. Talos, he "annexed" a swath of our bounty-land in Ana'quinal and cleared the Khajiiti out by force. There's where he built the Hall of Colossus—a mighty name for a secret testing warehouse—and that's where Big Walker was born. And that's why that part of our Elsweyr is still poisoned glow-rock, where no cats go. Ach, for the lunacy of you Wayward Folk!

"Poisoned glow-rock". It’s not just the fans comparing Numidium to a nuclear weapon It's clear that was the devs' intention here.

The horror of the Numidium is also the foundation of the main quest of Daggerfall. Throughout the Agent’s quest, s/he receives letters from various random people and factions in game detailing the Numidium’s reputation.

The first letter the Agent gets reads

You have probably not heard the fairy tale of Numidium, but you need to. The legend dates back to the earliest parts of the third era [sic]. Numidium was supposed to be a giant so big his hands could knock the moons from the sky. I do not recall from the stories whether Numidium was supposed to be good or bad, but the legends used to scare me as a child.

Followed by another letter:

Numidium was Tiber Septim's secret weapon in his bid for supreme power: a thousand foot tall automaton, a golem or an atronach of sorts powered by a gem called the Mantella. The Mantella was infused with the life orce [sic] of Tiber Septim's Imperial Battlemage, and with it, Septim crushed all who stood in his way. After the complete and total defeat of all his opponents, Septim began using Numidium to crush the neutral royal families of Tamriel so that he could enthrone only persons he knew to be loyal. His Imperial Battlemage was furious at this use of his creation, and fought to reclaim the Mantella.

The letter writers aren’t certain how it worked or what it did exactly - which matches Tiber Septim’s secrecy, Numidium’s immediate destruction after its first big use, and the nature of a time-breaking machine that messes with people’s recollections of how things happened. But they are sure that Numidium was a horror, a weapon of mass destruction unlike anything else.

The people of the Iliac Bay would soon get a front row seat to that horror.

The Warp in the West is the only time in canon that we get extensive details on the aftermath of Numidium’s use. As could be expected from the general fear of the Numidium in the above sources, the picture isn’t pretty. We don’t know exactly how Numidium would have functioned in Summerset, but we do know that Numidium works by breaking time. The clash of many different narratives and timelines in the Iliac Bay brought about massive losses of life and property, and huge environmental damage.

The shorter account of the Warp in the West is in the Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition. Bolding of phrases attesting to the destructive force of the events mine.

In the year 417, however, the province redefined itself in a most mysterious way. They call the event the Miracle of Peace. On the 10th of Frostfall, a strange force exploded over the Iliac Bay, displacing armies and decimating whole territories. Though its nature is still unknown, most Bretons believe it was the ancient Gods who had once made High Rock their home scouring the land, making it whole once again. Though it was a painful process for most - the Miracle is sometimes spoken of as the Warp in the West - the result of it is a province that is more unified than it has ever been in modern history. Where once there were a hundred small squabbling kingdoms, today, just two decades after the Miracle, there are five.

Even the ever-optimistic PGE3 admits it was a catastrophe for those who lived through it, but claims the resulting hegemonies and peace were worth it.

The Book, The Warp in the West, which is a private Blades’ report on the event is less circumspect about the details.

Speaking of the official “Miracle of Peace”:

The catastrophic destruction of landscape and property and the large loss of life attending upon this miracle is understood to have been 'tragic, and beyond mortal comprehension.'

And

The other remarkable features of these events -- mass disappearances, armies mysteriously transported hundreds of miles or completely annihilated, titanic storms and celestial phenomena, apparent local discontinuities of time -- fit comfortably into the notion that these events are part of a vast, mysterious divine intervention.

Mass disappearances of people, armies annihilated, titanic storms: all these are part of the catastrophe caused by Numidium. The Blades agents on the scene had more details. I’m quoting the bits that specifically attest to the destruction and harm caused by Numidium.

The Blades have on file few reports from agents dating from the "Warp in the West" period. Most of our agents were lost in the initial dislocations, and others were lost in the confusion after the event.

Most Blades agents in the area died or vanished in the Warp. Others fell to the after-effects.

The Report of Hammerfell Agent 'Briarbird' 'I was on assignment in the Alik'r Desert, a few miles south of Bergama on the 9th of Frostfall. I was encamped, as it was still early morning, when I felt the ground shake so violently, I was thrown to the ground. Dazed, I was aware of a great roar of a sandstorm, which alarmed me, as I had been on a high dune and had seen nothing like that on the horizon. It was on me before I was even on my knees, burying me and my camp.

The first detail on the “titanic storms”. Here, the ground shakes violently and sandstorm buries people in its way.

Briarbird continues:

When I crawled my way out of the sand, I realized that I must make haste and get to Bergama as soon as possible, as all my food and water had been swept away. The sun was just rising as I began, like I said. When I reached Bergama, it was nightfall. The town was in chaos, filled with the soldiers of Sentinel. The Lord of Bergama's fortress was in ruins.

Bergama got off better than other places, as we’ll see. The fortress is said to be in ruins the Sentinel armies have defeated its own troops (who can’t recall how or when it happened), but the town is still there.

Much unluckier is the next account:

The Report of High Rock Agent 'Graylady' ’I was, at the time of the Warp, undercover as a witch in the Skeffington Coven of Phyrgias [sic], in central High Rock. In order to give my report, I had volunteered for an expedition to gather supplies, which would allow me the freedom to reach my contact in Camlorn. I was traveling north-east along the foothills of the Wrothgarian Mountains, on the 9th of Frostfall, when I felt a great heat behind me, like a fire. I turned, but I regret to say I cannot tell you what I saw. The healers tell me my eyes were burned out of my sockets.

This bit btw, about the wave of heat, seems to be consciously modeled off accounts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors.

I think I must have fallen into a state of semi-consciousness, for I distinctly remember falling as the ground seemed to give way beneath me. Then there was a series of explosions in the distance, to the south, and I heard high whistling noises that were getting louder, coming closer. I had my shield with me, and fortunately anticipated that volleys of some sort were falling from the sky. Though I could not see them, I could hear them coming from a distance away, and was able to use my shield to block them from striking me. The assault stopped suddenly, and I could smell smoke. I learned later that most of the forest of Ykalon and Phygias [sic] had caught fire, in an inferno that started further south in Daenia and the Ilessan Hills. Fortunately, I kept my bearings, and moved north, finally reaching a temple in the wilderness where my wounds were healed, as well as they could be.

People here experienced the Warp in the West as a fiery inferno and volleys coming from the sky. Even after the Warp itself ended, the forest fires that it began kept burning.

It was there I learned that there had been a three-way clash between Daggerfall, Wayrest, and Orsinium not far from where I had been, and that the land midway between their kingdoms had been decimated.'

‘Graylady’ doesn’t say that the land decimated was all wilderness or countryside, just that it’s the land midway between the kingdoms. In the heavily populated Iliac Bay, it would have included towns and villages and farms.

Lord Strale encountered a tsunami-like wave on the River Bjoulsae.

'We had just passed the delightful riverside village of Candlemass when the captain sounded the alarum. There, in front of us, was a colossal wall of water, at least thirty feet high. It smashed our barge to splinters before any of us had a chance to react. I woke up on the shore, having been rescued by one of my servants who had miraculously not lost consciousness. He and I and one other man were the only survivors.

Strale finds every town along the Bjoulsae on fire in the aftermath, with soldiers fighting along it.

there were seven great battles in the Iliac Bay, and no one could describe them at all, only their bloodsoaked aftermath

And

to summarize: on the 9th of Frostfall, there had been forty-four independent kingdoms, counties, baronies, and dukedoms surrounding the Iliac Bay, if one includes the unconquered territories of the Wrothgarian Mountains, the Dragontail Mountains, the High Rock Sea Coast, the Isle of Balfiera, and the Alik'r Desert. On the 11th of Frostfall, there were but four - Daggerfall, Sentinel, Wayrest, and Orsinium - and all the points where they met lay in ruins, as the armies continued to do battle.

And

The battles continue on, now months later, as I return to the Imperial City to make my report. What more do I have to say? They are bloody, violent clashes, as is always the case with modern warfare, but I have been to the blackened, desolate no-man's land between the four remaining kingdoms. No mortal army caused that devastation. I can say that the force that shook the Iliac Bay on the 10th of Frostfall 3E 417 was infinitesimally [sic] greater than the power these mighty kingdoms are wielding today.

Is the Numidium a nuke? No. Is it a catastrophic weapon of mass destruction, one of the worst weapons the people of Tamriel can imagine? Yes. Did it cause mass destruction in Alinor as well? Almost certainly yes. That’s how it works. It meddles with time, but not bloodlessly: Numidum retcons reality, but in the process it also burns, maims, drowns, and kills people, and destroys regions, as seen in the Warp in the West. It’s the perfect weapon to bring down an island nation that can otherwise defend itself against outside invasion.

That is why we compare it to a nuclear weapon. It's a comparison that I believe the developers intended as well, for what it's worth. And if I'm a bit over-passionate about the point, here's why. The developers went out of their way to show the horror of modern war and weapons of mass destruction. It's a bit of reality they injected into this fantasy world. I think it's worth taking in, rather than arguing that actually, Numidium isn't that bad, and it's an exaggeration to compare it to a nuke.

Even if you don't think you'd personally compare Numidium to a nuclear weapon, it should be clear that it's a quite rational comparison other people can make based on the evidence.

This post sparked some interesting and passionate discussions as well as some very angry politically-charged ones that are now thankfully deleted! You can read the full discussion here, since I don't want to copy large bits of other people's responses on to my tumblr. But I'll append some stuff I wrote in the comments.

We see something very specific with the atomic bombs, and with the TES reports of Numidium's wreckage, which I think are actuallly modeled in part on eyewitness accounts from HIroshima and Nagasaki.

Both are a horror that's incomprehensible. A single moment in which the entire world around the witness goes from normal to apocalypse without any seeming explanation or warning. The laws of reality themselves seem to bend and the earth tears itself to pieces. Nuclear war really was a historical departure from previous experiences in this regard.

If you compare historical atrocities by which was worse, the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't claim many lives compared to other horrifying deaths in WWII. They still haven't been followed up. All the many atrocities of the 20th and now 21st centuries haven't involved the use of nuclear weapons on populations.

But the threat of Nuclear war still stands out as something categorically different and horrible, the potential for the complete destruction of humanity in such a short time. The Numidium was probably only used once or twice in history, but it has the same terrifying potential, and is even more inexplicable to the residents of Tamriel than the nuclear bomb is to us today.

Roak67 made some interesting comments about whether we can trust certain sources, given Bethesda has retconned a lot. I replied:

You have to take any lore with a grain of salt, since it's bound to be contradicted at some point, but you're right that older sources like the Skeleton Man interview are most likely to be contradicted. However, I'd say it's important for a few reasons.

It's official lore, copyright Bethesda, and contradicts the idea that the Nuclear comparison is unofficial lore from Michael Kirkbride's pronouncements post-full-time-employment with Bethesda. Nope, the nuclear comparison was there during Morrowind development as shown by the "glow rocks".

The origin of the Halls of the Colossus has been retconned twice, first by Skeleton Man, then by ESO. However, unless there's something in the future that retcons the information Numidium was rebuilt, tested, and activated there, that lore should still stand. It's a big place with a spot for the Numidium, no matter who first built it. "Where were you when the Dragon broke?" refers back to what happened there, and continues to be in the games.

I think it was turned on in Rimmen and then went to Alinor in one incident. Breaking time is, as far as I can see, a function of the Numidium, how it works. It's possible it can work in other ways, as you've proposed, but it wouldn't be my favoured interpretation.

If Tiber Septim had better control over it - which is likely enough - I'd suggest he was still breaking time, because its advantage is getting to a place and defeating defences while the opposition is unaware, but could better direct it to hit his targets in Alinor.

About Summerset's lowered defence capabilities after Numidium.

I'm not making that assumption. That's simply the only baseline we have for the condition of the Isles post-Numidium. It's 110 years later.

However, we do know that prior to Numidium, Summerset always was able to push back invaders. According to the PGE3 at least they weren't able to after Numidium.

Did Tiber Septim use Numidium anywhere else than in Elsweyr (turning it on) and Summerset?

The legends surrounding Numidium posit that he was in the process of turning it on neutral parties, at and some point the Underking stopped him. According to the Arcturian Heresy, he didn't actually get that far. The Arcturian Heresy is clear that he only used it on Summerset Isle and the Underking destroyed it right after.

Daggerfall lore has him using it to conquer all of Tamriel, but no one after speaks of it, so I would guess that's been retconned? It's certainly been removed from later versions of the in-game book, the Real Barenziah. The Daggerfall version had the Numidium conquer Morrowind, that is gone from later games, and the new Numidium origin story is that the Tribunal gave Tiber Septim the Numidium in return for peace. All of the above leads to the lore post I've never written, but need to some day, which basically would be. "Yeah, Tiber Septim is a bad guy and he was MEANT to be a bad guy. Each TES game is learning more about stuff he did and there's rarely anything good." But it's a delicate subject, particularly since some devs. started going on like he was the best thing since sliced bread because he found CHIM. (Press X to doubt). Anyway, that's another story for another time, but the bottom line is the gods in TES are not necessarily good, they're just powerful. See every other Daedra who might help you out sometimes but has also been involved in some plot against humanity. And the Aedra aren't always nice either. Talos fits into the crowd as one of the better documented and more recent stinkers.

#tesblr #tes lore #Numidium #tiber septim #high rock #summerset #niente lore

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