#heaven theory

[tonydaddingham]

what if the reason that there's no souls in heaven is because when people die (and presuming they're not pinched by hell) everyone is actually stored on the celestial equivalent of a usb stick. or external hard drive. like, the second coming happens, and boom they're uploaded to the mainframe ready for sorting. better yet a floppy disk

[perpetualcontrolleddrowning]

Something something the way that Crowley introduced himself to Aziraphale the first time they met in the garden and reacted as if they had never met before. Something about him later behaving as if he did actually have those memories of their time in Heaven together and trying to pass it off as being someone different now. Something about Heaven's way of punishing angels that go against the plan by erasing their memories. Something about Crowley seeing Gabriel without his memory and saying "ask him properly." Something about "remember it now" "it hurts, to remember. my head isn't built for that" "I know. Do it anyway"

Something about "I know. Looking at where the furniture isn't"

Something about I know

[philzasjuicyass]

HOLY SHIT.

[maxiemumdamage]

Pentious going to Heaven after being killed by Adam already could’ve easily been enough of a curveball. But y’all.

He didn’t appear where the newly-arrived mortal souls do.

We see what it looks when a newly-dead person arrives in Heaven — they’re outside the pearly gates, talk to whichever Saint is working the Reception Desk, and then go in through the main promenade thingie.

Sir Pentious manifested in what seems to be Heaven’s highest offices. Which, in some ways, it might make sense he doesn’t take the usual front door — he’s not newly dead, he’s been in Hell for centuries! And he was a Sinner killed by an Angel, yet somehow still was considered virtuous, which probably puts him in a very odd position. But, physically? His position?

Is in Heaven’s innermost sanctum where the fucking Seraphim who LEAD Heaven are working.

(And sure, it could just have been an aesthetic choice. But it’s not like we haven’t seen Emily and Sera in the outer area of Hell — or that there couldn’t be a similar punchline by showing whatever Saint is on door duty try to deal with this small moral crisis. No, having him manifest right alongside Heaven’s leaders was a deliberate choice.)

What if Pentious isn’t just a winner now, but another Seraph?

If so…it could have some very interesting implications for the next souls to be redeemed.

[millymints]

she aint dead but damn this would go hard if she was 🩷

[tonydaddingham]

okay right im going to hijack this post because this is kind of a thought that has lazily pestered me ever since this LWA ask, specifically their reference to pascal's wager. for anyone not familiar, the basic principal argument is whether god existing, and the hypothetical subsequent belief in god, had an effect on the destination of the soul. there are multiple counter- and sub-arguments to the wager, but im going to keep it really basic (i am not an expert, anyway).

so the wager poses four outcomes, which can be summarised in the below grid; that depending on the respective existence of and belief in god, you stand to either gain eternal peace and happiness, or you stand to risk infernal damnation, or oblivion:

now, pascal put forward the wager in Pensées as a means that man should believe in god regardless, in the effort to reach salvation and reward. from Pensées:

"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is.... ..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is infinite chaos that separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.

as far i see pascal's explanation, god's ineffability is being defined as us not being able to know if god indeed exists or not. the counter to this, in GO, is that we know that god exists. so, only half of the wager is satisfied: there is either infinite reward, or infinite punishment.

we also see that there are human entities that are punished in GO, and punished for eternity (the nazis in ep4). but we don't necessarily know that their turning up in hell is at the will of god. which is where i come back to ineffability; as LWA points out, we know god exists, but what do we know of god's will?

does god in fact have any inclination to send people to heaven or to hell? does god have any stake in there? is there in fact any reward or indeed punishment exacted by god? is it that hell claimed the nazis for their own based on company policy, rather than as a result of any higher judgement on morality? is heaven even the ideal for good, moral souls to strive towards?

we know that heaven is not necessarily all its cracked up to be; does god agree? does god even care? does god instead 'believe' that humanity should just be good - specifically, do the right thing - for the benefit of its fellow human, rather than in hope for everlasting serenity? (insert further reading on nietzsche - the joyful wisdom or the gay science). is it truly free will if the promise of heavenly peace is what influences people's actions, rather than just the wish to do good for good's sake, entirely of their own volition?

pascal's wager cannot strongly hold in GO because of the concept of ineffability; the discourse of god's true will has been debated consistently throughout the narrative that it can only be concluded that no-one knows god's will. so how can we say the same of whether she wishes for souls to reach peace or punishment?

the above may not make a whole lot of sense, so ill just arrive at this; im not convinced we will ever actually see humans in heaven. the absence of them keeps open the question of the divide between god's will, and heaven's own corporate dogma, and that's - i think - going to be an especially crucial point in s3.

edit 27/08: just found this in neil's FAQs. make of it what you will. and again 30/08: this one too...

I just noticed this watch-through that we never see any humans in Heaven, not even Job. We see the Nazis being processed in Hell, but no one being processed in Heaven. Have you seen any answers as to why that is?

Hiya! :) My guess that it's because it wasn't relevant to the story Neil and Terry wanted to tell us yet :) <3

[quetzalpapalotl]

One of those Hua Cheng reverts to Wuming scenarios where Wuming comes to understand the that 1) He and Xie Lian are sexually and romantically entangled 2) Xie Lian is married to a ghost king named Hua Cheng. The conclusion he derives from this is that he is Xie Lian's lover?? servant he fucks sometimes?? some sort of concubine??? He is trying to figure out how legitimate their affair is.

[taeiris]

take me to church

churchgate has invaded my brain

[armageddidnt]

Good Omens dropping hints that Crowley has apparently Forgotten at least some of his former high-and-mighty angelic status in heaven.

[happypeachsludgeflower]

Modern day YouTube au where Xie Lian is infamous on the internet for his catastrophic cooking channel.

[tonydaddingham]

what the hell is going on in hell

this is essentially a braindump of ramble-y thoughts because the situation going on in hell is currently my new sub-fixation. a couple of things mentioned/shown in s2 would indicate the position that hell is currently in, and i dont think it's inaccurate to say that they appear somewhat stretched.

first up, we meet shax in ep1; she and crowley appear to have some kind of arrangement (ha) going in, where they are exchanging information - shax keeping crowley abreast of the goings on in hell, presumably so he can monitor his (and by extension - aziraphale's) safety being now an exiled retired demon... and crowley seems to be helping shax to assimilate to life topside, by means of teaching her behaviour that will mean she blends in more with humanity in her new role.

i did a post on bits of this scene, and on shax in general, that looked at how shax appears to be working somewhat with the favour of the higher-ups, possibly to the point of an unofficial informant, that would help her climb the career ladder. but i do wonder how far her allegiance lies, and actually how much she seems to know. in any case, a couple of things about this scene:

hell either doesn't know, or refuses to change, crowley's address for his post - they're still being sent to the flat in his name, and not his new abode, the bentley. furthermore, it's possibly even the case that hell hasn't even acknowledged that crowley has been replaced - they won't accept/recognise shax's signature.

however, shax appears to be very firmly in position as his replacement, and presumably has been for at least a little while. there's been a gap of 3/4 years between s1 and s2, so allowing for hell to be slow on the uptake in replacing crowley (as well as being initially shit-scared of him re: the holy water bath), plus shax is still learning things/remarking on how easy the job is, let's be really generous and say she's had the position, and the flat, for around six months. realistically though, estimating from her question about the boiler which, from crowley's tone, seems to be something that happens periodically, id say it's likely more around 1-3 months.

in any case, that's plenty of time for hell to update the records, right?*

same as crowley remarked in s1, it seems to be universally understood in hell that the ends justify the means; doesn't matter how things are done, just that they are. if shax echoes this sentiment, it supports that it must be true; hell doesn't give one shit about her interacting with crowley. this is supported by 1827; whether you look at it that crowley didn't secure elspeth's soul for hell through suicide, or that crowley was caught being good/nice in the general sense, either way it's strongly suggested that there is a consequence for him not doing the job. doesn't matter how it's done, only that it is.

ergo, hell doesn't care that shax is interacting with crowley, nor that she appears to be recruiting him as an intelligence source (despite his lackadaisical branding of 'traitor'), only that she does what she's ordered to. the issue is though, what are shax's orders at the moment? which leads me to the next one:

she lists three things, two of which don't appear to hold much importance to crowley, or at least he's not surprised by them. the first - he's still in hell's bad books: cool, not a surprise. the second, however, is the 'half rations' reveal. this brilliant post talks about this, because... well, what would demons feed on? or be interested in having, that holds any kind of importance to them? more on this later*. regardless though, crowley seems... to halfheartedly mull over the information? like its interesting, but not a major surprise? maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

the third thing though is the one that crowley perks up at: that something has happened in heaven. shax appears to admit that she doesn't know the details, and needs intelligence, which crowley brushes off. now, the thing that perplexes me is that - well, the conversation between michael and beelzebub hasn't happened yet, right?

could be that there has actually been a previous conversation between michael and beelzebub, where the news that gabriel has disappeared was revealed - and what we see above is a second conversation about the matter, now that it's gotten a little more urgent (hence the BOL threat)

or, that the two different scenes are out of chronological order... which honestly would be just plain weird.

the first option is possible, that beelzebub found out about gabriel from michael in a previous conversation (and told shax), and the one we see above is a follow-up.

but, in the crowley/shax conversation, shax doesn't actually seem to know that it's anything about gabriel, just that something's going on. so presumably, beelzebub doesn't know at that point either - not until the interaction above with michael. at which point, where did shax get her information from? how would shax have known shit was going on in heaven - even without the specifics - before it seems that even beelzebub knew? does shax have a different in-road with heaven?

(at which point, the only ones that appear to know about gabriel going missing, when it happens, is the metatron, michael, uriel, and saraqael - unless there's been a containment breach/someone else accessed the file? make of that what you will.)

*coming back to this point, on why hell hasn't gotten round to, or been bothered to, update the record that crowley is no longer an employee/in his flat, i think this is directly related simply to hell being short-staffed. i think it was mentioned in a BTS video somewhere, but the set design in hell purposefully included lots of files and folders to directly suggest that there is a huge backlog; whilst the higher-ups may be aware of shax replacing crowley, it doesn't appear to have reached the administrative offices:

as for why hell is short-staffed, ive toyed with it in previous posts/rbs but it would suggest that:

demons are disappearing - im thinking along the lines of the book of life, or just straight up being killed

demons are leaving - perhaps another mass rebellion?

demons aren't leaving but the numbers of the damned keep increasing - this, i think, is the most likely.

we don't know what the deal is with heaven, but presumably there is a separate facility for heavenly souls, and all we see in the show are the offices. in any case, it would kind of make sense that, if heaven is in fact taking its fair share of souls, even if lower-choir angels are attending to them... well, it's unlikely to extremely hands-on, is it; souls can be left to their eternal rest with minimal angelic involvement.

demons, however, are actively torturing their share of souls, such as is the purpose of hell, and this is definitely more hands-on; at which point, demons are going to be overworked/understaffed as the soul population increases. demons are only made from fallen angels, so the staffing situation is only going to get worse - hence why in s1, it was revealed not only that an estimate of 10 million demons exist, but that they would be pretty pissed about being told to go back to work. armageddon was meant to wipe out humans altogether (putting a stop to the ever increasing human population and therefore number of deaths), and bring about an eternal victory for one side or the other.

this, however, assumes that heaven is taking their fair share. i don't think it's necessarily the case that they're not (as i said, we haven't actually seen any areas where human souls exist in heaven - only the higher offices), but it's certainly possible that they're not, and they're all going to hell. at which point, why wouldn't heaven want more souls? isn't that ultimately the point of aziraphale and other earth-stationed angels? to bring about god's plan, but also sway humanity to the good? or is that the point - that human souls going to heaven or hell is inconsequential, and all that matters is the complete annihilation of one by the other?

1941 shows a bit more context for hell, in that we have what appears to be the main lobby, with multiple admissions demons (including shax and furfur) and there are chutes for transport into the lower floors/departments.

one thing i did notice as a small difference between 1941 and 2023, is the lights; this could be purely ambience/a single set design choice, but compare the scene where furfur has an audience with dagon, and the crowley/beelzebub chat - the lights in latter start flickering, like they are faulty or there is a power supply issue. this not appearing to happen in 1941 would suggest that the situation has gotten worse between these two points in time. it could just be for the ambience as i said, absolutely, but i think the line re: rations* could potentially be linked here.

another thing that interested me in 1941 is this:

pretty intriguing that the camera deliberately focuses on this, right? instead of continuing to track behind furfur? if it is Of Interest, what is the hourglass keeping time in, or counting down to? it could be the apocalypse, but if you consider the proportionality of sand in the top to the bottom, vs. the time that has passed since the Beginning vs. the next 78 years until armageddon, that seems... well, disproportionate? so could it be ticking down to something else, or does the hourglass time something, and it's just been recently flipped? at which point, why is it framed as so significant?

*returning to the "half-rations" point, there has to be due credit to this post by @that-ineffable-devil, it's such a good point; what do demons care about - is integral to their existence, and is essentially in short supply - that rationing would be necessary? crowley doesn't seem overly intrigued by the notion, but shax idly considers it important enough to share when prompted. op suggested that it's power; that there isn't enough (given that miracles appear to be drawn down from heaven/up from hell) to go around. op gave the great example of the ceiling leak in s1, but if the flickering lights, the broken lift mentioned by eric in ep5, and the excess backlog of filing in s2 is also anything to go by - yeah, these things could be solved with a demonic miracle or 'magical' intervention... so why aren't they?

gabriel cautions (putting it politely) aziraphale at some point around 1793 around using up 'frivolous miracles', which suggests that heaven was/is having a similar issue (or, alternatively, it was simply a power flex; to keep aziraphale in his place, so to speak). however, when we look at the archangels' reactions to the 25-lazarii miracle, their main concern understandably, given the plot, is what it signifies (ie. it's too coincidental to have occurred at the same time as gabriel going AWOL)... but not so much that there isn't enough power to allow a 25-lazarii miracle to go unchecked. instead, it seems like the sheer scale of it is just completely written off, that heaven doesn't actually care too much about how much power it seems to have partially drawn from heaven (ie. if it's a 50/50 split, 12.5 lz), and they seem to write it off like petty cash.

so tl;dr, hell might be having a power issue, but heaven doesn't appear to be sharing in it. i don't think it's anything to do with human souls fuelling miracles, because by the same logic (which i accept may be completely flawed. in fact id stake my life it is) the pool of power should be increasing, rather than decreasing - if more and more souls are being funnelled into hell and heaven respectively. so what if instead there's a leak somewhere - what if heaven is syphoning off power from hell? and when did the power leak start happening - was it to do with the failed apocalypse? is it actually nothing to do with heaven, but instead that because the soul population keeps going up and up, the power they actually have to contain and maintain them is stretched really thin? power can't be spared for lower-priority shit like filing and maintenance? why isn't heaven having the same issue? why is power seemingly finite, and where does it come from? does power actually come from god? or does it directly parallel to humanity's faith (and, presumably, the dwindling amount of it) in god? but heaven is closer to god, so they haven't yet been hit with the shortage?

this is still flummoxing me slightly - if there even is any answer to be had/if there's anything deeper to be read here - but the post is already long enough that it's probably best to leave it there... ideas very much welcome!!!✨

[bunnieswithknives]

hey in ur peri animatic: (https://youtu.be/OCqlRuDaXYU?si=K52WDu_vw9rg7chz) that I have been permanently obsessed over since today and have watched about 20 times by now so much that I have drawn & posted stuff based on it what was that partial bug form peri had?

I haven’t watched either of the show btw so if it’s explained in the show please tell me plsssss

OK, SO the bug thing is not technically canon to the series. It's based on my own headcanons for fairy biology, but i do have justifications for it!! Fairies have very strong shape-shifting abilities, so it would make sense that the form they show to humans isn't necessarily their true form(not to mention extreme that mimicry is very common in insects). And you want to know the visible traits almost every fairy has in common? Being very small with Insect-like wings.

The fact that their humanoid form isn't their true form in actually confirmed in the show! Cosmo and Wanda are revealed to look like biblically accurate pseudo-angels in the museum episode. (I say pseudo angels because the Flaming Sword of Eden is only debatably sentient and I don't think is considered an angel. Ophanim are also debatably not angels because they don't have wings (sorry for the angel tangent I like angels))

So wouldn't their true forms be angelic then? Well, yes. But I like bugs so. Also I have more headcanons to justify myself. I like to think that they have both a true-true form (incomprehensible to the human brain, probably exists mostly in a dimension invisible to us, that looks how we imagine biblically accurate angels), and a fairy form (which is visible to humans but is naturally very insect like and tends to scare people). So, in order to interact with humans, they have to learn to shapeshift into a humanoid form but will occasionally slip if they get too relaxed/aren't careful, hence the mandibles coming out when he yawns!

The reason they struggle so much more with human forms than the animals or objects they typically turn into is that, well, they aren't trying to convince those animals or objects. The more human they try to look, the harder it is to keep up convincingly. If you turn into a really uncanny squirrel, only other squirrels will notice. If you turn into a really uncanny human, they form a lynch mob and burn you at the stake.

[m1ssunderstanding]

[philzasjuicyass]

Ok, so. Heaven.

In the court in ep6, we see 5 different types of angels (on top of the Seraphim).

In the middle there are moth/bug-looking ones (mix of antenna/no antenna). Then we've got the birdies (the ones at the top have extra Long Feathers) and the very demonic looking horned ones at the bottom. (And this one guy at the top with the eyed appendages)

On top of those are what I think are Ophanim; wheels with eyes on them at the top. We see them in the beginning narration of ep1,

And it looks like two of the angels we saw creating Earth might also be Ophanim (the 2 lower ones)

One of these angels was clearly Sera, a Seraph we later see accompanied by Emily. Sera is the "Head Seraph" and expresses that it's her job to take care of things since she's older.

People have theorized that Seniority is an important thing among angels because of that and how, in the ep1 narration, it's said the Elders of Heaven disapproved of Lucifer's ideas for creation.

We are shown 6 angels here (7 including Lucifer), all of them with unique halos (and heads!) making them distinct from each other.

And in ep5, we see the same group of 6 with the exact same halos again

Except this time they're even more distinct, with distinguishing silhouettes&markings added.

Seven angels, including Lucifer? Almost like... the Archangels?

[sighed-the-snake]

I've just noticed something. Compare these images of Muriel in their Heavenly uniform and the feathers of this nightingale.

The skirt and the feathers are the same, stiff and straight across at the tail. Muriel's skirt is longer in the back to give the look of tail feathers. The color of their uniform is the same as the nightingale's breast. There are pops of color, sure, but I think that's just to signify they work under Saraqael.

I think Muriel, the supposed nobody of Heaven, is going to be the nightingale that brings our heroes together in the last installment of the show.

[melbatron5000]

The Big Damn Kiss

Buckle up, my fellow Good Omens Ineffable Mystery Puzzlers, Crackpotters, and Assorted Brainrotters, because I learned something HUGE yesterday.

This will be a bit of a long post, because I want to show you exactly how I got where I am. I want you to understand. I want to put all the naysayers to bed (ha! But I'm still gonna try), and settle this once and for all.

I know (almost) exactly what Crowley gave to Aziraphale during the kiss.

DO NOT TAKE ANY OF MY THEORIES TO NEIL! PLEASE!

Okay? Okay. Thanks. Shall we begin?

Ahem.

Firstly, whether you believe me or not, I am 100% certain that Crowley did, indeed, give something to Aziraphale in his mouth during The Kiss. I've covered that in the link previous. Okay? Okay.

I did not know what it was. I've now heard theories that it was a bullet (nope), a ball bearing (nope), hellfire (nope), and no one, NO ONE has suggested what I see. (If you have, hello! Talk to me!)

Here's our first foreshadowing Clue:

And here's our next foreshadowing Clue:

And the next:

And our last Clue:

With me so far? Well, that first GIF is a bit off, I couldn't find one of Crowley actually spitting out the flies. But he does. When Beelzebub first drags him to Hell, he actually goes "Pleaugh!" and spits out four or five flies. Edit: Found it!

Moving right along, we come to Crowley in Heaven with Muriel, looking at the trial. We learn two important things here:

One, Gabriel doesn't have a desk.

Two, Muriel does. Where they keep the records. And it's a bit lonely. Every few hundred years, someone comes and asks for something. Muriel can't access the sensitive ones, you have to be pretty high up. A throne, dominion, or higher. Like, maybe Supreme Archangel?

So if Gabriel doesn't have a desk, whose desk is he at when he's getting ready to leave Heaven? Of course I can't find a damn picture of Gabriel at the desk, but it's Muriel's. Where they keep the RECORDS.

Gabriel puts his memory into the fly, then gets on the elevator to go to Earth.

Now, when Gabriel opens the fly with his memories inside, we find out that it's a container. Bigger on the inside. You can put thing(S) in it. The bit we see of him remembering is shot in two parts, one where he's flying down a red tunnel, one where he's flying down a blue. If you slow this scene down and watch, you can see that he is NOT looking at just his own memories. There is more going on here, more that he was not present for. @embracing-the-ineffable put up a great meta about that here. Go look!

Now I figured Gabriel must have taken something else. Something important. Something useful. Something he meant to give to Aziraphale, except he forgot.

I also figured he must have left whatever it was in the fly when he took his memories out. Crowley must have realized while watching the trial footage that Gabriel also grabbed something else. I don't know when Crowley grabs the fly, but he does. And that is what he gives to Aziraphale in the kiss. Why? Well.

I had no idea what Gabriel took until I started working on the chiastic structure of season 2. I'm not done with that analysis yet, but let me show you one thing that I have found so far:

(The numbers are just to try and help me navigate the story and its events without time stamps)

My note #357 of what happens isn't quite right, but when I saw the only two times Aziraphale says "I forgive you" are towards the beginning of Season 2 and towards the end, I realized I had something.

Rephrase line 357: Crowley's kiss is forgiven IN EXCHANGE FOR RECORDS.

(Not that I think Crowley's kiss needs to be forgiven. It's just what Aziraphale says, and had to say at that moment, because the Metatron was listening in.)

What does Heaven in Good Omens remind us of most of all?

A big corporate entity. And what do powerful people do when they get fired from a big corporate entity? They download all their emails while they're cleaning out their desks. Damning emails. Emails that can be used to black mail or even destroy big corporate entities. Or, ya know, maybe they swipe some sensitive RECORDS?

Oh yes.

Records that Gabriel meant to give to Aziraphale, but he forgot. Records that Crowley realized Gabriel had put in the fly. The fly that Crowley grabbed once Gabriel had his memory out. The fly that he gave to Aziraphale when he kissed him. The fly that no longer held Gabriel's memory, but did still contain those damning records.

Here's Aziraphale reading the records:

Here's Aziraphale being horrified and outraged by what he's reading:

And here's Aziraphale realizing he has got some GOOD DIRT on Heaven. Maybe enough to bring them down:

That's it folks. I have no idea what the records actually say, and maybe we're not meant to know until season 3, but whatever it is, it's GOOD.

That's my story, and by God Herself, I'm sticking to it.