#he’s just becoming more like Dean

[witha-boxofscraps]

Watching S3E9 of Supernatural and seeing the heartbreak and self hatred in Dean’s face when Sam tells him that the reason he’s becoming the very opposite of the good he’s always been is because he’s finally having to become his older brother is enough to ruin the next 10 years of my life.

[sammygender]

its so so insane how dean has like. the huge fanbase he does. he is AWFUL!!!! i love him truly but im known for loving awful characters in fandoms im used to characters who act like him being viciously hated!!! and the only explanation i can think of is that hes played by jensen ackles (aka pretty white man). theres the fact that the narrative favours dean a lot when hes not actually right (a la s4) but thats not just it because dean is pretty clear-cut presesnted as getting morally greyer to the point of antihero territory in like s9 (where im at) at least. and Yet. he is unproblematic ally king to all??? supportive brother of the century??? Girl what???? do you know who dean winchester is? he is a controlling possessive clingy manipulative aggressive unstable thirty five year old who cant grow past his own damage and never really will because the narrative is perpetuated by the cycles he keeps perpetuating

[quietwingsinthesky]

it ever hit you out of nowhere that castiel is living in a dead guy's body and the show just does not care. it does not care. jimmy novak might as well not exist the moment he or claire is out of sight. cas stole a guy's body and his face and his life, and we can't ever talk about it or discuss it in detail because of how fucking horrifying it is that sam and dean's best friend just walks around in a dead guy suit. there's not even a human soul in there anymore. it's just a corpse. stone-cold body snatcher indeed.

[dirty-droid]

So I played through some more dbh last night and woke up thinking, God, there is a good reason Markus and Kara, and their respective companions never got as popular as Connor and Hank. Literally The Bridge is surrounded by the most *do everything for absolutely no reason* chapters, and there's no comparison.

First the Kara chapter wastes your time, she barely gets any small talk in with Luther, then the car breaks down, then you're just doing tiny tasks, doing a shitty sum up of her story so far when Alice asks you to make one up- they could have done something interesting with that story but they chose not to, literally anything specific anything that would function as a parallel to their journey would have actually had some value. Then you barely start a conversation with Luther, where are you maybe get a hint of his personality before we're back to just talking about the plot and Alice, but then it's over again and you meet the Jerries and you learn almost nothing about them.

It is a chapter where you do nothing interesting, and you learn almost nothing about the main characters, for a downtime chapter, I expect character development and get barely a sneeze of it. There is so much room and so much time for you to really push and question your main characters but it just doesn't get used.

Honestly I think the protagonists all could have probably really benefited from the audience getting to hear their internal monologues if they weren't actually going to talk to their companion characters, but even that would just be a substitute for decent writing.

Either way, after that, we come back to Connor and Hank, who do almost no tasks in this chapter, *but spend the entire time TALKING.* They talk to each other in a constant volley back and forth for the entire length of the chapter and it's probably one of the best chapters in the game, it's certainly one of the most important in their story. You spend the entire bridge scene learning more about Hank and Connor's inner worlds, and how they think, and how they feel, you spend the whole chapter learning so much about their perspectives, this chapter is all about asking the hard questions about both of their individual characters, and the tension is high, it's a straightforward chapter to play, and it really fucking feels like your choices matter here, there will be immediate consequences, not just walking through your environment trying to find the right answer, or being dragged through an interaction. It's just plain good.

And then Markus infiltrates the Stratford Tower, and you get the most boring and useless and frustrating chapter in the game that doesn't seem to serve any purpose beyond looking cool. If Kara's last chapter was only to gain sympathy and create some soft and fuzzy feelings, this chapter is only about looking cinematic. This is probably my least favorite chapter in the game, honestly I've just gotten lost on that yellow ass office floor building too many times, even though I'm very familiar with the game now I still managed to get lost again last night.

I will admit that eventually it does become an opportunity to decide between pacifism and violence but that seems to be the only real development for Markus, and it wouldn't have been hard to make that kind of opportunity in another setting. Because we get next to nothing watching him get past the front desk, or from walking around that floor, just some outfit changes and pretending to be a machine and a little more Android hate in the background, Markus is almost completely silent yet again, there is almost no talking with North once she appears. We actually get more about North's personality here than Markus', she just feels like she has more lines somehow, because sometimes she just talks without it being connected to the plot and Markus never does.

This bit is more speculative, but my fiance and I were going off last night about whyyyy did they have to break into the tower? We're never given any reason for what the steps are and why they are important, just usually pretty important in these mission impossible type scenes, they're usually explaining in a voice-over why they are taking the steps that they are taking. But we get no explanation for why he needs to go to the 47th floor or whatever, No explanation for why he needs to change into a maintenance Android uniform, why North was in the stairwell, how Josh and Simon got in, it's all just handwaved, and whyyyyyy they couldn't have just?? Made a recording and then hacked the station's broadcast remotely and basically just posted the speech? I don't know, it's just a particularly frustrating chapter to play, personally, but it isn't strong.

Either way, you've got two chapters with next to no character development, that just have a lot of empty space and time where the characters could have been talking or could have been doing something else, but didn't because the vibes were more important, sandwiching a simple scene with ten pounds of character development and it just feels weird. And once I noticed it, it just made the Kara and Markus chapters look incredibly weak and poorly written... And conversely, make the Connor and Hank chapter look much, much stronger in comparison.

It's like Detroit become human almost needs it's own type of Bechdel Test, just to show how much they fail Markus and Kara. "Do they talk about something that isn't the plot?"

"Do Kara and Luther talk about something that isn't Alice or getting to Canada?" "Does Markus talk about anything besides his speech for this chapter?" "Does Alice talk at all beyond basic communication with Kara?" "Does Markus or his buddies talk about anything that's not the revolution or just Markus himself?"

... They don't pass a lot.

It's just hard to take these characters above simply *likeable* when they just, don't, ever, talk. There's little to no development for Markus or Kara, and because they've just become deviants, there's hardly any character establishment in the first place, they barely even get the chance to just be flat, because if they don't really know who they are, we don't really know who they are.

Connor and Hank's friendship is more functionally the main plot, more so than the deviant investigation, and for Markus and the team, and Kara with Alice, that's simply just not the case, there is hardly any relationship, they're just in the same boat. This is why Connor got astronomically more popular, and why he and Hank have the staying power that they do.

Markus and Kara just don't ever talk, and Connor does. And I'm fucking mad about it. The amount of time that was just wasted in their stories, I could probably take a damn stopwatch to all the moments where there could have been a little something-something, and nothing was put there. It's not to say Connor doesn't get some quiet moments too but he always gets the chance to make up for it.

Even at the beginning of the Stratford Tower chapter, I noticed that they could have had Simon and North talking about something maybe unrelated when Markus walks up, but there's nothing, only silence until Markus comes in with a plan. And of course we know about every time Luther tries to bring up the fact that Alice is an android, only to be shut down and walked away from. It fucking kills me how much time Mark is has the focus of the camera but it's only so he could look cool for a minute, and share no thoughts of his own, none of his new feelings, everything is only implied and then followed by the action where he is only allowed to be the leader of the revolution and never just Markus. There's a tragedy in that, but they could have driven it home harder by *pointing that out.*

[blacknidstang]

Late seasons dean would soooo spank the hell out of early seasons sam. They'd be soo ruthless to each other but dean would have the upper hand and will put bitchy lil early seasons sammy in his place. He would have no patience for sam's brattiness and sam would be so rude to him and so angry at his overbearing dominance. It would be one delicious horrible interaction

[incesthemes]

"their relationship is romantic" "their relationship is familial" "their relationship is platonic" you're thinking too narrow. their relationship goes beyond labels. the family is inherently queer. their platonic love is romantic. the erotic is familial. each one is the other and the other is them

[sendmyresignation]

truly nothing on this earth is more foul than supernatural familial abuse discourse but specifically the discourse people have about if sam or dean "had it worse" like ok cool you have already missed the point of this show very hard.

[loregirlsam]

Ikr! Especially because he was not technically supposed to survive possession. He was supposed to die in the fight so who knows what kind of side effects he's gonna end up with. Maybe he's left with some of Lucifer's tricks. Like he snaps his fingers once and the person next to him is instantly vaporized. That would be very fun for me personally

that would also be very fun for me <3 i love when sam is in pain and i think accidentally vaporising/killing someone with his powers would cause so much guilt for him, but also fear that dean will once again see sam as something to be hunted like he told him in s4. @supamerchant left some interesting tags about his emotions affecting his powers, so the more upset he gets with himself the more his powers fuck things up, a never ending feedback loop overwhelming him to the point where he'd do anything just to make it stop. and maybe his desire to make it all stop is fuelled by hallucifer taunting him that its his own grace left inside sam that's causing all of this, and sam thought being lucifers vessel was bad but having his grace linger in him might be worse.

i promise i do like sam i just like causing him pain ♥

[doverstar]

joseph gordon-levitt called jim hawkins "just a very good-looking wasp of a boy that I will never be" and I've been thinking about that for two weeks

[aj-lenoire]

i know it’s 2023 but i have a lot of Thoughts™ on demon!dean and since this is my corner of the internet and i can talk about whatever i goddamn like we’re gonna talk about how they squandered the deanmon potential—yes i know this was back in 2015 what’s your point misha had to come out as straight last year this train is never stopping

cause like, i remember all the promo spots being off the shits like ‘THIS…IS THE YEAR…OF THE DEANMON!!!!’

and i was psyched, and then it turned out to be like, 3 episodes. and he just sang terrible karaoke. the worst thing he did was try to grope a woman—which, obviously, is a shitty thing to do, but isn’t on the same level as like, torturing her to death

it just—it could’ve been so damn cool. imagine, like, castiel trying to reason with him, and since angels see demons as they truly are, not who they’re wearing (also: was deanmon possessing his own corpse? could he have possessed another human? i haven’t rewatched since it aired but like… did they ever clarify that??) he can see like this mutilated thing that he knows is his friend, but it’s almost beyond recognition

and deanmon is basically a soulless human, functionally, because he doesn’t care about anything or anyone except himself and what he wants, and these two guys with their ‘i know you’re in there somewhere’ and ‘this isn’t the real you’ crap are really getting on his nerves, so he’s coming out with stuff like how, it was forty years in hell, therefore alistair knew him longer than sam or cas, alistair made him into what he is now, and he’s so grateful bc he’s no longer snivelling over every insignificant dead human they come across. humans are so pathetically fragile after all, why bother trying to save them?

just IMAGINE the potential—the futility of cas raising him from perdition! because this was always who he was meant to become, what he was going to be, and cas was just delaying the inevitable—because dean’s whole life has been authority figures forging him into their weapon. all cas was trying to do was swap out one blacksmith for another

and yeah i know they needed to wrap up the deanmon thing sharpish because of the 300th episode but like… they could’ve made 300 a flashback. like a fun-ish job the boys did years prior, and at the end of the episode sam suddenly wakes up because he was dreaming of that hunt and in remembering it he’s had a ~breakthrough~ on how to help dean—and THAT’S how he knows where to look and finds out about the blood injection nonsense

(i still cannot believe it was THAT SIMPLE to cure someone of being a demon. and that dean was also allegedly a knight of hell or some bullshit)

like we could’ve had a solid half-a-season of deanmon, we get to see the full range of what he was actually capable of. he still blows off crowley, obviously, because he doesn’t need to be babysat, he doesn’t need someone to line up a murder-y demon deal for him like he’s on an enrichment program at the zoo

sam hasn’t seen him in several episodes, he’s still trying to figure out how to get dean back, if he can get dean back, and he’s doing hunts in between because he feels morally obligated to, or he needs money, or he’s doing it for someone in return for info on the dean thing—whatever

dean rocks up to where sam’s working on a job, and at first you just think he’s there to piss sam off and generally fuck around, and sam just can’t look at him and can’t be near him cause it’s so obviously not his brother and he doesn’t want to risk dean realising he’s searching for a fix, because he genuinely, deeply fears that this thing with his brother’s face will try to kill him.

but dean’s going around telling everyone that sam’s his brother and forcing sam to play nice because they’re in front of people, and dean makes very clear what will happen if sam doesn’t play nice and doesn’t let dean do as he likes—and sam’s just disgusted and uneasy

and once sam finishes the job—having bonded slightly with whoever was being attacked—he tells dean to leave him the hell alone, and leaves the town. and dean stays behind, seemingly honouring his brother’s wishes—is there hope?

but that night‚ dean goes to the house of whoever sam helped on the hunt. maybe it’s a cute suburban family‚ maybe it’s a college girl whose friend was killed, but he knocks on the door and says he’s dean and he’s sam’s brother and they’re estranged and he doesn’t know where sam went—could she help him? so she invites him in‚ because sam is the kind guy who just saved her life, and his brother is just as charming and handsome and seems like a nice dude, and the last thing we see is dean (from behind) as he enters‚ and he’s holding the first blade behind his back and the door just slowly swings shut. cut to black.

and later—maybe not next episode‚ maybe the viewers are left to stew for a bit—dean calls sam and tells him what he did. that the people sam risked his life to save are dead. sam ended up not making a difference at all. and the most fucked up part is that he sounds exactly like regular dean as he says all this—using the same slang and chirpy tone like he’s talking about music. and in that same cheerful tone, he warns sam not to try ordering him around ever again.

dean enjoyed being a hunter, he enjoyed the heroism and simplicity of killing bad guys and saving good guys. now, with the first blade making him crave blood? without that pesky conscience? he doesn’t much care about good or bad anymore. he cares that this guy still sees him as his poor, tragic brother, and is still trying to save him, so killing the people that this guy just saved? it’s fun. it’s funny. this guy is annoying him with this ‘i know you’re in there’ talk but this is him, and he likes it, and he likes watching sam fret over fragile, insignificant humans because sam is just as pathetic

[sammygender]

trans headcanons of the winchesters are always extremely fun to play around with and i can see most of them. but one that always rings slightly false to me, despite a love for it due to self-identification and the fact it’s definitely interesting, is transmasculine dean. simply because if you’re going according to canon this would require him to have transitioned at some point prior to johns death, probably much prior, probably as a youngish kid. and i genuinely do not think that ever could’ve happened. he values johns approval too much and is too scared of demanding too much of him.

like even aside from whether john is Actually transphobic (i doubt he’s like Cartoonishly transphobic he probably would be annoyed by it slash not care much, interpret ‘not caring’ however you want) just the whole Thing of coming out where you’re like. “Hey dad im actually a human person who has an internal sense of self and such that doesn’t happen to be You 2.0 and am not the gender you thought i was and i feel emotions to such an extent that i actually like need to transition”…….

no fucking way dean would ever be able to do that to john while he’s still alive. please. teenage transmasculine dean would be like Well yeah sure i want to be a guy but that’s not an option for me whatsofuckingever. and crucially he’d be like that even if he knew entirely about trans people. now this is why transfemme dean works so well. because you just know it would take her at least thirty years to even consider it for a singular second.

on the other hand transmasc sam works so well because you can picture teenage transmasculine sam realising he’s a boy and promptly making it part of the whole entirely justified and very cool and fun teen angst rebellion FUCK YOU DAD thing. he could let spite carry him to the point of coming out. dean? he is burying that shit deep.

[quietwingsinthesky]

like. okay. i have no real horse in the race of “which brother is the secret bad abuser” because the show does not actually care about that or think that either of them is actually treating each other that badly (except for when sam get manipulated, which is always his own fault and he should suffer for it /s)

but what i will say is that the way dean is written sometimes manages to make me more uncomfortable than any of the villains on this show. dean scares me. completely unintentionally, they did write a guy who only gets Worse over time, and it’s compelling, and it’s upsetting for me to watch.

[persefoneshalott]

One of Dean's most frustrating trait for me is that he's against immortality and has these idea of what's 'natural' 'what's dead should be dead' etc (sam excluded ofc) This is why while he'll go and sacrifice himself to save Sam he'd never be like 'oh hey if we do this spell, dead Sam can come back and live in my brain and both our spirits can live in the same body' or some freaky shit like that, if he ever ran into something like that and thought it was the only option to save Sam he'd just book it out of his own body so that Sam can have it. whereas Sam would be like fuck yeah this is a great first step before I find a better way to get him back and as we know from canon would be willing to have innocent people die so Dean can stay alive

[soullessjack]

speaking of tfw2.0 every time i see titkok edits or tfw2.0 discussion posts here with a significant lack of jack in them I just kinda sorta

[queerbluebird]

is there literally anyone left in this godforsaken place who understands that bisexuality is not a pitstop on the way to being gay. it is not halfway to gay. "at least bi." no. "bi at minimum" n.o. bisexuality is a queerness unto itself.

"it's not bisexual erasure" listen to me, if you have to put as much effort into explaining away his attraction to women to prove that he's gay as other people have to put into explaining away his attraction to men to prove that he's straight it's because he is BISEXUAL.

[acesammy]

I wish spn handled its monsters better. I wish spn knew how to cope with having 2 leads be monsters. I feel like so many of the things about this show that make me want to scream would be fixed if the writers didn’t think they needed their monster characters to be de-powered in order to be ‘good’