#gypsy jib

[dykepuffs]

Hello! Hope I'm not bothering you but I found your post about "How Do I Make My Fictional Gypsies Not Racist?" and I wanted to ask you something if it's ok with you. The post cached my attention because you use the term gypsy with easiness and I'm curious about how it's that, because as far as the internet says it's a derogatory term.

It's not the first time I've seen somebody use that word, but the person who used it was Roma, if I remember correctly.

This is absolutely not to accuse you of anything, I just want to know your perspective! Thank you and have a nice day!

Hallo!

Yes, I hoped I'd answered this is my main post but, I'll answer it more explicitly and from more angles here - It'll be in sections because I have a lot of thoughts and they're not in any particular order.

I won't be using asterisks to obscure any words in this post, because precision is important and I don't want to leave any ambiguities about which words I mean, so CN for words for Romani people that are often derogatory, for the rest of the post.

1) Is Gypsy a derogatory word?

Gypsy is an untranslatable word, in that the exact lexical field covered by "Gypsy" isn't matched by any words in other languages. Sometimes, people translate tzigane, gitano, zigeuner, cíkanská etc as "Gypsy" but that's really imprecise and causes more problems - These words aren't all calques or related.

The ones which sound broadly like "sigan" (Cigan, tzigane, zigeuner, cíkanský etc) most likely come via the Balkans and the Ancient Greek word "Athinganoi/Athinganos" - Unambiguously a rude word, untouchable, a caste of itinerant fortune-tellers in the Byzantine Empire, which was applied much in the same way as "Tink/tinker" was applied to Scottish and Irish Travellers - a trade as a synecdoche of a people, and specifically a stigmatised trade at that. And they usually are very much derogatory words (but even then - you will meet Roma living in Romania and Hungary and Czechia etc who do use those words for themselves, and they will have as complicated a relationship with them as we do with Gypsy)

Gypsy... We're less sure. We know it comes from "Egyptians", first applied in Scotland and England to recent Romani migrants in the late 1400s or early 1500s (We see it in the naming of the Egyptians Acts in 1501 and 1531, which refer to both Egyptians and "Counterfeit Egyptians" - Meaning those Romani people, and the local Britons who lived with them, travelled with them and did the same itinerant trades. Presumably, the "Counterfeit Egyptians" of the previous 500 years intermixing with Romani people are why modern Romany (Romanichal, Angloromany, English Travellers, whatever you call us) are so pale compared to southern and eastern European Roma.

But why "Egyptians", we aren't really sure. Top contenders are:

1) The Romani people deliberately passed themselves off as Coptic Egyptians, hoping for welcome as fellow-Christians.

2) Local Britons mistook these brightly-dressed dark-skinned people, speaking an unknown language, for Egyptians.

3) To someone who spoke English, and maybe could recognise French, Dutch, Latin or other especially northern European trading languages, the Romanes language of the time that was closer to Hindi, with Greek and Romanian loanwords, would sound unintelligible - We think that's where we get the English word "Jibberish" and "Jibber" from, from the Romanes word "chib/jib"-"Language". But, potentially, does "Gypsy" come from "Jib-sy", taking the common English slang format of adding "-ies" "-sie" to the end of something to make a name for something from a feature of it (Like "walky-talky" for a portable two way radio, "bluey" to describe a merled dog, "pinky" for a mouse or rabbit before it has fur, "Geordie" and "Cockney" and various other local demonyms) - Potentially we are "The ones that speak the chib" - "the chibsies".

4) It was related to a preexisting racial slur, the idea of "Egyptian" to mean a bizarre, foreign, alien version of something- Hermetics were often called "Egyptian" around the same period, because of their strange rites and beliefs, which were popularly associated with Egypt (As was Hermes Trismagestus).

5) The port area in the Netherlands where they sailed to Scotland from was potentially "Little Egypt" and they were named as such for their port of departure, as migrations are often named for their port of arrival, or departure, or the boat they came on - like talking about Plymouth colonists, Windrush generation, Ellis Island immigrants.

What we do know though, is that the first people that the word Gypsy was applied to, were the ancestors of the modern English-speaking Romany and Kale people of Scotland, England and Wales (ie, my personal ancestors) - Most of whom use "Gypsy" as their preferred word to describe themselves. (Further complications: Other Traveller groups in the UK who also in some contexts will call themselves Gypsies, Water-Gypsies, Irish Gypsies, Gypsy Travellers, who may or may not see themselves as Romani but who often have interlaced family trees and traditions with Romanichal and Kale families.)

Personally, as a Romany Gypsy I usually call myself a Gypsy in English for two reasons:

1) Because in singular, I'd have to choose rom/rawni - not just man/woman but also husband/wife, because our words for adult man/adult woman are the same as the word for husband/wife, and I usually don't want to do that; I'm unmarried, but too old to call myself chavo, and I usually don't want to be explicit about my gender in that way anyway.

2) because the other words for us in English are Romani loanwords. The Romani language is still stigmatised in England, and doubly so Angloromanes, our paralanguage/mixed-language/creole - Children raised speaking it are described as being in "linguistic poverty", we are disciplined at school for "speaking in code" (i still have a speech impediment in Romanes that I don't have in English, after being tortured and humiliated by teachers at school for speaking Romanes. Even getting out a couple of words, I stutter and fail, from shame) - and the police and courts describe our language as "thieves' cant" and further punish us for speaking it, they still treat people speaking it as evidence of planning crimes, a final vestige of those Egyptians Acts which levied the death sentence on anyone speaking Romany.

So when a gorjer prefers that I call myself Rromani rather than Gypsy, I hear that as a demand to perform my language for them, for their titillation and for their comfort, so that they can try to forget that for hundreds of years we have been executed, imprisoned, transported, beaten, and treated as second class citizens, for speaking our language. So, no, gorjers don't get to hear one single beautiful word of our language, they can hear "Gypsy" and their ears can burn with the shame of what they still do to us.

So is Gypsy a word that gorjers should use?

Context matters.

Are you talking about an organisation like the Gypsy Lore Society, or a modern Gypsy And Traveller Exchange, or things made by us like Gypsy Pegs, Gypsy Flowers, Gypsy Bangles, Gypsy Jazz? Go for it, use the capital G, in the same way as you capitalise French food, German engineering, Ukrainian poetry. If an organisation describes itself as being for Roma, don't assume that you can translate that to 'for Gypsies', but likewise you can't assume that 'for Gypsies' can be translated to 'for Roma' - All Roma are Romani, not all Romani are Roma (As in, they might be Sinti, Manouche, Roma, Romanisael, Kale, Romany... etc).

Do you want to describe something made by gorjers as Gypsy-like, or describe a gorjer as being like a Gypsy... Then don't.

There is probably a second post to write about this, on the theory of "Gypsy-ing", how the archetype of the Gypsy is created and applied to populations in different ways, but this is already very long and very tiring so, thank you for bearing with me this far!

[tulunnguaq]

Linguistic Excursions #8:  Romany (of England)

So the next stop in my virtual world tour of my bookshelves takes me to Kent in England, inspired by a recent interesting find in a second-hand bookstore: Gypsy Jib: A Romany Dictionary, by James Hayward.

I didn't know much about the Romany people or language before this, and the book gives a compact history as to how the Romany nation started essentially as a conscripted army from various ethnic groups, brought together 1000 years ago to help in battles between Hindu and Muslim peoples, starting in northern India and pursuing the enemy on into Persia. In the meantime, their Hindu homeland fell to the Muslims, and the displaced warriors, a disparate group formed from Lohars, Gujars, Tandas and Rajputs melded together and having no natural ‘home’ started a long journey west, reaching Greece in 1290, Hungary in 1383, France in 1418 and Scotland in 1505 (and from there to England).

The book also records some of the cultural history of the Romany/Gypsy people in England - the author himself being the grandson of one of the well-documented Scamp family, whose roots could be traced back to the 1500s. The family connection with Kent arose due to the seasonal nature of hop-picking in the county, which favoured the mobile and entrepreneurial lifestyle of the Gypsies [NB the author uses the term Romany/Gypsy somewhat interchangeably, and I’ve also done so occasionally here], who were able to arrive and leave as a self-contained labour force with their own mobile accommodation, and in fact the relative wealth they earned from this activity even created a lively market for manufacturers of 'well-designed waggons of great charm and beauty'.

The Romany language

The vocabulary of the Romany language as used in Britain and as described in the dictionary is largely derived from the various Indian languages and dialects that made up the original Romany people in India, and enhanced by a number of loans from languages such as Greek and Hungarian, reflecting the Romany people’s westward trek over the centuries. 

Having reached England, the language was Anglicised significantly, most noticeably in terms of the grammar. Essentially the verbal structure of English (-s, -ed, -ing) began to be applied to Romany roots, as well as English word order. English plural form -s was also generalised. New nouns were also created through borrowing or by creating calques or new compounds. An example being dur-dikki-mengri - 'far-seeing-thing' ie telescope.  Note also the term lavengro - word person = linguist!

The Romany people also followed a similar approach to personal names and place names, creating their own 'translated' Romany versions, no doubt allowing them some measure of privacy when discussing matters in the vicinity of the 'Gorgios' (non-Gypsies). Examples being:

Names

Smith - Petulengro - lit. 'horseshoe-man' - 'smith'

Marshall - Mokkado Tan - lit. 'wet place' - 'marsh'

Taylor - Sivamengro - lit. ‘needle-man’ - ‘tailor’

Places

Kaulo Parni - lit. 'black water' - Blackpool

Mailla gav - lit. 'donkey town' - Doncaster

Caseski tem - lit. 'cheese country' – Cheshire

Boro gav – lit. ‘big town’ – London

Sample Text - The Lord's Prayer

As an example of written Romany, I’ve set out the Lord’s Prayer below, which is also quoted in the dictionary (NB the spelling is the author's, who also notes that other forms are possible).

Amaro Dadrus Savo jives drey o tem oprey Be sherrafo tiro nav Avel tiro [tem]* Be kaired tiro buti Oprey o poov sar drey o tem oprey Del mande to-divvus amaro divvesko morro Ta fordel mande mande’s pizarripens Sar mande fordels wafor mushes lengues pizarripens Ta ma sik mande o drom te temptation But lel mande abri fon wafodupen For tiro se o tem O ruslipen ta o corami Cana ta ever-komi [Si]** covar ajaw.

*word missing from printed text – presumably a typo ** printed text says “So” but this seems to be a typo

amaro our dadrus father savo who jives  lives drey  in o the tem  country/land/kingdom oprey above, on –hence tem oprey heaven be as in English sherrafo religious, hallowed tiro your, yours, thine nav name avel come kair to do, make  be kaired be done buti work (the dictionary also lists (doovels) kerrimus for (Lord’s ) will which might otherwise be expected here - note also the image below which uses “caumes” in this place) poov earth, ground sar as del give mande I, me, but here presumably us to-divvus  today divvesko  daily morro bread ta and fordel forgive (NB from English for + Romany del) mande’s my, but here presumably our pizarripens debts (presumably – this wasn’t listed in the dictionary) mande fordels I forgive/we forgive (note use of third person -s ending with first person pronoun) wafor  other mushes men lengues their(s) ma  no, not sik show drom road (cf Greek δρόμος) te to temptation English word but English word lel take abri out, away fon from wafodupen wickedness from wafodu bad. NB wafodu tan – bad place = hell for  English word se is ruslipen power, strength corami glory (presumably; it wasn’t in the dictionary) cana now ever-komi ever more (komi more) si is covar thing ajaw so – si covar ajaw so it is = literal translation of “amen” from Hebrew

There are a lot of other interesting things to say about this short book. As well as celebrating their lives and going into some detail about the author’s most recent ancestors in the 18th and 19th centuries, it also covers some of the difficulties faced by Romany people through their history and in more recent times as their traditional lines of work fell away. In summary, it’s a recommended read. A couple of sample pages are set out below so you can get a feel for it - a lot of the word definitions and etymologies are fascinating.

Previous instalments in this series:

#1: Scots Gaelic #2: Welsh #3: Manx #4: Irish #5: Cornish #6: German #7: French

[dragynkeep]

me + luke : listening to red like roses luke : ah yes, gypsy music me : STOP

[ukdamo]

The Gypsy Camp at Auschwitz

Raine Geoghegan

the branches on the trees bend and sway

leaves fall and settle on the ground

sunlight seeps through mottled clouds

and all is quiet

a woman with long red hair

picks a blade of grass

holds it up to the light

remembering her husband

the shape of his mouth

how he spoke her name, Narilla

men kek bissa: we will not forget

an old chal with silver hair

takes his hat off, feels the warmth of the sun

on his head

his chavo was four years old when they were imprisoned

a year later he was taken and was never seen again

he had dark curls and hazel eyes

a chavali runs into the arms of her mother

who remembers she once had twelve chavies

all had hair the colour of the darkest earth

and eyes like wolves

men kek bissa: we will not forget

winter birds mourning on the branches

the earth remembering

how it has given refuge to the dead

no longer dead leaves trampled underfoot

they have become wild breathing flowers

growing in the dust.

(Romani jib: Men kek bissa – we will not forget; Chal – man; Chavo – boy; Chavali – girl; Chavies – children)

[romanijuva]

This is my Romanichal(English Romani Gypsy) 4th generation grandfather Matthias Cooper. He was resourceful intelligent progressive thinking and a remarkable man who knew that the Romani culture and way of life, as well as the jib (language), was dying out. In order to preserve our Romani (short for Romanichal sometimes written as Roma/Romany/es) language culture customs and way of life, he worked with an American author writing a book called English Gipsies and Their Language by Charles Godfrey Leland. Together they went through as one of the tasks a Hindustani dictionary to see if Matty could recognise any. He spoke of Romani Gypsy customs songs stories and tales of previous experiences occupations he'd worked. Among those words, he recognised a vast array of Hindi words. Interestingly I had a DNA test a couple of years ago and a percentage of my DNA is Indian as well as English, Spanish Southern Irish and other countries which interestingly, fits with many of my cousins DNA! Lastly, I've gone back nine generations almost near the reign of King Henry the 8th and Queen Mary's when in England and Wales if you and anyone else found to be a Gypsy or were associated with Gypsies they were put to death by hanging. So think about it in today's terms any gorjas (non-Gypsy) who are married to or friends with a Romani Gypsy would be put to death along with the children/grandchildren you made. So despite my family being my English born. My direct ancestors of Matthias obviously got good at hiding and wasn't brutally persecuted for being Romani. Or we wouldn't exist, maybe we went to Scotland? It was a hideous early version of Hitler's forced sterilisation, experiments then genocide of the Romani and the Jewish people 👫 although I have found that some of my family were forced to be transported and some were forced into slavery. https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zycd39q/revision/2 https://www.instagram.com/p/B4DgZi6hXib/?igshid=lews3y6yad6a

[yachtlily]

Launch day

Saturday, 21st March 2020

Wind E  20mph                       A sunny but chilly day                                 Temp 6C

Lily was craned into the water at 10:15. We quickly set about fitting her bowsprit and raising the mast. This was relatively easy as she seems to be fairly well counterbalanced. The rigging, of course, was a complete jumble. Despite being carefully arranged in the barn, the tying up of the rig and the mast raising had muddled everything up. We eventually got it all sorted and took a break for some lunch.

After lunch we set about sorting out the self-tacking jib with advice, useful and otherwise, from sailors ashore. We are not used to a self-tacker and this is quite a sophisticated one but we eventually got it sorted out. It was far too windy in the dyke to attempt to set the jib so I suggested that we motor into the lee of Womack Island to try and set it there. Arriving in the lee of the island we found two water gypsies in residence but we did manage to squeeze into a mooring.  We set the jib up but, instead of furling it, left it up as we passaged back. Bad mistake. As we approached the river the clew parted company with the sail and we had the jib flogging violently in the wind. With some difficulty we eventually managed to get the sail down and lashed on the foredeck.

It was then that I noticed that the cabin was full of black smoke. Was our engine on fire? Fortunately we were not far from Thurne Dyke and we managed to creep back and ‘phone our boatbuilder, Nick. By the time he arrived the smoke was clearing and we could see the cause of the problem. There was a kink in one of the inlet hoses and this had put pressure on the rest of the system causing a pipe feeding into the engine to rupture. The cooling river water instead of being pumped around the engine was pumping all around the boat! The water was up to the floorboards and we thanked God that (a) we had an automatic bilge pump, and (b) that we had treated all of those hidden timbers. Nick replaced the two pipes and we started the engine, only to find that the exhaust baffle had blown! It was split right down the middle and leaking exhaust smoke. Clearly, parts would need to be ordered.

Leaving the forepeak hatch off we motored the short distance around to Nick’s mooring. He advised that the whole bay had been dredged over the winter and, as most of the spoil had been left on his mooring, he suggested we moor on an adjacent quay heading. We motored in and promptly went aground! We reversed off and motored her into Nick’s muddy mooring. By now it was getting late and we were very cold. We put her cover on as best we could and left her four the night. The plan was to return on the Monday, put her sails on and, as soon as the new exhaust part had been fitted, motor her up to her mooring on Horsey. We had previously been up to Horsey to set the mooring up ready for her.

[gaufry]

Sea fever

  "I want to live at sea much longer than ten days. Oh I’ll take along books and study. Think of reading Virgil up in the crosstrees, or straddling the main book or lying in the fold of a furled spanker in some quiet harbor.

 Let me tell you just what it’ll be like, that first day at sea. We’ll be towed out, and the tug captain and the master of our sailing ship will call across to each other, in their hoarse voices. We’ll be standing on the poop and you’ll get your first thrill when the little donkey engines start up. But wait until you hear the sounds of the rippling sails in the masts! You’ll hear the skipper call out, 'Mains’l out first, then fores’l, forestays’l, and jibs; spanker and tops’ls. Lively, boys!' We’ll be safely outside and prancing down the harbor under sail, and then we’ll cast the towrope, and the little tug will wheel about and chug back to the city.  But we’ll be free! The great white sails will lift and lift and fill and fill, and we’ll be off. Off… ****** That night, our first at sea, we lay awake in our bunks a long time, listening to the ocean outside our portholes. Fragments of talk floated around the little cabin, up from one bunk and down from another. Hear that voice outside? That’s the voice that’s been haunting me for a year.  Feel that wind? No breeze on land so fresh as that. Look through the porthole! See the domed and callous ocean rising, falling -- stars riding the waves….  I’m at sea again. Am I? It smells like it; it looks like it; it sounds like it. To-morrow we’ll be at sea -- the next day -- the next -- and we’ll sleep to-night with the sound of the ocean in our ears, of wind in the sails -- no, you know what I mean -- the sound of engines -- throbbing sound, not like sails, though.  But it doesn’t matter- not much…. Good night!" ~ Barbara Newhall Follett, "Magic Portholes" 

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,

And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by;

And the wheel’s kick and the wind’s song and the white sail’s shaking,

And a grey mist on the sea’s face, and a grey dawn breaking.

I must go down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide

Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;

And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,

And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.

I must go down to the seas again, to the vagrant gypsy life,

To the gull’s way and the whale’s way where the wind’s like a whetted knife;

And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover,

And quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick’s over.

~ John Masefield

[dragynkeep]

Hello! You commented on someone's post saying you were Irish Travellers and open to questions. I have some if you don't mind!

1. How do you feel on media portrayls of Irish Traveller culture? Are you a closed-culture like the Romani are and don't like being portrayed in non-traveller media?

2. If you don't mind being portrayed in non-traveller media, what are some common traps non-traveller writers seem to fall into when writing Irish Traveller characters?

You don't have to answer this. If you do though, thankyou very much for your time! (Also, got any resources for extra learning? Please and thankyou!)

hi, we absolutely don't mind!

1. i, personally, don't like a lot of the representation we get from media, especially those centred in reality tv. not only with the usage of slurs in titles, but the way they portray our genuinely thriving & vast culture & boil it down to "slutty traveller girls", violent men, boxing & cheating / thieving is so incredibly problematic & harmful. traveller girls are already at a high risk of being abused or raped, especially by the settled population & our men are incarcerated disproportionately compared to settled people.

i've yet to find a good tv show that represents us; as even peaky blinders which is supposed to be based around gypsies doesn't make the distinction between irish travellers or romanichal [english romani] & uses very butchered romanian as a stand in for romanes jib. i still don't know whether the shelbys are supposed to be travellers or romanichal & i don't think the show does either.

we are a closed culture but a lot of travellers are making a great effort for better representation in media & challenging the already harmful media out there with their voices. we want our culture to be portrayed because there is so much love & life & wonder in it, it's ours! we just want it to be portrayed well.

2. pretty much what i pointed out up above. using a completely different language as a stand in for a sister ethnic group, while ignoring the fact that irish travellers have our own jib, cant, is just incredibly frustrating. our language is a safety measure, we've actually been noted to talk so much faster than settled people so that this language just ends up sounding like gibberish to those not in the community. portraying only the stereotypes while furthering the sexualization & hyper aggression that gets traveller women & men killed, making everything about supposed "thievery" or "getting gypped" when there's no increase in this compared to the settled population, etc. all of these could be so easily avoided with a consult from the community & there are so many that would be willing, though we would much more prefer to be able to tell our own stories. no one knows them better than us after all.

here are some resources to learn more about irish travellers. ♥

https://www.paveepoint.ie/project/a-short-history-of-irish-travellers-video-4min-50/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBiOLwXkr40

https://travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture/

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/ireland/articles/a-brief-history-of-irish-travellers-irelands-only-indigenous-minority/

https://itmtrav.ie/what-is-itm/irish-travellers/

http://www.travellerheritage.ie/information-resources/useful-websites/