#greatqueenanna/responses

[greatqueenanna]

I occasionally come across posts that claim that Frozen 2 is racist. One example being is Iduna herself, how she was retconned to be indigenous despite her white presenting self. Another is a video I saw on TikTok saying how they had her marry Aganrr aka her colonizer (even though I sincerely doubt Agnarr would follow what Runeard tried to do her people). And another time I saw a Youtube comment saying how the Northuldra are not Saami but Native Americans cosplaying as Saami.

I've said this before, but I'll reiterate my main viewpoints when it comes to this topic because the response was back in 2022, so might as well refresh it.

My viewpoint on this topic is this -

If you are not Sámi, then I don't think it is appropriate to speak on how well the representation was done. We should let the Sámi voice their own opinions, and not try to interject our own biases or talk over them. This goes for both negative and positive comments.

I understand where people are coming from here. All they want is to make sure that a group of people are being represented well and respected. They want to be sure that Disney is not just trying to cash in on a half-assed job at representation at the expense of a group that was often marginalized, discriminated against, and colonized.

However, I do think that when we try to defend on behalf of others, we often create problems that were not considered one in the first place, due to our own biases. What do I mean?

I often bring @hb-pickle's post (linked below), where she emailed Professor Veli-Pekka Lehtola, one of the people on the Sámi Advisory group that helped work on F2. He gave incredible insight on the development of F2, and was very happy with the work they did and the treatment they received.

He mentions within his response three main concerns they had during development.

That Yelena was a villain at first.

That the Northuldran attire was at first even more vague than it is now, and looked more like a non-specific arctic attire.

That the Reindeers were running in a circle at the end, as this was not realistic.

You can read the original response to see more details on these and how the team navigated them.

Out of these three issues - not one of them is about Iduna saving and marrying her 'colonizer', or about Iduna presenting white. These issues are things that are brought up mostly by western audiences. Thus, western audiences are creating a problem , and thus speaking over the group they are trying to protect.

In fact, even the film team did this to some extent. With the second issue that I mentioned above, the film team explained to the advisors that the reason they did not want to specifically represent Sami clothing and colors with the Northuldra, is because they did not want to 'culturally appropriate' them.

Thus, the team was making a decision on what the Sami should consider offensive, much like how western audiences are doing the same with Iduna's character.

I would advise seeking out Sami opinions. I have linked some articles below that you can check out.

“Reindeer are better than people:” Indigenous Representation in Disney’s Frozen

Disney's 'Frozen 2' thrills Sámi people in northern Europe

The last link is from a tumblr blog that is now closed. However, you can get a little bit of info from this user before the read more, unless someone has their full article somewhere.

[greatqueenanna]

It’s definitely an interesting read, and gives a lot of insight into how Lee approaches the sisters. It’s funny how so many people would always say how ‘unrealistic’ Elsa and Anna’s relationship is, and yet Lee modeled the relationship off of her own sisterhood (along with other creators on the project, after all, they did have an entire meeting about sisters).

It’s good that Lee is not one to be influenced by outside sources to be honest. I know it makes looking for canon in side content a bit frustrating, but I know where Lee is coming from here. I’ve seen many writers and artists just give into the whims of whatever fans, executives, or whoever else want and it really makes stories seem forced and unnatural.

If Elsa does indeed embrace romance, Lee will try her best to make sure it’s done naturally and makes sense with Elsa’s character and her development. After all, Elsa was very much against romance for a very long time, and was isolated for 13 years— it doesn’t really make sense that she would suddenly open up immediately to whom ever. It will take her time. That’s ok.

This aspect of Elsa’s character, romance, will happen a lot slower and probably happen more quietly than how Anna and Kristoff got together - knowing exactly how they wanted to move forward with their relationship once they knew that they both had romantic feelings. However, I have no doubt that once Elsa does feel comfortable with this side of herself, she’ll be more confident in a romantic relationship. I believe that this is more likely how Lee and the rest of the team is approaching Elsa and romance.

Now, does that mean that no executive influence is present on this topic? Of course not. I don’t doubt at all that there is probably a push to keep Elsa single so that both those who want Elsa with a guy and those who want her with a girl won’t be upset— especially since Disney is struggling with audiences right now from all sides of the political atmosphere.

Thus, it’s probably a mix of writing and executive influence. Elsa is, realistically, not ready to dive into romance just yet, and the Disney execs are still trying to figure out how to approach Elsa’s romantic life.

Interesting words from Jennifer Lee:

Social media, of course, is already on the case; an avalanche of opinion that Elsa should be gay is gaining force. “That’s dangerous storytelling,” Lee says. “I hear it occasionally in the studio: ‘I don’t want a character who …’

“But it’s not what you want, it’s ‘Who is this character? What does she need?’ It’s hard because you never know what the landscape is like on social media. You can only know what it’s like in that story room.”

In the text she also talks about Elsa's inspiration, which is her own sister, Amy.

“We were kids who grew up with a mom who worked a lot, our parents were divorced. Amy was the responsible one, she had all the burdens. She was magical to me. Everything she did I thought was the greatest thing, though I was not quite so magical to her.”

Lee grins. She’s like a good Disney movie herself. She can switch seamlessly between emotions. “I was the wild child. I had all the creativity, like Anna.”

And some about Elsa's personality:

“Elsa trying to tell jokes is one of the funniest ideas.” Not a natural comedian then? “She tries, the poor thing. I think of her having to face the crowds at Arendelle, an introvert’s nightmare. Things like that are in my head all the time.”

There are other interesting phrases in the interview, but I found these to be the most interesting. I think it's worth a more complete analysis of this interview, @greatqueenanna.

[the-blue-fairie]

Hot take but Elsa the Disney character isn't a sociopath.

I made a post recently venting about (what I felt to be) a deeply odd comment someone made to me in the past, and that got making me thinking about an accumulation of posts over the years that have made me uncomfortable:

This post calls Elsa “a bit of a sociopath.” Its use of the term “sociopath” is both frivolous and ableist.

A while ago, @greatqueenanna and I were discussing this mentality (because it had emerged in more people than the individual I am currently citing) regarding Elsa and she reached out to a friend who, for the sake of his privacy, I shall call BG. He’s diagnosed ASPD (Sociopathy) and works as Clinical Psychologist, specifically with patients who have severe divergences (ASPD, Narcissistic Personality, Histrionic, Bipolar, Schizophrenia, etc.)

I will now share portions of his email response:

"I want to point something out that is very important to the idea of Elsa being a sociopath. Elsa’s entire persona revolves around her guilt. Elsa feels responsible for the accident that happened to Anna. She is burdened with guilt for her parents’ efforts to accommodate her powers, and then their deaths. The eternal winter and the spirit invasion left her with a heavy load of guilt. Elsa feels guilty that she wants to follow the voice and discover more about her powers.

Guilt, guilt, guilt. If you’re tired of the word guilt by this point, then I’ve made my point. Elsa is not a sociopath, foremost, because she feels guilt. This is important because empathy is the key between sociopaths and empaths, and that’s why I wanted to focus on this first. Sociopaths don’t feel guilt.

Next, Elsa’s key problem is her lack of self-worth; the complete disassociation from her own needs and desires. This is not an issue with sociopaths. With this in mind, Elsa shows a bit of recklessness in Frozen 2, but it’s not from a place of boredom or a need for power. It is from a place of trying to defend those she cares about. There was a fire, she tried to stop it from hurting others. She needed to find answers about the forest to save everyone, so she jumped into the hole. Elsa gets no real benefit from these actions; meaning it doesn’t qualify as the same recklessness a sociopath would do. Her lack of self-worth makes her able to just throw herself in danger and push others away from it. Her recklessness comes from a place of martyrdom.

So, we’ve ruled out three key features of ASPD – no empathy or guilt, a grandiose sense of self, and recklessness out of boredom or desire for power. Now let’s talk manipulation; especially since it seems like no one understands what that means. From good ole’ WedMD, we see that Manipulation in the clinical sense is the - ‘exercise of harmful influence over others. People who manipulate others attack their mental and emotional sides to get what they want. The person doing the manipulating, called the manipulator, seeks to create an imbalance of power.’

Does Elsa ever try to make someone feel inferior, try to induce self-hatred, reinforce self-damaging behaviors, or get them to mistrust others? No, Elsa does none of this. She does it to herself."

Outside of F2, the claim that "Elsa doesn't care about anyone other than Elsa" is nonsense. In F1, Elsa isolates herself because she wants to protect others. She wants to protect her family, the sister whom she loves. She wants to protect the people around her. Many of Elsa’s worst traits actually emerge from caring for others at the expense of caring for herself - and those traits are only present because of her trauma and because of the way she was raised. In Frozen Fever, Elsa devotes herself to Anna because she loves her and wants to give her a perfect birthday, even though Elsa herself is sick. She puts Anna first. In OFA, she reaches out to apologize to Anna after closing the door again, she is shown to be a loving sister, a loving queen, protective of Olaf, etc.

The statement that “nobody [was] ever thinking of her (except for Kristoff in the last 3 years of her life)” is misguided because it disregards not only Elsa but Olaf. I’m all for loving Anna’s and Kristoff’s connection (I’m a Kristanna shipper myself, after all) but to say she had no one else is untrue.

This person also made statements like this:

And this:

Even hotter take from me, but Elsa the Disney character is not reflective of real-life cases of domestic abuse and incestuous violence. I realize you dislike her, but she's just not. She is a character in an animated film for children.

This mentality wasn't just her either. There was another blog that described itself thusly...

...which openly admitted that:

If your Anna fanblog never was much of an Anna fanblog but instead an Elsa hateblog, that says something about you and how negatively you approach the media you consume.

You cared more about hating Elsa than loving Anna - so much so that you put your original intent of loving Anna to the wayside. There’s something sad about that.

If you had a whole blog dedicated to screaming that you wished a fictional cartoon character had died, that isn’t healthy.

And it wasn't just those two blogs:

I saw various posts like these over the years, but held my tongue because I didn't want to be branded an "Elsa stan" or get yelled at. I did get yelled at by verannaca in 2023, however, because she rudely came onto one of my posts about Elsa to say that "Elsa was the villain." I replied with the definition of villain from the Oxford English Dictionary and told her to chill, then she got angry at me for writing an "unnecessary essay" when like... SHE came onto MY post. If she hated Elsa so much, why did she seek out MY Elsa-centric post?

It was just... an ugly miasma of negativity and I hope that, when Frozen 3 and 4 come out, blatant misreadings of the text don't become popular again. I understand Anna fans' frustrations with Elsa's popularity and I myself have expressed issues with the writing of especially Frozen 2, but...

I really don't think I'm an "Elsa stan" for saying statements like "Elsa isn't a sociopath" and "Elsa isn't reflective of incestuous violence."

Still, I love Elsa just as much as I love Anna, just as much as I love Kristoff, just as much as I love Kristanna and Frohana and the Northuldra and everything else. We're united by love, first and foremost.

[hb-pickle]

Frozen 2: Myths & Rumors

Before I start, here is an awesome post made by @greatqueenanna about the more popular Frozen 2 rumors. It debunks popular myths such as early drafts of F2 including Elsa dying for real in Ahtohallan and Anna getting magic powers. This post is meant for more small scale rumors that GreatQueenAnna did not address ♥ 

I’m not an expert, so if anyone has any hard proof (screenshots, links, tweets from directors, etc) that any of this isn’t true, please show me!!! Most of these rumors are pure hearsay, with no actual evidence (from what I’ve seen), so I’ll just be using canon sources to disprove them. 

-

+ Honeymaren and Ryder are 16/17 years old + FALSE

This rumor apparently comes someone who saw the June 2019 F2 character bios, which stated that Honeymaren is 16 and Ryder is 17. I’ve never seen any evidence of these early character bios, but the current ones that exist (from storybooks, and the fan wiki) do not confirm or list either Northuldra’s age. Their ages are also not confirmed in film.

Honeymaren’s Bio & Ryder’s Bio

Also, if we use our context clues, we can assess that Honeymaren and Ryder are both adults, at the very least. The 1st time we see the Northuldra siblings, they ambush the Frohana gang. Not only that, but they are front and center, Honeymaren dropping down right at the front of the attack team, with Ryder standing a little behind her. Honeymaren is also the first to speak, commanding Anna to “lower her weapon”. Surely the Northuldra wouldn’t send actual children to go ambush and attack the mysterious strangers. And the fact that Honeymaren is 1st to speak, shows that she must hold some sort of important position of power/authority in her group, which wouldn’t be given to a young, inexperienced girl. ((Also if you look at the crowd of Northuldra that attack the main heroes, they are all adults))

-

+ Honeymaren and Ryder are Elsa and Anna’s cousins + FALSE

This rumor comes from the same mysterious June documents from above. The only other ‘evidence’ that supports this rumor is that all four characters come from the same tribe, which only means they’re of the same ethnicity, not blood related. Canonically, Honeymaren and Ryder’s only established familial relationships are to each other, as brother and sister. 

Context Clues - When Honeymaren and Ryder identify Iduna’s shawl as Northuldra, they say “This is from one of our oldest families”. People don’t refer to their own family in the 3rd person like that, and if this was their family shawl they would’ve said “my family”(1st person). Also, if this was Honeymaren and Ryder’s family shawl, they would’ve immediately recognized it as their own and would’ve said so. Not to mention, seeing outsiders with their family shawl would’ve probably provoked them to mention the tragic disappearance of their mother/father’s baby sister (young Iduna).

-

+ At the end of Frozen 2 Elsa goes to lives in Ahtohallan + FALSE

This rumor apparently comes from a tweet from either Jennifer Lee or Chris Buck. If anyone has these tweets, please show me, but otherwise it’s just a funny rumor. Canonically Elsa's current home is the Enchanted Forest, confirmed by the fan wiki and by the movie’s ending.

Elsa’s Character Bio showing that her current home is the Enchanted Forest.

Enchanted Forest Bio showing that Elsa is a current inhabitant.

Context Clues - Honestly this rumor just doesn’t make sense. Like... why would Elsa live in Ahtohallan when there is nothing in there but ice and murder magic? At the end of the film, Elsa’s new goal in life isn’t explicitly stated, but it’s almost universally agreed upon to be protecting the forest/watching over the spirits (Anna even tells Elsa to “keep looking after the forest” in her paper airplane note). All four spirits live in the Enchanted Forest, so logically she’d chose to live amongst them. At the end of the film, Elsa is also shown happily standing in the Enchanted Forest, right next to the Northuldra’s village (you can see them in the background with their reindeer, houses, campfires, etc). After this establishing shot, she summons Nokk, rides around the Enchanted forest, interacting happily with more Northuldra, and then heads to Ahtohallan across the sea. She explicitly did not refer to Ahtohallan as her home, choosing to say “We’re going for a ride,” not that she was “going home”.

 Also in many post-Frozen 2 children's books and comics, Elsa and Anna both state that Elsa lives in the forest and depict Elsa living in and enjoying the forest.

((There is also no canon evidence that Elsa visited Ahtohallan again after the events of Frozen 2.))

-

+ In the deleted song ‘See The Sky’ the Northuldra want Elsa to die for them + FALSE

I assume this comes from a simple translation error. You can see the full lyrics for ‘See The Sky’ HERE. In this song, the Northuldra and the Arendelle soldiers both blame each other for the mist and the fighting. But, they also recognize Elsa as their only hope of escaping and believe she is a gift from nature. The song is supposed to make Elsa (and Anna) feel uneasy because of the immense amount of pressure it puts on them, but the Northuldra nor the Arendellians expect Elsa to die for them or anything. At the end of the song Elsa even says “I want to give this to you!” so she is explicitly accepting the responsibility both sides are asking of her.

This deleted song was showcased in the Disney+ Frozen 2 documentary, and no other context was given for before or after the song would’ve taken place, so we don’t know if Elsa/the forest folk knew of the potential danger ahead.

-

+ The scene where Honeymaren and Elsa hold hands was removed in some countries + TRUE

Honeymaren and Elsa touching was just too spicy for some countries I guess lmao. PROOF (very bottom of the page in the trivia section)

(I wanted to end on a nice note)

[greatqueenanna]

Hey, so do have a history of Hans' development in Frozen? I keep seeing so many posts about how Hans was actually meant to be a good guy and he was Elsa's romance in Frozen or Frozen 2 and what-not and I'm just trying to look at actual sources and facts regarding his character, since I want to write my own analysis, but I think that Hans fans are too biased to provide actual good info.

My What Came Before Analysis details the information I was able to find about Frozen's early development throughout the years.

In terms of Hans specifically, I do have this twitter (X) thread about misinformation within the Hans fandom pushed by a few extremists that you can go ahead and take a look at.

However, since you asked, here are some tid-bits regarding Hans' character throughout the years leading up to the first film.

-----

Hans was most likely conceptualized around the time Anna and the Snow Queen became Frozen and switched form 2D hand-drawn animation, to 3D animation. Before Anna and Elsa were written as sisters, Hans was written to be the true villain of the story, as a way to help redeem the Snow Queen character. This was around 2010-2011.

Frozen was to open with a prophecy that “a ruler with a frozen heart will bring destruction to the kingdom of Arendelle.” We’re then introduced to Anna, our pure-hearted heroine, and Elsa, an unrelated evil Snow Queen. We learn Elsa is a scorned woman; she was stood up at the altar on her wedding day and froze her own heart so she would never love again. Both Elsa and the audience assume she’s the villain from the prophecy. Fast-forward to the final act: Elsa creates an army of snow monsters to attack our heroes while Kristoff has “a Han Solo moment” and comes to help Anna. To halt Elsa’s attacking army, the two-faced Prince Hans (Admiral Westergaard) triggers a massive avalanche—not caring that the avalanche also puts Anna, Elsa, and all of Arendelle in jeopardy. Anna realizes Elsa is their only hope, so she convinces her to use her powers to save the kingdom. The twist is that the prophecy from the beginning is actually not about Elsa, but about Hans—he’s the one with a metaphorical frozen heart because he’s an unfeeling sociopath. Elsa’s heart is then unfrozen allowing her to love again. - Peter Del Vecho, Entertainment Weekly

After Elsa and Anna were re-written as sisters, the story changed so that Hans and Anna were about to get married, until Elsa kidnaps her from the wedding. The ending was the same as far as I know, with Admiral Westergaard triggering the avalanche to stop Elsa's snowman army, leading to the destruction of Arendelle as well. You can see a tid-bit of this Elsa in the video below -

Eventually, after Let it Go was written, Hans was apparently written as trying to get a job in Arendelle, and Anna was trying to get Elsa to agree but she wouldn't. Then it was changed to the quick engagement plot instead. For the life of me, I can't find the source for this so you can take it with a grain of salt.

Then, Hans was changed to a Prince, and rather than being a reckless, uncaring (and a little dumb) villain that was willing to destroy Arendelle and its people to stop Elsa, Hans was changed to a more cunning villain who was trying to win the throne by emotional manipulation rather than by force.

This is what Jennifer Lee meant when she said the following -

So no, Hans was never a good guy or Elsa's romance interest. And that's everything I know about Hans' development based on sources.

[greatqueenanna]

It is mentioned in both the song Cool With Me and in Exploring the Songs of "Frozen" with Kristen Anderson-Lopez saying that Elsa kidnapped Anna. Now, It does seem like that she sends snowmen to go get her (maybe one of them was Olaf?), rather than doing it herself. Now about how Kristoff and Anna went up the mountain together -- honestly, I was thinking about that myself.

I'm thinking that either Kristoff goes up the mountain and saves Anna and they travel back down together and that's where they have more interaction (maybe Admiral Westergaard pays him? It makes sense since he sends guards to go get her later in the 'Evil Elsa' deleted clip. Maybe Kristoff was taking too long. No idea honestly). It sort of makes sense with why Elsa would go after them in the old clips,they were probably running away from her haha -

Kristoff: "Now we just have to survive this blizzard!"

Anna: "That's no Blizzard, that's my sister!"

Or, maybe a lot of those concept arts are from post-Let it Go Frozen where Elsa doesn't kidnap Anna anymore, and instead Anna goes up to find her (in that one deleted scene Meet Kristoff, it is closer to what we got in the final film of Anna paying Kristoff to help her find Elsa).

@greatqueenanna I have a question about "What came before". What does make us think that dark!Elsa kidnapped Anna? Cool With Me and the drawing where Anna is captured by the evil snowmen? But it seems to me that the idea of kidnapping may contradict the early concept arts where we see Anna and Kristoff traveling together to the North. May it be that that version of Anna also wanted to save the kingdom from the snow vengeance of dark!Elsa but was captured by the snowmen along the way and brought to Elsa's throne? What do you think?

(The same is with the Snow Queen version where Anna wakes up the Snow Queen and then becomes involved with her: how it correlates with those pretty folkish-style arts where Anna and Kristoff visit the marvelous shop and ride the sleigh? How could she get to know Kristoff at all if she was engaged with Hans and then asked to freeze her heart? We probably will never know.) Also it's hilarious how they played with that idea of rejection from a fiance and unhappy love, giving it to the both Anna and proto-Elsa. Before your post I thought that the paper in Anna's hands was a list of things for her wedding preparations, of a wedding that never happened because of proto-Hans.

[greatqueenanna]

I've just seen frozen forces of nature arts and queen Disa is so pretty! She looks like a young Halle Berry. I'm in love. ❤

Anon is referring to these official images of Queen Disa.

(I think that's all of them so far).

I think Queen Disa's design is very cute and well made, and it helps make her unique amongst the sisters. It is a little on the nose though. Like, of course her skirt has gear-looking designs haha. Now I'm waiting for some official images of Wolfgang.

[greatqueenanna]

There's a video that I saw on YouTube with he title "Frozen 2's Soundtrack is worse than you Think' and I'll did was let out a complete disappointment breath. I didn't watch the video cause I feel like its classic ragebait but that doesn't stop me from feeling upset. It makes me doubt myself of my love from the second movie like is just a disgruntled fan just getting views or is Frozen 2 universally bad and I just have horrible taste?

May I ask though if you had seen it and what are your thoughts?

I wouldn’t take anyone’s opinion personally. As I said before, Frozen is popular and people love to use it for clicks and views. All they have to say is “This aspect of the film/character is trash/bad/worse than you think!” and they can get a free 100k+ views.

A lot of people think F1 and F2 are bad. Doesn’t change that this film series is highly regarded, including the sequel.

If you find that the video will just make you angry, then don’t engage with it. I recommend giving attention to videos that analyze the music in a positive way. For example—

*EDIT* it’s been brought to my attention that the video mentioned by anon is actually more or less being critical of the restrictions placed on the composers for the background music (or film score).

I still feel the title is obviously meant to be clickbait oriented, and is a regular criticism for Youtube videos who are trying to create engagement.

[greatqueenanna]

What do you think of the theory that Honeymaren was made especially to please fans of #GiveElsaAGirlfriend and that initially there would be more moments made to shipp the two until Disney decided to reduce these moments? I'm not saying that they would actually be a couple, but that all of this was meticulously planned to please these fans who wanted her to have a girlfriend without confirming anything.

I always thought it was very naive to think that after years of Disney avoiding the question: “Will Elsa have a girlfriend in Frozen 2?” and they release the film which, despite not being romantic, still shows her talking near a campfire (a moment used in many romance films) with a girl of the same age while they caress a reindeer calf, sing a small duet and they talk about magic and traditions when it would have made much more sense for Elsa to have that conversation with Yelana, but the plot made the older woman stay away from there.

According to most sources I’ve seen (but I need to do more research regarding this, if I'm being honest) the reason Honey (and Ryder) were created was to simply have characters that helped the audience empathize with the Northuldra. They used to have a bit more story content in earlier drafts, which is a shame they got rid of chunks of their story because there wasn't enough screen-time for everything.

This is one of the reasons I feel Frozen 2 would've made an amazing series instead of a film, and why Frozen 3 being separated into two films is such a great idea, even if the initial intention was for more profit. Because let's face it, both the first and second films suffer from the 'too much stuff, not enough space' plot issues so having a show and double film will do wonders for the story going forward.

They also needed characters to help gear the story in the right direction. Honey tells Elsa about the Fifth Spirit, and Ryder helps get Kristoff out of the way so that Elsa and Anna could be alone during the boat scene.

The reason I think Yelena was probably not used, is because her original role was to be a villain along side Runeard, but they scrapped the idea after heavy criticism. Since they had already made Honey and Ryder, there was no point I suppose in giving Yelena a different role other than a leader type to mirror Mattias, especially since they had to shrink down the Northuldra's stories to begin with.

Now, in terms of Honey being created specifically to please fans who want Elsa to be with another woman, I can't say for certain.

I do know that there was a tweet that Jen Lee liked during a Frozen QandA on Twitter (X) where a user begged her to keep Elsa single so that people can imagine her to be with another woman if they wanted. I will see if I can find this tweet for you, but as Jen Lee deleted her Twitter, I’ve lost a lot of sources.

Unless her sentiments have changed, I think Jen Lee will try to keep Elsa single for as long as possible so that fans can decide for themselves what Elsa's sexuality is. Elsa means so much for fans of all sexual orientations, leaving her sexuality open lets fans have freedom with her character. Jen Lee was always about leaving things open for fans, so this concept is not a stretch.

Thus, the possibility that Honey was introduced so that Elsa can have a strong relationship with another woman that is not Anna, but is left open so that fans can interpret the relationship as romantic or platonic, could be a thing.

However, as said, there is no evidence for it other than speculation.

This is also the reason that I pretty confident that Elsa will never be paired off with a man either. They want to leave it open for fans to decide for themselves. Again, unless their thoughts have changed on the subject.

[greatqueenanna]

First off, thank you for using my fan art - it's a little old, but it's nice to see my art being used for something as neat as this analysis. Second, the title matches very well, as both Rita and Runeard are royals that are battling for Inger's freedom - another great pun that references the main idea of the analysis!

I completely expected an analysis of Rita and Runeard from you as soon as I read the book and saw that Rita and Runeard play such a big role. You've become a bit of the go-to person to talk about these two, even with the very little information we have about them - and you're right, Runeard has shown that he is quite taken with the idea of being King and having power - even using that power to his advantage no matter the consequence.

I did end up liking Rita a bit more, with both the novel and your analysis here - but I still have some distaste for her since she chose her own needs over her son - it's gonna take a lot for me to really appreciate this character, but this was a good start.

My overall thoughts of Polar Nights is that I actually quite liked the novel. The only issue that really stood out to me was how Runeard has become a sort of scapegoat for all the bad things that Arendelle may have done. I think it would've been ok to give Runeard and Arendelle itself a little bit more of a grey area, giving a bit more depth to the ideas of discrimination and fear. Although I'll go into more detail when I post my own review of it.

Royals’ Battle

Before I read the new post-Frozen II novel, Polar Nights, I was hoping that it would especially feature some new information about Runeard and Rita, and much to my delight, it did, and they played HUGE roles in the flow of the story, even as posthumous characters! 😁😁😁

In the book, Anna and Elsa learn from Kristoff the story of Princesses Sissel and her younger sister, Inger, who were from the neighboring kingdom of Vesterland. He says that the sisters hated each other and Inger wanted the crown for herself. About fifty years ago, the two sisters were visiting Arendelle regarding their kingdom being asked to contribute in funding the building of the dam in the Enchanted Forest. At one point, when Sissel and Inger were alone together near a rushing river, Inger pushed her sister into the river and Sissel eventually drowned when she went over a waterfall. A witness reported the murder to King Runeard, who banished Inger from Arendelle (and Vesterland) and put her on a prison ship, which went down in the sea, causing Inger to die by drowning, too. And despite her death, Sissel came back from the dead as a creature called a draugr, seeking revenge on those who wronged her.

Naturally, Anna and Elsa are shocked by the story, particularly by how their grandfather had done something good and just…

…but as the novel unfolds, the sisters discovers that the entire story surrounding Sissel’s death and Inger being accused of murder was a lie.

Halfway into the book, after the sisters have had several encounters with the draugr and deduced it is actually Sissel, Elsa conjures up the memory of what really happened on the day of Sissel’s death using traces of water that have remained in a locket that Sissel was wearing the day she died (brought to Elsa by the draugr itself). Elsa and Anna discover that, not only were Sissel and Inger very close and that Inger was more interested in science and the environment (and thus did not want to be queen nor aimed to steal the throne from her sister), but Inger had figured out that the dam would cut off the water flow and cause other environmental devastations to the forest. It would also affect Vesterland by depleting animals that the citizens hunt for food. She was arguing with Sissel over this matter by the river, and while Sissel understood what Inger was saying, she felt they would be powerless to stop Runeard since he would not listen to them and did not care that his desired project would negatively affect the Northuldra and Vesterland. Sissel was also terrified of Runeard so much that she feared standing up to him, as she believed arguing with him over the matter would only lead to him punishing Vesterland by cutting off their trading partnership with Arendelle, since Arendelle controls the port that allows food, medicine, and other goods to come in from other kingdoms and travel to Vesterland. But due to Inger’s persistence about how harmful the dam would also be to their kingdom, Sissel finally relented and decided to request another audience in Arendelle to tell Runeard that Vesterland would not help to fund the dam.

However, no sooner than the sisters were feeling better about the matter that a flash flood occurred. Inger got in the way of the rushing water as it headed down the river, and when SIssel pushed her out of the way to escape harm, she tripped on a tree root and fell into the rushing water. As she was pulled downstream, Sissel struggled against the strong current and tried to grab something to help her get back to shore. She yelled for her sister to help her, and Inger chased after Sissel on the river bank. When Sissel managed to grab on to a branch near the shore, the witness from Kristoff’s story, a shepherd boy named Stig Petter, raced to help Sissel. Sadly, with the branch breaking as she held on, Sissel accepted her fate to die. Before she let go and went over the falls, she told Inger that she loved her and was proud of her. As a distraught Inger mourned the loss of her sister, Stig vowed to help Inger.

Following the end of the memory, Anna and Elsa realize that the draugr of Sissel was never trying to harm them or anyone else, but rather has been trying to clear her sister’s name and has removed some memories of the Arendellians so that they don’t remember the false story regarding her death. Elsa and Anna search through Arendelle’s court records to find more information, discovering that Stig lied and said that Inger had murdered Sissel by pushing her into the river, and the court believed Stig instead of Inger. Upon finding and meeting the elderly Stig to get the entire truth, Anna and Elsa further learn that Stig was actually blackmailed by Runeard to lie and say that Inger murdered her sister. The former king of Arendelle told Stig that he had to lie or he (Runeard) would tell everyone that Stig helped Inger murder Sissel and he’d have him imprisoned, too (or possibly executed). This was because Runeard (presumably) learned that the sisters were planning to voice their opposition of the dam and would not let their kingdom help fund its construction. In doing so, they would have also told other kingdoms that the dam would actually harm, not help, the forest and convince these kingdoms not to help with building it, either.

Without enough funds needed to construct the dam, the project would never get off the ground, and Runeard could have been exposed as a liar and traitor. Even with Sissel dead, Inger would have never stopped fighting to make sure Runeard could not build the dam. But being the stubborn, xenophobic tyrant who was ruthlessly obsessed with protecting his power and set on destroying the threat he believed the Northuldra posed to him, Runeard refused to let his plan be ruined at any cost, even if that meant lying and causing harm innocent people who got in his way. So even with a witness present to the real account of Sissel’s death, the king took advantage of the situation by framing Inger for murder and put her on a ship to get rid of her for good, eliminating the sole opposition to his goal.

Yet while Inger couldn’t save her sister or stop Runeard from building the dam, she did manage to escape the terrible fate that almost befell her. Having gotten to know both sisters during their visit, and knowing what a cruel man her husband was, Queen Rita was the only one (besides Stig) who believed in Inger’s innocence. Though she tried to defend Inger in the court, Runeard adamantly refused to let her speak and banished her to her chambers. Not wanting an innocent woman to be condemned for a crime she never committed, Rita secretly helped Inger escape the prison ship (and Arendelle) before it set sail (which was seen by Stig). She paid several men to take Inger off the ship and gave her safe passage to another. Inger was also warned by Rita to never return to Arendelle since she would surely be recaptured and put to death if she did.

All that being said, what this book revealed about Runeard and Rita’s relationship further reinforces what I have believed about them from Dangerous Secrets, but most especially the former in what kind of man he really was: a cold-hearted, selfish, bigoted, power-hungry scoundrel who never cared about anyone or anything other than his kingship and the power and authority that came with it. Runeard’s position as king made him believe that he could do whatever he wanted, that he was always in the right to do so, that he was never wrong, and he didn’t care how his actions could affect others unless they could still benefit himself. But most of all, as I’ve said before many times, Runeard arrogantly believed being a king meant that he was better and smarter than everyone else since he was in the highest place in society. He discriminated all other people as being beneath him, especially peasants (like the Northuldra and shepherds like Stig), and refused to treat them fairly or equally.

Such views are backed up perfectly by the fact that he laughed in scorn when Stig said he would tell others about Runeard’s threats. Runeard also said that no one would ever believe him because he is a poor shepherd, meaning that (to him, at least) no one would ever believe the word of a lowly shepherd over the mighty king of Arendelle.

But most importantly of all, Runeard’s behavior towards Rita completely support what I have said in “There Goes the Bride”. Being the king, it’s crystal clear that Runeard felt that HE had more power and authority than everyone, even more than Rita, the queen and his own wife. Therefore, only HE had first and final say in EVERY decision made, and that the opinions of others, including his wife and the people he ruled, were never important. The fact that Rita tried to voice her belief that Inger was innocent, but Runeard harshly silenced her and sent her out of the royal court (he probably even locked her in her chambers so she couldn’t interfere) reinforces what I believed in him trying to control her and having seen her as his inferior, not his equal partner.

Ultimately, Polar Nights helped prove that Runeard was so hellbent on creating the dam just to bring down the Northuldra that he sought to keep even Rita out of his way when she became a liability to his scheme. 😠😡

But since Inger managed to escape with Rita’s help, she managed to live a long life (though she never became the ruler of Vesterland) and had a family (including a granddaughter named after her deceased great-aunt). And in the end of the book, Inger returns to Arendelle and manages to reunite with the spirit of Sissel after the draugr sheds her form following the truth being revealed about her death. 🥲😭

Second image here is a fan art of Queen Rita, made by my dear friend @greatqueenanna. 

[greatqueenanna]

What do you think of those videos on YouTube that bad mouths Frozen/Frozen 2 (ex: Frozen is a Pathetic Mess. Frozen 2 is a Pathetic Sequel. Frozen 2 is a Mess etc?) and how do I a fan of both Frozen & the Sequel deal with it?

Everyone is allowed to have their opinions of art, and if someone doesn't like Frozen, F2 or both, that is fine. They can absolutely say and create whatever they want.

I do think however that if someone has a video with the word 'pathetic' or 'mess' in the title, they're obviously doing it for click bait; not because they actually want to have a genuine discussion about the films. It automatically makes me not want to see the video. That's just me though.

The best way to deal with criticism for something you like that means a lot to you, is to not take it personally.

I completely understand and know the pain of seeing a video or reading a take that makes you frustrated, and it sits with you for the rest of the day and ruins it. In this case, you basically just need to accept that people have different tastes, and just because they might've said something that is wrong or just frustrating, doesn't really take away what the franchise has done for you.

The films are still there for you to enjoy whenever you want, and there are plenty of fans to discuss the films in a way that makes you happy - and maybe even openly and comfortably discuss any flaws you might've had issues with the franchise without feeling like the thing you love is being attacked.

This leads into to the second thing you need to do - knowing your limits.

If you do not feel like you can emotionally handle something you love being criticized, and do not want to engage with that type of discussion, then take steps to avoid this as much as possible. Block users and tags, tell YouTube to stop recommending certain types of videos or creators. Make your space a place where you can enjoy what you love in a way that makes you happy, not frustrated.

Yes, as mentioned, people can discuss art in any way they like. However, you also have the freedom to disregard them.

Now, if you do get the itch and want to respond to the criticism, and feel like you can handle it in a way that is respectful, then I recommend not doing it right away.

Take a deep breath, walk away from the post/video, and gather your thoughts and emotions first. That way you don't say or do something you later regret, or engage yourself in a discussion you really didn't want to have in the first place, but now you're in a full on debate and you don't know how to get out of it.

I've made the mistake of creating rant posts while I was angry and saying/doing things that were not handled the best way. I'm human after all. Thus, always take a step back before you respond to criticism. In the end, when your anger has died down, you may not even be bothered by the critique anymore and don't' feel the need to say anything.

So that's my recommendation on how to deal with type of thing. I hope it helps a bit!

[greatqueenanna]

Why didn't Olaf's love save Anna? Isn't his willingness to melt for her an act of true love?

To be honest with you, while its not explicitly stated anywhere, I am under the fan belief that Anna needed to perform the act herself. Because not only does Olaf's act count, but Also Kristoff running back to Arendelle and leaving Anna with Hans.

Like what Olaf said haha.

I believe that Anna had to do the act herself and save her own heart. The film puts a lot of emphasis that Anna doesn't really know what love is, and also pushes the idea that 'Anna thawed her own heart'. This emphasis is probably there to push this point across, that Anna needed to understand love in order for her heart to thaw.

It's just one of those quirky things about Frozen's lore I suppose.

[greatqueenanna]

I've seen Frozen 2 antis make the claim that the Four Spirits are not a benevolent as the movie showcases, or say they're downright sinister. Reasons being is because they also punished The Northuldrans by locking them in the midst, or question why they didn't destroy the damn themselves. Same goes for Ahtolhallan, who I seen people question why would they freeze Elsa, the Fifth Spirit. I've also seen people blame Ahtolhallan for taking Elsa away from Arendelle claiming it hypnotized her or some bs *rolls eyes*. I've also seen others blame both for Agnarr & Iduna's deaths (the latter being a Northuldran).

What do you think about this?

There are a few critiques here, so I'll tackle one at a time.

The Spirits punished The Northuldrans by locking them in the mist.

This critique is a common one, and one that I actually think is valid. Whether it is coming from a genuine place of confusion or just trying to throw as much shade towards the Spirits as possible, this critique is actually a bit tricky to rationalize, because the film itself and the writers never really answered why the Northuldrans are also trapped in the mist.

We know that the initial reason as to why they were trapped as well was because in early drafts, Yelena was also a villain along side Runeard. To what extent she was a villain or her reasoning behind being a villain we are not sure of.

However, after this was changed, there was no updated explanation given as to why they were trapped as well. As far as I know, anyway.

Thus, we're only left with speculation.

Maybe the Spirits felt that since the Arendellians and Northuldrans immediately went to fight one another instead of investigating what happened, both groups were deemed as prejudiced. This one I don't really like though because the Northuldrans are the victims, so it doesn't make sense to trap them if they were only defending themselves.

Another explanation is that the purpose of the mist was to hide away the magic and protect the forest - so the Arendellians and the Northuldrans were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This one is the more likely scenario.

As the purpose of the mist was to protect the magic and forest, maybe the Northuldrans were also being protected. I like this one, but I don't think the Spirits have favorites, as they are neutral to humans in general and will help anyone who respects them and go against who ever hurts them, regardless of who they are.

Why did they not destroy the dam themselves?

There is actually a couple reasons as to why this is.

The spirits were asleep all these years until Elsa woke them up.

If they destroy the Dam without getting the innocents out of Arendelle first, then innocents will be killed that had nothing to do with Runeard's treachery.

They wanted someone who actually benefited form Runeard's treachery to right the wrongs of the past. Anna and Elsa, being royal heirs to Runeard and benefiting from his reign, had to do something about this.

If they destroy it themselves, then no one learns anything because no one would know why they did it in the first place. Arendelle just rebuilds and continues their old behaviors.

Why would Ahtohallan freeze Elsa?

I actually wrote a Tid-Bit on this very question. You can go check it out here.

Ahtohallan hypnotized Elsa.

I think Elsa makes it pretty clear that she wants to follow Ahtohallan's call. She was interested in her since childhood; and when she hears her for the first time, the reason she is reluctant is not because she doesn't want it, but she's afraid of making a mistake and ruining the life and love she's gained.

Ahtohallan and the Spirits are to blame for Agnarr & Iduna's deaths.

In this case, the thing that they might be trying to blame is Ahtohallan and the Nokk. First off, Iduna and Agnarr chose to look for Ahtohallan - she never forced them to go to her.

And second, the spirits were asleep at this time, so the Nokk couldn't have caused their deaths. The Dark Sea is already known for being a dangerous area, without any mention of the Nokk - as Elsa and Anna both were concerned that they went there.

Ahtohallan holds the memories for every living thing and is the source of magic. Of course the way to her will be dangerous.

------

[greatqueenanna]

Beautiful song, yes. However, it’s not actually a Kristoff or Frozen song. It was from an earlier attempt at making The Snow Queen an animated from around 2002. It was an attempt from John Lasseter and Glen Keane before they both gave up on the project.I actually wrote about this more here.

Outtake song from ‘The Snow Queen’

Everyone talks about how there’s no Kristoff love ballad outtake song.

But there is, you’re just not going back far enough.

[greatqueenanna]

What is your opinion about #BringElsaHome and do you believe this campaign could have any influence on “Frozen 3” and “Frozen 4”? Maybe change the ending of "Frozen 2"?

Personally, I don't believe they will change what was established at the end of “Frozen 2”: Elsa guardian of the Enchanted Forest living in the forest, and Anna Queen of Arendelle. And I actually believe that this campaign was much more trapped within the fandom, unlike #GiveElsaAGirlfriend, which reached even people who don't know much about the franchise.

This ending of “Frozen 2” has already been reinforced several times as the most correct possible in other materials (“Polar Nights” technically has an entire Elsa monologue on the subject), and having two queens instead of one in the franchise seems to be more interesting for Disney. But can there be any change, even if small, to try to please the people who ran this campaign? One solution I've heard is to have Arendelle be ruled by the two sister queens instead of just Anna, but I still think that would belittle the Enchanted Forest, and while there is this mystery surrounding how the franchise will develop the Northuldra Tribe in the future (there is people theorizing that the tribe will become even more secondary in the next films), I don't think they would do that, but rather that they will continue with what was established at the end of the second film.

My overall opinion of them is very negative, to be honest - for a variety of reasons that I will not go into detail here. It has more to do with their behavior, rather than their opinions.

Regardless, I do not believe that BEH has enough influence to cause any real change within the narrative of the franchise, and especially since the group has been toxic and just really cringe for the majority of the campaign's lifespan.

The Northuldra are definitely not going anywhere. Disney did not sign a deal with The Sami Council and Sami Film Institute just to erase the Northuldra from the franchise. That would be really shitty of Disney to dis them after all this work they put in to give a respectful representation of the Sami-inspired characters.

Elsa and Anna have already been shown in post-side content in their roles, as you mentioned. Disney is standing behind the ending of F2 and have not shown any evidence of back-tracking. The current team on F3 have also already established that Anna and Elsa are "busy in their new roles".

Thus, the request to retcon F2 is already being ignored by the company and film team. Also, it's just nonsensical to think that the sequel that made 1.453 billion and is currently the one of the highest grossing animated film of all time is just gonna be thrown out just because of some critiques.

The best they'll probably do is just show that Anna and Elsa spend a lot of time together and are still close, and especially since protecting The Enchanted Forest and everything associated with it is an important part of Anna's reign and her heritage. They will probably also just better explain Elsa's new role, and show exactly how Anna and Elsa are still working together even though they are living apart.

[greatqueenanna]

So, about that interview where Lee said "I will tell you what I think philosophically, that isn't telling you what is in [Frozen 3]. I think Anna and Elsa's journey is only continuing. It was warned by the Trolls that that Elsa's powers would only grow. So that's all I will say."

Did you manage to find the full clip? I've been searching a little and yes, it's a real interview from Wish premiere https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhg-WzSl6n8&pp=ygUUSmVubmlmZXIgbGVlIGluIHFpc2g%3D Not from 2018/2019 or anything like that. Unfortunately the full interview is not on YT and I don't know where else to look for it. And I think what she said is very bizzare, because it sounds exactly like Frozen 2 plot? Why would Lee talk about Frozen 2 five years after its premiere to some random interviewer, though? Especially when she was there to promote Wish. So maybe there's a chance the beans were spilled and she really was talking about Frozen 3.

The only way to find out the truth is to watch the full interview... which no one knows where to find. Arrrrghhhh

If the clip is an interview from Wish’s promotional period, then it’s safe to assume that Lee is indeed talking about F3. Thank you for finding out more about this, and going the extra mile! I’ll try and look to see if I can find the full interview as well.

In terms of F3 being about Elsa’s power growing— I think exploring Elsa’s magic again is expected. The Frozen franchise, as evident in the title, is all about ice/snow magic. The story is loosely based off of the Snow Queen, also a story that has a lot of magical ice.

Frozen’s main conflict was about Elsa setting off an eternal winter, and how she was going to control her magic.

Frozen 2’s main conflict was where Elsa’s magic came from and how this question is affecting everyone.

While there are other plots and themes, the main pull is the magic. Thus, F3 taking this approach as well is not really shocking or disappointing to me.

Also, given that Elsa and her magic is the main attraction of Frozen, it’s pretty self-explanatory where the focus is going to be.

However, this doesn’t mean that this will be the only thing that the films will focus on. As mentioned, there are other themes and plots that are part of the first two films. Just because we’re getting a film that is exploring Elsa’s magic, doesn’t mean we won’t have Anna, Kristoff, Olaf side plots and scenes— or the themes of love, fear, and sisterhood.

Also, what Lee said is very vague. Elsa’s magic growing could mean a lot of things. She could discover a new power, or creates something more advanced than Olaf, the snowgies or Marshmallow. Maybe it’s a more philosophical thing, as Lee mentions herself, and the idea of Elsa’s magic ‘growing’ could mean that Elsa is becoming more noticeable by other places, people, or by other fanatical/mythological beings.

Ultimately, we have to wait and see what she could be talking about before we jump to conclusions.