#greatqueenanna/responses

[greatqueenanna]

Hey, so do have a history of Hans' development in Frozen? I keep seeing so many posts about how Hans was actually meant to be a good guy and he was Elsa's romance in Frozen or Frozen 2 and what-not and I'm just trying to look at actual sources and facts regarding his character, since I want to write my own analysis, but I think that Hans fans are too biased to provide actual good info.

My What Came Before Analysis details the information I was able to find about Frozen's early development throughout the years.

In terms of Hans specifically, I do have this twitter (X) thread about misinformation within the Hans fandom pushed by a few extremists that you can go ahead and take a look at.

However, since you asked, here are some tid-bits regarding Hans' character throughout the years leading up to the first film.

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Hans was most likely conceptualized around the time Anna and the Snow Queen became Frozen and switched form 2D hand-drawn animation, to 3D animation. Before Anna and Elsa were written as sisters, Hans was written to be the true villain of the story, as a way to help redeem the Snow Queen character. This was around 2010-2011.

Frozen was to open with a prophecy that “a ruler with a frozen heart will bring destruction to the kingdom of Arendelle.” We’re then introduced to Anna, our pure-hearted heroine, and Elsa, an unrelated evil Snow Queen. We learn Elsa is a scorned woman; she was stood up at the altar on her wedding day and froze her own heart so she would never love again. Both Elsa and the audience assume she’s the villain from the prophecy. Fast-forward to the final act: Elsa creates an army of snow monsters to attack our heroes while Kristoff has “a Han Solo moment” and comes to help Anna. To halt Elsa’s attacking army, the two-faced Prince Hans (Admiral Westergaard) triggers a massive avalanche—not caring that the avalanche also puts Anna, Elsa, and all of Arendelle in jeopardy. Anna realizes Elsa is their only hope, so she convinces her to use her powers to save the kingdom. The twist is that the prophecy from the beginning is actually not about Elsa, but about Hans—he’s the one with a metaphorical frozen heart because he’s an unfeeling sociopath. Elsa’s heart is then unfrozen allowing her to love again. - Peter Del Vecho, Entertainment Weekly

After Elsa and Anna were re-written as sisters, the story changed so that Hans and Anna were about to get married, until Elsa kidnaps her from the wedding. The ending was the same as far as I know, with Admiral Westergaard triggering the avalanche to stop Elsa's snowman army, leading to the destruction of Arendelle as well. You can see a tid-bit of this Elsa in the video below -

Eventually, after Let it Go was written, Hans was apparently written as trying to get a job in Arendelle, and Anna was trying to get Elsa to agree but she wouldn't. Then it was changed to the quick engagement plot instead. For the life of me, I can't find the source for this so you can take it with a grain of salt.

Then, Hans was changed to a Prince, and rather than being a reckless, uncaring (and a little dumb) villain that was willing to destroy Arendelle and its people to stop Elsa, Hans was changed to a more cunning villain who was trying to win the throne by emotional manipulation rather than by force.

This is what Jennifer Lee meant when she said the following -

So no, Hans was never a good guy or Elsa's romance interest. And that's everything I know about Hans' development based on sources.

[ericmicael]

Interesting words from Jennifer Lee:

Social media, of course, is already on the case; an avalanche of opinion that Elsa should be gay is gaining force. “That’s dangerous storytelling,” Lee says. “I hear it occasionally in the studio: ‘I don’t want a character who …’

“But it’s not what you want, it’s ‘Who is this character? What does she need?’ It’s hard because you never know what the landscape is like on social media. You can only know what it’s like in that story room.”

In the text she also talks about Elsa's inspiration, which is her own sister, Amy.

“We were kids who grew up with a mom who worked a lot, our parents were divorced. Amy was the responsible one, she had all the burdens. She was magical to me. Everything she did I thought was the greatest thing, though I was not quite so magical to her.”

Lee grins. She’s like a good Disney movie herself. She can switch seamlessly between emotions. “I was the wild child. I had all the creativity, like Anna.”

And some about Elsa's personality:

“Elsa trying to tell jokes is one of the funniest ideas.” Not a natural comedian then? “She tries, the poor thing. I think of her having to face the crowds at Arendelle, an introvert’s nightmare. Things like that are in my head all the time.”

There are other interesting phrases in the interview, but I found these to be the most interesting. I think it's worth a more complete analysis of this interview, @greatqueenanna.

[hb-pickle]

Frozen 2: Myths & Rumors

Before I start, here is an awesome post made by @greatqueenanna about the more popular Frozen 2 rumors. It debunks popular myths such as early drafts of F2 including Elsa dying for real in Ahtohallan and Anna getting magic powers. This post is meant for more small scale rumors that GreatQueenAnna did not address ♥ 

I’m not an expert, so if anyone has any hard proof (screenshots, links, tweets from directors, etc) that any of this isn’t true, please show me!!! Most of these rumors are pure hearsay, with no actual evidence (from what I’ve seen), so I’ll just be using canon sources to disprove them. 

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+ Honeymaren and Ryder are 16/17 years old + FALSE

This rumor apparently comes someone who saw the June 2019 F2 character bios, which stated that Honeymaren is 16 and Ryder is 17. I’ve never seen any evidence of these early character bios, but the current ones that exist (from storybooks, and the fan wiki) do not confirm or list either Northuldra’s age. Their ages are also not confirmed in film.

Honeymaren’s Bio & Ryder’s Bio

Also, if we use our context clues, we can assess that Honeymaren and Ryder are both adults, at the very least. The 1st time we see the Northuldra siblings, they ambush the Frohana gang. Not only that, but they are front and center, Honeymaren dropping down right at the front of the attack team, with Ryder standing a little behind her. Honeymaren is also the first to speak, commanding Anna to “lower her weapon”. Surely the Northuldra wouldn’t send actual children to go ambush and attack the mysterious strangers. And the fact that Honeymaren is 1st to speak, shows that she must hold some sort of important position of power/authority in her group, which wouldn’t be given to a young, inexperienced girl. ((Also if you look at the crowd of Northuldra that attack the main heroes, they are all adults))

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+ Honeymaren and Ryder are Elsa and Anna’s cousins + FALSE

This rumor comes from the same mysterious June documents from above. The only other ‘evidence’ that supports this rumor is that all four characters come from the same tribe, which only means they’re of the same ethnicity, not blood related. Canonically, Honeymaren and Ryder’s only established familial relationships are to each other, as brother and sister. 

Context Clues - When Honeymaren and Ryder identify Iduna’s shawl as Northuldra, they say “This is from one of our oldest families”. People don’t refer to their own family in the 3rd person like that, and if this was their family shawl they would’ve said “my family”(1st person). Also, if this was Honeymaren and Ryder’s family shawl, they would’ve immediately recognized it as their own and would’ve said so. Not to mention, seeing outsiders with their family shawl would’ve probably provoked them to mention the tragic disappearance of their mother/father’s baby sister (young Iduna).

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+ At the end of Frozen 2 Elsa goes to lives in Ahtohallan + FALSE

This rumor apparently comes from a tweet from either Jennifer Lee or Chris Buck. If anyone has these tweets, please show me, but otherwise it’s just a funny rumor. Canonically Elsa's current home is the Enchanted Forest, confirmed by the fan wiki and by the movie’s ending.

Elsa’s Character Bio showing that her current home is the Enchanted Forest.

Enchanted Forest Bio showing that Elsa is a current inhabitant.

Context Clues - Honestly this rumor just doesn’t make sense. Like... why would Elsa live in Ahtohallan when there is nothing in there but ice and murder magic? At the end of the film, Elsa’s new goal in life isn’t explicitly stated, but it’s almost universally agreed upon to be protecting the forest/watching over the spirits (Anna even tells Elsa to “keep looking after the forest” in her paper airplane note). All four spirits live in the Enchanted Forest, so logically she’d chose to live amongst them. At the end of the film, Elsa is also shown happily standing in the Enchanted Forest, right next to the Northuldra’s village (you can see them in the background with their reindeer, houses, campfires, etc). After this establishing shot, she summons Nokk, rides around the Enchanted forest, interacting happily with more Northuldra, and then heads to Ahtohallan across the sea. She explicitly did not refer to Ahtohallan as her home, choosing to say “We’re going for a ride,” not that she was “going home”.

 Also in many post-Frozen 2 children's books and comics, Elsa and Anna both state that Elsa lives in the forest and depict Elsa living in and enjoying the forest.

((There is also no canon evidence that Elsa visited Ahtohallan again after the events of Frozen 2.))

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+ In the deleted song ‘See The Sky’ the Northuldra want Elsa to die for them + FALSE

I assume this comes from a simple translation error. You can see the full lyrics for ‘See The Sky’ HERE. In this song, the Northuldra and the Arendelle soldiers both blame each other for the mist and the fighting. But, they also recognize Elsa as their only hope of escaping and believe she is a gift from nature. The song is supposed to make Elsa (and Anna) feel uneasy because of the immense amount of pressure it puts on them, but the Northuldra nor the Arendellians expect Elsa to die for them or anything. At the end of the song Elsa even says “I want to give this to you!” so she is explicitly accepting the responsibility both sides are asking of her.

This deleted song was showcased in the Disney+ Frozen 2 documentary, and no other context was given for before or after the song would’ve taken place, so we don’t know if Elsa/the forest folk knew of the potential danger ahead.

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+ The scene where Honeymaren and Elsa hold hands was removed in some countries + TRUE

Honeymaren and Elsa touching was just too spicy for some countries I guess lmao. PROOF (very bottom of the page in the trivia section)

(I wanted to end on a nice note)

[the-blue-fairie]

@greatqueenanna, thank you for that beautiful post and the sisters’ connection across Frozen and Frozen 2. It was eloquent, well-argued, and helped me to reflect on some issues I had with the film and gauge if they were truly issues. In the Frozen fandom, I think we sometimes have a tendency to go to extremes about either or both of the sisters based on our emotional connections to one of them in particular or both of them. People who prefer Anna can sometimes be overly critical of Elsa and people who prefer Elsa can sometimes be overly critical of Anna - or people’s perspectives in general can be based more on their emotional responses than the text of the film. This has happened to me before. I once wrote an overly negative take on Elsa and the ice boat scene that I deeply regret because I felt such a close connection to Anna’s perspective in the scene.

On that note, is it okay if I meditate for a moment on parts of your post I agree with and parts I disagree with? Not to be judgmental of you, you understand, but simply to express my opinion.

I agree with your sympathetic take on both Elsa’s and Anna’s motivations during the ice boat scene. Anna wants to go to great lengths to protect Elsa and Elsa wants to go to great lengths to protect Anna. You write that, “Although Elsa really wanted to protect Anna, she needed to come to terms that this was also Anna’s journey and needed to let her come along and help her. While Anna wanted to protect Elsa, she needed to come to terms that change does not mean she will lose what she has.”

My issue is that the film doesn’t really dwell on Elsa “needing to come to terms that this was also Anna’s journey and needing to let her come along and help her.”

Let me explain. Those themes are present in the finished film, but in my opinion, they are not given time to breathe - making Elsa’s arc feel somewhat rushed and unsatisfying to me. While Anna gets a whole song dedicated to her internal self-reflection in The Next Right Thing, Elsa’s moment of understanding and coming to terms with what she needed to come to terms with is presented when Elsa exclaims, “Anna!” and sends the message before freezing. Anna’s epiphany takes more time to hit home for the audience because we are allowed to dwell with her emotions - while Elsa’s epiphany feels abrupt, cut short because Elsa freezes to death and stays frozen for a chunk of time.

Anna’s epiphany has more time to land  and the audience has more time to meditate on it while Elsa’s epiphany is more oblique. We can’t get a personal reflection from Elsa about how fear has influenced Elsa’s interactions with Anna in the earlier scenes because Elsa is frozen. The closest we get to a meditation on fear is Elsa’s address about how, “Fear is what can’t be trusted,” to the memory of Runeard - but that is divorced from the personal fears that have fraught the relationship between the sisters over the course of the film.

Couple that with the fact that Elsa’s apology to Anna at the end is indirect and Elsa’s arc feels... rushed to me. Again, this is my personal opinion. The story beats are there, but (in my opinion) they don’t get the chance to breathe the way Anna’s emotional journey gets a chance to breathe.

The pain of Elsa’s fear for Anna’s safety gets dropped for the dramatic moment of Elsa crossing the Dark Sea, followed by an exultant moment of validation from Iduna, before the film finally circles back to the consequences of Elsa’s actions - but that moment is all too brief for me. Then, while the film clearly and firmly has Anna apologize to Kristoff, it makes Elsa’s apology to Anna indirect. This doesn’t make Elsa bad at all. Elsa is still clearly a loving sister and I’m glad you are highlighting the moments during the reunion when Elsa lifts Anna up; people tend to disregard those in order to be overly negative about Elsa, but at the same time... I feel the indirectness when it comes to Elsa has a negative impact on Elsa’s arc.

As such, I can see why the sisters’ relationship can be so controversial among different parts of the fandom, depending on which character each side gravitates more towards. I have friends who are fans of Anna and sometimes they tell me that Anna got neglected in F2 because, while Elsa gets a whole song validating her in the form of Show Yourself, the focus of the film for Anna is more the pain Anna goes through. At the same time, I also have friends who are Elsa fans who feel that Elsa was done a disservice by F2 because the film rushes certain key aspects of Elsa’s emotional journey and because they feel that Anna’s emotional journey was much more fulfilling.

(Personally, I sympathize deeply with Anna’s perspective in the ice boat scene and, as you might have guessed, I feel Elsa made a mistake in going on her own and feel the film should have given Anna greater validation in the face of all her incredibly justified fears, especially since I feel like Anna suffers a lot in the film... but at the same time, I disagree with people who try to demonize Elsa because, as you mention, Elsa is a loving sister who ultimately does validate Anna. But that’s my own personal agreement with Anna’s perspective speaking, and that’s just my opinion. But I feel my commentary on the discrepancy in time regarding each sister’s epiphany is more objective.)

It’s a complicated matter - and I’ve seen valid discussions from people on all sides (and I’ve also seen people arguing in bad faith either to tear down Elsa and prop up Anna or tear down Anna and prop up Elsa or to unfairly dismiss both the merits and the flaws of F2.)

For my part, I am conflicted about Frozen 2 because, while I feel the basic structure and outline of the film is sound, I feel certain parts aren’t as executed as well as they could be. Parts can be rushed and disjointed, but overall it is a compelling work with interesting ideas.

Sorry, this got really long.

[greatqueenanna]

I've just seen frozen forces of nature arts and queen Disa is so pretty! She looks like a young Halle Berry. I'm in love. ❤

Anon is referring to these official images of Queen Disa.

(I think that's all of them so far).

I think Queen Disa's design is very cute and well made, and it helps make her unique amongst the sisters. It is a little on the nose though. Like, of course her skirt has gear-looking designs haha. Now I'm waiting for some official images of Wolfgang.

[greatqueenanna]

What do you think of the theory that Honeymaren was made especially to please fans of #GiveElsaAGirlfriend and that initially there would be more moments made to shipp the two until Disney decided to reduce these moments? I'm not saying that they would actually be a couple, but that all of this was meticulously planned to please these fans who wanted her to have a girlfriend without confirming anything.

I always thought it was very naive to think that after years of Disney avoiding the question: “Will Elsa have a girlfriend in Frozen 2?” and they release the film which, despite not being romantic, still shows her talking near a campfire (a moment used in many romance films) with a girl of the same age while they caress a reindeer calf, sing a small duet and they talk about magic and traditions when it would have made much more sense for Elsa to have that conversation with Yelana, but the plot made the older woman stay away from there.

According to most sources I’ve seen (but I need to do more research regarding this, if I'm being honest) the reason Honey (and Ryder) were created was to simply have characters that helped the audience empathize with the Northuldra. They used to have a bit more story content in earlier drafts, which is a shame they got rid of chunks of their story because there wasn't enough screen-time for everything.

This is one of the reasons I feel Frozen 2 would've made an amazing series instead of a film, and why Frozen 3 being separated into two films is such a great idea, even if the initial intention was for more profit. Because let's face it, both the first and second films suffer from the 'too much stuff, not enough space' plot issues so having a show and double film will do wonders for the story going forward.

They also needed characters to help gear the story in the right direction. Honey tells Elsa about the Fifth Spirit, and Ryder helps get Kristoff out of the way so that Elsa and Anna could be alone during the boat scene.

The reason I think Yelena was probably not used, is because her original role was to be a villain along side Runeard, but they scrapped the idea after heavy criticism. Since they had already made Honey and Ryder, there was no point I suppose in giving Yelena a different role other than a leader type to mirror Mattias, especially since they had to shrink down the Northuldra's stories to begin with.

Now, in terms of Honey being created specifically to please fans who want Elsa to be with another woman, I can't say for certain.

I do know that there was a tweet that Jen Lee liked during a Frozen QandA on Twitter (X) where a user begged her to keep Elsa single so that people can imagine her to be with another woman if they wanted. I will see if I can find this tweet for you, but as Jen Lee deleted her Twitter, I’ve lost a lot of sources.

Unless her sentiments have changed, I think Jen Lee will try to keep Elsa single for as long as possible so that fans can decide for themselves what Elsa's sexuality is. Elsa means so much for fans of all sexual orientations, leaving her sexuality open lets fans have freedom with her character. Jen Lee was always about leaving things open for fans, so this concept is not a stretch.

Thus, the possibility that Honey was introduced so that Elsa can have a strong relationship with another woman that is not Anna, but is left open so that fans can interpret the relationship as romantic or platonic, could be a thing.

However, as said, there is no evidence for it other than speculation.

This is also the reason that I pretty confident that Elsa will never be paired off with a man either. They want to leave it open for fans to decide for themselves. Again, unless their thoughts have changed on the subject.

[greatqueenanna]

What do you think of those videos on YouTube that bad mouths Frozen/Frozen 2 (ex: Frozen is a Pathetic Mess. Frozen 2 is a Pathetic Sequel. Frozen 2 is a Mess etc?) and how do I a fan of both Frozen & the Sequel deal with it?

Everyone is allowed to have their opinions of art, and if someone doesn't like Frozen, F2 or both, that is fine. They can absolutely say and create whatever they want.

I do think however that if someone has a video with the word 'pathetic' or 'mess' in the title, they're obviously doing it for click bait; not because they actually want to have a genuine discussion about the films. It automatically makes me not want to see the video. That's just me though.

The best way to deal with criticism for something you like that means a lot to you, is to not take it personally.

I completely understand and know the pain of seeing a video or reading a take that makes you frustrated, and it sits with you for the rest of the day and ruins it. In this case, you basically just need to accept that people have different tastes, and just because they might've said something that is wrong or just frustrating, doesn't really take away what the franchise has done for you.

The films are still there for you to enjoy whenever you want, and there are plenty of fans to discuss the films in a way that makes you happy - and maybe even openly and comfortably discuss any flaws you might've had issues with the franchise without feeling like the thing you love is being attacked.

This leads into to the second thing you need to do - knowing your limits.

If you do not feel like you can emotionally handle something you love being criticized, and do not want to engage with that type of discussion, then take steps to avoid this as much as possible. Block users and tags, tell YouTube to stop recommending certain types of videos or creators. Make your space a place where you can enjoy what you love in a way that makes you happy, not frustrated.

Yes, as mentioned, people can discuss art in any way they like. However, you also have the freedom to disregard them.

Now, if you do get the itch and want to respond to the criticism, and feel like you can handle it in a way that is respectful, then I recommend not doing it right away.

Take a deep breath, walk away from the post/video, and gather your thoughts and emotions first. That way you don't say or do something you later regret, or engage yourself in a discussion you really didn't want to have in the first place, but now you're in a full on debate and you don't know how to get out of it.

I've made the mistake of creating rant posts while I was angry and saying/doing things that were not handled the best way. I'm human after all. Thus, always take a step back before you respond to criticism. In the end, when your anger has died down, you may not even be bothered by the critique anymore and don't' feel the need to say anything.

So that's my recommendation on how to deal with type of thing. I hope it helps a bit!

[greatqueenanna]

Why didn't Olaf's love save Anna? Isn't his willingness to melt for her an act of true love?

To be honest with you, while its not explicitly stated anywhere, I am under the fan belief that Anna needed to perform the act herself. Because not only does Olaf's act count, but Also Kristoff running back to Arendelle and leaving Anna with Hans.

Like what Olaf said haha.

I believe that Anna had to do the act herself and save her own heart. The film puts a lot of emphasis that Anna doesn't really know what love is, and also pushes the idea that 'Anna thawed her own heart'. This emphasis is probably there to push this point across, that Anna needed to understand love in order for her heart to thaw.

It's just one of those quirky things about Frozen's lore I suppose.

[greatqueenanna]

I've seen Frozen 2 antis make the claim that the Four Spirits are not a benevolent as the movie showcases, or say they're downright sinister. Reasons being is because they also punished The Northuldrans by locking them in the midst, or question why they didn't destroy the damn themselves. Same goes for Ahtolhallan, who I seen people question why would they freeze Elsa, the Fifth Spirit. I've also seen people blame Ahtolhallan for taking Elsa away from Arendelle claiming it hypnotized her or some bs *rolls eyes*. I've also seen others blame both for Agnarr & Iduna's deaths (the latter being a Northuldran).

What do you think about this?

There are a few critiques here, so I'll tackle one at a time.

The Spirits punished The Northuldrans by locking them in the mist.

This critique is a common one, and one that I actually think is valid. Whether it is coming from a genuine place of confusion or just trying to throw as much shade towards the Spirits as possible, this critique is actually a bit tricky to rationalize, because the film itself and the writers never really answered why the Northuldrans are also trapped in the mist.

We know that the initial reason as to why they were trapped as well was because in early drafts, Yelena was also a villain along side Runeard. To what extent she was a villain or her reasoning behind being a villain we are not sure of.

However, after this was changed, there was no updated explanation given as to why they were trapped as well. As far as I know, anyway.

Thus, we're only left with speculation.

Maybe the Spirits felt that since the Arendellians and Northuldrans immediately went to fight one another instead of investigating what happened, both groups were deemed as prejudiced. This one I don't really like though because the Northuldrans are the victims, so it doesn't make sense to trap them if they were only defending themselves.

Another explanation is that the purpose of the mist was to hide away the magic and protect the forest - so the Arendellians and the Northuldrans were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. This one is the more likely scenario.

As the purpose of the mist was to protect the magic and forest, maybe the Northuldrans were also being protected. I like this one, but I don't think the Spirits have favorites, as they are neutral to humans in general and will help anyone who respects them and go against who ever hurts them, regardless of who they are.

Why did they not destroy the dam themselves?

There is actually a couple reasons as to why this is.

The spirits were asleep all these years until Elsa woke them up.

If they destroy the Dam without getting the innocents out of Arendelle first, then innocents will be killed that had nothing to do with Runeard's treachery.

They wanted someone who actually benefited form Runeard's treachery to right the wrongs of the past. Anna and Elsa, being royal heirs to Runeard and benefiting from his reign, had to do something about this.

If they destroy it themselves, then no one learns anything because no one would know why they did it in the first place. Arendelle just rebuilds and continues their old behaviors.

Why would Ahtohallan freeze Elsa?

I actually wrote a Tid-Bit on this very question. You can go check it out here.

Ahtohallan hypnotized Elsa.

I think Elsa makes it pretty clear that she wants to follow Ahtohallan's call. She was interested in her since childhood; and when she hears her for the first time, the reason she is reluctant is not because she doesn't want it, but she's afraid of making a mistake and ruining the life and love she's gained.

Ahtohallan and the Spirits are to blame for Agnarr & Iduna's deaths.

In this case, the thing that they might be trying to blame is Ahtohallan and the Nokk. First off, Iduna and Agnarr chose to look for Ahtohallan - she never forced them to go to her.

And second, the spirits were asleep at this time, so the Nokk couldn't have caused their deaths. The Dark Sea is already known for being a dangerous area, without any mention of the Nokk - as Elsa and Anna both were concerned that they went there.

Ahtohallan holds the memories for every living thing and is the source of magic. Of course the way to her will be dangerous.

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[greatqueenanna]

What is your opinion about #BringElsaHome and do you believe this campaign could have any influence on “Frozen 3” and “Frozen 4”? Maybe change the ending of "Frozen 2"?

Personally, I don't believe they will change what was established at the end of “Frozen 2”: Elsa guardian of the Enchanted Forest living in the forest, and Anna Queen of Arendelle. And I actually believe that this campaign was much more trapped within the fandom, unlike #GiveElsaAGirlfriend, which reached even people who don't know much about the franchise.

This ending of “Frozen 2” has already been reinforced several times as the most correct possible in other materials (“Polar Nights” technically has an entire Elsa monologue on the subject), and having two queens instead of one in the franchise seems to be more interesting for Disney. But can there be any change, even if small, to try to please the people who ran this campaign? One solution I've heard is to have Arendelle be ruled by the two sister queens instead of just Anna, but I still think that would belittle the Enchanted Forest, and while there is this mystery surrounding how the franchise will develop the Northuldra Tribe in the future (there is people theorizing that the tribe will become even more secondary in the next films), I don't think they would do that, but rather that they will continue with what was established at the end of the second film.

My overall opinion of them is very negative, to be honest - for a variety of reasons that I will not go into detail here. It has more to do with their behavior, rather than their opinions.

Regardless, I do not believe that BEH has enough influence to cause any real change within the narrative of the franchise, and especially since the group has been toxic and just really cringe for the majority of the campaign's lifespan.

The Northuldra are definitely not going anywhere. Disney did not sign a deal with The Sami Council and Sami Film Institute just to erase the Northuldra from the franchise. That would be really shitty of Disney to dis them after all this work they put in to give a respectful representation of the Sami-inspired characters.

Elsa and Anna have already been shown in post-side content in their roles, as you mentioned. Disney is standing behind the ending of F2 and have not shown any evidence of back-tracking. The current team on F3 have also already established that Anna and Elsa are "busy in their new roles".

Thus, the request to retcon F2 is already being ignored by the company and film team. Also, it's just nonsensical to think that the sequel that made 1.453 billion and is currently the one of the highest grossing animated film of all time is just gonna be thrown out just because of some critiques.

The best they'll probably do is just show that Anna and Elsa spend a lot of time together and are still close, and especially since protecting The Enchanted Forest and everything associated with it is an important part of Anna's reign and her heritage. They will probably also just better explain Elsa's new role, and show exactly how Anna and Elsa are still working together even though they are living apart.

[greatqueenanna]

So, about that interview where Lee said "I will tell you what I think philosophically, that isn't telling you what is in [Frozen 3]. I think Anna and Elsa's journey is only continuing. It was warned by the Trolls that that Elsa's powers would only grow. So that's all I will say."

Did you manage to find the full clip? I've been searching a little and yes, it's a real interview from Wish premiere https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhg-WzSl6n8&pp=ygUUSmVubmlmZXIgbGVlIGluIHFpc2g%3D Not from 2018/2019 or anything like that. Unfortunately the full interview is not on YT and I don't know where else to look for it. And I think what she said is very bizzare, because it sounds exactly like Frozen 2 plot? Why would Lee talk about Frozen 2 five years after its premiere to some random interviewer, though? Especially when she was there to promote Wish. So maybe there's a chance the beans were spilled and she really was talking about Frozen 3.

The only way to find out the truth is to watch the full interview... which no one knows where to find. Arrrrghhhh

If the clip is an interview from Wish’s promotional period, then it’s safe to assume that Lee is indeed talking about F3. Thank you for finding out more about this, and going the extra mile! I’ll try and look to see if I can find the full interview as well.

In terms of F3 being about Elsa’s power growing— I think exploring Elsa’s magic again is expected. The Frozen franchise, as evident in the title, is all about ice/snow magic. The story is loosely based off of the Snow Queen, also a story that has a lot of magical ice.

Frozen’s main conflict was about Elsa setting off an eternal winter, and how she was going to control her magic.

Frozen 2’s main conflict was where Elsa’s magic came from and how this question is affecting everyone.

While there are other plots and themes, the main pull is the magic. Thus, F3 taking this approach as well is not really shocking or disappointing to me.

Also, given that Elsa and her magic is the main attraction of Frozen, it’s pretty self-explanatory where the focus is going to be.

However, this doesn’t mean that this will be the only thing that the films will focus on. As mentioned, there are other themes and plots that are part of the first two films. Just because we’re getting a film that is exploring Elsa’s magic, doesn’t mean we won’t have Anna, Kristoff, Olaf side plots and scenes— or the themes of love, fear, and sisterhood.

Also, what Lee said is very vague. Elsa’s magic growing could mean a lot of things. She could discover a new power, or creates something more advanced than Olaf, the snowgies or Marshmallow. Maybe it’s a more philosophical thing, as Lee mentions herself, and the idea of Elsa’s magic ‘growing’ could mean that Elsa is becoming more noticeable by other places, people, or by other fanatical/mythological beings.

Ultimately, we have to wait and see what she could be talking about before we jump to conclusions.

[greatqueenanna]

Why do some people claim that Elsa is a bad character?

Because she's popular.

On a serious note, while her popularity does play a huge part as to why she is typically criticized (it's become a sport at this point, along with criticizing Frozen itself), it probably also has to do with people just not understanding her character.

The biggest criticism I see is that Elsa is, quote, "selfish".

Elsa reacts to things in a way that may seem selfish when you look at her at face-value. Pushing people away or constantly self-hating tends to cause people to think that you're always just stuck in your own head and don't' really consider the feelings of others.

However, most people understand that Elsa grew up feeling like that she's a burden on everyone, and she's the sole cause of the misfortune and pain that surrounds her loved ones. Because of this, Elsa kind of takes up this martyr role, feeling like she needs to sacrifice her needs for others to make up for this.

What seems self-serving is when she doesn't really listen to her loved ones when they say 'you need to stop doing this to yourself' and just falls into old habits of pushing people away. However, it's because Elsa has been through quite a lot, and just wants her and her loved ones to be happy - even if it means making decisions on their behalf or self-isolating.

Obviously, she grows out of this at the end of F2, but until people see her growth in full-force in the third film, they will continue to push this narrative. But she's not intentionally doing this because it makes her feel better - she's doing it because it's how she's learned to take care of her loved ones, keeping secrets and isolating.

Elsa is a complex, imperfect character - and that tends to cause people to have extreme opinions when a character is this nuanced.

[greatqueenanna]

I think the biggest reason for Agnar and Iduna’s failure in handing Elsa’s magic, is that they were so concerned with the direct result of the accident that they neglected their daughters emotional states in the aftermath of the accident. Elsa need emotional comfort that her powers didn’t make her a monster. Anna may have been five, but anything would have been better then leaving her in the dark to think that her sister hated her. And to be clear, I don’t hate their parents. This just came up.

For the most part, I agree. Iduna and Agnarr's choices were extreme because of their fears and they forgot to take care of their daughter's emotional states and better nurture them.

But I also feel that there are still some things to consider here.

Iduna and Agnarr had no knowledge of what Elsa's magic is meant to be or represent. They didn't know where Elsa's magic came from, if they were good or bad, or how Elsa is supposed to control them - or that she even needed to control them in the first place.

As far as they were concerned, Elsa was able to control them just fine and played freely with Anna with no issues. This was just something unique that Elsa was born with and could be easily pursued and studied when the time came for it. No urgency here.

Then Anna got hurt, completely by accident, and almost died.

These mysterious powers, once thought to be just a unique trait, were now shown to be capable of causing serious harm. Now there is a huge urgency to better understand these powers. However, there were no answers - only uncertainties.

Who/what gave Elsa this magic, and why?

What is the purpose of this magic?

Will the magic hurt Anna again?

Will Anna's condition progress again if she sees the magic?

Will the magic hurt someone else this time?

Was the magic capable of hurting Elsa herself?

What would the kingdom think?

Will the kingdom come after Elsa to hurt her?

Will the Kingdom deny her the right to rule?

Would another Kingdom try to attack Arendelle?

Uncertainty leads to fear, and fear leads to bad choices.

Now, I'm not saying "You can't criticize Agnarr and Iduna or want more accountability for their choices." Far from it.

I personally still want closure for the past and hope they finally just let Anna and Elsa talk about it without any subtleties. After all, it was the choices of the parents that led to Anna and Elsa's more serious flaws and its about time to just let the conversation happen. You don't have to paint the parents in a bad light to do this, since they did recognize that what they were doing wasn't working, and died in their attempt to make it right - which is very commendable and heartbreaking. But it also wouldn't hurt the narrative at all by just letting the conversation finally happen.

TLDR - Its easy for us on the outside to say- "Did the parents seriously think that by isolating Elsa and teaching her to hide a part of herself was going to end well, and not add to her trauma of hurting Anna while damaging her self-esteem?" when we know how to control the magic, and what Elsa's magic is meant to be. Actually being in this situation, however, is a completely different story, and there was a lot that Agnarr and Iduna had to consider, including both of their daughter's safety as well as the safety and security of Arendelle itself, as was their responsibility as rulers.

[greatqueenanna]

Is Hans mean to be a foil only to Anna (the protagonist)? Or is he meant to be a foil to Elsa, Kristoff and Olaf as well?

That's an interesting question actually.

On the surface, Hans is obviously a foil to Anna. Both of them were shut out by siblings, both of them were spares, both of them didn't know what love was. However, while Anna chose to find love and have hope - choosing to understand and forgive Elsa. Hans, on the other hand, continues to be bitter and uses his hate towards his family and use it as a driving force for his actions.

This is most likely because even though Anna's parents did problematic things, they still loved their daughters and tried their best to help them with the knowledge they had. Hans' parents, as by Jennifer Lee's words, didn't give Hans any love. We can even push this mirroring more with F2 - Hans tried to manipulate and force his way to become a ruler, while Anna earned it through her selfless actions and strength.

However, Hans could actually be a foil to the other characters as well. Anna he mirrors the most, but I do think there are some things he mirrors for the others as well.

Both Hans and Elsa are hiding who they truly are - they are both even using gloves as a visual representation of their secrecy. For Elsa, it is to protect others from herself. For Hans, he's 'protecting' himself. In other words, he's hiding what he actually wants so he can obtain it.

Hans and Kristoff are both people who have become disillusioned by the world. Anna becomes a window to the world for both of them. For Hans, Anna helps him by being a tool he can use to get what he wants form the world. For Kristoff, Anna helps him open up and reunite with the world.

Now for Olaf - Olaf represents the love between the sisters and helps to bring them back together in the end. Hans, on the other hand, drives them further apart and is the cause of them fighting and Elsa revealing her magic.

[greatqueenanna]

I was scrolling through your posts and read your response to an anon's question regarding Male Elsa (or Elias lol) and you mentioned if they meant villain Elsa. My question is, what would the movie be like if Elsa was a villain but redeemable and sympathetic as originally planned, in your opinion?

It depends on which Elsa we're talking about. Because there are two evil, but sympathetic pre-Elsa's.

The one on the left (we'll call her Crown!Elsa) is the Elsa that is not related to Anna, with the backstory of being left at the altar and becoming the self-proclaimed Snow Queen after freezing her own heart. The one on the right (Onion!Elsa) is the Elsa that is Anna's sister and was forced to hide her magic, becoming jealous of Anna finding love and freezes her heart so she'll know her pain.

Both of them end up trying to attack Arendelle with a Snow Man army, only to be foiled by Hans who causes an avalanche to destroy them and Arendelle. Anna helps both realize their mistakes, and convinces them to help save Arendelle, becoming redeemed.

You can find more info on them and other versions of Pre-Frozen in my What Came Before Analysis (Shameless self-plug in lol).

In terms of Crown!Elsa, I don't think her story would be as emotional to be honest. Interesting, sure, but Anna and Elsa being sisters is like the breakthrough that made this story work in the first place. A random lady that Anna has to appeal to to get her to be good doesn't hold the same weight, unless if Anna knew her on a personal level (friend of her mom, aunt, care taker, mentor, etc).

Now, Onion!Elsa always sounded really interesting to me. Don't get me wrong, I would choose the Elsa we have now any day, but I have to admit that Onion!Elsa always sounded like a really fun character. If we go by her original characterization, she seemed very childish in a way and very overly dramatic.

Like, look at this old art by Claire Keane.

She just seems so full of character and emotion - she seems like she is both goofy and full of heartache that you can't help but feel for her. Also, she apparently raps. I kid you not. If you read @Stitchkingdom's post here, you can actually take a look at Onion!Elsa and Anna's song that predated FTFTIF Reprise, Cool With Me.

So if we take Onion!Elsa, and put her right into the current Frozen and Frozen 2, things would be very different.

First off, Onion!Elsa would probably be much crueler towards Anna wanting to marry Hans - straight up calling her stupid. I'm pretty sure Onion!Elsa would cause the winter on purpose as well. I'm also pretty sure she would hit Anna on purpose (but regret it afterwards), and have no issues killing off the Duke's Henchmen. She would probably clap back at Hans' "Don't be the monster they fear you are!" with something like "How about you tell them to stop trying to murder me?!" She would probably be less kind to Hans and the Duke's treachery, and probably at the very least freeze their asses before sending them away.

In Frozen 2, she would probably be much more distant in Arendelle and could maybe feel a stronger pull towards the voice. I imagine Onion!Elsa would also be much more strict with Anna following her everywhere, and have no problems pushing her away earlier on (for example, maybe she straight up leaves Anna behind at the Northuldra Camp after the Earth Giants come along to chase them). Also, Onion!Elsa would most likely let Arendelle fall to be rebuilt, because she would be much more offended by her grandfather's treachery and feel it needs to be destroyed, even if the spirits felt otherwise.

[greatqueenanna]

What is the general consensus when it comes to Frozen 2? I want to believe it’s well liked but often I’ve seen thins like ‘This fanfic is a better sequel than Frozen 2’, ‘OUAT was the better sequel story’, ‘Anna & Elsa are OOC/flanderized/Not the same people in Frozen 2’, ‘Frozen 2 is a bad sequel’ etc… What do you think?

Frozen 2 has a 77% Critic Score and 92% Audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. It has a 6.8 on IMDB, 64% on Metacritic, and on Google 94% of users enjoyed the film. Frozen 2 has won 19 awards and has 92 nominations. It's also one of the highest grossing animated films of all time.

So, while the film is obviously not groundbreaking like the first film, and definitely no masterpiece, it was received with a luke-warm reception from critics, and audiences actually loved the film.

Also, keep in mind that Frozen 2 is the sequel to a film that was criticized to an extreme degree due to it's popularity. Meaning that, for the most part, people were ready to hate this film because they hated the first film. Frozen's own scores actually lowered over the years due to this 'I hate it because it's popular' phenomenon. Don't believe me? Look at the IMDB score.

This was exactly one month after release. Frozen had a whopping 8.1 score from when it was first released and actually remained that way until January. Then, as the months and years went by, you see how the score dropped gradually after it's jump in popularity, until it reached it's current score - 7.4. You can see the drop yourself using The Way Back Machine.

Thus, F2's luke-warm reception could have also been affected by Frozen's own popularity. As said, many were ready to hate this film.

Now, when it comes to hardcore fans....that's a different story.

The thing about the Frozen fandom is that we are much more passionate about certain topics, relationships, and characters - leading us to be more critical because of those passions. Not to mention that this sequel was anticipated for six years, while many fans had already created high/unrealistic expectations, head canons, cult-like favoritism for certain characters, and went through quite a few shipping wars.

Thus, take the criticisms brought on by critics and multiply them by 50% because fans were disappointed with a narrative choice that didn't follow their personal head canon or show favoritism to their personal ideals.

Now, with all this being said, I'm not trying to say that F2's criticisms are not valid or warranted. There are many valid and good critiques from critics, audiences, and fans alike. What I am saying is that a lot of what you're seeing comes from a lot of things, not just F2's own quality as a film and sequel - making this topic very nuanced and not so cut-and-dry. Bias plays a big role here as well.