Not sure if you have covered this, but I’ll ask. How would you have gone about Macaque’s redemption arc…if it’s possible with how he was written before season four? No hate or debate, just curious. I like alternate takes on characters :3
Hmm okay I thought on this for a little bit, and the crux of my problem with Macaque’s arc is that he’s established late Season Three to be “not a bad person” when-
1. He enjoys hurting people
2. He goes out of his way to hurt people
3. He hurts many people
4. He expresses no regret or remorse for hurting people
5. He faces no consequences for hurting innocent people aside from his intended victims winning their fights against him
6. His victims are reduced to a hivemind of non-autonomous set dressings who have no feelings on his presence or past crimes
And he promptly just becomes a person that everyone is okay with despite everything. So, if we have to keep the “one good action is enough to redeem you for betrayal, deceit, slandering, multiple counts of assault and attempted murder”, then we need to shift some things.
So I think the best thing to do if we want the actual “redemption arc” to hit the way it’s supposed to in canon is-
1. Thin his list of victims
2. Thin his list of crimes to the point that one good deed is actually a reasonable atonement for all of them
3. Play up his victimhood at the hands of the Mayor
4. Establish his inability to escape from the Lady Bone Demon much sooner
If the crux of his arc is just being forgiven by ONE of his many victims and then becoming a good person, then we just need to sharply reduce the amount of victims he has to make the immediate and all-encompassing forgiveness feel more realistic.
When he’s “sieging” the city in Macaque, the Smoke Demon ignores everyone who isn’t MK and deals no structural damage, creating no victims aside from the Monkie Kid.
When he’s performing in Shadowplay, Macaque portals MK away to fight him alone, leaving everyone else unharmed, creating no victims aside from the kid.
Then, when he’s stolen away by the Mayor, either:
1. Lady Bone Demon implants him with her powers right away, preventing him from running away and immediately establishing him as desperate, or, what I’d argue for-
2. Send the Mayor with him.
When he receives the compass and is released, Macaque pulls a Bone Key-
and throws it away, trying to shadow portal away, only to be greeted by
The Mayor, who proceeds to outright accompany Macaque on this journey, thereby serving as a foil to Tang Sanzang.
Where Sun Wukong was taken under the wing of someone who genuinely cared for him and wanted to see him improve, Macaque is forcibly dragged along by an outright malicious figure who wants to see him rot.
(Fuck, have Lady Bone Demon give Macaque an ice circlet to seal the “foil” deal! Have him be forced into these actions in outright agony! It would help Sun Wukong sympathize with him, expediting the “forgiveness” that a redemption arc needs!)
In fact, every time Macaque tries to leave, or steps out of line or even just fails? You hear an offscreen thud and yelping and then when we get to see him next, there’s new bruises on his body, new tears in his clothes. His fur becomes messy. His eyes grow haunted.
Play up his victimhood to coax the audience into sympathizing with him.
Macaque tries to run. The Mayor hurts him. He tries to stall. The Mayor hurts him. He tries to argue. The Mayor hurts him. He tries to fight back. The Mayor beats him back into subservience.
Establish that Macaque has utterly exhausted all avenues of “escape” before he resorts to attacking the Monkie Kids, and even then, have him try to avoid the majority of them in favor of MK, only to be forced by the Mayor into actually fighting Mei, Tang, Sandy, and Pigsy.
So now every character understands why he’s doing this- and don’t have a reason to hold it against him or expect any further atonement because none of his worst actions (like sieging the Dragon Palace) actually need to be addressed- they aren’t his fault.
That basically solves all the problems I have with the “arc” as it stands, honestly.
I think I'll just say this: I don't agree when people call any of the islanders "bad parents" just because their parenting is flawed.
Like, parents and their parenting is flawed. Inherently. One parent cannot meet all the demands of their child; it is literally impossible. As humans are imperfect, there will always be something missing or lacking in one's parenting. Hell, sometimes even two parents can't meet all their child's needs, depending on their personalities. If that's the case, then I guess all parents are bad parents. But that's not the case, so I don't get why people are so adamant when they see that a parent isn't handling things 100% perfectly and go "wow this person's parenting sucks."
And this is even more so when you take into account... pretty much everything going on in Quesadilla island. These people never really planned to be parents, yet here they are! And this island is out to kill these kids, so it's also a dangerous game of survival now, too! There are horrors around pretty much every corner. Plus, outside or inside forces are making the islanders suffer very often. The islanders are never okay. How they take care of their children is going to be different just by the very basis of their environment. The standards of parenting are different here. Their relationships with people, including their children, were never going to be 100% healthy or positive or okay. It's just not possible.
so, no, I don't think that just cause, say, q!Tubbo or q!Phil aren't great in regards to their emotional intelligence and often isolate themselves, or when any other parents in general don't handle what their children are going through perfectly, that they're bad parents. That kinda statement feels like it diminishes pretty much all the hard work and effort and love they put into taking care of their kids and even kids that aren't their own. Tubbo gives his everything for Sunny, and was/is an active babysitter for a lot of other eggs. Phil works so hard to love and teach survival to and take care of his two eggs equally. (Like, being 'basically' a single parent, of one or WORSE, two, is already hard enough in the real world - imagine being one on this fucking hellscape they're on).
Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out the parents' flaws. Their flaws make them human, and it'd be foolish to disregard their humanity. And it's interesting to analyze their flaws and what they say about the character, and how they impact their family. There's nuance there, and it should be discussed.
But I think when you're just going "oh, they're bad at parenting in general" because they fumble the bag in other departments lacks nuance. Sure, if you're just saying "they're bad when it comes to certain aspects of parenting," that's a different story, because that's understanding their flaws while recognizing that those flaws don't define all of their parenting. But to just say they're bad at it in general isn't productive analysis of their characters in any way. I haven't watched q!Phil take care of his egg for a whole year (followed by a second egg more consistently shortly after) only for people to shit on his parenting just because his lack emotional intelligence is more noticeable as of recent due to all the trauma and bullshit he's endured. And I haven't seen q!Tubbo put his whole heart into taking care of Sunny as well as multiple other eggs, being Chayanne and Tallulah's reliable godfather, just for people to put down his efforts because he's not always great at more emotionally in depth conversations. They're good parents in a lot of ways, and those strengths shouldn't be discredited just because they aren't good at other things. Their characters deserve way better than that.
tldr these parents are all good in many regards and are just trying their damn best in the worst of circumstances, can we cut them just a bit of slack, please?
Hey if you're a white person (as I am too!) and reading the stuff about End OTW Racism (@end-otw-racism) is making you uncomfortable CONGRATULATIONS THATS THE POINT bipoc have been uncomfortable in fandom for decades and some of yall can't face being uncomfortable for five seconds and still have the gall to have shit like BLM in your descriptions.
Put your money where your mouth is. Be uncomfortable. Actually read what they're talking about and what changes they're proposing instead of jumping right to BuT wHaT aBoUt My DaRk FiC (they want to protect your dark fic and help ensure you're safer from harassment over it!)and ThEy'Re PrO-cEnSoRsHiP (they are explicitly not).
I'm so fucking tired of having my posts and those I reblog on this topic largely ignored on my personal account, but ESPECIALLY I'm furious about how ignored posts on racism in fandom are when I put them on the danmei art sideblogs.
I see racism every single fucking DAY as part of running those accounts. This isn't some nebulous thing happening elsewhere, this is us!
If you don't care, I really need you to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself WHY DONT I CARE?
so you want to tell me that after the blip when maria learnt that natasha romanoff, her soulmate, had sacrificed herself for the whole world, she was actually ALONE? that she tried to manage everything on her own and deal with the after-blip chaos without nick’s help? that nick didn’t respond to her messages? THE ANGST PEOPLE, THE ANGST???!!!
i was gonna make a whole seperate post about how context and art seems to imply that the ex boyfriend that got stephanie pregnant was at least 18, if not older, when she was 16/15, which is kinda squicky (i mean not if she's 16 really, but 15 yes) but in my journeys on the Stephanie Brown wiki (real and delightful thing that exists) i discovered the batman chronicles #22 where her UNCLE HITS ON HER???? i think that's what we're meant to get from it anyway the dialogue is subtle (the art is not imo). AND I. WAS NOT EXPECTING THAT. STEPHANIE YOU CAN START AS MANY GANG WARS AS YOU WANT WITH YOUR LIFE THE WAY IT IS WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK
Sir, You have like 3 kids (at this time) and 6 other allies (not counting future ones) when are you alone? Alfred since day one, Dick came a year into Batman, what's with this stupid 'I'm alone' shit?
i hate the fact the term karen went from describing a bitchy entitled customer to basically the modern day equivalent of calling a woman a harpy (misogynistic as fuck) and that people use the term on people out in public who are at the end of their rope emotionally from stress or a shitty day. I get it just because your having a rough time doesn't mean you get to be a dick but sometimes I think people are seriously lacking in empathy and I get it a lot shit the customer might be dealing with isn't your responsibility but like if a customer is struggling with something simple maybe don't be a dick? Just a thought.
If whoever is behind the Jade Emperor's death is trying to cause the world to spiral into chaos, I think Nezha is the next one on their list, and here's why:
(My theory located below, condensed into occasionally colored bullet points, and with pictures! So you don't get bored :>)
So
Let’s take a look at these pictures:
Here, in this picture, we get to see all of Heaven’s generals gathered to stop Azure’s rebellion in its tracks.
Now look at this second picture. In it, Nezha and Red Son are the only discernible figures standing out from the crowd of Celestial Soldiers. Which to me, points to one thing:
Nezha is the only (or at least most prominent) general left in Heaven. Meaning before the Jade Emperor’s death, he and the Jade Emperor were just about the only ones running the show. Why are they the only ones left? Well there are a few reasons, but they basically all boil down to:
Most of the really important Celestials left
Allow me to provide my evidence by listing several examples we've witnessed in-show via the following bullet points:
Erlang was nowhere to be found during Azure’s second rebellion, implying that he isn’t present in the Celestial Realm (I heard somewhere that he lives in a mountain in the Mortal Realm and doesn't interfere with Celestial Realm business unless asked by the JE himself, though I'm not sure if that's true or not. Regardless, he doesn't seem to be present in Heaven nonetheless).
Iron Fan left the Celestial Realm to be with DBK
Similarly, Kui Mulang sacrificed his position in the Celestial Realm for love as well
Azure Lion, Peng, and Yellow-Tusk are all former Celestials who decided to rebel against the Jade Emperor, getting them kicked out of Heaven
Considering how many instances of Celestials abandoning their duties in the Celestial Realm (or just being kicked out in the Brotherhood's case) we’ve seen in the show, it’s not too far-fetched to imagine that many other unmentioned Celestials also followed suit, until the Celestial Realm became absurdly understaffed.
I think the Jade Emperor and Nezha being basically the only brain cells in charge could also explain a few things as well:
The Celestial Realm’s overall absence from mortal affairs
If the only people in charge were the JE and Nezha (who was also busy guarding an incredibly important world-destroying artifact, the map to the Samadhi Fire), it would make sense why the Celestial Realm wasn’t getting very involved with the Mortal Realm. They were too busy keeping the realm up and running to interfere with mortals.
Nezha’s personality shift from his mischievous, caution-to-the-wind, “LET-ME-AT-’IM!!!” attitude in the book to his responsible, frustrated, “Don’t-poke-a-fucking-fork-in-the-socket” personality in the show
If Nezha had to take on more and more responsibility in the Celestial Realm (what with having to help keep it running and guarding the map of the Samadhi Fire), his personality would likely shift as a result, turning into the personality presented in the show today.
(That’s also another parallel between him and MK, that is being forced to take on a larger role in the world by forces outside of their control, when they’d really rather not).
Nezha wanting to fight Azure to the death
While the main reason for Nezha’s stubbornness seems to be that Azure becoming the new Jade Emperor was a big no-no, it could also be that deep down he knew if the Jade Emperor fell, and Azure couldn’t handle the JE’s power, then the responsibility of keeping the realm together would fall to him. A responsibility he wasn’t ready for.
I’m not as certain about this, however, and it could easily just be a personality thing + Nezha knowing the possible consequences of if Azure failed to keep control of the Emperor’s power.
Why there were only two magic dog statues guarding the Jade Emperor's throne room in Revenge of the Spider Queen (and really just the Celestial Realm's lackluster security overall. Seriously even Jin & Yin robbed the place with seemingly little to no trouble)
If Nezha and JE were basically the only ones in charge, it could explain the poor security in the Celestial Realm. It's not that they're bad at security or anything, don't get me wrong, they're just spread too thin, and have a lot of other things to focus on besides making sure people don't rob them.
My friend suggested this as a possible consequence of a low staffed Celestial Realm when I told them about this theory, and I agree with their idea.
Now here’s the fun part: What Nezha disappearing could cause, because oh boy would it cause a lot! Here’s some possible consequences of Nezha getting poofed:
Celestial Realm on fire
With their basically last leader gone, the Celestial Realm would likely erupt into chaos, which could in and of itself lead to half of the things on this list.
Meeting Erlang
If Nezha disappeared, then the Celestial Realm might end up calling up old generals to help ease the chaos, such as Erlang Shen and Princess Iron Fan. Heck, this might happen even without Nezha disappearing into thin air, considering how much work he’d be swamped with.
Red Son getting some screen time
This might seem a bit arbitrary, but it builds off my last point, because if Iron Fan gets called up to do damage control on the Celestial Realm as a result of Nezha going missing, Red Son would probably take a more active role in the plot.
We’ve seen how he’s basically been recognized as a part of the Monkie Crew now, and we also know that he cares about Nezha, so it's not hard to imagine he'd want to help track down where the missing prince vanished to. Thus, this might be an opportunity for Red Son fans to get their win.
The overarching plot (as well as episodic plots) of season 5
With a Celestial Realm in chaos because nobody’s around to manage it, some demons, animals and artifacts which were being guarded in the Celestial Realm might get loose, requiring our heroes to get them under control before they can cause too much carnage.
This could offer a chance to at least semi-return to our original monster-of-the-week format, albeit with each episode being a bit more connected this time, and there still being an overarching plot (AKA, Operation: Where the Fuck is Nezha).
(And if you're wondering why I also mentioned Celestial animals, in the book, the Goldfish Demon was originally Guan Yin's pet goldfish, who had escaped it's pond and started causing havoc, and the Rhino King originally was a bull(?) that belonged to Lao Tzu, so animals escaping and causing havoc is all too possible)
Obligatory “The gamemaster would gain hold of the Big J’s power”
Probably the first reason that sprang to y’alls minds when I said Nezha was next on the chopping block, but I’ve saved it for last so that you read to the end (hehe I'm so mischievous). Yes, if Nezha gets kidnapped, then the one pulling all the strings behind this would effectively have the JE’s power in their possession.
This is, of course, assuming Nezha doesn’t manage to sneakily teleport it to someone before he gets captured, although it’s possible that wouldn’t keep the JE’s power from our dear gamemaster for very long.
Now, for my final statement, I’d like to turn your eyes to the last scene of the Monkie Crew and the Monkey King in the S4 special.
Here, Monkey King says that whatever our dear gamemaster has planned, the Monkie Crew can handle it. Together. It then cuts to a shot consisting of the entire Monkie Crew, before shifting to the final segment of the episode.
But
Look at this scene.
Look at who’s missing.
In this scene, we can see the entirety of the Monkie Crew. We can see the original 5 members, we can see Monkey King, we can see Macaque, even Red Son is effectively a part of the gang now. Everyone is here.
Everyone except Nezha.
Nezha is not yet recognized as a part of the Monkie Crew.
He’s still all on his own up in the Celestial Realm, trying to hold everything together. The only thing holding everything together.
The gamemaster knows the Monkie Crew can handle their schemes.
kinda wild to me that one of the most compelling aspects of both Chuuya and Kunikida's characters to me, that I never really see talked about, is how they're heavily set on a doomed crash course towards complete and utter destruction, and how I am so, so worried for them both.....