#formal pronouns

[absolutebl]

thai language question! what do tongthap and atom call each other in MLMU TH? it sounds like ‘nai’ or maybe ‘ngai’? it’s translated to both of their names several times on the YT subs. i’ve tried to look it up but i’m not sure i’m hearing it right 🙈

Thai pronoun: Nai

They are indeed using nai. Hold on I know I posted about that one at some point... AH HA here it is:

you want this section: (but I'll c&p it over here add to it at the bottom)

Nai & the Mafia 

So in 2022 Thai BLs seriously started moving setting outside of the school systems and thus added new pronouns (for us watchers) into the mix. KinnPorsche, Even Sun, and Unforgotten Night all use the pronoun nai (นาย) for you between men. Like many honorifics & pronouns, it’s derived from a minor title of nobility. In the 19th century it was declared the official courtesy title for adult males - regarded as a direct translation of “Mr”. 

It has several different uses today. 

As a title, it only appears before the real given name (not surname), in official/formal contexts, e.g. when writing down one’s name on an exam paper, job application, or government form. If used with a nickname, it implies a bit of irony (like a teacher calling out a misbehaving student). 

As a pronoun, it’s usually an informal second-person pronoun used with males of equal status. It’s a decidedly non-rude word, so it’ll be used among friends/classmates if they don’t feel close enough to use gu/mueng (or if a person just doesn’t use rude pronouns, like swear words there are people who don’t feel comfortable ever saying guu/mueng). 

Rao/nai as pronouns used to be the default mode of address on TV before gu/mueng became acceptable to broadcast in the 2010s. 

When used by females, nai is pretty much equivalent to males using ter with females - so an old fashioned but intimate and sweet, loving. 

On TV, the use of ter/nai is probably most often associated with straight dramas in the acquaintance phase of courting. 

Nai also has the meaning “boss” (similarly to the combined form เจ้านาย (jao nai/chao nai). If it’s being used as a pronoun in a more formal or deferential context (like organized crime), it is used in this sense. 

Usage number 2 & 6 are the ones we see in Thai BL. All that said I understand as a tourist in Thailand, you will hear nai but not all that often. It’s fine to use khun instead/back, but good to know to identify nai. 

Nai & My Love Mix Up

So My Love Mix Up is using #2.

With adult males, nai is actually often paired with chan. (I know, right, but it's what they use. See any of the mafia shows.)

But in this high school setting, Atom & Kongthap seem to be using pom or sometimes even tan. (I haven't touched on tan at all because I find it the most confusing pronoun.)

Atom & Half use guu/mueng. Atom use rao/name with Mudmee, and she does they same with him. Although I think she shifts to chan with Half when they get closer.

Kongthap doesn't seem to ever use informal. Even Half uses nai with him.

So I think the use of polite nai in this relationship is being dictated by Kongthap's character's reserved gentlemanly stiffness (much as in the original show). In other words, were it not for Kongthap's personality, this show in this setting (and with this pair) would be using guu/mueng. But because of the original IP and the extreme reserve of Ida in Kieta Hatsukoi (who also uses quite formal Japanese) we are seeing a linguistic characterization of one half of a couple carry through to the tenor of the whole relationship.

In other words, the use of nai was dictated by Kongthap's personality.

Frankly put, Kongthap would simply not use guu/mueng so they had to find some other way for these two to communicate. Rao/ter is too sweet and cute and old fashioned out the gate (these boys could graduate to it, I suppose, like in college or after).

Now they might have used khun instead of nai. If this were set in uni or the office that would have worked fine. Or even if this were a high school in Bangkok. But I'm not surprised they reached for nai.

In fact, since the announcement of the adaptation I was curious about how they were going to approach Kongthap's pronouns. I thought they might make Kongthap older to solve the issue with phi but they wanted to do the "going away to college together?" part of the plot, so yeah... nai is the solution.

This couple sounds a bit stiff and distanced from each other when speaking together as a result, but I understand why the script chose it.

Hope that explains.

(source)

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

The Quest Continues...

(part 1- part 2)

[coquelicoq]

what i like especially about the pronouns in the goblin emperor is that this language doesn't just have the T-V distinction (aka informal vs. formal second-person pronouns, in this case 'thou' vs. 'you'), it also has informal and formal first-person pronouns. having BOTH of these distinctions in the same language lets you fine-tune your tone by mixing and matching. with only one axis of formality, when you use informal pronouns, are you being familiar in an intimate way, or in an insolent or dismissive way? when you use formal pronouns, are you being polite or standoffish? you can't tell just from the pronouns; there's ambiguity. but a language where you can use a formal first-person pronoun in the same sentence as an informal second-person pronoun allows you to distance yourself (via the formal first) while also being familiar (via the informal second), thereby achieving the conversational tenor known to linguists as Fuck Thee Specifically.

[sulevinen]

listen guys, i’m finnish, you expect me to immediately know anyone’s gender? i grew up thinking A.A milne is a woman and tove jansson a man. even if i see a picture of said person i’ll still just be like damn tove sure was one handsome man. it’s not my fault finnish pronouns don’t do gender

[fatherramiro]

everyone talking about how ángel doesn't use the formal pronouns in spanish with people, or clémence and lucien don't use them in french, but no one talks about how ramiro, polite boy that he is, uses usted rather than tu to tell maura she's fucking insane in episode one

[cozylittleartblog]

trying out some new ideas

[ineffable-gallimaufry]

valvert is so funny because i'll be like "omg they're so in love here" and it's like. a normal ass screenshot but the motifs are what make it gay. like idk how to tell you that somehow javert slipping into vous instead of tu is somehow more gay of him since he has his weird authority complex thingy

[yandere-daydreams]

Ooh, about Uraume's gender: they are very explicitly never outright gendered in any way in the Japanese version (which is like. Basically the only canon one, in my eyes at least). The thing is that gendered and neutral language is like... Vastly different between literally every single language around the world. You know how "watashi" is constantly mis-translated (80% of the time in bad faith, I have to say) as being a strictly or heavily feminine pronouns (as in, the equivalent or "she" for the english language) all the time, when in reality it's actually just a softer, completely ungedered term used by woman AND man.

Oftentimes the original Japanese text pretty openly doesn't use gendered pronouns (specifically, they are at no point directly referred to as a *woman*, or "a she") or additives for Uraume. It's just... Very heavily and completely unnecessary, if not vaguely conservative, gendered (English, in this case) mistranslation that we can often see when discussing possibly trans (including, as always, non-binary) characters.

An example that I can think of is when in chapter 200, if I remember correctly: I don't remember the context, but some guy when he sees Uraume think of them as pretty/beautiful. That's it. Nothing else. Neither "pretty" nor "beautiful" are strictly feminine adjectives that can be used for women and women alone, and in the text itself there is no mention of femininity (or masculinity, for the matter), yet the official US translation decided to translate it as "SHE is pretty/beautiful".

In other translations, Uraume is also referred to as "he" at times too! That is exactly what has happened to a myriad of other (implied/explicit) trans characters too😭 and if THAT alone doesn't make them trans, being gendered and misgendered for no reason, idk what else will

Also, sorry for the English, it's not my first language

ooohhh okay okay i think i get it - i've only watched the subbed version, which alternates pretty consistently between he, she, they, and avoiding the whole pronoun thing altogether. i think most of my confusion came from those god awful reddit threads that are all titled something like 'undeniable PROOF that uraume jujutus kaisen is a WOMAN' and exist for literally every nonbinary anime character (opera of demon school fame i will never forget what they did to you), plus people just generally veering much more feminine for them in fics and stuff. i know understand the issue and will proceed with awareness. if i ever trip up again, assume i'm doing it deliberately to be mysterious and sexy or for general plot reasons.

[moerusai]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Man Suang is a movie to watch multiple times to unpack all the lies and twists and unreliable narratives, to appreciate the performances and choices that each actor makes to stay true to their character among such a big ensemble cast.

Even then, there are still nuances to catch with every rewatch (trust me, I'm on my fifth).

The lackluster English subtitle (partly due to the translator's negligence, but mostly due to the subtlety being lost in translation) certainly doesn't do the dialogues and the storyline justice.

So I think some of us, especially those from Western cultures, could do to sit down and contemplate a movie so rooted in a specific culture before sharing, frankly, insensible opinions on it.

[captainkirkk]

THE GOBLIN EMPEROR HAS DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FORMAL AND INFORMAL LANGUAGES? I have got to read it

YEAH, we/our for formal speak, I/you for informal, and thou/thee/thy for the most informal level. As a monolingual English speaking, I've never experienced those different pronoun levels before but they had me GASPING whenever a character unexpectedly dropped a level of formality

[yellowyarn]

the autistic urge to use overly formal language. wdym i'm being pretentious for saying "one", its so much faster then being like "somebody ... some people ... blah blah ... "

[downinsomanyfandoms]

Something that only makes sense in the context of “Dragon emperor’s quest” AU by @little-red-rhapsody. But what if in the progress of learning more about the Black Sun and its followers, eventually wbba’s agents and Tsubasa came across more info about the link between Nemesis and L-Drago but it’s all written in this ancient dragon clan’s language, so they have to study this language. And now every now and then Ryuuga sometimes walks onto a Tsubasa who’s struggling with the vowel between “e” and “ie” in his people old language in order to decrypt this plague and makes a very formal sentence into a not-even-nice-at-all sentence

Eventually, the people in Ryuuga’s circle start to speak in that language too. Thought they still don’t understand this very clipped and rude-sounding word Ryuuga uses for them (it’s an old word in his language that mean “possession”, but instead of “something that made into mine” it’s “something that forged into mine”)

[terrorgirls]

Realizing that part of why I like devil's minion is because armand switching from 'mr. molloy' to just 'daniel' in fics is the closest I can get in english to the rush of a character using 'tú' in place of 'usted'

[theflyingfeeling]

not my coworker (the one who likes BC and Lost Society) naming her new robot vacuum cleaner Roberto Violento 😭

[toxintouch]

so I found your post about what if the cult that raised Unnamed MC was one of Vere's old cults and I just had a few thoughts. a Deicide Vere flavored thoughts.

(also I apologize in advance because this was a lot longer than I planned on it being lmao)

what if MC was meant to eventually be sacrificed? like, in an attempt to bring Vere back or something along those lines. and the MC knew they were going to be sacrificed; it probably played a decent factor in why they ran.

so how would MC react to finding out that Vere was the very deity that they grew up worshipping, had grown up knowing that they would eventually be sacrificed to him in a vain attempt to bring him back?

maybe the Devout Follower part of them hadn't been snuffed out by the time they met Vere. maybe all the old habits they tried to leave behind started to come back after being face-to-face with their god. maybe, in a scenario where something, or someone, would have to be sacrificed in order to remove the collar, they would decide to be almost exactly what the cult raised them to be: a sacrifice, but to free him instead of bringing him back?

or, alternatively, the Devout Follower part of them had been completely snuffed out by the time they met Vere. how would they react to finding out that, after all that running, they somehow managed to end up within arms reach of the very thing they had been running from? what if they choose to run again because of it, just up and leaving Eridia, leaving Vere still chained to the Senobium?

and of course: how would Vere react? MC being an ex-follower of his is one thing, but them being an ex-follower and an eventual sacrifice? someone who once fervently worshipped him and was, at least at some point in their life, fully willing to lay down their life for him with no guarantee it would even lead to anything?

(or how would he react to the "MC just fucking leaves" scenario specifically? sure, Normal/Canon Vere would be going through it, especially if him and MC were close, but Deicide Vere? yeah I think that would be his breaking point)

I don't mind the length at all!! I'm the last person who would ever complain, many ppl will attest to my long DMs, etc. In fact, thank you for taking the time to write out your ask and tysm taking an interest in my beloved Deicide Flavored Vere! ˗ˋˏ ♡ ˎˊ˗ Sorry it took all day to respond, I wanted to be able to set aside proper time to read your message and consider! :3 You're picking up what I was thinking abt for sure with your sacrifice train of thought! Though I'll admit I was thinking more of MC being a less literal sacrifice - chosen as the conduit or the one who is supposed to find Vere and bring him back to his people now that he has disappeared.

Oh, but the literal sacrifice angle is juicy. And less convoluted/more clear than how I was trying to make the pieces fit, when I made that post? I let myself get stuck on the thought that I wanted MC to feel...fashioned for Vere, but I was thinking, perhaps, too logically & not cult-y enough, lol.

✦ Perhaps MC thought - when they were a child? - that they would be alive to meet Vere when he came back, but once they became older they realized that: no, they were to be a sacrifice to bring him back. They had to be ready to die for him. And they are only acting as Oracle in stead of their deity until they become strong enough to divine his return, which they (via the cult's teachings) believe will require them to sacrifice themself to him, to die...

But once they realize that their curse is a curse and not a god-given ability that's been granted to them... What else isn't true?

✦ Or perhaps they realize that to be a sacrifice is to die for their god at the same time they realize the truth about their hands, like you suggested, and they knew that they had to flee for the sake of their life and for the sake of finding freedom. They finally saw the gilded cage they had been kept in.

I definitely want to further explore the branching thoughts & paths of Sacrifice!Unnamed grappling with their Devotion vs Apostasy, but I don't want to keep you waiting too long for an answer so I will just resolve to make relevant posts as I consider more/write more! Until then:

✦ I think, even if they want to say that they have left all of their devotion to their god behind...old habits die hard. Things slip through the cracks. No matter how tightly you think you've closed the door, a sliver of a shadow can still find its way into the room where you thought you were safe and alone.

✦ In this MC's mind, they have always been Vere's.

✦ And Vere... [incoming POV shift to match the original Deicide fic]

His own autonomy is important to him, yes, but he's a hypocrite at heart. He's a glutton. He craves power. And he craves you.

He didn't put the collar on his own neck.

But you did.

You belong to him; you were made for him.

You devoted yourself to him, chained yourself willingly and he's not about to allow you to take all the oaths and prayers and the sweet, secret whispers you've given to him back.

(Oh, but he’d have been a kind god to you. Eventually. In that other time, that fictional reality where life is fair. You can earn his kindness, but never his mercy. It isn't in him to be merciful.)

You can't take your devotion back. He has a taste for it now. The only way he's letting it die is if he devours it whole.

And how had he not recognized the taste of himself already on you? How had he failed to notice, so distracted by your enticing promise, that he'd already laid claim? He's been woven into your life from the very start. He didn't even have to go to your town to demand you. You came to him.

(He'll reward them, still, the dregs of his followers – a quick death when he kills them for leaving their hand prints all over what they knew was his, for the suffering they inflicted on you that was his to mete out – suffering that was his to bless you will, as punishment or otherwise.)

And the depth of your devotion? That presses into him, something tender and cutting, unfamiliar or at least long forgotten. He'll reward you once he's satisfied with your repentance. Once you've renewed your faith in all the ways he sees fit.

(How shall be react to your willingness to die for him? It's been so long since he's had something to lose...)

✦ Deicide!Vere is such a mess of feelings. I think he would have a lot of trouble deciding what to do about Sacrifice!MC being willing (currently or previously) to die for him.

✦ The complexity of the matter is that: Were it anyone else, he wouldn't hesitate. He'd be pleased to throw them into harm's way if it meant being free. But Deicide!Vere has been lonely, searching for something - someone - like him for so long. I think he sees the potential of Sacrifice!MC as the one person outside of himself that he could really treasure. (AKA love) They're the "thing" he wanted most, before he lost his freedom. Being confronted with a situation where he may have to sacrifice one of his greatest desires for the other? Even he's not sure what he would do, if the situation arose as such. So he pushes that thought and that feeling away. My vision of Vere is that, though he is somewhat scheming, he is also impulsive and driven by hedonism. For regular Vere, I'm sure he pushes it away until it has to be an impulse decision. For Deicide Vere? This is the shittiest, no-win scenario. Low luck stat really comin' thru.

✦ Re: MC just fucking leaves scenario: I think you're right that something about that breaks him. The rejection. The idea that they've found him unworthy, not the other way around. But most of all: the abandonment. That they would leave him to suffer, presumably forever.

He's their god, yet it's them who's sentenced him to hell.

✦ Another thought I often consider: MC succeeds in removing his collar and even manages to survive doing it. But they don't chose to stay with him. He's been mistrusting of them, too cold and harsh and unwilling to see them as an equal (or at least: unwilling to admit that he does). And so, they lay the collar at his feet and leave. One last supplication, the final prayer from their lips being: "Goodbye, Vere." And the door is firmly shut, this time. He's free but he's back where he started. Searching. Alone. (He knows they're out there somewhere, but they've surpassed him in order to free him. If he hides in the shadow, they hide - they live in the places that match their golden veins, and he can't find them there.)

✦ He thought he could find them anywhere. But he's lost their scent....

I know my reply was a little bit messy, but hopefully I've answered in a way that was fun to read! and maybe even scratched some of the Deicide!Vere itch for anyone who, like me, is constantly infected. Ty again for joining me in my little brainrot corner!

p.s. lmk if i didn't answer/can answer anything more specific that u were hoping for an answer to, it's been kinda a week for my brain!

[the-spaced-out-ace]

using my japanese studies minor and 10+ years studying the language to translate pulp for fun. the target audience is myself.