#formal pronouns

[absolutebl]

thai language question! what do tongthap and atom call each other in MLMU TH? it sounds like ‘nai’ or maybe ‘ngai’? it’s translated to both of their names several times on the YT subs. i’ve tried to look it up but i’m not sure i’m hearing it right 🙈

Thai pronoun: Nai

They are indeed using nai. Hold on I know I posted about that one at some point... AH HA here it is:

you want this section: (but I'll c&p it over here add to it at the bottom)

Nai & the Mafia 

So in 2022 Thai BLs seriously started moving setting outside of the school systems and thus added new pronouns (for us watchers) into the mix. KinnPorsche, Even Sun, and Unforgotten Night all use the pronoun nai (นาย) for you between men. Like many honorifics & pronouns, it’s derived from a minor title of nobility. In the 19th century it was declared the official courtesy title for adult males - regarded as a direct translation of “Mr”. 

It has several different uses today. 

As a title, it only appears before the real given name (not surname), in official/formal contexts, e.g. when writing down one’s name on an exam paper, job application, or government form. If used with a nickname, it implies a bit of irony (like a teacher calling out a misbehaving student). 

As a pronoun, it’s usually an informal second-person pronoun used with males of equal status. It’s a decidedly non-rude word, so it’ll be used among friends/classmates if they don’t feel close enough to use gu/mueng (or if a person just doesn’t use rude pronouns, like swear words there are people who don’t feel comfortable ever saying guu/mueng). 

Rao/nai as pronouns used to be the default mode of address on TV before gu/mueng became acceptable to broadcast in the 2010s. 

When used by females, nai is pretty much equivalent to males using ter with females - so an old fashioned but intimate and sweet, loving. 

On TV, the use of ter/nai is probably most often associated with straight dramas in the acquaintance phase of courting. 

Nai also has the meaning “boss” (similarly to the combined form เจ้านาย (jao nai/chao nai). If it’s being used as a pronoun in a more formal or deferential context (like organized crime), it is used in this sense. 

Usage number 2 & 6 are the ones we see in Thai BL. All that said I understand as a tourist in Thailand, you will hear nai but not all that often. It’s fine to use khun instead/back, but good to know to identify nai. 

Nai & My Love Mix Up

So My Love Mix Up is using #2.

With adult males, nai is actually often paired with chan. (I know, right, but it's what they use. See any of the mafia shows.)

But in this high school setting, Atom & Kongthap seem to be using pom or sometimes even tan. (I haven't touched on tan at all because I find it the most confusing pronoun.)

Atom & Half use guu/mueng. Atom use rao/name with Mudmee, and she does they same with him. Although I think she shifts to chan with Half when they get closer.

Kongthap doesn't seem to ever use informal. Even Half uses nai with him.

So I think the use of polite nai in this relationship is being dictated by Kongthap's character's reserved gentlemanly stiffness (much as in the original show). In other words, were it not for Kongthap's personality, this show in this setting (and with this pair) would be using guu/mueng. But because of the original IP and the extreme reserve of Ida in Kieta Hatsukoi (who also uses quite formal Japanese) we are seeing a linguistic characterization of one half of a couple carry through to the tenor of the whole relationship.

In other words, the use of nai was dictated by Kongthap's personality.

Frankly put, Kongthap would simply not use guu/mueng so they had to find some other way for these two to communicate. Rao/ter is too sweet and cute and old fashioned out the gate (these boys could graduate to it, I suppose, like in college or after).

Now they might have used khun instead of nai. If this were set in uni or the office that would have worked fine. Or even if this were a high school in Bangkok. But I'm not surprised they reached for nai.

In fact, since the announcement of the adaptation I was curious about how they were going to approach Kongthap's pronouns. I thought they might make Kongthap older to solve the issue with phi but they wanted to do the "going away to college together?" part of the plot, so yeah... nai is the solution.

This couple sounds a bit stiff and distanced from each other when speaking together as a result, but I understand why the script chose it.

Hope that explains.

(source)

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

The Quest Continues...

(part 1- part 2)

[coquelicoq]

what i like especially about the pronouns in the goblin emperor is that this language doesn't just have the T-V distinction (aka informal vs. formal second-person pronouns, in this case 'thou' vs. 'you'), it also has informal and formal first-person pronouns. having BOTH of these distinctions in the same language lets you fine-tune your tone by mixing and matching. with only one axis of formality, when you use informal pronouns, are you being familiar in an intimate way, or in an insolent or dismissive way? when you use formal pronouns, are you being polite or standoffish? you can't tell just from the pronouns; there's ambiguity. but a language where you can use a formal first-person pronoun in the same sentence as an informal second-person pronoun allows you to distance yourself (via the formal first) while also being familiar (via the informal second), thereby achieving the conversational tenor known to linguists as Fuck Thee Specifically.

[sulevinen]

listen guys, i’m finnish, you expect me to immediately know anyone’s gender? i grew up thinking A.A milne is a woman and tove jansson a man. even if i see a picture of said person i’ll still just be like damn tove sure was one handsome man. it’s not my fault finnish pronouns don’t do gender

[fatherramiro]

everyone talking about how ángel doesn't use the formal pronouns in spanish with people, or clémence and lucien don't use them in french, but no one talks about how ramiro, polite boy that he is, uses usted rather than tu to tell maura she's fucking insane in episode one

[cozylittleartblog]

trying out some new ideas

[ineffable-gallimaufry]

valvert is so funny because i'll be like "omg they're so in love here" and it's like. a normal ass screenshot but the motifs are what make it gay. like idk how to tell you that somehow javert slipping into vous instead of tu is somehow more gay of him since he has his weird authority complex thingy

[yandere-daydreams]

Ooh, about Uraume's gender: they are very explicitly never outright gendered in any way in the Japanese version (which is like. Basically the only canon one, in my eyes at least). The thing is that gendered and neutral language is like... Vastly different between literally every single language around the world. You know how "watashi" is constantly mis-translated (80% of the time in bad faith, I have to say) as being a strictly or heavily feminine pronouns (as in, the equivalent or "she" for the english language) all the time, when in reality it's actually just a softer, completely ungedered term used by woman AND man.

Oftentimes the original Japanese text pretty openly doesn't use gendered pronouns (specifically, they are at no point directly referred to as a *woman*, or "a she") or additives for Uraume. It's just... Very heavily and completely unnecessary, if not vaguely conservative, gendered (English, in this case) mistranslation that we can often see when discussing possibly trans (including, as always, non-binary) characters.

An example that I can think of is when in chapter 200, if I remember correctly: I don't remember the context, but some guy when he sees Uraume think of them as pretty/beautiful. That's it. Nothing else. Neither "pretty" nor "beautiful" are strictly feminine adjectives that can be used for women and women alone, and in the text itself there is no mention of femininity (or masculinity, for the matter), yet the official US translation decided to translate it as "SHE is pretty/beautiful".

In other translations, Uraume is also referred to as "he" at times too! That is exactly what has happened to a myriad of other (implied/explicit) trans characters too😭 and if THAT alone doesn't make them trans, being gendered and misgendered for no reason, idk what else will

Also, sorry for the English, it's not my first language

ooohhh okay okay i think i get it - i've only watched the subbed version, which alternates pretty consistently between he, she, they, and avoiding the whole pronoun thing altogether. i think most of my confusion came from those god awful reddit threads that are all titled something like 'undeniable PROOF that uraume jujutus kaisen is a WOMAN' and exist for literally every nonbinary anime character (opera of demon school fame i will never forget what they did to you), plus people just generally veering much more feminine for them in fics and stuff. i know understand the issue and will proceed with awareness. if i ever trip up again, assume i'm doing it deliberately to be mysterious and sexy or for general plot reasons.

[moerusai]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Man Suang is a movie to watch multiple times to unpack all the lies and twists and unreliable narratives, to appreciate the performances and choices that each actor makes to stay true to their character among such a big ensemble cast.

Even then, there are still nuances to catch with every rewatch (trust me, I'm on my fifth).

The lackluster English subtitle (partly due to the translator's negligence, but mostly due to the subtlety being lost in translation) certainly doesn't do the dialogues and the storyline justice.

So I think some of us, especially those from Western cultures, could do to sit down and contemplate a movie so rooted in a specific culture before sharing, frankly, insensible opinions on it.

[captainkirkk]

THE GOBLIN EMPEROR HAS DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FORMAL AND INFORMAL LANGUAGES? I have got to read it

YEAH, we/our for formal speak, I/you for informal, and thou/thee/thy for the most informal level. As a monolingual English speaking, I've never experienced those different pronoun levels before but they had me GASPING whenever a character unexpectedly dropped a level of formality

[yellowyarn]

the autistic urge to use overly formal language. wdym i'm being pretentious for saying "one", its so much faster then being like "somebody ... some people ... blah blah ... "

[firstkanaphans]

Have you ever noticed thai actor co-workers that use very polite language with one another? Is that a sign of people not being as close? Or is that also a preference for people? That they use only very polite and respectful speech?

It’s mostly just preference, but age difference plays into it a lot as well. Any CP with an age gap is going to speak more politely with each other—at least in front of a camera—because it’s seen as incredibly rude to use informal language with someone older than you.

Using polite language doesn’t mean a pair isn’t as close. All of the pairs are going to use polite language with each other in interviews and at professional events by default. Any use of polite language between agemates outside of that is usually seen as cutesy and affectionate rather than distancing. I know this is a very random example, but Pisaeng from Be My Favorite used rude pronouns with Kawi before they started dating, but polite pronouns after. It’s soft and can show both love and respect.

As for your question about whether any CPs speak politely to each other, it’s tough to answer with any degree of certainty because in order to know, you’d have to watch variety shows or Instagram lives where they speak to each other more casually. I don’t follow enough CPs to be able to give you a definitive answer, but the only couple I’ve ever heard being discussed as abnormally polite is BounPrem. You can watch a clip of Tay talking about it here.

GL couples also seem to speak more politely in general, but most of the ones I follow have a pretty large age gap as well. In general, the larger the age gap, the more polite they’ll be. If there’s any couple in particular you’re curious about, just let me know and I can probably figure it out for you!

[downinsomanyfandoms]

Something that only makes sense in the context of “Dragon emperor’s quest” AU by @little-red-rhapsody. But what if in the progress of learning more about the Black Sun and its followers, eventually wbba’s agents and Tsubasa came across more info about the link between Nemesis and L-Drago but it’s all written in this ancient dragon clan’s language, so they have to study this language. And now every now and then Ryuuga sometimes walks onto a Tsubasa who’s struggling with the vowel between “e” and “ie” in his people old language in order to decrypt this plague and makes a very formal sentence into a not-even-nice-at-all sentence

Eventually, the people in Ryuuga’s circle start to speak in that language too. Thought they still don’t understand this very clipped and rude-sounding word Ryuuga uses for them (it’s an old word in his language that mean “possession”, but instead of “something that made into mine” it’s “something that forged into mine”)

[terrorgirls]

Realizing that part of why I like devil's minion is because armand switching from 'mr. molloy' to just 'daniel' in fics is the closest I can get in english to the rush of a character using 'tú' in place of 'usted'

[theflyingfeeling]

not my coworker (the one who likes BC and Lost Society) naming her new robot vacuum cleaner Roberto Violento 😭

[notkirstinetheartist]

Daughter of Dathomir--

I haven't watched Tales of the Empire yet, but the idea alone is giving me the Ster War parasites. Figured I should post this oldie of one of my darkside kiddos that I simply? Never did before??

It's name is Anya, it's terrible, it's Maul's foundling.