#flowey is a metaphor

[ophanstears]

i could explain why anyone that says "flowey cant feel (positive emotions) because he doesnt have a soul" is wrong but i dont feel like it. all you need to know that as a fellow trauma survivor he is my puppet to project onto whether he likes it or not

read the tags for more i suppose

[tvlandofficiall]

[profounddefendorcrusade-blog]

More on Clover's personality/mbti

this one's shorter don't worry

So, I mentioned before how Clover's creative when it comes to a lot of stuff (more than they are grounded), but there's also the fact they can sing (that's how they spare Insomnitot), dance (not as much into it as Bailador, but they CAN dance), make puns (Gun-hat and how they wanted to make puns in the stable in Wild East; idk the exact line) are into drawing (in Axis' office, you'll get a text saying "You wish you could draw that well..."), video games (with Mew Mew) and they even know how to play the harmonica (from the teaser trailer), plus tend to zone out ↓

They constantly kept choosing kindness over what's right.

Those are PERSONAL values they have, that these monsters deserve forgiveness. I really think the inferior Te clashes with dominant Fi in their case. Clover wants to do what's objectively right and just, but at same time their heart is just too pure. They were able to empathise with everyone and get in everyone's shoes (also affectionate but that's a bonus) ↓

there's no change in their kindness from the beginning to end

Like if they were actually in court I don't think they'd act like a "typical" judge and deliver 100% fair consequences. No, that Fi kindness would ALWAYS win, like it did with Star and Ceroba.

Clover's Fi was always there, but differentiates depending on the route. In pacifist, they decided that everyone, in spite of what they objectively did wrong, should be forgiven and understood. In neutral, they decide whose actions were moral enough to get spared, and whose weren't. In geno, instead of killing five monsters, they wipe out anyone THEY think is in their way.

If they were Ti dominant they'd naturally be a lot more rigid and have/show a lot less empathy, imo. The Te inferior is present in geno bc they think they are dealing with the events in the outside world objectively, but the Fi is still there, that's why they don't stop killing: THEY are the one who thinks it should be this way. Clover wants to influence/control the outer world (Te; they don't spend a lot of time dwelling on their actions, unlike Ti users, Clover's a lot more forceful) based on how they subjectively think things should be (still that Fi except that it manifests differently than in pacifist). Clover as a thinker would naturally be more detached from emotions, but they're... they're not. Even in the beginning.

Inferior Te present their Fi opinions like they are objective Te facts - I found this line and it instantly reminded me of geno Clover. "Yeah, I'm right for killing everyone, even though I'm really not"

Clover becomes like a "manager of justice" when in their dark side. You step outta line, you're dead - that's kinda the "structure" I think we're talking about here. Still values over how logically to assess a situation, though. Ceroba calls them naive.

This means that Clover WANTS.... no, ALWAYS WANTED to approach the "missing children" situation like they're in control, but in reality, they were without a clear plan of what to do and how to do it. That's inferior Te.

On the contrary, in the vengance route, they step into their inferior function and take control... but at what cost.

As for their Si, we have the fact Clover remembers their past home life, remembers cramped living conditions, their responsibilities at home, the TV channel they "watched"...

All this stuff from the past contributed to them leaving for the Underground (aka affected their future). I really really don't think Clover has auxiliary Se. That would mean they're usually present-focused. But no, this kid's thought process feels more complex to me. As explained, Se mostly focuses on what's in front of them; Clover, while in the present, can think of the past (their home life), which then influences their future (jumping down Mt. Ebott). And when in the present, they can think of the far future (dying during their mission and therefore never coming back home or becoming an adult, and in the end the potential freedom of monsterkind) and recall the past vividly (all those things their friends told them throughout their journey)

They don't suspect Flowey's malicious, either. And even if some part of them didnt trust Ceroba, Clover never showed it or said anything out loud (not that i remember), and even if they did, they still chose to spare Axis since he is the only thing left of Chujin. That's naive, maybe. But Clover's REALLY REALLY REALLY sweet.

Speaking of Flowey... remember how he would often encourage Clover and tell them to have more confidence and that they "don't have to be scared" and "lean on him for emotional support" and that they should "have some faith in themselves too"? Yeah, that's the aspect of their personality that they had to work on; becoming the leader they were always meant to be.

Their arc feels like going from a scared kid to a great hero. Aka stepping into that inferior Te... the right way.

[rustedleopard]

if ur still doing th asks. 12 and or 20 for ummmmm axis 🤖robor :)

12. What's a headcanon you have for this character?

Well, I already made a post a while back about how I headcanon that the highest that Axis can count to is 255, so let's get a bit more serious. I don't think Axis has a "true SOUL" in the sense that monsters and humans have SOULs. In Undertale, SOULs are treated as actual tangible objects that can be held and interacted with (like humans with their persistent SOULs and Boss Monster SOULs that can exist outside of death for a few moments and how Flowey/Asriel pulled the SOULs out of every monster in the Underground when he went god-mode). Axis, meanwhile, is made of metal and magic and computer code, which is detailed enough that it can emulate what it's like to have a SOUL very accurately, but there are limitations (like how he still has to follow his programming and kill Integrity no matter how reluctant he is). Like what Alphys established in Undertale, creating an artificial SOUL (with all the properties of a real SOUL) is impossible. That isn't to say that his life/experiences have less value because he doesn't have a "true SOUL," he still has thoughts and emotions and such, but if he was around a bunch of monsters when Flowey pulled their SOULs out of their body, he would've been stuck there. Conscious. Completely untouched.

(Though considering his speech if he's spared on Neutral, he'll get past it. It's just another thing that makes Axis, Axis.)

20. Which other character is the ideal best friend for this character, the amount of screentime they share doesn't matter?

Kanako and Axis, easily. Have you seen the little drawing that Kanako has of Axis in her room? Surely they must've met before. I bet that Chujin showed Axis off to Kanako to be like "Hey, check out this cool robot that your dad made." and she was like "Did you make a brother for me?!" And Chujin was trying to politely correct her by saying that "Axis is not the same as a child, he's my robot that I made to protect you, yadda yadda" but it's too late now, Chujin. She already has it in mind that Axis is her new sibling. She is already figuring out where to put stickers on his chassis. Axis loved the attention from Kanako as well, there's only one person out there who could "CAPTURE MY LIKENESS SO PERFECTLY."

... After Axis killed Integrity, Chujin cooked up a lie for Kanako about how Axis had to go to the Steamworks to be a guard robot there, since he was frightened of the idea of Axis's code going buggy and him attacking Kanako. "Oh, but don't worry, we can still visit him. Ah, when? Maybe next month, he's very busy." And on Axis's side, most of his memories of his domestic life with Chujin/the Snowdin Incident were sealed so there wouldn't be any risk of him spilling any potentially incriminating information. This included his interactions with Kanako. Then he was shipped off to the Steamworks under the pretense of "Whoops, accidentally stumbled across some of my robotics work that I had taken home and left in a corner of my house when I was still employed here. Here, take him. He's functional."

From this ask game

[cucumber-icepop]

"Chara really wasn't the greatest person."

[missholoska]

Asriel and Papyrus: What do you think about Floweys?

[losingchipmunk]

Sry for not posting anything for like a week- It's a work in progress because I couldn't get it done in time, but take this Flowey animation (don't be super harsh, flipaclip is hard and I've never done a full animation before)

[akanemnon]

I noticed Darkner Chara and Lesslo have a similarity in their color palettes, was that intentional or no? I know that Chara's palette was based on something else but maybe Lesslo was designed later and purposefully given similar colors-

Could make for some really nice metaphors, since from what I recall Chara's death played a pretty important part in Toriel and Asgore's divorce in Undertale, what with it indirectly causing Asgore to even start killing the human children, no?

So, Lesslo was designed WAY later than Chara's Dark World form. BUT the similarities between Lesslo and Chara are intentional. Remember that this Dark World was created THROUGH Flowey. As a wedding ring, Lesslo is a representation of Deltarune Agore and Toriel's divorce. He takes on traits of both Flowey (behavior) and Chara (appearance) because of that reason. The event of both Chara and Asriel's death and the resulting decision of Undertale Asgore to collect the human souls was what caused Toriel to leave him. And that carried over into this Dark World.

But not only that, Lesslo is also partially based on a satyr (not a devil). In Greek mythology a satyr is a creature with a human's body and a goat's legs. He is a mirror of what Deltarune Asgore left behind in the divorce: namely his children. Kris (a human) and Asriel (a goat like monster)

[askfallenroyalty]

I want to thank you all for reading. I hope you'll stick around. I'll be sure to post when the Visual Novel is released. You can keep up with development here:

(Comment copied from ComicFury version.)

Hey yeah so now it's official. Fallen Royalty lives on as a Visual Novel named New Royals. I'll still be posting updates here as well.

transcript below:

[id: Frisk, Asriel and Chara rest next to each other on a white background. The page is predominantly white. I've thought long and hard about this... I've decided to discontinue the comic. I want to reboot it as a visual novel. NEW ROYALS will be how this story will be continued, and some day, concluded. There's many reasons to why I've decided to follow this path going forward. I want to see these characters come to life and at their fullest. This comic started as an askblog on Tumblr. This version started as a redraw. But I want to start this story fresh and untied to the 6 year old original. The reboot will tell the same story but will have a stronger foundation and pacing. I want the premise of: “Everybody lives, see how the fallen children grow up” I feel it loses it’s impact with Asriel as a teenager. While I still feel Asriel growing up faster because Of his time as Flowey is a powerful narrative, I feel that story can be told without that metaphor. I would like to give the kids more time to be the same age and have more down time. The original (and redraw by extension) runs too quickly from plot point to plot point. Life changing event to life changing event. Character lose focus and screentime because the plot needs to move forward. It’s a problem that has put chapter 3 in a tough position to write. I feel a fresh start is necessary. And while I could just start the comic again, I would prefer it to be less confusing to explain. I already am making a fangame and know how to code decently. I would like to see what this can be like as a game, And realistically I have to chose one way to tell this story. So I chose the visual novel and the reboot. I hope you all can understand and stick with me as we start this journey over again One last time... text ends, showing the kids happy and drawn in color. id end.]

[carlyraejepsans]

Tell me something about Flowey and/or Asriel that’ll change my brain chemistry

the core of toriel's conflict as a character, past her values and idealism, is that she blames herself for Asriel's death. in her mind and subconscious it is her one great failure, one she spends the rest of her life scrambling for a second, third, seventh chance to put to right, in a metaphorical sense. the one broken thing she desperately needs to fix.

when asriel is brought back as flowey, he is soulless and lonely and grieving and terrified. he blames himself for his and chara's deaths. he sees himself as fundamentally broken. the one thing he needs more than anything, traumatized child that he is, first from asgore, then from his mother, is for someone to fix him.

and toriel fails.

[springbloggy]

Ralsei is a large metaphor for Deltarune (and other games or franchises that are sequels/spinoffs). He is a being that heavily resembles Asriel and has potential ties to Flowey as well, yet the game mostly ignores this resemblance so we can view him as his own character. Much like how Deltarune is tied to Undertale, yet is it's own experience and game. I have a feeling future chapters will emphasize Ralsei becoming intentionally less Asriel-like in order to drive home the importance of not letting your view of the source material overshadow it's sequel.

[sukifoof]

it's so poetic that asriel died with chara, and not in a literal sense but more of a metaphorical sense... flowey feels that he can never be asriel again because that part of him died when chara died. he can never be who he was and he's come "back" in the shape of something that distinctly reminds him of his trauma. there's so many reasons he told us to view flowey as separate from asriel but the thing that always gets me is that asriel is just a reminder of who he was and what he can never get back. it's fascinating that when we see "asriel" again, all he wants is to reset everything. to go back to a life where he felt safe and loved and wanted.

"flowey" is someone who feels he can never return to loving others and being loved because of his trauma, and becoming "asriel" again when shown that he is worthy of being loved and saved despite everything is so touching to me. i think flowey completely lost hope of any kind of future and frisk allows him to see that there are things beyond his past. flowey never allowing himself to truly live because chara is gone vs being shown that he's allowed to live despite chara's death is such a perfect way to write grief. there's always that feeling of "am i really allowed to be here if they aren't?" that comes with the type of grief flowey is going through.

it's much easier for him to constantly try to go back than to accept the world he's in. trying to be asriel again is much easier than it is to accept himself as flowey. it's easier to think of when you were younger and happy than learn to live with grief and who you are now. ultimately it's much better for him to be able to live as flowey and make new relationships as who he is now than to wallow in grief and anger. i think a lot about him being able to find some happiness and hope as flowey... something something to be loved is to be changed

[thegrinningkitten]

Quick re:swap question! How can Frisk and Chara share a body if Frisk's soul was in the core and is now absorbed by monster kid? Shouldn't Frisk have been in the core or maybe with monster kid now? How does that work?

Undertale is kinda vague with where a person's consciousness is "stored". Like, human and monster souls do seem to contain the owners' minds to a point (as evidenced by Flowey/Asriel battles in the various endings), but Flowey is a perfectly conscious person as well, despite having no soul. (And Asriel mentions some people above ground having no souls, and whether to take this metaphorically or not is up to you, honestly.)

So I'm playing hard and loose with the concept here.

The general idea is, for a human to get to the Underground, they fall through the magical barrier at the entrance. (I go with the idea that it's the catalyst for them unlocking their magical powers, like their ability to save and load.) This, while not physically significant, is very high-energy on a magical level. (It's why in Re:Swap Temmie immediately knows when a new human has fallen.)

With that wave of energy Frisk's consciousness —which is only semi-tethered to their soul because it's not completely theirs at this point — basically rubber-bands to Chara's soul.

Why didn't it do that to any of the humans before Chara? Chara's soul is the first red-colored one — the first one that's fully "compatible", so to speak.

[stainedglassthreads]

I do think both Flowey and Chara can reflect 'the player', but they act very differently, and would reflect very different types of players.

Flowey wants to learn everything, to be entertained. Chara wants to have all the high scores, to win. Flowey explores every single route, eventually growing bored and seeing the world as numbers. Chara grinds, pretends at pure apathy and distance very well, and doesn't see a point to replaying.

When Chara criticizes a player of 'perverted sentimentality', they'd probably level the same criticism at Flowey. And from some of Flowey's dialogue, it sounds like they may have hated the power of Reset even in life.

Alternatively, I think they might be in conversation with the player in slightly different ways: Chara at the end of No Mercy is the means by which the game says 'look what you've done'. Flowey in every route is the means by which the game says 'look what you ARE'.

(Chara may represent the sort of player who may choose the No Mercy route, but ultimately Flowey is the main player-metaphor and Chara only truly appears to cast judgement, so I'm once again thinking it feels? A little weird? To place Flowey Mannerisms on them?)

[coolingrosa]

i have a little question. Would you rather reffer to Ink as a ''soulless being" or 'person who lacks a soul"? (saw this discussion a while ago and apparently there's a different with both terms)

This is weirdly timed due to me working on a video talking about what Ink’s soulless identity could be metaphors for…nice job anon /gen

I have a small section about this in my video, but I won’t mind adding it here and expanding on it. The only reference we have of a monster who is soulless is Flowey, but what most people tend to forget about Flowey is that the reason he is who is he is due to the determination inside him as well. Unlike Ink who is capable of feeling genuine emotions, even if they are technically artificial, Flowey feels nothing but animal instincts and a drive to survive. I see some people say Flowey CAN feel some emotions, and while I want to agree with that, it’s clear this is through an animalistic way. Flowey “feels’ fear when his life is threatened. He cries when the last bits of his good memories, the memories his determination latched onto, are brought up due to the influence they have over his remains. He doesn’t truly feel things like love or empathy, so he fits the criteria of a ‘soulless being’ a lot better.

Where the problem had risen in the fandom is people using their knowledge of how Flowey acts for a baseline of what Ink is like- using terms like “soulless being” to describe him and making him cruel and overly rude. It’s confirmed that Ink is a selfish prick, but it’s also confirmed he CAN feel love, and feels love for his dads. He can also mourn and feel genuine connections to people due to his vials and the lack of determination serving as metaphoric survival instincts. He CAN love, and he can cry over losing someone. That requires empathy and compassion- and due to his vials serving as his soul, he’s still a person.

Flowey is more of a vengeance spirit in a way- haunting the narrative until Frisk holds him through his turmoil and reveals the soul of Asriel. Though it’s hinted he will become Flowey again, I like to think that Asriel REALLY means that his soul can move on, and Flowey will be all that remains, which will be an empty flower. Without his soul and lasting strings, nothing can hold Flowey together. That’s not exactly the means of a person- just fragments stitched together by determination and past memories.

Ink is a person- even if everyone and himself doubt it. He has the capability of care and love and has a drive that isn’t just connected to survival. He’s able to maintain positive connections and make enemies at the same time, upholding both in a way that’s reminiscent to others. Even without his soul, his vials are his support- almost like how people get mechanical legs after losing one. They are foreign and not in the shape of a soul at all, but they were given to him as a replacement and to keep him going. They will never be on the same par of an original soul, but they hold him together anyways. That’s the structure of a person who just seems to have a disability- not a completely separate being.

TLDR: I think the term a person without a soul fits- however, basing Ink off of the one other soulless character we know of (even though he isn’t a good comparison due to the immense differences between them and their situations) is what drove so much of his mischaracterization throughout the years, and we need to remember Ink had a artificial soul in a way and shouldn’t be considered a completely soulless and empty person when he has things to support him.

[cheesycatz]

I have reached 160k words on the fic. Considering that three out of the five pieces of Wormton fanart I've received involve unmasked Wormton interacting with Blue in some positive/lighthearted way, I'm sure you will all be happy to hear that they are completely separated and Wormton's mental state is even worse! It's okay, though, because he found a new androgynous blue person to befriend, one who can actually help him with his original plan to make Cyber City his again. Wait, no, put the soul slurping silly straw AWAY—

I'll probably change some stuff, but here's my current concept of how Wormton would fit into Chapter 2.

Spamton first detects the Heroes of Light when they fall down in front of his burrow. His soul-sensing ability is immediately overwhelmed by the sheer presence of the red SOUL, infinitely more powerful than any darkner soul he's even encountered, and somehow still infinitely brighter than the souls of the monster lightners. He sees it as an answer to his prayers, a way to give him the power to make this city his. He is cautious, though, as a powerful soul reflects a powerful owner. He stalks Kris, learning their name as he tries to get them alone. Between NPCs (and the addisons he is avoiding like his life depends on it), battles, and Noelle, it takes a while for him to find the opportunity. But, as an ambush predator, he is very patient. He takes his disguise with him, hoping to use it to gain Kris's trust. Like Flowey in Undertale, the player may catch a glimpse of Spamton on the walls or roofs, disappearing into the darkness if they turn back.

Normal fight:

Disguised Spamton corners Kris in the same alleyway, popping out of the dumpster. He pretends he's never seen Kris as he requests to see the SOUL, jumping out of the dumpster on all fours before standing up. He fights them not with the intention to kill, but to keep them trapped in a battle so he can prattle on about his “deal.” Spamton speaks about it in the vaguest terms possible, promising riches, power, to be BIG, and whatever other word-slop comes out of his mouth. He also picks up on how Kris's stiff movements remind him of his disguised self—as in, a puppet being pulled around by metaphorical strings. He wonders out loud if Kris's body even matches the SOUL they carry, and perhaps that was just enough for Kris to genuinely consider his offer. Once the player accepts Spamton's extremely dubious deal, he tells Kris to come to the Trash Zone alone and scampers offscreen, soon removing his costume and resuming his stalking.

Shop?

If the player remembers to go back to the Trash Zone (genuinely every letsplayer I've watched forgets Spamton even exists if they're not trying to do the secret boss, so emphasis on the “remembers”), Spamton doesn't actually let them in. His nest only had one exit, and Susie and Ralsei were standing in front of it and would definitely check it if Kris never came out. Spamton isn't confident in his ability to fight them, so he unfortunately has to keep waiting.

Spamton continues to stalk the Heroes through the mansion, easily concealed by its high ceilings. He eventually finds the basement and sees it as the perfect place to lure Kris. He leaves his disguise on the floor and smashes whatever dingy lights remained in the basement, enveloping it in darkness. He leaves and whispers to Kris between room transitions, disappearing where the player, and Kris by extension, cannot look before the other party members appear. Eventually, he retreats back to the basement, waiting for Kris to enter. Because Spamton never previously broke into the basement, it doesn't have the security forcefield, heinous tea cup ride, or encryption wall. The player can only hear scratching as Spamton walks across the ceiling in the darkness, Kris's sword being the only source of light. He tells them to find him as a distraction. Once the player finds the empty husk of his disguise, he lunges at them while laughing. Kris's armor prevents his claws from puncturing their skin, but they are still immediately restrained. His proboscis is shown for the first time as he attempts to start feeding on the SOUL, but he is knocked over by Susie's Rude Buster. Sick of waiting, Spamton finally attacks.

Secret Boss Fight

In order to defeat Spamton mercifully, the player needs to destroy his disguise to get him to focus on something other than killing the Heroes. Any magic spells used during the fight by Ralsei or Susie produce light, which makes Spamton's attacks easier to see, but also makes him angry and causes his damage to increase. All three Heroes can act to damage Spamton's disguise, but Spamton doesn't initially notice it. Throughout the fight, he continues to speak about the future for Cyber City he plans, dumping some lore about what happened to his species, fondly describing their parasitic larvae, and making it clear how much he despises the antiviruses. He purposefully uses clips he gathered of the other lightners and the Heroes, which the player can hear as his dialogue soundbyte switching to different characters. Spamton is meant for ambush hunting, not endurance, so he begins to be worn out from having to chase after the Heroes. As he slows down, he finally notices his destroyed disguise, and panics. He can't safely get out of the mansion without it, and is terrified of being discovered. He's exhausted enough for Ralsei's pacify spell to finally work. Spamton gains enough clarity to start feeling remorseful, but he passes out before anyone can make amends. He's still alive, but his gray eyes and lack of visible breathing makes him appear dead. The player can raid his destroyed disguise to obtain a Shadow Crystal and the AppleFlower item (exact same abilities as DealMakers). Maybe the fact that Spamton believes he can't survive without the disguise he has to wear kind of correlates with how Kris can't survive without the SOUL they don't want, but it's a bit of a stretch. I think the fact that Spamton could tell that the SOUL didn't belong to Kris would have shook them a little bit, but, yeah, most of the symbolism from the original NEO fight is kind of lost here.

Violent Normal Route:

The player can still fight unmasked Spamton in the basement even if they attack him during his first fight. His exoskeleton is strong enough that he doesn't get seriously injured, just angrier. The player obtains the WormScarf (exact same abilities as PuppetScarf) instead.

Weird Route:

Spamton still assists the player by telling them how many darkners are left. Idk if he'd have the thorn ring, as I don't know why canon Spamton was carrying around a torture device in the first place. He takes over the mansion, but tries to stop Kris once he learns that destroying the fountain will destroy the city he just got control over. He may have high defense, but he's extremely weak to the cold in general and is killed the moment Noelle hits him.

I'll probably rewatch a chapter 2 playthrough to look at the dialogue and events. Maybe the Jerma playthrough? I've only seen the clips from that “starring Jerma985 as Spamton G. Spamton” video I watched like four times and not the rest.