#fence meta

[iffeelscouldkill]

On Kings Row's fencing scholarship

Thinking about this AU and what might have happened if Nicholas had never taken up the fencing scholarship at Kings Row that year made me wonder: who was the recipient of the fencing scholarship last year?

I mean, when Harvard is showing Nicholas to his dorm room he says this:

"We" here could refer to Kings Row as a whole, but that seems bizarre, that there would be only one scholarship student of any kind per year. Besides, "you won't feel out of place" suggests that Nicholas would be in good company as a scholarship student among the fencers (not just in the school). (One scholarship student per year among the whole school would definitely lead to feeling out of place).

But since we know that the fencing scholarship student has to make the team, who could it have been last year?

Aiden clearly has enough money that he wouldn't need a scholarship. Harvard seems well-off too, and if he were also a scholarship student, that would definitely be relevant to bring up in a conversation like this. Kally we know is a scholarship student, but he's an academic scholar, not a fencing scholar. And if it were Tanner, again, you'd think that would come up - since everyone made a big deal about Nicholas and Kally being "the two scholarship students", if Tanner were a scholarship student, that would have been mentioned.

But that doesn't leave any more team slots for a fencing scholar. So, was the scholarship not awarded to anyone? Or maybe the fencing scholar didn't make the team (ouch ><)?

Dwelling on this made me think about how tough it is to require the scholarship recipient to make the team in order to keep their scholarship. I mean, it does make sense - academic scholars have to demonstrate academic excellence; sports scholars need to demonstrate sporting excellence. And how do you demonstrate excellence? By making the cut for the team.

But at least good academic performance is only dependent on you. Getting good grades doesn't require someone else to get bad grades, and if another person gets really good grades, that doesn't make your good grades go away. It's not a zero-sum game.

Whereas there are only four slots available on the fencing team, and that means that you as a fencing scholarship recipient only need to be outperformed by four other students to lose your slot. In a school where most of the other students will be older and more experienced than you, that's a pretty harsh requirement.

(It also makes me wonder if you need to make the cut for the team every year in order to keep the scholarship. Surely not, right? But then, as an academic scholar, if your grades slip, you're in danger, so... the same applies to a hypothetical fencing scholar...

But then that means that between freshmen, sophomores, juniors, and seniors... you would need a fencing scholar to take up every single slot on the team.

How does this scholarship work??? someone give me the answers)

[ionlydrinkhotwater]

So I've been thinking about FENCE and the Nichoji and Jesse stuff is interesting yes but I am interested in the narrative threads that have been left to be picked up in the next volume and have been present since the first volume:

SPOILERS FOR VOL 5

1. What is going to become of that offer made to Seiji by Halverton? As sweet as things were with Seiji and his teammates in the last volume, it's not as if Seijis frustration with his team's lack of skill compared to the other schools aren't bothering him and that clip of his bout with Jesse will only remind him that hes on a deadline and based on the rankings all of the Kings Row team (with the exception of Seiji who is ranked 1st) are 5th and lower with Aiden being 5th and Nich at the very bottom. Nich asks Seiji to wait for him to get better BUT they are interrupted before Seiji can respond or make any sort of promise. How much drama will come from Nich learning that Seiji may be considering Halverton? What seems to be hinted at is that Jesse chose winning over friends(or more) and Seiji in his desire to beat Jesse might be confronted with the same choice. Which choice he makes is a complicated one. In choosing KR over Exton was his choice to defy and challenge Jesse but ultimately his goal is to BEAT Jesse at Fencing and he may not even get an opportunity with his current team. Perhaps for Seiji he may need to reevaluate whether beating Jesse by NOT making the same sacrifices Jesse made is more of a victory even if it's harder.

2. Why Nichs old neighborhood? That's where the Fence camp is taking place, specifically the nice part of town but why even have the setting take place there at all if it won't be used for any narrative purpose? Will someone from Nichs past show up? Or Will Nich be inclined in some way to visit his old Town? Maybe he will visit his old Fencing ground the San Remo Ballroom?

3. Also we can't discount the mirroring that is happening from the first volume where Jesse's idiot cousin Kyle showed up and Nich being way out of his league. In that first volume Kyle is talking to members of Lowther Hall, and they mention his cousin who competed in world's (Jesse) so Kyle and his teammates were established characters right from the start. He provides insight into the relationship between Jesse and Seiji though his version paints Seiji as the bad guy so his editorials should be taken with a grain of salt however his reappearance might be more significant than just being the info guy, he seems like a Jesse fanboy but what could make him change his tune on that? Is he meant to always be at odds with Nich or will he be the first family member Nich might beat friendship into sports Manga style?

4. The significance of Nich learning the flick is interesting it's more about guile than training. In some ways if Nich can utilize the flick with his speed while getting used to the rules and restrictions he may be able to compensate for his lack of formal training and climb the ranks, this might help him finally beat Emmet and maybe prove a challenge to Kyle. Also it parallels Seijis issue, he is fencing with all his might, Aiden correctly points out that showing all your cards during practice will only make your opponents more prepared to destroy you when it counts. Seiji says "I don't need tricks to win I do it with skill" the meta fencing if you will is between tricks vs skill, literally the next page after Seiji says this is Nich using the flick. That's not to say that tricks and skill are mutually exclusive but it's a neat narrative thread and it may be something Seiji can learn from his underdog team.

[iffeelscouldkill]

I had some Meta Thoughts along these very lines myself - it feels like there is a missing piece here re: Aiden's characterisation that, now that we're at the state finals, I suppose we'll never get. Because the only reason Kings Row was able to have two reserves is because Aiden never showed up to matches - and so the whole team (and Nick & Eugene's presence in it) is geared around his lack of attendance.

But this never comes to a head. It's talked about, but Sally just says "Yes, why doesn't he?" when the question of why Aiden doesn't give fencing his all comes up at the Halverton camp. (As the coach, shouldn't she be much more concerned about that???) And it seemed like this should have been leading towards a flashpoint - where Aiden was forced to prove his commitment to keep his spot on the team, given that he wasn't doing anything to earn it beyond his initial victories in the team try-outs. Otherwise he might have lost that spot to one of the two reserves who actually showed up, improved, put in the work, and demonstrated that they cared. But instead, we get vague allusions to Aiden being strategic without anything to back it up. And Aiden's spot on the team in the state finals is just guaranteed despite his entirely lacklustre attitude.

It frustrates me not just from a Eugene point of view but from the POV of Aiden's character arc, which doesn't get to be properly fleshed-out. He doesn't get to improve, there are just no consequences to his actions, and that's it. While it's possible we'll get some allusions to this during the state finals, the time that there could have been repercussions has past (unless Aiden somehow flakes out during the finals, and idk, Eugene is drafted in? But I don't think that would be within the rules? Nicholas would just be called up as the reserve). And nothing of note has happened, so... I guess this character thread is going nowhere after all.

I have to say, Eugene working so hard to get on the team only to be booted last minute makes Aiden's flippant behavior about Fencing even more frustrating

I understand his whole deal, I promise, I do. I understand the appeal of characters like him. But to see a boy who puts no effort in and doesn't appear to care about fencing beyond Harvard be saved a spot on a team he cannot be bothered to show up for half the time while Eugene, who has been shown working tirelessly since he was seven toward the goal of getting on the team, was told there's not a place for him on it is incredibly frustrating. I don't care about Aiden's internal arc when he hasn't come far enough on it to make it a satisfying payoff to remain on the team when we learn we can only have 4 members.

Really, booting Aiden would have been a better narrative choice because it could have been him stinging as Bobby says they all wish they were fencing--and that would have meant something in a way it didn't to Eugene because Aiden could have realized that fuck, Bobby's right. They all wish they were fencing. Including him. We could have seen some actual growth from him in a heart-pinching but satisfying way. Instead, we fall into the same old pattern. Aiden's spot on the team is unquestioned despite his ambivalence, and Eugene's 10+ years of hard work is answered with a slap in the face

[twentyfivemiceinatrenchcoat]

and if i said suguru’s relationship with weakness (’the preciousness of the weak, the ugliness of the weak’) was born out of his feelings towards his mother …

[adh-d2]

I am so tired of autistic characters being used to teach other characters to expand their point of view, so that they can mature and live happily ever after. I'm so tired of them being given enough screen time to model the best of their personality traits, their coping strategies and eccentricities; just so that other characters can adopt the pieces they like. Then, once all the good meat's been picked from the bone, they die.

Tech earned his happy ending too, and it hurts that he was the only member of the squad not to get one.

[utilitycaster]

This is probably something that will be obvious to many but: writing about fictional works but not creating fanfiction/fanon to me tends to fall into four categories, and I think it's really important to get how they intersect before getting weird about other people's posts.

Opinion. Eg: I like relationships based in mutual understanding. This is my opinion. It is correct for me. Might not be correct for you! Note that this is pure opinion, with no argument.

Interpretation: Eg: Beau and Yasha's relationship shows a great deal of understanding in each other's shared experiences, including abusive parents; a shared tendency to believe, at least earlier on, that things will go badly and that they don't deserve better; and difficulty expressing their feelings verbally but letting out frustrations through fighting.

Fact/Evidence: Beau says she is unused to things turning out good, and Yasha believes herself to be, as she says, very unlucky or cursed. Her letter covers that she expresses herself through fighting.

Conclusion: I like Beauyasha.

Argument is Opinion + Interpretation; a valid argument is Opinion + Interpretation + Evidence. Meta can include opinion but ultimately is Interpretation and good meta is Interpretation + Evidence. It's fine to post just an opinion, but if you want to change minds, you need an argument, and if you want to be able to hold your own against a counterargument it better be valid.

You can have the same interpretation and facts and different opinions and therefore different conclusions. Someone else could say "I like messy relationships (opinion) and so Beau and Yasha's shared understanding (interpretation, same as mine) is not interesting to me (conclusion)." You can also have a different interpretation from the same facts, either because you are including a different set of facts on a topic or because there is ambiguity and room for different lenses.

If your goal is to change someone's mind - and to be honest mine usually isn't - you are unlikely to change their opinions. Eg, If someone says "I don't like Beauyasha because I prefer messier relationships" I'm not going to convince them on the grounds of "you shouldn't like messier relationships." I need to either put forward an interpretation that supports a messier relationship, or, more realistically, say "understandable, have a nice day" and move on with my life.

That last bit is important - a lot of people also argue on the basis of "well obviously this interpretation is the only one, so you should draw the same opinions from it." and that's likely to fail; either the person disagreeing with you overall does agree on the interpretation but has different opinions (as in the above example), or they have a different interpretation (eg: Beau and Yasha have attacked each other repeatedly) and that is the basis of their opinion (I don't like that). You need to figure out which is going on and address that should you wish to change their mind. And again, I think you should ask why you want to change their mind.

The last point is that all of the above is valid given the text and reflect different perspectives. But if someone were to say "I don't like Beauyasha because Beau turned into a porcupine and moved to France, and I don't like long-distance relationships" the invalid portion is that this literally did not happen (fact leading to interpretation). If someone can correctly dispute the facts of your interpretation (as they stand at the time, obviously; no one is penalized for not being precognitive) then you are fucked, argument-wise. If I point out that Beau did not turn into a porcupine nor move to France, this person's argument falls apart. They can still dislike the relationship, but if they want to justify it with an argument they better find a new interpretation, and fast.

Before I move into the end I will note that you can also just not vibe with something, and that's purely in the realm of opinion + conclusion, a la "this rubs me the wrong way" or "I find this annoying" or "it's cute" and all of those are valid to hold for yourself, and also inaccessible to anyone else

The conclusions I draw from all of the above are first, making posts that are only your opinion/conclusion is always fine - say what you want - but treating it as an argument is a waste of time, and so anything of the order of "how could you not like xyz (unspoken: because I did)" is pointless because my answer is going to be "easily, and with confidence." Secondly, I think it's valuable to look at posts, even those with arguments, as primarily interpretation rather than opinion. Putting forth a separate interpretation is a disagreement, but it's not a disagreement necessarily directed at you; it's disagreeing with you but the parallel play option is available! You do not need to go out trying to convert all to your same mindset. I think a healthy fandom ecosystem has multiple interpretations and opinions and respectful disagreement; the positive version of "let people like/dislike things" (ie, they can like it or dislike it and if you're normal, your enjoyment is not contingent on theirs). Thirdly, get your facts straight or suffer the consequences. And finally, if you are trying to make an argument for an ongoing work and do so over time, your opinion must be fairly consistent even as the interpretation naturally evolves otherwise it becomes clear that you are arguing in favor of a foregone conclusion (often via moving the goalposts). If you say "I like characters who are willing to make painful and difficult choices, and Blorbo always takes the easy way out, so I don't like them" and Blorbo develops into a character who is able to make painful and difficult choices, if you start critiquing Blorbo now on the basis those choices that's still fair but you better come very correct, and it might be wiser to just say "I don't fuck with Blorbo, if you do that's great but I don't."

[crepesuzette2023]

The prompt/ideas I settled on for my Secret Santa gift couldn't be more clear. Yet here I am, six pages of handwritten notes into quote unquote research, with possibly two books lined up for at least a careful skim (ooh that sounds dirty!), and showing early symptoms of an obsession.

Ideally, all of this will work like a flambé, with all the ideas and factoids and anecdotes and possibly unrelated quotes going up in the flames of spontaneous inspiration, leaving behind exactly the right hint of flavor—

Ideally.

On the other hand, fucking this up would sort of be...appropriate?

Wish me luck, folks.

(Refills culinary torch)

[fi3stazo]

Thinking about my dmk arc

[its-ezraaa]

Reworked character sheets for my Dungeons and Dragons AU! The Kings Row boys are playing "Swords and Serpents" with Seiji as the long-suffering Dungeon Master. Who do you want to see next?

[chaos--mode]

working on a handful of new verses because i will not rest until ren exists in absolutely every single scenario possible. kthnx

[snakeliciousbaby]

They know exactly what we're here for.

[distort-opia]

So you are telling me Batman took in Joker's kid( potentially in the same universe, Ace too); in the cave he has Joker's and his mother's " memorabilia", in a display that would make Freud vibrate out of his grave; 🤔 kay.

Them being intertwined is to be expected, but they really do keep on connecting this twisted, shared parenthood to them, and their children. Jason is the biggest example.

Hey at least in that universe the most hated Robin wouldn't be poor Tim 😭😭😭

Hah. I didn't even mention the nightmare that is Batman: Journey Into Knight:

...Yeah, Joker basically keeps Bruce drugged to the gills in Arkham and brainwashes him for months into thinking he's a father figure. (If I have to live with the knowledge of the last issues of this comic, so now do you.) It really does not get any more Freudian than this.

But yeah, they keep having children and then those children end up... "appropriated" by the other. Joker gets offspring? Batman raises them (Joker's daughter in The Dark Prince Charming, apparently Joker's son in New Golden Age). Batman adopts Robins? Joker either kills (Jason in DitF) or brainwashes them into being his sidekick (Tim in Batman Beyond, Dick in Joker War). Hell as you point out, even Ace technically used to be Joker's dog =))

And oof, we'll have to see what they do with... see, I wanna say Milton because that's the name they gave Joker's son in Arkham Asylum: Madness, but it'll probably be different.

[hasarjunadoneanythingwrong]

Any thoughts on Siegfried reminding Karna of Arjuna in the Apocrypha manga?

Guy who really wants to recreate his epic rivalry with fated rival meeting anyone: hmmm, getting a lot of ‘fated rival’ vibes off of you…maybe we should fight over it…

[cjbolan]

The Instagram Meta AI controversy makes me SO thankful I have multiple platforms for my art

(and thankful that I’m not a full time artist. Otherwise my life is completely screwed by AI.)

[dreadgrace-a]

actually, that ship meme + talking to garrett has me thinking about post canon Lark and how important it is to her development that I point out she does not have her Urges nerfed or removed. She will live with them for life (and i'm purposely leaving it ambiguous as to whether or not she can die). She doesn't have Jergal pulling her from the fugue plane and yanking her from one divine cage to another, nor would she accept that.

[homeless202]

Eunyung Baek as 5/7 of the deadly sins

SLOTH

ENVY

GREED

GLUTTONY

WRATH