#erast our

[fearlessinred]

Eras Tour - August 7, 2023 | Los Angeles, California

[taraxippos]

Absolutely death gripped clenched trying not to comment on reductive posts on ancient greek homosexual relationships

[renlyslittlerose]

Where the Sky Loves the Sea Rating: E Summary:

Anakin grinned and tugged Obi-Wan's hair, once again forcing him to raise his head and look at him. "You want to roleplay erastes and eromenos?" Obi-Wan's cheeks turned an even darker shade of red, but he didn't look away in shame. "I don't want to roleplay as such. I just want to... pretend that we're in a different time, and fill different roles. But we're still us." --- Anakin indulges Obi-Wan's academically inclined kinky side on his 68th birthday.

[jeannereames]

Hello Dr. Reames I hope you’re doing well

I have a question. I was reading everything you’ve written on your blog about alexander and hephaistion and in a post you mentioned that as alex and hephaistion became older their relationship became more complicated. Could you expand more on what you mean by that? In what ways did it become complicated?

Why Alexander and Hephaistion as Lovers as Adults was “Complicated”

I’m not entirely sure whether the asker means the historical people, or the characters in my novel, so I’ll answer for both, as the answer is somewhat the same, but in the book, I can add more specificity. One must be more circumspect about the historical people.

First, if they were never lovers (the historical people), then the only complication would have been Alexander’s increasing power. No matter how much freedom Hephaistion had, the murder of Kleitos showed that a drunk, furious Alexander could do terrible things, even to people he considered like family. As ATG aged, he had more cause for anger, and he also drank more.* So there was that.

But returning to the question of whether they were lovers, my colleague Sabine Müller doesn’t think they were—largely because she believes they met as adults. And THAT gets to the heart of why—if they were lovers—their relationship would have become more complicated across time. They aged.

The Greeks placed homoerotic attachments among the stages of life. A preteen/young teen was the beloved, or pursued partner (eromenos). Once he got a beard, post 18-ish (e.g., ephebe age), then one became the lover, or pursuer (erastes). Any relationship one had previously enjoyed with an older lover was expected to transmute into very close friendship/affection. Then, around the late 20s/early 30s, one would settle down and get married. It was still all right to chase younger boys, but only for a little while. Doing it too long earned “dirty old man” status, although we have evidence of older (40+, even 50+) elite men doing just that. Also, males of any age could pursue affairs with hetairai and other prostitutes (male or female), as well as with slaves of any age.

Two adult men still “carrying on” as if they were teens/young men was considered unseemly. By the time both were past 20, and certainly past 25, they shouldn’t still be having sex with each other. Although if they’d been long-time lovers as youths, they might get nods for loyalty (v. the playwright Agathon and his long-time lover, Pausanias) … and friends didn’t ask what they did behind closed doors. But this was easier to pull off as a slightly counter-culture artist playwright than a king and his increasingly important marshal.

So that’s why Alexander and Hephaistion would have experienced complications as they aged—assuming they stayed lovers. And they may not have. Even if, as youths, they were lovers, as adults, they could each have moved on. Curtius names other youths (not just Bagoas) with whom Alexander might have had a fling. It’s subtle in the text, but the Latin word used could imply something. We don’t have similar attestations for Hephaistion, but I wouldn’t expect us to, so that’s meaningless. Remember, our histories are laser-focused on Alexander, with details about other marshals appearing only if/when they matter to the main story. So, we have the name of Philotas’ mistress only because she became Krateros’ source for dirt on what Philotas said about Alexander as pillow talk. If not for that, we wouldn’t even know he had a mistress. Ergo, we MUST assume there’s a lot of information about the men in high positions around Alexander that our sources simply don’t relate (and perhaps didn’t know).

Now, in terms of Dancing with the Lion, the age thing very much is the problem, as Hephaistion is the elder but Alexandros king. They can continue a relationship for a short while (a few years), but AS KING, Alexandros would be assumed to be the “active” partner (erastes), and that would damage Hephaistion’s reputation—because he’s older (and was originally the erastes). For an older male to accept the passive role (bottoming) was demeaning, making himself “like a woman.”

That’s why the penultimate scene in Dancing with the Lion: Rise is so important! Hephaistion “flips the script,” explaining why he considers bottoming the position of power—startling Alexandros, who never thought about it that way.

Going forward, their friends will ignore any continuation and not examine it too closely due to respect for their loyalty to each other. But this works only for a little while. After Granikos and leading up to Issos, the pressure is on for Alexandros to find a nice girl to make his mistress and move Hephaistion into the role of Older Friend (without benefits)—which he does with Barsine. Yet I don’t plan to have them entirely give up their romantic liaison, so that requires concealment for Hephaistion’s benefit. And it’s not fully successful. Some push back against Hephaistion by enemies does owe to disrespect for his “preferences.”

But keep in mind, I’m speaking now of the fictional characters, not necessarily the historical people. My Hephaistion is pretty high on the Kinsey Scale, in the 5-6 range. Keeping the respect needed to command successfully as his political star rises means he must wear a mask, or find a beard, to use slang. One of the (several) points behind my series is to show it wasn’t necessarily any easier to be gay in “tolerant” ancient Greece. It was just difficult in different ways.

———————

* Before anyone asks, no I don’t think Alexander was an alcoholic, even a “functional” one. There’s literally not enough evidence to say for sure, pace J. M. O’Brien (Alexander the Great and the Invisible Enemy). O’Brien may not call him an alcoholic, but he certainly implies it.

We have two complicating factors that make any sort of real determination difficult: first, the nature of banqueting at the Macedonian court, and second, the fact that historians record the exceptional, not the usual. Symposia (drinking parties) in the Greek world were already venues for both competition and display, and Macedonians didn’t customarily dilute their wine, unlike (many) Southern Greeks. The king was not only expected to keep up, but to excel in all things, including his ability to drink. So there’s that. Add to this the fact historians don’t tell you about the 56 times the king held a symposion where nothing exciting or out-of-the-way happened. They’ll tell you about that 57th when something bad DID happen.

Even in antiquity, there was debate about whether Alexander drank too much, with detractors and Roman-era rhetoricians using him as an exempla of Drinking is Bad (especially in rulers), while apologists (like Aristobulos) claimed he didn’t overdrink, he just liked conversation so he stayed late, lingering over his wine.

Hmmm. I’m going with Door Number Three: yes, sometimes he drank too much, especially as stresses piled up, but if he’d been an actual alcoholic, even a functional one, he probably couldn’t have accomplished everything he did. For one thing, availability of alcohol on the march would’ve been sporadic, so I suspect those famous drinking parties were what happened when they got their hands on some wine, in between long stretches where they probably didn’t have much, if any.

[transgenderer]

was thinking about the achilles/patroclus eromenos erastes discourse while listening to the iliad. patroclus is noticeably nurturing (even described as "gentle"!) which in our culture i think reads as bottom but in THEIR culture the erastes was sort of supposed to nurture the eromenos. so it seems like maybe the other reading makes more sense there. in any case the emily wilson translation is really un-gay about the whole thing. im not sure if that's a weird choice she made or if the text just isnt that gay

[intermundia]

prompt: ancient greek au where obi-wan accepts anakin as his eromenos after struggling to come to terms with the fact that he craves this dynamic.

seeing this prompt last year felt a bit like seeing the bat-signal up in the sky haha the term erastes/eromenos is something that i've been putting into obikin since my very first story in 2020. i hope the story lived up to the prompter's expectations, i had a lot of fun writing it! <3

[meraki-yao]

Is this a safe place? I sort of want to get something off my chest, but I have to do it anon because I’m scared. I’m a straight girl and a huge rwrb fan, and thus also a big fan of TZP and Nick. Lately I’m feeling more and more alienated in most of the fandom and I’m afraid I’m the problem? It’s just all this talk about topping and bottoming and what that means for how the characters are perceived that I absolutely do not get? Is it empowering in some way I’m not getting, because if not the feminist in me is sort of appalled.

It’s more or less the idea that bottoming is a little humiliating in a way that needs to be made jokes about that is bothering me. Like the bottom is always a little pathetic or desperate (like how women have historically been portrayed), and we should snicker when the top (or anyone) publicly «calls them out» for bottoming? Obviously not everyone does this but I see it more and more? And when it was just in fics and art I kept my mouth shut because I think that should be a free space, but now I see it in how the actors are talked about too. Like Alex is the top so TZP is made out to be hypermasculine and Henry was the bottom so Nick is either babied or made fun of? It’s bad for both imo. Why can’t tzp be babygirl sometimes and the focus be on his soft sides? All I see is talk about his body and how everyone wants him to top them. And then there’s Nick and how people are saying they are uncomfortable watching him act as a top in M&G, saying he will always be a bottom and that he is a slut etc. If it was an actress or female characters getting that treatment I would riot. And I guess I am a bit now in my cowardly anon way. Am I alone in feeling frustrated about this? Is it bad that I am? Please help me understand if I’m in the wrong.

Thank you for reaching out to me. As long as you’re respectful and not hurtful, you’re welcome here.

Actually, I’ve kind of wanted to write an essay on gay sex and the perception of gender in same-sex couples for a while now! So this might sound kind of academic, bear with me.

Preface: I identify as a straight cis girl, but I’ve been consuming both western and Asian queer media, both fiction and real person for years. This is my understanding of the matter, and I’m trying to be as sensitive and empathetic as I can be, but please note at the end of the day, I am not directly part of the queer community, therefore there may be certain things I miss, or a queer person will tell you otherwise. Also literally all my knowledge of sex comes from the internet, because Chinese culture literally does not talk about this at all. I gave my sister the talk instead of our parents. So please take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Also gonna talk about sex in an academic manner, but it’s still sex, so here’s your nsfw warning!

Ok here we go:

The power dynamic in sex position is fundamentally biological: the penetrator controls the pace and intensity of the act, thus is the active participant; the penetrated is in turn the passive. This is just the mechanics of the act: The penetrated, be it the woman in a straight couple or the bottom in a gay couple is put in the more vulnerable position, therefore the top, as the active participant is perceive as having more power, while the bottom as the passive participant is perceived as having less power.

And there are historical records of this perception: in ancient Greece, there was a common romantic dynamic called pederasty, a romantic and sexual relationship between an older man (the erastes/ to love) who acts as the active, dominant participant, aka the top, and a younger boy/ a teenager (the eromenos/ beloved) who acts as the passive, submissive participant, aka the bottom. It is speculated that this is the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. This practice was understood as educative, as a means for the older man to teach the younger “how to be more manly as to grow up into a man”. THAT BEING SAID BY TODAY’S STANDARDS THIS IS PEDOPHILA AND DEFINITELY NOT OKAY. On top of that, the perception of being gay in ancient Rome is “it’s okay if you’re gay, as long as you’re the top”. My point is this power imbalance when it comes to same-sex relationships has existed for a very, very long time.

But the thing is a lot of things have advanced in the past centuries, and the perception of sex and gender is one of them.

So firstly in terms of sex, people are much more flexible in terms of the power dynamics, which is where terms like “switch” (can be either top or bottom), “power bottom” (the penetrated controls the pace and intensity of the act) , “service top” (the penetrator focused on their partner’s needs and wishes instead of their own) and the whole BDSM category (which I’m personally not informed about or interested in). So I would say we’re mostly past the point of humiliating bottoms or perceiving bottoms as inherently weak, and use bottom more in terms of the mechanics.

That being said, the power being more balanced does not immediately take away the gender perception of the dynamic.

Since when comparing a gay couple’s sex act with a straight couple’s sex act, the woman has to be in a penetrated position as per biology and anatomy (at least traditionally speaking), the association drawn between the bottom and the woman becomes easy to make. In fact in China, all bottoms, regardless of gender/sexuality, are referred to with female terms, like “wife”, “princess”, “queen” etc. So bottoms tend to be feminized, or at least viewed as more effeminate. Again, this has changed and made more flexible/free in modern times, but this trend is still present.

But when it comes to applying the terms on the boys, something involved is also the audience’s own perception and understanding of gender representation. “Babygirl” is more referring to the “cute” kind of attractiveness than actually babying him, which with given material, tends to apply more to the perception and presentation of Nick than Taylor. That being said I have seen Taylor/Alex being referred to babygirl as well. It’s a little rare but it’s present. I wouldn’t really say Taylor’s hypermasculine either, but in relatively, his style and manners lean more towards the masculine side of the spectrum. But again it’s a matter of perception. Are the gendered terms used on the boys affected by the dynamic of their characters? To some degree, yes. But it’s also sometimes a genuine commentary on their own style as themselves.

As for Geroge, I personally haven’t seen those comments, but the problem with the comments lies in associating George with Nick as an individual and Henry as an individual: as in, they’re not treating George as George, they’re treating George as Nick, which might be why they have such comments. That being said, this is a piece of media, so each to their own.

I think the last thing I’m gonna say to end this is that please remember that this is all subjective perception. If you see something different, then that’s just what you see. Try seeing someone else’s perspective, and if you tried and it didn’t work, then let it be. You’re not in the wrong, it’s ok that you’re frustrated, but at least I don’t think the situation is as harmful as you might see it to be. These types of comments often are throwaway thoughts, so there’s also the question on how serious a comment is.

Hope this helped! Feel free to shoot me another ask if you still have questions.

[johaerys-writes]

Ch. 15: Like In The Movies

Read on AO3 | Read from the beginning

Patroclus gazes out of the window, getting lost in the approaching dusk as the Maths teacher drones endlessly in her level, monotonous voice. The clouds close to the skyline are starting to darken, their undersides soft and fluffy and tinted a warm pink, while time crawls at a snail’s pace towards the end of lesson.

He’s been having a lot more of them since the start of the school year. It’s the final year of high school, only a month until the Panhellenic exams, and prep has never been more intense. He often finds himself studying well into the small hours of the morning; he has even started taking drawing lessons, two hours every Saturday morning before going back to cram school for revisions and mock tests. The drawing class was Achilles' idea; he'd insisted they should both apply for the Athens School of Architecture, and had pestered Patroclus about it until he finally agreed. 

"Just think of how cool it will be if we both end up in the same school together," Achilles had said with a grin, and Patroclus had found it impossible to resist the fantasy, no matter how unlikely he finds it. The School of Architecture has the highest entry requirements of almost all technical schools, and while that isn’t a problem for Achilles — ever since he took school seriously and started studying, his grades have soared well above most other students in their grade — Patroclus has been struggling a little with Physics and his architectural design assignments of late. He has never been quite as drawn to it, besides; Achilles can devour several books on the subject in the span of a weekend, and even though Patroclus is always glad to hear Achilles prattle on about differents waves and styles at the drop of a hat, he just doesn’t think he’s cut out for it. 

Patroclus hides his yawn behind the back of his hand. It’s only a few minutes until the clock strikes seven, but he swears he could sleep with his eyes open. Not that there’s rest waiting for him when he’s done. He still has to study for the Maths test on Saturday, and work on his translation of an excerpt from Plato’s Symposium for the Ancient Greek elective course he took for extra credit, the one that Achilles had found particularly disappointing. 

“School would never teach us the good stuff,” he’d complained the previous day after reading through the given text and finding it void of all his favourite passages. He had found a dusty copy of the full work in Peleus’s library the summer before, and had read it aloud cover to cover while Patroclus did his push ups or his stretches at the shed. He had been delighted with Alcibiades’ and Agathon’s rivalry over Socrates, and the fact that they both flirted with him so shamelessly in front of all those other great men. He had talked about it incessantly for weeks.   

“All those ancient dudes we read about in class were gay, you know,” Achilles said with a wink. 

“That’s not how I’d put it,” Patroclus said, grateful there was no one within earshot. “That’s not how they’d put it either. It was mostly a thing in Athens, as far as we know, and even then there were rules regarding the age and social position of the erastes and the eromenos , and—” Achilles dismissed his rather technical remark with a wave of his hand. 

“That’s just the fine print. You know I’m right.” Achilles’ eyes gleamed with the thrill of a challenge. “If we lived in ancient Greece, we’d be making out all the time. Boys our age were sort of expected to. For practice, or bonding. Or just for fun.” 

“For fun, huh,” Patroclus murmured with an uneasy laugh. He had a feeling Achilles was making all of this up, but didn’t have the heart to point it out. And then Achilles grinned his feral grin, the one Patroclus knows too well, and it was all over for him. 

One moment Patroclus was by the edge of the creek, a pebble in his hand waiting to be tossed across the water, and the next he was being kissed, his back pressed to the trunk of the ancient willow tree. Achilles’ lips were soft and sticky-sweet from the apple he’d had a moment before, and the quiet moan he let out when Patroclus’ mouth parted beneath his was at once electrifying and achingly familiar. 

They’ve been doing this more often of late: surprise kisses when they’re alone, fleeting touches when they're not. No words have been spoken about it, but they’ve both been careful not to do it where others can see— at least Patroclus has. He is keenly aware of his surroundings for the most part, but there’s this strange rush that comes with what they're doing that makes him feel reckless and bold. That makes him feel as if there are no barriers between them; as if what he truly wants is only slightly out of reach, and if he were to reach for it in earnest, he can have it. 

It scares him. More than being caught or seen, more than the rumours that might spread, it scares him to think that Achilles might feel the same. 

“It’s for practice,” Patroclus had murmured into their kiss, “right?” 

“Sure,” Achilles had hummed noncommittally, as if he'd barely heard him; and then his fingers were in Patroclus' hair, his teeth tugging impatiently at his bottom lip, and Patroclus had no more questions to ask. 

Read the rest on AO3

[rockislandadultreads]

Nonfiction Thursday: LGBTQIA+ Pride Month Picks

The LGBTQ+ History Book by D.K. Publishing

Exploring and explaining the most important ideas and events in LGBTQ+ history and culture, this book showcases the breadth of the LGBTQ+ experience. This diverse, global account explores the most important moments, movements, and phenomena, from the first known lesbian love poetry of Sappho to Kinsey's modern sexuality studies, and features biographies of key figures from Anne Lister to Audre Lorde.

Dive deep into the pages of The LGBTQ + History book to discover:

- Thought-provoking graphics and flow-charts demystify the central concepts behind key moments in LGBTQ+ history, from eromenos and erastes in the Ancient World to political lesbianism. - Features insightful quotes from leading historians, philosophers, cultural commentators, economists, anthropologists, sociologists, activists, and politicians. - Includes biography boxes and directory entries on the lives of important but lesser-known individuals, alongside well-known names including Sappho, Oscar Wilde, Anne Lister, Harvey Milk, and Marsha P. Johnson. - Global in scope with a localizable directory.

This is volume is part of the “Big Ideas Simply Explained” series.

Queer Conception by Kristin Liam Kali

The only evidence-based, up-to-date fertility guide for queer people from an experienced health care provider, this is also the first to be transgender inclusive and body-positive.

Here, queer prospective parents will find sound advice for navigating complex medical, social and financial decisions. Trusted fertility midwife Kristin Kali walks you through the baby-making process: creating a timeline; fertile health for every body; preconception tests; identifying ovulation; donors, gamete banks, and surrogacy; methods of insemination including IUI, IVF and reciprocal IVF; navigating early pregnancy; and preparing for infant feeding, including lactation induction for trans women and nongestational parents.

This book is for all LGBTQ+ readers interested in creating family through pregnancy: anyone who identifies as queer, lesbians, gay men, bisexual people, trans and nonbinary people, couples, single parents by choice, poly families, and coparents. It’s an antidote to a culture and medical system that all too often centers heterosexual couples experiencing infertility while overlooking our unique needs. It also contains sidebars with guidance for reproductive healthcare professionals.

It Was Vulgar & It Was Beautiful by Jack Lowery

In the late 1980s, the AIDS pandemic was annihilating queer people, intravenous drug users, and communities of color in America, and disinformation about the disease ran rampant. Out of the activist group ACT UP (AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power), an art collective that called itself Gran Fury formed to campaign against corporate greed, government inaction, stigma, and public indifference to the epidemic.

Writer Jack Lowery examines Gran Fury’s art and activism from iconic images like the “Kissing Doesn’t Kill” poster to the act of dropping piles of fake bills onto the trading floor of the New York Stock Exchange. Lowery offers a complex, moving portrait of a collective and its members, who built essential solidarities with each other and whose lives evidenced the profound trauma of enduring the AIDS crisis.

Gran Fury and ACT UP’s strategies are still used frequently by the activists leading contemporary movements. In an era when structural violence and the devastation of COVID-19 continue to target the most vulnerable, this belief in the power of public art and action persists.

It Came From the Closet edited by Joe Vallese

Horror movies hold a complicated space in the hearts of the queer community: historically misogynist, and often homo- and transphobic, the genre has also been inadvertently feminist and open to subversive readings. Common tropes—such as the circumspect and resilient “final girl,” body possession, costumed villains, secret identities, and things that lurk in the closet—spark moments of eerie familiarity and affective connection. Still, viewers often remain tasked with reading themselves into beloved films, seeking out characters and set pieces that speak to, mirror, and parallel the unique ways queerness encounters the world.

It Came from the Closet features twenty-five original essays by writers speaking to this relationship, through connections both empowering and oppressive. From Carmen Maria Machado on "Jennifer’s Body", Jude Ellison S. Doyle on "In My Skin", Addie Tsai on "Dead Ringers", and many more, these conversations convey the rich reciprocity between queerness and horror.

[dutifulriley]

The heroes of the past are always fertile ground for discussion, every detail of their lives held in public common, to be picked apart and specified. These things are no longer gossip; they are the honourable pursuit of the academic. The question, then, began to be asked: who was erastes and who was eromenos? Erastes, older, protector, fiercer in battle, taking another under his wing, the active partner; the lover. Eromenos, younger, more delicate, learning, the passive partner; the beloved. Paederasteia was understood and codified, but fitting Achilles and Patroclus within its bounds proved problematic. ——— Or, half of Greece— alive and dead— wants to know who tops, and Achilles and Patroclus stolidly pretend the argument isn’t happening.

One-shot, explicit rated, faux-essay with added snark and erotica.

[pumpkinspice-prouvaire]

i’m reading your tags and i want to say—regarding subjolras, enjolras WOULD say that. due to a lot of internet stalking i found out that in like 2013 there was this huge pushback against ‘subjolras’ by what amounted to people who identified very heavily with enjolras. they found discussions of him in sexual situations they personally didn’t like very offensive, and so mounted long, derisive tirades against people writing subjolras, arguing that it is hugely perverted and was a personal insult to those people. so somehow, despite what i believe to be hugo’s intent and probable opinion, the fandom has developed this idea that enjolras is inherently a very dominant figure in and out of bed, and it’s somehow ooc and weirdly kinkier to think of enjolras differently. more subby. i also think this is exacerbated by enjolras’ portrayal in the musical, which i don’t find to be aligned with his character in the book.

that is to say, i do believe enjolras was written as more an eromenos than an erastes.

hi anon! Respectfully, when I wrote those tags, I was more referring to Enjolras' canon lack of interest in sex as opposed to anything fandom-based. imo, as an avid exr reader and writer, I have to contend with the fact that I'm always going to make Enjolras out of his canon character by putting him in a romantic/sexual relationship at all. Same goes for any other ship too. My tags were aimed at Victor Hugo specifically 😌😌😌 I personally enjoy subjolras, but I also respect if people opt for domjolras instead. He's a fictional character and it is our right to play with him like a doll <3

[cherrypiehoneymoon]

I do not expect a reply. I have, since our country has entered the dark ages, withdrawn. I really like you, but understand and respect your need to direct your energy toward your own cohort. It’s only natural..

My final soliloquy:

I dislike our ageist, puritanical society that vilifies sex between young and old, invariably relegating that to the sordid realm of perverse lechery. Even pornography promulgates the stereotype of big, hairy, older men as leather-bound, bogus tough-talking, unshaven assholes abusing twinks. Sites like Pornhub etc., which I have occasionally visited to satiate sexual fantasies, which are very creative and deviant, embracing androgyny, futilely searching for that impossibly rare, confident, beautiful, dominant 18-year old, who knows what that innate erotic authority his youth and beauty does to men like me, in charge, looking down at me with unsmiling disdain, seriously but absent cruelty, conjuring up elaborate, kinky punishments. Over and over the follow the same dull script, as if that is the end/all be-all of eroticism.

I wish we were like Ancient Greece, where it was common for the young “Eromenos” to taunt and eventually gratify the older “Erastes,” who cherishes his young lover, until the boy became a man when he shows hair on his body. They called that “clouds hiding the sun.”

But age is inevitable,a hard fact that eludes the young, who make jokes about and pillory old people and laugh at their frailties (e.g. Biden), forgetting they are inexorably sliding down that rocky road. second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, it is not fun, looking back, remembering when we were beautiful, when all the world was a sexual landscape.

This song comes to mind:

Once upon a time there was a tavern

Where we used to raise a glass or two

Remember how we laughed away the hours

Think of all the great things we would do?

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

For we were young and sure to have our way

Then the busy years went rushing by us

We lost our starry notions on the way

If by chance I'd see you in the tavern

We'd smile at one another and we'd say

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Just tonight I stood before the tavern

Nothing seemed the way it used to be

In the glass I saw a strange reflection

Was that lonely woman really me?

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Through the door, there came familiar laughter

I saw your face and heard you call my name

Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser

For in our hearts, the dreams are still the same

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Once upon a time there was a tavern

Where we used to raise a glass or two

Remember how we laughed away the hours

Think of all the great things we would do?

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

For we were young and sure to have our way

Then the busy years went rushing by us

We lost our starry notions on the way

If by chance I'd see you in the tavern

We'd smile at one another and we'd say

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Just tonight I stood before the tavern

Nothing seemed the way it used to be

In the glass I saw a strange reflection

Was that lonely woman really me?

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

La-la-la-da-da-da

La-la-la-da-da-da

Da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da

La-la-la-da-da-da

La-la-la-da-da-da

Da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da

Through the door, there came familiar laughter

I saw your face and heard you call my name

Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser

For in our hearts, the dreams are still the same

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we choose

We'd fight and never lose

Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

Are you saying pedophilia is okay????

[jeannereames]

"Nothing in the ancient sources says Alexander was gay!"

Oh? How about this?

φιλόπαις δ᾽ ἦν ἐκμανῶς καὶ Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ βασιλεύς.

"King Alexander was a quite mad boy-lover."

Probably better rendered, "King Alexander was exceptionally infatuated (mania) with boys."

*cough*

(Athen. 603a/13.80, as the preface before recounting one story from Dikaiarchos, a student of Aristotle, and another from Karystios of Pergamon, 2nd century BCE)

No, I wasn't out looking, but I've been reading through Athenaeus as part of the Hephastion-Krateros monograph research, and that was right there.

Yeah, Athenaeus isn't always trustworthy, a late author, but he's one of our major sources for a lot of fragments from earlier (especially Greek) historians now lost. For you Bagoas fans, btw, the first story mentions ATG's affection for Bagoas. The second story, from Karystios, related an incident at a banquet thrown by Krateros. The point of that story is to underscore Alexander's self-control with regard to sex and propriety. He could have demanded a kiss from the boy in question, but knew it would hurt the boy's lover (erastes), so turned it down.

The one issue with Athenaeus, even when he's "quoting" other historians--he's rarely-to-never ACTUALLY quoting them as we understand it. He's paraphrasing to suit the narrative he's telling at the moment. All of Book 13 is about eros.

The nuts who want the proof-texting neither understand nor care about the finer points of historiography. I doubt they've ever even HEARD of Athenaeus, although some have read the highly sanitized/moralizing of Plutarch on ATG's sexuality.

If you want to read the whole little section: Athenaeus 13.80 on Perseus

[viktoriiayanovska2002]

What was pederasty in ancient Greece?

“Pederasty literally means lust for, or love of, in a strong sexual sense, children,” says Professor Cartledge. An illegal and totally unacceptable practice today, the subject of pederasty is a highly sensitive one, he adds. “In ancient Greece it could be of either sex – the word pais is unisex – it could involve an underage sub-adult, either male or female,” says Cartledge. “But ‘pederasty’ (paiderastia) refers specifically to boys.

“The relationship was between an adult male over the age of 20 (the erastes) and a younger male (the eromenos). The erastes might be what you and I would call ‘exclusively’ homosexual, but they might be married to a woman as well – and that is, of course, not unknown in our society today.”

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[tvrknows]

First of all. This is beautiful and will now be my entire personality for the rest of the week.

But I wanna revise the “relationship with a pederastic nature” part because I think the topic obviously holds some weight. Your own debunk post is wonderful and addresses all the right points settling the question, and with a clear answer, I think still referring to their relationship as similar to pederasty is inaccurate.

The entire essence of pederasty is the age based hierarchy between a grown man and a teenager. Equals can have different levels of skill and mentor each other and still be equals, but an eromanos will forever be just a an extension of his erastes, ideally submissive and lesser in worth until he grows up and perhaps takes an eromanos of his own. The common motive for partaking in pederasty was not love, but the social statues it gave you.

Therefore, if we can all agree that Hyacinthus was not an adolescent and / or Apollo was not an adult this should necessarily be an indicator that their relationship is not pederasty or of pederastic nature, because fundamentally, the pederastic nature was using a teenager as your jewelry to seem more of a respectable man yourself.

People in all kinds of relationships and contexts - whether romantic, platonic or whatever - mentor each other through stuff one is better at, so mentoring is definitely not the main criteria, just like homosexuality isn’t ^^

Pederasty is a horrible concept that I don’t respect and our beloved Hyacinthus and Apollo are the exact opposite of that, as you emphasized well. I cannot stress enough how important it is to distinguish between healthy, romantic love or friendship and pederasty. The line should be clear once you’ve got the age thing down, because adult relationships can actually be truly two sided and consensual, even if one of the adults is way older or skillfull than the other. It’s not the same as teen/adult.

Apollo/Hyacinthus and the god - mortal power imbalance (and how they have little to none of it)

A common argument against god/mortal relationships in Greek mythology is the uncomfortable power dynamic, that the god will always have a glaring power leverage over the mortal. Even if the god is fond of their lover, just one wrong move and still put the mortal in danger, intentionally or not. And I don't discard that.

Zeus and Poseidon's conquests didn't always consider the consent of the women they bedded. Aphrodite threatened her lover Anchises that if he were to reveal her as the mother of his son, he would be punished. Circe was fond of Odysseus, but their coupling was very coercive and Odysseus didn't feel safe around her; and if you're still adamant that Odysseus willingly became Calypso's bedmate, I will assume you're projecting your CNC fetish to the myth. Even Apollo, the god we'll be talking about, had intentionally or unintentionally had his lover Coronis killed in a fit of jealous rage.

And now we have Apollo and Hyacinthus, an Olympian god and a Spartan prince in a relationship with pederastic nature. Right off the bat, it's easy to call them problematic because of the age gap and power balance like the previous couples, and I've written a debunking post about the age gap allegation before. Now I want to talk a bit about the power imbalance between them.

While we didn't really know if all of Zeus and Poseidon's mortal love loved them back and knew for sure that Odysseus was terrified of the goddesses that held him captive, it was recorded that Hyacinthus was just as in love and openly chose Apollo:

Zeus himself told Eros that Hyacinthus was fond of Apollo.

Then why are Branchus and Hyacinth so fond of Apollo? (Dialogues of the Gods 6, Lucian)

Hyacinthus was also admired by Zephyrus, but he turned the god away for Apollo.

He [Zephyrus] had long been in love with Hyakinthos, though Hyakinthos would have nothing to say to him. (Dialogues of the Gods 16, Lucian)

Hyacinthus rejoiced at Apollo's sweet promises of love and companionship.

The son of Leto for love of the youth promises to give him all he possesses for permission to associate with him [...] The youth keeps his eyes steadfastly on the ground, and they are very thoughtful, for he rejoices at what he hears and tempers with modesty the confidence that is yet to come. (Imagines 14, Philostratus the Younger)

In the same scene in Philostratus' book, after giving the promises, it was also suggested that Apollo waited for Hyacinthus to answer. For all we know, Apollo could have just taken Hyacinthus away for his own pleasure, but no, he still gave him a choice.

Here is the god, painted as usual with unshorn locks; he lifts a radiant forehead above eyes that shine like rays of light, and with a sweet smile he encourages Hyakinthos, extending his right hand with the same purpose. (Imagines 14, Philostratus the Younger)

Remember the previous excerpt were Hyacinthus rejoiced at Apollo's promises? He was also filled with confidence when facing the god. Even though he's a powerful deity, Apollo didn't make Hyacinthus feel fear or inferior.

For comparison, this is how Hyacinthus behaved when he was with Apollo...

[Hyacinthus] stands there [...] and he supports his right hand on a spear, the hip being thrown forward and the right side exposed to view, and this bare arm permits us to describe what is visible [...] his neck is moderately erect [...] (Imagines 14, Philostratus the Younger)

Then, when the youth and Phoebus were well stripped, and gleaming with rich olive oil, they tried a friendly contest with the discus. [...] Heedless of danger Hyacinthus rushed for eager glory of the game, resolved to get the discus. (Metamorphoses 10, Ovid)

... and this is how Odysseus behaved when he was with Circe (quotes were taken from the Odysseus post)

[...] just approaching the halls of Circe, my heart a heaving storm at every step, paused at her doors, the nymph with lovely braids— I stood and shouted to her there. She heard my voice, she opened the gleaming doors at once and stepped forth, inviting me in, and in I went, all anguish now… (The Odyssey 10, Homer)

[...] but I went up to that luxurious bed of Circe, hugged her by the knees and the goddess heard my winging supplication: "Circe, now make good a promise you gave me once— it’s time to help me home [...]" (The Odyssey 10, Homer)

While Odysseus was frightful when approaching Circe and had to beg her for favors, Hyacinthus was seen to be very open when he was around Apollo. Although I don't know why Hyacinthus was depicted to be holding his spear when talking with Apollo, I don't think he was being defensive against him. I interpreted it as Hyacinthus feeling comfortable enough with Apollo that he didn't feel the need to discard his weapon and grovel at the god's presence, he can keep it as he like because Apollo wouldn't mind his attitude.

Aside from the mutual attraction and consent, Apollo also humbled himself for Hyacinthus and not minding in displaying acts of service even as a god (though to be fair, he took care and spoiled a lot of his lovers in the same way)

And the love my father had for you was deeper than he felt for others. Delphi center of the world, had no presiding guardian, while the God frequented the Eurotas and the land of Sparta, never fortified with walls. His zither and his bow no longer fill his eager mind and now without a thought of dignity, he carried nets and held the dogs in leash, and did not hesitate to go with Hyacinthus on the rough, steep mountain ridges; and by all of such associations, his love was increased. (Metamorphoses 10, Ovid)

Another addition I'd like to add is the fragments of a supposedly lost work that described Apollo placing his bow or lyre at Hyacinthus' feet as a suppliant, which you can check out its post here.

In conclusion, despite being a god/mortal couple with a pederastic relationship, the myths had shown that Apollo and Hyacinthus had insignificant power imbalance in their dynamic. There's no denying that they both loved and respected each other very much, trying to make things work despite the difference in nature between them. And now you understand why I'm so not normal about this OTP.

Thank you for reading, and you can go home now.