#enbies are not men lite

[its-lick-the-lollipop]

Unsurprisingly this freak and her equally mentally deluded groomer friends see enbies as “man/woman” lite and don’t realize how gross and enbyphobic it is to put binary genders on non binary people or seeing them as “diet” genders

[official-lucifers-child]

actually any kiss is gay if i’m involved. i don’t care who i’m kissing, it’s a gay experience and a gay kiss. because i said so. if the person i am kissing is straight, that’s cool, i don’t care. it may be a straight kiss for them, but it’s a gay kiss for me, and that’s what matters. if the person i’m kissing doesn’t like that, then they shouldn’t kiss me. simple as that.

[oscarwilderobbieross]

someone: says women/non-binary people

me: squints profusely

[ugly-anarchist]

Idk who needs to hear this but framing afab non-binary people as women-lite is actually invalidating our genders and transphobic

Creating "women and non-binary" spaces and excluding masc presenting and amab enbies is fucked up for ALL nonbinary people involved, including the afab enbies who are welcomed into those spaces.

I don't want to be included when the people who are doing it are just doing it because they see me as a woman.

Afab enbies do not benefit from our genders being completely erased. Us being seen as inherently "less queer" is not a privilege and we do not want to be in these cis women spaces that invalidate our nonbinary identities.

Amab and masc presenting enbies deserve to be included in non-binary spaces and they deserve to be accepted and have their genders recognized. But their exclusion is not because of afab enbies. We are not at fault for what is happening here

Cis people forcing nonbinary people into a masc/fem binary and treating us as binary men/women is harmful to both of us. Just because afab enbies are allowed into their spaces doesn't mean we're any better off than you are. Our identities are still being erased.

[thegreatyin]

saying literally anything along the lines of "women and nonbinary people" is also a classic terf red flag btw. but that's an entirely different suitcase to unpack

cannot stress enough how "all men are bad" and "gay women are inherently more sacred than gay men" is like. Textbook terf rhetoric

[the-delta-quadrant]

6 things i learned in 6 years of being out as nonbinary

1. not all nonbinary gender is derived from male or female.

i used to have a very simplified understanding of the gender spectrum as a triangle with the corners being male, female and agender and you could slide around on the sides or in the middle. gender is much, much bigger than that and learning that was an important lesson for both my own self-discovery as a maverique and my understanding of other people's experiences.

2. a lot of trans & nonbinary people still hold on to gender-related binaries.

somehow i wasn't aware of this until 3-4 years ago (ignorance was bliss!), but gender-related binaries are really common even in spaces that pride themselves in breaking them. male- and female-aligned used to be very common, classifying especially nonbinary people by AGAB still happens constantly, transmasc and transfem are being treated like a binary and people created a men vs non-men binary 2 years ago. we can't escape binaries even in our own communities.

3. there are a lot of people who treat nonbinary as a blank slate to project whatever is convenient to their argument on.

i'm nonbinary until i disagree, suddenly i'm a man. i'm nonbinary until i'm openly asexual, suddenly i'm a cishet female invader. nonbinary is not a single third gender, it's man-life or woman-lite. but actually nonbinary men and women don't exist, because the only way to be nonbinary is to be neither.

4. nearly every single nonbinary term either gets rebinarised or a lot of hate.

transgender used to be a term that mainly described people who we'd now call nonbinary, yet it now has a pretty binary connotation with nonbinary people still being pushed out on a regular basis. genderqueer was an earlier term for nonbinary, but binary people decided it wasn't inclusive enough if it didn't include them. people are trying to turn nonbinary into an ideology that binary people can follow rather than an identity. people hate the word enby because it gives us even the tiniest bit of legitimacy that is given to men and women by default. people lose their shit about labels that describe attraction to nonbinary people because apparently we're not a valid group of people to feel attraction towards.

5. binarism doesn't describe a general antinonbinary sentiment, but specifically bigotry against cultural genders.

we have the terms sexism, ableism, racism, classism, so it would only make sense that bigotry against nonbinary people would be called binarism, right? wrong. binarism is a form of colonial violence that frames the western gender binary as the only real gender system, and punishes cultures that recognise more than two genders. the -ism term for nonbinaryantagonism would be exorsexism.

6. binary people are gonna think you're a cringey weirdo no matter what you do, so you might as well prove them right.

no matter how palatable we try to be, at the end of the day they hate us all.

[olderthannetfic]

https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/765800540685959168/so-the-kinsey-scale-famously-measures-only#notes

No hate but, you do realize there's no real way to measure the attraction to NBs in the same way you'd do men and women? When you are attracted to men or women you then narrow it down with preferences, but in the end you're feeling an attraction based on their gender. Famously NB isn't some third binary with clearly defined boundaries. Being Enby is some murky gender soup that doesn't fit neatly into some sexuality. How do you measure the attraction to NBs when you can't even clearly defined what it means to be NB? Agender? Bigender? Genderfluid? Masc, femme, Gender neutral presentation? Fuck you it ain't your business?

I hate how people try to push being enby into some third binary gender, where it's easy to decide if you're attracted to the "entire gender" when that's just not how it works. Being NB is a lot less defined because it's NON BINARY, you don't have an easy answer as to who is enby and how they fit into existing sexualities.

Even if you made a magical sexuality for NBs most would literally just treat it like "homo- and het-lite"

--

You wouldn't know it to see some of the NBs around here.

I kid. I kid. But it is interesting how this has shaken out over time. Some people are overtly using it as an umbrella term for things that don't fit the binary, and some people are using it as one specific identity.

[this-is-exorsexism]

sa mention (nothing horrible, "just" the word)

(i hate using agab lingo like this but i dont know how to get it across otherwise here)

how being denied shelter from abuse and in general when you're an amab enby or "too masculine" enby.

how i am afraid that if i start T i will never have a safe space again because its all "women and enbies but only the enbies we like"

how i will never be able to go to a "womens" shelter when escaping abuse. how i will never be treated like i do experience misogyny/SA/harassment since i am a "man" and therefore dont need any safe spaces. how there literally arent any for mascs or men. how i am afraid to not be able to use "womens" parking spaces in a dark and empty parking garage since they are closer to the exits (at least where im from)

i hate how if you get too masculine you get denied safety. safety should be for all. esp trans/enby ppl. like i get women need their spaces but its gotten to a point where its denied any other gender can experience the same harassment/abuse and not having ONE safe space to go/to turn to and women and enby spaces being watered down to women and women lite and only afab fem enbies. like.

this is exorsexism.

[equius]

once again i am fucking annoyed by the youths who identify as nonbinary bc it's nothing but a sea of "uwu enbies uwu" and "theydies and gentlethems" and just consistently perpetuating the stereotype that ALL nonbinary people use they/them exclusively, and that ALL nonbinary people want to appear as androgynous and/or masc, and anyone who doesn't fit into these boxes is a nonbinary "minority" and doesn't have much room to speak on anything since they don't speak for "the vast majority"

WE'RE ALREADY A MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHY ARE YOU FORCING PEOPLE INTO BOXES

there's no right or wrong way to be nonbinary. there's no singular nonbinary look, alignment, or anything like that. nonbinary people aren't just thin white afab transmascs named bug or rowan with undercuts and piercings and use they/them exclusively. nonbinary people use he/she/it/fae/xey and a bunch of other pronouns. nonbinary people have huge tits and don't bind them and enjoy showing them off. nonbinary people are people of color with their own unique experiences that should be fucking listened to. nonbinary people are fat and deserve just as much recognition and respect as thin nb people. nonbinary people are amab and deserve to be accepted in nb spaces without being treated like they're predatory men in a Women Lite™ community.

get the fuck over yourselves, and remember that we're all a minority together, not just the cutesy enby whatevers with blue hair and pronouns.

[rejectedproject]

this post is about barry the quokka from sonic btw. i dont know any other barrys so

BARRY USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS AND GENDER NEUTRAL TERMS

BARRY USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS AND GENDER NEUTRAL TERMS

BARRY USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS AND GENDER NEUTRAL TERMS

BARRY USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS AND GENDER NEUTRAL TERMS

BARRY USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS AND GENDER NEUTRAL TERMS

BARRY USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS AND GENDER NEUTRAL TERMS!!!!!

[just-antithings]

I was talking to a friend about the post where a person said young queers should befriend older ones and how a lot of people, antis majorly, misconstructed the post to mean “young” = “minor” = “this person advocates for grooming/pedophilia and all the older gays would call me slurs”

What they said was actually really insightful and a sad reflection of queer youth (on social media anyway)

“Many young people, often even black people or poc, proudly adopt right wing ideals. They’re an easy target, and if the right can make marginalized people fight each other rather than them, then they have an easy and free path to slowly take away their rights. And when those affected notice, its often too late.

That’s why so many people purposefully misconstructed the post about befriending older queers. They’d rather dehumanize elder queers and accuse them of being pedophiles because they've been indoctrinated that queerness is for the young only they don’t believe they'll be the same freaky gay when they reach adulthood eventually because they also don't think they age at all”

And I think this part of where they refuse to acknowledge that they’re going to be like every other adult and they’re still likely going to be queer and going to exist over the age of 25 and that they (sometimes knowingly) repeat right wing rhetoric and cause infighting is true.

I have seen antis say they could “reclaim” radfem rhetoric or repeat dogwhistles like “actual lesbian” or use the gender binary descriptors non man/woman on enbies or describe non-binary genders as men/women lite and “you can’t be attracted to men/men aligned enbies as a lesbian” and “lesbians don’t like men (but “men” here means trans women) and “not all men but 99% of men are bad/oppressors/evil/porn addicts” and “trans men = cis men”

Sometimes I wonder how they pretend to not see the obvious anti queer/trans rhetoric they follow, even if you see TERFs liking their hot takes or compare those takes to what radfems spew and how similar it sounds or how often it’s even the same but then I remember that high control groups act very similar to cults in that they indoctrinate anyone to follow one “truth” only, reject anything that goes against it, shame people and instill fear so that they’ll never go against hard set rules

And that’s terrifying

.

[quark-nova]

Do including t4t folks who date outside their gender include nblnb and nblm/nblw? Does it include people in these groups who are in an AMAB+AFAB relationship? IDK if this is tmi, I'm AMAB transneutral enby, my husband is a AFAB trans man. We've been together a decade , he's currently also pregnant: we're in the process of having a child. Whenever we bring up our relationship in t4t spaces, people either treat me like a cis man who doesn't belong in these spaces and as if our relationship is basically c4t MLM, or treat him as as a bi butch woman as opposed to a trans man especially when people found out he was pregnant and wasn't interested in his explicitly queer masculinity and transition making him identical to a cis man.

Plus, neither of us really pass due to how we present ourselves, I at most look like a flamboyant gay man, tall lanky hairy and bearded who plays around with makeup expression but doesn't gravitate towards feminine wear. He's gendered as a butch lesbian almost exclusively as opposed to a man, he doesn't bind which alone gets him misgendered, he wears masc clothing but a variety of factors in which he presents himself and even basic things such as how his voice sounds are enough for him to lose that association with manhood and gets him clocked. Do I need to be transfem and transition to look like a woman for our relationship to be seen as "t4t" enough? I'm not a trans woman or transfem and I'll never be, does that make me a cis invader incroaching on actual t4t people? Does he have to transition specifically in a way to fit cis centric standard of manhood, does he have to desire top and bottom surgery as opposed to "just" hormones in order to be seen as his actual gender in t4t spaces? Are t4t people not allowed to have children nautrally, does that makes us too close to cishets in their eyes for people's comfort?

We have mutual nblnb friends , same AMAB+AFAB, agender + multigender. Both of them present in ways that align with their AGAB, they're not men or women but their relationship in t4t spaces has been dismissed and treated as a "cishet relationship" constantly, with them being actively misgendered even in trans positive spaces. Are they just straight too, silly little cishets who want to hog up t4t resources from? Do t4t relationships only count as queer if they're binary/binary? If both people have the same gender? If people go through full medical transition? If they're both the same AGAB? What makes t4t inherently worthy in the eyes of people within the community, none of us are aware because we've all been actively excluded or dismissed for one reason or another, had our transness intrinsically erased due to not being the "expected" t4t couple.

The way people talk about t4t as this club which queerness is so narrow and if you fall out of what's expected for t4t you're basically straight? There are straight t4t people who are awesome and face their own isolation within queer spaces that I cannot speak on, so I won't. Having different AGABs or not being strictly MLM/WLW just feels like a quick way to get misgendered or to have your queerness and transness taken into question. It sucks. T4T is celebrated but only if you're a certian type of T4T.

Yes, both you and your friends should absolutely be included in T4T discussions! These are an extremely valuable experiences that you're bringing, and dismissing it as "c4t" or "cishet" is just misgendering. NB4NB relationships are not any less queer, and they're not "cishet lite" just for being of different AGABs - once more, it's reducing nonbinary people down to their AGAB, which is sad to see so often in queer/trans spaces.

I haven't been in T4T relationships myself so I can't comment on the isolation that some kinds of T4T relationships face, but it's absolutely true that some types get talked about more than others, creating unfair expectations for people whose relationships don't fit inside this norm. Which is sad, as subverting expectations of gender like you do is as queer as queer can be!

[arklayraven]

Idk if this is off-topic or not, but another thing i noticed within the OM! Fandom is how a lot of ppl will thirst over male/masc presenting mc's but will actively refuse to let them participate in the fandom.

I choose now to not interact too deeply with the fandom now after some issues with some people. But I think I understand what you mean and are saying here.

If anything, I saw a example of this in some MC appreciation art event thing before awhile back? Like it's damn clear there's just as much men and nonbinary people playing OM just like women.

Yet in that thing these fans were throwing, I only saw like 3-5 male/masc presenting mc's. Then all the rest were women/fem presenting...Many could of been enby too of course, but am focusing on the fact on presentation more here. Which most were fem presenting.

Like it was just sad to see that, and bothering too. It just showed to me their reach to players with male/masc presenting mcs is very low or nonexistent at this point.

Which is very telling to me, and just only proves I feel, we need more love and appreciation shown to the OM mcs who are male/masc presenting.

(Also to add on this.

I fear many nonbinary fem presenting mcs are being considered women-lite in this fandom...which is very yikes too if this is in fact a case.

There's a clear transphobic and queerphobic issue in this fandom that can't be ignored. Which is ironic though, considering OM is the most queer game out there.)

[pwurrz]

hiii! just a reminder for the binary gals and gays who still don’t seem to get it:

nblm isn’t gay lite, and nblw isn’t lesbian lite. because nonbinary people are who like women aren’t always fem or neutral aligned, and nonbinary people who like men aren’t always masc or neutral aligned. when you say ‘nonbinary loving ___’, like it or not, you are including all nonbinary people. the term nblm is for any nonbinary person who likes men, in the same way that nblw is for any nonbinary person who likes women.

when you say your blog and content are safe for nblm, but exclude fem aligned enbies, you are contradicting yourself. when you act like nblw and lesbian mean the same thing, you are excluding a lot of nonbinary people who don’t necessarily see themselves as lesbians.

nonbinary is an incredibly wide spectrum of genders, and to act like nblm are ‘basically gay’ and nblw are ‘basically lesbians’ is wildly reductive and blatantly wrong.

[manichewitz]

one of this biggest struggles i've been dealing with lately as a genderqueer actor is how i'm either too trans or not trans enough for a role. i have to bend over backwards to pass just for a chance to play cishet men, but then i pass too well to play queer characters that i actually connect with.

and then on top of that i see scripts all the time calling for "female-identifying and nonbinary actors, no cis men" basically not-so-subtly implying that nonbinary people are just women-lite, and once again putting transmasc queer ppl like me in a weird place where i can totally connect with and relate to nonbinary characters, but because cis people often don't understand the complexities and nuance of being trans, and think trans men just magically have the exact same life experience and outlook as cis men when we come out, they won't consider me for those characters. and once again it comes down to passing--its important for me to pass as a cis man so i can get cast in the majority of plays getting produced, which are written by/for/about cishet men, but then when an amazing queer thing comes along that i really connect with, if i seem too cis then i'm seen as too much of a man to play a nb/genderqueer character. it just fucking sucks bc there's so many plays out there with messy complicated genderful characters that the industry thinks can only be played by cis women, or occasionally by enbies they view as women-lite, and people like me don't get anything.

[bilesproblems]

Rant about exclus (and how they deal with outliers)

Exclusionists love to parrot a few things when talking about mspec lesbians

"Lesbians cannot be sexually or romantically attracted to men!"

"Lesbians are non-men loving non-men!"

"Bi and lesbian are two very different communities!"

"It's okay to be bi!! You don't have to appropriate lesbians and invade our spaces!"

"Why can't we just have a single label that doesn't include men?"

All of these points are stupid but then you come to me and people like me. I don't like men in any capacity. I'm biromantic for women and nonbinary people who don't identify as men or as mainly masculine. I'm a fucking lesbian by their own definitions and I'm still bi. Really there's only one response, although it comes in different forms

"You're not a bi lesbian you're just a lesbian. Lesbian already includes nonbinary people silly."

If you don't think this is an inherently stupid reply, sit down and listen fucker. If I didn't think my attraction was included under lesbian and that, while lesbian attraction doesn't inherently include nonbinary people, being a woman attracted to women and enby genders is inherently lesbian, guess what?

I'd just identify as bi

I wouldn't identify as a lesbian. By being a bi LESBIAN I am respecting the inclusion of nonbinary people because I am still a lesbian, but by being a BI lesbian I am recognizing they're not just women or women lite.

But let's get into the real reason it makes me so upset

This reply makes me so mad because it shows what exclusionists do when faced with literal proof that just saying lesbians can't like men is a stupid rebuttal and doesn't actually invalidate the mspec lesbian label. They try and erase us outliers. They try and push bi lesbians that are attracted to men away from the lesbian label but when faced with people like me, they try and pull me out of the bi label. Never a real reason I can't identify as bi with my attraction, usually just a "no you're just a lesbian you don't have to label as bi"

Sometimes I get accused of excluding nonbinary people from being part of lesbian attraction because I describe my attraction as bi. Which is. Stupid. If I didn't think it was included I wouldn't call myself a lesbian. Dipshit. Don't be dumb.

What I'm trying to say is this: exclusionists are very focused on sorting people into the separate boxes of bi and lesbian. When someone like myself meets the criteria for both and points that out, I have to quickly be sorted into one or the other. I must ignore one part of myself because god forbid a lesbian be bi.