#dubbing discourse

[shihalyfie]

Why do people like Saban dubbing digimon but really hate 4kids for dubbing anime?

To be honest, I don't think that's quite the case. I think most people who tend to have apologia-level worship of the Saban Digimon dubs also have similar sentiments towards 4Kids dubs. It's "my childhood", so it's sacred and you're not allowed to say anything bad about it.

That said, it is true that 4Kids is the one usually thrown under the bus to blame for radical dub changes while Saban is treated as "comparatively loyal (for the time)". This is misleading at best. If it's loyal for the time, it's by a very small margin, and certainly not enough to claim that it's "practically the same" as the Japanese version as many do.

Saban's Digimon dub looks closer to the original because all of the surface elements supposedly look closer:

They kept almost all of the names in Japanese and only gave them "nicknames", unlike other dubs that changed the names radically! (Except they functionally never mentioned those "nicknames" again after the first time, and no matter how many letters each name may share in common with their Japanese versions, that doesn't change the fact they treated most Japanese names like hot potatoes because they sound too Japanese.)

They left the setting in Japan instead of making it a fictional American city! (Except they tried to do that until the number of Tokyo landmarks made it too recognizable, and it's still something they were able to get away with because the Digital World is prominent enough in the narrative for them to not worry about it too much.)

They didn't cut any episodes! (Probably the only one that does hold legitimate water in comparison to 4Kids actually cutting entire episodes at times, but one also has to consider that Digimon is a heavily serialized narrative where dropping an episode would create serious problems for the story, whereas you could get away with a dropped episode from 4Kids' longer properties with filler episodes since more of their shows were based on manga.)

They didn't make any huge changes to the overall plot! (Almost nobody watched Adventure or 02 for the plot alone, and it's only natural that slowly changing every single line to suggest completely different characterizations from their Japanese counterparts would have a massive effect, especially on 02 where it didn't have an extremely linear in-your-face plot that offset that to some degree -- and even then, Adventure wasn't completely immune, because it didn't stop Koushirou and Mimi's Japanese characterization changes from still remaining relatively unknown in the English-speaking fandom.)

"The Digimon (American) English dub didn't change that much" is the biggest lie the fandom will ever feed you, yet it still persists to this day because people will look at these surface factors and call it a day (and even worse, because this myth persists, fewer people will be inclined to check it out in Japanese and confirm whether this is actually true or not). It's never been about how many actual changes there were; it's about how many were noticeable. Few people talk about how there's actually a significant difference in how dub changes were handled the moment Disney took over (late Tamers to Savers), because it's hard to notice unless you actually have seen the Japanese version. Fusion gets treated like a laughingstock dub just because people were actually able to watch it in Japanese first and see how much got changed later; in terms of actual changes, it's not that much worse than Adventure or 02, it's just that it happened during a time it was less socially acceptable to do that.

So because of that, Saban is seen in the lens of a localization company that did its best to be "loyal" in a market where the 4Kids method of drastic changes were more dominant, when in fact they were aggressive about it in different ways (and you can see a very fair share of derogatory, dangerously-racist-leaning comments about Japanese media, writing style, and content from people who were involved in Digimon localization, so it's frankly kind of absurd to imagine they were doing all of this because they cared so much about loyalty to the origin). On the flip side, it is on record that a lot of 4Kids' radical changes were actually requested by the Japanese side itself, because they themselves wanted to push something that would be appealing to the American market, and 4Kids would sometimes go as aggressive as they did specifically because they got the Japanese licensor's blessing to go as hard as they wanted.

(I actually personally prefer 4Kids' original music and theme songs to the Digimon ones -- they come off to me as feeling like they have a lot more genuine spirit put into them -- but that's just my personal subjective opinion, and everyone has their own music tastes. Anyway, that's a digression.)

I personally don't think it's productive to be mad at the dubs themselves. This was all more than 20 years ago, the market was very different, the attitude towards localization was different, Japanese companies had their own varying stakes in the situation, and most importantly, what happened happened and I'm not going to blame kids for watching the only thing that was accessible to them at the time and developing an attachment to it. I don't think there's any point to speculating how Digimon would have been accepted in the US/UK/etc. if it hadn't been changed so radically, because the fact is, we don't live in that alternate timeline, so we won't get anything useful out of fixating on that idea too much.

The only thing I have negative feelings about regarding the American English Digimon dub is, simply, the way the fandom still talks about it. With things like Pokémon or One Piece or Yu-Gi-Oh, where everyone already understands that 4Kids made super drastic changes, if you say you're talking about the Japanese version because what you're discussing wasn't in the dub, people will easily believe you and acknowledge you're talking about something different, but if you try to claim the Adventure or 02 dub was different enough to merit a distinction, you get called nitpicky or accused of being delusional. This is what I really wish would stop. The dub was different! I know localization discourse loves to conflate "different" with "bad", so people don't want to admit that their childhood dub changed a lot, but it did! That's reality! Please don't make this more frustrating to talk about than it needs to be!

[zeravmeta]

"the missed potential of arc v is how it fucked up the ending/didnt expand on the yu boys or bracelet girls/didnt last long in the xyz dimension/ didnt do whatever-" shut up. the true missed potential of arc v is that it did not fully capitalize on how fucked up the dynamic between yuya, serena and shun could have been. shun is hanging out with two people who look exactly like the two most important people in his life but one of them killed his best friend and the other one was part of the organization that destroyed his life. yuya is stuck facing the ire of someone who is incredibly justified in his anger and at the same time barely understands how it even happened while also around serena who shares yuzu's face and is here Because yuzu sacrificed herself to let serena escape. serena has to deal with the fact that both of them wish she was someone else and for all intents and purposes they are stuck with her and she hates the situation just as much as they do but they'll die if they don't work together, and its not easy when you look like ones childhood friend/girlfriend and the other ones sister. like immediately after learning about the dimensional counterparts they are fully 100% in the know for which is which and yeah they have different clothes + hairstyles but like you're telling me that they didn't ONCE accidentally misname yuya or serena in a fit of rage or sadness? how can shun be angry at serena when shes the spitting image of ruri who was kidnapped. how dare yuya wear yutos face and steal his monster, hes not the best friend shun has been through hell and back with. yuya grieving over how yuzu was taken and some part of him cant help but blame serena, which is even worse because she looks just like yuzu. yuya having to actively cooperate with shun who wishes he were dead. serena once again being minimized by the people around her only instead of the professor trying to recreate the image of his daughter, shes stuck with two guys who cant even look her in the eyes for wildly different reasons. its a complete and total clusterfuck of projection, unhealthy coping, grieving, maybe selfcest?, and it could have been everything.

every argument on arc-v's missed potential shut up forever you will never be THIS missed potential.

[jessiescock]

ok i got another one

i can’t seem to find a comprehensive list of dub languages online rn, these are the audio options i can select on my netflix account – not included in the poll but also available to me are hindi, indonesian, thai and a japanese audio description. idk tho if those are all that were produced or if there’s more options that are just not available in my region, lmk if there’s something else i missed here! also if you’ve listened to/watched multiple of these options do kindly tell which one(s) you like best!

[that-dreaming-dragon]

A while ago I was stressing about figuring out or finding a new term for "traditional" Chinese. I just dislike it a lot. In Chinese there are 繁體 and 正���, I'd translate them to be Complex Script and Proper Script. There is also 規範字 (Standard Script) but I don't hear it enough to bother with it. And y'know how in English it's called Traditional script. I decidedly dislike most of the terms. Although Complex Script is okay. But overall the implication they give off just don't sit right with me.

Anyways.

Today I joined a language discord. And as I was writing out my introduction to list out my known languages, I just typed down "Full Script" without thinking. 💡 AND THAT'S IT! THAT WAS IT!!! 💡

It's basic, neutral (which is hella important because I want things without the added connotation which will bring forth discourse™), and it makes sense! It conveys the whole meaning a Chinese character is trying to spell out. And yes, it is signifying how these characters are more artistically elaborate.

So, I'm personally dubbing the "traditional" script of Chinese

Full Script Chinese

Yes, I know that doesn't match the Simplified Chinese. No, I don't care. I don't like the potential association "complex" Chinese can lead to. Learning Chinese is bothersome and difficult enough as it is. This way it gives the drive to learn the full script and promotes the idea that it was the script before the simplification.

Oh yeah, more of the rant on why wanting a new term and my gripe with simplified Chinese if anybody cares. All below the cut.

The thing with simplified is that it gives off the notion “it’s simpler, easier”, which has the same meaning in Chinese. Meanwhile, 繁(complex, numerous, propagate)體字 ("traditional" script), people are likely to tie it to the complexity, and directly associate it with annoyance, which in Chinese, 煩 (bothered, annoyed), shares the exact same sound as 繁. I wanted a term that can express the complexity of “traditional” Chinese characters in a light that it is something beautiful, with culture and art, not something to be disliked or phased out or avoided because “it’s harder”.

Language is language, and all of them are involved in learning. Different ways to learn. There are distinct challenges between non-simplified and simplified Chinese.

[aihoshiino]

the English dub of Oshi no Ko by HiDive/Sentai is a bit hit or miss, but it really kills me that Donna Bella Litton's stunning take on Ai's final words doesn't get more love. while Takahashi's take on Ai overall is my preferred performance, I really think Donna's take on this scene should be appreciated for what she brings to the table too.

Takahashi's might be more technically 'proficient' in a raw performance sense, but Donna's is incredibly raw and vulnerable to the point that she is audibly in tears as she delivers the pivotal lines - her voice literally breaks on Ruby's name and the confession of love.

That combined with a minor but gutwrenching addition to the dub script punching up a line from the original ("I wasn't a very good mom, but I'm glad I had you." -> "[...] I'm glad I gave birth to you. I'm glad you were mine.") makes this my favourite interpretation of the scene - yes, even above Takahashi's! - and a performance I think is well worth listening to even if you don't check out the rest of the dub.

[amechyofsorts]

While Chilchuck saying "cringe" is pretty off mark, people are really fucking overeacting to that change, especially when the dub is overall stellar.

[sassypantsjaxon]

The problem with watching the one piece english dub is that eric vale is best when voicing somebody completely unhinged like shigaraki or kimblee or aph america

[specterthief]

The "just not the dub" in your tags, thanks 🙏. (I do think the dub has its place and it's got some stuff but it's not necessarily the same show. And the original is just superior when it comes to the emotional beats. The dub I think tried too hard to be "funny" and it kinda took away some of the characters' good qualities (esp Reki imo).)

tbh ironically reki is the one character who i think suffers least from the dub because when the script is good his performance is generally really good on a technical level and pretty fitting to the character's original tone, and he seems to have suffered from the least like... active material changes to his characterization, i guess because no one really had any problems with reki lol

but saying "when the script is good" is kind of fraught in the first place, because untangling the absolute mess of the general scriptwriting from the intentional character changes from the actors improvising with no oversight is such an overwhelming task i've tried to break it down and given up multiple times already, so even generally feeling like reki was the character who had the best transition to dub he's still held down by being in this dub

i do think it can have some entertainment value just to watch a bit here and there to hear the characters speaking english but the fact that they self-admittedly completely rewrote characters and altered the script to the point of changing the actual plot and themes of the show just kind of supersedes the few praiseworthy things it's got, because it's treated as an equal and equivalent way of enjoying the story and it's just... really functionally not the same story. and now the fandom is full of people going solely off the dub and thinking it's the same story and projecting that back on the original text or gleefully praising the dub's (again, admitted) efforts to "improve" the source material and "make it gayer" by adding fanservice while censoring the actual text. it doesn't even hold up for a theoretical accessibility use case, before you even get to the story changes, because important information in the visuals that's conveyed in characters' dialog and tone in japanese gets completely cut or lost in english.

i can't stop people from enjoying it obviously but i wish there could at least be an understanding that it's not the same show and shouldn't be discussed as if they're interchangeable, and i'm always going to put disclaimers like that on any kind of recommendation because the original story is what i'm recommending and the dub isn't that. i love the original show and i want people to experience that as nearly as they possibly can, not someone's smug fanfiction pasted over the original animation.

[kiwisandpearls]

…saying someone is a bad person solely based on a ship they like isn’t exactly a good thing.

[rubywolf0201]

Man, I feel bad for Moze because I’m glad we are getting another 4 star unit guy after Gallagher and another 4 star Lightning unit (we haven’t had one for a very long time not since the units we have at launch) and another Hunt unit alongside March’s Swordmaster form.

But at the same time, his design is just very mid to me because it doesn’t even vibe with what the Xianzhou natives wear (I mean I could say Xueyi to some extent but even I felt she vibed with the aesthetics if only a little).

And the announcement of his VA being Chris Niosi is just not a good look for Hoyoverse tbh (tho I could say the same for Svarog’s EN VA) esp since one his victims came out to say that he clearly hasn’t forgiven the ones that he hurt.

Oh well, at least Hoyo did everyone a huge favor by letting us switch languages so that’s what I’m going to do once 2.4-2.5 rolls around. (It would mean missing out on Anairis’ performance on Feixiao sadly but given the huge controversy surrounding Niosi, it’s for the best anyway)

[pcktknife]

gotta start getting into real physical fights with genshin fans

[shihalyfie]

Do you think Daisuke/Davis is a underrated goggle head because his bad personality in English Dub version?

Yes. No question about it. Well, okay, if there is room for question, it's more that I don't think "underrated" is the right way to put it because I think a good chunk of complaints about American English dub Davis are entirely legitimate, it's just that the "the dub didn't change much" fallacy means that most people don't realize this isn't how he was written in Japanese, that this isn't the character a lot of people (read: anyone working from the Japanese version or most non-English dubs) are referring to when they talk about Daisuke, and, most importantly, that future 02-based material (including the upcoming movie) is not going to be based on what the American English dub did with him.

Of course, this kind of thing is very subjective. But in the last ten or so years that I've seen people become increasingly aware of the Japanese version, I've seen so much of the phenomenon where people who disliked (or even despised) him from the American English dub found him to be one of their favorite characters (if not favorite character) upon watching it in Japanese. This happens with such high frequency that you'd have to be in denial to pretend that this isn't a real thing, and it's probably the disparity I've seen the most with any Digimon character.

Here's the thing, though: I don't think it's a bad thing for a character to be rude or arrogant, in the sense that characters who are human will have human flaws. In terms of sheer rudeness, I like characters from other franchises who are far worse punks than American English dub Davis ever was. The problem is that Daisuke is written with a character arc that's premised on him having always been open-minded from day one (with his real problem being assertiveness and emotional resolve rather than him ever having been condescending or rude), and American English dub Davis's writing does not fit inside that framework. So when you have a character who's constantly dunking on everyone around him, and nobody ever addresses this and instead starts talking about how friendly he is in the second half of the series, it's hard to believe, because it just feels like "this entitled jerk is a really nice guy we swear" is being shoved in your face whether you agree with it or not.

In terms of my personal story with Davis and Daisuke, for me, the major dealbreaker was the way Davis treated Kari. Even now, it rubs me the wrong way; it's creepy, invasive, and entitled, and the fact that it's treated like a "boys will be boys" thing and Kari is expected to just put up with it does not go over well with me as a girl who's experienced way too much harassment in my life (and the sentiment has only gotten worse over the years). So it was pretty shocking to flip over to the Japanese version and find that he was no worse than an immature puppy who arguably respects women the most in the cast (and certainly more so than Taichi does, even). I've even seen quite a few Japanese fans call him their first crush or ideal man...but anyway, point is, I'm also pretty sure that was a dealbreaker for quite a few others too (especially anyone else who's gotten that kind of harassment), and people really do not talk enough about how important that difference in nuance is. Because if he has a crush on Hikari/Kari and is immature about it, it's all the same thing, right?

It's really not.

[thowawayuntilfurthernotice]

As someone who watches anime subbed and dubbed, I kinda find it funny how the whole “Subs vs Dubs” debate is still an issue online.

There are plenty of dubs I don’t care for, and there are plenty of subs that I thought were mediocre.

And sometimes both the sub and dub end up being enjoyable.

Still, I can’t stop laughing whenever I see sub purists claiming that I didn’t truly experience a particular show the “right” way, all because I ended up watching it dubbed instead of subbed.

Anime is anime, there is no “right” way to experience it.

[krakenshaped]

There is discord in my irl card game server dearest yurilings help me come to a conclusion

[mostsanescarletspiderfan]

Comic book YouTube was almost non-existent pre-pandemic and even there 50% of it was kind of ass, these days it got a lot worse honestly.

Idk if I can survive another "alpha male batman" trend or "quirky guy explains comics that he doesn't read" period.

[mike----wazowski]

i absolutely hate the disrespect people level at dub actors. i always see bullshit like "they didn't even give a shit" or "it was clearly low effort compared to the japanese performances 🤓" and genuinely just... fuck off lol. it's absolutely okay and fine to dislike a performance! it's fine!! you can totally prefer the japanese!!! i do for a lot of characters!! but you don't have to level personal accusations at the english voice actors, saying they're not trying when you have no idea how much passion and effort goes into a performance

so many VAs are passionate and dedicated people who love their craft and try their hardest with their characters, only for some fuckin people on the internet to act like theyre hacks who don't give a shit. as if they were there during the casting and recording process knowing the inner workings of the dub lmfao. imagine how disheartening it must be putting your all into something only for someone to mischaracterise you like that

just say you don't like something instead of getting personal and mean about it!! say you didn't like the direction of a line, or felt it didn't match the tone of a scene, or felt like you preferred the emotions of the jp version! just don't be blatantly rude and disrespectful about the actors!!

but it's the internet. am screaming into the void here