#ds9 for ts

[benicebefunny]

I'm sorry, but when it comes to telling fans, "Oh, yeah, my character definitely had a thing for that guy," Andy Robinson will always beat out James Lance.

Not gay as in "journalism bro with a crush on a pair of khakis," but queer as in "middle-aged lizard propositions beautiful young man for sex and espionage."

[pluralzalpha]

Galactic Gazetteer: Tyree

Class: L (probably)

Quadrant: Alpha

Terrain: desert scrub

Atmosphere: highly ionised

Inhabitants: unknown

Affiliation: United Federation of Planets

Appearance: DS9 "Shadows and Symbols" (1998)

Fun fact: the Orb of the Emissary was hidden here by the Bajoran Prophets, waiting for Ben Sisko to discover it in 2375.

[bagheerita]

#ooh this is a hot take#bc on one hand I do actually believe that tain loves him in his own fucked up way#which is why hes so hard on him. i mean he literally risked his career and reputaion to send him to bamarren#he really did want the best for him. but hes so fucked up himself that he really cant be a parent#i love his ‘night people’ speech bc thats really the only time hes ever honest or straight with garak#and that bit about the riding hound tells me he absolutely loved garak. he obviously loves mila very much#but on the other hand garak never felt loved or accepted or like his dad was proud of him. he was never a father to him.#and afterall its tains fault that garak turned out the way he did. sentimental and emotional and short sighted#obviously he had no choice but to have tolan raise him but he was more of a father to him than tain ever could be.#so of course he takes after him. like tain did this to himself and he did it to garak.#theres just so much pain and disapointment and blame between the two of them#they both made mistakes. they even both deserve some grace. the big differance is that garak was just a kid. this was done to him.#even if tain didnt mean to. even if he had the best of intentions. intentions arent worth much when compared to actions and outcomes#also… I bet your right about tain being this fuckin close to just being like yk what. idc. join a cult be a gardener idfc#but he loved him. which is why he never gave up on him until the disspointment was too great. and he was angry and hurt#the humiliation of exile is so much worse than execution. ts was personal#it was so cruel bc he loved him so much and was so hurt

@codenameregnar I wanted to thank you, because I've been thinking about your tags for months now.

My initial instinctive reaction to the idea that Tain actually loved Garak was fucking no way. I personally think Tain loves no one but himself, and therefore loves only the mirror that he thinks he can carve in Garak. But I swallowed my hasty words and forced myself to get to some Tain episodes in my rewatch first and reexamine the evidence.

To me, selflessness is a main component of love, placing someone else's needs ahead of your own, and I don't believe Tain has ever been selfless in his entire life and is therefore incapable of love. I personally don't think he even really loves Cardassia, except when it's a reflection of himself and his own ideals.

But the other main component of love, to my mind, is vulnerability. And Tain does allow himself to be vulnerable around Garak. So, yeah, in his own fucked up way, I guess Tain does love Garak. (For what it's worth, because love is neither a be-all-end-all or an obligation, despite what the writers of DS9 want to promote.)

I also really liked your point that the reason Tain never gives up on Garak being a part of the Order is that he does love him, and wants to keep giving him opportunities to prove that he can do better. He never wants Garak to die: even when Tain feels ultimately betrayed and hurt, Garak is exiled instead of killed because if he's alive he can always have another chance to learn to be better; and Tain gives Julian whatever he needs in "The Wire." If he says it's only because living is a punishment, well he is a noted liar and teacher of liars; and also the truth in the lie is that it is a punishment that part of him hopes Garak will learn from and return from, stronger. Even when he sends the assassin in "Improbable Cause" (I mean I think he's pretty well gone on being too up his own ass at that point but) I feel like it was really just another test: that he knew it wouldn't work unless Garak was already fallen too far from what he could have been. And I guess he was right, because Garak saw the assassin coming, but Tain didn't see Changeling-Lovok coming.

So I read A Stitch in Time and one result of that which I was certainly not expecting was that I feel so much sympathy for Enabran Tain. Garak's life is a tragedy, but Tain's is a fucking black comedy.

I mean, he's a terrible person and an absolute shitbag, but can you imagine? You have this kid. You go to all the trouble of arranging for him to be raised in a family situation where he won't be rejected from society for being your bastard. You get him into the nicest indoctrination school where he can hobnob with plenty of uppercrust kids. You get him a job in your Order and all the proper training. And he's actually, like, really good at it. But he has this fatal flaw of being completely incapable of not making stupid, short-sighted, emotional decisions.

A scene I imagine has to have happened just prior to Garak and Tain's confrontation at the end of part II:

Like goddamn. When Tain asked "what's your plan for getting rid of her husband?" and Garak's just like "plan what plan." Dude. I'M disappointed, I can only imagine the guy who's job it is to know and plan for everything isn't at least as disappointed.

I know he didn't actually, but do you think there was ever a time when Tain wanted to be like, You know what. Just go back to Tolan and become a gardener. Join that illegal hippie cult. It's fine.

[stephantom]

Haven't watched any DS9 in a looong while, but between you and another blog posting a lot of it lately, I realize I absolutely should watch it. Do you recommend starting from Ep 1, or is it a TNG situation where it really gets enjoyable after a season or so in?

Oh, gosh, I feel a lot of pressure to answer this right! Lol like I love the show but it’s a mixed bag and people’s enjoyment of things can be so particular, you know? But hmm, so, I DO think that it gets more enjoyable a season in or so. But I’m also really glad that I didn’t skip anything with it, or with TNG. The goofy bad stuff was part of the good for me, and part of how I bonded with the show. And you probably get that since you have already seen both shows at least in part?

There’s stuff in the first few episodes of DS9 that establish a lot of kind of important things, but OTOH if you’re already familiar with the story and characters, maybe it’s skippable? (God, my autocorrect tried to make that “shippable��—I’m ridiculous.)

Season 1 is a little slow and not all of the characters have really been figured out yet, feels like. (Maybe Dax and Bashir particularly so?) But some episodes that stand out in my memory: “Emissary” (the first episode(s) is important for everyone (the setup of the entire situation and political backdrop, etc) but especially the Siskos. “A Man Alone” is good for establishing some major aspects of Odo as a character (and even Odo and Quark, a little—and “Babel” has some good moments between them too). “Move Along Home” is widely regarded as a ~Bad episode~ I think? but it’s the first episode that I remember really enjoying—it’s just really silly fun, idk. I think it was the first moment where I was like, “ah yes, this is stupid, just like TNG.” “The Nagus” and “The Vortex” both have some good Quark and Odo content (respectively). I think “Dramatis Personae” was fun? (Can’t fully remember. But it felt similarly stupid-TNG to me.) “Duet” was kind of impressively heavy, maybe the first good example of how intense DS9 can get, aside from the opener? “In The Hands of the Prophets” ends the first season and iirc is the first multi-parter (not counting the season opener) and creates some good momentum and character/character dynamics growth. It’s either this episode or a directly related one afterwards that has one of my favorite found-family moments with Kira and the others.

Some people say the show really takes off in the 4th season, but I feel like that’s skipping so much character development and fun. Idk. DS9 tends to have great narrative multi-episode runs that start at the end of seasons and run a few episodes into the following season. The one which starts near the end of season 5 and goes several episodes into season 6 was especially good, in my opinion (even if it then proceeded to completely drop some threads, devastatingly). But it might be weird to just jump into that?

Idk, there are a lot of different “if you’re watching for this” episode lists out there, so I would recommend googling a little if you’re interested in something like that. But I guess I’m kind of a completionist with these shows. There are skippable episodes, definitely, but it’s hard to know which moments you’ll be glad you caught ultimately and which slower points make the payoff better for the points that pull things together in a satisfying way. But I also don’t know how much you remember if the show. A rewatch is a different matter which I haven’t given enough thought to!

Sorry, this response was way too long with too little specific advice!

[freaky-federation]

I made these, feel free to use them if you wish

[a-star-that-fell]

i think the thing that gets me about julian is how the canon narrative treats him versus how his (mostly queer and neurodivergent, from what i’ve seen) fans treat him. i know it was the 90s but the narrative really is not kind to him — you can read between the lines and see his good qualities, but there is so much about his character arc that bugs me, especially season 1-2 and 5-7 in the series.

early julian is seen as annoying by both canon characters and a lot of fans. admittedly, with my hyperempathy, he gives me second hand embarrassment at times, especially with dax, and his “frontier medicine” spiel shows his own internalization of the federation colonialist savior complex. not inherently a bad character choice on either front, but i feel like he’s reduced to this naive, “annoying” character, when he’s also shown to have this amazing capacity for compassion and eagerness, plus his medical skills are shown to be outstanding.

late series julian still has these qualities, but he is very obviously traumatized by this point, which isn’t inherently a bad character choice. but even though he’s beaten down, not eager and naive anymore, he’s still mocked — that scene from late s6 where sisko goes “i like him better this way” gives me rage because it just mirrors how people treat neurodivergent people in real life. it reminds me of how autistic people are subjected to ABA in order to make them “easier to handle” — the theme that connects these two ideas is trauma. ABA is traumatizing, emotional abuse is traumatizing, being on the front lines of an interstellar war is traumatizing.

julian’s arc is all about trauma, from his childhood to his service in starfleet, and that’s why i think so many of us vibe with him on such a deep level. not only because many of us have been through similar experiences, both on that low level constant and pervasive “everyone thinks i’m annoying and different and wrong” day-to-day front and on the catastrophic-events front. but because even through all of this crap, julian is still such a kind character. he’s not always soft, he’s not always nice, hell his kindness isn’t always appropriate for the situation. but he has this incredible compassion that can’t be taken away by anyone — not his parents, not the dominion, not sloan.

that resonates with me, and probably other julian fans as well. my therapist, to whom i’ve explained my attachment to him many times, says that by loving him, i’m loving myself, because i’ve been through some of this shit too as an queer autistic person. people find me annoying, too much, too different, just like how they see him. but i love him, even through his mistakes and warped worldview, and other people love him too. that gives me hope.

[seren4d3]

WAIT WHAT IS LOGAN’S FAVORITE RACE IN STAR TREK?! HIS FAVORITE SERIES?! DOES VIRGIL WATCH STAR TREK WITH HIM?! DOES HE HAVE MERCH?! DOES HE WRITE ABOUT CANON CHARACTERS OR DOES HE HAVE OCS?! WHAT IS HIS STYLE OF WRITING?!

SO MANY QUESTIONS

[lenniershairlessredacted]

sometimes it seems like search engines have gotten really good at natural language, but until I can type in “the ds9 episode that starts with dukat space skyping kira to tell her he fucked her mom” and actually get the right episode back, we’re basically still in 2000 tbh

[biomic]

how to win baseball: kill the opposition

[hunterinabrowncoat]

No, but seriously the reasons why I will adamantly defend Sisko and Kira as fascinating, endearing, complex, and incredible characters, and why they will always be my favs ever, is not in spite of their anger, it’s because of it.

Sisko is a black man who loves to cook and is a fantastic single father who makes major life decisions with his son’s best interests at the forefront of his mind, and is actively, openly, gleefully enthusiastic about things. He’s also a Captain who shouts and screams and loses his temper, like there are all of these videos of compilations of him shouting, and it’s funny because it’s so unlike the Captain that everybody got used to - Picard. But it’s not treated as a flaw - he never loses respect for losing his temper; his anger instills respect and sometimes fear into his crew. And he doesn’t get angry because he’s an angry person, he gets angry because he’s passionate. He yells about justice, about people doing morally reprehensible things, about making the right choices.

He’s a black man who gets angry without being an Angry Black Man. He gets to be soft and gentle and also passionate and angry.

And Kira is a woman who grew up under an oppressive occupation, and she was a terrorist. She’s a woman who is also passionate, who gets incredibly angry, who could be described as volatile, but is never demonized for it. And she spends the entire series learning to come to terms with that trauma, and learning who she is outside of that war which is all she’s ever known. She’s able to be a hot ball of repeated trauma coming out as rage, while also being sensible, tactical, level-headed, incredibly compassionate, and deeply religious.

It’s why I think they are super important characters, but it’s also why I love their relationship with each other so much as well. They’re both war trauma victims, and neither of them hold up the Federation as a perfect ideal, but as the positive and functional - but not perfect - operation that it is. They’re two people trying to figure out how to navigate life and be high ranking officers after war has made and changed them.

[kelasparmak]

garashir for the ask meme? :)

full disclosure i don’t remember which ask meme this was because as has been established i’ve been a Mess, but i’ll assume it’s this one:

Fake dating/marrieds: it is COMPLETELY unnecessary. there is no need for them to pretend to be dating or married at all, but julian suggests it because that’s what happens in Spy Books, and garak goes along with it because a) he’s pining and/or b) this is bound to be hilarious. then they both realise they’ve signed up for more than they intended to, but of course they are fucking stubborn as hell so they just keep making it worse for themselves (and, though they’re probably completely oblivious to this, each other). if this were a fic i was writing, i would end it with them not getting together and just having the bluest balls in the world, because they’re fucking idiots. (but maybe i’d write an epilogue a few weeks later, where jadzia and kira are loudly rolling their eyes about how those dumb fucks who are now dating didn’t realise they were in love with each other despite unnecessarily making out in front of an ambassador to ‘prove’ they were married even though said ambassador had had no reason to doubt it and didn’t give a shit until they started with the pda on the bridge and sisko had to pull them apart because it was just making the situation less believable)

Bodyswap: julian is THRILLED - cardassian doctors are super secretive about medicine and anatomy so this is a great way for him to find out things like how a cardassian body reacts to penicillin! garak is initially worried about being super fragile and squishy in a human body but then realises that actually he is much safer in julian’s body than his body is under the care of Excitable Knowledge-Hungry Pupppy Dr Julian Bashir. the episode is basically everyone trying to stop julian from killing himself and garak by performing medical trials on himself.

Telepathy: again - it’s sad. it’s unavoidably sad. they probably just go get drunk and have sad sex. boohoo.

OH NO only one bed at the hotel: julian probably volunteers to sleep on the floor (and probably puts his foot in his mouth by implying that garak is old and will hurt his back if he doesn’t take the bed) but fortunately garak is used to him being a doofus and convinces him that it is in everyone’s best interest if they share the bed. the room has a thermostat which julian has considerately already turned up, but garak ignores this in order to make the body heat argument. they end up both being too warm and uncomfortable. they’re disasters.

Accidental time-travel: BISEXUAL DISASTER TEEN GARAK. always my fave. alternatively, i kinda like the idea of them meeting as kids - like, before jules’s engineering, before garak finds out tolan’s not his dad and he doesn’t get to be a gardener when he grows up. it’d be super poignant, esp if the time travel incident was fixed within the episode but they both remembered it afterwards and had a tiny little piece of ‘before the world happened to him’ of each other to hold onto.

Their first kiss: awkward, uncomfortably positioned, probably in a near-death scenario that they definitely could’ve avoided. julian says something dumb.

Meeting the parents: well, again, julian has met tain and that was…. something. probably better than most would manage with tain. i like to think that garak subtly made richard bashir’s life difficult, not so much because of the engineering (which i personally, as a Real Life Autistic, think is awful, but garak, as a Fictional Cardassian, might understand the motivation behind) but because of his attitude when he talks to julian. if this child is your legacy and you really just want the best for him and will break the law and do immoral things to give him the best opportunities in life that you can, at least do it in such a way that he appreciates it, you idiot. (or, going off garak’s own experiences: if you’re going to give your son horrible lifelong trauma for your own purposes, you have to at least go through with making sure those purposes work, or it’s just a waste!). garak’s perspective is fucked up but ultimately, even if it’s largely for different reasons, i can see him being just as disgusted w richard bashir as the fandom is.

Moving in together: again - a disaster. they’re both very particular about their living space, but julian at least has a very meticulously planned chaos sort of thing going on. ‘yes, i know all my clean shirts are under the left cushion on the sofa, that’s where they’re supposed to be, it keeps them pressed just right’. ‘yes, i know there’s been a half-eaten scone on my datapad for six hours - i’m saving it for later’. et cetera, et cetera.

A crossover of my choice: fuck. uhhh - all i can fucking think of (and i don’t know why) is jane austen novels. semi-canonically, garak adores them, and i think they fit really well. the only question is which of them fills the plucky and a tiny-bit-obnoxious heroine role, and which fills the awkward and extremely obnoxious hero role. i think maybe neither of them are either one. i think maybe they’re background/side-characters who have their own thematically fitting adventure and love story while the main drama is going on.

An au of my choice: i’m always a sucker for section 31 julian! whether the semi-reluctant, taking-it-down-from-within version that we get in the eu, or an initially-idealistic ‘i’m a spy! wow! so cool! … fuck, my actions have consequences!’ version, or a full on ‘ends justify the means’ version. this could be the only change from canon, or garak could still be with the order, or it could be a situation swap where julian’s an outcast spy and garak has a Big Secret about his childhood but actually never got involved with the order.

If you like, another trope/scenario of your choice: predictably, i’m gonna go with polyamorous domestic bliss on post-canon cardassia. just let my middle-aged disaster son be happy with his idealistic traumatised doctor husbands! …. no but for real, please let this happen, it’s all i want in life.

[regalpotato]

Not me remembering the absolutely horrendous ending to the Kira/Odo relationship whilst accidentally falling right back into love with them

[stephantom]

Do you guys want to know the bullshit waste of time I’m up to now?

I spent the last couple hours relearning how to re-color in-game clothing so that I could start making custom clothes for Quark. This was the first attempt (based on this outfit from Rules of Acquisition) and I’m not happy with it at all but hey, it’s a start! lmao.

Most of the other custom content is made by other people, and so are all the designs for everyone (although I did some tweaking here and there, applied more custom stuff I found, etc). Too many creators to credit here right now, but I’ll try to make a master post at some point, if I ever start making edits I like.

[nuclearr-wessels]

surely you're aware of the new regulation making all bribes ✨tax deductible✨

ID: Four gifs from DS9, showing close-ups of Quark and Brunt. Quark smiles playfully and asks, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you just use the T-word?" Brunt, visibly confused, asks, "You mean tax?" Quark leans forward and asks, "Are you telling me there are Ts on Ferenginar?" to which Brunt reproachfully replies, "You haven't been keeping up with the latest reforms, have you?" End ID.

[a-star-that-fell]

music ask: 12 :’)

thank you! :D

12: A song to listen to whilst you lie in a meadow

I’d say either Misguided Ghosts by Paramore or All Will Be Well by Meg Barnhouse!

[gayspock]

short voyager thoughts

im still unsure how i feel about janeway? </3 which- its very early, so im giving it time and some grace. i am dw. all trek series usually get better after the beginning, or at least thatsbeen the pattern thus far. but i think... and im going to be SO honest. i came into voyager nervous about her!? 3: which is soooo unfair</3 but sigh...

i ts just i have heard one or two disparaging comments. and i think, also, even without those i'd be nervous bc its like. sigh. still, to this DAY, whenever they try to replace a leading male role with a woman in a piece of media, its like -_- .. it almost always sucks... bc they give her no personality other than Woman. like- its always some weird combination of not thinking she needs one, or being too scared to actually DO anything substantial with her, and an overall just "not knowing how to write women" sentiment which. baffling beyond belief. 🤪!

and i was... esp nervous bc. trek has its issues iwth women- or at least it did at this point. dont know squat abt discovery. but i mean- with respect! i do think that ds9 did, at first, have some seriously groundbreaking stuff (like seriously, i'd rank kira and dax ABOVE many women in fiction now!!) but over the course of the show it sort of... ehrm. got a little worse? somehow? not bad, but less spectacular, eek...... and tng was. well tng is tng when it comes to women.... 🤨 (stares). if tht aired as a show rn i'd be like o9

(and also as an aside its like- yes, yes, yes... i am know its like. frome 80s-90s true like. im not triyng to be like "ohhhh,</3 this always sucked😁!" but also i do think tht . SIGH. i think its a little tiresome when ppl do take past media and like... completely put it into some vacuum whenever they talk abt its issues and criticise it. do u know what i mean. like i think its like: for one, its entirely interesting and worthwhile to talk about how consuming it is different, from a modern perspective as opposed to then; and for two its also like... the past isnt a vacuum sealed away from us, even, in the first place so like . ehrmr!! but anyways-<3)

so idk im a little afraid and i dont think theyre going to give her, like, a horrible depiction- but what im sort of anticipating is that shes just going to be.... extremely bland and middling and kinda serviceable bc her main shtick is well shes a woman full stop and im scared for tht fr fr. 😑😣 bc sigh. naurr.... bc she has a LOT of potential- hell this whole set up does!!! and again im giving it the shot, i want to go in optimistic but i keep getting this nagging fear every time im done with an ep and im like "well i have no further comments on janeway, exxcept katie mulgrew is hot which i knew when i was 16 and watching oitnb LOL" , like i just dont want her to just be a serviceable, fill in character but tbe in lurv with her fr frfr<333 soooooooo.................................................

BUT! also also also. i do- i said this last time abt voy, and its sorta why i had it on pause for a bit! like- i again i just. i think in GENERAL they arent taking full advantage of like their whole setup. and its like... its rlly getting me, omg!! bc again: fine, fine, fine. i get it - ds9 was like... a step towards sth grittier and its the outlier, and most ppl dont like it bc of that funnily enough. but thats the thing- like im not asking for that at all, yknow! not for anything super dark. however again i just... WHEN IM WATCHING THIS, IM JUST SORT OF. BEWILDERED BY HOW... NONCHALANT THEY ARE ABT THEIR WHOLE SITUATION. AND ITS LIKE- i think its really just feels weird to me, and i'll give them time to settle in i guess- but its just... i feel like i want more of a reaction. bc theyve given me the set up for some really interesting dynamics and, like, have it all primed to push them into really good narrative spaces to like explore these guys but theyre not? taking any of that opportunity?

and again its like theyre just on some happy jaunt- and thats fine!! hey, i love it. its whats trek will always be about in the end<3 but nonetheless i think... you CAN do that and still have them actually, like, fuckin acknowledge their predicament and be optimistic abt it. like fuck: i think this could rlly lead to such a heartwarming thing, abt the crews coming together, but like... i dont know. i guess it will. but also i dont know how much im gonna care in the end if u dont rlly properly explore the tension thats there in the first place. like you guys just sort of- state it, sometimes? but then the rest of the ep its like. youre just going through the motions of the rest of the script.

and i bring this up again bc im starting this ep (the cloud) and its opening with janeway and im wondering here if we're going to get more of her, but also its just occurred to me that literally.... i feel like shes one of the characters who really could be fucking PUSHED into something sooo good if they just WORKED! with what theyve set up for themselves an the beginning to this ep is rlly making me THINK of tht and im like ahhhhhhhh! ahrghh! AHHRGHHH!!!!

and the doctor also is like a funny example of like . what feels like the only character whos kind of pointing out how horrific this all is but its like hes written off as a joke the whole time and it doesnt even feel self aware and i think. again i think theres also an angle you could go for: go for the characters, here, being the type to just sort of steamroll ahead and power through this sort of sitch but..... EVEN THEN, i think you still need to address the actual sitch narratively in some way bc that still has an effect and consequences and etc etc etc

and i will quiet my mouth now bc i KNOW im jumping the gun too much but i think its just. i think whats ALSO getting to me is like- this is different to the other shows. where its like... with tng there was no overarching plot so if you didnt stick it right at the beginning, it wasnt of such a big consequence. with ds9 there was one, but i think it kind of forgives itself easily and whilst i wouldnt say it makes the show inherently better..... the clumsier start (bc its worth noting, whilst it was rocky i dont think ds9 s1 was THAT bad- at least by comparison to tng) can be appreciated almost! bc i think it works well with the humble beginnings of the show, the characters all sort of coming to ds9 as different people, etc............ but with VOYAGER its like. youve started with a pretty big event. what im assuming is supposed to define, like, the rest of the show from what i hear!? so its like- its like.... it was a BOLD move to do that. and im not saying that, hey! if you dont get it right now, the whole show is shot- nahhh, its not that deep- but i think it just feels... more stark in its mediocrity. and hmmmm. im again unsure. i am of how i think. i am babes i am