#doesnt mean she has nothing going for her as a character without their relationship yanno

[barb-l]

Just wanna take a moment to talk about how much I adore Vaggie's verse in "Whatever It Takes", especially this line.

Because it makes so much sense after finding out Vaggie's backstory. Unlike the other residents in the Hotel, Vaggie wasn't someone that needed Charlie to be redeemed. Vaggie had always been a good person. She was a real angel who put down her weapon and refused to kill a child, even if it were a demon.

Lute saw Vaggie's mercy as a weakness and flaw that made her undeserving of her halo. Vaggie didn't need someone who saw and believed in the good in her. The problem is that she was seen as sinful just because she extended her kindness towards someone supposedly damned for eternal punishment.

Meeting Charlie made her realize that she wasn't alone. Vaggie is an outcasted angel for showing mercy to a demon, while Charlie is a ridiculed demon for believing in redemption for damned sinners. Charlie understood how it felt to be punished for her kindness, but still persevered with who she is, and so Vaggie does too.

One of the things I love about their relationship is that Charlie didn't "fix" Vaggie. She saved her, yes, but Vaggie had always had that good in her that she acted upon despite the consequences even before meeting Charlie. Such a pure soul like Charlie deserves someone whose kindness isn't dependent on their romantic relationship. It's why Vaggie saying that she believes in Charlie's dream aren't just empty words for the sake for supporting a loved one. Vaggie may be more realistic about it, but she definitely means what she says. She has saved a demon before, heaven's orders be damned. So she'll help Charlie save many more.

Vaggie isn't just helping Charlie with hotel just because she's being a good girlfriend. Well, she is duh but also they both just genuinely care about people even Heaven abandoned. That's why she and Charlie are partners.

[unproduciblesmackdown]

i seen a few times ppl like implying that the positive char development that the donuts are getting via their experiences has anything to do with them having Needed A Break from each other.......i’m truly bemused like. are you talking about this in terms specifically of their Relationship to each other? b/c frankly the way i was seeing it is that their relationship prior to these arcs was actually in a fairly chill place, and that they had figured out a lot of things abt their own / each others needs in terms of it that had been causing them problems and all. obviously i wasnt thinking like “guess everythings perfect for them now” since i mean it wasnt even clear they were like for sure officially ~together~ but also b/c why would it be when they’d just started to be able to have a more solid handle on their own mutual deal

but also like. the only thing we can really say is that sadie quit the big donut and got “yolo” knuck tats because there was nothing at all adequate abt the job w/o having a coworker to hang out w and the fact that lars just went off and died is like, well then live for the fuckin moment i guess huh. like that situation isnt even caused just by the fact that lars is absent, like maybe he’s on vacation or something. its that he, again, died and is still in danger and nobody knows for sure if/when he’ll get back. maybe she wouldn’t’ve started a garage band if that hadn’t happened, but its not like if she had done that and lars was still there, she would definitely be prevented from doing anything involving pursuing her interests, like. idk hopefully nobody thinks that ppl in relationships can’t have independent pursuits or focus on their personal interests

meanwhile there’s no point in saying that anything lars is doing requires sadie’s absence either. its more sort of say the absence of absolutely everyone on earth save steven for a bit there. like sure it was a factor that they got separated the way they did and he felt bad for being too panicky to help her but, same as with sadie, that has nothing to do with benefitting directly from her not being there. and its not like being separated from sadie was the One Reason he was able save everybody and get them all on a spaceship. there was like half a dozen factors there; to suggest if sadie had been there he wouldn’t be able to do this is.....i dont even know...

like fr this whole time for the both of them, the other has been probably the person they’ve been most comfortable being most like themselves around, and not feeling the kind of pressure from each other that generally stifles them in most other situations (like how lars is afraid of how ppl (he presumes negatively) judge him, how sadie feels bound by various expectations for what ppl think she’s really like (but isn’t really like))...the fact that they’re both getting to explore these different sides of themselves isnt really anything they couldnt do back on earth together. the events that happened to separate them (and separate lars from like all of earth...just to reiterate..) just happened to give them a real boost along the lines of making these decisions that impacted their development and gave them these totally new roles within totally new experiences

this is like ppl who have some idea that lars “needed” to die. like, even when its not just ppl who think so badly of lars’s char that they Wanted him to die, but rather looking back on the fact that that happened and he was killed/revived real quick lol—lars didnt Have to do that to have the development of getting to actually fight to protect others and himself and gain some confidence. he wouldve done that whether or not it had actually killed him—when he let the guys scan him without knowing it WOULDNT kill him was arguably enough to give him the same development as if the one hadnt blown up at him suddenly. and i mean, the space piracy is given a fun angle because its cool and genre, but none of them are doing it for fun. they’re trying to get to earth and not fuckin die along the way. lars is getting to continue Experiencing Some Confidence for the first time in probably ever but to present the situation he’s in and how he’s gotten there as something he “needed” is a bit cruel lol...he coulda done that on earth

like yeah if they were both living their normal lives you dont Know that some normal earth event would make them quit and sadie pursue her interests and independence while lars is put in a situation where he feels like he Belongs in a group and has confidence in himself and his ability to do like, anything. but thats coz events sort of just happen at you randomly. like how the event of being attacked by aliens basically led to this for them...it wasnt the Only Way these things could happen, its just The One Way That They Did

and like i also dont quite see that these changes theyve gotten to go through are going to put them in a perfect version of a relationship when lars gets back to earth...they still dont have the longest history of feeling kinda secure in the fact that the other really does actually like them ok, and this whole time theyve been teenz so what do you expect them having a smooth tumult-free development for, and having positive (and negative) experiences separately doesnt just automatically translate into an instantly leveled up relationship the moment they stand within 10 ft of each other again. they gotta catch up and relearn where each other is at and what their new lives and wants and needs are...and just coz their positive development might make it a bit Easier for them if some of their strongest insecurities are a lil blunted now & plus just that being happier tends to make everything easier, doesnt mean that everything is simply effortless. tbh if a relationship is effortless and stays together forever thats less Romantic And Ideal than like, sheer luck.

and it’s unrealistic (in life and in how the show doesnt make a character complete an emotional arc in a single episode or suddenly shed a defining trait just because they realize they ought to change their approach re: something or other) to think that either lars or sadie have like, completely shed all their issues as individuals anyways. and i mean, its their issues that drove them to make these changes theyre currently on. sadie being frustrated with her job, feeling unable to be herself = the motivations that means she’s now really actively pursuing what tf she feels like doing and pushing for it to continue and for it to be in line w what she wants it to be. but she’s not suddenly freed from all insecurities or feeling like everything’s perfect forever and she can never feel stifled again. plus yanno this whole time she freakin misses lars coz they’re friends and that’s not like...something she’s needed to do. absence makes the heart grow fonder but “be apart from each other indefinitely” isnt any kind of a relationship requirement. its just painful and all.

and lars knowing what its like to be afraid all the time and being frustrated abt it means he was so pushed to all at once finally stand up against what he’s scared of that he went and got himself killed, and also that he doesn’t feel the same social pressure he did on earth amongst the off colors, because he knows they know what its like to be scared all the time too—which ppl back on earth didnt understand about him. and so its the fact he’s so familiar with fear and stress that he’s able to fight for them and himself so hard now. but it’s not like you can just Decide your lifelong anxieties out of existence. after a dramatically changing experience, you’re not gonna be the same person you were before, and you’re not gonna be a totally different person. lars isnt some different person unaffected by fears or insecurities anymore. like heck he was still afraid that sadie actually didn’t miss him at all and was maybe even glad that he was gone, something that was completely in line with who he’s been and how he’s felt this whole series. and people go and be annoyed b/c i guess they expect him to just be a character Completely Changed by one dramatic yet brief part of his life rather than a character who’s still just developing and shaped by all his past experiences actually. and who, no, didnt get to choose to shed all fear b/c thats not how it works. he still feels it, he just finally got the taste of taking action anyways. plus even now that he’s not stuck in a crisis over thinking sadie might just hate him now, tbh he does still need to hear it from her that she doesnt lol)

also? tbh? lars’s Whole New Thing has been happening while he’s (mostly) isolated on a spaceship, w just the offcolors and maybe occasional interactions w hostile aliens, which hardly counts as socializing. and sadie’s whole thing of being herself and pursuing her own desires is still happening just around the cool kids really—not to mention all behind a persona. it’s actually not even that like, a lack of confidence = lack of stage fright or vice versa. its a whole other thing for her to stand up for herself and make her own choices in areas that have nothing to do with her band, even though the experiences within the band will help and give her a starting point and something to feel secure in. just like when lars is back on earth and off the ship, he won’t have the same role he has just around the off colors, just being the front of that band in his own, more imperiled, less musical way. and just coz he knows he can hold his own against destructive imperialistic colonizing aliens, doesnt mean he’s gonna be fearless in the face of the cool kids now, or think he can do anything. he’s still faced with the expectations and perceptions from ppl that he did before he left, even if the way ppl act with lars can easily change now. again, just coz things might be easier for the dnuts now doesnt mean they’ve just shrugged off their problems or are now faced with effortless paths in all aspects of their lives

theyve needed a break from the norm they used to have, but Each Other was the least of what was holding them back from changing things up for themselves. it was completely external events as much as anything else that changed things up for them, coz thats how it works sometimes—and within their new circumstances theyve gotten to experience a new situation that lets them be a bit different than they’ve gotten to be back on earth. i mean, they were really restricted. they had the terrible job, both have somewhat strained relationships w parents who dont seem to really understand who their child is, both of them feel pressured by people in general, both have insecurities, both were kind of just faced with a future that didnt involve them being able to just see happiness coming down the line. and it was a big problem for both of them tbh that neither of them really had any friends. sadie was finding it difficult to express herself or be herself, she was always in a scenario where someone (her mom, corporate policy, customers,) expected her to be a certain way that wasnt the real her, she had a crap job, nobody really seemed to know her, her tendency to Hold Back Until You Blow Up could be counterproductive to say the least. lars is stuck in the same job, with nobody thinking he’s particularly good for anything, even his parents not really expecting him to succeed in any way, desperately wanting friends but being too afraid of people to make any, being defensively irritable and pushing people away but unable to be angry on his own behalf. they’re both getting their first chance to be themselves, they’ve both stumbled into Friend Groups where they’re not only respected but supported and even esteemed, they’re both making and acting on choices completely on their own and not being as held back by their fears. but they’re the same people and none of this means the problems they’ve been dealing with are over because of it. they’ve just been forced to adapt to this change that’s come upon them, and they’ve both happened to make the most of it and be getting something positive out of a really crap situation. they could be having these arcs via a different scenario, but it would probably have to be more drawn out if nobody was in fuckin space

getting away from me slightly but its weird to say that lars and sadie Needed to be separated by lightyears thru a horrible experience and one of them is killed and still in space indefinitely. and i dont know how you’d describe what’s happening there as “a break.” that not only implies that they chose to be separated but that they have had the option to be together this whole time and continuously chosen not to, and have considered this whole experience to be a positive thing. an involuntary separation where both really wish they weren’t separated isnt a break. and to say that either of them Need to be separated in this particular way, like, man you know what their relationship needs? someone to be sent an impossible distance away & he died and might die again and might be unable to return. like, no relationship needs that or anything like that. it’d be affected by it sure, and they might be able to find silver linings in it as they have, but its never going to be necessary.....like, fucks sake if it was, how fucked up would that be

again a break would have to be something voluntarily chosen that they believed would be positive for them both, not that they believed would involve mortal peril. and they like, arent enjoying the fact theyre separated. and what the characters are going through is more about their individual developments than how it necessarily applies to their relationship—again i’d argue their relationship was in a decent place actually. not perfect obv, but good...i mean look at how good they both were at recognizing what they were both struggling with re each other. lars didnt Almost Die or anything, until later. and i imagine this stuff is going to help, but not in a “if this hadnt happened their relationship would be doomed” way. and again it is kinda wild to say that any of this might be required of them for any reason, they’re really going thru some shit w all this

anyways 🍩

[red-balloon12]

THANK YOU BISH!!

Just wanna take a moment to talk about how much I adore Vaggie's verse in "Whatever It Takes", especially this line.

Because it makes so much sense after finding out Vaggie's backstory. Unlike the other residents in the Hotel, Vaggie wasn't someone that needed Charlie to be redeemed. Vaggie had always been a good person. She was a real angel who put down her weapon and refused to kill a child, even if it were a demon.

Lute saw Vaggie's mercy as a weakness and flaw that made her undeserving of her halo. Vaggie didn't need someone who saw and believed in the good in her. The problem is that she was seen as sinful just because she extended her kindness towards someone supposedly damned for eternal punishment.

Meeting Charlie made her realize that she wasn't alone. Vaggie is an outcasted angel for showing mercy to a demon, while Charlie is a ridiculed demon for believing in redemption for damned sinners. Charlie understood how it felt to be punished for her kindness, but still persevered with who she is, and so Vaggie does too.

One of the things I love about their relationship is that Charlie didn't "fix" Vaggie. She saved her, yes, but Vaggie had always had that good in her that she acted upon despite the consequences even before meeting Charlie. Such a pure soul like Charlie deserves someone whose kindness isn't dependent on their romantic relationship. It's why Vaggie saying that she believes in Charlie's dream aren't just empty words for the sake for supporting a loved one. Vaggie may be more realistic about it, but she definitely means what she says. She has saved a demon before, heaven's orders be damned. So she'll help Charlie save many more.

Vaggie isn't just helping Charlie with hotel just because she's being a good girlfriend. Well, she is duh but also they both just genuinely care about people even Heaven abandoned. That's why she and Charlie are partners.