#doe/stag discourse

[bi-sapphics]

found something that was so hilarious to me that i wanted to post and talk about its irony here

linked post in the second screenshot

i find it really funny that radfem/exclus lesbians assume we think like they do and are overly possessive and hostile over our history and culture being cut off from the rest of queerness, which has historically been VERY OPEN.

let me make this clear: most bisexuals online do NOT CARE if monosexuals "take our terms", especially considering the fact that our community overwhelmingly rejects and despises doe/stag and any other alternate replacement terms for butch/femme that we're expected to use.

if some lesbians wish to use these terms instead, if only ironically to spite bisexual butches & femmes who identify that way genuinely after being informed (you tell me who's really using which improperly lmao?), then be my guest. useless presentation labels solely for the aesthetic or whatever seem based enough to me, and also to most normal people who have no intention to gatekeep something that isn't so serious to do so with at the end of the day. i have no intention of giving that power to your pathetic attempt.

i even came across this doe lesbian flag a while back, and have yet to hear of any damage done to bisexual sapphics after our precious term was appropriated and tainted by any who might use it. (/sarcastic)

if anything, i would venture to guess that doe/stag were only coined exclusively back in, what 2016?, because the LGB(T) were under this unfounded ahistorical social contract that each should be kept to their own and sharing in any direction is bad, actually (it's not, never has been). otherwise they wouldn't have even been created in the first place, y'know?

^^^ and i will admit that such reasoning is probably the motivation behind why i wrote this contradictory post more than a couple years ago; and while after re-reading it i do still somewhat stand by my reasoning for the sentiment based on the origin, at the end of the day it just does not matter and it won't destroy the balance of the universe if i can't be bothered to care. the statistical number of bi women & lesbians who use each other's terms is so minimal and unaffecting that this discourse is the only thing even bringing awareness and attention to it.

TL;DR ─ use whichever labels you wish if you like them enough and before you "steal" something to teach a lesson in favor of exclusionism, make sure it isn't from people who have always radically believed that sharing and accepting with the fellow marginalized is a good thing!

alternate TL;DR, as a friend of mine likes to put it: "do whatever you want forever"

[blood-choke]

I thought butch is a lesbian only term?

hmmm yes and no? this is something that doesn't really have a simple answer. it depends who you ask; people have different opinions about it.

in general, the term butch means a lot of different things in the lgbt community. obviously there's butch lesbians, but it's also a term that's used in ball culture, by drag queens and gay men. it's an adjective, it's a gender, it's an orientation. i assume you're referencing the other anon, and i have no idea what they may mean when they call themselves butch. if we're talking about bisexual women then the truth is that bisexual women can have just as complex experiences with gender and presentation as lesbians and i don't really think it benefits anybody to exclude them from the community.

like i said previously, butch is not just an "aesthetic"; there's more to it than just dressing a certain way. i think it's way more harmful to pretend like other women don't also grapple with their gender identity and their sexuality and their gendered roles in society-- basically, we should celebrate our similarities rather than argue our differences.

a lot of the time people say bisexuals can't be butches because they still "cater to men" which to me is just a gross thing to say. there are plenty of bi people who prefer women, who do not pursue men, who are gender nonconforming; and even if they do prefer men, if they date men, that still doesn't mean they're "catering" to anybody. it's a very... dehumanizing and misogynistic attitude to have when talking about bi women imo (and straight women as well)

the term butch/femme was historically used by all gay women; butch/femme in this context, are roles that came about in the working-class lesbian bar scene in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. there were plenty of bisexual women that went to lesbian bars and filled these roles as well. there's bulldagger, bulldyke, and stud, that came out of Black lesbian communities. there's kiki, which isn't used at all anymore, to describe lesbians that don't identify as either. there are people that will insist that bisexuals use the term "stag" and "doe" which i don't think is fair; most people do not know what these terms mean and there is no "stag community" as far as i'm aware. i'm pretty sure these are just tumblr terms.

what it all comes down to is that when people see a gnc woman in the street, they're not going to rush over and politely ask if she's a lesbian or not. to be blunt, most of the time they're going to call them the same slur, regardless. the world is going to treat them the same, regardless. so for me personally i'd rather offer them a little bit of relief in a community that is familiar and understanding rather than exclude them to face that kind of shit all alone iykwim.

[serpenera]

One of the things that most irks me in the HP, and especially Snape discourse, is the misinterpretation of the meaning of the patronus. The general consensus seems to be that the shape of the patronus indicates one’s true love but that is a massive oversimplification that creates numerous inconsistencies. In other words, when we look at it like that, the patronus makes NO SENSE. Except the patronus makes PERFECT SENSE. Just let me explain.

The patronus, as we know, is a charm that repels Dementors - an anthropomorphized representation of clinical depression. Keep that in mind as this is important. You conjure it by focusing on a happy memory or should I rather say a happy thought.

Memory is the word Lupin uses when he first explains the patronus to Harry and I’d argue this is the reason why Harry initially fails at conjuring one. He remembers his first time on a broom and winning the house cup. Both happy memories to doubt but “not powerful enough” as Lupin puts it. So what makes a powerful memory?

Harry tries again and succeeds by focusing on the memory of finding out he was a wizard and would be leaving the Dursleys and going to Hogwarts. What makes this memory different than the other two is that it wasn’t just that of a fleeting moment of glee but of an event that marked a major change in Harry’s life, a change for the better. Yes, it was a moment from the PAST but one that influenced Harry’s PRESENT and FUTURE.

See, this is the key to understanding the patronus. The trick is not to remember a happy past long gone, it’s to find something in the past that gives you a reason to move forward. Anyone, who’s ever been depressed to the point of wanting to off themselves will know what I’m talking about here. And those who don’t, good for you.

Anyway, back to Harry. When he conjures his first fully corporeal patronus at the end of PoA, he thinks of going to live with Sirius. And when he uses the spell again in GoF he thinks of celebrating the end of the Tournament with Ron and Hermione. In both cases, he doesn’t even recall an event of the past but projects into the future. And note that regardless of whom or what he thinks of (and not once does he think of his dad), his patronus stays a stag. Even after his love and admiration for James falters due to the discovery of SWM, his patronus stays a stag. This is because the stag, while visually traceable back to James, does not represent James as a person but rather a concept that James himself is a representation of. The stag stands for family, legacy, and a sense of belonging. What keeps Harry moving forward despite all the obstacles is not the mere memory of having had a dad once, it’s the realization that he’s not alone in the world, that he has friends who care about him, and that he’s part of a community.

If we look at the patronus through this lens we can logically explain the shape and origin of all the major ones present in the books.

Snape is often accused of being a stalker incel and whatnot because (apparently) his doe patronus is the same as Lily’s.

First of all, did you pull that information out of your ass? ‘Cause I checked and nowhere in the book(s) does it say what shape her patronus was. The same goes for James. He was a stag animagus. We don’t know what shape his patronus was. That, assuming they both even knew the charm. Although, as Order members, they probably did. If they hadn’t learned it at school, Dumbledore or another Order member would’ve taught them.

Okay, for the sake of this argument, let’s assume that James’ patronus was in fact a stag and Lily’s was a doe and also that the animals represent them respectively. People will argue that the fact the patronuses match (they don’t actually cause they’re two different species of deer but never mind) implies they were each other’s soulmates. To back that argument they will cite Tonks’ patronus which changed into a wolf after she fell in love with Lupin. At the same time, they will argue that Snape’s doe indicates an unhealthy obsession with Lily. Can you spot the issue with this reasoning?

Snape’s and Tonks’ cases are analog: their patronuses turn into animals related to the other person. And yet in Snape’s case, it’s obsession, and in Tonks’, it’s love?

Lily/James and Tonks’ cases are opposite: Lily/James patronuses turn into animals related to themselves while Tonks’ turns into one related to her love interest. But in both cases, it’s true love?

If Snape’s obsessed with Lily then Tonks is obsessed with Lupin and Lily and James are just obsessed with themselves. Contrarily, if Tonks loves Lupin then Snape loves Lily, and Lily and James, again, just love themselves respectively. Moreover, if you follow either logic, Harry is obsessed / in love with James and Dumbledore with Fawkes.

See how none of that makes ANY SENSE whatsoever? Also, no, it’s not a plothole. Y’all are just looking at it wrong. Now let’s rewind and analyze all of these the same way we did with Harry’s at the beginning of this rant.

James’ case is very straightforward. Similarly to Harry, James finds meaning in the traditional idea of family, clan legacy, and belonging. Remember how on the train to Hogwarts he says he wants to be a Gryffindor just like his dad? That, in my opinion, is already very telling, and considering that right after school James marries the girl he decided would be the future mother of his children and promptly gets her pregnant we can easily deduce what he values and what he believes his higher purpose to be. When facing a Dementor and being consumed by despair, perhaps remembering the loss of his parents and perceived betrayal of his best friends, in order to push through he certainly focuses on his wife and especially his son.

Lily’s doe patronus has nothing to do with Snape. Or with James for that matter. Instead, it has everything to do with Harry. See, many real-life women who find themselves at the edge of despair for one reason or another declare they only push forward because of their children. I think Lily is no different. I mean, she did die trying to protect her child. So I think that facing a Dementor, she thinks of Harry. Her wish to be there for her son and protect him is what keeps her going forward despite everything. She has to be strong because she is needed and that is what her doe stands for.

The doe and the stag, somewhat complementary animals, both symbolize family-related but very different concepts. The stag carries a distinctly masculine meaning, that of the passing of legacy and prolonging the bloodline. The doe has a more feminine feel, that of nurturing and protecting.

Snape’s patronus is the same animal as Lily not because he loves her or is obsessed or even just friends with her. It’s the same because both these characters find purpose in the same thing: being needed.

While for Lily this mindset seems to stem from her motherhood, for Snape it seems to have always been there and for very a different reason. The severe neglect he experienced in his early childhood conditioned him to always seek external validation. It’s as if he couldn’t find value in himself unless someone else found it in him. This is why he was trying so hard to be useful to Lily when they first became friends. This is why he got himself groomed by the Death Eaters. This is also why he was so easily manipulated by Dumbledore.

Speaking of Dumbledore, he has to have taught Snape the patronus charm and it must have happened sometime between his defection and the Potters’ death. Now imagine what that might have looked like.

Dumbledore explains how the patronus works. Snape tries, recalling one of his happy childhood moments with Lily, and fails. He chooses another memory and fails again. Dumbledore tells him it has to be something really powerful. Snape is out of ideas, the only happy memories he has are of his childhood friendship with Lily but that friendship is over, it has been for a while, she’s married to his bully and having his child, and on top of that, she’s being targeted by Voldemort and it’s all his fault. Reminiscing their past together is nowhere near enough to fuel the patronus. Then Snape projects into the future in which thanks to him, Lily is safe, she forgives him for his past mistakes and they make up. This time he successfully conjures his trademark doe.

I imagine that, after Lily died, Snape would have had trouble producing a patronus. That would be until Dumbledore pointed out how even in death she still needed him to protect her child. He would then focus on a future in which Voldemort is defeated, Harry is safe, his debt with Lily is paid and his sins are redeemed.

Dumbledore knows that Snape’s doe patronus is related to Lily but it’s probably because he taught him the charm himself and in doing so he learned that it was thoughts and memories of her that fueled it. Not because it was (presumably, mind you) the same shape as hers.

That said, I’m firmly convinced that if Snape had survived the war he would again have had trouble producing a proper patronus, not because of any change in his feelings towards Lily but rather because with Harry safe and Voldemort gone, he’d find himself lacking a purpose. If, for example, he got himself involved with someone else, someone who would make him feel needed, he might be able to produce a patronus again but it would most certainly remain a doe.

Tonks’ patronus is an interesting one because it actually changes its shape in the course of the narrative. We know it became a wolf after Tonks fell in love with and started dating Lupin.

Yes, it’d be easy to assume that the wolf represents the character whose name is literally Wolfy McWolf and who’s also a werewolf but that would be both shallow and inaccurate.

Tonks’ wolf, not unlike Lily and James’ stag and dear, is symbolically tied to the concept of family and friendship. We don’t know what drove Tonks forward before she became involved with Lupin but we can easily deduce that what drives her afterward is the thought of being with him. When she conjures her patronus, she probably thinks of a future in which they have a proper relationship or perhaps start a family. When Snape makes a dab at her patronus he isn’t just being mean. Knowing Lupin, he probably expects him not to take responsibility for his actions towards Tonks and wiggle out of the relationship the moment things get a little bit too serious for his liking. In saying her patronus is weak he’s trying to warn her not to put her faith in Lupin.

In the end, I’d like to mention Dumbledore’s patronus. Just like a phoenix is reborn from its ashes, Dumbledore rises up from the pit of his troubled youth. When in the vicinity of a Dementor, he must be plagued by thoughts of his misplaced aspirations, of Ariana’s death, and his fall out with Grindelwald. The thought I believe he focuses on in those moments is that of having rehabilitated himself in the eyes of society, and having ultimately become a champion of the light.

[honey-makes-mogai]

[No ID - Help Appreciated!]

Deerpronounstelic -

[PT: Deerpronounstelic -]

A constelic term for those who stel the pronoun set "Deer/Deers/Deerself"!

[No ID - Help Appreciated!]

Doepronounstelic -

[PT: Doepronounstelic -]

A constelic term for those who stel the pronoun set "Doe/Does/Doeself"!

[No ID - Help Appreciated!]

Buckpronounstelic -

[PT: Buckpronounstelic -]

A constelic term for those who stel the pronoun set "Buck/Bucks/Buckself" in reference to a male deer!

[No ID - Help Appreciated!]

Stagpronounstelic -

[PT: Stagpronounstelic -]

A constelic term for those who stel the pronoun set "Stag/Stags/Stagself" in reference to a male deer!

Tagging: @radiomogai @constelicflags

[Banner ID: A pastel yellow banner with a sunflower on either side. In brown text with a white outline, it says "- Please let me know if this has been coined before! -" /End ID.]

[DNI transcript: "-DNI- Basic criteria, anti-mogai, proshippers, ableists, aphobes, racists, zoophiles, rpf shippers, fandom discourse, under 13, transid/transx". /End transcript.]pronoun

[many-bees]

Seeing “can non lesbians be butch/femme” discourse on the Twitter timeline. Physically painful. The ignorance of sapphic history, the erasure of ball culture, and someone bringing up that fucking stag/doe chart.

[saintaegon]

people are so weird for actively obsessing over tgc’s relationship status because of a story his FRIEND posted on instagram that was NOT posted for the sake of parasocial discourse and speculation.

anyway. i’m unsure what countries practice “stag dos” but the best man arranges a stag do …. so ???? deduce from that what u will. it’s absolutely none of anyone’s business what he does in his private life. those twitter accounts are annoying stalking his friends. leave the man alone.

[ocean-sapphics]

what are ocean sapphics? & flags!

'ocean' is the umbrella grouping term for presentation labels that lesbian & bi/pan sapphics can use regarding femininity, masculinity, and androgyny.

these terms were initially coined by strwbryfemme on twitter, using their gimmick account sapphicimagines back in january of 2022. both accounts have since been deactivated and therefore this thread is long gone. i found them in an old flag hoard album on my camera roll recently and decided to respectfully reupload them in case anyone else would enjoy.

NOTE #1: i will not be putting the rest of this, admittedly quite long, post under a ‘read more’ cut due to the fact that all the information would be lost if someone decided to reblog it and the original post ended up gone sometime in the future. you would not be able to view anything under it, since whatever is there can only be seen on the original page. i apologize if you have to scroll a lot because of this, but that’s unfortunately one of the many inconvenient ways tumblr works.

NOTE #2 (MUST READ): i felt it would be best to swap their usage of 'pearl' to mean masc, not androgyne. this is because these chosen words feel unbalanced in their meanings to me. 'ocean' feels too broad and vague to cover just one category (hence why i made it overarching instead), and doesn't fit its place in the hierarchy of the theme. it'd be like saying, for example: 'cat' is fem, 'animal' is masc, and 'dog' is androgynous; instead of saying 'cat' is fem, 'dog' is masc, and 'furry' (lmao idk ok? bear with me) is androgynous. i then turned what was previously 'pearl' into 'coral' as a replacement, since that made more sense from my perspective. if this confuses you while reading the tweets below, i have put my corrections for the labels/flags in alt text, which you can click on each image to access. if that doesn't help, feel free to ask questions. i tried to make this as easy and least complex as possible, so i apologize if that didn't work.

NOTE #3: if cat (strwbryfemme) and/or atlas (ilikegaycookies, who designed the bi flags btw) finds this and would like me to take it down, i will do so upon request, directly or indirectly, and also delete this blog. i intend no disrespect to either of you and i'm posting this because i like your ideas and don't want them to rot and be forgotten anymore than they already have. i edited the words themselves because i thought they would fit better, but i can also revert them back to their original versions if need be.

with that out of the way, let’s get onto the flags first!

sapphic:

lesbian:

bisexual:

information (REMINDER THAT I HAVE RE-COINED A COUPLE OF TERMS. READ ALT TEXT TO KNOW WHICH WORDS TO SWAP OUT WHEN READING THE SCREENSHOTS!):

any and all help with IDs/PTs are appreciated! i do not have the spoons to write them out as of now due to the rest of the work i'm putting into this post, but if someone wants to volunteer then i can put all the text into a rentry (or multiple) and edit it here to make the images more accessible to disabled readers. thank you!

here is some more stuff i would like to add (please also read these too if you are interested in claiming, or even if you are not on board with all this):

you should keep in mind that i am a white tme bi sapphic who knows my history and claims 'butch', so i will not argue about butch/femme discourse because i strongly support the terms not being lesbian-exclusive. however, it should be understood that i still know my place and privilege regarding other applicable aspects and do not wish to offend anyone or start discourse here. this post is simply a reupload and attempt at re-suggesting cute terms for personal use only, entirely by choice. they are not designed to be forced on anyone or become mainstream, especially not to replace femme/butch/futch or even the infamous doe/stag/tomcat. you do not have to like these or agree with them. you are allowed to dismiss the idea and move on as it wasn't made to erase or hurt anyone. please hold anyone who does spread these in bad faith accountable, thanks.

with that being said, it is my opinion that we should grant their wishes for wanting to keep this series exclusive to the sapphic community. i do not personally consider either of these individuals to be overall 'bad people', even if we disagree on some things heavily. they still deserve respect for the positive contributions they have made to our community, which is why, again, i will remove all of the above without hesitation if asked by a credible messenger.

one last thing to be reminded of ─ if anyone else ends up playing around with the theme of these terms + flags, for any given reason (such as designing pan/trans/enby/etc. versions), please do not use the word 'fish', especially if you are also white, as that already exists within a Black-exclusive context to be a cultural identity adjacent to 'femme'! i will not speak or give an opinion about what to do or not if you are Black, as i'm sure you will be able to take it from there.

this is not necessary to read, so you can stop now lol ─ anyway, thank you for your attention, and enjoy! reblogs are appreciated, and comments will be listened to. if you have any complaints directed towards the content itself, then i unfortunately cannot help you with that as said content is not really mine. however, i will try to respond to stuff related to my act of reuploading and/or adjusting the terminology. remember that i self-identify as butch and am critical of coining ideas with a similar purpose to doe/stag, but obviously i am not against it. as long as you can understand my point of view, your opinions will matter, even if they (respectfully!) dissent. have a lovely rest of your day/night!

[suburbanblkgirll]

Does anyone remember those bisexual terms stag, tomcat and doe that caused a bunch of discourse on Twitter in 2020-21 😭 is that bisexual lost media now

[aprofessionalwithoutstandards]

back again, completely agree. to be honest any part of queer history can be a bit of a mixed bag with foresight involved, such as the one you mentioned of bi women can’t be butch, but also older issues of “you can only be straight or gay” before bisexuality was actually fully understood as an actual thing. also the bi women butch thing confuses me personally because if i recall right, historically gay men have also used the butch/femme labels too. but whatever we’re gonna save you the infodump ramble lol, have a nice day man -tf2 heritage posts

No literally yeah ur right, "butch" and "femme" are not lesbian exclusive labels and discourse about it is almost always surrounded by a whole bunch of bull about how bi women are self-centered faker sluts who want to poison Real Lesbian Spaces with their man residue or whatever. I brought it up to refer to the specific revival of that discourse in like. the mid/late-2010s (I'd say 2016-2018/9? At least that's when I was in it lmao) when someone invented the terms "stag", "doe", and "tomcat" to "replace"/"be the bi versions of" the terms "butch", "femme", and "futch", respectively. It's a shit mindset and I'm glad I'm out of it but I do kind of miss "tomcat" if I'm being real, it's a non-bear animal-themed identifier and I think it's cute. Maybe it's one of those things that I can ✨reclaim✨

[bi-sapphics]

i firmly believe that assuming a woman is building her gender presentation, solely for men because she has even the slightest attraction to them, is misogynist. sorry, but no, full stop. we don't exist for men. talking very specifically about butchness, we will be seen as ugly, as disgusting, as too mannish for most straight men, do people really think we even get into average straight misogynist transphobic lesbophobic men? that we turn into feminine pretty frilly straight girls whenever we may like a man? the whole debate on the butch part of butch femme discourse to me is extremely coercive, dare i say, with corrective undertones if you get what i mean. sorry for the long ask, your blog keeps being the space i needed when i just got into butchness, i feel you understand.

!!!

[fefrezi]

hello dave and bambi-ians of twitter now tumblr here are my (and harvey ech0mo’s) main ocs also non dnb followers here are the guys i sometimes tag about under the cut to be nice to your dashboards

zambo - born in a wet cardboard box all alone. humanaboo magician with schizophrenia and several other disorders. lacks hands entirely. learned magic in response to being bullied, and to help with their disability. in the process changed their biology so much to the point where they formed an entirely new subspecies of bamboids, in addition to changing their blood and other bodily fluids color to match their magic. they/he pronouns

sidney - zambos malewife. neckromancer, blood magic manipulator. also a vampire. likes to bite. talks somewhat verbosely. whore. goes around murdering people with zambo, its fun. can turn his cape into wings. taught that by zambo. he/it pronouns

thinbi - zambos best friend. funny silly guy. can be a cartoon in real life and make squeaky noises. its cute. engaged to bibo. british. can clone himself but the clones dont really do much at all. zambo possesses him to kill people but he doesnt know that. impervious to physical harm due to being a minor deity born to mortals. taught others about origin forms. overall just a guy. he/they pronouns

bibo - comedian. thinbi’s husband. literally just a normal guy. however he likes to make horrible concoctions of food like jello salad. that kind of horrible. gulpinkin (pokemon) kin. can change his face to whatever as long as it looks doodley and funny. thinbi calls him bobo and he calls thinbi bibi. does commissions. he/they pronouns (despite being a cis man)

bambert - pathetic little man. announcer/referee combobob. happily married to bambrute. masochist, mostly for pain by them and others he finds attractive. serial cheater, flirts with Anyone he thinks can maim him. wife literally incapable of jealousy, doesnt matter. bunny. dot eyes under his glasses. allergic to many many things. kinda a pissbaby. he/they pronouns, but prefers being referred to by name

bambrute - the only woman ever (kinda, theyre agender and genderfluid both). bamboxs rival, champion of BDBA. kinda a bully. no actually fully a bully. not a good sportsman (sportswoman), plays rather dirty. likes feminine nouns like wife but has a masculine identity (gay man). worlds first cishet gay couple with bambert. bear. cannot grasp the concept of jealousy whatsoever. she/they/he pronouns (first two preferred)

bambox - himbo boxer. bambrutes rival. always runner up never champion. likes to grill burgers and eat sloppy joes. kinda a dad. doesnt get memes, but posts minion memes. afraid of five nights at freddys and baldis basics. also afraid of flying. one of thinbis dads. he/they pronouns

bambug - stag beetle. bamboxs lover. bamberts nemesis (bambert is not aware of this.) literally sexist (is disgusted by and despises sex. hates people who have sex). blue blood. acts like sakura katana chan kinda. thinbis other papa. hates zambo and sidney too, thinks theyre terrible to thinbi. yandere. internet discourser. he/it pronouns that is all of the main guys lawl

[lighthousenewsnetwork]

LONDON - In a development that has left fans fuming and owls in therapy, a critical plot hole the size of a Hungarian Horntail egg has been unearthed in the beloved Harry Potter series. The revelation? The seemingly inexplicable absence of Patronus charms in Dumbledore's fight against He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. "It just doesn't make sense!" cried Mildred Pinchwhistle, a self-proclaimed "Potterhead" and owner of a suspiciously large collection of Bertie Bott's Every-Flavour Beans. "Dumbledore, the man who could knit a scarf so intricate it could predict the weather, couldn't conjure a little stag to chase away a greasy-haired git with a snake obsession?" Experts are baffled. Renowned "armchair Auror" Barry Periwinkle theorizes that Dumbledore must have simply forgotten the spell in the heat of battle. "Maybe he was distracted by Voldemort's truly atrocious taste in robes," Periwinkle mused, stroking his carefully-maintained beard. "Dark wizards these days, no sense of style at all." Others propose more outlandish explanations. Conspiracy theorist Griselda Tutshill, known for her belief that house-elves are secretly running Hogwarts, suggests Dumbledore was a closet Death Eater all along. "He never did trust house-elves," Tutshill pointed out with a suspicious glint in her eye. "Clearly, he was in cahoots with the whole lot of them!" More level-headed fans have proposed alternative uses for the Patronus charm. Perhaps Dumbledore simply used it to order a takeaway curry after a particularly stressful day of battling dark wizards. Or maybe he cast a Patronus stag every night to keep away the particularly aggressive gnomes plaguing Hogwarts' vegetable patch. Meanwhile, some fans have taken a more philosophical approach. "Maybe the true magic wasn't in the Patronus, but in Dumbledore's unwavering belief in a teenage boy with questionable glasses," mused Harold Featherbottom, a man who unironically wears a Hogwarts scarf year-round. "Just think, if Dumbledore had blasted Voldemort with a stag, Harry wouldn't have gotten his hero moment!" Indeed, the implications of this plot hole are vast. Does it cast doubt on the entire wizarding education system? Was Dumbledore a terrible teacher who neglected to properly train his students in basic Patronus-casting? Or was he simply a master strategist, playing a long game that involved letting a scrawny teenager take down a Dark Lord? The debate rages on, with #DumbledoreGate trending on all major social media platforms. Fans are urged to share their own outlandish theories and engage in spirited online discourse. Remember, folks, a healthy dose of skepticism is key, even in the magical world! Just don't get too hung up on it, or you might find yourself muttering spells under your breath and accidentally turning your goldfish into a ferret. P.S. In a shocking turn of events, J.K. Rowling herself has taken to Twitter, claiming the entire series was a fever dream she had after eating a particularly potent batch of chocolate frogs. We'll have more on this developing story as it unfolds.

[radicalromanov]

i think it probably came from butch being a specific role played by a lesbian in & out of relationships, and online more people wanted a word to refer to bi women with a generally "masculine" style/vibe. there are also tomboyish/masculine lesbians who see butch as being a strict role that they don't identify with. i think honestly i'd rather see "masc" being thrown about and diluted online than "butch". butch was always a niche lesbian thing.

That's a really good point. I know there are the terms stag and doe for bi women, but maybe those have fallen out of favor - I may be bi but I am thoroughly out of the loop. It is definitely annoying to see the term butch diluted, like being used by a bi woman or used to describe a woman who still wears makeup and dresses femininely.

I also remember some discourse a few years back where some lesbian radfems were staying butch & femme had to go together, there was no butch & butch or femme & femme, but I don't have a dog in that fight so I don't even know

[delgado-master]

I don't know a lot about the transandophobia discourse so excuse me if this is just the same comparison repeated but the whole nonverbal/nonspeaking thing just reminds me of the whole division in the lesbian community a while back where they basically tried to say lesbianism was ONLY this specific xyz thing, and if you weren't that, you had to use other terms (I think shit like trixic / doe / stag came from this era?) and it was all under the guise of "well the lesbian tag isn't just lesbians anymore" which... Yeah that sucks. I can agree that sucks.

I mean damn, I'm not opposed to changing vocabulary when needed. I started using polyam instead of poly as a shortened term when Polynesian folks spoke up about it. But this feels like a broad spectrum term is being taken and crushed down to its narrowest view, and everyone outside of that is left floundering to figure out where they're supposed to go now.

And I don't mean this as a dig in any way, but I do kind of struggle to follow what's being said by a lot of the blogs discussing this, for whatever reason irregular/unfamiliar speech patterns are hard to parse, so I feel like a lot of it is getting lost in translation, at least for me personally? I don't know, the whole thing just seems unnecessary.

Much of Modern Lesbianism is heavily based on exclusionism (bisexual lesbians have repeatedly been kicked out of the community because they’re *impure* or whatever), so like, that shit doesn’t surprise me. The fact that lesbian tends to mean “a women who only likes women” is an act of exclusionism. Not even bringing up the Transphobia of it all.

Changing terminology is fine and all for people who can speak normally, but when you (even sometimes) use AAC to speak, you can’t change your terminology as easily, and sometimes can’t change it at all. You have to use what’s given to you. This has real life consequences: autistic children and adults frequently are abused, and the abusers get away with it because the children literally don’t have the words available to them to describe their abuse.

You’d think that aac users would understand this sort of thing, as they’re using aac to communicate their exclusionism. But I think they think that if someone can sometimes speak, they have no reason to use aac. Which is shit.

[fightingnonsense]

It's not that bad I have seen people being nastier here on tumblr🥴 The butch/femme "discourse" is just now quite unfamilliar territory as I always have been under the impression that they were for bisexual women too. I have a very hard time finding sources saying otherwise and I have never heard any lesbian speaking up about it. If anybody know of articles or statements from lesbians regarding this topic plesse tell!! Not just for me now, but also so I can use it for reference to others later!

I am fairly new to the radfem community and I do find it a bit difficult finding reliable sources in the lgbt community, since so many people seem to just make stuff up.

(also stag/doe possibly being tumblr made terms icks me off even more😭 I'd rather have bi women being refered to as nothing then. No butch, no stag, no tomcat, nothing)

Old ask so I’m just putting it out there.

[hollowwhisperings]

Margaery would introduce Sansa to the World of RPF Tourneys: she needs help returning "RoseStorm" to its Top Position in the Embroidery Circuit, threatened by in-fandom discourse on "RPF shipping" and "does Lord Renly even joust".

Ser Loras fans often show up to his tourneys, waving hand-embroidered pennants & banners bearing his likeness with the sigils of whomever they ship him with (most fans can't be bothered with actually doing a bunch of stags & just use Royal Colours: it also helps keep Normies from wondering Why In The Seven's Name fans of Ser Loras Tyrell keep "forgetting" what House he hails from).

After someone's Crack Ship of Ser Ilyn & Ser Jaime started a "Kingsguards" Renaissance era in the fandom, the Greatest Threat of all usurped "RoseStorm" as Most Embroidered Ship: "RoseLion".

Marge is, of course Indignant at her Favourite Ship being displaced for a Lannister and recruited Sansa specifically for her exquisite embroidering skills: the two shared Sewing Circles at Court, prompting Marge to "commission" Sansa to design a plethora of new "RoseStorm" patterns for favours & pennants. Sansa, enchanted by giving "purpose" to her embroidery, soon became Fully Immersed in all things Tourney (give or take the Actual Combat of events, the martial details & grisly consequences of "poor sportsmanship").

(that a Drop in Popularity of Marge's Sponsored Ship threatens her likelihoods of "inheriting" her Grandmother Olenna's role as "Matriarch" of the RPF Jousting Fandom¹, possibly losing it to cousins Hightower or Fossoway or, worse still, Tyrells that aren't Margaery? Totally "Unrelated" to Marge's prompt reaction to "RoseStorm" losing popular esteem.)

Ser Jaime has been the "Most Shippable" knight in the Tourney Fandom for decades, though he has more recently³ become established as "One Of Us". In his youth, "DayLion" was popular (mostly in its platonic form, given each knight's status in the pro-circuits but There Are Always Shippers).

Nowadays, a post-Tourney Ser Jaime is oft surrounded by Fandom Veterans (younger fans warned off, enlisting "Aunts" in their stead). They bestow unto him "in memoriam" favours (old & new) for the otherwise extinct "SunStar", "StarPrince", "PrinceRoost", & "PrincePrince" sub-fandoms of his early knighthood. This "fleetcraft" is more readily received by the knight than his favours of his own likeness (though kerchiefs lovingly emblazoned with iconography of Ser Jaime's More Popular Pairings have ended up being "seen" on the man, stationed as he is At Court, generally when at the Training Grounds).

Fans, as a rule, are generally Tactful in which favours they would Gift to their favourite knights: while "Legendary Battles Past" are as common a Theme in Fleetcraft as casual RPF shipping (romantic & otherwise): the modern fandom was, afterall, Founded For Political Purposes².

A Notable Incident was Ser Jaime setting a Most Distasteful "LionMount" pennant he received on fire but, again, Most Fans agreed that such a Reaction was Deserved for its Poor Taste.

A lot of the fandom isn't so much into the RPF "romantic" shipping as they are into the rivalries. This has Inspired many a Crackship (though discussion or depiction of the Worst Rivalries are generally Reserved for tje privacy of one's own Sewing Circle).

The late Prince Rhaegar had always been "Controversial" in the fandom, Veteran Tourney-goers quick to point out the Historicity of Tourneys rigging jousts in the favour of Princes in general⁴.

"The Slam Dunk of 209" was Huge, not only for its Spotlighting the Above "Tourney Rigging?" debaye but due to the many infamous aspects of the Tourney at Ashford Meadow in general. It was the Most Infamous Tourney for generations: young fans like Margaery sometimes argue with Other, non-Dornish fans on whether "Harrenhal, 281" could contest "Ashford, 209" in Infamy (Northern fans are less of an "issue" given their lacking a "Local Scene" & their Sewing Circles tending to be more Pragmatically Minded anyway). Ashford, it is generally argued, is the "superior" Scandal: featured the First Known Appearance of Ser Duncan the Tall, a Trial of Seven, the deaths of two beloved champions (one of them a Crown Prince!), AND a Blackfyre Rebellion. Furthermore, it is said in Hushed Tones, it was said that Lord Bloodraven himself arrived on scene and knew that the local Tourney Circles would be Best Informed on all Happenings! Why, Lady [x]'s Great-Aunt's Cousin's Goodsister had been personally requested by Lord Brynden to see to the Proper Tellings of the Tourney & Trial, that her Circle's crafts and Influence could more truthfully relay the Goings On to the greater Circuit! Bloodraven, says [Y]'s Great-Aunt the Septa who heard by way of her Senior at the Great Sept of Baelor who served then-Lady Attendant [Z] who knew the man's sister Gwenys personally, even suggested several Patterns that might serve to Honour the Deceased: [A]'s Good-Aunt's still wears her Late Mother's kerchief, that she might spare a prayer for good Sers Hardyng & Beesbury⁶, who so valliantly fought for Young Ser Duncan and a Common Maiden's Virtue!

Likewise, Prince Rhaegar's "success" at Harrenhal is oft considered similarly "rigged" to his favour: none of this explains, to RPF Jousting Fans why exactly the Silver Prince promptly made himself a Social Pariah by publically shaming his pregnant wife for an otherwise unknown Northern girl of but five-and-ten⁵.

House Tyrell boasts a wide collection of antique favours from the Ashford Meadow Tourney (sometimes they are brought out to be Showcased at Fleet Events of Particular "Prestige"), "favours" passed down by friends & kinfolk who were There (supporting then-Lord Leo Tyrell, of course, and members of maternal houses). Highgarden does not (publically) have any such "collection" for "Harrenhal, 281". That would be Unbecoming.

All of this, Margaery would regale to Sansa and her Northern friends at Court (Jeyne Poole & Beth Cassel). Arya, of course, would huff in the corner that all their "shipping" and "pennants" take away from the "fun" of Live Combat: nevertheless, Septa Mordane notes that Arya's stitches are somewhat tidier than usual.

Unspoken are the other "nature" of Ships: Olenna's Leading Ship was "JD". Said ship belonged to Ser Jeremy Norridge... & Olenna's Intended but Unwanted Prince, Daeron Targaryen (4thborn child of Aegon V & Queen Betha Blackwood). Given that both squired at Highgarden, where young Olenna likely attended Sewing Circles & banquet events, their budding romance would become Obvious to her eyes. Reclaiming her "agency" in a match where she was unwanted but could not personally break off (a 4thborn Targaryen was still a Prince, afterall), Olenna instead turned Female Opinion to her "side" by preparing for Said Match to inevitably be broken off. If a "great and forbidden romance" had been Privately Championed by a Complicit Betrothed, surely the girl in question was of Unquestionable Honour & Virtue? Utterly Innocent in the breaking of her betrothal, still a Fine Match for any future Lord.

That young Margaery has found herself in a Similar Position to her grandmother inspired much of their closeness: the prospect of an Open Marriage to enable her Brother's Great Love is not, to Marge's eyes, a significant hardship. She would, afterall, gain reign of a significant portion of the Stormlands (all of it, eventually, Marge would conclude: Lady Selyse did herself no favours in being "aloof") and no small degree of Sway at Court.

Sansa, as the Lord Hand's daughter and one Tragically Unbetrothed (through no fault of her own), there having been some Unfortunate Business with her Intended Princ, a Lord Baelish, several Freys (through isolated yet somewhat concrrrent "Tragedies") and some Alleged Son of Lord Bolton: all very suddenly, very incidentally rendered Deceased before the King's Carriage had even stepped foot past The Crossing.!

Sansa, thusly, may take her time blushing as Marge takes her to Observe their brothers in the Training Yards (a shame that Robb, Jon & little Rickon stayed at Winterfell: Bran has truly taken his new training to heart, though Theon remains Rather Skittish for Some Reason). The boys, of course, are somewhat informed on "Tourney Girls" being genuinely Informed on their Upcoming Opportunities and Prospective Rivals: they are, again, somewhat Confused as to what Naval Warfare has to do with the Mêlée or Joust (Theon doesn't either but could swear that those Reacher girls were using their words to Intend Violence at the Ironborn in their midst).

Arya, encouraged by the Dornish contingent arriving to Court (her Lord Father had made a resigned Joke⁷ that King Robert decided to Actually Act On), has taken to the Training Grounds too: she has been [bribed⁸] to Secrecy on the Deeper Meanings of Sewing Circles as she "wrestles in mud with her kin". Arya has also been [bribed⁸] into enticing the Dashing Brienne to attend a Circle: as a would-be knight herself, Lady Brienne would surely Know Much of the Tourney Circuit & be of Invaluable Uae to [their betting pool⁸].

So... Jousting & Mêlée; "Fleetcrafts" & Official [Fanzines]; Politics & Histories; Platonic Shipping & Actual [Yaoi]. These can exist in-setting to enable Sansa to reach her True [Fujoshi] Potential.

As the archetypical "Perfect Lady", having a new fandom to navigate beside her sister would smoothe any hostilities within their Sewing Circle: Sansa knows House Words & Sigils by heart, can embroider the likeness of even the most difficult coats-of-arms, and "blushes prettily" at even the most innocently-intended favours (to the likes of Great-Uncle Blackfish, little Rickon or the Fandom's [Assumed as Asexual] Darling Ser Jaime). Arya, meanwhile, has the Inside Scoop from the Yards & quickly learns the Logistics of Armouring, of Live Combat. Both sisters are considered Experts, their Differences complementing a "shared interest". Envy & rivalries would still naturally arise: they are children. Yet now the girls have an oulet, creatively⁹ &/or intellectually to redirect emotions running high.

With "Tourney Girls" as a Thing, the women of [Southron] Westeros are more "interconnected": able to exchange Daily Gossip ("Father said the Smith's Boy looks like the King: why don't his Sons-?" "SHH! We Don't Talk About The Hair, not in the Keep: just know the Senior Circles are Working On It, okay? Tell the Lord Hand as much too."); Health Tips (e.g. "if your maester suggests [x-uncomfsortable & genuinely dangerous thing to do during childbirth], your maester ought to be sent back to the Citadel!"); local business (e.g. Baelish setting up shop in the area, despite the Local Lady being on Agreeable Terms with the Local Madam of the Existing Establishment, whose Girls like Tourneys as much as any highborn & who've Seen that Baelish's Girls are girls: the Lady checks with Other Ladies, whose relations with local Madama might be of less cordiality but who are United in Tourney Enjoyment & thusly "on-board" with That Specfic Madam... and Highborn Women Getting Angry enough to together "fundraise" the Hiring of A Braavosi)... they would be Connected not only through Marriages and Shared Fealties but through an Active Community that encompasses Many Parts of Westeros as "Adjacent" to... Athletic Men Hitting Each Other With Sticks (from Horseback! for the Obligatory Horse Enthusiast section of the Fandom, "entry" point of Many Tourney Girls' time in the Fandom).

Ser Jaime being a "Tourney Darling" would alleviate how isolating his time alone in the Red Keep was: Princess Elia's uncle was Kingsguard & her own husband "in the circuit". She'd be a Tourney Girl for her family & the Politics of it, if nothing else. Guarding Princess Elia & her Ladies (prior to their Slowly Being Evacuated from Court) gives Young Jaime "allies", of a sort: not entirely left to the thrall of his Father & Sister in Memory (Jaime, Tourney Darling who'd regularly Sees Tourney Girls active on the Scene: why are strange women both younger & older than I more interested in my Life's Work than mine own sister?). Thusly, though the Exact Parentage of Queen Cersei's children is still "Uncertain", Ser Jaime grows up with Better Social Awareness of Females & more reason to Not Be The Evil he is Cast As: other men call him "kingslayer" but old women, young girls & married women? He is a "Darling" of their Sport, a boy they've seen "grow up"... & a boy whom Elia's Ladies feared for, after their being Sent from Court to Safety. As little as such sporadic interactions may have been, a Jaime [platonically] "beloved" by a Fandom is Significantly Less Likely to Avoid Anyone Unrelated to him, take his twin's words at face value & secretly meet her in a Tower where a Small Child might be Defenestrated.

But, for the Starklings at least, the Setting Is Happier: Lyanna's Hypothetical Involvement with Tourney Girls may well have "spared" her, to an extent, with the likes of Ashara Dayne (sister to Ser Arthur & Known Friend of Princess Elia) quicker to "reach out" upon Learninf Her Whereabouts & better able to do so (even from all the way across an Active Warzone).

Catelyn, though less "involved" with Tourneys (being first her siblings' surrogate caregiver & then a Northern Bride), would at least "Know Of" the Community & that Ascertaining her Husband's Character (his Whereabouts) would be a simple thing. The Girls who grew up with Ned in the Vale? The Girls hosting Rebel Forces on Campaign? The Girls in Dorne smuggling Ned home to her with a newborn babe & Ned's dying sister ("just giving you a head's up, Lady Catelyn, given your recent Labour & all")? All can confirm: Ned is Too Hopeless & Too Honourable for Infidelity ("Tell Ned not to worry about the Treason Thing: we Girls have Rookeries of our own & Your Ned did the Realm a Service we won't soon forget").

So. In-Setting [Fujoshi] Sansa: Mission Accomplished? Sansa's Happiness kind of required the Assassinations of several characters, so as to keep her family alive & her friends "safe", as well as the Building of A Not-Entirely Secret Women's Society?

It Got Political through its Core Members very obviously being Olenna & Marge: both have High Social Capital and Vested Interests in the "Management" of Gay Knights. As someone highborn (& a literal child), "Gay Knights" are more accessible for Sansa than, for example, "Queer Pirates". Given that there isn't any Northern Woman in Sansa's life other than Old Nan & that the Night's Watch is not a "public" institution but an Active Army? The Manderly sisters may have "tried" to set up a Northern-Equivalent to the Southron Tourney Circles, using the NW or "sailors?" (the Ironborn are too often a Threat for "gay pirates" to get Romanticized) but... they'd have too little to work with.

Hope you enjoyed this Thought Experiment? ^_^;

Footnotes

¹Olenna is the Big Name Fan of the RPF Jousting Fandom who coined the term "ship": while Marge tells Sansa that her Grandmother's Interest in "tourneys" had always been Pure Politics, Olenna's Rebellion against her Unwanted Betrothal (to Prince Daeron, grand-nephew of The Late & Great Prince Baelor Breakspear) imvolved the Recruitment/[bribing] of enough highborn ladies, cloths merchants, Septs (& teaching septas) that Olenna's Influence was Vast & Inescapable.

Olenna "organized" the fanbase: her launching her own "Redwyne Fleet" included Nobly Sanctioned Patterns & "gifted" Sewing Booklets², provided at her own Sewing Circles & Functions but also through "Outreach"[/Bribery & Blackmail] to Septs & Associates in the Textiles Trade. Olenna ensured her "Fleetware" swept throughout the Sewing Circles of Westeros, establishing her Dominance of the Scene (& its Usefulness in shifting Public Opinions).

²These Booklets acted as "subsitute teachers" for Sewing Circles without an "Enlightened" Septa to guide them or who wish to be more "contemporary" in their Knowings of the Tourney Circuit (especially if unable to travel to most events themselves). The Booklets are manuals on such things as: the House Colours & Coats-of-Arms of Lesser Known Houses; the specific Shields worn by the more prolific Knights; ettiquette on "Acceptable Tourney Behaviour", so as to prevent any Marital Misunderstandings or Slights on Personal Virtue; the pros/cons of being in Closer Proximity to Live Combat, including Advice on how best to Excuse Oneself ("swoon" is the go-to) & to whence upon Seeing Something Gruesome & requiring [a place to cry/throw up]... a Whole Page was added, post-Rebellion, specificall to Warn Tourney-Goers of Ser Gregor Clegane. New editions circulate with some regularity though most make-do with copying the Booklets of others for personal use (there are, of course, Verses & "ditties" that aid in The Memorizing of House Arms & Words... but most are non-Tourney related, "Standard" within any Highborn Nursery: it is Unbecoming to require a Nursery Tune when seeking to Impress Highborn Peers in Crafts & Informed Contributions to Gossip).

³There was a Minor Incident wherein a Tyrell Cousin almost Outed the fandom to Queen Cersei through casual conversation with Princess Myrcella. All was "saved" by the Gallant Intervention of Ser Jaime... who had genuinely believed the Maidens Talks of Jousting & Knightly Rivalries were only about Actual Jousting (& also Naval Warfare, for some reason). Jaime has since become a "Protected Party" in the Wider Fandom, something Written In to the "Tourney Ettiquette" sections of Fleet Booklets.

⁴Prince Valarr Targaryen, a reigning Champion at "Ashford, 209" was both Celebrated and Scorned: his consecutive victories being against less established knights or from Houses Known to Curry Favour.

⁵There was little to no intersection between the RPF Jousting Fandom & anyone Northern, besides the odd Ser Jorah Mormont, until Lady Catelyn Tully's installment as Lady of Winterfell: most Sewing Circles only discuss the North when comparing its wools to that from the Reach or Riverlands, otherwise ignoring the Kingdom (save for the Inevitable Instance of One Younger Girl ever needing to be Taught that no Blackwood is ever to called "knight" or "Ser").

⁶It is, of course, Not Done to (publically) Mourn any bearer of the name "Targaryen". Unless one is in The Reach, of course, where the Faith is strongest (& no one's Ruling Lords are... "sensitive" to the subject of Targaryen Princes of Gallant Tragedy)... and where few Families suffered Great Tragedy by the personal doings of Persons "Targaryen".

⁷"Having brought the Wolves from their Northern Den", it is alleged that Lord Ned said, "why not bring too the Princes from the Far South and the Old Lord of the East? Perhaps all combined they might release the Keep from the burden of its being Besieged by the West."

⁸Arya was bribed with having her homework sewn for her; secret mendings of the various tears that had befallen the dresses her Lord Mother had so Hopefully brought for her stay at Court & in the knees of too many sets of hose; a tunic in the Dornish style , should Brienne be successfully brought to their Circle before anyone else can beat them to it.

The "betting pool" consists of pearls and myrish lace from Sansa & Arya's stayover at White Harbour, silk flowers bought from artisans at Highgarden, sundry spools of Fanciful Colours & textures, some of Lady's shed fur: things the girls might share anyway and which they could use for projects both RPF Jousting & "personal" (gifts for each other, for kinsfolk, for crafting favours for non-fandom purposes).

⁹That Sansa can sing well could Establish her to the "Wider Fandom" (just as Arya's Match Commentary would): like IRL sport, I'd guess that (non-Northern) Houses would acquire "anthems" traditionally sung in Support of their Lords & Kinsfolk. Some knights would likely Commision a bard to compose one for them: "Tourney Girls" might surprise a Favourite by having prepared several Circles to learn a song in their Honour (the intergenerational nature of the Real Persons Fandom [of] Tourney[s] lessening any potential for Scandal as any specfic female is made "anonymous" beside Great-Aunts, variously "aware" younger cousins, & said knight's own mother).

idk man im sad sansa exists as a 13 year old in the asoiafverse instead of our world. being 13 is like peak fujoshi age she wouldve loved yaoi i think she wouldve made a great yuri on ice fan or whatever