#deep magic

[raayllum]

Immortality & Longevity in TDP

Because season 7 brought up some very interesting Threads to contrast with the series' previous sentiments on immortality / ridiculously long lifespans. So let's go.

Those Who Naturally Live Forever(-ish)

There are three main camps of characters who experience longevity in TDP.

Those who experience it naturally, but can still die (the Archdragons, some elves)

Those who acquire it through dark magic means

Those who cannot permanently die (the First Elves, Aaravos)

I want to talk about the Group Number One first, because it includes the most characters and was the basis for this meta. Besides Lujanne and Akiyu, we don't know too many elves who have lived for hundreds of plus years, although it wouldn't surprise me if Aditi did. Lujanne and Akiyu are both mages as well, with Lujanne living at the most powerful concentration of Moon magic in the world, so that could be part of the reason why she's lived so long, and Tidebound elves (as Finnegrin had Sea Legs' sister for 40+ years) just naturally live much longer than other types of elves (Moonshadow, Sunfire) as far as we know.

The Archdragons themselves also don't talk much about the length of their lives, since it's a species-shared trait and so second nature to them. However, whenever they do talk about it, we get a very clear picture:

It's not exactly... positive. Now, some of this is because of their mental states. Sol Regem lost his beloved mate a thousand years ago, lost his position as the king of the dragons, and been effectively cut off from Xadia's political sphere / the other archdragons for a long time. Rex Igneous is similarly isolated (though it seems more self-inflicted) and we know he had a previous falling out with Avizandum (presumably over Zubeia). We also see Zubeia grow increasingly listless both times she falls ill / almost loses her family (S3, 5x09) so it seems that despite being very rare and accordingly isolationist, Archdragons don't tend to do well alone and without families (understandably).

But the verdict seemingly from at least 2/4ish known archdragons is that

In this way, the Archdragons' view of their quasi-immortality isn't that different from how Aaravos views his literal one:

The stars have never smiled upon their creations. This world was made by cruel, unfeeling hands. It is an instrument of pain, of torment. To exist within this world is to suffer. Even death is no reprieve.

So what about the characters who disagree to the point of doing terrible things so that they can exist forever?

Kpp'ar and Kim'Dael (Crafted Immortality)

Although there's only two characters in the "dark magic induced immortality" category, they paint two such completely different pictures that, in many ways, it shows the full spectrum of just how one can achieve an unnatural immortality.

On the one hand, we have Kim'Dael, who takes dark magic's canonically to its long believed natural conclusion of cannibalism. Kim'Dael takes parts (blood) from magical creatures (in this case, elves) and consumes it to enhance her own abilities and her livelihood. This doesn't always mean fully killing and draining someone, but often can (Bloodmoon Huntress) with multiple individuals / sometimes whole families at a time as she must experience semi-regular rejuvenation; it is unknown if she needs to eat or consume anything else in her day-to-day life.

Her magic use was also confirmed to be a form of dark magic in this interview:

the way that she does, is beyond primal magic. She’s found ways through dark magic to extend her primal moon powers. It’s very evil how she is able to do what she does and extend her life

Despite the dragons who don't have to work to be immortal being far more despondent about their long, long lives, it's not hard to think of reasons why Kim'Dael would want to be immortal. Death is a scary unknown, she (like Finnegrin) is out of tune with her primal knowingness on a fundamental level, and she can do so without harm to herself. Like most dark mages we've seen, her dark magic use requires using and taking from the people around her more, accordingly, than it's taking from her. She takes from others to give herself power: dark magic 101.

Kpp'Ar's search for immortality is way fucking weirder, IMO. It's not necessarily that dark mages, or dark magic, never uses the caster's body for spells. It inherently saps energy (hence the white streaks, nosebleeds, collapsing, etc) and drains life from the body; each spell harms the caster in at least a small way. It's also not like we've never seen a dark mage use their own body parts for a spell; Claudia uses and drinks her own blood mixed into the pentapus ink in 5x09, and Viren mutilates his own heart in 6x08 rather than use someone else's.

It's just, that if Kim'Dael has a way to chase immortality that does mean using somebody else's body... why on earth would you use your own?

It seems that before his change of heart, Kpp'Ar was experimenting with one of the darkest of all magics. A way of extending life. Indefinitely. A horrible and strange kind of immortality. The ancient and disturbing practice of self-eating.

Now, some of this may come down to access or skillset. Presumably Kim'Dael could drink human blood and use it for her spells, since the arcanum of the elf she's drinking from doesn't seem to matter. However, even if you can use human blood, Kpp'Ar at this point was older and used a cane (if we assume this was a later in life pursuit, and not over decades); he likely wasn't going to be able to kidnap and haul back anyone but children back to Puzzle House, and while we know he's willing to sacrifice children (6x06) it's not canonically clear if he's willing to use them.

Either way, we know Kpp'Ar was pursuing immortality as well as the location of the Garden of Innocents concurrently. We don't know if this was interrelated, but we do know that unicorns are connected to the Star arcanum, which is presumably what makes First Elves immortal-ish so... maybe? It's not clear why Kpp'Ar would want immortality in general, especially that type of immortality, for himself, but clearly there will be a reason. It could be that he wanted to transfer it to someone else (Soren) and gave up, but that's not fundamentally different than what Kim'Dael does, so... again: why himself?

(Arc 3 come home to me)

Cannot Die

Last but not least, we have Aaravos + the other First Elves in the 'cannot die' category, except when they can (Leola). I've written more before about how... odd the info surrounding what the Cosmic Council can and cannot do and what we may be missing, for lack of a better term. Quick rundown:

The Cosmic Council can execute Startouch elves. Aaravos did not have enough power to stop them. (*At the time of Leola's death, as things may have changed since then)

Aaravos seems to be utterly unconcerned that the Cosmic Council conceivably could, if they became aware of his actions, execute him in the same manner. Aaravos does not seem to care if they notice, given that he asks, "Are you watching?" in 7x08.

When Aaravos' mortal form (like the one Leola had/used on earth) is destroyed in 7x09, there are noticeable visual differences to the destruction of his daughter's.

Aaravos seems to want to bring the First Elves into "this world" as it is an instrument of pain that begets only suffering, and "I want them to suffer."

We also know that Aaravos believes the First Elves don't care about / love their creations at all, so destroying the earth can't be the endgame goal. We also know that something is keeping Aaravos from accessing/attacking them, otherwise he would've done so before being imprisoned.

Presumably, something in the interim has changed with either 1) Aaravos is no longer able to die or 2) He has found a way to be able to kill the other First Elves if they went after him, rather than the other way around. Potentially dark magic is the road to get there, or a form of ancient magic the First Elves tried to keep hidden that became the basis for dark magic.

Either way, we know that the First Elves are able to end an otherwise truly immortal being's existence permanently (at least so far) and that it's a power at one point Aaravos did/does not have. I'll be curious to see what we learn about all of this and self-eating in the future.

[elvesdragonsanddarkmagic]

[kradogsrats]

[krmayerillustration]

As Above, so Below. As Within so Without. What boundary exists, except by my own will?

[xadianglyphs]

Star Iconography: Enhanced/Primordial Stars

This post is part of a series collecting, categorizing, and exploring types of star iconography used through s6. Reading the other parts is not required to understand any individual post, but they are related.

—

So this takes a bit of explanation: a lot of people refer to the messy, many-pointed star-like symbol that we see on the book containing the Infantis Sanguine spell as "the deep magic symbol" but I personally prefer to refer to it as the "primordial star" since a) I'm pretentious as hell, and b) the term "deep magic" hasn't been introduced in the setting and we know so little about it, I think it's a bit presumptuous to declare "all of deep magic collectively has a symbol, and this is it."

The primordial star has eleven "points," which is a very weird number, but if all the similar symbols are related the number of points/rays is inconsistent, anyway. We see very similar adornments on Aaravos's cloak, but the arrangement of points isn't quite the same.

Back to that in a moment, but keep some of the distinguishing features of the primordial star in mind as we go over some of the other star symbols with more than four points: namely a) many points (duh), b) the points/rays are thin and linear, and c) the center is a circle.

Most of the star symbols with more than four points are eight-pointed, and the most prominent one we see in s6 (or at all) is probably the star symbol that appears on the blindfolds of Celestial elves who have been exposed to pure starlight. The symbol itself is a four-point star with a central circle, with four additional small diamond shapes added to create another four points. Within the eye shape of the blindfolds, the star forms the iris/pupil.

This is interesting because the star is a symbol of a new stage of enlightenment—to be exposed to the pure starlight at the top of the Starscraper on a moonless night is clearly a rite of passage for the Celestial elves, where their spiritual eye, represented on the blindfold that protects their real eyes from being tainted by the sun or moon, is opened.

So why isn't it the Star primal symbol? The Starscraper is encrusted with Star primal symbols, so it's definitely a big deal for the Celestial elves... but the Celestial elves don't actually talk about the Star primal much (or the Star arcanum at all, even though you could see both the moonless night ritual and the trial Callum undergoes as working to develop an understanding of the Star arcanum)... instead they refer to the stars more directly, not as a primal source but a separate, higher power.

Additionally, while there's a definite relationship between the Celestial elves' insignia and their blindfolds—the insignia is an eye within a star, the blindfold is a star within an eye—the star shapes are pretty distinct from each other. Like, why does the insignia only have four points (or why does the blindfold star have the extra four)?

Well, let's take a look at the other prominent eight-point star symbol appearing in s6: the central symbol of Amor Stella Vitae.

Bears more than a passing resemblance, doesn't it? A distinct four-point star, four extra shapes for additional points, and a center circle diamond.

Amor Stella Vitae is a whole thing in its own right, as the only "Star" spell we've thus far seen... and I put those quotes because I'm not convinced this is a Star primal spell in the way that like, Aspiro is a Sky primal spell. For one, it explicitly uses components beyond the source for Star primal magic (the quasar diamond). We've never seen that with primal magic before—instead it's a pretty explicit reference to dark magic, though the other components don't appear to be inherently magical the way dark magic reagents usually are. Furthermore, while Amor Stella Vitae does begin with drawing a rune in a manner similar to other primal rune spells—and note that while the rune could be called a four-point star, it's in an orientation none of the four-point stars we've ever seen have been—the way the rune expands on its own isn't something we've seen a primal rune do. Not to mention that if you check out my magic circle tag... well, pretty much everything aesthetically similar that we've seen so far has been associated with dark magic or Kim'dael's blood magic.

Here's the thesis I'm getting at: we're vaguely aware that there's a kind of magic distinct from primal magic—so-called "deep magic"—and it has some heavily implied connections to dark magic and blood magic. Additionally, Startouch elves are the "First Elves," predating the other primal elves—suggesting that the magical power of the stars may precede the primal sources, at least as known by elves and humans. There may be Star primal magic similar to the other primal rune magic we've seen so far, or it's possible that there isn't really any magic of that kind and it all has the deep magic-adjacent nature of Amor Stella Vitae.

Star symbols that edge toward resemblance to the primordial star—center circle, many points, and/or graphically linear—is a hint at that connection or presence of the stars as a power outside the primal sources. The Celestial elves are attempting to commune with that deeper power, though they respect the Star primal, possibly because it has a place in the Cosmic Order.

Other examples hint at age—a lot of the information we're exposed to about Startouch elves and the Star primal is lost to the other characters. In the scenes with Aaravos and Leola, the human girl has a line-and-dot design on her dress that resembles a four-point star as interpreted though the graphical lens of the primordial star... a connection I'd hesitate to make except that we see a similar symbol (though with eight points) in the Starscraper:

Similarly, the Celestial elves' Elder—the only Celestial elf still living from the time of the last moonless night—has a symbol on his visor that is distinct from the one the younger adherents receive on their blindfolds. His symbol is more directly reminiscent of the primordial star in its strong center circle and linear points.

One place we notably don't see these many-pointed or primordial-influenced star symbols is in the context of Startouch elves other than Aaravos. The closest opportunity would be the platform for the accused in the Cosmic Justice scene. Both that and the Starscraper elevator platforms are circles containing central four-point stars, but while the Starscraper elevator includes an eight-point star that works nicely with the circular frame... the Cosmic Justice platform manages to have a design that seems to go out of its way to avoid evoking a star with any more than four points.

Finally, to circle back to the primordial star and deep/star/blood magic, let's take a look at something I didn't call out when collecting examples in the first post of this series:

When the primordial star symbol was introduced at the end of s5, it wasn't hard to identify a relationship between it and the symbol on the back of the cursed coins, which were also prominent that season... but it was hard to explain what that connection might be.

Now we have a bunch more pieces of the puzzle. Starting with the cursed coins: the Staff of Ziard can empower dark magic spells, but the spells unique to it, and its core purpose, are related to the capture and transfer of essence/souls. In s6 we learn that a) the souls trapped in the cursed coins are in fact split, with one portion in the coin itself and the rest stuck in the in-between and unable to pass on, and b) the Staff of Ziard contains a quasar diamond, though it's a little ambiguous as to whether that's the source of its power.

At the start of s6, we see that Claudia has performed the spell to "use every drop of [Sir Sparkelpuff's] living essence to restore [Viren's] life," i.e., captured the essence from Sir Sparklepuff to transfer to Viren, and it's the same damn symbol. Then, at the end of s6, we have some kind of star-related magic (using the quasar diamonds) used to restore a "lost" soul to the living world—another example of magically moving essence around.

So again we have a connection between star magic and dark magic, in the Staff of Ziard (which enables dark magic spells that trap or release essence/souls) containing a quasar diamond, which is then used in a star magic spell to do essentially the same thing. Furthermore, if there's a similar connection between deep magic, pre-primal star magic, and the essence/soul itself as the inherent shared source behind all magical power—Startouch elves were the first elves, "We are, all of us, stardust," etc.—the primordial star symbol could also relate to essence/souls... meaning it makes perfect sense for a split or broken version of it to be associated with spells that sever or split souls.

Now, if I'm right, I suspect some of this is going to be very prominent in s7, with the whole "invert life and death" thing and us having been introduced to the in-between and other stuff. So yeah, we'll see.

[theredhairedmonkey]

The fact that in arc 1 Callum learned the Sky by realizing there are infinite heights he can go…

And the fact that in arc 2 Callum learned Ocean by accepting there are also infinite depths…

Right before the season about Stars, built around the cosmos, a phenomenon centered on infinite heights and depths…

All I know is, we’re gonna get fed next season 😊

[amber-in-the-rough]

and yeah, now we know what the s6 poem meant by "eight in a line". It still could mean those stars from the opening but it's much more likely those multicoloured staffs.

maybeee like i said before, they represent 6 primal sources + dark magic + deep magic.

or, i would still take it if it turns out to be 8 types of deep magic staffs. after all, we DO know there are more than one. there's Power, there could be Love and some more. after all, Callum's spellbook mentions it also more than once - that Love Is Magic :3

.

u can definitely say that im very happy rn

[knuffi516]

When star or deep magic is able to corrupt the other primals, silmar like dark materia, what is able to revesing the process? Such as purifing the sun stone on the Relic Staff?

[kilfeur]

Mon avis sur la magie profonde c'est qu'il est l'origine de la magie primale et de la magie noire. Dans la scène où Viren la retrouve, il croit qu'Aaravos a menti. Mais Claudia a utilisé le sort d'Infantis Sanguine sacrifiant Monsieur Bavetout mais aussi le sceptre de Viren. Ce sont des ingrédients pour le sort d'Infantis Sanguine. En revanche la scène de l'exécution de Leola me fait demander si c'est vraiment un sort des étoiles ou bien un sort de magie profonde.

Car cette lumière, ça vient à l'intérieur d'elle, est ce qu'ils ont utilisé sa connexion l'arcanum des étoiles pour la tuer ? Ou bien en utilisant un sort de magie profonde pour commettre son exécution ? Donc les elfes des étoiles auraient utilisé la magie profonde pour créer la magie primale mais qu'après Aaravos aurait utilisé la magie profonde pour créer la magie noire.

My opinion of deep magic is that it is the origin of primal and dark magic. In the scene where Viren finds her, he believes Aaravos lied. But Claudia has used the Infantis Sanguine spell, sacrificing both Sir Sparklepuff and Viren's scepter. These are ingredients for the Infantis Sanguine spell. On the other hand, the scene of Leola's execution makes me wonder whether it's really a star spell or a deep magic spell.

Because this light, it comes from inside her, did they use her connection the arcanum of the stars to kill her? Or did they use a deep magic spell to commit her execution? So the startouch elves would have used deep magic to create primal magic, but then Aaravos would have used deep magic to create dark magic.

[grumblglum]

20 1 19 2 18 3 ...

"Pendulum" Decided to take a bit more of a web-comic spin on this piece, but I think it suits my OC Casimir well! :D He's a human artificer from Barovia, specializing in clockwork structures and chronurgy magic, thanks to my GM's very kind allowance of some spells form Kobold Press's Deep Magic in our Curse of Strahd campaign. In my homebrew setting New Talone, Casi works as the quiet and solitary maintenance man at the Talone School of Arcane Arts.

Like my art? Want to see more? Support me on Ko-fi through the link in the image above ^

[self-spaghettification]

last post for today but

bringing this back!!

because either 1. this speech was supposed to be to Viren as Aaravos said he was using “one of the old spells” and it got cut.

OR 2. it got moved to s6 and i am rooting for the latter!! because!!

It means Aaravos will be giving a speech on proto-magic to some mage in a flashback or, (what I believe is more likely) to Callum Callum’s gonna learn magic from the ancient all powerful mage !! but either way we’re getting mentor-pupil dynamic with him and I’m ecstatic.

[raayllum]

so on the subject of self-eating... Kpp'Ar was looking into and attempting it, but it doesn't seem like it was working (or if it did, not quite right). But it makes me wonder about Kim'Dael and if self eating is more successful (?) a practice for elves on the basis of their arcanum being 'replenishing' in the way an ordinary human presumably wouldn't?

[reactionimagecollection]

[kradogsrats]

Stars & Staffs: What the Heck, Guys

So. The staffs. The staffs.

Prior to this, we held the belief that the Staff of Ziard was made specifically for dark magic. I made a meme about it once (why yes, I do think I'm funny):

Now... that could still be the case. The Aaravos/Sauron parallels have always been off the charts, so "the dark lord forged in secret a master ring, and into this ring he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life" is still a definite possibility.

Aaravos also has a strong thread in his plans to bring about the stars' downfall through a vector they had overlooked—humans—and with warped mirrors of their creations—himself, characterized as "their dark brother," and possibly dark magic, itself.

—Ripples

—Patience

So yeah, still strong possibility that the Staff of Ziard is Aaravos's creation for humans, a mockery of their works delivered with irony.

However, the other possibility—that the Staff of Ziard is one of a set conceived for some magical purpose—is super interesting, because it's actually not strictly a dark magic staff in the way that Ibis's staff is a Sky magic staff or the Sunforge staff is a Sun magic staff.

Staffs for primal magic are pretty explicitly sources of power and focus for the mage. The Sunforge staff contains a small Sun primal stone, Ibis's staff appears to similarly contain a Sky primal stone—it's not clear whether these primal stones are powerful enough to be used on their own by a non-mage, but the corrupted Sunforge staff is at least powerful enough for Claudia to use it easily and immediately.

We also have Karim's staff, which doesn't have a visible stone and appears to be somewhat less powerful, acting more as a channel to focus his magic than a source for it. While we see a lot of rune spells cast using staffs, we also see several spells cast with staffs apparently instead of runes.

Most staffs are probably a lot more similar to that, because like... the Sunforge staff is obviously incredibly powerful, being linked directly to the Sun nexus and wielded by former Sunfire monarchs. Ibis's staff also tracks as a powerful artifact—I would not be surprised if Ibis was an archmage of Sky, or equivalent to one in power. Ibis even uses his staff for some rather complex magic—picking up objects, aiming, and launching them at Claudia—without a rune or a spoken draconic incantation.

The Staff of Ziard, on the other hand... it's not actually a dark magic staff in the same way. Instead of itself being a source of magic or using the mage's own connection to a primal source the way primal staffs do, the Staff of Ziard is all about siphoning away the essence of living creatures, whether that's primal magic or souls. Being able to then empower or release that essence seems to potentially be a matter of knowledge—Viren doesn't do it until Aaravos has basically taken over his subconscious, and the only other person we see do it is Ziard himself, draining the sunbirds directly into a corrupted fire capable of burning an Archdragon of the Sun.

Conceptually, siphoning essence to cast spells is very in tune with dark magic... but not exclusive to it. "Magic that takes," as Aditi describes it, apparently exists in several forms.

Additionally, like I said, Viren literally never uses the staff for any magic that isn't unique to it until mid-late s3.

All the dark magic spells he does before then, except for the ones that are explicitly done with the staff alone, he does without it.

(Yes, there's whatever he does to hold Thunder immobile, but that has always been a weird outlier we don't fully understand. We don't know whether it's a spell from the staff—unlikely, given that it doesn't involve or affect the central stone—or a reagent-powered dark magic spell he cast while the camera was focused on Thunder and Harrow.)

So what is the deal with these?

We know that the Celestial elves are guardians of artifacts related to Star magic, Startouch elves, and presumably the Stars/First Elves in general. So the staffs could just be being stored. They do have nice little display niches. What's kind of weird is that first of all, they're apparently powered up in some way, given the glow of their stones. Secondly, they're in full "open" configuration—the way Claudia uses the Staff of Ziard when opening the chrysalis.

Like the soul-trapping spell that is one of the staff's specialties, the chrysalis spell uses a dark magic incantation (rather than the Draconic-based deep magic or corrupted Sun magic spells). It's described as channeling the power of the "sun's first light," and what it does is, I'm fairly convinced, imbue the being inside the chrysalis with essence—on some level giving it consciousness or a soul.

So what if all the staffs work that way, but for different facets of energy or magic or whatever? Why create something like that, whether for the sorts of energy corresponding with primal sources, or for souls and consciousness? Why would Startouch elves need staffs, if they're so absurdly powerful?

Theory one: let's get the least likely one out of the way first. As a whole, the staffs are components of a machine-like spell or group ritual that maintains the flow of primal and other magic through the world. Yes, this is about my theory that the Starscraper is a kind of world-pillar or bridge that funnels magic to Xadia from elsewhere, and yes, I am a big fan of Pillars of Eternity. There's not really a lot of evidence for this, aside from the different stone colors and the arrangement and kind of strange location of the stored staffs. Like, what is up with this?

Theory two: we know the First Elves in some way divided into at least the five other kinds of primal elves. Could the staffs have been somehow related to that, intentionally consolidating and focusing the First Elves' magical nature into separate forms? Again, there's not really any evidence for this beyond that staffs are meant to be carried and used by people, and the theory that the First Elves may have consciously taken on becoming the different primal elves.

Theory three: this is the forbidden magic that was given to humans, not primal stones. We have two sources for the "Leola gifted primal magic/stones to humans" story, and each of them contributes different things—the one that specifies primal stones doesn't mention Leola by name, attributing the gift to unicorns as a whole, while the one that specifies Leola doesn't mention the primal stones, instead specifying that she provided them with the runes and Draconic words for spells. If the staffs are like the Staff of Ziard but for other energies, including primal sources—if they're all "magic that takes," it would make a lot more sense why the stars got so fussed about humans having it. There isn't really any more evidence for this than for my other theories, but shut up I like this one. It would be the chef's kiss Uno-Reverse cap on the entire mangled and obscured story of the history of human magic.

Anyway, my insane TED Talk aside, what in all heck is going on, because every time I think I've gotten this shit kind of figured out, they do this kind of curve ball.

[aesthetic--mood]

Jadis The White Witch Aesthetic

[beautifulterriblequeen]

What did the newly revealed season 5 reveal about deep magic? Is deep magic blood magic?

Hi hi, yeah, it seems to be something like that.

It's not lost on me that the symbol illustration in Aaravos's text is blood red.

Neat! So normal.