#dc has this weird approach where they want to explore the fact that bruce having this kind of money

[spite-and-waffles]

I'm sure it is closed off, but it's an old house that needs maintenance. I think it's the popular headcanon that Thomas and Martha had a full live-in staff, but Alfred let them go one by one after a couple were caught leaking info about Poor Little Bruce to the tabloids. But even if you kept the actual living area relatively small and manageable, a very old house of that size, packed to the gills with heirlooms and art, will need regular inspection and maintenance so nothing grows mold or gets infested or stolen or what not. Which is why a discreet temp staff would be necessary.

And uh, you can't actually be that rich without hoarding money. Bruce definitely gives a lot of it away and WE is clearly mad profitable but it's all sitting on like 150 years of generational wealth. Which we're also carefully Not Thinking About lmao. There was a story called Batman: Tenses where a young Bruce Wayne ruthlessly guts his companies to maximize profits to fund his crusade, and belatedly realizes the human cost of doing that.

I always wonder whether Batfam fans really get just how fucking rich the Waynes are. Like of course we shy away from thinking about the fact that we're talking Musk and Bezos money, and focus on how Bruce funds the freaking Watchtower and has what is functionally a high-tech military base and lab and the world's most expensive vehicles. But this is the one time you don't have to factor in the implications of wealth-hoarding, so there's nothing preventing y'all from understanding exactly how much money we're talking about here.

For instance, there doesn't seem to be any concept of how palatial Wayne Manor is, simply going by the outer facades of it that appear in the comics and movies. Or how decadent the lifestyles that accompany that kind of ancestral home. Alfred couldn't run that place on his own even if he had super powers, which is why even the movies occasionally show a rotating probably-temporary staff in the background. The house probably has like 3 hundred-foot pools. Their garden is a protected heritage park.

The Waynes are 10x richer than Crazy Rich Asians. They buy and wear the jewelry worth hundreds of millions that belonged to royalty. They own private islands. The art in the house alone is worth more than the GDP of a small country. They went to school with like every US President since Teddy Roosevelt and still think the Rockefellers are new money. They're personal friends with Beyonce and can get her to perform at private parties. They can rent out an entire three-star Michelin restaurant and fly out to one for every date. They have top-line penthouse apartments in every major city in the world. They can buy a luxury sportscar instead of hiring a vehicle anywhere they visit and then just toss the keys to the nearest person on their way out (Arab royalty is known for this appearently. There's been some very lucky parking valets in the UAE iirc).

Bruce is as rich as Ra's Al Ghul, regularly make social calls to heads of state and his family has a history of being king-makers. Every one of Bruce's children, from Dick to Jason to Cass, is poised to inherit one of the largest and most powerful fortunes in the world. That means every time Bruce adopts an orphan off god-knows-where, the entire global elite is thrown into consternation and horror. Even Tim is barely acceptable to these people because he doesn't have the pedigree. I don't follow the reboot comics so Idk if Duke is adopted, but it would be so fucking funny if he was because they'd react a lot like the British establishment did to Meghan Markle (except the family and WE would have Duke's back completely). As for Damian, the fact that he's not white would get him snubbed if everyone who's anyone didn't 100% know who Ra's Al Ghul is. And they're fucking terrified because, for maximum hilarity, they probably figure that Bruce doesn't.

I just find it incredibly fucking funny when I'm reading fics that the writers can only imagine Bruce and the kids's civilian privileges extend only to "big house", "a lot of cars" and "Gotham famous". Lol. Lmao even.

[bigskydreaming]

And another thing, he said as if its ever just ONE more thing, hahahaha look, fuck you numbers, I’m not about to be limited by the likes of YOU.

Anyway.

Anyone else think its kinda weird that in all the many years of “Dick not so secretly resented Jason because Bruce adopted him and made him Robin and that’s why they were never close” fics.......there seem to be a big whopping zero that take the fix-it approach: 

“What if Bruce had been aware of the tension between the two because he’s not actually a Dumb Dumb McStupidhead and thought to himself, gee, if only there was something I, the parent, had the power to do about this resentment from one brother based on something I, the parent, did for the other brother who never did anything because he is not the parent and also he did nothing wrong? What if given that I and my actions are the actual problem here, I, the parent, he who holdeth both the actual power in this family as the parent and the power as the problem-causer, to address the problem.....like what if I got off my ‘matches with Batman’ butt and.....did...something? About it?”

Like.....oh I don’t know, just spitballing here....maybe explaining to Jason just what it was Dick was resentful about when it came to Robin and that Jason wasn’t the one Dick was actually mad at, which more than likely would have prompted the extremely empathetic at this age Jason to take Dick’s side and be like wtf, you gotta fix this B. 

Or maybe like, going to Dick and expressing how sorry he is that he didn’t consider how Dick would feel about any of this and that he’s let it go unaddressed for so long since then, which more than likely would have NOT resulted in Dick continuing to hold a grudge against an innocent third party but rather be like thank you this is literally all I ever wanted, a fucking acknowledgment that you’d hurt me and that my being hurt mattered to you? 

Or if the problem is more Dick being resentful that Bruce adopted Jason and not him, maybe Bruce explaining this to Jason and that Jason wasn’t the one Dick was actually mad at, which again, more than likely would have prompted the extremely empathetic Jason to go umm, wtf are you talking to me about this for then, if you think he’s upset about that why the fuck aren’t you going to talk to him about it and tell him all this stuff about regretting not adopting him before now and sparing him this hurt instead? Like what are you waiting for old man, your fucking helicopter to come pick you up? NOW. Go NOW. You’re not getting any younger, geez Louise, why are old people so dumb.

Or maybe like.....Bruce going to Dick and expressing how sorry he is that he didn’t consider how Dick would feel about.....look, you see where I’m going with this, right? You get it? Its not actually all that tricky to grasp?

Or hell, maybe even just in a fic where Jason nurses his own resentment over the fact that he’s heard so much about Dick and looked forward to meeting him and yet months and months go by since Jason’s adoption and in all that time his alleged big brother apparently can’t even be bothered to come introduce himself, RIP Jason’s feelings, guess he can’t possibly matter all that much to the guy, way to welcome him to the family......

I mean, its not like THAT thought neeeeeeever comes up in fic, so its like, hmmm, counterpoint, but where are all the fics that take the angle of rather than let Jason think he doesn’t matter to his predecessor and let Dick take all the blame for this impression when there’s LITERALLY nothing Dick could do about it since he found out about Jason from the freaking newspaper months after the adoption and only after Jason debuted as Robin.....maybe Bruce, could again, just like....start a conversation. And be like Jason I seem to have inadvertently given you the wrong impression here, but trust me, Dick not coming to meet you before now had nothing whatsoever to do with you and was purely because I never actually told him about you.

Again, cut to Jason, the actual brains of the family at this point in time, staring at Bruce with his mouth hanging open:

“Wait, so you’re telling me that after the two of you had this big fight and you haven’t seen him in like eighteen months, AND after his eighteenth birthday came and went without you bothering to even call him and let him know you still wanted him in your life despite him no longer legally being your ward, AND after you went and took me in and adopted me......you never at any point picked up the phone and said hey kid that I raised and consider family and still want to be part of my family no matter how long its been since we talked......I just thought you should know, given that we’re still family and all, that our family is now bigger, because that’s information that is kinda key to give to people you consider family, as NOT keeping them in that loop could kinda sorta maaaaaaybe give them the impression that you DON’T think of them that way or else you would have thought this was relevant information for them to have?”

Bruce: I’m not sure I see where you’re going with this.

Jason: How are you this dumb. No but seriously. HOW. 

Anywho, cut to me, twiddling my thumbs here all super casual like.....

But HMMM, isn’t it WEIRD how fandom, which is totally better than canon, and definitely does not have patience for that unnecessary family angst porn DC is so obsessed with and just wants these goshdarn idiots to be a FAMILY, like......neeeeeeeeever utilizes the transformative power of fanfic and their much more reliable takes on Good Parent Bruce Wayne to like....have Bruce....do something about the problems between past Dick and Jason? In any of these fics? And instead has him just....let the opportunities to make things better for them, AND HIMSELF in the process, just like.....sail away into the rear view mirror, waving a hand at them as they pass, content to let things fester and worsen until cut to after Jason’s return, like.....oh gee, really wish something could have been done about the relationship between Dick and Jason way back when, maybe Jason could have benefited from another close relationship in his life then and maybe Dick might not be as bad off now if he wasn’t burdened with unnecessary guilt over having had human emotions when he was a teenager?

So so SO weird that this angle never comes up or gets tackled in ANY fics that emphasize Dick’s alleged history of being an asshole to Jason and the reason they were never close or barely knew each other. I mean, its such an EASY and OBVIOUS fix to all that, don’t you think?

Unless, of course.....in the fics that make an emphasis of this fandom created dynamic.....its not actually considered a problem to fix at all.

But rather, this manufactured dynamic IS the fix, to what they see as the ACTUAL problem......any kind of real or explored focus on what Bruce actually DID and didn’t do, that caused the resentment they’re all too happy to show Dick nursing, but seem keeeeeeeeenly deft in avoiding any exploration of him FEELING. Except of course when it comes to a reason for him to feel even guiltier BECAUSE of it.

Its almost like we would have had a ton more variety in how fics depict the early years between Dick and Jason, perks of this oh so easily arrived at fix-it angle.....unless those fics were always doing exactly what they intended by keeping every one in the comments sections so busy commenting on what a jerk Dick was in that chapter or in the older events that chapter mentioned, that they just so happen to never really spend much time considering Bruce’s inciting choices back then to be AS worthy of comment or criticism.

Idk you guys, I just happen to find it kinda hilar in that ‘what a weird coeenkeedink kinda way’ that so many of the things a lot of fandom are EXTREMELY loud about holding against Dick (whether Dick did or not actually do those things in the first place)....just so happen to be the very things that most of these same people REFUSE to ever hold Bruce accountable for, or admit that he actually did.

Y’know, like how Bruce never actually fired Dick as Robin, that was just a retcon (when there’s literally been more versions of events where Dick WAS fired than WASN’T at this point).....but meanwhile, Dick very much definitely did FIRE Tim, that was exactly how that went down.

Or how similarly, Bruce neeeeeever actually kicked Dick out, let alone made him give back his keys, but Dick DEFINITELY kicked Tim out of house and Gotham.....even though Dick literally did none of that and in fact was living at the penthouse the whole time he was Batman, meaning Wayne Manor was perfectly available to be Tim’s home base the whole time, if he’d wanted it. 

Or how Bruce has never lifted a finger at his eldest, or thrown any kind of a temper tantrum, because he is a good person who would obviously never ever do that, BUT if the son he spent the longest time raising just so HAPPENS to end up with a reputation of having a hair-trigger temper, going off at the drop of a hat, blowing things all out of proportion and lashing out physically whenever he’s overwhelmed emotionally.....well, that certainly has nothing to do with Bruce or anything he’s ever done, lol why would it, BUT its definitely something that needs to be commented on time and time again because it very much did happen all these times in canon, whereas all these times you’re talking about with Bruce are very clearly out of character writing because see, Bruce just isn’t like that, uh doy.

Or how Bruce definitely wasn’t being problematic as hell when it came to his non-interactions with Dick back when Jason was living with him, but Dick’s non-interactions with Jason are 10000x more worthy of comment and criticism. And Dick’s responsibilities towards the emotional wellbeing of the kid he didn’t pick to be his family and wasn’t even actually legally family with at the time, let alone actually obligated to, are definitely the same as Bruce’s responsibilities to the emotional wellbeing of both the kids he did actually pick to be his family and did actually make obligations to. Thus the one is definitely more deserving of a call-out post than the other....wait, what? Dammit, I was SURE my math checked out on that one this time. Well fuck a duck, now I am THOROUGHLY flummoxed by all this.

Yup.....

Just really funny in that lmao ‘actually not at all sorta’ way, how its the extremely PRECISE things that so many fans absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge Bruce ever doing, that they just can’t help but ‘expose’ as a mere retcon, bad writing, ooc behavior, writers just ‘not getting who Bruce Wayne is,’ etc, etc, whenever it does get brought up by other people....

It just so happens to be these very specific things that come up time and time again as the things people just WILL NOT LET GO when it comes to Dick doing them.....even when.....in most cases he didn’t even actually do them! Not because they were ‘mere retcons’ or just ‘bad writing’ or ‘ooc behavior’ or ‘writers just not getting who Dick Grayson is’....but because they literally. Did not. Happen. Until fandom for some reason - ‘despite’ HATING canon for having Bruce do THESE VERY SAME THINGS - put their own interpretative or transformative spin on things and MADE those things happen in such huge numbers that a lot of new fans coming into fandom by way of fics honestly believe that THESE are the canon moments and its the ones attributed to Bruce that are just fans of other characters having their sour grapes moments.

I mean....

You gotta laugh.

Anyway. So I mean, unless I’m just totally reading the room wrong, I’d have to hazard a guess that the only real reason we NEVER see fics addressing things the way I outlined in my earliest examples at the start of this post.....is that a whole lot of fandom just kinda decided over the years that it was just waaaaaay easier to just redirect peoples’ ire at other characters, away from Bruce, than it was to go to the trouble of like....actually ADDRESSING Bruce’s pesky little canon mistakes.

Cuz see....writing a happier, more united Batfam in the years before Jason’s death is only a fix-it fic if the problem you’re fixing is the family’s relationships.....and not ‘Bruce acknowledging - let alone taking ownership of - his mistakes.’ If the latter is the REAL problem, well a more ‘together’ family isn’t something you actually need at all....you just need someone else to pin its divisiness on.

But I digress.

Aaaaaanyway.....now standard stock disclaimer that as I’ve always always always said....I don’t actually hate Bruce nor do I have anything whatsoever against Good Dad Bruce.....my issues are always just with peoples’ approach to his canon mistakes or poor writing being to double down on the problem but just make it someone else’s. And that one little thing where the Smartest Man In The World can come up with a way to fight Doomsday with a paper clip and some chewing gum, but goshdarnnit if he’s not completely helpless and powerless when it comes to fixing his own mistakes or interceding in his childrens’ emotional problems. 

(As in by just y’know, parenting them. Sitting them down for a conversation. No, bugging their apartments and calling that his love language doesn’t count.)

Also, an Honorable Mention Pet Peeve goes out to all the fans who love to dismiss Dick Grayson stans raising this issue because ‘this sort of thing happens with all the characters’ when lololololol, no, it really actually does not. Given the weeeeeeeird similarities and parallels in the very specific things we tend to gripe about Bruce doing in canon and others tend to gripe about Dick doing in fanon, like, I’d actually think some of you would be a bit more empathetic about how much it sucks seeing your fave character condemned for stuff like this, given the lengths you go to when avoiding acknowledging Bruce doing it. But then again, that would defeat the point of attributing all that to a Bruce scapegoat instead of a Bruce in the first place, so I mean, I guess not actually.

But whatevs. I guess I’m just not able to grasp the nuances of how people criticizing or even fixating on some of Bruce’s worse actions in canon gains the ire of fans who are like, I am just here rolling my eyes at you guys for being so addicted to your shitty misery porn that you like, just loooooove going with the takes where Bruce is just the worst person ever and a totally shitty dad....

While meanwhile.....many of those exact same fans.....

Two seconds later: Now if you don’t mind, we have to get back to making up scenarios and bad faith interpretations that paint Dick as being just the worst person ever and a totally shitty brother or son. But in a not-that-we’re-addicted-to-shitty-misery-porn kinda way or whatever, because we’re obvs SO not, that’s YOU guys, this is totally different. We don’t LIKE doing this, we’re only doing it because we HAVE to. It has nothing to do with us not actually minding the writing or the content of what’s being written whatsoever, we just don’t like that it makes Bruce look bad, and as long as you keep fixating on how it makes Bruce look like, duh, what other choice do we have but to make someone else look worse instead? When you think about it, this is all your fault, really.

Anyway. You just gotta love the takeaway.

Us: Griping about something Bruce does in canon and how the writers portrayed it and any resulting followup.

Others in Fandom: manufactures a parallel scenario with Bad Brother/Son Dick Grayson out of a single out of context panel, tinfoil and some dental floss.

Fandom: These two situations are the same.

Us: Okay but see they’re really fucking not tho, is the thing....

[whetstonefires]

Do you think the DC fandom maybe, Infantilizes Tim a little too much? Like for a rich kid character who's main trauma for a long time was a getting left home alone too much there's an oddly amount of meta abt how much how much his parents hurt him~ compared to, y'know the two poor characters who grew up with physically abusive dad's+druggie mom's, or the two that were raised assassin cult's, etc

…well, yeah, I do kind of think that? His whole schtick for so long was being too old for his age in ways that didn’t sacrifice his jokey, relatable teenager energies. It’s weird how little of that we see anymore, sometimes.

And then DC broke him and discarded him and he’s sort of awkwardly hanging around getting reimagined as more woobie with every fan generation. It is weird!

But tbh I do get it. And I think the reason his parents’ failure of him and his vulnerability get played up so much, and Jason and Steph’s sufferings (while used a lot for things like motivation and context) not dwelt on quite so much in the same lugubrious style, are kind of the same reason.

Which is that canon didn’t commit to it. Jason and Steph’s experiences with bad parenting were foregrounded and retconned more dramatically awful several times. (There’s some definite classism in how that was approached imo, and I’m never budging on being mad about DC retconning out Catherine being sick and then ignoring her forever in all Jason characterization because a drug death invalidates a person ig, great message during the opioid crisis guys.)

They engaged and coped with it–Steph (and Cass, our #1 canon batfam parental abuse victim) pretty directly, Jason a little less so because of the dubious and fluctuating canon status of most of the content more specific than ‘poverty, homelessness, theft, parental drugs and crime in there somewhere,’ so most of his parent issues have been focused on Bruce. He sure has dug into them tho. 😂 Rarely well or productively, thanks DC, but it’s explicitly part of his character, is my point.

Whereas upper-middle-class Tim was always treated by the narrative as fortunate and unharmed by his experiences with his parents. Even though they were clearly behaving badly in several ways, and Tim showed signs of being harmed by it.

Tim outside of immediate moments of frustration always was of the opinion he was Fine, and Very Fortunate Actually.

Therefore a huge chunk of the numerous everyone who’s got parent-related mental and emotional harm, but has struggled to have that validated and hasn’t responded with a lot of anger toward the parent, identifies with Tim. The only one who’s never really lashed out at his parents for fucking up with him. The one who still needs it explored, because canon ultimately didn’t.

[editing post to put in a readmore because lol it’s long, post otherwise unchanged]

(Dick obviously didn’t ever have any Issues with the Graysons, but he Angry Teenagered at Bruce so hard it changed Bruce’s characterization permanently, rip.)

The things Jason, Steph, and Cass have been through are dramatic, obvious, and fit stereotypes because that’s what they’re based on.

That’s important content to have, but because it’s right out there in your face even people who identify with it quite a lot are less likely to feel the need to work all the way through it again in fanworks. That part’s there. It’s text.

(Well actually Jason having been physically abused kind of wasn’t? I think? It was mostly assumed on the basis of stereotyping and Jason’s not caring about the man much even as he felt possessive of information about his death, which is valid. I don’t actually know what’s up with Willis now, Lobdell did some weird shit that lacked emotional resonance or staying power because he’s Lobdell and has no soul.

Cass’ wandering years are also ludicrously underdeveloped. But very very few comics fans or writers can personally relate to being amazing child warriors with no grasp of language living feral under bridges. That part of her life is consistently represented in terms of absences, in terms of its deviation from the norm and the deficits of normality it left her with, which is typical but unfortunate.) 

-

The interesting things to do with these characters are often informed by the bad stuff in their childhoods, but there’s relatively rarely that much more to say about the fact that those things were bad. They know they’re bad. They’ve had a lot of on-panel rage about it, as discussed above. Steph and Cass both beat the shit out of their dads.

Jason is, in fandom especially, a sort of Platonic ideal of a kid who’s mad about his bad childhood and really bad at figuring out where to point that rage.

(Damian is a whole other kettle of fish, because he’s been lumbered by so many detailed retcons coming so fast no two people can seem to construct compatible models of what his early childhood was like, and even more because he’s still ‘a child’ enough that he’s necessarily in a different stage of processing than someone who’s officially only a few years older than him at this point, but still functionally 8 and also 20 years older, and whose parents are no longer in the picture to continue screwing up.

Also there’s no question that if he brings up an abusive thing the League did, he will be validated by his current environment about his realization that it was in fact bad. There’s a lot of fic on that theme! But it doesn’t have the same tone precisely because it is usually understood that that support will be there if he wants it. Realizing that his previous context contained things that were wrong keeps being made the focus of his arc.)

The badness of Tim’s childhood, on the other hand, was mainly in subtext. Even when we were clearly meant to understand Jack was fucking up, like when he canceled plans with Tim at the last minute to go on a date with Tim’s stepmother, or that infamous time he came to apologize for not being a great parent and got mad Tim was distracted by a crisis on TV so he flew into a rage and took the TV and smashed it and was like ‘that’ll teach you,’ it wasn’t leaned into.

The story didn’t treat Jack as a minor villain to be overcome but like a sort of environmental hazard of childhood, like homework, to be endured and coped with. Tim said things like ‘it’s fine’ and ‘at least he left the computer.’

(And like. It’s not about having a TV and computer in his room. It’s about not letting a child have boundaries, pointedly not respecting a child’s possessions, creating an emotionally insecure environment, punishing minor infractions in proportion to their momentary impact on your own ego, physically lashing out at a proxy for the child…)

Rather like Tom King later didn’t understand about the punching from Bruce, whoever did that story (probably Dixon? I don’t care enough to check) did not understand how serious a case of bad parenting that scene was. That is most definitely textbook abusive behavior. (It’s a hell of a lot more common abusive behavior than being a lame supervillain or shooting you when you screw up, and a lot more specific than ‘was a thug, might have hit me, dead now.’)

And Tim was never allowed to be mad at his parents about it. It was fine. He needed to be ignored so he had the freedom to be Robin. He deserved his dad being mad at him because he was keeping secrets. He complained too much, although objectively he did not.

The universe punished him for ‘complaining,’ more than once. We cut straight from him shunting aside his disappointment that his postcard from his parents was just to say they weren’t coming home yet after all with ‘if it will stop all the fights they’ve been having lately it’s more than fine’ to them getting kidnapped.

He agreed not to come on the rescue mission. His mom never made it home, and his dad was in a coma for a while. And then ultimately Jack died as a result of Tim’s decision to be Robin, immediately after finally deciding to accept it.

So Tim walks around feeling a huge burden of responsibility for his parents’ deaths, and completely unable to process any hurt they did him as real or valid, especially in comparison with the far more blatant awfulness other people have been through, and canon is clearly never going to address it. Or even acknowledge it properly.

Let me repeat that because it’s kind of my main point:

People are fixated on getting Tim’s emotional abuse validated because that’s an incredibly important step in recovering from emotional abuse, and it’s one canon consistently denied him.

How ‘bad’ things are ‘in comparison to’ problems other people have is a bad and unhealthy way to engage with trauma. Okay? That’s just a really harmful framework to apply to pain.

It’s also a way that both Tim and people with experiences similar to Tim’s are encouraged to engage with their own experiences, compounding the existing problems.

So. Not a form of relatable DC was ever actually aiming for when they tried so hard (and pretty effectively) to make him a relatable character as Robin, but an enduring one for a lot of fans.

-

So Tim’s childhood is a natural target for fanworks in a different way than the traumas that have been made explicit and taken seriously by the text. And then a lot of that got compounded by the way the introduction of Damian as Robin was handled, and the lack of resolution that got. And his current status as not quite having a place in the family anymore.

So between the level of projection encouraged by that context and how relatively difficult to access Tim’s Robin run has become ten years after the fact, this has led to a lot of fanworks on these themes that are based mostly on other fanworks, and stray further and further from the original content.

So at this point there’s an entire wing of Tim’s fandom wherein this side of him has expanded enormously, and he primarily exists to suffer, frequently in ways that 1) escalate to a point that is inarguably ‘valid’ and hard to dismiss and 2) set him up to rebound from it in whatever way the writer finds emotionally satisfying or useful–being ultimately cared for and reassured by people who value him (the most infantilizing option but like, popular for obvious reasons), or unveiling his brilliant scheme that was causing him to pretend to be passive in the face of mistreatment, or turning around and using his genius ninja skills to wrest power back from his abusers, or just laying down some sick burns about being treated fairly.

But not that many of the last one, because that’s mostly done with other batfam members.

Tim’s become a vehicle for a lot of vicarious coping that Steph and Jason just aren’t appropriate for, because they get angry and they get even. And those are stories that exist already, so there’s less scope for telling your own.

And because Jason’s reaction pattern is ultimately so masculine (i’ll make them all sorry! with my guns! blam blam!) while Tim’s is pretty gender-neutral, the demographics of fanfic mean that the bulk of the people using Tim vicariously in this manner are female-aligned, which has over time feminized this archetype of him a lot. Sometimes in ways I find really uncomfortable, like there’s a lot of forced pregnancy stuff which activates my panic buttons. x.x

But, ultimately, it’s fandom. People are going to do what they’re going to do, DC in their perpetual fail has hung Tim out to dry in narrative terms, and I’d rather the people who are using Tim for victimization narratives over the people who can’t dismiss or discredit him fast enough now that his position has been filled. 🤷‍♀️ What we gonna do? Fave’s in an awkward spot. DC hates us. This is the life in this comic book pit. XD

-

Also if you’re the same anon who left me a callout about op of that weird Steph post in my inbox, or if you aren’t @ that person, 1) I refuse to get involved so I’m not answering that ask 2) those aren’t even particularly dramatic fandom crimes? That’s pretty normal? That’s just…Caring Too Much About Ships And Disagreeing With Me.

Do I also feel those opinions are kinda bad? Yeah. But I disagree with everyone about something. Chill.

[threewaysdivided]

Hey, I know this is like a billion years from where you are in YJ:DW, but I had this thought strike me: what if Danny could see and talk to Jason Todd's ghost? (assuming Red Hood isn't YJ canon) There's so much potential for angst there, especially if Danny is the only one who can see him, and decides to try and get Jason to cross over. Or heck, what if Danny had a hand in Jason's revival?

That’s a neat idea that definitely has some good angst potential.  Have to admit though, I’m not entirely sure how it would work within the ghost-lore headcanons I’m using for YJ:DW specifically.  

I can write a longer post on this if anyone wants but Basically ghosts in the Deathly Weapons-verse break into 2 unrelated categories that get lumped together for looking sort-of-similar on the surface:  Ectoplasmic (the ones we see in DP) and what we’ll call Shades (DC ghosts like Secret, Deadman etc).  Ectoplasmic “ghosts” are their own inter-dimensional entities so they can’t really “revive” in the traditional sense, and “passing on” is pretty much limited to accepting what they are and chilling in the Ghost Zone forever or straight-up discorporealising/ re-dying.  Shade ghosts are the more traditional original-soul-bound-to-the-physical-world; either because external force is trapping them there, or because they were willful/ powerful/ knowledgeable enough to bind themselves.  These ones can potentially be “revived” more easily, and can “pass on” if they’re released from whatever is holding them to this world.

If Jason came back as a Ectoplasmic ghost he’d work the same way DP ghosts do; most likely everyone would be able to see him unless he had some kind of Young Blood-esque visibility condition (in which case anyone who fit the criteria would also see him), and outside of extreme edge-cases revival would be off the table.  (Throw a ‘plasmic ghost into a Lazarus Pit and they’ll just climb back out,  except now wet and mad at you for giving them a skin condition.)

More likely that Jason would come back as a Shade-ghost (especially since he seems intended to revive in some capacity in YJ canon), in which case he might only be visible to certain people.  In such a case though, I’m not sure it would be Danny who sees him. 

I feel like Danny would be the least emotionally and symbolically connected to Robin!Jason of the Wayne-household residents who’ve appeared in YJ:DW.  As mentioned in this post Danny kind of falls in this weird spot of being Dick’s Brother first and foremost where all the other Bat-Kids are Bruce’s Son/Daughter, and he has some personal qualms about Dick handing off the Robin mantle (and how close he feels he can/ “should” be to Jason) to work through because of that.  Outside of the both-technically-death thing, I’m not sure there’d be much reason for Jason’s shade to attach himself to Danny as an anchor compared to Bruce, Dick, Alfred or even possibly Tim or some location of personal significance (unless Danny seeing him is due to the ectoplasm, in which case other ecto-ghosts should see him too).

Although, in this very specific hypothetical, Danny is probably one of the better people Jason’s ghost could attach too.  We’re about a billion years from the end of YJ:DW right now but Grief and Healing is going to be a major theme of the core emotional arc, so by the time Jason comes along Danny’s going to be much better equipped to deal with even his canon death.  Add to that that Danny’s had to work with ecto-ghosts and therefore tangentially-death-related problems since he was 14 and he’d be less thrown by Jason’s “reappearance” and more likely to think “this could be a ghost problem” early on compared to Bruce and Dick whose first thoughts would likely be “this is an illusion caused by losing my mind from guilt/grief”, especially if Danny can’t also see him.  Plus, by that point Dick and Bruce do trust Danny pretty implicitly and let him take point where ghosts are concerned.

If Jason did appear as a Shade ghost, Danny’s process would probably look a little something like this:

Confirm that Jason is, in fact, a ghost and not a product of him going nuts

Work together to find a way to prove this to the others (while also working through any personal feelings and unresolved communication/ conflict issues)

Call in Bruce, Dick and Alfred and let them know

Family drama/ angst ensues

Collectively find Dr Fate/ John Constantine/ any other amenable magic-spiritualist hero who exists on Earth-16 to figure out how best to Deal With This.

As for Danny helping Jason (or other ghosts) to “pass on”, I kind of feel like that’s…. not really his ballpark.  I don’t see Danny as someone who’d compulsively seek out other ghosts and feel obliged to “move them along” unless they were actively in distress or causing damage/ distress/ fear/ pain to others.  Like, Johnny 13 wants to ride his motorcycle at full tilt through the streets of a town, terrifying the citizens?  Get in the thermos or get out.  Johnny 13 wants to ride his motorcycle at full tilt down a long, deserted county road?  Fine, just don’t go into towns or bother other drivers.  He’ll leave them alone so long as they leave other people alone.

In that regard I see Danny as sort of the fixer compared to Jazz’s counsellor - if a ghost is acting up because of some problem (or comes to him for help) then he’ll deal with it so that they can leave, or at least chill out.  And if he can’t fix it (because the solution is harmful, the ghost’s nature/powers are too inherently dangerous or they’re just there being dicks by choice) he’ll capture and send them back to the Ghost Zone (or find someone who can exorcise a Shade) to remove the problem that way.  He might gently float the suggestion, but if Jason wanted to pass on then that would be Jason’s choice to explore unless he specifically asked for help or became distressed/ disruptive enough to force Danny’s hand.

Similarly, I think revivals wouldn’t really be Danny’s ballpark either; it’s not a solution he’d like and he has neither the knowledge, interest, skills or equipment to actually facilitate any of the rare reliable edge-cases methods of resurrection.  Danny prefers to keep to the ‘best left alone’ side of ‘Meddling with dark forces best left alone’ as much as is possible.

Personally I kind of prefer the revival stories where Jason isn’t around until his actual return.  I think there’s more easy gut-punch mileage in most of those versions.  That structure forces the other characters to accept that he’s “not coming back” and try to process all the conflict and pain that it brings, only to then sledgehammer the new status-quo by having him reappear, now changed, at point where his death has significantly altered their dynamics with him, his memory and the other characters.  By comparison, having him come back as a ghost and then revive kind of smooths and flattens that trajectory to one where anyone who can interact with him (even indirectly) gets their emotional healing accelerated, and the status quo eventually slips back closer to how it was (with them mostly just having to adjust to physical limitations of the new form he takes), only to reform fully when he “comes back” for real.

But, anyway, that’s part of larger personal nitpick with the use of “ghosts” in stories.  I find that the meaningful thing about death (and that seems to get weirdly missed by a lot of works) isn’t the moment of impact itself so much as the persisting loss and how the survivors cope.  We are haunted by absence more than by presence.  Most cases of bringing the dead character (or at least their mind/personality) back in some capacity tends to soften the weight of that for me, unless the ghost is meant to function as a some kind of metaphor for the healing/ acceptance/ closure process and “move on” when the other characters do.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed this long and somewhat tangential ramble.  It probably won’t be happening in YJ:DW or YJ:DW-EU but in a story which took a more hardline all-ghosts-are-dead-people/ horror approach to world-building, I can definitely see the someone-seeing-Jason’s-ghost set-up having a lot of angst and uncanny potential.  (I know there are a couple of fics like that already out there but I can’t remember their titles right now, sorry!)

[davidmann95]

Where does Robin stands nowadays in the Batman's world in your opinion? How different is it from where it started in the DCU?

Over 78 years and at least 4 ‘main’ versions, yeah:there’ve been some changes.

The thing about Robin though, in terms of how he grewalongside Batman? For the first 30ish years of his existence, he’s not actuallya character; he’s an accessory, another item on the utility belt, albeit oneBatman cared about a lot more than a grapple gun or flashbang. Past that greatpage with him and Batman swearing the vow by candlelight, providing valuablesymbolism and context for (much) later on - and even there, Batman’s emotionsand motivations for bringing this kid into his world amount to “Well, Iguess you and I were both victims of a similar trouble.” - Dick’s just*there*, the junior crimefighter, thrown in to add variety to fight scenes andgive his partner someone to bounce dialogue off of. As little as the comicsbrought up Batman’s parents dying in a filthy alley back then, it at leastoccasionally merited a mention, whereas I could almost believe you if you toldme Robin’s origin was literally never brought up again for the first 20 yearsof his career.

To be clear, that’s not at all a failing of those stories. Robin’s great even then, a fitting splash of color into Batman’s world thatpaved the way for further weirdness down the line and a great design in his ownright (even if the lack of pants hasn’t aged as well as Superman or Batman’slooks at the time), as well as a reader-identification figure in a time whenhanging out with Batman still seemed like a fun prospect. But compared to itsbig rival in Superman, which silly as it got still often dove intobig, primal emotions children could relate to - at least in the Silver Age- Batman was mostly rooted in process: here’s how Batmanfights his way past the goons/escapes the deathtrap/figures out the mystery.The closest there was to an ongoing emotional conflict was Batman wonderingwhether or not he should settle down with Batwoman. As a result, despite reamsof pagetime and plenty of solo stories, Robin himself had less characterizationthan, say, the likes of Jimmy Olsen, or even Lori Lemaris. Even stories zeroingin on their relationship like Robin DiesAt Dawn are based on Batman’s guilt, not anything substantial on Robin’send. He’s not even a tonal contrast yet, since Batman himself is pretty chipperby now, and will be for the next few decades.

The turning point is in 1969 when Dick leaves for college aspart of a general attempt at streamlining Batman’s operation; while the O’Neil/Adamsteam hadn’t come onboard yet, the Adam West and Burt Ward show had ended theyear before and I imagine DC was already feeling the backlash, so it marked thestart in earnest of trying to get everybody to take Batman a bit moreseriously. The unintended result being that Robin, while appearing on occasionin the main titles, was for all intents and purposes hermetically sealed awayin his own corner of the DCU away from what was happening to Batman, first insolo adventures and then with the New Teen Titans. And eventually,inexorably, that meant that Robin shifted to not really fitting with Batman’sworld as we knew it anymore, and that’s therefore what came to define DickGrayson: he’s not like Bruce Wayne, and moreover he doesn’t especially want tobe, until him even nominally being Batman’s sidekick anymore doesn’t work oncehe grows up and realizes he doesn’t want to sit in a basement scowling for therest of his life.

Of course, taking Dick Grayson out of the picture meantthere wasn’t going to be a Robin period, and the rejection of the fun Robinrepresented wasn’t complete enough to deny the value of his iconography, soalong comes Jason Todd, The Robin Who Makes Sense For Grim Batman once he getshis Post-Crisis origin. He’s got a dark backstory (one that even doesmarginally more than Dicks’ did to justify the conceit of Batman taking on ayoung aid - after all, if Jason wasn’t Robin he’d possibly be doomed to a lifeof crime), and a personality that lets him trade jokes with the bad guys inclassic Robin style, but as fueled by a rage at injustice that meant he didn’tcontrast that harshly with a post-Miller Batman. There’s a bit more of adeliberate contrast with how Batman himself functions - something that becomesimportant later - but it’s subdued in the face of Jason’s anger boiling over,until his presence becomes untenable both in-universe and among the fanbase,and what happens, happens. Because goodness knows that if there’s one thingBatman was lacking, it was a defining tragedy to motivate him to fight crime.

So you have a company that recognizes that Robin probablyshould be a thing, but their attempt at making him mesh with therough-and-tumble modern world of the 1980s failed so spectacularly that havinga child beaten to death by a clown was preferable to having to continue to putup with him. So they were going to have to work with something a little morefamiliar, while at the same time finding a whole new way to make the ideapalatable, especially now that the obvious dangers of bringing a powerless kidto fight supervillains were right at the front of everybody’s minds.

And that’s how you get the most important Robin story of alltime past his debut in A Lonely Place OfDying.

Not the best,mind you; later stories explored the idea introduced here in far moreinteresting ways. And for that matter, I’mon the record that Tim Drake is by far the least interesting Robin, ageneric grab-bag of traits from other characters who never remotely approachesthe sum of his parts (and that disappointing streak in fact starts right here,where the question of “how do you justifyendangering a child after what happened to Jason Todd?” is kicked under therug by having a new kid show up out of nowhere who happens to be amazing andperfect for the gig both physically and mentally). But what happens here iswhere the idea hinted at now and again in the likes of The Dark Knight Returns finally clicks into place, where Robinactually becomes Robin as we now know him with the idea that his contrast withBatman isn’t a bug, but a feature.

That’s what Robin brings to the table, retroactivelyexplaining why Dick worked and Jason didn’t, why he makes sense in Batman’sworld, and why Bruce in fact needs him: because there needs to be a light inthe dark, someone to remind Batman just what it is he’s fighting for and keephim from losing himself entirely to his mission. That Robin saves Batman justas much as the other way around, and that having a laughing young daredevil outthere alongside him will keep Batman’s head in the game, keep him alert andengaged and alive now that he has someone else to look out for. In short, Robinbeing around forces Batman to be an adult, rather than the kid still crying inthe alley all these years later. And in so doing, he has the chance to showthese kids a better way, just as he once found one. It’s a take that sticksright away, since that’s the contrast they went with a couple years later for Batman: The Animated Series, setting instone how those two related to each other in the public eye to the point whereit’s hard to remember it any other way (especially since flashbacks to Dick’s period as Robin now retroactively cast him as the upbeat good cop toBatman’s hardass).

It doesn’t quite hold in the comics among the creatorsthough, and the result was an odd period where things were thrown in twodirections at once; some writers it was becoming obvious actually did dislikeor even hate Robin, or at minimum had no use whatsoever for him, and he startedto get kicked to the side at every available opportunity since now not only washe silly on his own but he actively represented the idea that Batman shouldhimself lighten up. Others clearly started to like Robin as a figure more thanBatman himself, hence getting storieswhere it turned out Nightwing was called into Gotham on the night of Jason’sdebut so Bruce could rub it in his face that he was replaced, or Brucereplacing Tim with an inadequately-trained young woman who eventually gotkilled to try and bait him into resuming the role himself. And by the timethings returned to some sort of equilibrium, it was already just about time forthe next big shift.

Finally, we come to the star of the show if we’re talkingabout how Robin works and where he stands today: Damian Wayne. The son of Batmanasopposed to the brother, and therefore probably why Bruce catastrophically fails at every turnwhen trying to raise him (outside maybe a few so-so Tomasi comics) - he’s acesat barking orders at partners, but not so much at emotionally connecting with achild who’s for a change actually immature compared to him, rather than beingnoticeably emotionally healthier. He couldn’t even properly help Jason; what hope didhe have at reaching a 10-year-old assassin raised from birth with the promisethat his destiny is to one day wreak bloody revolution and seize the world inhis grip? Bruce fights crime; what’s he going to do with a kid essentially raisedby the platonic concept of capital-C Crime? Hence why he’s not Bruce’s Robin, andnever really could be. Even if they could work together without findingthemselves at each other’s throats, it’d be two terse efficient warriors cooperatingsmoothly, with none of the spark that makes Batman and Robin thrive as apartnership in an emotional sense. He’s Dick’s.

He has to be Dick’s,because as Dick’s grown since his years in the speedo, through Nightwing toBatman and back again, he’s become the official adult in the room of the BatmanFamily (at least as far as the members in tights go). He’s the one who smiles,who has at least semi-stable relationships, who Bruce saved and who thereforegrew up not being afraid and vulnerable in the same way as him. And because ofthat he’s the one who’s able to talk with Damian as a human being to beunderstood and guided rather than an apprentice to be disciplined - just as hewas retroactively the one to make the effort to connect with Bruce, he’s ableto do the same thing here, except this time the power dynamic favors him - and becauseof that Damian eventually comes to understand there’s more to crimefightingthan punishing ‘degenerates’, but in protecting the innocent and serving ahigher ideal of justice. To the point where the privileged little brat whooriginally thought blood alone made him worthy of being Batman not only turnshis back on the crime that defined his life, but joins the Bat-Family inearnest by essentially orphaning himself with the rejection of hismother.

It’s the completion of a circle, where Dick proves hisworthiness as Batman by succeeding in saving Damian where Bruce failed to saveJason. They have the chemistry that defines Batman and Robin as a modernpartnership, able to bounce off each other with the wise snarking veteransuperhero always able to needle the self-important teen samurai billionaireuntil the kid comes out, whether to laugh along with him or show how deep hiswounds go. And the reason this truly works as a reconfiguration of the Batmanand Robin relationship rather than a new one altogether became clear in Nightwing Must Die!, where we see whatDamian brings to the table in turn: Dick as a well-adjusted person doesn’t havethe diamond-solid certainty in his identity or mission that Bruce did, butDamian most definitely does, and can bring the fire to Dick when he needs itthe way Dick could with Bruce. He’s the one who believes in Dick as Batman evenmore than he believes in Bruce. Hell, probably even more than Dick believes in Bruce.

As is that’s the issue with Robin, at least as far as thecomics go - he’s not working with his partner, and you can’t especially shove himtogether with Bruce without either killing the drama or going endlessly back tothe “You’re not my real dad, man!” well (yetanother reason Dick should absolutely still be Co-Batman), and while he’s honestlya strong enough character to work on his own, that’s not his situation at themoment. Thankfully we’re still getting a pretty effective contrast with JonKent in Super Sons, along with whatever they’re doing in Teen Titans right now,but as Robin specifically rather than Damian Wayne he’s kind of inevitablysidelined until Dick either takes back the cape or just takes Robin as hissidekick even while he’s Nightwing. Bruce himself seems to have moved pastneeding a Robin truly all his own at the moment, instead cycling through thelikes of Bluebird and Signal and Gotham Girl. The honest answer to what Robinmeans in the DCU right now is probably “identitythat’s going to remain in a holding pattern until the DCEU Batman and Nightwingmovies come out, and then they’ll do whatever lines up with those”. So, uh,come back to me in 2019 or thereabouts. But on the whole? Batman and Robin arethere to save each other. It’s that simple.