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aemiron-main · 1 year ago

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The First Shadow, Timelines, Alice Creel, and Swapping Family Members: New Thoughts On Alice Creel vs Karen Wheeler Regarding the Edward Timeline

(Karen Wheeler Might Be Alice, Just Not In The Way Anyone (Including Me) Thought She Was)

So, to start this off on an insane foot (bear with me).

I think that this is Alice Creel:

But before you go “oh, Em, you’re just rehashing an old Alice theory, everyone knows this theory”- I DON’T think that this is Alice Creel:

I a.) don’t think that they’re the same person and b.) I don’t think that the second girl is actually Alice Creel.

Most Alice is Karen theories claim that these two are the same person, and that Karen uses contact lenses or something to have brown eyes, something that I disagreed with.

And I thought that Karen was actually Daughter Virginia until today, and that that little blonde girl was Alice, and that they’re two separate people. I talked about it posts such as this post. Now, I'm not letting go of that theory entirely, I think there's still a chance that it might be true, especially since some of the TFS stuff is still being revealed/might be changed regarding contacts etc etc.

But now, I offer a new idea: that little blonde girl is not Alice Creel.

She’s also probably not Karen Wheeler either (at least, not the brown-eyed karen that we see in the show. I'm still undecided about the blue-eyed karen childress in all of this)

I think that little blonde girl is Virginia Creel/Daughter Virginia, and that Karen Wheeler IS Alice Creel, but is NOT that little blonde girl that we see. I don't think we've ever seen Henry's sister, Alice Creel, as a child on-screen.

Now, setting that aside, let’s start at the beginning of what I think is going on here, and we’ll circle back to that, and I'll explain why I think this is the case, and why I also believe that the brown-eyed "Virginia" Creel that we see is actually Mother Alice.

SECTION 1: Did Victor Get Peter'd? What The Hell Happened to Victor Creel?

So, I'm wondering if one of these is true: A.) The Victor in Pennhurst is actually the Edward Timeline Victor, who has been brought into the Henry timeline.

BUT, he's had his memories messed with by the lab and believes himself to be the Henry Timeline Victor (the father of Henry and Alice and the husband of Virginia) but is actually the father of Edward and Virginia and the husband of Alice)/. They likely left the visual part of his memories alone, but messed with the name part of his brain OR B.) The Victor in Pennhurst is the Henry Timeline Victor (the father of Henry and Alice and the husband of Virginia), and never crossed timelines, BUT he's had his memories messed with by the lab.

He doesn't believe himself to be the Edward Timeline Victor the way that the previous Edward Timeline Victor in option A.) believes himself to be the Henry Timeline Victor, BUT he DOES believe that the people he's seeing in his memories are his family when they're not.

This would be because they messed with the visual part of his memories, but left the names alone. And therefore, his actual daughter IS named "Alice," but the little girl in the visuals/his memories is NOT Alice Creel, and instead, is Edward Timeline Daughter Virginia Creel.

Either way, I think his memories got messed with, and either way, both options lead to that little blonde girl not being Alice Creel. Let's go through option A.) first.

This would be the option where Victor got "Peter'd"- aka, being pulled into another timeline like Peter Bishop was in Fringe (and Fringe is confirmed inspo for ST, the ST writers have tweeted about watching it). You can also see this post for more proof of that. In Fringe, it's the son (Peter), who is taken to another timeline. But, if ST wanted to subvert this/flip it, as they often do with their sources of inspiration, then it would make sense for the father (Victor) to be the one who is taken to another timeline. We'll talk about Fringe more later, though.

And you might be thinking "didn't Victor straight up say that Henry was his boy, Alice was his daughter, and then said "Virginia" in reference to his wife? Doesn't that imply that he's Henry Timeline Victor?

And YES, he did, but, like I said earlier, if the names were swapped around for him/if he believes that he's Henry Timeline Victor, then it tracks perfectly for him to believe that those are the names of his children and the name of his wife, even if they're not. His memories would still be the same visually, he would still be picturing His Kids in his mind, he would just have their names wrong/believe them to be someone they're not (much like Hopper talking about the "wrong kid," back in S1).

And I'm also wondering if The First Shadow is going to be the first time that we see Henry Creel and his family, rather than Edward Creel and his family.

Why am I wondering if TFS is going to be the first time that we actually see Henry Creel's family/see Henry Timeline Victor? Well, it's partially because, like I talked about here, Mike Jibson, who's going to be playing Victor in The First Shadow, resembles Owens WAY more than he resembles Kevin L Johnson/the guy who plays Young Victor.

So, I'm wondering if this guy/Pennhurst Victor:

IS this guy and IS Edward's father:

But is NOT this guy/is not actually Henry Creel's father:

But that This Guy is Henry's father, and possibly a young Owens/if we're seeing Henry's Creel's Father In The 50s for the first time & if Kevin L Johnson solely played Edward's father:

I know that previously, I said that Owens might be Edward Timeline Victor, but NOW, I'm wondering if he's Henry Timeline Victor, an idea I'll come back to soon in this section when I talk about WHY Victor might have been pulled from the Edward Timeline to the Henry Timeline.

And regarding the idea of us not having seen Henry's family before, there's also the matter of the wallpaper. I talked about the colour-changing wallpaper in the Creel house and how it connects to multiple timelines in this post, however, I want to talk about it again, because I want to talk about what we DON'T see in this regard, rather than what we DO see. And what we DON'T see is the red wallpaper in the family room in any of the 1950s flashbacks. This is relevant because as I talked about in that post, the red wallpaper seems to be from the Creel house in the Henry timeline, whereas the green wallpaper seems to be from the Creel house in the Edward timeline- and the green wallpaper is the only wallpaper that we see in that room in any of the 1950s flashbacks. This would mean that we're only seeing the Edward timeline when we're seeing 1950s flashbacks. However, it's also hard to tell/hard to say Definitively if we're only seeing the Edward timeline because in many of the flashback scenes, the door to that room is shut/simple not visible, so we COULD be seeing shots of the red wallpaper Creel house/of the Henry timeline, but we would have no idea because we can't see that room. BUT, if we ARE seeing solely the Edward timeline in those 50s, scenes, then it would track with the little blonde girl NOT being Daughter Alice/Alice Creel, because Daughter Alice doesn't exist in the Edward timeline- but Daughter Virginia does, and therefore, that little blonde girl is actually Virginia Creel. It would also mean that the mother "Virginia" Creel is actually Alice Creel/Mother Alice.

This would explain why Virginia Creel in TFS has blue eyes whereas Victor's "virginia" in his pennhurst sequence has brown eyes but is never referred to as Virginia by name in the 50s (it only happens when Victor says her name in pennhurst but that tracks with him having his brain messed with)- because she's not Virginia.

It would also explain why in the Dear Billy script, it has Virginia and Alice's names swapped in that moving-in scene: because that's exactly what it would have been for Edward Timeline Victor. He would have been standing beside his wife, Alice, which is what's birefly in the script (the line where they put thier arm around eachother):

And now here's the big question: WHY? WHY bring Edward Timeline Victor into Henry's timeline???

WELL! I mentioned the idea of Owens being Henry Timeline Victor. And I think that's exactly WHY the lab might pull Edward Timeline Victor into the Henry Timeline. I've talked repeatedly about how it's extremely likely that a.) the lab was involved with the Creel murders/present on the night of the murders but also b.) the lab was setting up the murders/planning things right from the day that the Creels stepped foot into Hawkins.

And we know that the Creel Murders in Edward's timeline happened a few days before the Creel Murders in Henry's timeline. So, if the lab was basically using Edward's timeline as a test run for pulling off the Creel murders in Henry's timeline, but if Henry Timeline Victor is Owens, then they need a fall guy to take the blame for the murders.

Because let's say that Jibson and Owens are the same guy, and that that Jibson-Owens is Henry's father from the Henry timeline.

But if Owens is the father, and if the lab needs to pull off the Creel murders in henry's timeline too (after all, they happened in edward's timeline FIRST/a few days BEFORE they happened in henry's timeline it's lowkey giving inter-timeline lab fuckery and a trial run), then who takes the blame???? After all, in Edward's timeline, Victor got arrested and then was dumped on the side of the road and taken in for questioning and sentenced, but we don't hear anything about what happens to Edward Timeline victor after his sentencing. He could have killed himself in prison, he could have escaped etc etc.

He could have dyed his hair pink with smuggled dye for all we know, point is, we don't have a damn clue at ALL what happened to edward timeline victor after his trial/after being sentenced to pennhurst. I'm not saying that he actually killed himself or escaped, but i AM saying that if the lab was to grab edward-timeline victor and bring him over to henry's timeline, we, as the audience, would have no idea based on the papers because the papers don't tell us what happened to him. We hear nothing whatsoever about Edward Timeline victor creeel after his sentence.

The weekly watcher is different because it gives us an INTERVIEW with pennhurst victor while he's in pennhurst, after his trial, indicating that in the Henry timeline, there is, in fact, a Victor in prison in pennhurst. But the Edward timeline doesn't have this, the indianapolis gazette article solely focuses on the day of Victor’s trial, we don't get anything about any interviews later on.

TLDRif jibson and owens are the same guy/are henry's father, and Kevin is Pennhurst Victor but from the Edward timeline, brought over into the Henry timeline. And would still track with what I said about how we dont see that red wallpaper room in the 50s/if that red wallpaper indicates henry timeline & we arent seeing it during the 50s, then that implies that we arent seeing the Henry timeline in the 50s.

But why would Owens want to kill his own family? Well, he didn't. Going back to Fringe, James talked about the fact that the lab in Fringe staged a murder to try and activate Olivia's powers as a child- and while this may have also been done in HNL with El in 1979/during NINA, I'm also wondering if that's what happened with Henward and if the lab was trying to activate their powers.

But if they're staging the murders, and if they want things to be believable, they want the public to think that the Creels are dead, then they need somebody to take the blame- and it can't be Owens/Henry Timeline Victor, because he's researching/part of the project. So, who do you grab? You grab his almost-clone, his alternate timeline self to take the blame. This would, weirdly enough, also make Owens the father of Karen Wheeler, as if Owens if Henry Timeline Victor. It would also mean that Alice Creel didn't die (but Daughter Virginia did/that blue eyed girl we saw bleeding on the ground) did die, and that Virginia Creel (the blue eyed TFS lady) didn't die either. Which, she may have gone on to become Connie Frazier, but that's another matter entirely. However, I'm not fully convinced that Owens is any form of alternate timeline Victor, so just keep in mind that I'm not saying any of this as if it's going to be firm fact. A solid chunk of this is just me swishing thoughts around and speculating. And with that bit of doubt regarding option A in mind:

Let's now go through option B.) Options B does not involve Owens being an alternate timeline Victor, nor does it involve Victor crossing timelines at all.

As mentioned earlier, Option B involves Victor remembering the names of his family, but the visuals being messed with/the names being associated with the wrong people.

How would those visuals be transferred? Well, from the other Victor's memories. And going back to Fringe briefly, it may seem like a stretch for Victor to have somebody else's memories, but keeping in mind that Fringe is confirmed inspiration for ST, in Fringe, one person's memories are transferred into another person's mind REPEATEDLY, often against their will, and often without them even realizing it. Olivia, for example, has memories that belong to Fauxlivia (her alternate timeline counterpart's nickname) implanted into her brain by a Brenner-Owens paralleled scientist to try and convince her that she's actually Fauxlivia (and it WORKS for awhile/absolutely had the potential to work permanently). It's abslutely within the realm of possibility for the lab to have done this to Victor.

And continuing on with Fringe, Victor is EXTREMELY paralleled to Walter Bishop (like, the shot of Victor turning around in Pennhurst is taken basically frame for frame of Walter turning around in St Claire's mental institution), and Walter Bishop had part of his brain removed, and lost a bunch of memories, especially memories of of his now-dead son's childhood as a result.

And it's also worth noting that Walter is Peter's father- however, Walter's original Peter died, and Walter pulled the Peter from another timeline into his timeline instead. But the memories that Walter lost of his son's childhood were of his original Peter's childhood- he didn't lose ALL of those memories, but he lost quite a few. Which has me staring at Henry vs Edward and Pennhurst Victor losing his memories of Henry & having memories of Edward instead, not even realizing that they're memories of Edward.

Long story short, either way, whether it's Option A or Option B, or something else entirely, it's EXTREMELY EXTREMELY likely that Victor had his memories messed with, because like I talked about in this post, the Indianapolis Gazette talks about Victor not remembering anything from the night of the murders, and being picked up on the side of the road.

And, like I talked about in this post, Victor and El's arrests are paralleled- and who was El later taken by as a result of being arrested? THE LAB!!!

And also, like I talked about in this post, Victor's flashback scenes have multiple direct NINA paralells- which would make sense if the lab was messing with Victor's memories the same way they messed with El's memories via NINA.

So, there's substantial evidence to support the idea that Victor's memories aren't reliable, and likely have been intentionally scrambled/messed with.

SECTION 2: Back To Alice

So, circling back to Alice, let's go through why I think that this little blonde girl:

Is NOT Alice Creel. And later on, I'm also going to tie this to why Alice Creel is missing from The First Shadow. You might be thinking “oh, Em, you’re so neck deep in insane theories that you forgot to actually look at the show! They call that little blonde girl “Alice” TWICE! You fool! You buffoon! I banish thee to The Beyond for One Trillion Years for your ignorance and tomfoolery!” However, as indicated by my lovingly labelled screenshots of those exact scenes, I did NOT forget, and thankfully, do not need to be banished to The Beyond:

And interestingly enough, even though in those two versions of the Creels' moving-in-day scene have Alice being referred to by name, there is one version that doesn't- the Creel Family Trailer:

And what's especially interesting abou those two versions of that scene where "Alice" is referred to by name is that they're both intentionally set up as being unreliable. They CHOSE to a.) have Victor seemignly be missing chunks of his memory (for example, he completely leaves out things like the exorcism at the Creel house and a ton of other details that are present in the papers)/be unreliable due to very, very likely having had his brain/messed with by the lab and they also chose to b.) have Nancy be in Vecna's memories, which, again, unreliable due to the HUGE chance of the lab fucking with them. Hell, in his monologue, 001 doesn't even give us the name of his mother or his sister- he seems to forget his sister even existed until the end of his monologue, and even THEN, he still doesn't give us her name! And he also directly contradicts himself when talking about how it was "planned" vs having JUST talked about how it was spur of the moment earlier, like I talked about in this post. He's not reliable, and neither is Victor. They could've just given us a scene of that girl being called "Alice" that wasn't through the memories of somebody unreliable who's very very likely had their brain messed with in a million different ways by the lab. But they didn't. The Creel Family Trailer is the only version that isn't set up as being somebody's memories- and especially not the memories of someone who's been messed with by the lab, and it's also the only version where "Alice's" name isn't used/the only version where that little blonde, blue-eyed girl isn't referred to as Alice. Is it not a little suspicious that the most reliable version of these events (the Creel family trailer) is also the version where, conveniently, that girl isn't referred to as Alice?

And I wondered, initially, if this was to conceal Alice's identity/name in the trailer. However, when I dug into it, that doesn't make any sense for these key reasons. 1.) Alice's name had already been revealed in the Netflix Tudum Creel Newspaper trailer. Alice's name was not a secret when the Creel Family Trailer came out. Why conceal her name AFTER having shown it right on-screen? 2.) The name isnt the only change in these scenes. I've talked about this before, but the trailer has quite a few differences from the scenes in the show, especially with the scene of Alice finding the dead rabbit being COMPLETELY different. But focusing on that "coming in the door," scene SPECIFICALLY, there's multiple differences. The light fixture is missing in the trailer:

But it's there in both the Dear Billly Creel sequence and the Massacre at HNL sequence:

"Henry" zooms into the house and runs up the stairs immediately instead of standing there all sad:

"Henry" runs in FIRST, before "Alice", whereas in the show, "Alice" gets into the house before "Henry":

"Virginia's" line is rewritten- if they simply wanted to conceal Alice's identity, it would have been VERY easy to take the in-show scene, put it in the trailer, and edit Virginia's dialogue to just say "No running," instead of "Alice, no running". But instead, they rewrote the line to say "children, no running":

So, if this was just a case of concealing Alice's identity/name (a name they'd already revealed, no less), why change SO many core parts of the scene (such as "Henry" zooming inside instead of standing at the door), and why rewrite "Virginia's" line? Why not just literally remove the word "Alice" from her line? LIke, it would have been a million times easier. I could do a quick job of it in capcut on my phone! It would take SUCH a small amount of time for them to do compared to all of the weird changes they made for the trailer & instead of recording a whole new line of dialogue for "Virginia".

And speaking of "Virginia," I mentioned this earlier, but I don't think that's Virginia Creel at all. I think that's Mother Alice Creel, from the Edward timeline. Let's look at the papers- specifically, the Weekly Watcher. The Weekly Watcher says that Alice Creel is 15 years old:

But this girl, clearly, is not 15:

And Virginia Creel's daughter, Alice Creel, should be 15 years old. But if that little blue-eyed girl is not 15, then she's not Virginia Creel's daughter. Which makes sense if she's Alice Creel's daughter, Daughter Virginia, and if the brown-eyed mother in those scenes is actually Mother Alice Creel. Like, setting aside production error allegations because I'm not dealing with those anymore, how can "this little girl who is Not 15 is Alice Creel" and "Alice Creel is 15" coexist? Frankly, I actually think there's more evidence to support the fact that the memories/scenes of that little girl being called "Alice," are unreliable than there is to debunk the newspaper saying that Alice was 15.

Why Is Alice Creel Missing From TFS?

If Karen Childress is NOT a Creel in the henry timeline/in TFS, but has blue eyes and is NOT the karen wheeler that we see in the show, as that karen has brown eyes/does NOT go on to become That Karen Wheeler Who Is Mike Wheeler's Mother

And if Daughter Virginia Creel is the blue-eyed little girl that we see in the show, and who Might be karen childress in some way.

And if Daughter Alice Creel is a.) supposed to be 15 in 1959 and b.) mysteriously missing from TFS but is also the brown-eyed Karen Wheeler that we see in the show.

Then, it might explain why Alice is missing in The First Shadow- we're seeing the backstory for another Karen Wheeler/Karen Childress ( whose actress has blue eyes and is likely NOT the Karen we see in the show), and we're also missing an Alice who later goes on to BECOME Brown Eyed Karen- which, Karen Childress and Alice Creel being together in the same timeline causes issues because if Alice Creel actually has brown eyes and goes on to become Karen Wheeler, then WHY THE HELL is she in the same timeline as the other Karen/the blue-eyed Karen??

That would be TWO KARENS IN THE SAME TIMELINE, which might explain why Alice Creel isnt there/might be tied to it. I don't know fully how it works, yet, but we don't really know the ramifications of the same person from two different timelines ending up in the same timeline together. So, if Karen Childress/Blue Eyed Karen somehow got into Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen's timeline, then there's a chance that Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Crel was removed from her original timeline, and is therefore now absent from TFS- she's likely still alive, as we see Brown Eyed Karen in the show, but that would still work completely if she simply ended up in another timeline/if Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel vanished from the Henry Timeline because Blue Eyed Karen/Karen Childress ended up in that timeline instead. And bringing up Fringe AGAIN, in Fringe, when one person or item is taken to another timeline, something of an equivalent mass must be swapped to the other timeline (like the Indiana Jones sandbag thing- with exceptions to this rule being limited to people with Specific Powers, such as Main Timeline Olivia), and this DOES include people. So, if Karen Childress/Blue Eyed Karen was chilld in a timeline that isn't the TFS timeline, and suddenly got pulled into the TFS timeline, and if Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel was the same mass (which makeas sense if they're timeline counterparts of eachother) as her, Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel would be pulled into the non-TFS timeline at the same time as when Blue Eyed Karen was pulled into the TFS timeline. Hell, there doesn't even have to be a reason for this happening/it doesn't even have to be the lab planning it! Because in Fringe, things end up pulled into another timeline/swapped simply because of the bridge/dam/veil/wall between timelines getting thinner and the swap happening accidentally. If the blue-eyed Karen Childress is NOT a Creel, and was born outside of the Creel family and coexisted alongside Daughter Virginia in the same timeline originally (before getting yoinked to another timeline), then we have three girls (as mentioned earlier)- Karen Childress, Daughter Alice Creel, and Daughter Virgniia Creel

And if Karen Childress was from Timeline A (Edward Timeline) And if Daughter Alice Creel was from Timeline B (Henry Timeline/TFS Timeline) And if Daughter Virginia Creel is also from Timeline A (Edward Timeline) And if Karen Childress got pulled into Timeline B (Henry Timeline), and Daughter Alice Creel got pulled into Timeline A (Edward Timeline), that would mean that Daughter Alice Creel and Daughter Virginia Creel are co-existing in the same timeline (The Edward Timeline). Which would explain why Brown Eyed Karen/the Karen we know in the show is just chilling and living her life I'll come back to this later, but Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel may very well have simply adopted the life of Karen Childress in the Edward Timeline, while Alice Creel stayed missing in the Henry Timeline/Karen Childress was present instead, but Karen Childress chose to keep using her original name, whereas Alice/Brown Eyed Karen adopted the name and life of Karen Childress in the other timeline.

After all, Daugher Alice Creel doesn't exist in the Edward Timeline, and because Daughter Virginia Creel would've still been present in the Edward Timeline, Daughter Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen couldn't simply pick up her life, and instead, resumed the life of Karen Childress. And it's hard to figure out what Karen Childress may have done in her new timeline/if she had a family/if her parents were present in this timeline or WHAT, but a lot of this section is just Me Speculating And Trying To Figure Things Out.

However, things also get tricky here, because if Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen never returned to her original timeline, then why does the Weekly Watcher report on her death? However, even witih all my theorizing aside, this is an issue that remains even simply with the fact that Alice doesn't seem to be present in TFS- so if she's not around for the murders, how did she die/why are papers reporting about her death? I think there's room there for lab fuckery faking things/covering things up etc etc, but it's still something to chew on.

(and there's ALSO the chance of more than 2 timelines which throws a whole NEW wrench into things)

And you might also be wondering "well, though, how is Daugher Alice Creel Karen Childress' timeline counterpart? Shouldn't Daughter Virginia Creel be Daughter Alice's timeline counterpart? To which I say: no! Not necessariily. There's a LOT of weirdness here, but it's worth noting that ST has chosen a very interesting way to go about the timeline counterpart business, because there's quite a bit of variation. For example, Victor Creel's name stays the same in both the Henry timeline and the Edward timeline AND his position in the family stays the same (the father/husband), but he's younger by 5 years in the Edward timeline compared to the Henry timeline. Edward and Henry's position in the family (son/brother) stays the same, but his name changes to something entirely new, and we don't know Edward's age, so we don't know if that changes. Virginia Creel and Alice Creel are where things get REALLY messy, because they swap names and positions in the family depending on the timeline. Instead of just keeping the same name and position the way that Victor does, OR getting a totally brand new, not used in the family before name but keeping the same position in the family the way that Henry and Edward do, Virginia and Alice instead, swap names and positions in the family with eachother. Virginia Creel is Victor's wife and Henry and Alice's mother in the Henry timeline. However, Virginia Creel is Victor's daughter and Edward's sister and Alice's daughter in the Edward timeline. Alice Creel is Victor's daughter and Henry's sister in the Henry Timeline. However, Alice Creel is Victor's wife and Edward and Virginia's mother in the Edward timeline. And also, in Fringe, timeline counterparts are often messy too/not exactly equal/not always born at the same time- for example Henry Bishop was born and didn't have a timeline counterpart at ALL because there's only one version of his father (Peter Bishop), as the other timeline Peter died as a child. But then Henry Bishop is later erased from the timeline and Peter has a child named Henrietta (born in the opposite timeline from Henry/is Olivia's daughter born in the main timeline rather than Henry who was Fauxlivia's son born in the alternate timeline), but again, because there is only ONE Peter, he fathered both of them and then Henry ceased to exist, and it's all complicated etc.

So, point is, timeline counterpart stuff is not cut and dry or particularly simple or easy here. Which means that there's absolutely stilll room for a.) certain people not HAVING co-existing timeline counterparts the way that Henry and Henrietta don't actually have one because in order for Henrietta to exist, Henry can't exist, and vice versa because there's only one Peter and b.) timeline counterparts just generally being weird/ Karen Childress being Alice Creel's timeline counterpart.

The idea of Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel swapping timeline with Karen Childress/wondering why Karen Childress and Alice Creel were timeline counterparts/got swapped instead of Daughter Virginia and Daugher Alice would also tie into Daugher Alice Creel being listed as 15 years old in 1959 in the Weekly Watcher- if Alice Creel was 15 years old but Daugher Virginia (the blonde little girl we see in the show that we think is Alice) is CLEARLY not 15, they're not going to have equal mass- but Karen Childress, could totally be 15, hence why those two would be more likely to swap that Daughter Virginia and Daughter Alice, as Daughter Virginia and Daughter Alice seem to be two different ages/that little blonde girl is not 15, but Karen Childress and Daugher Alice/Bornw Eyed Karen could definitely have both been 15 and therefore far closer to being the same mass.

And also, if Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen simply adopted the name and life of Karen Childress after their timelines got swapped (and possibly even gained Karen's memories over time, which as mentioned before, happens in Fringe), then Brown Eyed Karen Wheeler may very well, at this point, believe herself to have always been Karen Childress. As mentioned before, somebody believing themselves to be their alternate timeline counterpart after swapping timelines HAS happened in Fringe. This may also be why Ted and Karen's relationship is so unhappy- Brown Eyed Karen isn't the Karen that Ted originally knew. And this Ted isn't the Ted that Brown Eyed Karen originally knew. And Ted might know deep down that something isn't right (again, this happens in Fringe with people whose loved ones get timeline swapped. Sometimes they notice, sometimes they dont, sometimes they say something about it, sometimes they don't.) Anyway! Lots to think about.

SECTION 3: THE CONNIE PROBLEM

So, this all also leaves us with the question of Connie, though. Why does she have so much Alice Creel coding? Like, the name alice plays on screen twice with her & her body's posed the same way as alice's dead body.

However, I made that post about how TFS blue eyed Virginia resembles Connie. And we don't know what happens to that blue eyed virginia, we only saw a brown eyed "virginia" die. And that blonde little girl with blue eyes is presented to us as being alice creel, but a.) alice creel should be 15 and b.) the whole thing w her name being removed from the trailer.

And so im like. Connie. Are you blue-eyed TFS virginia a few years down the line? Which would be weird if that tfs mother is virginia and not alice, but there's so much name swap fuckery that the association with the name alice could still fit somehow/I just need to dig more. Anyway, things are making me insane as usual.

SECTION 4: CONCLUSION

My conclusion summed up?

And before you come into my inbox calling me insane, please know that a.) I know and I'm having fun and b.) lots of this is speculation. There's parts with firmer evidence, and there's parts with less firm evidence/parts where I'm just trying to fill in the gaps. My main point is that it doesn't make any damn sense for that little blonde girl to be Alice Creel if Alice Creel is supposed to be 15, and ALSO that there's plausible evidence (such as the trailer removing her name) that she isn't Alice Creel, and that her not being Alice Creel may explain why Alice Creel is missing from TFS. This post is less evidence-focused than most of my posts because a.) so much is still up in the air with TFS and b.) I am very very tired today LMAO, but there's still some solid chunks of evidence in here that I think are worth considering.

#stranger things #alice creel #edward creel #timeline theory #henry creel #st creel timeline weirdness #karen wheeler #the creelers

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tender-emotional-music · 7 months ago

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Delving into the Creeler theories is so interesting. Seeing a few accounts point out the casting alone is very 🤔🤔 Carmen Cuba is a genius honestly. I feel like there’s a lot to say about the thematic parallels between the families and Mike/Nancy/Karen’s battle with normalcy. Anyway, this is cool to get into so imma keep looking into the theories, and @henrysglock talks a lot about this theory if u want to, too

#creelers #wheeler family #it’s cool to catch up on theories I missed when I left the fandom #and there’s so long before s5 so really nothing to lose

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unlockedcuriositydoor · 1 year ago

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Karen being Alice Creel makes it all unthinkably tragic - does this mean Mike will blame himself for what has happened to Will? If a great deal of Vecna's plan comes down to vengeance upon the family that abandoned his young self, then targeting Mike by targeting Will, the most special person to Mike, was of course just the beginning.

But I do think Will was targeted for something intrinsic to Will himself, as well. The connection between Mike and Will and what harm may come to them because of it is worth a hundred posts, but I'll try to keep this first one brief.

I think of Karen and Mike's reunion at the end of season 4. The first thing she told him was not that she was relieved and happy to see him, but that he was "never going on vacation again." No college either - "you are staying right here," she insisted. Right here, in this fucked up, broken town? Why? Perhaps there is something about Mike's presence in Hawkins that keeps Vecna in check, so to speak. And perhaps this applies to all of the Wheelers, not only Mike. I think, though, that Mike is the key to all of this. Throughout season 4, we see Mike physically and psychically drained. Perhaps Vecna is siphoning energy from him. As Vecna gains strength, Mike loses it. By the end of season 4, Vecna is badly hurt and down for the count - and it's only then that Mike gathers the strength and conviction to reach across the divide and make physical contact with Will.

Vecna targeted another physically drained person - Chrissy, who had an eating disorder.

Mike's trip to California may have well been the first time Mike ever left Hawkins. Maybe, if Nancy had left too, things would've gotten even worse in Hawkins. Vecna chose her to hit with a blast of True Sight for a reason.

This may explain why Karen conducts a life she does not find fulfilling - she considers it a duty to carry out. Something of both real world and supernatural consequence.

#byler #you're my target audience again #creeler clues #working out some preliminary theories #uncle vecna fuckery

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thatonesongyouretryingtoremember · 2 years ago

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Okay I get that the familial reverence's allude to the eventual revalation that El and Mike are cousins via Edward&Virginia Creel, but "Will you be like my brother?" Fucking. It Messes With Me, Bro.

Like I get that El was excited to have a brother again like Henry and, well, not 002, but the little ones probably. BUT

It would be too easy to match on to El's want for normalcy and have Mike say "Living with us, you'll have a real family," and El say "I will get to be like Eleanor for real? We can be cousins?" Or some shit like that for them to use the sibling line. I def think their bond is more siblings-like, but if this line paired with the Swedish Cousin Trap refer to the other mind of evidence that they're cousins specifically by blood, why the fUCk is it phrased like that???

#eleanor creel #stranger things #timeline theory #the creelers

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aemiron-main · 1 year ago

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Nobody’s saying that she’s Karen’s mother or sister (at least not as far as I see)! What james and I are saying is that Connie Frazier is Mother Alice and Karen Wheeler is Daughter Virginia (as in the indianapolis gazette paper/the edward timeline, Virginia Creel is Edward Creel’s sister and Alice Creel is Edward Creel’s mother), and that Linda Hamilton could be playing Mother Alice/Connie Frazier.

Basically. Two timelines.

Timeline 1: Alice Creel is Henry Creel’s sister (and is not connie frazier in this timeline) and Virginia Creel is Henry Creel’s mother.

Timeline 2: Alice Creel is Edward Creel’s sister (and IS connie frazier in this timeline who we’re saying might be played by linda hamilton), and Virginia Creel is Edward Creel’s sister (again, this sister-mother swap is written out in the indianapolis gazette, see this post.)

put them together and what do you get…

they DID say no new characters…

#timeline theory #st creel timeline weirdness #the creelers

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aemiron-main · 1 year ago

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Does Mike Have Powers?

So, regarding the Mike discourse lately, there has to be a middle ground between “Mike has powers stronger than El and Henry’s combined and created the whole world” versus “Mike has nothing weird about him at all supernaturally whatsoever and people are overinflating his importance/he’s narratively not supposed to be a superhero and therefore he can’t have any sort of powers”.

Like, regarding the second point, it totally ignores things like Mike sensing El in the void & that same wording being used to describe Victor “sensing” something in the attic:

I am Not Saying that Mike has powers exactly like El’s. Just like how Victor doesn’t have powers exactly like Henry’s.

I Am saying that I think people should be more open to the idea of Mike having some sort of “sensing” ability/has the same thing going on that victor had going on, especially if he literally inherited it from Victor, via Karen being Victor’s daughter in the Edward Timeline/Karen being Daughter Virginia, and Mike being Victor’s grandson as a result.

(see this post list for an explanation of the Edward timeline Creel-Wheeler stuff)

So, Mike having some sort of “powers” doesn’t mean that he suddenly has to be a superhero. It just means there’s smthn weird going on with the Creels and the Wheelers, and whatever the hell Victor had going on is likely what Mike has going on too. I do think that people rely too heavily sometimes on the narrative that they believe exists in ST at the expense of ignoring more of the hard evidence/parallels in the show. It wouldn’t be something new for Mike, it would be something he’s already had all along and has already been feeling/using/experiencing (see: him sensing El). So, it wouldn’t suddenly turn him into a superhero.

Hell, I’m not even saying that all of the different pieces of evidence that seem to tie Mike to supernatural stuff are true/I’m not even saying he has powers or sensing abilities for sure (although I think he does have smthn in that regard going on), but what I am saying is that “Mike can’t have powers narratively because his arc is about not being a superhero” is not an effective rebuttal to the harder evidence that’s In The Show re: Mike and the supernatural.

Providing a different explanation for that evidence is fair and isn’t what I’m criticizing, but just handwaving it away because of your own views on what the narrative is/what you think it should be isn’t fair/accurate.

#stranger things #mike wheeler #the creelers #st creel timeline weirdness #timeline theory

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aemiron-main · 7 months ago

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me, watching people post the edward stuff to twitter literally copy pasted from my posts & act like they came up with all of it like

#stranger things #em rants #esp since one of the people is someone ive tried to talk to abt it before and like #they just responded by being a dick and doubling down #which is frustrating because they would like. straight up copy my stuff RIGHT after i posted it and act like it was Their Own Unique Thought #like pleassseeeeee its just a little annoying when ive put sooo much work into it and #you have people on twt SPECIFICALLY ASKING asking you about the origins of the theories youre talking about #and people just. act like they came up with it/cant even be like ‘oh yeah over on tumblr heres an explanation-‘#like if you can even fully explain the theory yourself so ppl arent confused #why not direct them over here #i just. gwhebwnwn #this also gets extra annoying when i see it happen from #people that i KNOW are on tumblr #like… blease #and i dont mean this in a ‘NOBODY CAN TALK ABOUT EDWARD EXCEPT ME’ way #i mean it in a ‘please stop acting like you thought of all of the edward and creeler stuff ESPECIALLY when people specifically ASK about the #origins of the theories’ way #ffs ive even got a youtube video you can link for easy access

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aemiron-main · 1 year ago

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staring at chrissy’s hair originally being super similar to karen’s:

and staring at karen being virginia creel from another timeline/being daughter virginia. especially with the above parallels between chrissy and karen vs the parallels between chrissy’s death and virginia’s death:

and hopper talking about screwing chrissy carpenter in the back of her dad’s oldsmobile vs the creel car being an oldsmobile:

what is going on here.

#stranger things #karen wheeler #chrissy cunningham #the creelers #st karen is daughter virginia #karen wheeler costuming #st creel timeline weirdness #timeline theory

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thatonesongyouretryingtoremember · 2 years ago

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When Mike admits he's gay I wanna hear "I know.. somehow, I've always known.." make everyone instantly reminded of Leia.

Bonus points if he says it when El tells him they're cousins tho

Extra Bonus Points if Mike says he loves Will and Will's like "I know" because. He does know. Mike shows it.

That part's more of a cherry on top, the first bit is Creeler foreshadowing

#the creelers #elmike #timeline theory #eleanor creel

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thatonesongyouretryingtoremember · 2 years ago

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When Mike admits he's gay I wanna hear "I know.. somehow, I've always known.." make everyone instantly reminded of Leia.

Bonus points if it says it when El tells him they're cousins tho

Extra Bonus Points if Mike says he loves Will and Will's like "I know" because. He does know. Mike shows it.

That part's more of a cherry on top, the first bit is Creeler foreshadowing

#the creelers #elmike #timeline theory #eleanor creel

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aemiron-main-backup · 1 year ago

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//POST BACKUP//

alice creel isn’t karen wheeler- but she might be somebody else: an analysis of alice creel and connie frazier and jefferson airplane’s white rabbit

So, I think there’s a solid chance that “Connie Frazier,” might be Alice Creel.

Alice was 15 in 1959, and therefore was born in 1944, which would make her 39 in 1983.

Connie’s age isn’t confirmed anywhere, unfortunately, but the actress who plays her, Catherine Dyer, was 58 as of 2016, when S1 was filmed. Admittedly, this is a fairly large gap between what Alice’s age should be vs what Catherine Dyer’s age is, however, Mike Wheeler is also supposed to be fourteen, so I think that the ages of the actors vs the characters in ST has a bit of wiggle room.

I’m not just basing this off of looks, though- the name “Alice,” literally plays in a scene where Connie’s face is on screen/it’s focused on Connie.

The lyric “go ask Alice,” plays during this scene, and even cuts to Connie RIGHT as the name “Alice,” is sung, having focused on Benny for the “go ask,” part of the line.

(BECAUSE THIS IS A BACKUP OF THE POST, I CAN'T ADD THE VIDEO FROM THE OG POST BUT YOU CAN GO AND WATCH THE SCENE FOR YOURSELF IN S1 AND LISTEN FOR IT DURING THE SCENE W THE SCREENSHOT BELOW)

And prior to this scene at the door, we also have the “call Alice,” lyric that plays, which, right as it plays Benny says “Whoever it is, I’ll tell them to go away real quick.” The fact that the name “Alice,” plays right after Benny talks about going to see who is at the door is suspicious, almost like it’s Alice at the door.

As well, the full line for the “call alice,” part goes “call alice- when she was just small.” And Alice Creel was small/15 years old the first/last time we saw her (1959) but now is not small anymore/is grown up.

That’s two instances of Connie being referred to while the name “Alice,” plays in the show. The first time, it literally cuts to Connie’s face as the name “Alice,” is sung, and the second time, Benny talks about seeing who is at the door (Connie) while we hear Connie knocking and the name “Alice,” is sung once again.

It’s also interesting that Benny literally called Connie/called social services and Connie/the lab seem to have been listening in on the call and interfered. And if Connie is Alice, then Benny literally called Alice.

Also, it almost seems like Connie’s has her mind wiped- she’s extremely focused on her mission, seems to have little personality or interests outside of it, and kills Benny in cold blood with basically zero hesitation.

And look at how Connie lays on the ground, bleeding from her eyes, compared to how Alice laid on the ground, supposedly bleeding from her eyes.

It’s also interesting to me that they chose to revisit Connie’s death in S4, the same season where we’re introduced to Alice Creel for the first time. Sullivan hands Owens a picture of Connie’s death when talking about El- almost like ST production is giving us a subtle reminder of what Connie’s death looked like and how eerily similar it was to Alice’s “death.”

I’m not 100% sure if Connie is Alice yet, but the parallels are definitely interesting, and if Brenner picked up Henry from the Creel house that night (which he did), then I don’t think it’s a stretch for him to have grabbed Alice too. What if Henry is part of what happens when MKultra brainwashing fails, but Connie/Alice is what happens when it succeeds? Not the powers part of it persay but simply the *brainwashing* part and destruction and rebuilding of the mind that was involved in the real mkultra. (The two main steps for mind control were thought to be to wipe then mind snd then rebuild it, which likely would’ve been what happened to Alice). And even though Alice seems dead at the Creel house, there’s so much weirdness with all of those scenes and the position of her body changes throughout various retellings and she seems like her eyes may not even be bleeding in some of them- she may also have regenerative healing like Henry (and likely like Virginia) which would explain her survival.

And then we also get this scene- look at the curtains. We have the orange curtain behind Connie and the orange curtain behind Virginia, and we have both Connie and Virginia wearing orange plaid and they both have similar hairstyles, and the blanket behind Connie is the same sort of orange and white colours as Virginia’s shirt and the framing with the OTS shot of Victor in Virginia’s screenshot vs the OTS shot of Scott in Connie’s screenshot- if Connie is Alice, then it would make sense to parallel grown-up Alice to her mother (Virginia).

It’s also interesting to me that they chose scott for this scene- scott, who would’ve been at school at the same time as Henry and likely would’ve met Alice at some point, but wouldn’t recognize her anymore, especially because she’s supposed to be dead.

alice creel isn’t karen wheeler- but she might be somebody else: an analysis of alice creel and connie frazier and jefferson airplane’s white rabbit

So, I think there’s a solid chance that “Connie Frazier,” might be Alice Creel.

Alice was 15 in 1959, and therefore was born in 1944, which would make her 39 in 1983.

I’m not just basing this off of looks, though- the name “Alice,” literally plays in a scene where Connie’s face is on screen/it’s focused on Connie.

The lyric “go ask Alice,” plays during this scene, and even cuts to Connie RIGHT as the name “Alice,” is sung, having focused on Benny for the “go ask,” part of the line.

And look at how Connie lays on the ground, bleeding from her eyes, compared to how Alice laid on the ground, supposedly bleeding from her eyes.

#stranger things #alice creel #the creelers #alice creeler #mother alice #creel family #st creel timeline weirdness #timeline theory

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henrysglock · 5 months ago

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Sorry if this annoying i just curious how the el and mike related vs willel twin theory different to you like how one is make more senes i want to understand generally and the reason i put see willel twins for more post about is people can general explain better then i can like you do sometime with other post I would link it but this is anonymous since i dont have a strange things focus account and I dont want to seem like a troll or something

One makes more sense than the other because one has a consistent thread of highly specific Creel symbolism (like roses, turning back the clock, Mike's constant similarities to TFS Henry, Nancy and the Wheelers being cherry-picked by Vecna, Nancy's picture of the "Happy Birthday, Virginia" cake, direct Luke-Leia parallels with El and Mike, Holly being an explorer vs "Henry" being an explorer, casting similarities, and so much more) that can't be explained away by other things.

I can find you a million other explanations for El recognizing Will, El and Will being styled similarly, so on and so forth if I wanted to put the effort into doing so (I'm a little busy with my thesis on TFS at the moment), but Will is not connected to the Creels in the same way that Mike and the other Wheelers are (it's not just Mike!).

Will doesn't have the familial ties that Mike has to the Creels. That makes Creeler theory more believable to me.

#asks

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throne-of-crows · 6 months ago

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I worded the part about Mike creating the UD badly. I didn't mean to imply that you said he did. I was pointing out that the creation of the UD and the creation of El go hand in hand (at least in regard to the manifestation theory) so I don't think the theory fits Mike very well because he only fits one part of it is what I meant.

I completely agree with the Mike and El ties to the Creels, I love the creeler theories. The comments about Patty are interesting, I haven't watched TFS yet (I really want to) so I don't know much about it because I don't want to purposefully spoil it for myself.

Have you got posts about it not being the same UD as the others went into? If you do where on your blog are they?

I’ve seen your posts against the theory of El being created by Will as a manifestation of his trauma and I was wondering if you’ve considered how this could link to Edward being the other version of Henry. I don’t know everything about the Henward stuff but I have read a lot of @aemiron-main posts about it and some of yours.

Considering how much Will and Henry are paralleled do you not think it could be a possibility that Will created El as a response to trauma the same way Henry possibly created Edward? Or like how Edward was possibly split off from Henry. Could El not be split off from Will in a similar way?

Also in regards to Edward, I’ve seen a lot about the idea of the lab faking memories and Edward having fake memories as he was created from Henry and never actually had a childhood. Could a similar thing not be the case for El?

I just find it a bit strange that the Henry fans seem to be the most against this theory when it seems to align with a lot of the other theories that you guys have.

Also to be clear I do understand why you and others would consider the theory misogynistic however in my opinion there is too much evidence for it to completely right it off just because of that. I’m not saying it is definitely true however there is something there with how Will and El are paralleled so often and all the other evidence.

Also I think this theory could be true without it erasing El as her own character. Her arc has been about independence and learning who she is. Just because she was originally created by Will doesn’t mean that she can’t exist herself at all. The two could go hand in hand with her learning who she is despite originally being created by Will. She clearly is real in the sense that everyone else can see her and she is real person so I don’t think this theory necessarily has to result in El dying or not existing.

I’m interested to hear your opinion on this and whether you think there could be a connection between the two in any way.

To start us off, I'd like to raise a point about Will-Henry paralleling: Mike and "Henry" in TFS are heavily paralleled. Then couldn't Mike be responsible for creating El out of grief over losing Will, creating someone who could find Will, and/or creating someone it's socially acceptable for him to love...then becoming upset and detached when she doesn't perform the same function in his life that Will does? With Mike/the Wheeler family's ties to the Creel family in-show, which are just as numerous as Will's parallels to Henry, plus the extremely heavy-handed Mike-Henry parallels in TFS. All that on top of Patty-El paralleling and how Patty doesn't seem to be real/seems to act as a manifestation of Henry's mommy issues than a real girlfriend. I'm not even a manifestation theory truther in the slightest, but I'd almost peg that as more plausible.

My issue with the manifestation theory, particularly re: El, actually goes deeper than that. It's fundamentally flawed because Henry exists. El is a product of the experimentation on Henry. The theory with Henry and Edward is lab-faked memories, as in memories implanted in one or the other by Hawkins Labs. That doesn't fit in here. If it did, El would still be lab-created...Unless we want to argue that Will created the lab, which means he also created Brenner, Henry/Edward, Owens, all this real, tangible stuff. It's not just El they would have to create. It would be everyone who had a hand in creating El.

As for timeline stuff, there are two most plausible options.

The timelines existed in parallel all along, therefore there's no "splitting point"

There is an original splitting point, and it happened long before Will and El, possibly even before Henry and Edward.

If there is an original split at all, the split seems to have happened before Henry and Edward with Captain Brenner and the whole Philadelphia Experiment thing in 1943, because we then have this Richard and Martin deal that seems to crop up before Henry and Edward. In this case, though, an El-Jane split would be a more reasonable conclusion here.

Shifting gears a little, other posts on the topic (because this isn't an individualized criticism, it's broad) have also managed to reduce El's lab-specific trauma responses and lack of socialization to "El is just Will with superpowers and guts, everything he wishes he could be", which misses the root cause of her behaving the way she does while also painting evidence of her suffering as something good and desirable.

On top of that...simplified, this interpretation becomes "evidence of a woman's suffering is created by a man because those are traits he wishes he could embody." -> "a woman's suffering results in desirable traits". Not cute.

Another issue I have is that manifestation theories center Will (or Mike, depending who's manifesting) in El's story. It centers a man in a woman's struggle for independence from men. That's an added layer that Henry and Edward don't have to contend with.

This all doesn't even go into the aspect of people claiming that once Will accepts himself and comes into his own, El is no longer needed, thus, she dies (yes, I've seen that take). I've also seen people taking all of Henry's clock stuff and attibuting it to Will. This theory doesn't just do a disservice to El, but also to a raft of other characters...all while being riddled with easily-poked holes.

Lastly, I'd like to address this bit:

I just find it a bit strange that the Henry fans seem to be the most against this theory when it seems to align with a lot of the other theories that you guys have.

I'm not disagreeing as a Henry fan. I'm disagreeing as an analyst. Just because I subscribe to timeline theory doesn't mean I'm going to subscribe to any and everything that involves splitting a character in two. This theory doesn't actually align with much else we've had to say, for the reasons I've listed above re: Henry and Edward.

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