#considering they think grrm gave sansa

[alaynestcnes]

joffrey and jon anti parallels makes me crazy in relation to jonsa : joffrey = king/prince who's secretly a bastard, jon = a bastard who's secretly a prince heir.

both have Uncle/dads(joffrey is literal😭) wrapped in secrecy plots, joffrey knows who his mother is jon does not. they both THINK they know who their father is but its false.

jon has close and complicated ties with his siblings/family, joffrey has complicated but distant almost non existent ties with his family.

Sansa dreams of marrying joffrey the "rightful dragon heir" at the beginning only to hate him and sansa doesn't think much of Jon earlier only later in the books does it hint at them getting closer

looking at all of this its impossible for me to think grrm wouldn't pull an irony stunt with jonsa, considering the ashford theory and them having reversal roles in sansa's beginning and end plot points

the joff/jon anti parallels are so special. like i will die on the hill that grrm is one of the great literary geniuses of our time because of the way he interlaces storylines, plays into stereotypes to subvert them, mirrors and plays with themes between all his characters. you could dedicate your life to analysing them (and people have) and still always have new things to discover and discuss.

the ‘prince who is really a bastard’ vs ‘bastard that is really a prince’ parallel is fun on its own. but when you add an extra lens of both their (real and potential) relationships with sansa it’s enough to make me feral.

i think it’s interesting how grrm really reinforces the joff/jon contrast (and positions sansa as a nexus within this contrast) when they both (essentially) deliver her a head. joff, her perfect fairytale prince, gives her her father’s head. jon, the prince hidden in plain sight, beheads janos slynt and answers her prayers. though this isn’t known to either of them, it’s an interesting connection that i find hard to believe was coincidental by grrm. the head joff gave her fractured her dreams and belief in songs/hope. maybe when she learns about the head jon (inadvertently) gave her, it will contrast again with joff, by reigniting a sense of hope and love….

it would be such a compelling way to bookend sansa’s romantic experience.

[atopvisenyashill]

I read through your Jonsa meta linked in your bio and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to really love Jonsa but the part where you say J*nerys evidence is weak sauce like I do like the ship but I only want it if it doesn’t go like the show and it also isn’t just some boring king and queen of the seven kingdoms crap but do think what people call foreshadowing for the ship is no stronger than Jonsa foreshadowing but I get dog piled by other J*nerys shippers for admitting this. I do think some common evidence for Jonsa is questionable. Like that GRRM was originally going to have Janos be hung until someone ELSE pointed out that Jon would probably do it the northern way and behead him, or that lady Ashford didn’t end up with the Targaryen suitor. But even still I don’t think that the evidence for J*nerys is strong. Like sorry I don’t think Dany being called bride of fire implies she’ll marry Jon I think she already is the bride of fire. I used to hate Jonsa but I realized that I feel very neutral to it. What I hate is the thought of a love triangle with Jon, Dany, and Sansa. The idea of Dany going mad because she loves Jon but Jon loves Sansa is just so tired and boring and sexist. I understand that a lot of the spite towards J*nerys fans is earned because they can be just as spiteful but my first introductions to Jonsa were in the context of this love triangle and the attitude was so spiteful that it put a bad taste in my mouth for years. But even when I did hate it I felt like other J*nerys fans were being hypocritical when they made of Jonsas for their theories. And I got shat on and accused of being a Jonsa myself for saying so. Like it’s eyebrow raising that George revised his Stark family tree to include a marriage between a Jonnel and a Sansa. Regardless of what George originally wrote, Jon beheading Janos is compelling. I do see the vision even it’s not for me. Jon and Dany don’t know each other exist. I think the only thing that really gives J*nerys leverage is that they loved each other in the show and I’ve always had a hard time believing that George actually gave D&D like two plot points and turned them loose to do literally whatever they could come up with. If the show didn’t exist, you’d be hard pressed to convince me there was a viable chance J*nerys would happen and I really just hate the animosity between Jonsa and J*nerys shippers

I’m gonna take this point by point bc it’s kind of a lot and I want to address it all!!

do think what people call foreshadowing for the ship is no stronger than Jonsa foreshadowing but I get dog piled by other J*nerys shippers for admitting this.

LISTEN i’m glad you agree lmaoooo because my number one bitter hater issue re: the ship war IS that imo the “evidence” for both is kinda opaque, but only one is treated as being legitimate fan analysis. like, people will call sansa’s ghost wolf a reach but dany hearing the lonely wolf is full proof even tho this is the exact same thing. or the entire hullabaloo around how when you use the ashford tourney theory to be about Not Jonsa it's valid analysis but when it is about Jonsa then that's just pushing your ship. it’s the silliness of the argument that drives me crazy, that one take is considered “just starting a ship war” and one is the “proper” reading of the text. we don't know who is properly reading the text because we don't have the entire text yet!!!

I do think some common evidence for Jonsa is questionable. Like that GRRM was originally going to have Janos be hung until someone ELSE pointed out that Jon would probably do it the northern way and behead him, or that lady Ashford didn’t end up with the Targaryen suitor.

WAIT OKAY i'm not trying to convert you here lmao, merely explaining my reasoning for those because I know I talk about the Jason/Ashford thing a lot specifically so - the janos slynt thing for me is less the specificity that jon cuts his head off and more that sansa wishes for someone to kill janos for his hand in ned’s death and jon, without any knowledge of what janos did or how it affected sansa, sees straight to the sort of person janos is and executes him. more so about the idea that sansa is praying for a hero only for the hero to be the bastard brother she had dismissed, the only brother left to her now (or so she thinks). it's about the little ~invisible thread~ tying them together even when they're unaware of it.

as for the ashford tourney theory, i actually do agree that people put a little too much stock in the last targaryen suitor aspect of it BUT. EYE personally have been on that "it's hinting towards brienne" train literally since I heard it, and you can see that in the posts I've made about it, that I think it's about dunk/brienne interrupting the tourney to save sansa - it's just that part of saving sansa includes bringing her to her dark haired targaryen brother-cousin. especially bc imo valarr does feature heavily enough in the original dunk adventure, with his short scene after Baelor is killed, and how both valarr and jon have a lot of issues surrounding not measuring up to The Perfect Heir (baelor/robb), and being known for being kinda prickly, and the whole Doomed By The Narrative aspect of their characters, and this isn't something that valarr parallels with the other targaryen boy, aegon/young griff. BUT also I just think the whole convo surrounding this theory is annoying tbh alsdjf I think there are three concrete avenues it could go down (jon, aegon, or brienne, or some combo of the three even) and I find it. frustrating that this theory started out as a {redacted} theory that is clearly meant to push A Specific Ship And Reading Of The Text but if you apply the theory to literally anyone else, you get accused of doing just that. like are we not all just pushing A Specific Reading (aka OUR OWN READING) Of The Text here??

But even still I don’t think that the evidence for J*nerys is strong. Like sorry I don’t think Dany being called bride of fire implies she’ll marry Jon I think she already is the bride of fire. I used to hate Jonsa but I realized that I feel very neutral to it. What I hate is the thought of a love triangle with Jon, Dany, and Sansa. The idea of Dany going mad because she loves Jon but Jon loves Sansa is just so tired and boring and sexist.

NO YEAH. it's the same with the "blue rose" thing like.....the blue rose/bael the bard story isn't a happy one? "sweet smelling" is often used in this series as a mask for a deadly, poisonous center. I think "bride of fire" is a callback to catelyn's "wedded to his war" more than anything, that like you say, dany is already the bride of fire, she chose the fire when she burned mmd and walked into the pyre, and i kind of bristle at the idea that her being the bride of fire is tied to whatever man she's fucking. the point is that she is foregoing being the bride of a man for being the bride of fire to me!! and also VALID i don't like the love triangle angle, i don't like love triangles because i think they're usually so lopsided where you're clearly supposed to pick a specific leg of the triangle, and i just HATE the idea that either dany or sansa or jon's stories are heading to a love triangle because it's not particularly compelling to me that they're fighting over the same stupid boy (i can call him stupid, he's my son). especially as you say, the idea that dany might turn on jon because she wants his love and he won't give it - bleh. annoying, tired, been done a million times. this is why i'm also not overly fond of the idea of him being the one to kill her (but i like the idea of him taking the fall for it regardless).

I understand that a lot of the spite towards J*nerys fans is earned because they can be just as spiteful but my first introductions to Jonsa were in the context of this love triangle and the attitude was so spiteful that it put a bad taste in my mouth for years. But even when I did hate it I felt like other J*nerys fans were being hypocritical when they made of Jonsas for their theories. And I got shat on and accused of being a Jonsa myself for saying so. Like it’s eyebrow raising that George revised his Stark family tree to include a marriage between a Jonnel and a Sansa. Regardless of what George originally wrote, Jon beheading Janos is compelling. I do see the vision even it’s not for me. Jon and Dany don’t know each other exist.

i bolded that one line because YES EXACTLY it is very eyebrow raising that he revised the family tree to include that. like WHY. WHAT? imo, if there was a like a Jonos Targaryen who married a Daenerys Targaryen in the targ family tree, EVERYONE would be insisting that's Jonerys proof so I think it's funny when people brush over it. Or like, the fact that it's Jon and Sansa that dream of having children. The fact that it's only Jon and Sansa who are referred to as the blood of Winterfell. There's something here that's being hinted at, and it's compelling! I think I definitely do get being initially turned off because of the ship war - part of my initial, idk, aggressiveness towards dany on the reread was the DEADLY combo of YEARS of watching The ASOIAF{redacted but if you know u know] People dogpile jonsas and sansa stans constantly for literally just writing meta, making theories, like every other goddamn person + growing to just completely hate show!dany and emilia's acting specifically. then as i was rereading i was like oh actually book dany is not only vastly more interesting as a character than show dany's writing or acting could ever be, i also just don't have to let all the targ nation stans completely ruin a character i actually really like.

like this theory specifically by stumpy (which is another post that got dogpiled massively for no goddamn good reason by the asoiaf{redacted} people) about aegon being the sun's son and jon being the mummer's dragon set my brain on fire and made me realize so much of what i hated about dany's character was actually just the wank surrounding her. i'd completely resigned myself to the idea that jonerys was gonna happen for so long and i was so depressed ver it because i thought it was a stupid, shitty ending and i was just going to hate a large part of the ending forever and then i read that and i was like "oh actually maybe there's another option??" like who gives a shit, we're never getting the next books anyway alksjdfl. also FOR THE RECORD i also HATE the idea of a love triangle between those three, and i think i kinda break from a lot of jonsas (tho not all) in that i also don't like the idea of jon killing dany (again, i want it to be arya and for jon to take the fall. if jon is killing anyone, i like the idea of it being drogon much more than dany). like, i don't want any hetero targ fucking here. i think there could be something here in that both dany and jon feel they have to be attracted to each other but in reality are just Not Interested (for a variety of reasons) but i don't actually want them to do the deed at all and I've been firm on that since I was like, 16 lajsflkfd.

I think the only thing that really gives Jnerys leverage is that they loved each other in the show and I’ve always had a hard time believing that George actually gave D&D like two plot points and turned them loose to do literally whatever they could come up with. If the show didn’t exist, you’d be hard pressed to convince me there was a viable chance Jnerys would happen and I really just hate the animosity between Jonsa and J*nerys shippers

WAIT WAIT WAIT THIS IS WHERE SNOWSPEAR COMES IN. I can write more on that, I know i've mentioned it before, but I think that show!Dany got a lot, perhaps even most of Aegon's storyline in the books and that includes a relationship with Jon. I'm not saying they'll straight up fuck on page (george is alas too heterosexual for that) but I do think the vast majority of their story arc in season 7 where Jon is going back and forth with Dany and growing close to her while being wary of her is actually a relationship he'll have with Aegon. I think that makes much more sense thematically and also it doesn't piss me off lmao.

I think in general, they took his plot points and just kinda peppered it throughout the character's actions with no regard for whether it makes sense for that character. Or are just being straight up misleading about what it is they got from him - like their insistence that "hold the door" is from him, for example, I think in actuality here George told them that Hodor will be killed while Bran is warging him and purposefully leaving him behind, and they came up with that dumb ass hold the door -> hodor thing on their own. same for arya killing the night king - EYE think arya tries something against dany, but they gave it jon because they thought it would be more romantic (and they already combined dany and aegon) and went "well arya killing the night king would be sick as fuck, that's basically the same right?" like, i think there's something of what george wrote in there, i just think it's both confusingly folded in and also spread around a lot.

i think i even explained that to my sibling once (who doesn't read the series but does like some of the characters) that I think because they combined so many characters, that they wanted this friction between tyrion and jon, between sansa and dany, but had cut so many story lines and disregarded so many characters, that they just changed up the romance a bit (which we KNOW they do because look what they did to Jeyne W. and the entire Dornish plot).

anyways, yeah the tldr is that ship wars are stupid as shit and it's really hard to not become a hater when a large part of the fandom is constantly discounting your opinion because you ship a thing they don't like, and then claiming YOU are the one egging on the ship war when you are just existing in your goddamn corner. like i don't even use the vs tag half the time specifically because of that shit ya know. i'm not arguing whether my opinion is "right" or not with someone who thinks they're superior and smarter than me just because they think THEIR incest ship is valid but MY incest ship is gross and self projection.

[agentrouka-blog]

i have a huge suspicion that arya is going to get crowned by lady stoneheart with robbs crown before arya puts her out of her misery  

I don't see either happening, actually.

I don't think that Arya will kill her mother. Absolutely not. That's not what GRRM is preparing her for, he's not looking to destroy her spirit in this way.

And Cat has no reason to suspect that Sansa is dead, so I don't think she would do that to poor Arya. Why would she repeat Robb's dismissal of her eldest daughter especially when Sansa is known to no longer be in the hands of the Lannisters? When she would understand how miserable this role would make Arya? Does Northern kingship mean so much to Catelyn that she would open up a new succession conflict just to see anyone crowned? I don't believe it.

She's holding that crown during Brienne's farcical trial because she just got it back out of Frey hands after the vigilante massacre at Fairmarket. I don't think this crown is something Catelyn / LSH generally views with positive feelings. Wearing it made her son miserable. His focus on vengeance for Ned's death and his power to pursue it through the crown he was elevated to ended up killing him.

Catelyn had consistently tried to steer him away from unnecessary fighting, toward looking for peace, preserving life, even at the expense of giving up his crown. It was Robb who rejected that path over and over. This was tragically turned on its head when he was murdered and Catelyn became Lady Stoneheart, intent on vengeance.

I don't think that GRRM would consider it a satisfying conclusion to Catelyn's transformation for her to not break out of that vicious path again once she is actually reunited with the daughter she had been looking for, her wild and beloved child. To crown Arya with that bronze band and its iron swords... that murderous weight on her son's head.. would she want that? Suffocate her child next under the weight of that responsibilty, when the North remains under Bolton control for now, and her daughter is eleven?

The point of them reuniting isn't the transfer of the crown. That's not why Nymeria pulled Catelyn from the water.

"You are King in the North, the choice is yours. I only ask that you think on what I've said. The singers make much of kings who die valiantly in battle, but your life is worth more than a song. To me at least, who gave it to you." She lowered her head. "Do I have your leave to go?" (ASOS, Catelyn IV)

It's about Catelyn and Arya's relationship. About peace and closure and thematic consistency. Not about that unsightly crown that looks like a cousin to the Iron Throne.

[horizon-verizon]

i saw your post about tb&tg feud with dany and stuff, people dont have to be miserable over how big dany was, she is big Aegon and Rhaenyra is not Dany but the dance story have nothing to do with dany herself she is already big and have her own plot, jurney, and arc

Just like Dany based on King Henry VII Aegon and Rhaenyra based on his Ancesstors Stephan and Matilda, no Rhaenyra's death have nothing to do with the death of the dragons, dragon still exist even after she died such as Rhaena's dragon or whatever people theory about amethyst empress was the remaining Targ just doesnt know how to hatch them, the civil war it self was already been mention in the main book and it was nothing to do with dany she mention Aegon the third not Rhaenyra or Aegon the second

Dany fans should distance themself with hotd if you people consider Ryan show as Canon then Mad Queen Dany also canon since they are in the same universe.

I think people shouldnt watch too much Preston Jacob videos, George is not Baran Bo Odar he multiple times saying he was Gardener he could probably change his mind not every thing is theory just because you people solve R+L=J theory (one of the lamest theory in fantasy story)

People are not wrong if they like F&B characters than the main book one is just the characters they are not real, they are all a bunch characters made up by George rr Martin go outside touch some grass and delete your c ai.

Anon is talking about this post.

no Rhaenyra's death have nothing to do with the death of the dragons, dragon still exist even after she died such as Rhaena's dragon or whatever people theory about amethyst empress was the remaining Targ just doesnt know how to hatch them

Dragon eggs =/= dragons, anon...Dany is (directly, the text SAYS this) to "re-awaken" and "bring back" dragons from their stone eggs through magic...which implies that yes, the dragons were GONE. And after Rhaenyra's death and Rhaena/Morning or Nettles/Sheepsteler, there was NEVER another dragon or dragonrider in sight or sound...ever.

Dany fans should distance themself with hotd if you people consider Ryan show as Canon then Mad Queen Dany also canon since they are in the same universe.

You're going to have to point out to me when I ever said HotD was canon? I certainly have never said anything of the sort. nothing in the show is "canon". Either show. GRRM has said they are different things AND that the books are the "only" "canon":

What gave you the impression that Dany stans ever thought HotD or GoT were "canon" or that Dany-going-mad was a valid plotline?! not too long ago, there was a whole crashout group chat for dany stans who expressed they hated how HotD included Daenerys at all, not bc they thought the Dance is disconnected to Dany thematically or whatever, but because hotD is trying to use her popularity to validate their trash writing when the writers most likely even believe that Dany was "always" going to go mad.

I think people shouldnt watch too much Preston Jacob videos, George is not Baran Bo Odar he multiple times saying he was Gardener he could probably change his mind not every thing is theory just because you people solve R+L=J theory (one of the lamest theory in fantasy story)

Now, I'm (not) sorry to say this to you, but it's a given that Jon Snow is the bastard child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. Here are some posts as to why/how, esp for how/why Rhaelya was written as a love story and why Ned was so adamant in bringing him into his house despite Catelyn's ire:

ozymalek/iwouldservehim: "On Rhaegar"

queen-morgana91: "Do you think that Lyanna and Rhaegar were seriously in love?"

hamliet: "Is sansa connected to the winter rose?"

la-pheacienne, an anon: arthurian legends

We know Ned brought back Jon from "part unknown" and never revealed who his mother was in Cat's perspective, that he approached the Tower of Joy, that Lyanna died there. It's not a theory, the text (even outside of the main) PLUS GRRM himself gives us so much material to know this if you pay attention. Not everything needs to be spelled out to you, just like it doesn't need to be spelled out to you that Rhaena the BB's dragon, Dreamfyre (you might know Dreamfyre as Helaena's dragon) laid the 3 eggs Dany now has....see how the Targs are connected to and are important for Daenerys' characterization?

GRRM can be a Gardner all he needs, but that doesn't mean he's going to tear down every single set up he's built for himself or even change characterizations that have remained consistent for going on 20 years or so. He'd literally have to start over, the way you think "gardening" means. He's not going to make changes or tweaks so big and story-defining as to destroy the characterizations he's already set up, once more. Just because you don't R=L=J, doesn't mean it isn't true. Not everything revolves around your desires or wants.

I also never have ever watched a single Preston Jacobs video. Pretty much the only videos on ASoIaF analysis video have been GameofThronesHistorian, HallowedHarpy, PhoenixAshes, and lots of memes. Joke videos on tiktok. Phoenix Ashes both on TikTok and Youtube. You have assumed too much.

People are not wrong if they like F&B characters than the main book one is just the characters they are not real, they are all a bunch characters made up by George rr Martin go outside touch some grass and delete your c ai.

Funny, it looks like you are the one who takes a "bunch of characters" too seriously since you seem to go so hard for Dany and try to castigate so passionately against another character(s) having anything to do with her. Like the very idea offends you, and enough to create a multi-paragraph ask expressing such. You don't seem very self-reflective or self aware. Once again, you bring no analysis to the fore, and assume that I and others are expressing these thoughts just bc we want to pretend there's connections between the main series and its accompanying books...as if those accompanying books to any main series have nothing to do with their main book series in any franchise. That's funny.

If they are all "a bunch of character made up by GRRM" then perhaps you yourself need to touch grass for trying to say people engaging in analysis and using critical thinking skills to try to figure out how and what towards GRRM writes is....harmful to understanding the story?! What a self contradiction! You seem to not believe or understand what the literary studies is all about.

It's not a disparagement or reduction of Dany nor her arc to show how she and Rhaenyra both relate to the amethyst/bloodstone/Long night prophecy. I don't know why you think so. You haven't, also, shown evidence to why you think that Rhaenyra and Aegon II have nothing at all to do with or are not "re-representing" and thus referencing the Amethyst Empress/Bloodstone emperor. You're basically saying, "bc I said so". The Amethyst Empress and her younger brother (Aegon was Rhaenyra's); Aegon, like the emperor, usurped his sister out of greed....just as Aegon did; because he and his side did this, it ushered in a war that would have never occurred if they hadn't willfully usurped her because we know that the dragons need woman and girls both present and autonomous or practicing power similar to their male counterparts...have you seen how before the Dance and during Rhaenyra's happier years on Dragonstone, more dragon eggs hatched heathily and numerously? Especially Syrax laying clutches upon clutches of eggs? Even with sheepstealer and Morning, Baela's daughter, Laena,'s egg hatched but took a huge chunk out of her arm, coming out with no wings and defomed, pale.....nothing liek that has ever been recorded! Obviously the Dance had a huge negative effect on the dragons' survival beyond the ones that died in battles or not long after!

Now, after Rhaenyra's denied her chance to rule AND killed in such a violent, misogynist way--like how the Amethyst Empress' demise and the usurpation, the Long night/a cataclysmic event that unbalanced the worlds' magic...dragons need to exist to maintain that familiar balance or at least not to die like what happened to them--wheh now the Targs never have a female ruler (only Aelora and Daena, and they never became active, autonomus queens) or a female member who lived happily, the Targs struggle to do anything with any egg? Every single one who tried had to sorta "fall back" on other sources and types of sorcery, and even then still struggles. Almost all who tried and we know who failed were men.

................................................

All F&B characters exist to conceptualize Dany. They may have their own particular arcs, but those arcs are not completely independent stories, or this would be an anthology of different , separate stories with their own lore. Do you need characters to be the exact same or have the exact same arcs to have said or see any sort of "connection" between them? What a boring, intellectually bankrupt, and flat thing that would be.

The Blackfyre rebellions also have to do with Dany, bc we know Varys is trying to use FAegon/young Griff, a Blackfyre, along with Illyrio Mopatis to rule under their control. The same Mopatis who was in charge of caring for her and Viserys for years...obviously for a purpose that shaped her life.

So does how Aegon I and his sisters, obviously. We know she is very much a conqueror like Aegon, good at strategy like both women, etc.

So does Alysanne and Jaehaerys' policies. So does summerhall.

Why does Rhaenyra have to be the one isolated and totally detached from Dany in terms of asoiaf analysis, themes, and connections being made?

Dany may not be like her ancestors in terms of searching for power for the family or oneself alone; she is also not detached or totally unlike them, bc most Targs have the same "fire", passion, capacity for love that she has. A few Targs even have an altruism that can be compared to hers, even though their own methods or conceptions of how to take care of their people (which included peasants) went to a place of destruction and misinterpretations of they needed to do to reawaken the dragons or a certain narrow-mindedeness from frustrations (Aegon V and Rhaegar, maybe Aegon III and even Alysanne, whith her kids).

Maybe you are young or you love HotD too much. I suggest re-reading the books.

[gendrie]

as far as i know grrm never gave any history on alayne i twow? but i have to imagine that it is a 5 year gap chapter. so i wanted to do the same thing i did with arya xiii in storm + mercy and consider sansa vii in asos being directly followed by her twow chapter as grrm probably intended....

her relationship with petyr/littlefinger is striking. without her affc chapters we go directly from her being very wary of him to having almost fully embraced him as her ally if not as her father. she was supposed to spend 5 long years playing daddy/daughter with the guy. i think when alayne i opens they are close.

we do not see the lysa/marillon fallout in real time but there is but one reference to it.

whats most interesting to think about is how with this chapter alone their plan (kill sweetrobin, marry harry, claim the vale/wf) wouldnt be easily deduced at all. theres a reference to "the plan" and sweetrobin points out that harry is his heir, but thats all. originally, this wouldve been much more subtle than what we currently have going into twow. its like grrm kinda just threw all the cards down on the table for this plotline.

same goes for the sweetsleep. its in affc that petyr and sansa start pressuring the maester to give sweetrobin this drug. we're also given a lot more detail about the side effects (death) that otherwise would not have been as obvious in grrms original vision

idt grrm has ever mentioned the 5 year gap benefiting or hindering sansa's development. i feel like it hasnt made that big of a difference for her, but it seems to me that her affc chapters removed A LOT of intrigue.

[greenhikingboots]

A few words on House Kettleblack and "News from W.H."

The new outline buzz has me revisiting TWOW speculation. Mostly I want to think and write about the Mad Mouse and the Vale plot. But while I was attempting that, I caught myself writing a long-winded tangent about House Kettleblack. Let me post it here and get it out of the way.

Regarding “News from W.H.” some Jonsa fam friends discussed Oswell Kettleblack here. A reminder if you need it, Oswell, along with Lothor Brune has known Sansa’s true identity all along. They were on the ship, the Merling King, when Sansa and Littlefinger fled King’s Landing after Joffrey’s death. Also worth noting, as I’ll circle back to it in a bit, is that Kettleblack’s sons have infiltrated Cersei’s sellswords thanks to Bronn and Tyrion’s scheming, but none of them are aware of the Kettleblacks’ connections to Littlefinger.

Sherlockiness gave us this canon line from TWOW: “When she had left Petyr Baelish that morning he had been breaking his fast with old Oswell who had arrived last night from Gulltown on a lathered horse.”

And Agentrouka gave us this: I suppose now we know what had Oswell travel with haste. White Harbor news — and Littlefinger had it first, so whatever it is, it won't catch him off-guard. Maybe he'll try to twist the ‘Arya’ wedding news in his favor, that would fit with the timeline better than news of Jon or Rickon, and it would match the choice to insert a childhood memory of Jeyne and Arya into the same chapter.

I’m here to offer more options to consider. Here goes.

Let’s take a look at another canon line. Littlefinger to Sansa in AFFC, meaning prior to the line Sherlockiness brought up from TWOW: “I thought it best that we have a few more swords about us [Shadrich, Byron, and Morgarth]. The times grow ever more interesting, my sweet, and when the times are interesting you can never have too many swords. The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell.”

Wait. Hang on a second. Did you catch that? It’s not like Sansa’s last AFFC chapter and her TWOW chapter take place a day apart. Time had to pass to dream up and plan for the tournament, for the participants to begin to arrive, for Littlefinger to send for lemons from Dorne for that massive cake, etc. etc.

So what are we to make of this? Maybe Oswell had not yet made it to the Gates of the Moon but somehow got word to Littlefinger that he was on his way… with tales to tell. Or — and I think this option makes better sense — Oswell’s been traveling back and forth between Gulltown and the Gates of the Moon for a few months, bringing news to Littlefinger bit by bit.

Which doesn’t help me solve any puzzles, really. But it’s important to me, Jonsa fam, that we aren’t operating on false assumptions. Along that same vein, maybe we should double check if we really think the news Oswell is bringing Littlefinger and the news GRRM mentions in his outline as coming from White Harbor — the likely catalyst for Sansa resolving to be herself — are one in the same.

So what’s the news from Gulltown?

What about progress on an attempt to get a marriage annulled? As we know, annulments are a thing in Westeros. Though neither the bride nor groom needs to be present, one of them must request the annulment. I think it’s possible Littlfinger may have forged something to make it look like Sansa requested it. Maybe Oswell is involved in those logistics.

(I’ve also read speculation that Littlefinger has ties to Tysha and Tysha and Tyrion’s marriage was never actually annulled — Tywin lied about it. Therefore, even without the consummation issue, Sansa and Tyrion’s marriage was never legitimate. The theory goes that Tysha will ask for an annulment from Tyrion and the process of her coming forward will consequently annul Sansa and Tyrion’s marriage. It’s so many steps removed it seems implausible. I get that. But Littlefinger does talk about Tysha and Tyrion in a Sansa chapter and it kinda makes you go, “Hmmmm why include this here?” I guess what I’m saying is that I’m far from in love with this theory, but if it happens — okay, cool, whatever. I’m mentioning it now mostly in case someone wants to dig into it themselves.)

Or! I think this next part is more likely, though it and annulment stuff could be intertwined as they both require news from King’s Landing. Remember that earlier tidbit about Oswell’s sons infiltrating Cersei’s sellswords? Well, how Cersei’s faring as queen regent — that seems like something that would need multiple updates over the course of a few months, right? And the part from TWOW chapter, the part about the leathered horse — seems plausible, maybe even likely that Oswell hurried from Gulltown to the Gates of the Moon this time because his sons have been imprisoned with Cersei. (If you’re like me and started skipping a lot of POVs in the later books, catch up on the details here: House Kettleblack link)

(Bonus: In the recently revealed outline, one of the Cersei notes says ‘Osmund’ betrays her. And I find the quotes around his name interesting especially because his AWOIAF pages says he’s twice mistakenly called Oswald. Not sure if that’s hinting at something bigger to come or just a nod to the Kettleblacks being shady. Also according to AWOIAF, the brothers are all illiterate. I want to dig into canon and see if there are hints of that being a ruse as it would otherwise seem likely they’re sending information to their father who is sharing it with Littlefinger).

So all that to say, I think we need to consider the option Oswell’s news and the news from Winterfell are separate ideas.

That’s it for the House Kettleblack tangent. Posts still to come about the Mad Mouse and maybe about what the news from White Harbor could be.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Oh, indeed. There is an incredibly popular quote used in probably hundreds of jonsa graphics and a few metas and no doubt a lot of videos by now, "Stone and snow, that was all that was left of Winterfell. Just like her and Jon." I have no idea where it originally came from, some 2011/2-era fanfic or graphic edit, but it certainly does not come from GRRM. Heck, it's not even grammatically correct and not even really GRRM's style (not that that's ever stopped anyone).

And yet, a few years ago, a jonerys friend asked me to proofread their meta disputing various jonsa claims… and within their essay, they had spent 6-8 paragraphs disputing this quote. 🤦‍♀️ They were extremely surprised to hear it was not actual ASOIAF text that they needed to consider.

And there's so much out there, just like this. Another pervasive one, non-ship related, is “a harp in the tomb, a child in the womb, a dragon in a stone egg”, a nice bit of poetry sourced only from a theory essay postulating Rhaegar's harp is in Lyanna's tomb. People have come to me going, "but that theory must be true, I mean, the poem!" and I had to gently explain he drew the receipts himself.

(lol, well, I say not ship-related even though it's R+L=J, but I tend to think of those obsessed with it (particularly that essayist) more as theory-obsessives rather than ship-obsessives. Not to slight shippers, I'm one myself, but it's a different kind of attitude for text analysis and projection, focusing less on proof of love specifically.)

But yeah, made up or misread jonsa theories are hilariously pervasive -- "the girl in grey" for one (it's Alys Karstark, who came to the Wall as a girl in grey riding a dying horse escaping a forced marriage. GRRM gave the answer in the book the prophecy appeared ffs, the whole story point of the prophecy is that Jon sent Mance and the spearwives to Winterfell to aid "Arya" and thus they ended up in Theon and Jeyne's storyline, but no, Sansa's going to do it all over again just because!) And my Ashford tourney crack theory they stole and misinterpreted (it was about Aegon, and about the fact nobody won the tourney because of Dunk (Sandor, lol, though I'll accept Brienne too), and I've seen people seriously considering it important even though I admit it's almost certainly coincidence and doesn't mean anything! Jonsas aren't the only ones of course, believe me I've seen some tremendous crack in my own ship, but I'm thinking specifically of cases like that where the actual text of the story (Alys Karstark, Mance, Jeyne, Theon; or the historical events of the tourney where Dunk and Egg met and Baelor Breakspear died) doesn't even seem to exist if you're only looking at edits and videos and other fanworks. It gives a wildly bizarre reading of the text if you've never actually read it.

And yes, twitter is full of these cases where the text has become irrelevant, where people make inferences and projections on top of distanced inferences and projections. Not to exclude worg and reddit, where people just make theories-on-top-of-theories, building up enormous cloud castles with no real foundation. Like the Southron Ambitions Conspiracy (textually, the rantings of a lonely paranoid woman), which developed (rationally) into the fan theory that "the STAB bloc formed to remove the Targaryens", but people use that as a basis for so much more, defaulting it as true, even though it is still only an unproven theory! And because it's maester-related and Targaryen-related, it's been mixed with the maester anti-magic conspiracy (very likely true, but also very shadily sourced within the text), into this enormous Protocols of the Elders of Hightower bizarre conspiracy theory that the Hightowers and Citadel want to control all of Westeros and killed all the Targaryens and dragons even the ones who were killed by each other and you can't trust the maester-written Fire & Blood in any way! except it's an inviolate text for the parts you want to be true and nothing is real but everything is, how dare you say otherwise.

Anyway, thank you so much re the term "sourcecreep" and that Jack Sparrow not-a-quote. Fascinating stuff.

@ilynpilled

ppl being more interested in Fandom than the actual source text is so real like they do have their own nonexistent text thats just a recycled concoction of the same bland fandom incorrect quotes tropes over and over again which deviates so much from the canon and they prefer to the actual thing lol

my favorite example of sourcecreep is the fact that if you go on reddit, pinterest, or facebook, or google image search 7 years ago, or flickr and photobucket if you're properly fandom old, you will find image edits of disney's jack sparrow with the quote overlay "the problem is not the problem. the problem is your attitude about the problem."

if you've seen enough of these edits (there are many thousands of them), you might even read those two sentences in his trademark cadence.

the problem here, though, is not anyone's attitude about the problem. it's that this quote has never appeared in any of the five films in which jack sparrow appears. nor in any of the video games he stars or guest-stars on. nor in any of the tie-in young jack sparrow novels or the film novelizations. it is not from a deleted scene or an early draft of any script. it's not from any of the disney park parades or firework shows in which jack is included as a face character with recorded speaking lines. it's not from the original ride or the re-dress of the ride post-dead man's chest.

this is a quote from the YA series the sisterhood of the traveling pants. one of the characters' coaches says it to them in one of the books because they are children in high school. there is no reason for it to be attributed to this character or this franchise besides one patient zero at some point or another 20 years ago making an image with a text overlay on picnik photo editor and uploading it to their livejournal or whatever.

anyway this is how asoiaf fans on twitter absorb information about their favs from the series and then post about it. i believe there are many such cases across fandom at large.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

The meaning of Arya’s name varies from “air, song or melody” to “honorable, noble, of a good family” to “treasure, gold, of good value” to “lion/lioness”.  However some of these things seem very Lannister-esque, which pretty much tells me that in the original outline Arya’s endgame was going to be with Tyrion, not Jon.  I just had to get this out into the world even though someone probably has said the exact same thing before. :P

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Sometimes I feel like so many book fans are unable to see Dany atrocities in Slavers Bay. It's because they think Dany is removing slavery and the characters are either causing problems to Dany or some are plain cruel. Do you think the writing has sone flaws regarding Essos chapter?

I think you’re right regarding the Slaver’s Bay atrocities, although a few people have pointed out this is likely intentional. Making the Slavers so one-dimensionally evil—crucifying 163 slave children as a challenge to Dæny, brainwashing slave boys into super soldiers, condemning innocent people to getting mauled by animals because they want to see death—is so Dæny’s actions against them seem not as bad by comparison, or even “karmic justice”. I mean, how many times have you seen the defense of the crucifixion of 163 Meereenese Masters as “they were slavers and probably involved in killing them anyway” when Dæny had them killed without an investigation? Even though the motivation of the slavers is similar to that of Tywin Lannister—pride in their heritage and the system they’ve profited off of, to the point of considering those outside the clan inferior which justifies all sorts of atrocities against them—you never get an Essosi villain with Tywin’s sort of backstory or sense of grandeur (let alone that of his children, but at least they’re POVs).

I’m hardly alone thinking the Essosi characters are poorly developed. It’s pretty telling that the show—otherwise criticized for flattening characters, for its racist imagery, for softening the blow of dark!Dæny—actually did better than the books with them in a few places. They gave Missandei and Grey Worm a romantic plot that didn’t involve Dæny (and considering Missandei was supposed to survive the finale, maybe signified them growing apart from her). They made it obvious that Dæny crucifying the 163 Great Masters without a trial was reckless, because she killed Hizdahr’s father and he’d spoken against killing the children. Hizdahr himself got more sympathetic characterization, going from an opportunistic lobbyist who wanted to open up the fighting pits to essentially being the Sansa to her Joffrey and pointing out her hypocrisy when she vows to destroy Meereen if they keep rebelling (“So your reasons are true and theirs are false?”) Then there’s a character Mossador, a former slave who she kills for killing a Son of the Harpy without trial, thus causing a riot, and he’s not in the books.

GRRM, as the first linked post points out, has a talent for creating well fleshed out minor characters in little narrative space (citing Small Paul, though there are many other examples), which helps make Westeros feel more dynamic. By contrast, Dæny’s main cast in Essos is mostly one dimensional. It’s not really fair to compare Pyp, Grenn, and Dolorous Edd (not counting Sam because he’s a POV) to Irri, Jhiqui, Rakharo, and Jhogo, but both of groups have been with POV Jon or Dæny for most of their journey, and see how easy it is to think of the first group’s character traits (Pyp’s the funny mummer, Grenn is a gentle giant, Dolorous Edd is Eeyore giving a Shakespeare monologue) whereas the second group has little characterization (GRRM differentiates them by body type, with Irri as slender, Jhiqui as busty, Jhogo is young, Rakharo has a mustache) This got so bad in ADWD that GRRM had to invent a character Rommo as part of Dæny’s khalasar because her bloodriders weren’t available to represent the Dothraki in council. We have an oily suck up to the ruling power in Reznak and Pycelle, but we understand Pycelle’s motivations due to a monologue with Jaime (he admires authoritarian rulers since surviving a plague that killed 3/4 of the Citadel), whereas Reznak doesn’t get that revealing backstory moment. Basically GRRM shows he’s plenty capable of creating interesting side characters and antagonists, he just rarely does so during the Essosi chapters.

(Incidentally, this is part of the reason why I hate the theory that Melisandre is of magical Westerosi origin. She’s 1 of 2 indigenous Essosi and ex-slave POVs and a well rounded character with development over 3 books who drives part of the plot. Making her Westerosi magic really takes away from her origin story that led her to devote her life to Rhllor.)

[jackoshadows]

Why do you think there’s such a strong fixation on Jonsa? I watched the whole series and didn’t see it. I just finished A Game of Thrones and didn’t see it. I’m a big supporter of Jonerys (although I don’t think Kit and Emilia had very good on-screen chemistry but that was partially due to a bad script) but I’m very curious about the mindset going on with people who enjoy other Jon pairings. I can at least see where people are coming from with Jonrya even if I’ll never be able to see them as anything but siblings. They’re very close and think of each other often but at least in book one, Jon and Sansa’s relationship is non-existent. I guess Jon and Dany’s is even more non-existent, but the show at least planted a seed of what could be, and the same cannot be said of Jonsa

I think you are the nonnie who send me the Dany ask and I always hesitate to answer these (rather sensible and intelligent) asks because you have not finished reading the books and I hate to spoil the story for you 😂!

Have you read Pride and Prejudice? The equivalent of the Jonsa ship would be like shipping Darcy and Jane because one likes Jane Bennet and then argue that Darcy actually falls for sweet, gentle Jane and not Elizabeth and that Darcy/Jane is canonical. And if we disagree with this it’s because we are sexist Jane haters because Jane’s a girly girl. Absurd right? That’s pretty much the absurdity of Jonsa for book readers.

So why is Jonsa so popular? Briefly, Jonsa is the result of Sansa stans not liking the canon suitors the author has given the character in the books for various reasons. They want Arya's canonical relationship with Jon possibly turning into a romance for their favorite character Sansa or they want Jon and Sansa falling in love instead of any future romance between Jon and Dany. Which is why 80% of their blogs is devoted to tearing down Dany and Arya and involves an unrecognizable mess of a character they call Jon Snow.

Sansa is also the typical beautiful girl who is into romance and songs and fashion and knights, feasts and tourneys - that’s why she gets shipped with everyone. I think she’s the most shipped character in this fandom. And that’s always been a thing since this series started in the nineties. SanSan or Sansa/Sandor Clegane (The Hound) was one of the most popular ships of the series and GRRM has even commented on it.

[As an aside the funny thing is that GRRM is trying to subvert tropes and also write romance for the non conventional girls like Brienne and Dany and Arya (Lyanna is the equivalent of Helen of Troy and Arya is a mini Lyanna) and still this fandom disparages girls like Arya as being ‘male-coded’, ugly and undesirable.]

With the show, they totally ignored SanSan (Which makes sense considering Rory McCann was like 40 or something on the show and Turner is so young - the show cannot go where the books do in terms of these relationships) and instead gave Sansa the story of another tertiary character in the North. Combining characters meant that she got dumped into Jon Snow’s plot and now all of a sudden we have these two good looking actors Sophie Turner and Kit Harington sharing scenes and Jonsa is born (Despite their characters fighting and arguing in 90% of their scenes, and Sansa lying and betraying Jon).

Benioff and Weiss’ Sansa fanfiction meant that Sansa now gets all of Arya’s story beats and narrative themes on the show. And instead of treating it like a crack ship/AU fanfiction, they try to shove this ship into the books and attack anyone who tries to point out how absurd this ship is. And despite GRRM insisting that his story is different and going in different directions, they think that the garbage writing of the show is going to happen in the books

I would also like to point out that, from my experience in fandom, most Jon Snow fans don’t ship Jonsa. And I am talking about fans who genuinely like book Jon Snow. Not the one’s who claim to be a Jon fan and their blog is 90% about Sansa.These two characters have nothing to do with each other in the books!

Jonsa is a Sansa ship for and by Sansa stans. Jon is simply a prop there for Sansa to become QITN, get a direwolf Ghost, get her disney princess happy ending with ten babies. Their version of Jon Snow has nothing in common with the book character.

To refer back to my original P&P comparison, to make Darcy fall in love with Jane one would have to change Darcy’s entire personality.  If Darcy falls for Jane’s beauty and gentle nature instead of Elizabeth’s wit and intelligence, then that’s no longer Pride and Prejudice is it? That’s an AU version of Pride and Prejudice. Or fanfiction based on Pride and Prejudice.

A Darcy who falls in love with Jane Bennet is not the Darcy in the story Austen is writing. In the same way a Jon Snow who falls in love with Sansa Stark is not the Jon Snow in the story George R R Martin  is telling.  

For Jonsa shippers their Jon Snow will be repulsed by Arya Stark and does not care for her, only helps out his friends because they are stand ins for Sansa, is shallow and self-loathing because he thinks he’s not good enough for beautiful Sansa who ignored him because he’s a bastard and craves for the approval of the woman who abused him, Catelyn Stark.

In fact, the Jonsa fandom came up with one of the worst, most nonsensical iterations of Jon Snow I have ever seen in all my years in this fandom. Let me introduce you to the horror that is Political!Jon. You can google it.

Political!Jon is Littlefinger 2.0, a sociopath who will pretend to love Daenerys to get her dragons, deceive her and then kill her, all his true love Sansa Stark can become QITN. And oh, because he does not want his true love to take care of any undesirable bastards, political!Jon will also give Dany some moon tea to abort her baby - that’s abortion!Jon. And Jonsa shippers think that Jon Snow seducing a rape victim, stealing her children (the dragons), aborting her baby and then killing her for Sansa is all so romantic!!

And if not Jon Snow, then it will be Arya who will kill Dany. That’s the whole point of the sword Jon gave Arya - it’s not about their bond and their love and being symbolic of home and identity for Arya. No, Needle is so that Arya can kill Dany and Jon and Sansa can get together! Arya will then turn into a Jonsa cheerleader and fuck off into nowhere on a ship.

I have always compared the Jonsa shippers to the flat earthers of this fandom. Some of the most ridiculous and absurd theories have come out of that side of the fandom and debating with them is like debating with a wall. One can smush all the book text and quotes in their face and they will still be there talking about how Jon Snow loves Sansa because some snow fell on her face in one of the chapters....

[jackoshadows]

Because have you read Jon's chapters at all?

No they haven't.

Every day I read a post on the Jon tag and I am reminded that most of these Sansa fans think that the Jon chapters are boring and not worth reading and is only relevant once Sansa unites with him and just base his character off of metas written by bnfs and fellow Sansa stans.

He is just an useful prop onto whom they transfer their Rhaegar hate because he's connected to Rhaegar.

Jon's entire identity for most of these folks is that he's a STARK. And in their mind the Starks are the good guys while the Targaryens are evil. So the fact that Jon is connected to the Targaryens through Rhaegar means that they need him to repudiate Rhaegar and hence all this nonsense they make up.

I will never forget the bnf who had an entire essay up about how Jon will feel guilty for Rhaegar's actions and go on a redemption arc... Why in the world would Jon Snow need redemption for being Rhaegar's son FFS?!

ASoIaF gets praised for having all these complex characters and then you get to fandom and it's just the most reductive takes that turn characters into black or white one dimensional stereotypes.

As you point out, there is every reason for Jon Snow to be angry at having to grow up a bastard and send to the Wall by Ned when his family was killed by Ned's bestest friend Robert Baratheon and his allies. Robert would have murdered Jon and that's why he had to grow up ostracized and discriminated against. Can anyone take away the pain of his childhood? No. Ned was best friends - until the very end - with the man who killed Jon's biological father. I can even see Jon and Dany bonding over being the last Targaryens after the rebels tried to have their family exterminated.

And then there is Ned who sacrificed his honor to bring his sister's baby home and bring him up as his own. Who gave Jon Snow loving siblings in Arya, Robb and Bran. Who, despite opposition, brought Jon Snow up in Winterfell instead of sending him away to be brought up elsewhere as a bastard.

And then there is Lyanna Stark. A mother he dreamed of and wished for. Knowing she was a Stark, Ned's beloved sister, who is buried in the crypt. Who loved him dearly and entrusted him to Ned. He got his Stark look from his mother. The joy that his mother really loved him and didn't abandon him.

And the fact that his mother was betrothed to Robert, a man she disliked. That like Arya, Lyanna too was limited in her choices and her freedom.

There's all these factors involved, ensuring a maelstrom of emotions for Jon Snow and this is one of the reasons that I really hope we still get Jon's POV once he is resurrected. I want to read GRRM explore all this for Jon - just like the beautiful chapter where Jon considers Stannis' offer of Winterfell.

And then there are still these idiots going on and on about how Jon will hate Rhaegar and hate that Rhaegar is his biodad and will feel guilty for being Rhaegar's son and marry Sansa to purify himself and have pure Stark children etc. The nonsense has no limits.

I think people who say Jon will hate his biological parents for their actions and will only see Ned as his true parent are speaking from a place of naivety. Because have you read Jon's chapters at all?

Jon, who is ambitious and dreams of lordship and having sons and envies Robb for being the true born heir to Winterfell. You'd think he'd be happy his uncle sent him to the Wall to be a virtual eunuch and won't speak the truth about Jon's mother until after the fact?

Jon, who's favorite sister is Arya and favors women with a similar personality to her? Jon who thought Robert was unimpressive and thought long-haired pretty boy Jaime looked more kingly? Also, why would Jon think Rhaegar and Lyanna are selfish towards Elia and Robert when he broke his vows for Arya and also helped Alys, another Lyanna look-alike, escape forced marriage?

Jon, who thought he'd rather die with a sword in his hand (Rhaegar) than beheaded like a common brigand (Ned)? Also, how do you think Jon would feel knowing Ned hid his parentage from him and is friends with the man who killed his father, a man who would have killed him in jealousy over his mother? That Ned fought on the same side of the man who ordered the murder and rape of Jon's stepmother and half-siblings?

This is not me saying Ned was an abusive monster or that Rhaegar was perfect. But I think people are very black and white with the same old "Stark/Ned good" and "Rhaegar/Targaryen bad" schtick. I think it will be more complicated than that (Jon might be horrified he's related to Aerys and may think he'll go mad like him but could also feel resentment towards Rickard for betrothing Lyanna to Robert) and whole point of the parentage reveal is to accept and embrace both his fathers and both sides of family heritage.

[cellsshapedlikestars]

When and why did you start shipping Jonsa?

I literally do not know.

Time for a long dissertation of my watching experience: I was obsessed with the show but never participated in online fandom while it was airing. I did, however, sometimes google theories and read reddit posts with my bff while on break at work, and I listened to A LOT of podcasts about it (at the time, my job was very monotonous and podcasts helped me survive). The podcasts went over the show, but there were some that also had entire episodes dedicate to the books & theories.

I swear I must have heard the Jon/Sansa theory on one of these podcasts, because I don't remember coming up with it on my own? But I do remember posing the question to my friends at, I think, my s6 finale party: do you think it would make sense if they married, considering GRRM originally outlined Jon/Arya? Their reactions were of mostly of disgust because they all still thought they were siblings. I had read the books & a bunch of theories and was very sure they were cousins, so it never squicked me out like it probably should have (for those not aware, I can handle cousin marriage in period pieces, but that's it lol).

Anyway, I clearly was semi-shipping it while watching, but honestly I do not tend to ship too much in general, so I wasn't out here reading fic of it or seeking out any content. I just thought they both uplifted & made each other better, and that's what I tend to look for in ships.

Anyway, cut to 6 months after the GOT finale. I was taking new birth control and it was FUCKING UP my brain chemistry and I fell into a really bad depression and tried everything to get out of it. One day, I went "you know what I used to love? Fanfic. Let me try that." I genuinely cannot remember how I stumbled onto GOT fanfic. Probably because I still wasn't over the horrid finale, and even though I cannot read show-canon fics, I started reading through the Jonsa tag. Again, I cannot remember *actively* shipping them during the show, but I guess I felt the safest in the jonsa tag, and haven't left since.

Fanfic is where my active shipping of them really took off, so thank you to all the authors who wrote thousands of fics. You helped with my depression and gave me a new hobby, because I started writing less than a year later :)

[kellyvela]

"Her maids were dressing her when Tyrion appeared, Podrick Payne in tow. "You look lovely, Sansa."- Sansa(ASOS IV). "Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely."- Jon(ADWD XI). Jon and Tyrion thinking Val and Sansa lovely. "Ser Loras," she finally managed, "you . . . you look so lovely."- Sansa(ASOS I). Loras a brown hair knight is lovely.

Oh, Anon,

You have no idea how I love that Jon passage!

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely. —A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely."

A young beautiful girl, that everyone considers a princess, next to a direwolf???   

You can bet Jon was remembering another beautiful girl, princess like, next to a direwolf, looking as though they belong together...

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself.   —A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Oh, look! This is one of GRRM favorite miniatures:

Oh, and about Jon, Loras and their brown hair:

Jon and Loras are excellent horse riders (indispensable requirement to be a good jouster). Both Jon and Loras are sworn to celibate orders (Night’s Watch, Kingsguard). Jon’s father, Rhaegar Targaryen, wearing an armor adorned with rubies (red) gave Lyanna Stark a crown of winter roses (blue), while Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, wearing an armor adorned with sapphires (blue) gave Sansa Stark a (red) rose, unofficially crowning her as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

Margaery, who looks like Loras’s twin sister, is compared with Lyanna Stark. Jon Snow inherited the Stark look from his mother Lyanna. Hence we can say that Jon and Loras have similar looks. Jon and Loras also have a slender physique.

And lovely is a synonym of sweet, both meaning pleasant:

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised. "Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose." She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise. —A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

Ahhh, how I love my romantic babies ❤️

[agentrouka-blog]

Jon is my favourite character and favourite POV. I have loved him since the moment Bran 'loved him with all his heart'. But I never blamed Cat for her resentment of him. I hated her treatment of him, but not her. To this day I hate reading their one and only interaction. It pains me a lot. And frankly, I feel very angry towards Cat for what she said to him. Still, I understand her general distance and distrust of him (except that one incident) because Ned was at fault. I think if we judge Cat by modern standards, we should judge Ned similarly too. He cheated on her. We cannot just turn around and say that bastards were norm in those days (though raising them with your trueborn children and wife wasn't) and then expect Cat to behave like a modern day step mother. That being said, I love Jon so much for how he replied to Robb 'she was ... very kind'. He breaks my heart 😭😭 and I am very glad Cat never prevented her children from loving Jon like a brother and three of her five children (Robb, Bran and Arya) consider Jon their favourite sibling....

Hi anon!

I find it very significant that GRRM gave us one interaction each for Jon, with Catelyn and with Ned.

In the interaction with Catelyn, she is in the middle of a prolonged breakdown, sleep-deprived, grieving, overwhelmed with irrational guilt over Bran, and she takes it out on Jon in the worst way, and it's just gut-wrenching to witness. It confirms Jon's every negative expectation.

But the interaction with Ned is actually no less awful, when you think about it. Instead of Catelyn pelting him with cruel rejection, it's Jon prostrating himself in front of Ned.

And Ned just lets him.

“Lord Stark,” Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. “There are five pups,” he told Father. “Three male, two female.”

“What of it, Jon?”

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”

Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully. Robb rushed into the silence he left. (AGOT, Bran I)

That eternal silence.

Jon utilizes his own painful social disadvantage to help his trueborn siblings, no benefit for himself, he actively excludes himself from the family. He, essentially, humbles and humiliates himself in front of all of them. And Ned just quietly accepts that. No praise, no reassurance, nothing. He gives him nothing.

Whatever active rejection Catelyn practices of Jon in her limited way, Ned - his actual father - broadly accepts from Jon himself, passively. So routinely, that Jon instinctively knows that his words will have the desired effect.

Jon remembers Catelyn's cold stares whenever he bested Robb, but he offers us no contrasting memories of warmth from Ned. He admires him, he has absorbed lessons from him, but there is no intimacy, and the subject of his mother is as open and unaddressed a wound as it is for Catelyn. There is resentment there, though, rarely allowed to rear its head.

There is a reason why Jon's memories during the Pink Letter don't include Ned. Ned is, ultimately, for all that he is "Father", also only "Lord Stark".

Robb. Bran. Rickon. Sansa. Arya.

Those five. His siblings, for whose wolves he excluded himself. That's his pack.

[fedonciadale]

The show makes it quite clear that Jon loved Dany till the very end. Jon supports Dany over Sansa every single time in WF. As per the show, even after Dany razed KL to the ground, Jon loved her so much that Tyrion had to spend considerable time to convince Jon to kill Dany. That’s how much Jon loved Dany. And that killing her, destroys him. They loved each other till the very end. Jon/Dany is an actual, canon, romantic relationship on the show even if this relationship ends badly at the end.

In the books? There is literally nothing there. Nothing. There is more material to make a case for Jon and Satin getting together in the books than there is for Jon and Sansa. No, Jon is not subconsciously thinking of Sansa every time he thinks of Arya or talks about her. Replacing the word ‘Arya’ with ‘Sansa’ in all of Jon’s POV chapters does not make for foreshadowing, but moronic nonsense like this packaged as ‘Jonsa meta’ is why the ASoIaF fandom outside of tumblr laughs at the absurdity that is Jonsa.

In the last book, your girl is imagining kisses with the Hound and is holding onto his bloody cloak hidden in her chest in the Vale. SanSan is GRRM’s take on his favorite tale, Beauty and the Beast, which he wrote for the TV show. SanSan is so much of a take on the BATB that he wrote for television, that he has actual art on his house wall with SanSan mirroring the beauty and beast from the show. Considering that Sansa starts out the story as this naive, cruel, selfish girl who bullies her sister because she’s horse faced and ‘ugly’ and falls in love with beautiful Joffrey, her story is about being able to see beyond appearances and see/understand the actual person. At the start, she is scared of the Hound, his burned face and brutality and repulsed by Tyrion’s ugliness. By book 5 she is thinking fondly of Tyrion’s kindness and missing the Hound.  Why are you guys ignoring Sansa’s canon romance and instead trying to foist her off on a guy who does not care all that much about her? It’s almost as if these shippers don’t like the character and her canon relationships that GRRM has written for her and spend all their time making up another.

Hi lovely anon!

I try to picture you reading Jonsa metas.

In the unlikely case you actually gave jonsa metas a try (which I doubt because you very obviously only have some convoluted idea you probably picked up from anti blogs) you didn't understand any of it. But actually, try not to be to disappointed about the fact that your intellect is not quite up to the task, because ultimately it's not that important.

This is fiction and we have fun interpreting the ASOIAF books. And considering that it is highly unlikely we ever get TWOW not to even talk about ADOS this issue will never be resolved. Never.

So, you might entertain the idea of just letting people do what they like and ship what they want. I think Jonsa will happen in the books but even if it won't happen, that wouldn't stop me from shipping them.

[butterflies-dragons]

I don't think antis know about meaning of 'willowy'. When Jon said that Val is a warrior princess not a willowy creature brushing her hair, willowy is not an insult. It means tall, slender and graceful. And Sansa qualifies as willowy brushing her and like knights. It seems like Jon throwing shade on Sansa, but why? Considering he liked her brushing Lady hair and he himself wanted to be knight. Why he subtly remember Sansa while differentiating her with Val?

This is what I wrote about Val and the willowy creature line a while ago:

Val

Repeat after me: Val is not a warrior woman. Again: Val is not a warrior woman.  One more time: Val is not a warrior woman. If you don’t believe me, then read this:

However, in my own defense, I should note that Dalla was not a “warrior woman” per se. She was from a warrior culture, yes; one that gave women the right, but not the obligation, to be fighters. Ygritte was a warrior woman, as was (most conspicuously) the fearsome Harma Dogshead. Dalla and Val were not.

[Source]

But you may say, ¿What about the “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair” quote?

Well, as GRRM has stated many times, all his POVS are “Unreliable Narrators”.  Being from a “warrior culture” doesn’t make you automatically a “warrior woman”.  But here is Jon Snow “deciding” that Val was a “warrior princess”. Once again, the contrast, the dichotomy in one single person: ¿A warrior like Arya, a princess like Sansa?  Not that Arya has ever fought in a war, but you get my point.  And Sansa was created following the princess archetype.

I will show you one of my favorite Jon’s passages that will serve us to read “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair” line with a better and more revealing light:

I call this passage the “Jon -It’s nothing special- Snow”.  Or as we say in Spanish when we can’t get what we really want: “Al cabo que ni quería”, that can be translated as “I didn’t even want it anyway”.  Let’s see:

"Oh, I learn things everywhere I go.” The little man gestured up at the Wall with a gnarled black walking stick. “As I was saying … why is it that when one man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what’s on the other side?” He cocked his head and looked at Jon with his curious mismatched eyes. “You do want to know what’s on the other side, don’t you?”

“It’s nothing special,” Jon said. He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. “The rangers say it’s just woods and mountains and frozen lakes, with lots of snow and ice.”

—A Game of Thrones - Jon III

I mean… COME ON!  This is one of the most telling passages to know, to really know Jon’s true nature, and it’s very, very similar to the quote about “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair”:

They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

“Some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.”  Nah, it’s nothing special, I didn’t even want it anyway, not for me, no.

“It’s nothing special,” Jon said. He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. “The rangers say it’s just woods and mountains and frozen lakes, with lots of snow and ice.”

Do I have to say more???

Actually, yes, I have.

Jon Snow does really want a lady.  Jon Snow does really want to be a knight and rescue a maiden.  Jon Snow does really want a lady to love and be loved back by her.  Here some evidence:

Jon Snow wished that his mother were a highborn lady: “Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.”

Jon Snow wanted to be a hero like the Prince Aemon Dragonknight.  The same Prince Aemon that jousted in a tourney, won it, and crowned his sister and lady love “Queen of Love and Beauty”, something that is straight out from the courtly love book: “The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king’s mistress”.

Jon Snow tried to comfort Gilly with courtesy: “Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower.”  “That’s pretty.” He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her”.

Jon Snow put Ghost between Ygritte and him and remembers that knights put their swords between their ladies and themselves, something that is straight out from the courtly love book: “After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword”.

Jon Snow imagined romancing Ygritte as if she were a lady: “If I could show her Winterfell … give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us”.

Jon Snow wished for a domestic life in Winterfell, with his wife and children: I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. […] I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. […] Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily”.

Jon is a romantic that called his mare “sweet lady”.

Jon Snow closer friends in the Night’s Watch are Samwell Tarly and satin, they are literally male!Sansas.

Jon remembers fondly Sansa’s more feminine and ladylike traits: her romantic nature, her courtesies, her singing.

It’s also worth to mention that, despite Val’s beauty and physical attractiveness, Jon Snow, once again, appreciates her being maternal and singing to Gilly’s son, but was turned off by Val saying she would kill Princess Shireen:

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

“Monster?”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Once outside and well away from the queen’s men, Val gave vent to her wroth. “You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …”

“Greyscale.”

“The grey death is what we call it.”

“It is not always mortal in children.”

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

“I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Wait a minute! Val was “singing to herself” like Jon’s memory of Sansa “singing to herself” while brushing out Lady’s coat???

Where did Jon get this idea of “some willowy creature that only brushes her hair” from???  It could be from his half sister Sansa, a literal princess, now trapped in a tower, that always brushed her hair and even brushed out her direwolf’s fur???

“She had brushed out her long auburn hair until it shone” —Sansa

“Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone.” —Eddard

I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. —Catelyn

He thought […] Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. —Jon

And I also suspect that when Jon said this about Val:

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

He was remembering another pretty girl, princess like, next to a direwolf, looking as though they belong together.

A young beautiful girl, that everyone considers a princess, next to a direwolf???

Val is a beautiful young woman, Sansa is a beautiful young maiden.

Val has long blonde hair the color of dark honey which she wears in a braid. Val actually take care of her hair, enough to braid it, like Sansa that always brushes it. And if you google “dark honey” hair color you will find a variety of reddish brown (auburn) and reddish blonde hair colors.

Val has high sharp cheekbones, like Sansa.

Val’s eyes are pale grey or blue.  Again the grey/blue eyes pattern…

Val is slender with a full bosom, like Sansa.

So?

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. […] It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself.

Think about it!

* * *

For anyone interested, this is an excerpt from this post.