#comic fandom sexism

[theflashjaygarrick]

After thinking about the comic fandom's prioritisation of white male characters I feel like it's a self fulfilling cycle.

Mainstream discourse around superhero comics is all about how white male centric the genre is. The general consensus in fandom is that women don't like female characters because they are badly written and 2-dimensional in most nerd franchises.

And if you go in with that mindset you'll fairly assume that the characters who have the best runs and most interesting stories are the white men. And if you look at fandom spaces and people are waxing poetic about characters like Jason Todd and Tim Drake and acknowledging that characters like Babs, Steph and Cass exist this only will reinforce this perception. So the person getting into batfam go and ask for the best stories about the Batboys or read summaries about their arcs, only seeing these women as background characters in male characters stories.

But the thing is that isn't strictly. I mean I 100% agree that comics are sexist and racist but that doesn't mean that there aren't phenomenal and iconic runs starring and entering female characters (including queer women, disabled women, and WOC). Cassandra Cain and Kate Kane probably have two of the best character bibles out of the entire batfamily in the form of Batgirl 2000 and Batwoman: Elegy. Selina and Babs both have more well received story lines/runs than Jason Todd does.

Great stories with nuanced female characters exist but the assumption they don't means that people don't look for them. So instead they draw upon stories with the Batboys (minus Luke Fox, JPV and often Duke) in their fan art and fan fiction and discussions and accidentally obscure the stories of female characters in the batman mythos even more.

And the cycle continues.

[elenorasweet]

Fanfic about "The Batfamily" that leaves out Cass, who has been legally Bruce's daughter longer than Damian has existed: oops i forgot i guess i just don't know much about her

Drawing of "The Robins" that doesn't include Stephanie, who WAS a Robin: lol okay but you don't count as a Robin if you didn't spend long enough in the role obviously

Fanart featuring "90s Young Justice" that leaves out Cassie, Greta or Cissie: yeah but like they were never as close as the others plus they're boring to me

I fucking see you and I see what all of these things have in common.

[wintersangelic]

female character: "hey i'm a strong, well-written character."

male 'fans': "okay, you're weak and useless though because you experience human emotion."

female character: "no i mean it. i'm not only the most powerful species in my source, i'm also a goddess and the literal incarnation of life energy itself. i canonically devour entire planets like they were popcorn kernels. i can explode the universe just by thinking about it. i also have more emotional complexity in my left foot than you do in your entire body."

male 'fans': *proceeds to reduce female character to 'weak'/'useless' for having any emotions or flaws*

male 'fans': "why don't we have any strong, well-written female characters?"

[logansgaar]

Joseph Quinn wants his Johnny to meet Tom Holland's Peter

oh god, brace yourselves for the wave of ship fics that use insufferably inaccurate caricatures of their characters... I know they're close in the comics and I ship it, it's cute af, but I cannot deal with a VERY specific section of fandom doing it again. It'll be s/tr/k/r and it'll be ST s4 all over again. We do not need more men from crossovers or as minor characters overshadowing the leading women and their relationships, romantic or familial, with the leading man

nothing against the man but if another of his characters overshadows main female love interests of a male protag one more time-

("x character has two hands" only works if fans have mutual respect for both the love interests holding x character's hands, and 99% of the time the woman is the one who gets treated like crap)

[fantastic-nonsense]

it's been like three days and I'm still thinking about the person who tried to defend Batcest by saying that in the 50s and 60s Robin was considered an adult man, Batman and Robin were "the most widely acknowledged gay icons in that time by gay men," and that DC "retconned Robin back into being a child" to demonize gay men who identified with them

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

One of my biggest issues with Bat Family posts that exclude the girls™ is that lots of these male-male dynamics are FUCKING BORING.

At least all the canon female-female dynamics have all this great spice, whatever the combo. (Babs-Helena, Steph-Helena, Babs-Cass, Steph-Cass, Kate-Renee, Babs-Steph, Helena-Renee, Babs-Renee, Kate-Helena…)

Damian and Jason don’t have anything interesting to say to each other, I’m sorry. BORING. Also not congruent with preboot and only ever revolves around like 3 common fandom tropes.

Let a woman exist pls, I beg. Your sexism bores me.

[salarta]

Comic Book Fandom and "Got Mine Fuck You"

There's a recurring situation I see way too often with X-Men comic book fandom. As I write this, I know what I'm saying doesn't apply to everyone, or to every fandom, or to every platform. It applies to what I've seen. And what I've seen is abysmal.

Back when the 2020 run of X-Factor happened, I saw a LOT of apologism for the way Polaris/Lorna Dane was treated on that book. Paired with trying to spin her being on the book as good for her.

"Oh hey yeah, the X of Swords issue didn't acknowledge Lorna surviving the Genoshan genocide because... uhh... it was all implied! They didn't just didn't say it explicitly."

Then when the Genoshan genocide took center stage in another comic's story arc a couple years later, with Kitty Pryde as the focus, Lorna acting like she has no history with it and just complaining about a lack of coffee gets painted as "Oh but there's only so much panel space! And they already told Lorna's story with Genosha anyway, this time they're focused on Kitty's story with it!"

Let's also not forget that during the X-Men vote, we had so, so many X-Factor fans arguing for her to lose the vote, and not get to be a mainstay on the flagship book, because "X-Factor is her book and she's getting good use there anyway." As if it would've been impossible for her to be on two books at once. Some of those fans were at least more honest about it, where they admitted the real reason they wanted her to lose is cause they thought the book would die without Lorna to exploit for other characters like Rachel.

And now, we have the current X-Factor. Where fans of Havok, Pyro, the name X-Factor, nostalgia for the 90s, etc have all insisted that forcing Lorna back into "Havok's girlfriend who acts stupid so he can be a big strong man about it" is fine actually. Perfectly cool. The sexism is satire so it's fine, everything's fine, shitty treatment of her is fine. Anything to promote Havok, or Pyro, or X-Factor, or whatever else.

Only for those same people to start crying the instant Havok and Pyro look stupid too. Because you see, they can excuse the sexism and making a woman look stupid and completely destroying her character and development to make her fit a sexist mold for their cis straight Aryan male self-insert.

But they draw the line at their woobie self-inserts looking just as dumb. Stupid and character assassination is for the womenfolk you see, not for men.

What I'm getting at is, I keep running into a brick wall called "Got Mine Fuck You" that's pervasive with too many comic book fans. And while I'm emphasizing this behavior on Lorna, it's not just her. They've also done shit like attack and badmouth another writer for daring to suggest their great golden god Writer Of The Moment could have plagiarized their work. Harassing her, changing her Wikipedia page. Because they care more about salvaging the reputation of their favorite things than about what's right.

It annoys the fuck out of me. Because in spite of all the fanfare about comics being progressive (when it's financially convenient), this is one of the big gaping dark sides.

I try not to be that guy. I can't say I don't fail, but I try to be better than these chucklefucks.

When season 1 of Gifted killed Dreamer off, I had no problem calling out how asinine and insulting their handling of her death was. I COULD have been That Asshole that tries to act like it was a genius decision, all because Polaris was being treated amazingly in season 1 and Dreamer's death could've been leveraged for Pain Points for Lorna. I didn't do that.

Secret Wars House of M also gave Quicksilver and to a lesser extent Magneto a raw deal in characterization. Even as AU characters, it hit very wrong for Pietro to be depicted as a mustache twirling traitor type when there were ways to keep him closer to his core without taking that route. Now I will admit, I had a moment of weakness with this because I loved what it was doing with Lorna. But in the end, I still recognized it was a problem.

Even with the X of Swords issue of X-Factor. There were many problems with Lorna's treatment there, but there were problems all around. Rockslide fans were very upset with it, for good reason. And Rockslide had actual people around who knew him and had closer relationships with him. Why did they get shafted, with Lorna used instead?

Fandom should really strive for better. For all characters. Not just their pet favorites. Fandom should not be eager to throw other characters, other fandoms, everything that means so much to them and resonates with them, under the bus just so their own faves can get a little benefit out of it.

Fans should not be eager to make excuses for shitty treatment just cause that shitty treatment makes their fave look good. Fans should not want to see another character's potential undermined and thrown away just cause keeping that character down allows a book they like to prosper. Fans should not be trying to make sexism out to be nothing but satire just cause they think a female character "deserves terrible characterization."

These fans try to say their fandom is great. But then they act in ways that tell the world it's not.

It would be nice if they had some fucking principles for once.

[meadow-mellow]

Man. I'm too old for ship fighting/discourse. I ain't 16 anymore, dunno how these ppl manage to remain so stagnated mentally cause you'd expect they'd outgrow this kinda thing.

[scarlettaagni]

oh? like this?

[somerunner]

Unfortunately I don’t have examples, and it’s been a while since I read the comics (except the last one); I’ll have to pass that buck to other commenters. Or myself later.

Most of the mercs (Engineer, Heavy, Sniper, Spy, to a much lesser extent Demo and Medic) are also “straight-man-like” or mostly normal people, minus a breathtaking casualness about definitely-not-casual subjects. Pauling is the same as them in that regard. Spy doesn’t make terrible investments and only goes along with Scout reluctantly; Heavy takes everything seriously and only is a little insane regarding his gun, iirc Engineer and Sniper are also as roughly-normal as them. Pauling is more serious about covering their tracks, but will still go along with (and help create) the initial insane plans the group comes up with.

And then the hetero adventurer couple is equally battle-crazy as each other, kind of like Soldier and Zhanna.

There are far fewer women characters than men in the TF2 comics, but I’d say they are all equally insane as the men characters (even if they’re not given as much narrative power to act on their insanity, but that wasn’t the point of the OP).

one thing thats so important about tf2 is that all the women are just as insane and stupid as the men. youd think miss pauling is the level- headed voice of reason, but don't worry, she's neither level-headed or reasonable

[purgemarchlockdown]

Kotoko's ideology

(Also Known As: Kotoko has fascist ideals and I read way too many wikipedia pages for this.) (CWs: Discussion centered around Prejudice, ableism, sexism, and other topics that are associated with right winged/fascist concepts)

(Note: I went on this rabbit hole because of This post from Gunsli that covers things I don't cover here. Go read it! Plus this post exists because of a lot of conversations from friends out of fandom, and in fandom, like 74n5n and the affermentioned Gunsli who also helped in proofreading!)

So Kotoko is one of my personal favorites of the cast. There's a lot of things I find interesting and intriguing about her and her characterization and her place in the story.

One of those things is her worldview. I'm obsessed with it to say the least. It's one of my favorite things about her characterization. I find it to be a complex and emphatic look at a specific worldview:

Fascism.

Vigilante Justice

Okay so, fascism as an ideology is something we tend to associate with conservative right-wingers and powerful political parties. In our stories, there's a bit of a mythical edge to the image of fascist dystopia. Something strong and uniform.

Like, a lot of cartoons and shows and comics have the alternate nazi dimension where fascism reigns supreme over the populace, for example. We got many films and shows of the heroes standing up against faceless images of Evil Nazis or Nazi-likes, with leaders who are powerful scientists or soldiers hiding somewhere scheming something.

We can tell if someone is a fascist, we say to ourselves. The aesthetic qualities of fascism are something we can all recognize. Right?

Kotoko Yuzuhira is a (notably afab, put a pin in this) college dropout vigilante.

This is immediately incompatible with how we tend to view it. She's not a faceless drone or general. She's someone working with limited resources trying to hunt down evil because The Law can't do it.

A Underdog Revolutionary, that's how she thinks of herself.

Kotoko: Yes. I hate evil. Hurting innocent people with violence, taking away from others, killing people… I hate all this evil behaviour! The law being unable to judge some sins, there's too many of these cases in this world. Having clearly bullied and torturing the weak, but exploiting loopholes in laws, there's so many sinners who still live in such a carefree manner! Even though I want to change this world, I alone only have this much power.

Kershaw argues that the difference between fascism and other forms of right-wing authoritarianism in the Interwar period is that the latter generally aimed "to conserve the existing social order", whereas fascism was "revolutionary", seeking to change society and obtain "total commitment" from the population.[47]

Robert O. Paxton finds that even though fascism "maintained the existing regime of property and social hierarchy", it cannot be considered "simply a more muscular form of conservatism" because "fascism in power did carry out some changes profound enough to be called 'revolutionary.'"[228] These transformations "often set fascists into conflict with conservatives rooted in families, churches, social rank, and property."

And that's what she...is. I'm not going to say Kotoko is part of a secret evil organization or anything like that. She is an underdog, at least at the start of Milgram. She's a single individual up against society and social order. A Heroic individual standing up against erroneous social structures.

Really, Kotoko presents as very classically heroic, she's directly acting to save people, confident, doing real research, actually finding those who deserve punishment and bringing it upon them.

She's determined, she's strong willed, even when she's suffering she doesn't stop.

T2Q6: Don’t you feel scared of killing people?  A: If it’s for the world. How I feel about it is completely irrelevant.

It's sad and tragic, but she knows that if no one does it then nothing will actually change.

Kotoko: If you brag about hating evil, act against it! Carry on the belief that your actions can change this world! If you only brag about it from afar, the world will just continue to rot no matter how many of you are there!

She holds no attachment, no qualms, no second guesses. She does what is good at the cost of her own self, she's a heroic ideal in that sense. A hero so willing to do what is right even at the cost of their own self.

T2Q14: Don’t you feel a sense of isolation in your current situation?  A: It feels like nothings changed. If the world gets even a little better just by me undertaking this isolation, then that is the role the strong play.

Someone who actually has the strength and intelligence to do the things that no one else can do.

T2Q7: Why did you choose law school?  A: Because I have my suspicions. That’s the majority of my reason to why I chose to study it. Cause it’s unsightly to spout complaints without having proper knowledge T1Q4: When did you start learning martial arts?  A: In elementary school, perhaps. Without enough power, you can't enforce justice and do the right thing, can you?

Who actually acts instead of just waiting around for the world to fix itself.

Kotoko: You keep asking for it, but as soon as it happens near you by your own choice, you all start complaining and evading your responsibility... You're always like this... Always such idiots!

Able to actually handle the problems thrown at her, instead of running away like a coward.

T2Q20: What would you have done if you weren’t forgiven?  A: I’d despise it all. To compromise justice just because you’re unable to withstand the pain that comes with it is unbelievable

Fascism supports the creation of a New Man who is a strong-willed, dynamic archetype, a figure of direct action and bellicose violence. An anti-individualist, he is characterized by a sense of confidence and masculinity, quiet dignity and self-worth, determination, and authoritativeness. With a detachment from romantic love, family background and schooling, his worldview is romanticized, passionate, serious and realist, preoccupied with the honoring of fallen heroes, a strong belief in personal responsibility, national rebirth and renewal.

And there's something genuinely admirable about that intent of hers. It's sincere. She's disgusted at the state of the world, at how horrible it's become. Even implying that this isn't the Normal version of the world, but a distorted, corrupted one.

Becoming light-headed again, it all becomes crazy The normalcy sought for, Fading away, Everytime death comes The soul moves forward

1. The mythical past—used to invoke a nostalgia for a fictional time when the nation was great as it was not yet sullied by the “Other.”

Kotoko's ideology is built on an idea of the world's Unnatural Impurity. The idea that there is something corrupting and poisoning it. That Whatever is causing harm to the world is an External Thing. One that can be beaten if she puts enough pressure on it. At least for a while.

T2Q5: How do you deal with evil that can’t be bested by strength?  A: Force it so that it can. No matter how long it takes, no matter what means I’ll need to use.

So I ask the question, what Does she consider evil?

Sinners

Okay, so she already answered this question, in her T1 interrogations she describes evil as:

T1Q20: What do you think is evil? A: Oppressing innocent weaklings.

Which is a pretty cut and dry answer that she elaborates on in her VDs:

Kotoko: Yes. I hate evil. Hurting innocent people with violence, taking away from others, killing people… I hate all this evil behaviour! The law being unable to judge some sins, there's too many of these cases in this world. Having clearly bullied and torturing the weak, but exploiting loopholes in laws, there's so many sinners who still live in such a carefree manner!

Case Closed! We don't have to think more about this! Everyone go home! The post is done!

... Okay so it's not as simple as that. It's pretty clear that Kotoko's opinions on evil and how it should be treated is a bit...

Kotoko: Treat you like a child? Hah, you’ve got to be kidding. Back when I was your age, I was already the person I am today. I don’t have any plans to let you get away with something just “because you’re a child.” ……remember that.

Extreme, to say the least. She's very "Violence First." Because:

T2Q16: Do you think there are the ‘weak’ among the other prisoners?  A: I’m sure there’s a lot. Those with weak wills will easily turn to evil. The only thing we can do is firmly instil the risk of turning to it.

Which- There's another contradiction! She just defined evil as the ones who oppress weaklings, yet right here she shows her disdain for the weak for so easily turning to evil.

And again, in the same trial, she refers to the prisoners as:

T2Q11: Is there really no chance to start anew for wrongdoers?   A: No way. Once a beast gets a taste for human flesh, it will always come back for seconds.

And continues to discuss the matters of the strong, and how there oppressing the weak.

T2Q10: What is your ideal image of a hero?  A: An ally of the weak. Someone who helps the weak and crushes the strong.

These are two very conflicting ideas. It's almost like:

Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.

And not only that- Kotoko casts herself as an underdog, and the assumption of that role is presuming one as "weaker than" or "having less opportunity/power/skill" than the one above, the elites above her who are stronger and more powerful than her. The Beasts who roam the land. Who will always win, because, in her own words.

T2Q18: What would you do if evil disappeared from the world? A: I see where you’re getting at. But I believe it will never truly disappear.

"Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.

Kotoko: How amusing! Are you really a warden?  Es: Shut up...  Kotoko: You let their sins off just because they're close to you? You're making the punishment less severe just because they get along with you? What's next? Going to give them leniency for their looks? For their personality? For how long have you known them?  Es: I told you... to shut up...  Kotoko: Why would I? I'm trying to tell you the truth. In MILGRAM, a warden with mindset of yours is just usele-  Es: Shut the hell up! [slaps]  Kotoko: [catching breath] "Violence"... you call it? Being angry at hurting your precious prisoners... [laughs] Ha... It's not even violence at all.  Es: ?..  Kotoko: Weak... You're too weak. With that fragile body of yours, you can't stop anyone. You can't protect anyone. You can't even do your justice. All imperfect.  Es: Imperfect?..  Kotoko: In order to stop someone, you have to squeeze their throat. Without mercy.

There's this sort of...self victimization to it? If that makes sense.

6. Victimhood—casting “Us” as victims of “Them”, who are taking resources from “Us” and demanding special rights.

A sense of frustration and anger at herself and the world for being so weak and pathetic.

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood

And that these feelings of weakness and shame are real reasons to attack who she views as enemies. No matter if they are strong.

the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;

Or weak.

Because Kotoko holds a lot of genuine anger at who she considers "weak." As shown above and in Many other instances. She literally calls them "Useless weaklings" in her T2 voiceline. She has this Deep Anger and Bitterness at those who she considers not doing enough to help. To those who are failing to actually do anything of actual substance.

Kotoko: How ridiculous... It's always like this... All of you weaklings always act like this... All of you enjoy seeing someone getting hurt... (...)  Kotoko: You keep asking for it, but as soon as it happens near you by your own choice, you all start complaining and evading your responsibility... You're always like this... Always such idiots!  Es: I acknowledge it. You're the strong one, and we're weak. You're right. But that's how we are.  Kotoko: You have no power, and yet you make no effort to gain it! You're talking about justice, but it just doesn't make sense! You're invested in people's disasters, yet you take a position of "I have nothing to do with it"! You can't even face your true selves!

"Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.

So, if the words strong and weak just refer to the enemy, and those descriptors of the enemy can change depending on which one is more suitable for the situation. Thus making the idea of the evil that are "oppressing innocent weaklings" be more a subjective concept.

Then...what else can we search for when it comes to determining how Kotoko views who is "evil."

Cause, it's not just because they don't agree with her. It wouldn't have mattered if they agreed with her or not really. Yuno says it outright:

Yuno: Really? If you ask me, Kotoko is someone I would never want to make my friend, though. She’s the type who picks a conclusion from the very beginning and won’t actually talk with you.

Kotoko has stated that she has been tracking Mikoto Kayano since the start. Even though at the time she was semi-amicable with everyone. With Mikoto even being rather insistent that he did nothing wrong at all.

Kotoko: Like me being suspicious of Kayano Mikoto’s actions, carefully tracking his actions, it's all under your permission.

And she's said this again in the interrogation! Saying that she had "her suspicions."

T2Q17: Why did you choose law school?  A: Because I have my suspicions. That’s the majority of my reason to why I chose to study it. Cause it’s unsightly to spout complaints without having proper knowledge

Suspicious about what? About who? She says it's the evil, the sinners, but who is this? Who is this evil? Criminals? That's just the terminology she uses. If it really was just criminals shouldn't she be against MILGRAM? Es? They did kidnap her and she has no Knowledge of their true intentions, and yet she doesn't trust her fellow prisoners but the Guard who locked them up.

"Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's "fear" of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also antisemitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.

And so, I ask again. Who does Kotoko believe to be evil?

"Your Existence is a Crime"

Chauvinism (/ˈʃoʊvɪnɪzəm/ SHOH-vih-nih-zəm) is the unreasonable belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group or people, who are seen as strong and virtuous, while others are considered weak, unworthy, or inferior.

Kotoko Canonically Holds Ableist Beliefs.

This isn't up for debate.

22/12/15 (Kotoko’s Birthday)

Kotoko: Hm. The border between the two is getting a lot vaguer. Your entire existence is a crime. And I will see you’re punished for it. That is what Milgram, and Es, and I have chosen.

“UNDER” Doltish “001 Parasite”

Kotoko: “Fufufu, fufufufufu.You’re thinking some outrageous things.To be frank, it’s abnormal. But I don’t dislike it. If only all sinners were like you.”

Kotoko Also Canonically Holds Sexist Beliefs.

This also isn't up for debate.

Futa: Isn’t that obvious? What a stupid question. There’s no way a girl could win in a fight against a man. This is real life, not a manga. There’s too big a difference in body size. And that’s what determines the weight of your attacks.  Kotoko: ……Futa’s not entirely wrong there In a lot of martial arts, they specifically split up divisions based on body weight for that reason. I’m bantam, and he’d probably be either cruiser or heavy.

“UNDER” Obscene “002 Slut”

Now, as much as the phrases "Obscene Slut" and "Your entire existence is a crime" is Loaded. Let's pretend, for a second, that this doesn't necessarily mean that Kotoko, to some extent, believes that mentally ill people are evil/wrong and that women are weaker than men.

For a moment, let us pretend that Kotoko didn't just tell us and go into the finer details of how she views strong and weak.

Cause, there is a bit of consistent framing Kotoko uses when she's talking about "the enemy." Those who contribute something meaningful to society (in her eyes) are ones who "contribute" something meaningful to society mainly through the usage of direct action, physical strength, and physical/mental durability.

T1Q4: When did you start learning martial arts?  A: In elementary school, perhaps. Without enough power, you can't enforce justice and do the right thing, can you?

Kotoko: Es, look. Someone who committed a crime can only realise its severity through losing something. I've seen many criminals, but none of them would give way without pain.

Kotoko: Weak... You're too weak. With that fragile body of yours, you can't stop anyone. You can't protect anyone. You can't even do your justice. All imperfect.

Kotoko: You have no power, and yet you make no effort to gain it! You're talking about justice, but it just doesn't make sense! You're invested in people's disasters, yet you take a position of "I have nothing to do with it"! You can't even face your true selves!   Es: Whatever you say.  Kotoko: If you brag about hating evil, act against it! Carry on the belief that your actions can change this world! If you only brag about it from afar, the world will just continue to rot no matter how many of you are there! If you don't have strength on your own, let me take care of it, Es! I can do it in MILGRAM!

T1Q: What is your ideal image of a hero?  A: An ally of the weak. Someone who helps the weak and crushes the strong.

T2Q14: Don’t you feel a sense of isolation in your current situation?  A: It feels like nothings changed. If the world gets even a little better just by me undertaking this isolation, then that is the role the strong play.

Those who cannot do that and are "unable to contribute" or somehow disrupt the stable world, thus causing it's normalcy to "fade away" are parasites.

“UNDER” Doltish “001 Parasite”

Obscene

“UNDER” Obscene “002 Slut”

An existence that is disruptive to the world at large.

Kotoko: Your entire existence is a crime. And I will see you’re punished for it.

Who are Weak due to a issue in there mental state and need to be warned against the consequences of "turning to evil."

T2Q16: Do you think there are the ‘weak’ among the other prisoners?  A: I’m sure there’s a lot. Those with weak wills will easily turn to evil. The only thing we can do is firmly instil the risk of turning to it.

Or be treated as irrational beasts that need to be firmly put down because nothing else will get through to them.

T2Q11: Is there really no chance to start anew for wrongdoers?  A: No way. Once a beast gets a taste for human flesh, it will always come back for seconds.

Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics.[264] Fascism views violent action as a necessity in politics that fascism identifies as being an "endless struggle";[265] this emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts). The basis of fascism's support of violent action in politics is connected to social Darwinism.[265] Fascist movements have commonly held social Darwinist views of nations, races and societies.[266] They say that nations and races must purge themselves of socially and biologically weak or degenerate people, while simultaneously promoting the creation of strong people, in order to survive in a world defined by perpetual national and racial conflict.[267]

Social Darwinism is the study and implementation of various pseudoscientific theories and societal practices that purport to apply biological concepts of natural selection and survival of the fittest to sociology, economics and politics.[1][2] Social Darwinists believe that the strong should see their wealth and power increase, while the weak should see their wealth and power decrease.

"The only thing we can do is firmly instil the risk of turning to it."

Kotoko's ideological view is, at the very best, biased against those of marginalized groups or of "degenerate" thoughts and actions, and at the very worst, actively targets them because she personally believes that they Do Not Contribute to Society.

But we aren't done there yet.

Werewolves

Let's take that pin out now.

Kotoko has gone on record that she views Femininity as:

T1Q10: What do you think about the word 'feminimity'?  A: It's one of the means you can take. It's something you can freely choose depending on the scene, so it's not something to cling onto.

Now, as I have shown. She's kinda sexist. Which throws into question how she perceives herself.

Since, I have just asserted the idea that Kotoko does, at the very least, hold some concerning ideas about Women, and I think most people would notice that this is a bit contradictory when she herself isn't really the feminine ideal as decreed by the patriarchy either.

Now, just to be clear here, no, I do not think women should be baby machines. I am a cat who cannot perceive it properly.

However, if we are going by the strict gender binary and the stereotypes associated with it. Kotoko is pretty masculine. She puts focus on physical strength, she's mentally strong in the face of ills, she doesn't show much emotion, so on.

However, as Utena and also The World has proven to us. Just because you present or act in "non-traditional manners" doesn't mean You've Deconstructed the Gender Binary and the Patriarchal View of the World we Learn from the Society around us.

You can be the butchest girl the prison can handle and still hold traditional gender roles.

And the way Kotoko interacts with the world indicates that she still Holds these ideas, even if she has deconstructed them a bit, and since we are talking about her ideology...

Fascist Italy promoted what it considered normal sexual behaviour in youth while denouncing what it considered deviant sexual behaviour.[271] It condemned pornography, most forms of birth control and contraceptive devices (with the exception of the condom), homosexuality and prostitution as deviant sexual behaviour,

Sexual anxiety—as the “Other” embraces non-traditional approaches to sexuality,

But, going further into the way she views masculinity specifically...

"Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality".

Machismo, Exaggerated pride in masculinity, perceived as power, often coupled with a minimal sense of responsibility and disregard of consequences. In machismo there is supreme valuation of characteristics culturally associated with the masculine and a denigration of characteristics associated with the feminine.

Futa: Isn’t that obvious? What a stupid question. There’s no way a girl could win in a fight against a man. This is real life, not a manga. There’s too big a difference in body size. And that’s what determines the weight of your attacks.  Kotoko: ……Futa’s not entirely wrong there

"Without enough power, you can't enforce justice" is what she said, isn't it?

Road to Hell

Okay, there was 700 more things I wanted to talk about but because I haven't even gotten into:

Through all of that, there would be one great leader who would battle the representatives of the old system with grassroots support.[1][2] In the fascist utopia, one mass of people will supposedly appear who have only one goal: to create their new future.[1][2] Such a fascist movement would ideally have infinite faith in its mythical hero who would stand for everything the movement believes in.[1][2] According to this utopian ideology, under the guidance of their leader the country would then rise like a phoenix from the ashes of corruption and decadence.[1][2]

Or her ideals of heroism or her view of violence in detail or-

But I think I can leave that to the people reading this. This post is getting really long and I'm trying to still keep it structured. I know all my links are Wikipedia and one Britannica. I had the energy to transcribe my dad's books on this I would.

However, we also do need to ask, where does this leave us?

Y'know, since Kotoko is the Audience Parallel and Milgram is a Social Commentary Webseries.

Well, Kotoko is a character in fiction, and fiction is the safest place to explore this. Kotoko Yuzuriha is a familiar character in the sense that a lot of people are like her actually.

Gunsli has brought up the idea that Kotoko was radicalized by news, and I personally think All the characters in Milgram have underlying right wing ideas and violent views on the world. It's not something...unique to them even. We call them conservative and traditional because to a lot of people it's "just the way the world works." Kotoko’s not special or unique for believing in these things.

She’s asserted multiple times that she’s had a “normal life” and whether or not you doubt the validity of that statement. There is nothing inherent about Kotoko that makes her more susceptible to this. 

And I think those are themes that are worth exploring.

[speedcomic]

Interestingly I had similar things happen in other fandoms, although never quite to this scale.

I'm somehow almost always in a fandom before it kinda blows up and become more mainstream- which interestingly is always the time when fanon headcanons and characters being more of a trope become more viewed as canon by fans. The few fandoms I was in that remained in that bubble never had this problem, and the ones that died in the public eye are all back to normal.

There is some interesting parallels with how much fanon gets accepted as canon and how many people there are that either has barely or ever interacted with the source material.

However while there has been people who don't consume the source material, it is only the ones in the DC fandom that gets mad when you tell them to please consume the source. For all other fandoms the response is pretty much "my bad" or "i will get around to it", the DC fandom is the only one where people start to argue with you over it.

The evolution of fanon within DC is such an interesting concept and something I'd honestly, if I had the time, would love to accurately research because all I have are my experiences witnessed firsthand over a period of 25 years.

20 years ago, fanon did not have this deep seeded root within DC fandom. Back then we did have "fanon" takes and wild headcanons, but the fandom as a whole recognized that these takes and silly ideas were not canon and were totally detached from the source material.

It was fanfic, and a staple part of fandom which back then was called simply "crack".

It was "crack headcanons" and "crack ships" and "crack scenarios" let's put those bat-boys in a situation and see what happens! Let's dial up those emotions and reduce these characters down to a trope and have fun with it bc it's all fanfic and good. We'd have a laugh, joke about it, and move on and discuss what Geoff was up to.

But then something started happening around 2013, and maybe sooner, I am basing this on my own memories and experiences, where people started treating these headcanons and funny takes as actual real accurate representations of the source material and doubled down on being intentionally illiterate.

Anyway it is such an odd evolution, like some weird game of fanfic telephone.

[penny-anna]

definitely like. a lot of interplay in the Batfamdon between fandom racism & sexism and the fact that there's a lot of people who haven't actually read that many batman comics. 'ppl like Jason bcos of his trauma' fair but like not only is Jason not the only batkid to have major trauma, he isn't even the only batkid to have been murdered by the Joker specifically

[fancyfade]

Ok out of a conversation w/ @antifa-terra

I think that fandom often likes to focus on panels they can post on tumblr to prove why something is good or bad, and generally ignores broader narratives.

Liek I know I see people acting like Simone's BoP is super misogynistic* because there are things you can grab and see "oh the characters are slut shaming this is obviously super misogynistic"

which. It is misogynistic. I don't deny that that's a misogynistic thing. But. overall, less misogynistic than many other comics, because fans just. don't care if female characters don't have any narrative significance. or only have narrative significance that relates to a man.

like compare Dinah's treatment in Simone's BoP to Grell's Longbow Hunters and Hunter Moon. a lot of BoP interacted specifically with the misogynistic writing of Longbow Hunters, but it's hard to grab a specific moment from Longbow Hunters and say "oh see how awful this is" because like... it's just. in general her narrative is about making a man sad. she's treated as not competent to go out alone and gets tortured to make a man sad, and then the recovery is about reassuring the audience she still feels comfortable having sex with Ollie while she has no agency herself and is hypnotized. how do you screenshot that?

Same thing with the way fandom generally tends towards like "oh look at Damian baby misogynist". you can grab some panels of him calling women harlots, which yes, is misogynistic. But generally Tim's treatment of female characters is ignored, because he doesn't have one or two panels** but rather a general trend of treating them as if they are less capable of making decisions, less competent than him, in general lesser. hard to grab one panel that perfectly encapsulates that.

anyway very frustrating to analyze, especially when single panels can be treated as like "call out" posts for a certain character or run. Like comics can have plenty of flaws, and I talk about them a lot. and characters can have plenty of flaws. But the ones that are embedded in the narrative are oftentimes more relevant than the ones that are easily screencapped

*when like. there are so many other issues you can take with it? Why not the racism? the ableism?

**Well I mean he does have some panels but I guess people ignore them?

[iwillstapyou]

TW classism

So with nevermore coming back I wanted to post about something that I don't really see discussion on in the fandom and that is the role class plays in the character dynamics, so let's talk about it

The first thing we should understand is what nevermore is/isn't, nevermore unlike arcane is not a comic that focuses on class as a topic, in arcane the background to the event's of the show is a literal class war, meanwhile in nevermore it's more a story about homophobia and sexism than anything else. That being said class is still important we can see this in 2 characters Ada and duke first Ada:

Ada is shown to consistently present as high class there are honestly two many examples to list here but one that will come up later is her last meal ie caviar which is famous for being a rich person food, the only thing we know for certain about her life is that she was a servant who fell in love with her master and was murdered by him one last thing of characterization is the fact that she is very classiest this is more when she has a crush on prospero then anything else.

Duke:

Duke is shown to also be classes but in the other direction ⬆️ he has a reall distain for the rich. Which I totally understand. This can be seen right before the maze trial where he calls Anabelle a 'pris'. Yet an interesting detail is his last meal is some type of rare songbird that the wealthy eat, that is a very unique bit of characterization on R&F's part and a parallel with Ada ( I probably will talk about this in a separate post so stay toned)

So with all of this in mind how does class effect nevermore, well it kinda does depend on the 2 teams first the misfits are mostly low class in origin w/ the exaction of Lenore who crew up rich, but in terms of Annabell's group is mostly the same the only rich people being prospereo and annabelle. But by in large class does not affect nevermore outside of a few characters.

tell me what you think.

[scintillyyy]

i find such a radical "dixon hasn't written anything good and is personally responsible for all the conservative agenda in comics of 90s" opinion in fandom quite funny.

like if he hadn't made such a right turn, now everyone would say about him "well yeah his works haven't aged so well and sometimes he wrote crap, but there were good stories too!" as about many other comic writers.

yea Don't get me wrong there is a lot that that man derserves to get called out for and taken to task for. but mmm i do think that because he took such a vocal, public descent into some truly atrocious behavior and opinions he does become the easy target to place all the blame onto. and while he deserves plenty of blame himself, you do see that some far beloved writers have some of the same issues he does in their writing that they often get a pretty hefty pass for in comparison. he is treated as if his writing *has* to be somehow worse than everyone else as far as issues like sexism or racism or classism, when his is honestly not even the most sexist work coming out of dc comics or comics in general in that era (were there better? yes. were there much worse? ....absolutely yes) and issues of racism and classism were very present even in other writers that were politically opposite him (alan grant in rite of passage comes to mind, but even if you look outside of batbooks you're going to find those things. sometimes done better than batbooks, sometimes done worse than batbooks)

and listen. it's easy to want to attribute every rancid opinion to him because of his current day views, but when you look at only the bad things, you miss that he also may have had some views in his works that you may actually agree with--i was discussing in the comment of my last ask and i re-read the story this morning (electric city, detective comics #644-646) and it does make me agree, but in a lot of his works he does end up kind of coming across as staunchly anti-death penalty in a lot of his batman work despite being pro-prison as punitive punishment. and it's like. he is catholic apparently and that's kind of common view in catholics especially of his generation--that prison as punishment is deserved for the wicked, but that the death penalty is ultimately a moral wrong. and it's like. well i know i agree a lot with his feelings on the death penalty that shines through while disagreeing with a lot of other things in his work. i think sometimes even if the person is abhorrent you can't just attribute only the bad things to him. even a broken clock is right twice a day. and even working clocks get off-tempo sometimes. i think sometimes dixon deserves most of the blame. sometimes that blame deserves to be spread around a little bit.