#clean wehrmacht myth

[victusinveritas]

The same vintage erotica blog is going to come out with: Ilsa, She-Wolf of WWII German Army, Don't Think Too Much About It

Unfollowed a vintage erotica blog just now because I actually don't think "WWII German soldiers bathing" is a neutral subject to fap to? Like, sure, they're naked now, but you know what their uniforms were, right? Right?

[wirelessw]

Recently read Das Boot. If you want a book about the futility of war and bad things happening to nazis, 10/10. You will not find a better showcase of those two things.

[6thofapril1917]

6thofapril1917's Eastern Front Reading List

So, you're an HBO War fan who wants to learn more about the Eastern Front. Maybe you, like me, wanted to know why Masters of the Air's depiction of the Nazis was so much darker than in Band of Brothers. Below is a list of books on the topic that I've been assigned during my time studying Eastern European and Soviet History. Most of these are scholarly monographs, not pop history, but I found them gripping regardless. I've provided Internet Archive links when available, and links to booksellers when not. If anyone else has suggestions, feel free to add them in reblogs - I focus primarily on Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine.

The Eastern Front, 1941-1945, German Troops and the Barbarisation of Warfare; 2nd edition by Omer Bartov (Palgrave Macmillan, 2001). Available on Internet Archive.

Originally published in 1985. The first book in English to comprehensively challenge the Clean Wehrmacht myth. Examines the experiences, indoctrination, and crimes of Wehrmacht soldiers.

Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945 by Catherine Merridale (Picador, 2007).

Looks into the day-to-day life and experiences of soldiers in the Red Army. Probably the most accessible of the books on this list in terms of writing style.

A Writer at War: A Soviet Journalist with the Red Army, 1941-1945 by Vasily Grossman, trans. Anthony Beevor and Luba Vinogradova (Pantheon, 2007).

A collection of primary sources and writings from Soviet journalist Vasily Grossman, who was embedded with the Red Army.

Russia at War, 1941-1945: A History by Alexander Werth (Barrie & Rockliff, 1964).

Similar to Grossman, Werth was a British journalist for the BBC and the Sunday Times during the war. Details his experiences while embedded with the Red Army.

The Unwomanly Face of War by Svetlana Alexievich, trans. Richard Pevear and Larissa Volkhonsky (Random House, 2017).

Originally published in the USSR in 1983. Nobel Prize winner Alexievich's Groundbreaking oral history of women who served in the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War. One of my personal favorites.

Last Witnesses: an Oral History of the Children of World War II by Svetlana Alexievich, trans. Pevear and Volkhonsky (Random House, 2019).

Originally published in the USSR in 1985. Covers the experiences of Soviet children on the Eastern Front, soldier, partisan, and civilian alike.

Marching into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus by Waitman Wade Beorn (Harvard University Press, 2014).

Examines the Wehrmacht and its crucial role in carrying out the Holocaust in Belarus.

Fortress Dark and Stern: The Soviet Home Front during World War II by Wendy Z. Goldman and Donald Filtzer (Oxford University Press, 2021).

Comprehensive overview of the Soviet home front over the course of the war, including the mass evacuations of people and industry into Siberia and Central Asia. An absolutely fascinating read.

The Myth of the Eastern Front: The Nazi-Soviet War in American Popular Culture by Ronald Smelser and Edward J. Davies II (Cambridge University Press, 2008). Available on Internet Archive.

Analyzes the creation of the Clean Wehrmacht myth by German war veterans, the myth's popularization in American culture, and its impact on Americans' understanding of the Eastern Front. Spoiler: Band of Brothers does not come out of this unscathed.

[txttletale]

why do you make so many posts denouncing behaviours that you yourself engage in all the time tho its kind of hilarious

literally what could this possibly be talkjing about. tyrying to think about my recent posts. ami a known ship warrer. did i create a video game that promotes the clean wehrmacht myth. did i accuse the CPC of rigging the hugo awards

[goldammerchen]

last one https://www.hetarchive.net/blog/2009/03/07/blog-entry-493/

also not to throw my hat into the disk horse ring but I'm p sure he was also depicted in a tanker's uniform in one of the sketches which were black which. may add to some fan confusion.

[freewingthefree]

it's worth mentioning applesauce also perpetuated the clean wehrmacht myth and that backlash likely contributed to their deactivation

She very much did not. To claim as much would ignore all nuance.

I read through that whole chain. She mis-spoke, ONCE, and corrected herself, and apologized, and listened to what others said. What more would you ask? That is all that is needed.

She was publicly worried about having messed up and accidentally spread misinformation. Or did you miss that?

Don't come here and slander my friend.

Dont come here and call a Jew a Nazi

Dont come here and excuse antisemitic behavior.

She does not deserve that.

Fuck off.

[racefortheironthrone]

What was Captain America's attitude to German soldiers in WWII? Obviously he despised anyone who was actually a Nazi, but what about just ordinary soldiers?

That's a very good question!

Because of who he was, Captain America had an unusally broad experience of WWII compared to other soldiers in the U.S Army.

As a super-soldier and leader of the Invaders, he spearheaded the Allied effort against super-scientists like Zemo and Zola, HYDRA agents like Strucker and the Red Skull, and Nazi super-soldiers like Master Man, Baron Blood, Warrior Woman, U-Man, etc. Moreover, the Marvel Universe version of WWII significantly differs from real-world history in that both American and Russian super-soldiers were involved in the Battle for Berlin that ended with the Human Torch turning his fire on Hitler himself.

As a special forces officer, he served in conventional front-line and behind-the-lines operations (often with the Howling Commandos) in the European theater from Anzio and Monte Cassino to the Normandy landings, Arnheim, the Battle of the Bulge, the crossing of the Rhine, and the liberation of Diebenwald; in the African theater from Tunisia to Wakanda; and even in the Pacific Theater, although there he was mostly doing intelligence and special operations work rather than front-line service.

As the symbol of the American war effort, however, Rogers was dispatched to fronts that American soldiers were usually not engaged in, whether that's fighting with the French Resistance, or being dispatched to the Eastern Front to demonstrate America's commitment to the USSR and counter Nazi super-science and super-soldiers sent to break the stalemate at Stalingrad.

Between his broad wartime experience and his experience with HYDRA sleeper agents after the war, I don't think Steve Rogers is much of a believer in the "myth of the clean Wehrmacht."

At the same time, he's also not a believer that there was something inherent about German culture that made it vulnerable to fascism and Nazism - indeed, Cap is very insistent that fascism can happen anywhere and must be fought everywhere:

[centrally-unplanned]

Ran into a random pet peeve of mine on the Imperial War Museum website on Operation Barbarossa:

Hitler disagreed with his generals on strategy. He delayed the thrust on Moscow to reinforce his troops in the north and south. It was a fateful decision. The Soviets had time to defend their capital. As the brutal Russian winter took hold the German advance ground to a halt just short of the city. Soviet forces then counterattacked, forcing the Germans onto the defensive. It was Hitler’s first defeat of the war.

This isn't an Ash Hot Take or anything, while the "Nazi August pivot away from the center" is deeply debated vis vis the question of what the optimal decision would be, no one considers the Nazi "generals" - what they mean here is OKH and certain field commanders like Kludge - to be this fountain of expertise that the dilettante Hitler was meddling with. Everyone was inventing plans as the Soviet dissolution just failed to materialize by August, the idea that OKH held that the USSR would "collapse" if Moscow fell is not supported by any evidence, and meanwhile the "southern pivot" resulted in the Battle of Kiev, the greatest victory of Operation Barbarossa by numbers beyond the opening days. IMO most people think ignoring the flanks was impossible and something like a pivot had to occur, but there is no consensus.

Yet the myth persists because after WW2 the surviving Nazi generals got to write the history of the war they lost, and blaming Hitler was extremely convenient for their reps. And just like the "clean Wehrmacht" myth these detritus ideas became imbedded in the pop understanding of the war. IMO the clean Wehrmacht idea has been shredded, you wont find that in highschool textbooks anymore. But people don't care about strategy in the same way, so 1980's consensus still trundles on even in places that should know better.

[cotaco-witch-blog]

The modern Western animal rights movement has its roots in some laws passed in 1635. By an English guy who was disgusted with how farm workers treated sheep, cattle, and dogs. Adolf Hitler and the Nazis weren't a thing in 1635. The German state really didn't even exist then, either. But sure, tell me how Hitler time traveled back to 1635 to say that you can't rape sheep and skin them alive or that drowning dogs to control the population is inhumane.

The whole idea of animal welfare is Nazi bullshit and racism packed into feel good packaging. Since you think animals should be treated humanely, you're defending Nazis because valued that, too.

Remind me to never let you around my cat. Because what the fuck? You can care about animals and people, too? Is Foreverland Farm a secret bastion of Nazism because they believe in treating old work horses humanely? You know, the people who regularly get harassed by right wing types because they encourage people to register to vote? The people who support very leftwing causes like stopping climate change, women's healthcare, and LGBT rights?

Think carefully before you answer. I've worked with them.

Are you pro animal abuse? I've done work in the rescue world. Like, I get the contention between animal welfare and animal rights (PETA has done a lot of damage and ALF has done more), but to be totally against people treating animals kindly? So you think it's moral to beat, starve, rape, and torture animals?

Seriously, there is no way you could pull anything like that from what I wrote.

Read your blog. You think that Nazis don't deserve to die, but animals deserve to be abused. You, by the implications of what you said, identify with Nazis. You admitted yourself, when you replied to that ask, that there are parallels between yourself and how Nazis are treated. Maybe you didn't (and don't) realize it, but you identify with the Nazis. I don't think you realize it, but your priorities are fucked.

And I think that's fucked.

she sure wants to keep using that slur someone used sixteen years ago.🙄she's so trashy.

Wild how, after *i* suggest that she should maybe try clearing the air and let people know that, hmm, stealing artwork is wrong and she won't do it, for example-- suddenly it's more important that WE disavow a statement we never said, much less endorsed.

I'm so frickin tired of reading her twist up your actions and say you're 'attacking' her. IT IS LUDICROUS. It's just embarrassing and sad. No wonder she can't ride a bike, she keeps throwing a stick in the spokes for attention and blaming people who give it to her.

I think she harassed a creator of a show she likes and got blocked, I'm sure she can go ahead and explain why that's a ridiculous notion. 💚

Harassment does tend to get you blocked. I did chat with wandering-wolf the other day on Reddit and he confirmed that she did harass him. She also tried to twist up his words, too, and got very angry that he called her on homophobic abuse. Want to know why? Because apparently she didn't use the exact words that he said when he called her on it.

It's almost like she doesn't understand that paraphrasing exists. And if 90% of this drama is over a sex fantasy posted by an internet edgelord... Nangbaby needs help. She needed help yesterday. She does not seem to understand why I don't like Nazis and why I think the world would be better off without them. Does she identify with them? Maybe? And not in a "cool uniforms, hateful people" kind of way (for the record, not my opinion at all, I'm just paraphrasing stuff I've seen on Reddit). It's like she's fallen in love with the supposed "romance" of the doomed heroic German soldier forced into battle narrative. That's baby's first Nazi apologism, by the way (as with before, conscripts are a different story. We're talking about the people who had a choice in the matter). She's built this entire delusion on how she's a doomed romantic hero unjustly hated by the world. If the bit about German soldiers isn't true...

She can't see nuance. It's either her way or the highway. She literally can't comprehend that she might be wrong or that people are reacting in disgust to racist ideas. I don't actually hate her. I think she must be very lonely and being an edgelord is the only way she gets attention.

Because I know you're going to read this, Nangbaby, and do some impressive mental gymnastics: volunteering at your local animal shelter is far more fulfilling than arguing with strangers on the internet and defending Nazis.

[velvetvexations]

I get political neutrality is taken for granted in music about past conflicts and military culture, but Corb Lund really didn't need to include a line about riding with Nathan Bedford Forest in Horse Soldier, Horse Soldier's titular track. Like, you already mentioned Custer, you already had your racist white guy from about the same era. I guess it's different because Custer, ya know, died at Big Horn and in THAT verse the lyrics then go on to immediately identify with the Sioux, too. On the other hand, Nathan Bedford Forest did make a big turnaround towards the end of his life, but it's still deeply uncomfortable to be singing a song and get to the part where it's like "I fought for [the first Grand Wizard of the KKK]".

Like, Sabaton's Ghost Division doesn't namedrop Hitler, and I'm still not even totally comfortable with that song because the Clean Wehrmacht myth has been solidly debunked over and over. If you wanna make a politically neutral balled about the people who have fought and died over the course of human history, that already takes a lot of debate regarding how much you can treat "the average soldier" as politically neutral, so why mention specific individuals who are absolutely not politically neutral figures by any stretch of the imagination?

[rabbitrah]

Hm thinking about parallels between the clean Wehrmacht myth and the lost cause of the Confederacy myth. I'm not sure if the driving force is more the antisemitism and racism itself or just the refusal to accept that your loved ones/family members/ancestors committed atrocities. They also have the similarity of prior enemies perpetuating the myth after the fact. Like US President Eisenhower and NATO shoulder a lot of responsibility for perpetuating the idea of a German army held captive by the SS. Similarly, a lot of the USAmerican books and movies made in the 20s and 30s that show confederate rebels in a tragic/sympathetic light were made and consumed and believed by Northerners. It's counter intutive, but maybe it's like a rushed desire to "reconcile" by the non-guilty party instead turns into a full historical rewrite. I'm not going anywhere with this, just thinking. Historical negationism is so weird and scary... I guess I feel like if I could just understand how and why this happens, we could get better at combating it.

[6thofapril1917]

going to make a longer post about this later but i find the shift in how the nazis are portrayed in band of brothers vs. in masters of the air fascinating. as a student of eastern european history i think it’s mainly down to 1. the end of the “clean wehrmacht” myth in wwii historiography between 2001 and 2024, and 2. the fact that masters of the air actually deals directly with the eastern front while bob sidesteps it

[dukeofriven]

Every time this post comes around I think about Gil Scott-Heron's 'Whitey's on the Moon.' I think about the slaves of Peenemünde and the snatch-ups of Operation Paperclip finding such a welcoming home in the Deep South. I think about the appalling misogyny of the Apollo astronauts, their conservatism, those military men so pleased to be able to come home and shake Nixon's hand . I think a lot about the myths we tell about our past, how all the edges and moral compromises get sanded-off: of drawing a line from the clean Wehrmacht to the clean NASA, the ways in which the outflow of billions to space development was shared and shaped by the aerospace industry to grow and improve the nuclear arsenal and the rockets and bombs that would spend the subsequent decades falling on the rest of the world. I think about Apollo 11 on the pad: Luftwaffe engineer Günter Wendt, (whom John Glenn 'whimsically' dubbed "der Führer of der Launch Pad") shaking hands with Neil Armstorng (who as a bomber had helped contribute to the destruction of 85% of all North Korean buildings in the still on-going Korean War), Buzz Aldrin (who flew 66 combat missions in that same war), and Michael Collins (trained to deliver nuclear bombs as one of LeMay's boys). I think about the companies that built and were enriched by the Saturn V, the LEM, and the command and service modules: North American Aviation, Rockwell, McDonnell Douglas, Grumman, names who litter the battlefields on munitions and materiel. I think about the Reverend Ralph Abernathy Sr. with his protestors at Apollo 11, singing We Shall Overcome and pleading for something to be done about the crushing poverty afflicting his people. I think about the majority of Americans who were against Apollo, not because they were hide-bound or anti-tech but because they recognized its primary function was propaganda and coup-scoring against the Soviet Union in a time of serious privation. It certainly wasn't for science: even a cursory history of Apollo will note how sidelined the scientists were, and how negligible the scientific return was compared to what robotic probes could achieve faster, cheaper, and safer (which, indeed, has been an unavoidable criticism of manned spaceflight ever since.) You want to celebrate the Moon Landing? Sure. Why? I don't mean 'why' in the snide 'who cares' sort of way: I am not immune to the aesthetic glory of landing on the moon, to the power of its imagery, to the romanticism of the endeavor. If I was immune I would not have devoured as many books on the subject as i have, nor poured so much of my life into science fiction and all things space-themed. But, equally, I also understand that I was supposed to focus on those things, that the romanticism and the glory was the whole rhetorical point. If you want to celebrate the Moon Landing, it is imperative to ask the question 'why - and in what way?' At its best the Moon Landing can only be celebrated in the abstract, as the pinnacle of the Western values of technophilia and ingenuity. What gets harder is to celebrate it on a more personal level: the driving forces behind it were, at best, flawed people, at worst painfully human, men (and so many men) who were key players in the great crimes of our times, from Kennedy's brinkmanship in the second Indochina War, to the rehabilitated Nazis who put so much into the engineering, to the systemic misogyny of NASA as an organization to the astronaut corp themselves: a groups, as their own interviews and histories show, were largely the product of the time as conservative, white military men.

Hey. Why isn’t the moon landing a national holiday in the US. Isn’t that fucked up? Does anyone else think that’s absurd?

[warsofasoiaf]

First, let me say that I don’t believe in the myth of the clean Wehrmacht. The army performed plenty of dirty and terrible crimes during the war. But my question is this, how much did the field marshals and the German High Command know about the final solution and the actions of Himmler and SS?

The Wehrmacht were aware of the genocidal plans of Nazi Germany. They was aware of the Einsantzgruppen, the extermination squads, including provided motorized units, logistics, housing, and placing men on guard shifts for prisoners, along with Wehrmacht officers helped destroy incriminating documents. They were aware of Generalplan Ost, which would have consisted of large-scale ethnic cleansing and genocide programs to take place in Eastern and Central Europe.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[jennyboom21]

The Mandalorian star Gina Carano, who plays former Rebel Alliance soldier Cara Dune, has drawn ire on social media for comparing being a Republican in the United States to being a European Jew during the time of the Holocaust.

On her Instagram story, Carano shared a post from another social media account detailing how strong fascist influence in Europe made it easier for Nazis to persecute Jews by first making even non-Nazis hate them, leaving the Jewish population with few people to turn to. The post ends by positing, "How is that any different from hating someone for their political views?" Notably, Carano herself is an outspoken conservative.

In the time since she shared the post, #FireGinaCarano has started trending on Twitter, with thousands calling for Disney and Lucasfilm to remove her from The Mandalorian.Gina Carano is saying that being a Republican today is equal to being a Jew during the Holocaust.

The level of cognitive dissonance is appalling. #FireGinaCaranoToday would be a good day to #FireGinaCarano @starwars https://t.co/To2porLu1b

This is absolutely fucking disgusting. @disney FIRE GINA!! #FireGinaCarano pic.twitter.com/FOSlwFw8DHIt's 

DESPICABLE that Gina Carano is comparing being a Republican to being a Jewish person during the Holocaust, and it's INFURIATING that she will see #FireGinaCarano as proving her point. That woman is a disease. And while it's far from the point... she cannot act.

Carano has sparked controversy in the past. Notable examples include what was perceived as a mockery of the transgender community by inserting "beep/bop/boop" in her Twitter bio in lieu of pronouns; discouraging mask-wearing amid the COVID-19 pandemic; suggesting the possibility of voter fraud during the 2020 Presidential Election. In fact, this isn't the first time #FireGinaCarano has trended on Twitter.

Created by Jon Favreau, The Mandalorian stars Pedro Pascal, Gina Carano, Carl Weathers and Giancarlo Esposito. Season 3 has yet to receive a premiere date.

[your-instructions-from-moscow]

Did the Rommel Myth and Clean Wehrmacht myth (and others) pushed after World War II come from Government level or Academia?

Wehrmacht vs SS

If the Wehrmacht committed atrocities and war crimes on such a grand scale, why was it not declared a criminal organisation like the Waffen SS?

Literature and Reading on the "Clean Wehrmacht" Myth