#cis men that do know me do not see me as a man

[transfemme-shelterdog]

I genuinely thought my wife would remain the only trans woman i have ever met who dont think trans men are being insufferable brats when we attempt to talk about how we're treated for being the "dirty icky yucky oppressor" gender by other queer people and seen as a wannabe half-breed by cis people. im really, indescribably happy i've met another one. I cant thank you enough for talking about trans men and our struggles and not treating us all like some horrible insane collective of crybabies. thank you so much. thank you so so so fucking much. i know you get dozens of these but i am typing this through tears in my eyes. Thank you.

I want to add: I'm black. I cant articulate it well, but watching (mostly) white women parade around how much they're entitled to hate hate hate queer men and how we could never ever ever be socially ostracized/oppressed for our identities makes me scared when i know about who Emmett Till was. That mentality still exists within cis white women and it makes me TERRIFIED to interact with them. White women do have a sort of social power over black men and it is fucking terrifying to be exposed to IRL. Seeing white trans women latch onto that exact same power and ferociously defend their right to do so puts a level of fear and hurt in me that i also cant describe very well. I hope that makes sense, because i have experienced this dynamic with white women personally.

Hey man, glad you reached out to me, and thank you for sharing your experiences with me. As a trans white woman, I'm inclined to agree that it's mainly white women/transfems who are pulling this shit. It's really concerning seeing not only my fellow queer women, but also white people completely ignoring the oppression that trans men (especially POC) face globally. Like, in the US there's the upcoming administration that's gonna ban birth control, the loss of abortion rights already, and the bathroom/sports bills that affect all trans people, not to mention corrective rape in the Southern states. Then in other countries there's FGM and more corrective rape.

We should be working together, not pushing each other down to see who has it "worse", because we all face oppression in different ways.

I can only hope that we come together at some point, else we are truly fucked.

[eva-does-its-best]

“You don't need to do any comparison for that, you just need to know the issues, the root, and think on how to (kinda) fix it.” okay… and “misandry”/“androphobia” aren’t real forms of oppression, and misogyny is. misogyny affects women more than it affects men. trans women are women and trans men are men; therefore, trans women are hurt more by misogyny than trans men are. knowing the issues and roots of oppression /involves/ understanding how “transandrophobia” can’t exist and that what transmascs face is transphobia. transandrophobia is misogyny the same way transphobia and homophobia and lesbophobia are misogyny, that’s what the “roots” are. there is no man-hating “root” of oppression to intersect with transphobia for trans men. and saying that isn’t saying transmascs aren’t oppressed! we’re oppressed by transphobia!!

Ok you are totally missing the point, so allow me to explain things to you because it seems either no one bothered to or maybe you just never read it.

•You cannot take the trans- prefix away from transandrophobia, because it is the specific intersection of transphobia for trans MEN and transmascs. The prefix trans is 100% a requirement because we are talking first and foremost about transphobia, of the specific kind faced by men and men/masculine adjacent people, alright?

• Transandrophobia is not an intersection of transphobia and androphobia/misandry, it is an intersection of transphobia and misoginy, just like transmisoginy, it simply needs a different name because it is specific for men and men/masculine adjacent trans people, and its manifestations and issues are many times different from transmisoginy. Ok?

(Transphobia + misoginy) Applied to women and fems= transmisoginy

(Transphobia + misoginy) Applied to men and mascs= Transandrophobia

•No, before/in case you say it, we won't use transemasculation, transandrophobia doesn't always manifest in a stripping of masculinity, it also appears as the opressors and discriminators weaponizing trans men amd transmascs' masculinity against them.

•Of course, trans men are men and trans women are women, but you cannot just ignore the whole trans prefix. Like it or not none of us is cis (except maybe cistrans people and multigender people with at least one gender they consider cis), so discrimination, opression, how we are treated, etc will NOT look 1:1 to how cis people are treated. Cis feminism does not work for us because we were not accounted for in the patriarchal system, we are all outcasts.

•You cannot just invent a whole category (transmisoginy) for the issues specific to one kind of trans people and leave everyone else with the default transphobia, I think it's fairly obvious to see how that just doesn't work.

•Again, you're misunderstanding the language as I explained above. You are discriminated as trans but also specifically a trans man, not as a man, as a trans man, and as much as a trans man IS a man, it's not the same as a cis man. Cannot let desires of affirmation blind us to the fact the trans part matters and differenciates.

[genderqueerdykes]

How to deal w a longtime friend that at some point became a radfem? I was bad at recognising it back then when there were clear signs and didnt know how to argue, so i stayed passive and argeeable, esp since im a nonbinary guy n shes a (sorta questioning) cis girl.

When i showed discomfort with her doing the "i hate all men" type stuff she's said "omg you're not one of those 'not all men' types" and bc i didnt know at the time i backed off, n she also mentioned how she sees/treats both trans men n cis men the same

I mean ive always felt like she's treated me that way, or that i felt like i needed to stay silent or had more priviledge when around her, despite being pre-everything and pr much closeted in my everyday life, or felt more like i was a binary man around her when im not

She has also been sorta weirdly sex/kink negative or made fun of it, for some time i figured that it was just a bit bc of her being sex repulsed n her being immature, but i still felt sorta more ashamed regarding my kinkiness/sexuality around her when not (were both on the aroace spectrum, though i figured out more recently)

Also parroting radfem rhetoric about "well the sex industry is harmful" (..every capitalistic industry is harmful) and when mentioning kinks/fetishes for some reason often brought up "but what about those kinks where people get off to women starving themselves/having problems w their weight" which is like?? Yea okay if they are doing that to real people thats bad but like what kink/fetish spaces do you hang out in where that would be the first thing you'd bring up??

I also once remember her mentioning that she felt weird about her own connection to masculinity, which i sussed and esp now sus might be due to her being this man-hating

She's told me "you don't have an issue w the 'man vs bear' thing since you're a guy right?" but i didnt feel like arguing at that time so i just agreed and quickly moved onto another subject

Looking back at older texts, she's also said before that im "one of the few men she actually respects"

I've realised how harmful and bull radfem rhetoric is now, n i want to keep a distance from her, but idk how to deal w it bc ive always been the more agreeable and peace-keeping one between us

i'm so sorry you had to go through this. radfems are possessive of the identities of everyone around them to the point of coming up with the most asinine bullshit to make other people feel insecure and question themselves and just go along with whatever the hell they're saying. it's toxic and abusive.

whenever i talk about transmasculine and trans male issues, i get those "oh you're one of those not all men types" as well. it's such a useless thing to say. like if the thing you're opposing is people making blanket statements about women and being treated like a monolith, why are you doing it to someone else? that's the example you're setting, but yet you expect different treatment? double standard.

the sex & kink negativity in radfeminism is exhausting, too. it's not progressive. a lot of people choose to go into sex work and enjoy it. some don't mind it. some are okay with that being their job. a lot of people are exploited, but not everyone is. like you said, it's the capitalist corruption of these industry that causes problems. like you said, people instantly jump to the worst possible conclusion when the subject of kink comes up

the normal song and dance is "men who are into BDSM are only straight guys who are misogynistic and want to beat women. women who are into BDSM are scared and confused and being taken advantage of and are enabling abusive men." they have very few arguments and they're all so far out of left field that it's not relevant to the type of conversation you're having in that moment. making blanket statements about all kinky people being abusive in some way... that's profiling.

at this point its your choice if you continue to interact with her. if you do, you are allowed to stand your ground and tell her that those kinds of things make you very uncomfortable and that it's just not okay. if she can't handle that, then it's not your job to try to change her mind. if she cares about you, she'll treat you with respect. i hope that's the case, but you don't owe time or energy to people who treat you like garbage. good luck, stay safe

[ihavenomouthandimustmouth]

I think the “girls transition to be men because it’s easier” thing is wild. Like yeah, it’s easier to be a cis man than a cis woman. But I am not a cis man. Although I would not go back, at no point has presenting as a transmasculine person in society been easier than presenting as a cis woman in society (for me, at least). I did not get to “escape” misogyny when I came out—it’s been all the same misogyny with added transphobia and cissexism. If not for my internal feelings about my gender identity and dysphoria, it would be significantly easier for me to have continued identifying as a cis woman.

[tache-noire]

gc2b is bad BECAUSE of the rigid front panel. it's DANGEROUS. I have a nb cousin I spoke to at the family christmas party this year, and they told me they had just bought a gc2b binder and yes, it makes their chest flat. but they also CAN'T BREATHE. That rigid front panel is the reason you don't use tape and bandages to bind-- you NEED stretch because your ribcage needs to expand so that you can breathe. You need stretch so that the rest of your body can bend and move without looking like you have a piece of cardboard under your clothes.

GC2B goes as far as to say that their binders are safe to exercise and even swim in, and that's a complete crock of shit that's going to get people hurt. My cousin nearly fainted in PE because they couldn't breathe in it.

And my cousin is very thin. you are COMPLETELY fucked if you're wearing anything above a large. I just bought one of their half binders, put it on, and immediately put it back in the bag to return it. Like most clothing manufacturers, GC2B doesn't actually put any thought or effort into creating plus sized options, there's no consideration for how larger bodies are built and shaped and most importantly, how gravity affects them. What happens when you take your standard size-- made for a medium with, say, C-cup breasts-- and just scale it up width-wise and call it a day? Every fat person with large breasts than hang lower has them spill out the bottom of the binder. The only way to counteract this is to push them up higher-- which completely defeats the purpose because it gives you noticable cleavage and a mono-boob. Not to mention, the extra fat and skin spills out of the arm holes and chafes, and you get dog-earing from that rigid, no-stretch panel in the front. And as soon as you move around even a little bit, your breasts will fall right back down, and you'll have to shove your hand up under your shirt to put them back.

And of course, the vast majority of fat people are not shaped like flat featureless cylinders. That's the shape you'll get from that rigid panel, it looks fucking weird and everyone can tell you're wearing some kind of shapewear.

You know what I've worn for over three years, gone to concerts in, gone to the gym in, ridden a bike, jumped around, lifted weights in and even SLEPT in extremely comfortably, all with an extremely masculine silhouette?

An underworks binder. I had issues with my old one riding up too-- because I bought one of their classic ones that was a size too small, and refused to replace it because I figured smaller = binds better. It doesn't, it's just uncomfortable. If you get a binder and it rolls up, get a larger size.

My tip top recommendation is their cotton binders. They only come in black and white, but like I said, they're so comfortable you can sleep in them. I have one that's actually a size larger than I need, because I was worried about it being uncomfortable, and it binds perfectly. I'm a fat man, even if I was cis, I'd have tits. I still have a little bit of tit in this binder, but it's a masculine amount for my size. And more importantly (for me personally), it hugs my belly into a taut, round shape, which is more masculine-looking than the very soft loose fat I have naturally. (cis men generally develop hard abdominal fat more easily)

Underworks has been in the business of masculine shapewear for DECADES. Their entire business is built on reducing gynecomastia. They know what they're doing. They know what cis men want to see and what they consider gender-affirming for their bodies, and there's no difference between that and what will help trans men pass.

the sad thing is, I can find good reviews for GC2B from several years ago. The bad ones are relatively new. They USED to be good, and it seems that their quality has taken a nosedive.

edit: also, underworks cotton binders are literally the same damn price as GC2B's bullshit. You're not even getting a better deal or anything.

edit 2: forgot to mention, the only way i was able to get the half binder to fit even remotely well was to put it on backwards.

i know people rag on gc2b but. i don't really get why? i have like 5 underworks binders of various size and model and none of them bind well on me and roll up constantly. gc2b requires adjustment every now and then but that's normal for any garment. but binders with a stiffened front panel are binding, all stretch with no solid panel just acts like a shitty sports bra. i don't get it. half convinced people just say shit because they got One with mid stitching and decided all of their product must be just like that, and that underworks must have superior binding because they make things for cis men. which i don't think is true for comfort or binding.

I don't honestly know either- I haven't bought a binder for about 3 years and before that for another 3 or 4, so I can only say that it was a recent development that I see people complaining about the quality of gc2b. They've always worked for me but yes, they do fall apart after a while. When I started binding, it was a known thing that you would be replacing your binder yearly, and maybe if you took very good care of your binder you could get away with every 2-3, with specific care notes on how to make your binders last longer. It does make me wonder if somewhere we lost track of that.

I do know some of the people complaining about gc2b are well outside of the sizes the company makes their clothes in. This is a fair complaint in my mind because I am not a particularly big person (and my doctor called me obese at my last weight check due to BMI) and I am already in the XXL/XXXL range. I do think that a restructuring of sizing and also offering larger sizing should happen. And I again wonder if that is part of the problem- people squeezing themselves into a binder that is inherently too small for them is absolutely going to wear that binder out way quicker.

Another complaint I've seen is that they don't bind well enough for the particularly well endowed. I have fairly medium sized breasts myself so I can't speak to that on personal experience, but I do have a friend who is at the top end of gc2b's range who has breasts that are both larger and saggier than mine and he is quite satisfied with his binding experience. That being said, anyone larger than him would be SOL, so again, it does sound like there is a significant sizing problem.

I do have a friend who prefers the old style of underworks which had a binding front panel the full length of the garment, which has since been deemed unsafe and discontinued en mass for most binder companies. He had a dysphoria related panic attack meltdown the first time he put on a gc2b because the front panel being only chest-length felt far too much like a bra to him. He has fairly significant chest dysphoria and he also has been binding since he started growing breasts during puberty, and is significantly older than me, so I've long chalked that up to different world and dysphoria. He has since gotten used to the gc2b style and still wears them, but it was quite startling for him.

If I weren't having top surgery hopefully soon, I would still be buying gc2b, and when I buy binders for trans guys starting out I buy from that company unless they tell me a different company preference. Like I offered to buy someone a shapeshifters a few months ago because he was saying that he wouldn't fit a gc2b and wanted to bind and had a specific binder in mind. But otherwise if someone who I know fits in their size range asks, I still refer people to that company, because I and my friends have not had problems.

[prolibytherium]

Just in general I think trying to look to pre-late modern period history for validation of LGBT+ identities is an absolutely useless venture. Every single underlying human experience defined through the lens and framework of LGBT identity has always existed, but it's impossible to pin down Exactly who and what a figure might have been if they existed in this contemporary context and decided to self identify via these labels.

It's also a wildly reductive lens that flattens the complexity and variety of how sex and gender has been constructed across time in different cultures, how sexual norms have varied, etc. This is not a constructive approach to learn about history and you're never going to be able to fit historical figures neatly into little identity categories.

[butch-bakugo]

Its not a shock to me that most "transandrophobia doesn't exist" people are trans women, mostly white trans women. They have a very specific image of what a trans man looks like and it's only two categories: the hyper fem, tits out, make up, twink trans man who doesn't pass nor try to and the hyper masculine, bearded, t'd up, all the surgeries, big buff trans man who you could never clock. They genuinely think every "transandrophobia truther" is lieing about not getting privileges they don't fucking have.

They genuinely believe every trans man passes and therefore we get male privilege and they get backed up by trans men who do pass and think a cis man making rape jokes with them and asking about their lift set is male privilege. Lemme shatter the illusion because as much as you like to scream about some wide spread privilege that doesn't exist, most trans people, in general, do not pass. This is especially true for trans men due to the hyperfocus society puts on feminine features. I have never met a fully passing trans man and I've met over a hundred personally irl. never. I know they exist but the fact y'all think we, en masse, get male privilege is factually just fucking wrong.

Trans men are not more acceptable or palatable to transphobes. Trans men are not more likely to pass. Trans men in mass do not get male privilege by virtue of our lack of passing and our medical history. Most trans men are still affected by the gender pay gap and thus can not afford surgeries.

You do not acknowledge the existence of non-passing trans men, only uphold the voices of trans men who pass and have the money for surgeries (a small percentage) then wonder why trans men laugh in your face when you make claims about male privilege we do not experience.

We are more likely to be conversionally raped than you. We are more like to be forcibly detransioned than you. We are more likely to experience domestic violence than you. We are more likely to experience hate crimes than you.

Trans men's hyper visibility in online spaces dose not transfer to real life visibility. You are more likely to see white cis gay men and white trans women in any media or ever mentioned than even white cis lesbians or white trans men. Your rhetoric is the origin of the "theyfab" myth. Our issues are invisible to you cause you do not care about other trans people besides yourself and other transfems. Everyone and their trans mother knows about transmysogny and the issues you personally face yet you expect trans men to be silent about their issues and feel like they should be silent because they are men. Trans men are more likely to experience litterally all forms of violence over trans women in every single avenue of violence that exists; religious, sexual, domestic, familial, etc. We are more likely to be stopped and abused before we socially transtion than anyone else due to hyper vigilance of society over afabs. You can scream all you'd like about how we only bring up our sex/the gender we are often raised as when it's convenient but you always ignore those often traumatizing experiences when it's convenient for you.

Many Transmascs and trans men had a traumatizing upbringing because society views us as "bad women" and " bad women" get treated so much worse and by many more angles than "bad men" specifically because we were forcibly assigned as women. You take advantage of a lack of nuance in the community by trying to group us with cis men specifically because you group yourself with cis women. News flash, neither of us and our experiences should be grouped with ANY cis group because we do not have cisgendered experiences.

I seriously think you think you are the most oppressed group in the trans community and you are not, not by a long shot. You are not the most oppressed group in the transgender community and that's a statistical fact. The most oppressed group, by far, are two spirits and cultural genders by virtue of them being inherently indigenous and indigenous people being the most oppressed race of people in the community regardless of the location they are indigenous to.

You are literally taking advantage of the things that were drilled into transmascs at a young age to be seen and not heard and to be quiet and let others talk, that they are lesser than everyone. Everyday there's a new story in the community of a cis man or a trans woman getting a trans man/masc pregnant to hurt them or force them off t or to detransion, this is not a fucking accident. You are not men, no one ever said you were, but you sure love to silence them like they do.

I'm not quiet, you do not intimately know our issues the same way we do not intimately know yours, You don't get to tell us what we do and don't experience and the fact you'd rather cry wolf and suspiciously call us "bitches" than hear us out, tells me everything i need to know. That alt right to trans woman pipeline you said you escaped? Yeah, you didn't. Ur just an alt right trans woman, Try Again.

[feline-evil]

Dick or no dick confirmation Pickles was always going to be trans to me anyways; if he's swingin' somethin that's phallo babes, if he's not then his t-dick fat. What's not to get.

[loveguts]

i’m not a transandrophobia truther in the slightest don’t get me wrong, but i think some people on here really need to realize and comprehend the fact that cis women, way WAY more often than not, hold extremely significant social and political power over trans men the vast majority of the time in our day to day lives

[floralovebot]

why do people think he was meant to be a woman? helia’s design was very clearly based off shojo anime love interests à la tuxedo mask (although i strongly believe the main inspiration for his design was actually goemon ishikawa from lupin iii lol)

exactly!!! the entire "mysterious pretty long haired boy who is gentle but can still fight for you" is lifted directly from shojo anime like ajdkajdg personally, i think he was inspired by hotohori from fushigi yuugi !! (at least in terms of visuals,, ajhgl) (it's extra funny to me cause there's an entire joke about hotohori being so beautiful that everyone thinks he's a woman aldjhg) (also helia's initial design being red instead like... bro.....)

look at this bitch!!! they stole his hair!!!

anyway this rumor is so dumb too like it's been around for Years (i remember being ten looking at forum posts about this) but no one has ever found proof or even implications. no one from rainbow has ever confirmed this. years ago, someone probably said something along the lines of "helia is so feminine i wonder if he was meant to be a girl at first" and everyone else just fucking ran with it.

i know at one point the popular rumor was that rainbow wanted to introduce two new winx members (aka aisha and helia) but decided that would be too much and just went with aisha instead and made helia a boy. which like. cmon aldhg

but it's just SO so bad like it's literally just white people going "oh wow long hair into art And poetry??? WOMAN" it's like ?? the fans who think they're being progressive for this too like ajdhglda you are Literally just doing gender stereotypes. that's what you're doing here. you saw a man with long hair and a quiet personality and went "aha! i have discovered that you are secretly a woman!" like. buddy. you sound like a right wing lugnut yelling about "we can always tell" like BOOOOOO

again i really do think a good test is if you can't see any of the other specialists (especially brandon and sky) as women or as trans men then you shouldn't headcanon helia like that. if you can't see white muscular men as "feminine" in any way, then you shouldn't be doing that to helia. (anyway woman!sky my beloved) (someone ask me about sky secretly being a girl au NOW) (LESBIAN SKOOM LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOO)

anyway i'm starting a new rumor: tecna was actually supposed to be a boy specialist but they didn't want two nerds in the group so they made him a girl and put her in the winx instead. you can still see clear masculine elements in her design like her short hair, brutish personality, and interest in technology. things we all know women would never have. follow for more fun winx club facts!!!!

(that's how stupid ignorant and frankly misogynistic you all sound when making your helia was clearly a woman posts fuck you fuck you fuck you)

[snekdood]

i think im allowed to assume someones consuming their kinks in a harmful-to-others way if I have first hand experience with them sexually abusing me, personally.

[perilegs]

it's funny that now that i don't really have much about my body to be dysphoric about my brain makes up psychological dysphoria and it's so dumb

[wild-at-mind]

If you ever see me becoming one of those transmisandry people, please fucking call me out immediately.

[oysterie]

i do acknowledge i need to watch what i say wrt gender women men cis ppl etc just augh.

[meyerlansky]

i have a lot of trouble relating to the common narratives of the transmasc experience for reasons i find hard to articulate but, as i'm trying to tease out 20-25 years later, i think have to do with being rejected from masculinity by boys as a kid

which isn't to say that girls my age were any more welcoming or forgiving of me being bad at girlhood, because trust me they were NOT. but, i don't know, somehow "you're still one of us, just bad at it" and the resulting isolation from girls impacted me less than "stop trying to be one of us, you never will be" and the resulting isolation from boys

in adulthood, cis men don't interact with me now that i present more masculine either. [more masculine, not purely masc, because cis people cannot see past how i'm shaped. that's a whole other rant.] cis women interact with me way more than cis girls did, though. and i find that that "you're still a girl, just bad at it" feeling isn't so much there with cis women in adulthood—it feels like my cis female friends are way more comfortable with the fact that i'm not what they are than cis dudes who i TRY to become friends with but still feel that "you're NOT like me" feeling with. despite me being much more masculine, much more "man"-like, and not necessarily in all good ways, than the majority of the people i interact with.

i don't know. none of it should matter because the people who will get it will get it, but it really feels like that's... no one. just like when i was a kid.

[transzilla]

Personally i've been obsessed with scary, female and feminine phallic energy actually. Like I transitioned to male thinking I could take some of that  male power for myself, and whew jesus christ some of the shit I saw... For me womanhood has been used against me as a bludgeoning weapon but Never could I have imagined how femaleness and femininity could be used for incredible power and dominance. Both by women and feminine men. So much for harmless soft feminine energy. That's ftm rapists and abusers trying to make themselves seem soft and like women so people can't believe they could ever hurt someone. That's people using femininity and softness to control me, make me wear dresses so I'd minimize my legs and stop moving, poison all joy i could have possibly gotten from being a woman so I can't even hear my own name without flinching. That's other fucking trans men trying to lie and mislead and make me seem transfem within the lgbt community to villainize me. That's multiple of my stepmothers coming into my home, literally in evil phallic man style like in all the pretentious lit analysis, and taking all refuge and safety of my family from me. And not only for evil, like that's "playing the woman card" to get out of speeding tickets. That's trans women pioneering drag and finding ways to learn and adapt and exist in a world that seems to betray you no matter where you go, taking psychedelics and smoking mad weed and becoming incredible musicians and programmers, finding ways to be comfortable and thrive and be beautiful as a woman, like that takes incredible fucking strength that I'd say a lot of cis people don't have in them. That's hiding behind the moronic brute force of men, that's sheer resourcefulness and ambition finding and reclaiming your own power in a world that fixed to take it from you. Like goddamn.