#captain america: civil war critical

[lokigodofaces]

Rewatching Captain America: Civil War (obligatory on December 16), and it's making me wonder just how much of the encrypted files Natasha leaked have actually been unencrypted and are known. I'm not just talking about the public, I understand that there's a lot they won't know. There's still stuff that would be classified, it just went to different agencies. But seriously it seems like no one has tried to unecrypt anything other than Zemo. You would think that the CIA, UN, and Avengers would have those files and know what happened.

The line that made me think about this was Vision's whole thing about the Avengers causing conflict and more things happening ever since Tony became Iron Man. But that is completely untrue! It is true that the public has been made aware of more and more stuff since Tony announced he is Iron Man. Not necessarily the fault of the Avengers in most cases (Tony did choose to announce he is Iron Man, but it's not like any of them had control over Loki deciding to attack New York for example). But we know of tons of wild things that have been happening on Earth. Just from what we know has been shown or mentioned (no particular order):

(*=should be recorded in S.H.I.E.L.D. files, ATCU files, or other agencies should be aware; **=at least some information should be known, ie. S.H.I.E.L.D. maybe knew an unidentified object entered the atmosphere and left but don't know anything about Peter Quill)

Kree and Skrulls on Earth in Captain Marvel*

Kree attacking Carol and kidnapping her*

Kree experimenting on humans thousand of years ago to make Inhumans*

One of those Inhumans, Hive, being exiled from Earth*

Inhumans living for all of those thousands of years and creating their own society to stay secret*

Kree body found by S.H.I.E.L.D. and used to bring dead agents back to life. When those agents went insane, their memories were wiped and they were given new identities*

Hydra has existed ever since Hive was exiled and tried for centuries to bring him back to Earth*

A head of Hydra found a Diviner and experimented on its destructive tendencies towards humans**

Hank Pym and Janet van Dyne went on missions in the late 1900s*

Peter Quill was kidnapped**

Ego visited Earth

Centipede had been experimenting with robotic parts/super soldier serum since the 1990s*

Kree built an Inhuman temple under Puerto Rico, recently was fought over by S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hydra, and two Inhumans went through terrigenesis**

Ava Starr became enhanced because of an explosion*

I don't remember why the Lighthouse was built, but it was to house people in case of a freak accident S.H.I.E.L.D. was able to stop*

Antimatter asteroid that landed in ocean near Florida mentioned by Coulson*

Everything with the Red Room (known at the time, it wasn't known that Dreykov and the program survived)*

Black Panthers in Wakanda

Egyptian gods and their avatars

The guy that was obsessed with Coulson's love interest got his powers*

Several people were put on the Index for decades before Iron Man*

May fought two Inhumans in Bahrain**

S.H.I.E.L.D. fought several rogue Inhumans from Afterlife**

Terrigen had been dumped into the ecosystem and several people are going through terrigenesis*

Asgardians, Jotuns, etc have been going to Earth for a long time*

Sorcerers at Kamar Taj have been around forever

Probably more that I'm forgetting

But you get my point. A lot of this stuff was recorded by S.H.I.E.L.D., yet everyone in the UN, CIA, even some of the Avengers think things only went crazy when they came around. That is so unbelievably untrue. So has no one done anything about those files Natasha leaked other than double check about Hydra being around?

[captainwidowspring]

An excerpt from my Captain America music paper, for I just made a seriously disgusting discovery:

"The other appearance of the breaking-up-of-the-Avengers theme is during the Siberia fight, where it is played twice. The first time it plays is when Friday tells Tony, “You can’t beat [Steve] hand to hand,” and it continues as Tony tells Friday to analyze his fight pattern and she does it, up until Friday says, “Countermeasures ready,” and Tony grabs Steve’s shield. The second time it plays is shortly after Steve disables Tony’s suit, and shortly before Steve, exhausted and injured, slides off Tony’s suit and onto the ground; this plays until Steve helps Bucky off the ground and starts to walk away with him. Now, as the previous use of the Avengers-breakup theme helps show that Civil War was more of an Avengers movie than a Cap movie, this use actually happens to show how the film is more of an Iron Man movie than either of those other two. For considering that the theme was obviously meant to have the most impact after Steve broke the arc reactor, the fact that it first shows up a little before then is quite notable: and when exactly it shows up is very revealing. It first appears when Tony does not exactly have the upper hand (though Steve is doing no damage despite pummeling Tony’s suit), but then it stops when Friday allows Tony to get the upper hand over Steve and seriously hurt him, and then it resumes again when Steve is able to thwart Tony and disable his suit.

Such use of the music that symbolizes the Avengers team splintering seems to be the movie implying that if Tony had won the fight, whatever fracture the Avengers were experiencing would be less severe, but it is solidified now that Steve won the fight. Now, this is very much not true, as the entire Siberia fight was literally Tony trying to kill Bucky because he was upset, while Bucky tried to avoid this and Steve defended Bucky: and while Tony did some really despicable things throughout the movie, successfully killing Bucky and/or Steve while he was having a temper tantrum is something he would never be able to come back from. But considering the lengths the movie went to to try to make it seem like Tony was justified in doing this and not acting monstrously, it is not surprising that these fraudulent efforts extended to the music. And curiously, the Avengers-breakup theme does not play when Tony provokes Steve into dropping the shield, even though that is much more symbolic of the Avengers breaking up than Steve preventing Tony from killing him and Bucky. But that, too, might have painted Tony in a bad light, and the movie avoided such a thing at all costs. Civil War is seriously messed up."

Truly, the more one examines this mockery of a Captain America film, the more it becomes clear just how thoroughly rotten this movie is, and how it is most definitely not Cap 3.

[ironspidersblog]

Tony: hey so I’m really upset you kept the secret of my parents death and their killer from me. I get he’s your friend but I would’ve just liked to of known

Cap:

[musclesandhammering]

On Narrative Bias

I keep saying it annoys me how Wanda has done so many evil ass things and is never held accountable for her actions, and it never fails that someone tries to respond with “but aren’t you a loki stan? He’s done evil shit too! So you have a double standard and are a misogynist!!!!” Yeah, no. The difference is that you can clearly tell who the writers have predetermined as a hero vs a villain. You can tell who they want you to root for. Loki’s actions are given narrative consequences as harsh as possible, while Wanda’s are narratively excused and softened and sympathised. Let me show you what I mean.

* Loki commits treasons, tries to kill his brother & attempts genocide -> Loki’s father rejects him while he attempts suicide

* Loki tries to conquer earth -> Loki is sentenced to life in prison

* Loki incapacitates the king and secretly takes the throne -> Loki is threatened with a hammer to the face, we’re reminded how awful he is by all the other characters for the rest of the movie & he would’ve faced more consequences if the apocalypse hadn’t interrupted

* Loki steals the tesseract from the vault -> Loki watches his brother be tortured & then has his neck snapped

Now compare that to…

* Wanda willingly signs up to work for a nazi organisation, tries to help an evil robot murder the avengers, intentionally sets the hulk loose on a town of innocent people, & helps destroy Sokovia for a lil while -> Wanda gets a fatherly pep talk from Clint & is immediately accepted as an Avenger

* Wanda accidentally murders a bunch of people while on a mission -> Wanda is put on temporary house arrest in a giant mansion with her boyfriend

* Wanda buries her boyfriend/teammate under like 10 floors of concrete, breaks out of house arrest, & goes against a government order -> the leader of the superhero team defends her, a grown ass woman, by saying “She’s just a kid!”, she’s detained in a government prison for like a week maybe (?) during which she’s shown as a sad helpless victim to encourage sympathy from viewers, & then she gets busted out by the ex-team leader & eventually gets to run off to Scotland with her boyfriend

* Wanda holds an entire town hostage & tortures them just to fulfil her own grief-fuelled fantasy -> one of the women Wanda attacked reassures her that she’s the actual victim in all this and that the people she tortured just have no idea what she’s sacrificed for them & she escapes to an isolated location to read a forbidden demon book and make herself more powerful without anyone interfering

* Wanda goes on a serial killing spree across the multiverse, kidnaps a child, holds her hostage, tortures her, & attempts to take her powers all so she can steal another Wanda’s children because she misses her children that were never actually real in the first place -> Wanda gets some badass power sequences and #girlboss one liners, is the one that destroys the demon book, essentially saving the multiverse from future corruption, & is allowed to die a hero’s death (which we all know isn’t permanent)

See the difference?

[weregonnabecoolbeans]

By the way I am on both sides at the end of CA: Civil War.

I can understand Tony in the moment losing his mind over the winter soldier having killed his parents.

But like, I also think it’s insane that he thought his “friendship” with Steve is even remotely close to the same level as his with Bucky.

And also Bucky was innocent so…

[hersheysmcboom]

Am I the only one who’s starting to think Tony stark has become a plot vortex

[this-is-chaos-magick]

Hi I am rambling about that red magic lady again sorry for the bad English

I can't stop thinking about Wanda and the. 'Lagos incident'

Like she's trying to save people...and yes she did... She saved those People who are on the ground, she saved Steve...she literally saves so many people that day and People still blame her for the incident....Brock Rumlow is the one carrying the bomb, Rumlow is the one who detonated the bomb....yet people blame it on her because of an accident, she did not mean to throw that bomb on the building she's trying to throw it in the sky...I mean the whole place is surrounded by people....where the hell did people expecting her to throw it? And also the bomb exploded already on the ground when Rumlow pressed the button... it's a miracle that she caught it... Do you people really think that she would throw a bomb in a building full of people?? did y'all see how she reacted after that happened?

God...her reaction when it exploded she must've felt so horrible that day, she try to do a good thing and she messed up...

I hate the fact that people blame Wanda on the 'Lagos incident' when it's Rumlow's fault...it makes me so sad that Wanda just accepted it...RAhHHhhhHh I am just so irritated...she did a good thing that day...she SAVES LIVES she did that with good intent.. It pissed me off that people put Lagos in the "horrible" things Wanda had done it pissed me off when people used Lagos 'prove' that Wanda is a 'bad' person..I fucking hate it when people acts like it's Wanda's fault that Bomb exploded I m gonna bite people I am gonna bite Thaddeus Ross I am gonna bite everyone that believe that Wanda did that with bad intention

[therese-lokidottir]

Btw why every single fan fiction I seeing (not all but many) is Tony stans? I meant they always put Tony in good light and 'oh poor baby' and worst of it they make other characters be worst and top of it is steve

Now, everyone have free will to writing what they want but come on, it's getting annoying. Specially it's so clear Tony is never good person, sure he have his good moments but the rest? He not nice to he so called close friends and lover

And Steve? Please just because he is a soldier didn't meant he is bad, I meant sure American soldiers and soldiers generally have bad reputation, but Steven prove it he more just a soldier, he is a man.

Also it's kind bothering me while this issue never been showing it but Steve is quite religius person and Tony is atheist. And now I am no want make some kind hateful comments but I feel little bit got insulted by it.

I meant if you have religion didn't make you good person but well they make Steve like that and hate him sound like imply something

I don't think Tony Stark is bad. I think he is a wonderfully complex character when written well when written within his film series. But then Civil War happened and then the MCU Spider-Man movies had to make the choices that they made.

In the original Iron Man film Tony is egotistical, he is selfish and he is a complete mess but he is still a man with a heart. He is genuinely remorseful for what his weapons have done and he wants to change and do good. Tony is a man who struggles with his ego and with being vulnerable. He has trouble letting down those walls even to his best friends who have stood by him through so much, he's still scared.

In the Iron Man films, those were flaws Tony needed to learn from. Tony needed to learn and grow and you do see that. But then CA: CW didn't quite get that. Tony does have compassion, he does have sympathy for people. But in CA: CW it's more about guilt than it is about responsibility and self-reflection. He gets called out but some mom, but was this not something Tony Stark was struggling with? Was he not already giving to the relief efforts?

People can argue that Steve was doing wrong things in CA: CW, he was breaking laws regardless of the accords, but Tony consciously does things that question if the accords have any legitimacy in the first place. He uses an untrained 15-year-old for backup without giving them full details of the situation and lying to their legal guardian. Tony's team initiates the fight and causes collateral damage because he's permitted to do so. Lastly, he ends up snapping and trying to murder someone and he never has to face repercussions for that, legal ones I mean. He's pushing for the accords while it's clear he doesn't have to abide by why they are supposed to be there.

Contrasting all that to Steve desperately trying to help his friend, consoles someone facing eminence guilt, and allows others to leave without judgment while giving them the full story, does make Steve seem a lot nicer and more human. Bucky was brainwashed, abused, and used by Hydra and the reason they could do that was because Howard Stark used Hydra members to build S.H.I.E.L.D. All because he thought it was acceptable to for the sake of protecting the world.

The problem with Tony's "mentorship" of Peter is he treats Peter more like a project than someone who is their own independent person he's meant to be guiding and pointing in the right direction. Of course, there is the metatextual problem of shifting from billionaires the bad guys to working-class bad guys in the franchise about the hero who is usually the working-class street-level hero.

The MCU really seemed to forget Tony was an ass he needed to be better. He ends up never learning and the MCU seemed to forget Tony's ego was both bad and annoying, and also kind of a coping mechanism and cover Tony was using to deal with his issues.

[sea-owl]

So I'm rewatching the Marvel movies and I just finished Captain America: civil war and I was wondering about you opinion of the movie?

Oh that can of worms. Okay before I start know this is just my opinion and that's okay if your's differ from mine. Just be respectful or you will get the block button.

So my opinion on Civil War, short answer, I deeply dislike it and will never watch it on my own free will again. The only saving grace for me with that movie is the good angst hut/comfort fics the fandom has written after.

Long answer I don't like it for many reasons, narratively being a big part of it actually. I believe the MCU jumped the gun for Civil War. They put it in too soon without doing the work for all the needed buildup for it. I believe they chose the wrong directors for this movie and I 100% believe this should not have been a Captain America movie.

In my opinion this movie was made too soon. One of the core plot points for Civil War in any rendition is that it's a break up between two people that is so bad and so strong it divides an entire community. Those two people for Civil War is Steve and Tony, which the MCU had neglected working up their relationship to pull Civil War that soon. The outside conflict was there, you could see the outside tension rising with each moving but the dynamics of Steve and Tony, hell all of the Avengers was not. Had they wanted to do this in the time frame they did there needed to be crossovers from the two characters into each other's franchise. The audience needed to see them actually liking each other and the movies building up on that and the other Avengers' relationships as a team. Hell even a mini series that connected to the movies to give us those bonding moments would have helped.

Like many others I also believe this should never have been a Captain America movie, it should have been an Avengers movie. Right off the bat it's gonna try to frame Steve in the right which no. If you want to pull this divide off you need to have the narrative neutral or both Steve and Tony need to be right and wrong. They are both two sides to this fight, and personally both should be held accountable to what happens during and after. Which leads me into the directors, the Russo brothers should not have been the directors. By their own admittance they do not like Tony, they are Cap fanboys, and had they had their way Tony would have died in this movie. This type of plot is not meant for a singular franchise character it is an ensemble plot, and you would need a director who knows how to work an ensemble cast and in my own opinion neutral to both sides. Neither Steve or Tony should have been framed as all the way right or all the way wrong. The politics to this movie is actually very complicated without even adding on the whole Bucky side plot.

Speaking of the side plot, it felt kinda unnecessary and was added for Steve's pain/a way to tie up his brainwashing healing (at least the commands) in a nice little bow. I always say Bucky came back too soon and I still hold that belief. Should've kept him a shadow for a while and maybe saved him for Sam. Sam's cap arch is already doing more for Bucky's character than Steve's ever did.

And since I know this will probably be a follow up question, my opinion on the Accords is that I'm pretty neutral. Yes as they stood amendments were defiantly needed for it, but also the Avengers really had no accountability. The group that was supposed to hold them accountable, SHIELD, was gone. In the eyes of the public they were a loose canon. I don't blame other countries not wanting this American based military like group coming into my home, fucking shit up, and then dipping out. The whole situation needed compromise, but since this is Steve's movie and Steve doesn't know compromise if it bit him in the ass it's not framed that way. Despite the fact we have whole scene in the movie where Steve was proving these people's fears right.

What do I know though, I think the movie is a mess and if I had my way I'll never watch it again.

[originaljediinjeans]

A LOOOOONG TIME AGO just after Captain America Civil War came out, I wrote up this piece. I was thinking about the Winter Soldier's trigger words. And it just soooo happens that I'd studied enough about magic/witchcraft in college (esp from a medieval Western European perspective) that the trigger words gave me similar vibes. (the link to my term paper doesn't work, sorry). Anyway, it serves as an explanation for why the trigger words were so horrifying.

In the intervening years, Marvel Studios has demonstrated that the trigger words were mostly a gimmick for Civil War and they don't really care about Bucky. They never really cared about developing meaningful themes around the characters or stories they were sharing as fan service (or at least themes that don't serve the current political agenda, don't get me started). So yeah, I WAS reading a lot into it.

Buuuut that doesn't mean we as fans can't do something with the trigger words being based on witchcraft. Maybe writing an AU for Bucky's healing that actually works as a kind of counter-magic with that idea could be viable direction.

This is one of those concepts that I'd love to do a master's thesis on if I went to grad school. I would like to study the Eastern European/Russian perspective on magic/witchcraft and see if it supports my theory.

[captainwidowspring]

On Nico's Ability to Defend Himself

An often-overlooked aspect of Nico's death scene in TFATWS is that there was literally nothing preventing him from thwarting John's attempt to kill him, and keeping it from being a death scene; he just didn't so that there would be a reason for the Captain America title to be stripped from John and given back to Sam. I feel like a major reason why a lot of people don't pick up on this fact, and instead perceive Nico to be defenseless (aside, of course, from the shamelessly manipulative framing) is that in the Siberia incident, the incident Nico's death scene is frequently compared to, Tony, after he lost the upper hand, didn't really get a chance to do much before Steve disabled his suit. It thus didn't stick out too badly when Nico also didn't do much before John attacked him with the shield, even though there was a lot more he could have done. Therefore, let's examine the two situations to see how they are different.

This is how the shield incident played out in Siberia. Near the end of the battle, Tony had managed to gain the upper hand and inflict serious damage on Steve. After Steve refused to stop defending Bucky, Tony prepared to straight up blow Steve out of the bunker and down the mountain: but right before he got the repulsor shot off, Bucky grabbed his leg. Irritated, Tony turned and kicked Bucky in the head with his metal boot. Then, before Tony had the chance to do anything else, Steve grabbed Tony and hoisted him into the air; Tony tried to use the jet packs on his boots to get out of the situation, but too much damage had been inflicted on them at that point for them to be of use, and Steve threw him to the ground. Steve then immediately rushed on top of Tony and punched his face mask three times out of sheer fury, after which he broke the helmet by hitting it twice more with his shield and then tore it off. He subsequently raised the shield, which caused Tony to frantically raise his arms to cover his face, and this allowed Steve to have a clear shot at the arc reactor, which he brought his shield down on and broke.

Now, considering how thoroughly biased Civil War is against Steve, and how much it sought to act like he was the one in the wrong—even though the entire Siberia fight was literally just Tony having a temper tantrum and Steve and Bucky trying to survive it—the creative team certainly wouldn't have minded if Tony had cried out in fear like Nico did, as it would be quite useful for the propaganda efforts. Therefore, there is clearly some reason why he didn't.

And it appears that there are two main reasons for this. The first reason seems to be that everything simply happened too fast. Indeed, the entire incident, from Tony preparing to shoot Steve to Steve disabling the arc reactor, took place in the span of about fifteen seconds. And Tony totally wasn't expecting Steve to grab him; presumably, he assumed that Steve was injured enough that taking his attention off him for a few seconds in order to kick his friend in the head wasn't a big deal. He underestimated the strength that poured into Steve's limbs when he saw Tony so callously abusing Bucky, as well as the fact that Steve is a supersoldier, so he can move really fast when he wants to.

So there was the element of surprise, and there was also the fact that Tony probably would have been a little stunned, both from the impact of being thrown to the ground, and from being hit in the head multiple times. It must, of course, be remembered that Tony was wearing a full-body metal suit, so no actual harm was inflicted upon him, but Steve is a supersoldier, so even with the layer of protection the impacts would certainly have been felt. These factors combined to produce the effect that, when Steve raised his shield, rather than take the time to yell anything, Tony simply prepared himself to face what was about to happen, which he thought would be Steve attempting to end him. But fortunately for him, he was wrong. Steve wasn't trying to kill Tony; Bucky was still alive, so Steve was able to contain his fury enough to refrain from a killing blow, and he hit the arc reactor instead.

Now, let's look at how Nico's death scene played out. After John pursued Nico for a bit, and managed to fend off a concrete trash can that Nico threw at him, he was able to hit Nico with the shield as Nico ran into a square. This forced Nico to stop to keep his balance, which allowed John to hit him again, and this finally knocked him over. Nico then tried to get back up twice; the first time John hit him with the shield again to keep him down, and the second time he put his foot on Nico's chest to pin him to the ground and stop his escape attempts. Then, since he couldn't try to get away anymore, Nico waved his hands and nervously insisted, "It wasn't me." He said this because, given the role he played in Lemar's death, he was well aware of why John might be mad at him specifically, for more than just being a friend of Karli. John, for his part, had been preparing to interrogate Nico about Karli's whereabouts, but this clear falsehood evidently filled him with rage, and he raised his shield in a fury. Rather than make an effort to block the imminent attack, Nico simply repeated, louder, "It wasn't me!" even though it was clear that John was not about to accept his garbage. And then, of course, since Nico wasn't about to actually do anything, the beating with the shield commenced.

Nico just lay there and was obediently killed, even though there was literally nothing stopping him from simply catching the shield and keeping it off his chest. His arms and hands were not at all restrained—indeed, he was waving them around—and unlike John, who had acquired a gash on his head, Nico was completely uninjured, so there wouldn't have been any pain distracting him either. And as we saw earlier, Nico is just as strong as John—he was able to restrain John so effectively that Karli would have been able to easily stab John if Lemar hadn't stopped her—and his evident fear would likely have given him enough strength to cancel out John's rage. So he would certainly have been able to keep the shield off his chest until Sam and Bucky, who appeared shortly afterwards, could save him if they wanted to.

Indeed, Nico didn't save himself even though, as evidenced by the fact that he did actually have a chance to cry out, he was dealing with a much less challenging situation than Tony was. For one thing, John bringing down the shield on Nico's chest was not at all a surprise. After John had pinned Nico to the ground, Nico had time to say, "It wasn't me" before John made any sort of move: and after John registered what Nico had said, he shifted his shield, which had been on his arm, into a two-handed grip, and then raised it. Nico clearly saw this coming; indeed, this is what caused him to shout "It wasn't me" a second time. And John's intentions at that point were obvious, so it's not like what happened with Tony where Tony thought that Steve was going to do one thing but he did another; it was pretty clear where John's shield was going, and this would have been plenty apparent to Nico since terror tends to make time slow down. So he had ample time to catch it.

Additionally, Nico would not have been stunned in the way that Tony was. Tony was slammed to the ground and then received five forceful rapid-fire close-range blows to the head, which is several hard impacts in a short span of time. Nico, by contrast, was hit once with the shield, then was knocked by John to the ground. This was a much shorter distance to fall than the overhead bench-press position that Tony was thrown from, and there were even stairs to break Nico's fall. Thereafter, Nico was hit with the shield again—and he hadn't gotten very far up, so he didn't fall very far back down—and then John thwarted Nico's final attempt to get up by pushing him down with his foot. In addition to the fact that the push was much gentler than getting hit with the shield again would have been, as before Nico hadn't gotten very far up, so he wouldn't have hit the ground that hard.

Therefore, in contrast to Tony, who received six sharp blows pretty much back to back, Nico received three fairly spread out blows—after the first hit with the shield, John had to close the distance between them and wind up again before hitting him a second time to knock him over, and then Nico fell to the ground and started to get back up before he was hit a third time—as well as a kind of shove. Nico thus did not receive nearly as harsh a pummeling as Tony did. And on top of that, he is a supersoldier: so even if his treatment had been rougher, Nico would have a much higher tolerance for pummeling than normal human Tony would.

Hence, Nico would not only have had plenty of time to see what John was doing, but he also would not have had to contend with the disorientation that Tony experienced. There is no excuse for why his only reaction to John's attack was yelling.

And here's what makes the fact that Nico didn't try to defend himself even more ridiculous. Even though Steve's attack was much more rapid, forceful, and unpredictable than John's was, Tony STILL did the logical thing and was ready to try to catch Steve's shield. Indeed, you can actually see a bit of strategy in his response to Steve raising the shield. Tony knew he wasn't strong enough to entirely keep the shield off his face since his suit was failing, so rather than try to stop it from hitting him, he was instead planning to try to grab the shield during its descent in order to slow it down and cushion the blow. As Steve brings the shield down, you can even see Tony open his fingers as he expects to encounter the shield. Nico did not do anything of the sort, he just aimlessly shouted as he passively lay there and waited for John to kill him. But come on! If Tony, who was just a normal human encased in a suit of rapidly failing metal, and who had been completely taken by surprise with a harsh walloping, could make an attempt to stop Steve from killing him (even though, as it turned out, he didn't need to), then Nico, who was a supersoldier, and who had received far less of a thrashing, could definitely have tried (and succeeded) to stop John from killing him. Especially since, unlike Tony, he actually would have been able to completely stop the shield from hitting him.

There is another difference between the two situations that is very interesting, however. Tony, for his part, was well aware that he was acting dishonorably. For instance, a little after Tony began his assault, when Bucky was trying to run away and Tony was intent on pursuit, Steve stood in front of him and said, "It wasn't him, Tony. Hydra had control of his mind." But Tony already knew this, so he simply responded "Move," in a way that clearly indicated that he didn't care and didn't want to hear it. And a short time later, when Tony prevented Bucky from escaping, Steve tried again to get through to him and said, "This isn't gonna change what happened," but Tony replied, "I don't care, he killed my mom." Tony knew that Bucky wasn't to blame for his parents' deaths, and that killing him would not help anything: but since he was angry with Steve for refusing to accept the Accords and all their rights-violations, he saw the revelation as an excuse to attack both Bucky because he knew it would hurt Steve, and Steve himself because Tony knew that Steve would not just stand by while Bucky was being assaulted. He ignored Steve's attempts to reason with him because he figured that he had enough power to be able to do whatever he wanted, and he also correctly guessed that Steve and Bucky would continuously hold back against him, even though they shouldn't have. And because of these things, before Bucky's intervention, Tony had been about to do something that could have quite possibly ended Steve's life. So when Steve regained the upper hand and Tony was at his mercy, Tony was aware that he had no right to ask Steve to spare him, because when he had been in Steve's position, he had been ready to potentially end Steve's life without a second thought. Therefore, he said nothing; his only response was to see if he had enough strength left to hold off Steve.

So Tony, in the face of Steve's attack, didn't yell anything because he knew that what he had done was indefensible: and it is due in part to this modicum of contrition that Steve was able to contain his rage enough to spare him. Nico, meanwhile, had been doing something similarly heinous. He had been actively engaged in trying to kill John because John was Captain America, and when Lemar frustrated the attempt on John's life, Nico was also the reason why John was unable to protect Lemar from Karli's subsequent death-blow. And just like Tony, Nico had been relying on his strength to protect him from repercussions. So what he had done was just as indefensible as what Tony did: but instead of taking the smallest bit of ownership of this, he tried to completely absolve himself of responsibility for what had happened, and this resulted in his downfall. For while John had clearly been intending to just interrogate Nico, the fact that the person who had held him helpless while his best friend was murdered was trying to act like he was not at all responsible for what had happened caused him to lose it, and this resulted in the shield incident. Now, Nico definitely should have made it clear that he was surrendering if he intended to, and even apologized if he genuinely regretted what had happened to Lemar: and again, when the attack did happen he could have easily fended it off. But if he had simply recognized the fact that he was not worthy of John's mercy since he had not been prepared to show mercy to John, and remained silent like Tony did, the shield-attack would never have happened in the first place.

But in any case, as mentioned above, Nico didn't try to defend himself because John needed to kill him, so that the show would have an excuse to take the Captain America mantle from John and give it back to Sam without it seeming too dubious. (Though considering that the incident ended up resulting in Sam and Bucky attacking John for the shield a very short time after he literally lost his best friend, the show completely failed at that.) Not to mention, if Nico had put up a fight, this would have highlighted how much he was still capable of threatening John, and put lie to the show's attempt to act like he was helpless. Particularly since, again, if he had tried to save himself there is no reason why he would not have been successful.

Now, it is important to also remember that Nico was definitely not surrendering, the other widespread misconception about his death scene. He kept trying to fight John until he literally couldn't—he threw a concrete trash can at John while he was running away, and tried to get back up twice after John initially knocked him over, which is not something someone who wanted to surrender would do—and then after John had him pinned, all he did was try to disingenuously absolve himself of responsibility for Lemar's death, rather than trying to apologize or making it clear that he was surrendering. But on top of the fact that Nico wasn't trying to surrender, and refused to own up to what he had done, he was perfectly capable of surviving John's attack when it happened. These things make his death scene, as well as the subsequent reaction to it, completely ridiculous and utterly nonsensical.

[rainbowsuitcase]

google when will i grow out of feeling like my friends criticizing my favorite character is a personal attack

[platossoulmates]

i will never understand people who are team iron man in civil war because it is LITERALLY a captain america movie. you are supposed to sympathize with tony stark and the world governments, and understand that yes, reform is needed (which steve UNDERSTANDS and agrees with), but also understand that what they’re enacting is morally wrong. the sokovia accords (much like the mutant registration act in x-men 2000) require the registration AND tracking of all enhanced individuals as well as agreeing to prison without trial should the government decide it necessary (they go into detail about the legislation in the sokovia accords in agents of shield, which, yes, is technically no longer canon, but this aired long before it moves off track of the main marvel timeline, when it was still following canon post winter soldier movie). it strips all inhumans, mutants, people who have been experimented on (all of which is out of these people’s control) of quite literally all of their constitutional rights. tony stark is not in the right just because steve didn’t tell him about his parents. the politics of the movie are so deep please use your critical thinking skills

[ecrivainsolitaire]

The conclusion is probably that Nolan has read Batman comics, which are very similar to Iron Man comics because in the 70s Marvel and DC kept ripping each other off. None of these points are original to the MCU, they all come directly from the comics, and the characters' personalities (Tony Stark is a narcissist who always wants attention while Bruce Wayne is perpetually depressed), values (Tony's main drive is to protect the world from alien invasions while Bruce fights common criminals and the occasional terrorist, aka the enemy within), and ideologies are completely different (MCU Iron Man is center-left libertarian while Nolan's Batman is full conservative propaganda).

This is why historical context and production details are essential in media analysis. No one who knows even a little bit of the history of these universes would ever pay ten bucks to share their conspiracy theory that the MCU ripped off Christopher Nolan.

On Iron Man & Christopher Nolan

You know that these two guys (Chris Nolan and RDJ) are on their way to Oscars right now, right? And I was reflecting recently on the similarities between some of the plots I've seen in Nolan's films and the plots of the MCU films with Tony. Just want to remind you here about some of them:

Batman Begins (2005) & Iron Man (2008): orphans-billionaires start their movies in filthy “sort of prisons” in some distant countries. Both are betrayed by their old friend-mentor. And overall, you all know how similar Tony and Bruce are in some ways.

The Dark Knight (2008) & CA:CW (2016): The Dark Knight speaks to us through the Joker's mouth about codependency of heroes and villains: “I don't, I don't want to kill you! What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO! No. You... you... complete me.” Same tells us Vision in Civil War: “Our very strength incites challenge. Challenge incites conflict. And conflict... breeds catastrophe.”

The Dark Knight Rises (2012) & The Avengers (2012): Smart billionaires with interesting, but dangerous hobbies sacrifice themselves to save a city from a nuke. Both ended up alive. Both are sitting in a restaurant in their final scenes.

Interstellar (2014) & Avengers: Endgame (2019): retired pilots are asked to save humanity. They leave their daughters, travel through time and die/disappear after achieving the goal. Should we wait until Morgan is 80 to see Tony again?

Transcendence (2014, Nolan was an executive producer) & Tony’s arc in general (2008-2019): love the movie, very underrated in my opinion. It’s just an alternative Marvel universe, telling you. An AI scientist with a goatee creates an advanced AI and gets attacked by terrorists. They put a bit of radioactive metal in his body and he slowly dies. His wife, a botanist Maya Hansen, and his friend, Jarvis, help upload his consciousness into a computer. He gains superpowers by being literally deus ex machina. But everything ends tragically, because people don’t understand the scientist and are not ready to change themselves and the world they live in.

Oppenheimer (2023) & Tony’s arc in general (2008-2019): brilliant nuclear physicists create a weapon. Then argue with colleagues and the government to prevent their creation from being used, because they realized how dangerous their creation is, and how irresponsible people are.

No idea what the conclusion is.

[artbyblastweave]

So, something I heard pointed out: Both Marvel and DC, ESPECIALLY the latter love the idea of "legacy heroes". Superheroic identities that are passed on from one person to another, like the many different Robins, Flashes, Spider-Men, ETC. But I think there's a notable lack of superVILLAIN legacies. Am I just looking in the wrong places or is that a real trend and, if so, why, do you think?

Legacy Villains are definitely a thing, albeit to a lesser degree than Legacy Heroes.. At DC there have been at least three Clayfaces and two Captain Boomerangs. At Marvel there have been at least two Beetles, two Electros, at least one would-be successor to Doctor Octopus in the form of Lady Octopus, a slew of goblins (hob or otherwise) Bullseye and Lady Bullseye, three Razor Fists, multiple Titanium men. Actually, according to TvTropes almost every Spider-Man villain you'd recognize has gotten an understudy at least once. This isn't exhaustive by any means but I'm not transcribing everyone I dug up on the TVtropes page for Legacy Character when I can just link the fucking thing. So it's pretty common, but it doesn't hit the same in the popular consciousness- you didn't have it as part of your internal map of the dynamic- because these villains don't headline. At least, they don't do this with the ones who headline. There isn't some critical mass of people who are superfans enough of Max Dillon or Mac Gargan for it to be parade-worthy when they swap them out for some new guy. When they killed Captain America during Civil War, that got in the news. The real life, dead-tree newspaper ran articles about that, because apparently nobody told them how death works in comic books. But do you think any newspaper ran an article when they killed Hobgoblin? I don't even know if they actually killed Hobgoblin or not, I'm just assuming that they must have killed at least one because TvTropes lists about. five or six hobgoblins

[captainwidowspring]

Those were some amazing points you made about Walker being needlessly framed as a bad guy by The Falcon and The Winter Soldier's narrative. It definitely is not unlike Wanda and other members of Team Cap being vilified in Civil War. Morally speaking, I'd say the whole act of Walker bludgeoning Nico is similar to Cap using the shield to disable Tony's suit, right down to the fact that they were using force against someone who still very much posed an active threat (Tony being just a bit more obvious an active threat given how he was actively trying to murder Bucky).

Thank you!

You are definitely right that John using the shield on Nico and Steve using the shield on Tony are both similar in that the shield was being used to subdue an active threat. And funnily enough, another similarity between those two moments is that the shots of Steve and John bringing the shield down on someone below them both served the same purpose: they were both intended to turn the audience against the shield-bearer even though the shield-bearer was not acting unreasonably. This was done by playing up the apparent helplessness of the person who the shield was being used on, despite the fact that both people had come very close to killing their respective shield-bearer, and were still a significant danger to them at the time of the shield's use. Though obviously this manipulation was done with more intensity in John's case, and so was more successful.

Now, due to the fact that Steve and John used the shield in such a similar way, people love to compare the Siberia fight and Nico's death scene: and all too often, people who like Steve but hate John will point to Siberia as an example of why John is not as good a Captain America as Steve. However, the problem with this is that while the actions taken by Steve and John are similar, the circumstances surrounding them are not. Despite the surface-level similarities of the two situations, there are also major differences, so comparing them is really not fair. There are two main reasons why the situations are not directly comparable.

(1) Tony hadn't killed Bucky. He may have blasted Bucky's arm off and then kicked him in the head, but Bucky was still alive, and could recover from this. Thus, while Steve was certainly very angry, he was not filled with the blinding rage and anguish that Bucky's death would have caused.

And we saw how clearly furious Steve was at Tony just injuring Bucky, how it gave him great strength despite his exhaustion and serious injuries: so it's like, if Tony had actually managed to kill Bucky, would Steve have been able to stop at just disabling the suit? If Tony had murdered Bucky and robbed Steve of his best friend, of his longest-running relationship, of the person who had been a heimat (home-place) for as long as he could remember, of the last remaining person who knew Steve before he became Captain America, of the last remaining person who had been with him in the 1940s, after he had literally just gotten all of this back—all while Tony knew full well that Bucky was not to blame for the supposed reason that he had been trying to murder him—would Steve really have been able to control himself enough to spare Tony?

Meanwhile, John had just lost Lemar; Lemar who was his friend who fought beside him, who he trusted with his life, who he probably couldn't imagine his life without, who was one of the few people with whom he could just be John and not Captain America. Unlike Bucky, Lemar wasn't just badly injured, he was completely dead. And Nico might not have been the one to strike the killing blow against Lemar, but he played an active role in the murder, as he is the reason that Lemar had to save John in the first place, and he prevented John from being able to defend Lemar from Karli. So he was definitely not innocent.

Then to add insult to injury, Nico yelled at John, "It wasn't me!" even though he played a major role in Lemar's murder. And Nico being the one to say that would have been particularly insulting to John because he is the one who prevented John from being able to do anything other than watch while Lemar was killed. This is what causes John to lose it and kill him, as if you watch the scene it's clear that John made no move to harm Nico until after he said that. It would be like if Tony killed Bucky and then had the audacity to say, "I didn't mean to!" even though such a claim would be demonstrably not true.

Thus, Steve when he got the upper hand over Tony was not forced to deal with as much emotion as John had to when he got the upper hand over Nico. Tony had merely injured Bucky, not played a part in his murder like Nico had with Lemar, and Tony also did not go on to say something that would salt Steve's wounds, the way Nico did to John when he sought to minimize his role in the incident. So Steve already had a huge advantage over John in that respect.

(2) There was also the fact that Tony is just a normal human. This meant that all Steve had to do was disable the Iron Man suit in order to decisively end the fight. That was obviously not the case for Nico, as since he was a supersoldier, he was just as strong as John and could not so easily be rendered harmless. Indeed, people often seem to conveniently forget that just a few minutes before Nico had been holding John completely helpless, and would have been complicit in his murder had Lemar not stepped in, so Nico was by no means outmatched by John. Perhaps John could have tried to knock Nico out, but if the helicarrier battle in The Winter Soldier is anything to go by, supersoldiers don't remain unconscious for very long. So unlike Tony after his suit had been disabled, even though John had Nico on the ground, Nico was still very much capable of threatening John, and hard to safely neutralize. Despite John's advantageous position, there was no easy way for him to quickly and decisively subdue Nico. And indeed, if Tony was a supersoldier and so disabling the suit did not remove the threat he posed, Siberia would have been a very different story.

What also gave Steve an advantage in the situation was the fact that Tony was wearing a metal suit. This way, Steve had ample opportunity take out his anger on the armor without hurting Tony. Indeed, while Tony and Friday were discussing Steve's fight pattern, Steve appeared to be blindly pummeling Tony rather than actually trying to defeat him. And after Tony kicked Bucky in the head, Steve furiously punched Tony's armor three times before he used his shield to disable it. Considering that his goals at that point were to take off Tony's helmet and break the arc reactor, neither of which could be effectively accomplished by punches, this appears to be a calculated effort by him to release enough of his built-up fury that he could restrain himself enough to spare Tony.

However, there was obviously no equivalent conveniently available way that John could harmlessly take out his rage toward Nico. And it's definitely worth wondering whether Steve would have been able to control his anger as well as he did had he not gotten the chance to let some of it out first.

Therefore, Steve had much less to deal with than John did, as well as a safe way to release some of his anger. This is why trying to use Siberia as an example of why Steve is better than John is disingenuous, because Steve was dealing with much kinder circumstances.

The following would be a much more directly comparable situation. At the beginning of the Siberia fight, when Tony tries to missile Bucky in the face and Bucky turns it aside, the redirected missile causes a section of the building to collapse. Now, a few moments before this, Tony had produced some ankle-cuffs from his suit and put them on Steve. Steve managed to get out of them, though, which was very lucky because he had been in the section of the building that was collapsing.

However, imagine that Steve hadn't in fact been able to get out of the cuffs, and so had been crushed to death by the falling debris. Now, imagine that shortly after this, Bucky managed to get into a position where he had the upper hand over Tony (and for the sake of direct comparison, suppose that his suit was still somewhat functional, so he was still a threat). If Tony then panicked and yelled, "I didn't mean to!" and Bucky then lost it and killed him, would Bucky subsequently be demonized for it?

Honestly, probably, but there are plenty of people who would be able to forgive Bucky for being off-balance from his best friend's death, especially since it would be easy to see why Tony yelling what he did would have caused Bucky to lose it. It would also probably be easy for many people to see that Tony said "I didn't mean to!" because he was afraid of what Bucky would do to him, and not because he wanted to surrender, was actually remorseful about Steve's death, or had even lost his desire to kill Bucky. In addition, while people might be able to extend sympathy toward Tony due to the fact that he most likely didn’t actually mean to kill Steve, this would not obscure his responsibility for Steve’s death. While he might not have intentionally or directly killed Steve, he would still be responsible for the fact that he had been trying to kill Bucky, and this would undermine the sincerity of his claim because he had been aiming to kill, it was just that the wrong person ended up dead.

It is therefore quite frustrating that many people cannot extend the same compassion to John, when that is pretty much the situation he was in. He was just as off-balance as Bucky would have been after his best friend's death—while subsequently being further unbalanced by an insulting half-truth that his adversary uttered—and Nico was just as guilty as Tony would have been. While Nico saying “It wasn’t me!” might have been true in that he wasn’t the one who personally ended Lemar’s life, it was still the case that his attempt to murder John directly contributed to Lemar’s death. And it is clear that Nico was only upset because the person who ended up being killed was not the one he had intended—he would have been quite fine with it if John had perished—and the person he had actually been aiming for had regained the ability to fight back.

And Nico yelling, “It wasn’t me!” was no more an attempt to surrender than Tony’s words would have been. It was just him trying to absolve himself of responsibility for the situation he had helped cause. And his lack of intention to surrender is further demonstrated by the fact that he tries to get back up multiple times. The second time John hits Nico with the shield, he falls over. Nico then tries to get back up, so John hits him with the shield again. He tries to get back up yet again, so finally John puts his foot on Nico's chest to keep him down. It is only then that Nico yells, "It wasn't me!" This is not the behavior of someone who is interested in surrendering, this is the behavior of someone who is terrified that they don't have the upper hand anymore. If Nico had wanted to surrender, he would have stayed down the first time.

If we're looking for an analogous scenario that involves Steve, though, a much more closely comparable situation would be to see how he reacted after he thought Bucky had been killed. And even just a surface-level look at the situations reveals the fandom's hypocrisy. When, after Bucky had supposedly been killed by a member of the terrorist organization he and Steve were fighting, Steve vowed not to stop "until all of Hydra is dead or captured", people had no problem with it, even though only the one Hydra agent was involved in Bucky's apparent death. So Steve doubtlessly killed plenty of Hydra agents who were not even present at Bucky's fall to avenge him, but this was not seen as troublesome. Yet, after Lemar is killed by a member of the terrorist organization he and John were fighting, when John kills one Flagsmasher, who played an active role in Lemar's murder, minutes after he had been forced to watch the murder while being restrained by that same person, he is suddenly completely evil?

In fact, reflecting on Bucky's fall further reveals the fandom hypocrisy, for the Hydra agent is exactly as responsible for Bucky's death as Nico is for Lemar's death. After all, all the Hydra agent did was knock Bucky from the train, which Bucky initially survived because he managed to grab a handlebar. His "death" came when the handlebar gave out before Steve was able to grab him, which is not at all the Hydra agent's fault.

However, if Steve was subsequently shown killing that Hydra agent, even if the Hydra agent tried to deflect the blame and cried out, "I didn't mean for that to happen! I was just following orders!" it is not likely that people would then be all like "Steve is such a monster!!! He killed someone who is not entirely responsible for Bucky's death!!!!!" For while the Hydra agent might not have been the only one responsible for Bucky's "death", he clearly played a major role, and had still been previously been trying to kill Steve.

Indeed, it is pretty obvious how ridiculous trying to defend the Hydra agent would be, so it's baffling that people cannot see how ridiculous it is to try to apply that same argument to Nico. Just as Bucky's fall from the train could not have happened without the Hydra agent, Lemar's murder could not have happened without Nico's contributions. And just like the Hydra agent was previously trying to kill Steve, Nico had previously been engaged in trying to kill John.

Of course, people's lack of willingness to forgive John might be partly caused by the fact that The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was hating on John from the beginning, while neither The First Avenger nor The Winter Soldier (nor The Avengers (2012) or Age of Ultron) extensively hated on Steve. This way, even though there was significant hatred directed toward Steve in Civil War, it was somewhat tempered by the previously balanced portrayals. John unfortunately had no such advantage.

Thus, while it is not hard to see why people are tempted to compare the Siberia scene to Nico's death scene, acting like one is worse than the other is misleading, for they are too different to provide an accurate comparison. More comparable examples can be thought up, and these are very revealing.