#c!dream critical

[hopalongfairywren]

the fact that c!Dream could have been such a cool villain if people weren't so hell bent on bending over backwards to give the murdering abusive necromancer sympathetic reasons for why he committed all of his atrocities... and the funny thing is like all of those excuses you fit ACTUAL other villains like the 'c!Dream is possessed by a dreamon that's why he's mean actually' fan theory.... does the egg mean jack shit for you?

[w3ndytheraccoon]

If I see one more post about why C!Dream is not a villain, I will rage-

C!Dream is a complex character with an understandable motive, and his spiralings was very realistic and I can one hundred percent see why. He is a very morally gray, albeit leaning more toward black than white, character. It wouldn’t be fair if I just label him as THE villain, because perspectives exist, and in some member’s perspective, like Purpled for example, he’s definitely not as evil as he is in, say, Tubbo’s perspective.

But that doesn’t change the fact Dream was a horrible person.

Just because he had a understandable motive, that doesn’t mean the shit that happened in Exile is justified. That doesn’t mean Doomsday is justified. That doesn’t mean all the manipulation and all the lying are justified. That doesn’t mean what he and Punz did to Vikkstar and Lazarbeam is justified. That doesn’t mean what happened in prison was justified.

Especially Exile and Vikkstar & Lazarbeam ! Exile is for isolating Tommy so he can’t cause trouble, not for abusing and gaslighting him to near the point of fucking suicide ! And what happened to Vikkstar & Lazarbeam was completely unnecessary ! Dream and Punz did NOT need to kill them over and over and over just to test the Revival Book, that is cruel and several violations of human’s rights.

Conclusion : C!Dream fucking sucks and I wish Punz didn’t brought him back. I’m an enthusiast, not apologist. His motive makes him explainable, not justifiable or excusable, and if I ever somehow manage to rip the fabric of reality and teleport to the DSMP universe, the first thing I will do is find Dream to deck him.

… But he’s still a complex character and one of my favourites.

Anyway, if I miss a point or something, do remind me. I’ll probably edit this and add more character analysis in the morning, when my thoughts are actually coherent and I’m not writing something from pure spite and anger.

Morning edit :

He also hurt Geogre and Sapnap. Sure, he never physically hurt them as far as we’re aware, but do you know how painful it is to watch your friend spirals and became the total opposite of how they were ? How helpless it feels when you realised your friend is too far gone and you can’t help them ? How guilty it is when you think of all the times you could reach out and stop them from turning out like this but you didn’t ? How badly that would take a toll on your mental health ?

But anyway, just because C!Dream is a horrible person, that doesn’t mean what happened in prison is okay. The whole obsidian cell with lava door and raw potato ? Yeah, that’s fine, I can get behind that, since it was his idea for prison to be like that. It’s just karma. What I meant is the torture part. Does he deserve it ? Depends who you ask. I personally think it was justified and deserved, but that still doesn’t make it okay.

[cellberry]

omigod omigod omigod

[hopalongfairywrens]

“C!dream is morally grey in the grand scheme of things” no the fuck he isn’t lmao. The dude literally tortured two people for not even science. He torments a teenager too the point of suicide. He levels an entire city. He doesn’t feel remorse for any of that and considers it a necessary step in his vague goal for a serverwide cult of personality utopia! You can like morally abhorrent characters it’s okay. He doesn’t become a magically morally grey guy when put next to an omnicidal dictator either, because one doesn’t negate the severity of the other’s crimes and I feel like a bunch of people forget in this case it’s child abuse, stalking, abduction and murder.

[imsosocold]

The Dichotomy of Disliking Characters:  

While c!tommy went through a lot of terrible things he also did a lot fucked up stuff not properly addressed by the narrative ( c!dream is  like double this ugh)  such as his treatment of Jack, the torture he put Fundy through, the  possessiveness of  Tubbo, him threatening to kill a child out of jealously, etc. This lack of  resolution makes it hard to like his character combined with the fandom’s tendency to similarly brush over his flaws and woobify him.                                 Oh, c!Sam? Ew, he’s a cop, fuck him. 

[pxtopia]

Honest thoughts

I am very aware of the impossibility of this occurring but ngl i really wish the ending involved more people :( like remember all the big events like the first fight for independence, the manberg festival, and november 16? They all included so many people and so many different perspectives showcasing the different characters emotions and experiences. It would feel so much more complete if everyone was there for the end of the world. Also c!Tommy apologizing to his abuser is a big yikes from me, c!wilbur would’ve never let this happen

[nootdraws]

DreamSMP lore spoilers and discussion! This will be talking about c!Tommy and c!Dream, specifically their final moments in the prison in the finale stream. This will talk about child abuse, so pls be warned, keep urself safe <3 and it is c!Dream critical.

Ok I’m not very happy w the way that c!Tommy’s lore ended up panning out. (Not getting into that apology bc i wanna see if cc!Tommy is gonna say anything on that first. I personally am thinking that c!Tommy saying “I’m sorry” was intended in a diff way than it came across.)

I think that there were some very good elements in this lore (hopefully if I get some time soon I’ll be making some art based on those good elements) but the one I wanna talk abt rn is c!Tommy’s limbo sequence.

I’m gonna say, I really liked c!Dream being humanised there. I am genuinely really happy he was turned into something other than just a villain in c!Tommy’s eyes, even if the execution was a little clunky. I can’t help but feel let down though by the extreme nothing they do with this character revelation (obviously they didn’t have much time left after that but still! There could’ve been some confrontation!). I think that c!Dream should be humanised, not because he deserves redemption or deserves c!Tommy to empathise with or forgive him, but rather because I think it makes him so much worse.

Because c!Dream should not be mythologised into a Villain With A Capital Vee. He is just a man. He is just a human being. He’s a human being with a lot of cruelty and a magic book. And I think that in this context seeing that c!Dream was once happy and kind and good is important bc it shows that he was not made that way, he was not ‘forced’ to be a villain.

(Yes, there was a war and yes, c!Tommy burned down a house that one time but c!Dream’s response was wildly disproportionate to those actions, and thus I do not think he was forced into abusing c!Tommy in exile bc he clearly and obviously chose to do that of his own volition.)

He very actively and deliberately chose to hurt those around him bc he WANTED to. And he didn’t have a tragic story that pushed him over the edge! He was happy at the beginning of the server and then he became cruel. There is no plot twist backstory that paints him into shades of grey or justifies what he did. He was a man who was happy and lived a good life and made the active decision to be cruel anyway.

And for that, I think the limbo sequence was good. Sadly it wasn’t utilised as such and rather just seems as canon fodder for those who wish to defend c!Dream’s actions as if he did not abuse a child for months on end.

Thank u for coming to my TEDtalk, I have very mixed feelings abt this finale 😇🙏

[bunybunn]

Something very interesting about the dynamics between c!Tommy and c!Dream is that in reality it's fueled by the obsession from both sides. It never was just c!Dream is obsessed with c!Tommy because c!Tommy was almost just as bad when it comes to being obsessed about c!Dream.

If we look back to the very first discs war it started because after c!Tommy and c!Sapnap burned c!Ponk's lemon tree they saw c!Dream running towards him and decided to kill him. Keep in mind c!Dream had an Iron armour on that was much weaker then what c!Sapnap and c!Tommy had on. Later c!Dream demands apologise and decided to keep the discs as a punishment as well as a possible blackmail is c!Tommy misbehave. Of course c!Tommy wasn't happy about that and c!Dream wasn't wiling to back down ether with is why the discs war started. Why is it important? Because it basically highlights the reason why each of them ended up fixating on one another.

In c!Tommy's case is the assumption that c!Dream is his personal villain. He often tells c!Tubbo that it was always them against c!Dream focusing on the fact it's more personal. C!Tommy's hatred was also heavily connected to his obsession with his discs and the idea that even if he gives them willing to c!Dream it's still the same as if they were stolen. But then the exile happened and the way he sees c!Dream is tainted by fear which makes him fixated on the idea that c!Dream wants to destroy him and hurt him specifically. Of course it's fair enough considering his trauma and the fact that c!Dream did use it against him but it still was the thing that pushed him to try kill c!Dream one more time. He takes it personally and can't let go of it because all that happened sunken to deep into him.

On the other hand we have c!Dream. Most of things he does aren't just targeting c!Tommy because it's c!Tommy rather it has more to do with overall control. The reason why he wanted the discs is because he could use them to make sure c!Tommy will behave and in result it could also help to control people who care about c!Tommy. The reason why he went against L'Manberg wasn't c!Tommy, it was the fact that he saw the idea of a nation that only few can join as something that will separate people from each other (c!Dream said it multiple times including around-ish the time L'Manberg started so yeah it was his motivation). He focused on c!Tommy because he was often involved in many of the things c!Dream's saw as problems. Considering that he is the type to believe that the end justifies the means it's not really surprising that he went that far to make sure c!Tommy won't be a problem (although it still failed if you think about it). His obsession focus more on the idea that having c!Tommy under control might somehow bring peace.

it's important to add that for quite a while c!Dream let go of focusing on c!Tommy because he was busy with more important stuff like getting revenge on the people that made his time in prison a living hell but then our favourite duo decided to murder him. If you think about it both of them fuel each other needs to target the other. Even if one will give up the other can easily bring them back to the toxic circle.

[autistic-fandom-trash]

So I just watch part 3 of c!Tommy’s lore finale and here are some thoughts:

-The way he said “I can stand that.” after getting set on fire was so badass and I will never be normal about it. Like he didn’t even flinch. Just. Wow.

-The parallels between this and the January 20th stream. Oh my god. Both have one member of clingyduo ready to sacrifice himself while the other tries to find a better way, but now the roles are reversed. It’s coming full circle!!!

-Tommy destroying the discs to save Tubbo despite everything and being protective of Tubbo even when they’re both in equal danger and being willing to sacrifice his life so Tubbo doesn’t have to. FAVORITE CHARACTER FOR A GODDAMN REASON.

-I REALLY REALLY HOPE TOMMY DOESN’T DIE TOMORROW.

-Clingyduo>>>>>

-I love the detail that they’d be using Tubbo’s nukes to kill Dre@m and Punz. A collaboration between best friends being the thing to take them down is such a perfect rejection and defiance of Dre@m’s fucked up worldview.

-I almost feel bad for Punz in a way. Spending eternity with someone willing to let you suffer through literal hell is something I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. Almost.

-*cries*

[atomickittenland]

it's almost like seeing perspective of a crazy narcissist with a love for obscuring fact makes him seem more evil

giggling and rolling around bc for so long there have been people excusing c!dreams behavior as "we're just not seeing his point of view, he might have a good reason for what he does" and now that we do have a glimpse of his pov, he's murdering the elderly bc "no one will notice they're gone"

[sethdomain]

the narrative that c!tommy used c!techno is kind of diabolical tbh, people often forgot that c!tommy is fresh out of exile and doesn't consider the place that he's in.

He's running on pure instinct, fresh from suicide attempt and running from his abuser and the only one he can confide in is c!techno the criminal that destroyed his home country. Despite their history c!techno still took him in, but why? He could of just kick c!tommy from his house and let him run lose in the tundra of snow and let him survive on his own while c!drm sniff over his trails of footstep. But he took him in and protect him from the looming threat of his abuser.

And its sad, its very sad that even if c!Techno took c!Tommy in he used it as an opportunity. An opportunity to use c!Tommy as a pawn in his quest for anarchy. Now, you might be thinking, but c!techno took him in, take care of him and even defended c!tommy ,why are you painting him as this heartless villain that used an abused child for his own gains? Frankly, I try not to and maybe its also in the way i'am awful with articulating my words into something that make sense. I truly do not think c!Techno is heartless and his relationship with c!tommy does have a sincerity in it.

But I think my main point is that, there was a power imbalance between c!tommy and c!techno that people often overlooked. Like I said c!Tommy is fresh out of exile n traumatized n stuff and he's in a weaker position and his only hope in escaping his abuser is c!Techno since he is the only character thats is deadass near logstedshire and also one of the most powerful people in the esempi.

And also I just do not think painting an abuse survivor trying to find help as an act of... That, is a nice message you know 😁 haha- not to get real and get to the implication of stuff- but ahahaha, yk haha. ANYWAY.

I don't think c!techno is a heartless monster, like I said i think his relationship with c!tommy has sincerity within it. I think as time goes on, i think techno grew actual care toward tommy evidence by his interaction with tommy as time goes on growing more closer and affectionate and his strong reaction when tommy left him for tubbo.

But still, c!Techno treats tommy more of a pawn in his quest for anarchy, you also have to remember that he will send off c!tommy to his abuser again without a second though if c!drm used his favor. Of course, if you were in c!tommy place, why would you stay with a guy like that? He goes againts everything you stand for and you don't even know if you're safe with him. Maybe because he saved your life? Do you really owe him that much that you are willing to destroy your home and even fight your own best friend for him? Was it all transitional? Do I worth anything? Do I not matter as a living breathing human being? Am I not worth of safety?

I just wanna talk about my feeling about c!tommy and c!techno relationship in post-exile arc, because i think i find the narrative a bit icky if you are maybe a survivor of abusive relationship. I also wanna talk about the interesting bit of sincerity their relationship actually kind of have, that despite c!techno using c!tommy as pawn he does actually cares in the very end. Which is sad to think about

[stellocchia]

Does anyone remember that time cWilbur tried to weaponize the pit against cQuackity in the custody battle stream and he said something along the lines of "Don't trust someone who would have fought you in the pit" to cTommy?

Because I do.

That was fucked up.

Like, straight-up, not only incredibly manipulative, but also fucked up on a fundamental level. Wilbur is the one who dug up the pit all the way back in Pogtopia. He's the one who came up with the idea of Tommy and Techno fighting in there. He's the one who pushed Tommy and Techno in. He's the one who kept goading them on.

The only person who thought it was appropriate to get Tommy beaten to a pulp because he dared being angry at the guy who executed his best friend on the orders of a dictator is Wilbur. No one else thought of it. No one else orchestrated it. Even Mr. Techno "The only universal language is Violence" Blade was hesitant. Not Wilbur though! Motherfucker cheered throughout!

And then, after the brutality and cruelty of that situation, he had the GALL to try and use his own actions to discredit someone else. Because the way he phrased it cannot be spun around into a self-deprecating "you can't trust me" moment, there was none of that. He was straight-up just being a dickhead.

And then people wonder why Tommy didn't trust him after he came back to life and treated him like a ticking time bomb. Maybe Wilbur shouldn't have gaslit, girlbossed, and gatekept so close to the sun constantly!

[imsosocold]

Can’t believe c!tommyinnit aplogized to c!dream of all people, and not c!jackmanifold or c!fundy

[atomickittenland]

helping someone who has planned to use you for experiments definitely won't come back to bite you in the ass later.

"i needed to help dream escape it was business." that "business" involved helping a man who was literally planning to use you as a labrat in his revival experiments because you're "old and might die soon anyway" escape from prison. 😊💖

[simplepotatofarmer]

the biggest example of lack of media literacy in the dsmp fandom was when people got upset at the whole 'c!dream doesn't understand big words and he can't read a map' thing except those were just. literal canon facts. it was stated explicitly in canon to be true.

what do you even call that? being media illiterate on purpose??

[nootdraws]

Ok ok so the entirety of no children does not fit c!dream and c!tommy bc ultimately it’s a relationship that’s fucked on both ends and that’s not what c!tommy and c!dream have, it’s very one sided abuse

But

“I hope you die, I hope we both die” fits the prison scene so perfectly imo

Obvi in the og song the line is abt how they’re both bad for eachother and both have extreme hatred for the other and also hatred of themselves bc of the way they feed off of each others negativity to be worse ppl but in the context of c!discduo it’s just this intensely sad moment of a child and his abuser and him wanting that person dead but also wanting himself dead bc he’s suicidal and doesn’t see a future for himself beyond being a soldier and once c!dream is dead he has no reason to keep fighting