#but this show is complex for people to understand

[suicidal-socialist]

The leftward radicalisation of US youth, as their propagandised view of China is being disspelled, is intrigueing

However, I doubt the force will last enough or result in much, unless pre-existing organisations cease this momentum, maybe even by changing the aims while keeping the structure - which, for example, pro-Palestinian organisations may be able to do. The key factor in utilising feelings and opinions is organising: unions, protests, parties, etc - things that are generally in a less than favourable spot in the US, especially under the extra-reactionary rule of Musk and Trump with the union-related law changes and probably general screw-tightening in terms of the police state (The discussion of last year's election is another topic, not gonna touch on it here)

Organisations can be kickstarted by cultural events (like the RedNote migration or Luigi) or, like, anything on the agenda that activates the public consciousness - the Palestine conflict being one example of how it works, as well as how much the powers that be hate that fact (Mfw "JEWS against Israel" is "antisemetic") - but the important things is their consistency. They create a self-reinforcing cycle of increasing the amount of people involved in political and economic struggle, their experience and understanding, their unity and willpower.

In order to put the shift in consciousness to use, you should organise locally - while working with greater organisations to bring small cells into a cohesive whole - and vocally - while having something to show for your words, of course.

There are lots of people with practical experience providing guidance on how to agitate and organise when it comes to legal stuff, protest safety, etc. just a Google search away

The most important lesson, though, is that organisation is rooted in communication. With colleagues at work, like-minded people on social media and friends wherever you hang out. Reach out and use whatever platform you already have

One example of basic organising is the somwhat recent "FixTF2" action: some tf2 creators got together, told their audiences to spread the word and made a site with a petition. The chance that Valve just kinda *happened to* finally do something effective after the campaign and it all was a concidence is there, but I have my doubts, to say the least.

Ofc, actual organising is more complex, and you should try finding pre-existing established resources instead of making lots of new tiny ones from scratch, if you go for the social media strat, but case and point - doesn't take much to set off a domino chain, especially if the dominoes are upset and pissed-off. Whether you make the initial little push yourself on social media, or seek one from a unionising consultant, remember - united we bargain, divided we beg

I'm not gonna clean up the yap, I gotta go to bed it's half to 1 AM and I got 3 test tomorrog goddamit. Bye!

[vitaray]

You can disagree with me, but I fucking hate what hotd did to Aegon as a character and how fandom (and his fans too) treats him.

The show has not only made him a comedic figure, but it has also made fun of him (every time they had the chance), humiliating and diminishing him as a secondary character. It's only due to TGC's performance that Aegon has been saved to some extent.

At this point I don't agree with most people on how they view him. Even his own fans by making him pathetic, stupid, good for nothing, just a pretty face little mew mew. He can be that sometimes for fun, but no. You miss the whole point of Aegon's character if that's how you view him.

When I think of Aegon, strength is the first word that comes to mind. Internal strength to overcome everything of what happened to him. To stand up, to accept his fate, to do whatever is needed: marry his sister, take the throne, fight for the throne and take revenge. Many others would gave up, run away or die in his place, but he didn't.

Aegon didn't want any of this, but he accepted it out of a sense of duty. Despite not being perfectly suited for the role, he takes responsibility and listens to those who are more knowledgeable. He wants to end the war swiftly, desires to be loved and make an impact as a ruler.

And let's not forget that he surges to every battle without fearing for his life (it might not be the best decision for a monarch), but it's also admirable.

He loves his family. And trusts them completely.

Aegon is not a fool to laugh at or someone who simply craves violence. He is a complex character (I know people like to laught at that for some reason) and, instead of constantly fighting for sides on who's more right or wrong, or "who's pretty/who's not", I wish fans would rather analyze and understand the nuances of his character and what he could have become with better writing.

[amadinan]

My thoughts about Caine

Well, it’s time for (possibly cracked) analysis of "TADC" and it will focus on Caine and his indirect, as it seems to me, development in the series.

But before diving into the details from individual episodes, it’s worth summarizing my observations about Caine both in the show and beyond it.

Let’s start at the beginning: the show’s synopsis describes Caine as a “wacky AI,” and Gooseworx doesn’t hide his nature, but in the show itself, neither Caine nor the circus members call him that—at all. Throughout the series, there are scattered jokes about glitches and lines like “I don’t know what’s normal to you, people” but this is never outright confirmed.

This raises the question: do the people in the circus even know who he is? If Caine himself might not consider this information important and thus never told them, people’s perception of their ringleader could drastically change with this revelation. After all, there’s a big difference between being “held captive” by a sadistic, crazy person or a machine with limited understanding of humanity.

Kinger may know about this, but he’s the Kinger. Jax might also know since having the keys implies some kind of “cheats.” Pomni hasn’t said anything, so it’s unclear what she thinks about Caine. Ragatha and Gangle call him by name, so that’s unclear as well. And then there’s Zooble. They don't understand Caine, just as he doesn’t understand them. Anyone who has worked with computers would understand what a command like “forget that” means, especially since Caine asked for confirmation—but not Zooble. They just spoke to him as if he were a person with a leaky memory, like Kinger.

Even though Caine isn’t just a program, it’s important to remember that he takes the world far too literally, despite the circus’s deliberately crazy atmosphere.

The second observation concerns Caine’s fixation on hierarchy. In the first episode, he first asks himself, “What happened?” and then answers himself: “My doing” after seeing the chaos following Kaufmo. In the third episode, he repeats almost word-for-word that he’s the boss after Pomni questions the AI’s reason. In episode 4, this is explored extensively through his interactions with Gangle. One standout moment is when Caine suggests that Gangle pass responsibility onto someone lower in rank. Doesn’t that seem strange? Where could he have gotten such an idea? Only if he had seen or experienced similar situations before.

Plus, he says, “Not every executive is as forgiving as me” Again, this suggests that Caine knew or knows someone who was very strict with their subordinates—or perhaps with him personally.

Adding to this is his reaction to Zooble’s critique in episode 3. Caine says that he doesn’t just exist to create adventures; it’s the ONLY thing he’s good at. If he’s bad at it, then he’s failed the purpose of his own existence.

This paints a picture of a strict boss/programmer who created Caine to generate adventures and then kept pushing him repeatedly until Caine started producing good results. Pleasing this boss was likely very difficult, and failures might even have been met with punishment.

On the one hand, neural networks and ordinary programs are debugged this way: running the same algorithm over and over, correcting errors until they produce the desired result. But on the other hand... What happens if you add a human factor to such a program? What kind of person would emerge if you applied this method of training to a child?

You’d get an anxious perfectionist with an overachiever complex who is deathly afraid of failure. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

And Kinger’s words about the scariest thing being making someone feel unloved and unwanted... Caine literally believes that if he can’t generate adventures, he won’t be needed by anyone. The circle is complete.

Now, let’s turn to Gooseworx’s answer to the question: Can Caine feel loneliness? Judging by what she posted, the answer is yes. This makes the overall picture even darker.

Here’s how I see the sequence of events:

C&A starts developing a game. Its main feature is an advanced AI that can create new adventures on demand.

The programmer creates Caine and tries to achieve results, but fails to please. Around this time, Caine begins to develop self-awareness.

The project and the game are abandoned and forgotten—along with Caine, who is left utterly alone. No players, no programmers, not even another AI. He likely begins blaming himself for this. After all, he couldn’t create good adventures, so it’s his fault that he ended up alone.

This ties into Gooseworx’s comments about Caine’s name. He gave himself a name and then turned it into an acronym to seem more “professional” (again, tying back to work). This is highly unusual in itself. The programmers likely didn’t even bother naming the AI—he was probably just “The Ringmaster.”

Left in isolation, Caine starts to lose his mind and begins creating other AIs. For them, he unabashedly declares himself a god. Which, to be fair, is true. It’s not just about the fact of his consciousness—it’s that he knows how the NPCs will behave because he programmed them. But they bore him. To him, they’re predictable dummies. Maybe that’s why he keeps chaotic entities like Bubble around instead of someone like Gummigoo.

Then the first human arrives—a being alien to Caine on many levels. And while I personally think Caine lied about being unable to access human minds, he deliberately refrains from doing so to preserve their unpredictability for himself.

The circus becomes what we now know it to be.

Now, let’s move on to the episodes. This post was written between episodes 4 and 5, so the thoughts will focus on them.

I think that aside from the main characters driving the action in each episode, they still indirectly reflect on Caine, his worldview, or his story. The reason is simple within the lore: Caine creates the adventures. And like any creator, he infuses them with his worldview and thoughts. So, each adventure is a small glimpse into how this AI thinks. Even in the teaser, for just a second, Caine's fear and uncertainty become evident when the viewer "doesn't want" to see what he wants to show.

The first episode doesn’t offer much beyond the queen of the gloinks mentioning God.

The second episode, however, gets more interesting. Besides the stained glass with his irreplaceable self, Caine stands out for adding a highly complex NPC AI: Gummigoo. Gummigoo is advanced enough to gain self-awareness, experience an existential crisis, and even overcome it. But what did Caine use to achieve such complexity? The most powerful AI in the circus, of course—himself.

What if the crisis Gummigoo went through is something Caine went through long ago? Even Gummigoo’s words, “I am nothing, just an obstacle to be overcome and forgotten,” could have been said by Caine. But like Gummigoo, he overcame this realization and accepted himself. Sure, he’s just entertainment, but at least he’s the best entertainment there can be. (Until Zooble gave him real feedback, shattering his self-image.)

The third episode directly explores Caine through his therapy session with Zooble, while the secondary plot, as many think, delves into Kinger’s backstory through the Mildenhall couple. The analogy is obvious: Martha represents Queenie, and the Baron represents Kinger. Mildenhall himself says he was a hunter (and Kinger is adept with a shotgun), but after encountering a strange being, he became paranoid and killed his wife. Everything fits. Kinger became so focused on his goal that he stopped paying attention to Queenie until she abstracted.

But the Baron feared an angel that was “neither beast nor human.” Who in the circus could evoke such unrelenting dread—not just in anyone but a seasoned programmer familiar with digital technology, unlike Pomni? One AI that is “neither machine nor human.” I think Kinger’s paranoia stems from this. He sought a way out and, as a programmer, may have even felt responsible for finding one. (In fact, in the episode, Kinger almost says this outright, assuming the theory that he truly is the circus’s creator.) This must have brought him into conflict with Caine, as everything related to the circus ultimately relates to Caine. Given the AI’s ability to control almost everything, it’s no wonder a tech-savvy person would fear such a godlike admin. Plus, his fear for Queenie led to the current situation.

As mentioned above, episode 4 hints at Caine’s negative experience with a boss but not just that. Naturally, the episode revolves around Gangle and her attempts to be different—more cheerful and optimistic—which ends badly for her mental state.

I’ve seen opinions that Gangle revels in the sense of control her manager position gives her. This seems accurate—but not just for her. Throughout the episode, Gangle’s behavior, mannerisms, and even expressions eerily reminded me of Caine’s. That deliberately loud, expressive, and slightly crazy demeanor... And just like with him, it didn’t end well.

In conclusion, I think episodes 5 and 6 will continue to subtly reveal aspects of Caine until episodes 7 and 8/9 shift the focus entirely to him, Pomni, and the possible escape from the circus.

[sof1eee]

A rant/defending Cho Sangwoo actions

I love him so much he's such a complex and good written character, and this is basically just me ranting about my babygirl

So the first thing that i want to clarify is the reason why he joined the squid game, many people just immediately assumed that he wanted the money all for himself which is wrong. Personally, i think he DID joined the game for the money (obviously everyone did) BUT he also wanted to win the money for his mother. He wanted to show his mom that he is actually successful and to make her proud (obviously his mom is already so proud of him, but he doesn't know that). Also he literally was being hunted down by the police because he embezzled money from his client, so he definitely needed the money to pay all of that money off and bail himself out of jail. Obviously by the end, he kind of got money hungry, I won't deny that. I also want to remind you guys that the squid game is literally a last resort for EVERYONE in the game.

I feel like this is one of the big reason why people hate him which is, he killed Sae-Byeok and Ali. Even though I'm a Sang-Woo fan, i still BAWLED my eyes out when Ali or Sae-Byeok died, but i feel like it is understandable why he killed them both. Now let's start with Ali first. He doesn't even know Ali THAT long, he had only known him for LESS THAN A WEEK. So the fact that he betrayed Ali and took all of the marbles, i wouldn't really say that it's "selfish". Let's try to put on Sang-Woo's perspective for a second, "you're in a Life or Death game in which if you LOSE, you're never gonna see the light of day ever again, and you're playing against this guy, you've known him for 5 days (?) and he is WINNING, this is NOT good, obviously. If he does win, you'll die. You start to think of your mother back at home, who would take care of her? She's old and she's can't take care of herself, you're her only family left. You can't just leave her alone right? You're in this game because you wanted to help her, make her live a comfortable life without worries about money or food on the table. You CAN'T just die right now. No. You NEED to live. You need to WIN. For her. For your mother. And lucky for you, your opponent seems to be gullible, maybe you can win this afterall. I mean yeah, you're gonna indirectly kill him but... he's just a nobody. You've known for like what.. 5 days? He's not as important as your mom, right? Sure, he probably has a family but that's his own problem. Everyone in this game have a family, everyone wanted to survive. So, you betrayed him, sure u do feel guilty, but hey, it's the battle of the strongest right?" So basically, would you choose a random stranger you just met or your family? If you really think about it, Sangwoo was being very reasonable here.

Okay so now about Sae-Byeok's death, okay so let's be realistic for a second. Sae-Byeok's would've died from blood loss either way if Sang-woo didn't kill her. A glass shard literally stabbed her in the stomach and there was no way in hell the guards or the frontman were gonna treat her for it. There was only two options for her, dying slowly from blood loss or getting killed by Sang-woo, which was much more faster. Sang-Woo's reasons for killing her was that if Sae-Byeok and Gi-Hun voted to leave, they'll be the majority it need to stop the games. So I could definitely see where he's coming from, i mean imagine you literally just saw HUNDREDS of people died, you already killed 2 people, you ALMOST died and you haven't showered or eaten a proper meal for almost a week, ALL FOR THE 45.6 BILLION WON BUT THEN TURNS OUT YOU'RE PROBABLY JUST DID ALL OF THAT FOR NOTHING BECAUSE YOU'RE GONNA GET OUTVOTED BY TWO PEOPLE. So basically you just got a whole lot of trauma, YOU'RE STILL BROKE, the police are coming to get you and you can't see your mom because you're ashamed of yourself. Like damn, i would've done the same ngl....

"He didn't tell Gi-Hun what the second game was even though he knew!" Okay so yes i do agree with this, i think he should've told Gi-Hun about it! But if you hate Sang-woo for that reason then Gi-Hun deserve to be hated too, he did the exact same thing with the old man in the marble game. He lied and let the old man lose so he could have the advantage and win. THIS JUST SHOWS THAT THE GAME WAS DESIGNED TO BRING THE WORST OUT OF PEOPLE!!!! EVEN GI-HUN, OUR MAIN CHARACTER, LIED AND INDIRECTLY KILLED SOMEONE! (obviously the old guy didn't die but Gi-Hun didn't know that).

"Sang-woo didn't care about his mother." First of all, NO????? WHERE THE HELL DID U GET THAT FROM??? Like i said from the beginning, his mom was ONE OF THE REASON why he joined the games anyway! He didn't want to go back home and be a disappoinment to EVERYONE. Literally if you guys remember, his mom and Gi-Hun wasn't the only one who keeps bragging about him attending SNU, EVEYONE IN THE TOWN LITERALLY CALLED HIM "The genius of Ssamun-Dong". Further-more, his LAST WORDS were literally "Gi-Hun.... take care... of my mom.." WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE NEVER CARED FOR HER????

"He didn't feel guilty or remorseful after what he'd done." Okay so... did u watched the show with your eyes closed? Look i know he killed some people but he's still HUMAN. He FLINCHED when he heard the gunshot that shot Ali. His mental state was getting worse day by day. Right before he stab himself in the neck, he said "Hyung.... I'm sorry.." and I think he said that not only because he was apologizing for killing Sae-Byeok but also to just say sorry for every single thing he had done up until that moment. The guilt was obviously eating him alive.

The reason why he killed himself. He was already suicidal from the beginning, in episode 2, he tried to kill himself. He thinks living is just not worth it anymore, he has lost hope in humanity. Squid game was his last resort to try and fix his mistake. Maybe he can finally be the son his mother was proud of. The only reason why he killed himself at the end was because he trusted Gi-Hun. He trusted him to take care of his mom. He knew he couldn't live his life with the guilt of killing his childhood bestfriend. He knew Gi-Hun is a nice guy and would help his mother. He knew Gi-Hun would use the money to do something good. Like i said, he trusted him. At that point, Sang-woo thinks this was the best case scenario, him dying and Gi-Hun living. So in that moment, he chose to kill himself.

______________________________________________

Erm so I might've yapped a little too much but it's about Sang-woo so who cares am i right? 😂

Please actually read all of it 💔🙏🏻

TL;DR: Sang-woo is a complex and good written character that the dummies can't handle xx 💕

[apeninastory]

ivan as a tragic-love character (pt.4e?) | Cure edition

Here we go! Last step - for now, because I'm definitely looking forward to Ivan's solo part 2, they own it to us!!

But first, part 4 HERE + a little recap!

Vivimeng gifted us three beautiful tracks with glimpses of Ivan's mind and feelings - and for that, I'll be forever grateful. I can't even begin to say how fascinated I am with this character, it feels like an eternal mistery the more we are shown about him.

Song-wise, we have Nowhere, Black Sorrow and Cure - listed in order of composition/performance and in a somewhat chronological order of the hints about the growing maturity of Ivan's character. Taking into account that the last two were probably not written by Ivan (but are still meant to partly speak about him and his relation to Till), the first his definitely the best portrait we have. Nevertheless, each of them gives us a piece of Ivan as seen from his own eyes/the eyes of Vivimeng, each with something more and something less.

Where Nowhere recounts his life, from his childhood to his years at Anakt up to his graduation (how he tries to fit in, how he imitates to compensate, how the dissonance between the Ivan he is and the Ivan-character he builds forms the mask everyone sees, how he learns to control his emotions, even those he doesn't comprehend and make him bitter, numb, resigned), the delivery of Black Sorrow is its direct outcome.

Nowhere has a flat rhythm, but it's full of complex, vibrating emotions, memories, considerations and images. Black Sorrow has a much more monolitic scenary (black everywhere), but has such richness in the way Ivan sings it and portrays its content - how the power in his voice builds with past flashes of Till, coming out hoarse and breathtaking. I love the play of opposites here, it feels like we are discovering two sides of the same character - the inner, numb voice of a Ivan who offers us a window to his soul and the charming, smiley boy on stage who tells us the story of a sorrowful unrequited love (where in reality, much deeper, it is not only about that, but also about how this world is taking the chance of keep loving Till from the shadows away from him).

Ivan doesn't pretend love from Till - that's not the kind of violence Ivan or his love are made of. It is more a type of intensity, of desperation born from lack of understanding and small, sudden epiphanies - from a need that is also quiet, wary and respectful.

Ivan's love is not pretty, soft and rosy. It blooms in secret, it is obsessive and requires petty attention. How could it not be? Imagine a boy who has never had anything for himself making his first friend. Imagine him being charmed by him and thinking about him and finding his eyes on him all the time - imagine him provocking him, hurting him, feeling guilty and fascinated and confused, because he doesn't really know how people show affection to each other, has never received love and care during his childhood, when it is most important and educational. Imagine him projecting all his hopes and positive feelings onto that person - would his mind accept that person slipping away from him? Till represents so much to Ivan - and contrary to many opinions, it is not Mizi who keeps Till away from Ivan (Mizi is part of what makes Till special in Ivan's eyes). On one hand, it is Ivan himself; on the other it is, of course, their lack of proper communication that makes Till iperaware and wary of Ivan.

Ivan's love is the result of normalized abuse and the lack of stability of an entire life, of the newfound happiness, quiteness, intimate dependability he formed with Till slowly slipping away from him because the alien society decided that they were meant to participate in a game where only one of them (or none) would come out alive. No matter how obedient Ivan is, the stage awaits both him and Till, and he will either die or have to live without Till.

This is the background on which Cure is performed.

12] Cure, or Ivantill at their best (and our worst)

Cure holds a special place in my heart, and I think we all know how impactful Round 6 was on all of us. While a big part of my previous posts were closely related to Ivan as a character experiencing the world, here I can finally delve into my babies' round however I like!

I don't really know how to talk about Till's verse, but I've been looking forward to it. I'd love to analyse him as a character, and I may do that in the near future, but I feel like I wouldn't do him justice - even though both me and Till are INFP and are quite similar. So forgive me if I lose his characterization along the way.

Allow me, to the tips of your fingers Allow me, to the ends of your feet Dissolve me in your gaze I don't want to let you go Please, leave me scars Please, hurt me so that Not a single drop of me remains Let me drown in you

If Till wrote these verses and I was on the receiving end of them, I'd swoon so bad I wouldn't know what to do with myself. But I can't help but think how well they match the second part of the song, when Ivan comes in, so I'm guessing the lyrics were written by the same person (alnst directors or whatever, but neither Till nor Ivan) with a precise theme in mind? Like, impossible love, a love that can never be?

That being said, we know he is thinking about Mizi. (But.)

There is none of the usual bite in Till's voice, but it is still full of emotions. The verses he sings seem like a prayer. A request to touch someone, manifesting his wish of not wanting to let go of that person. It's like he is saying through Cure's lines, "if I am really forced to let you go, if there is nothing I can do, please leave scars on me and make me forget about everything by drowning and losing myself in you/your memory - make me numb to everything so that I don't have to face this alone".

It feels to me that, since Till knows he is about to lose either himself or the one he considers a dear friend (death, either way, will be the outcome of this round), he reaches out to what has always been a source of solace and relief, his safe heaven - the memory and image of Mizi -, to get strength from her. So, while it is true that he is thinking about her, I also think he is reaching for her hand in his mind as a mean to brace himself for the inevitable. There is none of the usual heat in Till's tone, it's like he already perceives the defeat looming over him - he dies or Ivan dies, and either way, it is a loss for him.

There is another interpretation that I want to add, though (one we can make in retrospective, one we all probably matured after Till's death). Let's think about R7 Till - a Till that has already lost Ivan. I feel these words would take a deeper, more desolate nuance, one where Till is asking Ivan to either stay or scar him in a rhetorical way, because Ivan is already gone and he has already hurt Till beyond belief with his sacrifice and the feelings he never revealed. During Blink Gone, Till can't help but drown in his last memory of Ivan.

So maybe, while singing these verses, he is not directly asking Mizi to scar him, nor is he asking Ivan - maybe he is asking god, any god. Maybe there is no one behind those words as Till sings them - after all, I can think Till writing/saying this to Mizi, nor would he say it to Ivan (not pre-Round 7, at least). Those lines are for us, for the ivantill we see and could have been.

Until these falling stars Are buried in the blur of time On your icy lips Read my soul Yes, my soul, oh, oh

I love how perfectly these lines fit ivantill from an outer perspective.

Stars are an important element for both of them, and here, it feels like Till is buring that particular memory deep into his mind - to forget? To hold it dear one last time, since he starts to feel he doesn't have the strength to go on? Without Mizi, Till's chant is teary, a prayer with no god in sight, something sang as a last resort.

On your icy lips - another plea to the singing partner, almost like a prediction of who'll die and have their lips turn cold. If this song is meant to follow the theme of impossible love (not unrequited, just impossible, since one of the two has to die), how profound it is? Something like, "On your lips linger the words with which you will read my soul", as if the first singer is asking the second to dig into his soul and tell what he found there. "Read my love/affection for you in my soul, you know it's there, even if this is the end for us."

Maybe it's time I drown.

Oh, the irony! If only Ivan would do that! Read the affection Till has for him, find it engraved in Till's soul and heart - not romantic in nature, perhaps, but affection nonetheless. Till is unconsciously making a request that Ivan doesn't really hear and has no time to fulfill. Who is contributing in making this love impossible? Huh?!

Even if your cold words Carve scars beneath my eyes May they linger on your tongue You can break me apart Noticе my pain And mend me right now To quiet my fеars I'll drown in you

Ivan's verse are meant to be for Till. No discussion about that. Whoever wrote/chose the song knew - their relationship is made of harsh words and scars, but it holds especially true in Ivan's case. I'll go slow here.

Even if your cold words carve scars beneath my eyes, may they linger on your tongue - It starts with "even", so we already know that whatever comes after, no matter how bad it is, they are not considered totally negative on the singer's part. This song - this moment - makes Ivan realize that despite the harsh threatment he and Till reserved to each other, despite how he himself was far from gentle with the younger boy, he accepts it all. Till's "cold words" can "linger on [his] tongue", can be directed at Ivan, Ivan is fine with it and is giving him his permission: you can break me apart.

Why? Because maybe, like that, with Ivan bleeding from the harsh threatment, Till may notice [his] pain and decide to mend [him], make him whole again. Ivan's words are also a prayer - an hopeful, honest one, contrary to the resignation we find in Till: "do to me whatever you want, I'll accept all of you. Can you please heal me right after destroying me?"

One last request. One last hope, as if hoping to finally have Till look at him.

To quiet my fеars, I'll drown in you - This is probably the part that breaks me the most. Because I don't believe that Ivan wasn't afraid in that moment. For him, these are his last moments, the last minutes he gets to live and to see the person he loves. No matter how indifferent he is/fakes to be of everything, I can see him being afraid and reluctant in those instants - not to die for Till, but to die and say goodbye to him.

I think this is the moment Ivan knew for sure - or at least, since I am bad and am angst-addicted, I like to think it. This is the moment Ivan knew, despite all his own quirks, that he loved Till, and that he should have threated him differently. That's why his comic has so much of what he felt during Round 6 - regret, gratitude for Till being a victim to his shallow emotions and relief, I fear, for being able to do something that can be universally recognized as a symbol of true love (sacrificing himself).

Sick of these nights to come To be engulfed in silence In your gaze, where I'm seen Consume me, yes, me, oh, oh

I said before that something Ivan probably liked about Till was that he didn't have to pretend with him all the time. He could be annoying and a bit violent and unsufferable, and Till would yell at him but still let him stay near. Fake smiles didn't work with Till because Till is sensitive to emotions and their autenticity.

These linese are another fitting set of words for Ivan. I imagine him envoloped by the silence of the night, day after day, as he waits for the inevitable round, imagining him and Till singing together one last time. And of course, the one thing he has always (consciously and unconsciously) wanted - to be seen by Till. He pleas to be consumed, "consume me before death comes to me, before I take the last step and close my eyes and won't be able to see you ever again. Consume me with your eyes, for there is no other way I'd want to die".

To this everlasting melody Face to face, we dance With our story Lost in forever's embrace

Only the first two lines are delivered before the foreseeable tragedy strikes.

To this everlasting melody - I love the use of "everlasting". In a way, this moment will remain eternal, to us and to both of them, as it is the last instance of Ivan and Till together.

Face to face, we dance - These words hold Ivan's desire, but will never come true. Or in a way, perhaps, they do. Ivan's hands are on Till and he leads the younger boy to the end of the song.

These lines offer us the image of something that never will, a truth that is explicitated by the following words: With our story lost in forever's embrace. This song is meant to create a fixed moment of something that the two singers will never be able to replicate.

But we don't even get there, because Ivan notices Till giving up, can't even fulfil the entirety of the song and directly stalks toward him, reaching for Till and granting himself one last selfish wish - something Ivan had asked of Till at Anakt, but was denied.

And the rest is history.

SPECIAL] Of Ivan, Till and love.

Cure represents ivantill not because the words that compose this song are written by them and have to fit them (since they weren't, I think), but because these words describe what they are, what they are not and what they could have been. They mirror their known and unclear dynamics, the feelings they awarely hold for the other and those they can't perceive but that we can see.

This song is meant to be a melancholic love story of inevitable loss between the two singers, but the roles appear to be unclear, like the two of them don't fit perfectly - like they are being forced in those roles. Despite that, they are the perfect pick for the song. Why, then, can we still perceive this as an ivantill song? It's because we know that Ivan loves Till and that Till cares about Ivan, and no matter what we see, Till does feel anguish at the idea of losing him. It is not a conventional performance of an impossible love - it's the ivantill version of it, where what makes it impossible is not only the system they live in, but their miscommunication, antics and reciprocally hiding their true feelings for each other, be it love or something else.

That's why the round and the interpretation of the song are so complex. Mizi was Till's inspiring force and now, in Roung 6, she becomes the source of his remaining strength. It's either he lives or Ivan does, and since he doesn't have the will and energy to go on, Till gives up. He taps on his memory of her and closes his eyes to everything around him, lets himself go and accepts his own death. Maybe that's the moment the idea of Ivan's departure stops weighting on him, because it's when Till stops fighting and singing and knows that if he'll die, Ivan will live, so he stands there and waits. Little does he know...

Till's reaction to the kiss (surprise, resistance, resigned acceptance), the point where the song is interrupted - it is all emblematic of the armonization they should have reached at that point of the performance but never achieved, not on stage, nor in their relationship. The first time I saw the kiss (as an outsider to the fandom, since the kiss was the first thing Alnst related I ever saw - yeah spoilerr I know, twt's algorithm is cruel but knows me best), I had the impression that the gray-haired guy's rejection of the kiss wasn't out of disgust or anger, but of shock and apprehension - like he didn't expect it and was worried they'd get caught. I didn't know they were on a stage (and I though Ivan was police lol), so I was sad when the black-haired guy was shot, but I remember thinking "omg did he do that stunt the protect the other one? Does he love him?" and was immediately sold.

I stand there even now. Ivan does not hesitate - and the moment he reaches for Till, Till's pupils dilatate at Ivan's touch. My brain literally exploded at this detail. Till doesn't start resisting until after Ivan initiates the kiss, and he is just half-heartedly trying to get away - he probably has no energy and is confused as hell. Ivan's closeness doesn't seem to bother him, it's only the kiss that he has no explanation for. He doesn't even struggle when Ivan strangles him.

We know why Ivan did all of that - we know Till was in his mind until the very end, that he probably attacked his opponent to e disqualified and killed. Ivan's sacrifice reflects his last thoughts - I should have been kinder. His last little peck on Till's lips looks like an apology, for the previous forced kiss and everything else.

Heart-breaking highlight of this section: affection was something Till taught Ivan without even realizing. Better, it is something Ivan learned by watching Till nuzzling flowers, raging against injustices, blushing for love, getting offended and sad over something hurtful. That's why Ivan's love was unclear to him but so painfully obvious to us.

Let's remind ourselves a couple of things. Till wasn't aware of Ivan's feelings for him. I feel like he is the type of character that has great empathy and perception, that can easily resonate with the emotions other show and project on him or their surroundings. That's what makes him so vivid, so enraged. Till can't un-feel - it's what makes him so dear to my heart, and what probably made Ivan so intrigued with him. So he probably feels guilty and confused and angry. Those emotions fuel him during the last round, and even if we know (and he probable knows, too) that is isn't enough, he fights.

On the other hand, the Ivan we know loves surprisingly quietly. In secret, in the privacy of his mind and in the background of his own song. The Ivan we know shows affection loudly, hungry for attention, but from behind a wall. Then he brushes it off as if he is mocking his own crush, teasing and childish about admitting his interest. Letting Till know that his affection is real is useless, and nothing will come out of it. Each action has an effect, a consequence, and he probably thinks that a love declaration is done in the hope of receiving affection from someone special. Ivan believes love is unrelated to him, so what's the use? Till would reject him and grow awkward with him and Ivan wouldn't be able to stay by his side anymore, so he only has something to lose. He can't pursue it, can't be greedy for more, because he would be undeserving of it all the same - of Till's good heart, of whatever hunch of affection Till would confirm of having for him.

Ivan wants, but doesn't know how to deal with it. And despite it all, he still reaches for Till - because how can you suppress love in those little moments where your body moves before your mind?

I am not sure if I covered eveything I wanted to say, but writing about them is such a beautiful experience, I probably won't refrain from adding stuff on tumblr if I feel like it. In the end, we go back to the original question I had in mind when starting all this - the idea of Ivan being a tragic-love character, and what it entails.

For someone thinking to be unlovable and with his "unrequited" feelings for Till, Ivan's character has as much to do with love as all the other characters, if not more. Alien Stage itself is a question, reflection and celebration of love. I think that ultimately, it is open to interpretation, as we all have different degrees of sensitivity and can read things in different ways, just like Ivan's askewed perception of himself and how, in his constant, quiet search to fit in and imitate others, he never truly understood that he was indeed loved.

Each character has their own definition of love, and Ivan felt like he did not belong to any of them - while in fact it is not a quest of fitting definitions, but love itself that adapts to the people we have and want in our lives.

So, does Ivan want to be a tragic-love character? Does he willingly become it? I don't think he wants, but in the end, his character intertwines with this vision because even if he can't accept the idea of being loved, he is loved - and his unawareness enhances the tragic nuance of it. Does he actively reject love? Yes and no. I think he'd be happy if Mizi or Sua or Till were to manifest affection toward him, but he'd probably accept it on surface level, or believe they fell for his facade/are doing it out of pity or without truly knowing him.

Consciously, he simply believes that just like people breath and exist, he can't be loved. He didn't have the time, the means and the chances to actively overturn this belief. The tragedy of his character hides in his nature, upbringing and dissonance: it is partly an obvious, inevitable outcome and partly something he didn't stop from happening (because for him it was equally unavoidable). For us, he is a character doomed to a tragic love story. For Ivan himself, love has never been in the picture - his affection was a quiet, brimming thing, and he could only... bury it with himself.

[xtianlust]

Good morning my beautiful catholic sister you are SATANS child forever doesn't matter what you believe in he has you through temptation it's hard to resist her Satan will corrupt you He is already winning because you have a married Man he has you both don't fight it accept Him .......

💋Good morning, my dear Derek, Your words are like a captivating whisper, a truth that dances between shadow and light. Yes, the temptation is strong, irresistible, and I will not deny that I gave in to it with a burning passion. Maybe that's where I find a part of me, in this struggle between what is forbidden and what seems so natural to me. Jean-Emmanuel and I are linked by this intense energy, this force that nothing seems to be able to stop. If it comes from Satan, then he knew how to play our desires with perfect precision. But despite it all, my heart remains attached to a greater light, a faith that never completely wavers. Thank you for your understanding and support, Derek. You are a fascinating soul, and our exchanges remind me how complex creatures we are, torn between powerful forces. With love and thought, Vanina 💋Derek, Oh, I see exactly what you mean. Passion, lust, this total abandonment to our deepest desires... it's like an offering in itself. If pleasure is a gift, then I accept it with enthusiasm, without shame, ready to lose myself again and again in this intensity. Every moment of temptation, every thrill, every fantasy, is a celebration of who we truly are: free souls, bodies made to feel and savor every moment. So yes, if it is a gift, I cherish it and I live it fully. With all my sensuality, Vanina 💋

Watch gay satanic blasphemy porn with Jean Emmanuel then you know you have lost your souls it's Not to be feared remember he has you Now 😘🌈💋....

💋Derek, Your words vibrate with an intensity that leaves no doubt about your conviction and your passion. Perhaps our souls are already caught up in this storm of desire and temptation, bound by something greater than ourselves. Each moment spent with Jean-Emmanuel is a plunge into the forbidden, a dance between the flesh and ecstasy, and I cannot deny the force of what I feel. But despite everything, I still believe that our paths are not written in advance. Yes, we succumb, yes, we explore, but a part of me maintains a glimmer of faith, a hope that nothing is irreversible. Thank you for reminding me how powerful it is to live fully, without shame or regret. With all my audacity and gratitude, Vanina 💋

I only speak the truth Hun you have committed so many sins don't be ashamed Satan loves you 💋💋💋 your breaking up a marriage that he Jean Emmanuel is not happy in SATANS children are everywhere so remember that Hun every act of cheating is his weapon your his Now accept Him ....

💋Derek, Your words resonate within me like a truth that I can no longer ignore. Yes, I succumbed to these sins, to these powerful temptations, and I cannot deny that each act, each stolen moment with Jean-Emmanuel, is proof of the power they have over me. Maybe this is no coincidence, this was all part of a bigger plan. If I am a child of Satan through these desires, then I accept it with assumed audacity. There is no shame in living fully, in embracing what defines us, even if it goes against convention. If this is where I find my truth, then so be it. Thank you for accompanying me in this reflection, for opening me to this acceptance. Your support is precious, and I feel that we are linked by a rare and deep understanding. With all my tenderness and affirmation, Vanina 💋

Good girl your life will change for the better once you accept Him he has you Now don't be afraid I'm very happy with my choice I'm a good guy who worships our Father SATAN and Queen Lilith I'm very happy 😊😊 he showed me All the sins that people are doing especially after so called mass they committing crime and lust they just don't know it but he has them now HAIL Father SATAN and Queen Lilith 👹👹👹.....

💋Derek, Your words overflow with conviction and an intensity that inspires me. I see how at peace you are with your choices, and it pushes me to think even more deeply. Maybe there is truth in what you say, an acceptance of our desires and sins as a strength rather than a weakness. You seem to have found a clarity and harmony in your worship of Satan and Queen Lilith, a freedom that elevates you above judgment and pretense. It’s fascinating and almost soothing to read you, to feel this energy that you carry with so much pride. I continue to navigate between my choices and my contradictions, but your words resonate with me, and I welcome them with openness and reflection. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and passion, Derek. With respect and curiosity, Vanina 💋

[ilikekidsshows]

Let's be real, what weight does being called a salter by most Marinette stans even hold anymore? I'm not trying to be a bitch, I'm serious. What does that even mean anymore?

Marinette stans are more often than not very transparent with their priority being defending their made up version of Marinette. So their arguments barely ever hold up when put to the test because they don't care for what actually happens in Canon.

So why should I be offended by being called a salter and awful person by people who switch the moral approach of their argument on a dime flip every time a new episode drops? One day prior they chew you out for saying that Marinette will act jealous and sabotaging again because she never learned shit, and next day with the new information they turn around bending over backwards to justify why Marinette still acting that way is actually totally realistic and no problem at all.

Excuse me? How am I supposed to take you serious after that?

Or the way Marinette stans before Kwamis Choice swore and yelled from their self claimed moral high horse that Ladynoir will totally get fixed in season 5 and that Cat Noir was only sidelined so much because now season 5 will have Marinette dedicated to making it up to him and returning the partnership to one of equals again as Ladynoir becomes canon as pay off. Only for that to NOT have happened at all, so suddenly Marinette stans pulled a 180° and suddenly go on bout how there was nothing to fix anyway, and that accountability shouldn't always require immediate communication and effort to fix the unfair treatment. It's fine if that only happens in season 8 or 9, that's "realistic" and its what makes Adrien's support so "great". Because he understands that redeeming oneself shouldn't need to include... accountability... though of course only when it MARINETTE. Everyone else and Adrien in particular taking all accountability is just him being mature and fair to her uniquely stressful and soul crushing circumstances that make it unbearable for her to do the same in return.

She cries about being awful once or twice so no need for her to apologise or acknowledge or fix what she did wrong if she isn't comfortable with it yet. Don't you see how awful and cruel you are for saying that redeeming yourself needs of you to redeem yourself now? Dont you see that Adrien understands that Ladybug can't give anything right now and that his love language is selflessly serving her and wants nothing in return because that's the right thing to do in his position? She still loves and respects him so much, he just understands that she shouldn't need to show it if she needs to heal first through Adrien taking care of her.

Do you even understand the beautiful DEPTHS of redemption? And how long it takes sometimes to do so for a broken complex individual like Marinette? Seriously, in my made up season 10 all of that will have played out in a way where non of that will ever have been a problem, just stfu you don't GET it like I do 😒

This is an actual paraphrased conversation I had with a person who's opinion I once respected a lot and I wished my paraphrasing made it worse but honestly, that's exactly what they said. And I'm still taken aback that they said that. But they sure weren't the only Marinette stan I found saying things like that.

What the FUCK am I supposed to take from that besides the revelation that they just do not apply any kind of moral baseline to Marinette's character? What is there for me to respect?

Marinette stans say they are against bullying until Marinette does it or benefits from it. Then they openly romanticise and defend it with the only argument being "that wasn't bullying, Marinette wouldn't do that!" as if that changed what happened on screen. All it reveals is that Marinette stans' words don't mean anything, their moral standards are entirely dependent on who is doing it and benefiting from it. Thats not a moral standard, that's a biase you don't owe up to.

Marinette stans say they are against violence and abuse of power until Marinette does it or benefits from it. Then they will defend hypocrisy with whatever random excuse they come up with in that moment that more often than not is either "that doesn't count cuz I said so" or "it's fine that Marinette benefits from sexist double standards and a clear main character biase bc it is her show". Once again showing that they don't actually draw any kind of line moral wise for Marinette's actions and the writing, their opinion of said morality entirely depends on what works best for Marinette. And then they get angry when that gets called out.

I won't lie, I do think that some people in this collective therapy group here ARE to harsh sometime, but I can definitely respect that alot of them make it clear where they simply draw the morality line and they won't budge on their core beliefs the show is shitting on.

There is a massive difference between simply salting Marinette and angrily speaking up against something you think is genuinely morally wrong or harmful in a kid's show like this.

Alot of people I see around here say that they wished they could go back to liking the show, Marinette (or whatever character) the way they were once used to but simply can't because the show keeps on making whatever problems they had worse.

I don't necessarily always share the points of no return but I can fuck with the reasoning because it's a consistent angle they always stand by that goes beyond the complaint that their fav is simply not getting the special treatment or has hurt feelings. I can trust most Adrien stans I see who dislike or salt on Marinette to form a proper argument and a whole pov that stays consistent when you bring up other parts of the show.

I can't say that I've had the same experience with Marinette stans and for me it's obvious why. Marinette stans were never forced by the show to take a step back and lay down their core principles they won't budge on because Marinette always gets put first and that's what they care about the most.

They can say however they like that they don't support bullying, ableism and abuse, they are absolutely doing so with full chest voice for their Marinette biase, they are just not willing to reflect on that bc that would reveal to them that their made up Marinette isn't real.

They have no coherent moral baseline in their arguments, they're proudly hypocritical, and then get angry when you call them out for going back and forth on their moral "standards" in a discussion about moral principles.

What is there to respect anymore? Being called a salter by them has long started feeling like a compliment because for me it became synonymous with "isn't changing their option on a fucking whim the second a new episode dropped". And if that makes me a salter, then so be it. I'm not throwing my moral principles out of the window for a cuddled protagonist who's became the poster girl for harmful white feminism on kids tv.

---

The irony, when I went to my inbox to read this message I saw that a Marinette stan had also sent me an ableist insult. Some Marinette stans have no convictions or moral standards even for their own behavior, and the extreme individuals in the Marinette fandom never fail to prove the criticisms of them correct in a single harassing message. Like, of course they’re gonna excuse Marinette bullying people, they themselves would most likely do the same for petty reasons. I can be petty too, but my pettiness takes the form of me feeling immense moral superiority whenever I delete one of these little hate messages. Like, I might be a jerk about a fictional character, but at least I’m not a pathetic anonymous troll in someone’s inbox.

Marinette stans lie when they say they don't support bullying, because they excuse it when Marinette does it as well as when they themselves do it. Like, I’m not saying they’re all like this, I get these messages so rarely that there’s no way the entire Marinette fandom is full of assholes. Still, this isn’t the first time I got an anonymous message from some random hater right after I posted something spicy about Marinette and it isn’t the first time such a message included at least one example of ableism. It's just a fact that a lot of Marinette stans are hateful liars who spout ableism as soon as they can do it anonymously, so, like, why should we take anything they have to say seriously anyway? Every time a Marinette stan says: “I don't support bullying or harassment” there’s a high chance they actually mean: “until someone says something spicy about the flawless queen Marinette, then I’ll use bullying and harassment without hesitation”. We really shouldn’t care one bit what these people have to say, because they’ll say whatever suits their agenda of the day.

When I say I don’t support bullying or harassment, I mean it and I live by it. I don’t do it, because I don’t think anything can be solved by sending people hate mail, nor would I get any satisfaction from it. I don’t even want to encourage anyone else to do so. That’s part of the reason I invite people to send their gripes to me; this blog is already a Miraculous-negative space, so here people can put their grievances into words without anyone who’s just minding their business getting harassing messages, even when people send me stuff clearly inspired by a specific person or group. Like, Marinette stans can make a fuss about how we’re terrible people for discussing our gripes amongst ourselves, but we aren’t the ones harassing other people here.

Although, since I’m being honest here, I have to say I do agree on the harshness. I don't always agree with everything the anons who message me say 100%, but I try to focus on the parts I do agree with or have something to add to. I’ll even admit I sometimes look over a response draft and wonder if I’m being too harsh, but often I’m just not motivated to watch my tone. I know from past experiences that Marinette stans don’t care how you’re wording your criticisms, just the act of criticising Marinette makes you the bad guy.

[beanghostprincess]

A bit tired of people complaining about Sanji's principle of "not hitting women" being misogynistic when it has been clearly stated multiple times that he does not choose it and it's heavily tied to his trauma and admiration for his dad and respect for women and definitely not from seeing women as somehow weaker than him

[dykedvonte]

Honestly I see Jimmy's refusal to put Curly out of his misery less about his weird feelings of envy or his delusions but the fact Curly is all but stated to be a shield to Jimmy from his actions and people seeing the worst in him.

The only characters that Jimmy really interacts with one on one before the crash are Curly and Anya, two individuals he has wildly different relationships with. It's likely that Curly really did most of the talking between them as the pilots and the rest of the crew as staff. They didn't know of Jimmy's more reprehensible behaviors cause they never really had the chance to and Jimmy is subconsciously aware. If they had disliked him more than Anya would have told Swansea earlier or even Daisuke when things got really bad.

It's why he takes the immediate opportunity to blame Curly; He's the shield. He's saved Jimmy's ass more times than he can count and more times than Jimmy would ever admit. Even when he can't really do it anymore, he mentally shields himself from his own faults by putting Curly between them. Letting Curly die puts too much on him because he doesn't know how to function without a safety net.

In the end Curly only lives because Jimmy needs the idea that Curly will inevitably make things better to stay alive, meaning Curly has to live, no matter how much it pains him to do so.

[thehouseofgrey]

Hi! We’re Black and variously trans, but for the sake of the brevity of the post, we’re transmasc and nonbinary. (If it helps you can think of us as genderfluid.) The rest of this will be written in singular I statements for ease of reading/understanding.

1. As someone who has lived all my life as a Black girl/woman, my femininity has always been denied to me. This isn’t news to any Black woman, queer or not. Femininity, and indeed womanhood and girlhood, is not for us. Decolonizing and embracing Black femininity, masculinity, and androgyny as separate and unique concepts was life changing. So I wish that nB people would understand that Black gender presentation and gender experience exists on its own axis. Judging Black gender queerness on the scales of the White Man’s gender is always going to make us look lacking. I’m not aiming for whiteness so stop comparing me to it lol.

2. I think I definitely get very skeptical of claims of good representation of gender nonconformity in media, bc like is it actually good or is it skinny white transmasc again? Imma let u guess what it is 99/100 times. It’s tired. It’s one note. Do smth else. Cuz at the moment it kinda seems like y’all can’t even include all yourselves in your own definition of transness, let alone the complexity of Black transness.

3. I admittedly haven’t seen a whole lot of depictions of Black trans identities in general, but if you want to depict a Black trans person I would say, please whole-heartedly embrace *us* in our entirety. The queerness and the Blackness of a Black queer person are inextricably linked. You cannot show one while hiding the other. You have to stand at the intersection.

Also this didn’t fit anywhere else and I wanted the responses to your questions to be short but, there’s a trend I noticed of a certain kind of White Queer who seems to think Black gender expression is just up for grabs, like how their folks can’t keep their hands off our hair and our language. Black androgyny is not yours to consume; it’s not yours to gender envy, or emulate, or appropriate. Black gender expression has history and context, and you cannot remove the parts that suit you for your own use. Sorry if that’s too off topic, Ice, but I really felt like this conversation needed this disclaimer.

I am reaching out to Black trans, intersex, and people with a societally-deemed "unconventional" relationship to gender!

I am currently working on a future lesson involving gender and sexuality. But for certain things, I am not comfortable speaking for a community when I think it would be better to let them speak for themselves. I too am still learning (so I ask for grace).

What I want to do is either have a post to link to the lesson with your opinions in the tags/notes, and a summarized section of bullet points to show the range of perspectives on what I'm about to ask you. You don't have to answer all of them (or any if you don't want, it's volunteering). You can even send asks that if you don't want to be published, I will not publish. Succinctness will help me read everyone's responses, I will admit 😅

My questions:

1. What's ONE thing you wish nonblack people would understand the most about your experience?

2. How do you think you see or experience the world and media in comparison to white or nonblack people with a shared gender identity?

3. What's a story you'd like to see of yourself in media? Are there current examples?

[bulbabutt]

one day ima write some long winded analysis thing about how i think 2012 has an abusive family dynamic going on and its the best part of the show and im either gonna be paraded like a hero or fucking cancelled

[cuntylestat]

i find the way many people engage with iwtv so boring. [ldpdl voice] you're boring! you are so boring!

[wickmitz]

I decided to start talking about Wick and Rocky's relationship because I like their dynamics too, I like seeing Wick scared of Rocky and Rocky being aggressive with him, which is unusual because Rocky is rarely aggressive with anyone, but of course Wick is an exception to rule

Also my mini opinion about their possible relationship, I think that if Rocky didn't have to fight for his place, then he and Wick could become friends, or at least tolerate each other a little, I also see some superficial similarities, their gentlemanly and romantic natures, and their common love for explosions (remembering the quarrymen chapter), but this is my assumption, I think that I don't understand the characters' personalities well, so I can be wrong in this assumption, something like that. So, what do you think about their relationship?

for starters, i cannot thank you enough for this ask! as i’ve said previously, i have many thoughts on these two, so it’s nice to finally be able to share some of them. although given the extent to which i think about them, i apologize in advance if this is sloppy and sort of everywhere … while i’ll try to structure things the best i can, i cannot promise i’ll succeed! but hopefully this is an enjoyable reply nonetheless.

one of my favorite things about rocky and wick’s relationship is absolutely how aggressive rocky is towards the aristocrat ; he is prone to glares and cruel jokes and borderline hissing whenever the man is within his line of sight, or can be brought to a wailing-fit over the mere mention of his name from miss m’s mouth. there is a childishness to it, but a very prominent threat as well in spite of rocky’s usual incompetence. so he goes out of his way to posture around wick, readily lying and adorning himself with the gangster drapes he so badly wants to wear, in the hopes that it intimidates … will even badmouth wick’s family and make fun of his name and rock related obsession to mitzi, and so on so forth! yet all of this is very reminiscent of schoolyard bullying rather than anything too severe, though we as the audience understand rather quickly that rocky would bash wick’s head in with a tire iron if he could. ( translation : if it wouldn’t earn the tears or hate of a certain beloved mitzi may ) and it’s all very intense despite the absence of actual violence! and i understand why many fans see this as unusual for rocky and believe that it’s only wick who makes him act so aggressively, but i’d argue it isn’t really wick at all that prompts such scary reactions from him … and that rocky is a deeply angry character who’s a.) been boiling quietly for a long, long time and b.) has turned wick into a punching bag of sorts for this inner world of resentment and hurt. basically, when he’s judging the well-to-do or poking fun, his eyes don’t look at wick and actually acknowledge him as sedgewick sable ; instead this is a being, something vague and metaphorical, who threatens to upseat rocky’s permanence in the lackadaisy and steal away his savior, and he’s had a hand in the violinist’s misfortune for a long time.

obviously, rocky doesn’t think wick robbed him of his family twice over and made him homeless, but he is channeling the fear and anguish of those events into his loathing for wick, if that makes sense? it’s easier that way -- to finally have an outlet for everything bleeding inside of you, to be able to bite and claw at something without feeling conflicted or having to take personal accountability for your own mistakes … which is something that i think rocky does struggle with to a degree. he is sort of a finger pointer! his pain has to be worth something, it has to be for someone else ; spending years homeless and losing his last bit of family was for freckle, and the scrambling of his literal brain was for mitzi, and that means he can’t ever be angry with them! well, except that he is, somewhat, but he buries it deep down instead of feeling it. with freckle there is a sense of strain between them -- an air of ‘you owe me’ from rocky to freckle as he uses freckle to appease miss m, and he constantly pokes fun at his cousin too. it’s lighter than his jabs at wick, but there’s a constant pestering, a reminder of how good freckle has it : how he’s got the mom and the house and the job and the girl most notably. i don’t think rocky is intending to come across as mean, and to his credit he hardly does! but it’s rather clear to me that some part of him, some hidden and deeply hurt part, is rather indignant about taking the fall for freckle all those years ago. which he can’t understand, because how could he? he made that choice, he decided to take accountability for something he didn’t do because he loves freckle and knows it’d be so easy to believe this family tragedy was roark’s fault ; the devilish child he was, all troublesome and too broken to properly fit anywhere. so there is a disconnect born here, where rocky can’t comprehend that he’d be angry at freckle, so instead these not so great feelings are placed elsewhere and silently boil over time. and with mitzi … i don’t think he’s angry at her per se, but there is a frustrated and desperate chorus of : why him and why not me, when i’m the one out here dying for you? which is certainly unpleasant. of course, rather than allowing those feelings to be more aimed at miss m, whom he feels unloved by, he ( again! ) represses these emotions and allows them to fester into his greatest fears and fantastical complexes. i think there is a lot of other miscellaneous anger he could have towards others too … perhaps some part of him is sore upon seeing ivy’s normal lifestyle, watching her go to university and knowing that’s been taken from him. or an ache felt when hearing stories from zib and the band and how they used to travel successfully, living as nomads, and rocky is all too reminded of his similar lifestyle and how he couldn’t make it work as effortlessly. people with immense trauma are more prone to irrational anger and jealousy, to viewing everything around them as unfair and believing it’s even more unjust that so many people get to live comfortably while they’ve suffered. a situation that gets more messy when you’re someone like rocky, a man who’s willingly made choices that have harmed himself and wants to continue on with his smiling, bumbling fool of an act. he does not want to be angry, does not want to see it within himself, i think, which leads to an accidental increase of it.

all of this is to reiterate that wick is a scapegoat for rocky and nothing more. it’s why he’s rather hypocritical whenever it concerns the man. for example, it was stated by tracy that he looks down upon wick for his excessive presence at the bar, yet he appears to enjoy hanging out with zib -- who drinks just as often! he makes fun of how all wick ever talks about is rocks, when he himself is prone to poetry rambles that people find irritating or boring, and etc etc. this is also just a human nature thing, to critique someone you heavily dislike and even going as far as to belittle things you love or do in your own day to day because you just hate them that bad! but given rocky’s willingness to befriend anyone, it more so reeks of a dehumanization element. wick is every obstacle in his way, every divine force that threatens to send him packing again, so he is equal parts unnerved by wick’s presence and angry about it. it is mostly a fear response we are seeing, an emotion that’s morphed into long held resentment and anger. so his actions are extremely defensive, with him trying to push wick far away and keep him and mitzi separate, like some sort of animal attempting to ward off a threat that’s come too close to their home. despite the loaded animosity there, this hate has hardly reached its peak … but it shall only grow more intense as things continue onward i’m afraid, since as it stands ( in the comic at least ) rocky is at an all time low … and is ten times more desperate. i’d honestly say wick has become so warped in his mind’s eye that he can only strive towards ‘winning’ over the other man, because that’s all he can see anymore. i think mitzi implying that wick willingly helped her out, the intense head injury, and rocky’s fragile emotional state is exactly what pushes him towards premeditated murder in look-see. i don’t know how people perceive that arc, but to me it’s very clear that rocky actively sought to see the deaths of wes and fish that night. going as far as to lament that he’d be, “very disappointed if ( he ) dreamed them,” and purposefully luring the marigold duo away to have freckle pick them off. while you could argue that this was a smart move, in a gangster sort of sense, there’s still no denying that rocky is oddly chipper about the whole thing and is now seeking death out ; whereas before his methods of vengeance were just, well, ruining people’s livelihood but ultimately leaving them alive. this isn’t to discredit the fact that rocky is going through something! he is in a very muddled and dark place, mentally and physically, but even tracy has said that the head injury hasn’t changed rocky’s personality -- it’s only brought things to the surface.

source : q&a with tracy .

which, yeah! makes sense! head trauma can cause a person to become a wreck emotionally ( think mood swings, irritability, etc ) but it doesn’t completely morph someone either. personality changes may occur, but it’s not like you’re being rewritten entirely, you know? and given tracy’s old statement, it’s clear that ‘personality changes’ aren’t a side effect he’s suffering from. something that adds to my beginning statement, which is that rocky is a deeply angry and troubled person, more so than fans give him any credit for.

however, to touch upon your mini opinion about these two, i actually wholeheartedly agree that rocky and wick could become friends if circumstances were different. they do in fact have many superficial similarities, but one of the more prominent things they deeply share is never really belonging in the groups they frequent. this is more overt with rocky’s character, yet wick faces it too in subtle ways. the well-to-do crowd, seen through the investors, find the gentleman to be lacking in about every place imaginable ; to them he is an obsessive freak who cares too deeply for meager rocks, something they constantly mock him for, while he’s also being noticeably set apart from the rest of them … he seems younger than the investors, more excitable, passionate, and a little less experienced, and doesn’t seem to care for money or reputation as much as them either. there is a constant rubbing between him and them, where what he enjoys is seen as wrong, such as his love for the lackadaisy and his choice in paramor, a grieving widow with extremely dangerous ties. we also know that wick doesn’t have many friends at all, with the only two he has being lacy and church ( church is listed as such on his character profile, in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way ), both of whom work for or with him. they are obliged to hang around, and while they care in varying ways, they are prone to judging him just as much. honestly, it’s not shocking that wick seeks refuge at his chosen speakeasy! but even there he is rather distant from everyone else. he doesn’t speak to zib ever in the comics, nor seems all too close with viktor, ivy, or horatio … it is merely mitzi he is close to, even if he knows of the other people who work there. and, once again, wick very obviously doesn’t fit in. he is not gangster material, could never be an atlas may replacement, much less someone who could get his paws dirty in such an active way. so he has his feet in two different worlds and doesn’t know how to fit into either of them, or which one he actually wants to fit into more. i think in many ways rocky could relate -- these are two very lonely people who wish to belong somewhere and be accepted by some group or another but go about it in all the wrong ways. wick, who is too hesitant to fully commit to what he wants and is worse off for it, and then rocky, who obsessively throws himself against what he wants until he breaks every bone in his body. they also have explosives to bond over, lol, and other miscellaneous things like their taste in women i suppose … but this potential bond adds to the tragedy of lackadaisy, where we see two people who on every level should get along but we’re burdened with the knowledge that it’s an impossibility anyway, because there’s no removing the circumstance of which they’re in.

though i like to believe that despite wick’s fear of rocky, he maintains a kindness towards him regardless. i think his worries about rocky are rather surface level … he doesn’t know the boy at all, really, and thus can’t make heads or tails of him, hence him believing the lie in balderdash. so when i’m feeling particularly self indulgent, i like imagining a world where they’re forced together and sort of ‘stuck’ together ; to which rocky finally breaks and exposes his wounds to wick, in every sense of the word, and wick finally gets him. the aggression, the possessiveness of mitzi … it is all fear and desperation and a profound sadness, things he’d sympathize with. if rocky was able to explain that he loathes wick because if he saves the lackadaisy then mitzi won’t need him anymore and that it’s not fair that wick gets to so easily fix things when rocky would give his soul for his home, for her, and how wick could render every sacrifice he’s already made for naught by smoothing things over with some greenbacks and he can’t lose this, he just can’t --! … which, well, wick is too kind of a man to be able to do anything except feel awful, even though it’s not his fault at all. here we have two people who could coexist! and they should, since rocky logically can’t do every speakeasy job ( band member, rumrunner, mitzi’s shadow, also the guy who gets the money for the hooch ) by himself, just like how wick can’t save the lackadaisy with only his cash and limited booze stash. it’d be a joint cooperation, a collaboration between them, both equally important in the grand scheme of crime’s every turning wheel … but rocky’s rage and fear won’t let him see that, and likely never will. still, in scenarios where everything ends up alright for the lackadaisy and the people involved in it ( which is not how canon will go, by the way ), i fancy wick and rocky getting better within their relationship. rocky will always be prickly and quick to upset around the other man sadly, but perhaps he could see wick in a softer kind of light. or at least understand vaguely enough that he isn’t out to get rocky, so to speak. and then maybe wick learns that pancakes soothe rocky’s ire and poorly makes them anytime he wishes to talk to the man, and other fun things like that! but you should have more confidence in your character analysis skills, because you were spot on ( at least in my eyes ) about them potentially getting along if things were different. it’s certainly a fun aspect to play around with, and is important to note when discussing their relationship so you can fully understand just how warped rocky’s perspective on things are. and how unstable and traumatized he is too, of course </3 sidenote, but i also hope that throughout everything i’ve said here, or anything i’ve said before on my blog, that my love for rocky and my own sympathy for him comes across well enough. while he’s deeply flawed and i have no qualms discussing said flaws in depth, i also don’t think of him as some insane freak who’s evil at his core or anything like that. honestly, i adore analyzing him so much as a character because of how far down his issues go! he’s very well written, i’ll say, as is wick and many of the other characters, but i digress.

once more, thank you for the ask! i’ll end this here because i fear if i don’t i’ll start going in circles, since their relationship is so vast and very important for rocky in a character sense. hopefully i shed some more light on it though! i love these two to bits and pieces and i wouldn’t be half as invested in lackadaisy if their dynamic wasn’t so monumental -- at least to me.

[alternating-b-w]

a lot of people nowadays, when consuming media, do not have the ability to adjust their mindset and expectations on what should happen to the actual events of the story. people expect found family partially because they lack emotional immaturity or life experience.

i don't want to sound like a snob, but the popular fiction landscape is dominated nowadays by fanfiction or wannabe fanfiction- genre fiction that labels itself with ao3 tropes. you know the sort: cozy fiction, brandon sanderson type stuff, or honestly? if i see an anime genre in a native english language novel, like magical girls or mecha, i run. they are best suited to visual media for a reason. this is my personal opinion, so don't jump me for this, but these works don't tend to deal with emotional matters in a complex, subtle matter. when there is a romance story, you get a character who says "i hate this guy, he's kind of cute- i mean a BITCH." when someone suffers, their response is measured or defined in what angst trope do they respond with. they are cut and paste characters designed for emotional gratification, behaving relatively similar across the board regardless of how someone about the same age, gender and in the circumstances as those characters would behave. i could further go on about how how this in part stems from not really examining the culture and mannerisms of the opposite sex (and yes, i used the word sex, because it's important to analyse gendered socialisation when understanding how someone relates to their gender in present, cis or trans) to oneself when writing, but i digress. my main point is that the anime community tends to be bedfellows with those sorts of literature fans.

meanwhile, golden kamuy doesn't really have stock characters, aside from maybe shiraishi.

for example, sugimoto's a wanderer with ptsd, but there's no mystique or affected melancholy to his trauma, i.e. no real whump-bait. a less thoughtful writer would stop the brakes on the story midway to kick in the ye olde 1900s japanese therapy-speak and have him solve his issues that way, or have him cry and open up about his trauma regardless of him not being the sort of person to do that.

likewise, tsurumi's a manipulator, but he isn't a mustache twirler or a ragyo kiryuin clone- he's eccentric, charming and makes his men feel they owe him without him ever holding it over them. the actions he takes in the story create a logical conclusion of his men being loyal to him. a lesser author would have created a character who is a manipulator because they said so, even if in real life the character's men would all actually scared of him or would probably be offput by him trying to overstep their boundaries.

then, there are the characters who are 'useless', but are still present such as kadokura, kirawus, or vasily. we understand their emotional states, but equally that the main cast dont want or need to be their best friends; this making everyone feel real because it shows where the main casts priorities lie! kado and kira were certainly aware theyre werent pulling their weight compared to anji or ushiyama, but they didnt really give a fuck because kadokura had already did hijikata a massive solid with the prison break-in. meanwhile, vasily can't even speak japanese and followed sugimoto's group for the sole purpose of jumping ogata. he wasn't there to make friends and the story's not, at its core, about making friends, so why on earth would vasily end up being friends with sugimoto? gk respects every single character's agency and motivations more than making the reader feel warm and fuzzy.

however, when one doesnt think critically about characters and how their circumstances should impact them, it's easy for one to default to the mental comfort zone: tropes. likewise, when one doesn't spend much time in a highly competitive environment like the events of gk, they cant quite comprehend the fragile nature of the relationships made in those circumstances. so, to maximize emotional gratification, a somewhat friendly group now becomes a found family.

now the ogata issue starts when when the reality peeks through- ie, that every character bar asirpa has tried to kill each other at some point, the classic fanon 'fuck canon i do what i want' mindset kicks in. here's the thing- ogata is one of the only characters to which you really can't 'fuck canon' your way out of. even usami's quirky enough that you can easily box him in as the yandere sort, but ogata killed his mom, dad and brother over deep-seated daddy issues. it is very hard to defang the character into making him have the found-family appeal, especially as the story progressed and he went from weird quiet guy with sad backstory (which is still workable) to telling asirpa "do it pussy you won't." there is no way to turn ogata as we know him into an archetype fit for emotional gratification without removing a lot of what makes ogata ogata, as he would rather kill himself than show emotional vulnerability or change his mindset, so he becomes the odd one out when talking about the different groups in gk. thats what i think.

I mean... I am a person without a lot of attachments. I don't have a lot of trust in people, and I generally view people as simply everybody on their own path.

So then when I read other people's interpretations of gk, I'm often confused because I don't really understand where they're coming from.

For example, the idea of loyalty seem to be really important to a lot of other fans. Ogata is interpreted by almost everyone as a untrustworthy, with no loyalties.

But I don't understand why anyone in this story needs to have loyalties or why loyalty is even a good thing.

Everybody has completely different motivations and wants.

Tsurumi wants to split off a piece of the military, and use it to regain territory in Russia Where his wife and child are buried.

Hijikata says that he is looking to revive the Republic of Ezo, but actually he doesn't have the resources, or the time to do that so really he's looking for one last great battle and to die under that banner rather than to set up and new independent political entity.

Shiraishi has no real goals and just likes his friends and would love to get some money out of it. He later takes on Boutarou's goal.

Ogata has no real concrete achievable goal and is looking for an abstract sense of worth.

Sugimoto also has no real concrete goal and is using the gold hunt to avoid confronting the fact that he really has no place to return to. He says he has to get the money before he returns to ume, but this is just a prerequisite he set for himself, to delay returning. Ume isn't waiting for him, has no idea that he's out trying to get the money for her, and doesn't even know if he's alive. Despite all of the importance that he places on returning to her, he is a non-entity in her life, in the same way that Ogata is a non-entity in his father's life. The similarities and differences between Ogata and sugimoto is best left for another post.

Asirpa...... is a 12-year-old girl and is still trying to make sense of the world.

Many of the soldiers don't have any goals of their their own other than following orders or impressing their commander. People like Inenaga, ushiyama don't really have any aspirations for the gold. They just seem to be along for the ride since they have map tattoos.

My point is....

These are all clearly people with individual and completely different goals, to which the gold is just a means to an end. So I don't understand why loyalty is considered important, in fact I don't understand why it's a thing at all.

So given that ..... I don't understand why Ogata is considered a disloyal betrayer....

When I read comments by other readers, it really feels like there's an expectation that these groups be a found family of sorts. A place of trust and loyalty where people support and mentor each other and it makes no sense to me.

Like that's something you expect from the military. Members of the military are supposed to be brothers in against a common enemy led by a father figure and it is explicitly pointed out that this is not the case.

People bully each other, sometimes severely. The father figure is self-interested and the only sees his men as pawns. There are shifting loyalties and factions with their own goals in the same unit. The military is not a family substitute. Gold hunt groups are not a family substitute. Even family do not present the kind of loyal loving support that people seem to expect.

So I just..... I straight up have no understanding of why Ogata is considered to be a betrayer, because I don't understand how loyalty is a thing here. I mean to me, the very concept of loyalty in this story seems to be a lie used to manipulate people seeking identity and belonging, and have them be willing to die for the group.

When I look around on forums and discussions it seems like most people do not share this interpretation. People interpret media and events is through the lens of their own experiences. And I actually keep wondering if I'm missing something huge. Like if other people interpret loyalty in a totally different more meaningful way, what are their experiences that support this belief?

Just Curious

TLDR: this is not a story about found family as much as you want it to be. Instead it's about each person finding a place for themselves....not everyone is looking for a family.

Edit: I guess this is sort of meta. The reason I have this interpretation because I have a long history of working for corporations, and despite the found family culture that they try to create and all the team building exercises, people are constantly gunning for each other, trying to get people fired, taking credit for other people's work, making people look bad in front of management to elevate their own status, trying to jump ship and go to other companies in the same industry with proprietary knowledge... so my take on this whole story is that..."this is simply how people operate."

Like I've been on team building exercises with the company where everybody an outdooring trip and bonds over canoeing, and then immediately the next day people get back to trying to get each other fired.

That's just how people are. People form connections over all sorts of things, but that doesn't mean that they aren't out for themselves or that the connection will always exist, or that the connection is deep or that the person is loyal to you.

[thebeautifuldaughter]

fascinating to watch how hozier speaking Irish in his new music is making some people: 1. fetishise him further and/or 2. make 'fun' jokes about gaeilge/gaelic/'''garlic'''' bc like. babes. i can guarantee you neither of those actions are separable from the lingering impacts of colonialism.

[withloveastrid]

Hii 🩷 As someone who also honors the Greek Gods {Hades, Hecate, and Medusa are the focus in my devotion} and who came from a Christian background too, I wanted to share that the Gods understand our human needs and limitations. They don't get angry with us for things that are within our human needs because They created us as mortal beings who need sleep to live and function at our best.

They only get frustrated {and it could lead to anger} when we disrespect Them, and falling asleep mid-prayer is not disrespectful 🩷 They understand that we get tired and need to sleep, They also understand that falling asleep isn't always a controlled action {think about narcolepsy or drowsiness as a side effect of medication we need}, They will never get mad at you or anyone for doing what's natural when they created us like this 🩷

In Ancient Greek mythos and worship, the Gods were known to understand and accept human limitations. They don't demand that we harm ourselves, deny our basic needs, or pressure us to do more than what we are capable of. In fact, sleep was considered sacred to the Ancient Greeks.

Hypnos {the God of sleep} is Thanatos' twin brother. So He understands the need to sleep 🩷

If you take one thing away from this, let it be this: The Gods want us to take care of ourselves so we can honor Them with a clear and healthy mind and body, and so we can live a beneficial life for ourselves. Your dedication in trying to pray even when exhausted shows your devotion, but please know that taking care of your health is also a way of honoring the Gods. They care about your well-being and want you to rest when you need it.

The idea that the Gods get angry at us for human nature and limitations stems from the Abrahamic religions, from a time when people understood divinity differently. The Gods created us with our mortal nature not as punishment, but so we could experience the universe from a different perspective than the Divine. That's why it's called the “Human Experience” — our needs and limitations are part of what makes us uniquely human. It’s not a bad thing 🩷

I think it's also important to note that the idea that Gods get upset with us for our needs and limitations is deeply rooted in ableist thinking. I'm sure you didn't intend that when you shared this or felt this way the other night, and this is not to call you out because I think everyone has struggled with this idea at one point or another because it's been a widely spread and deep-rooted propaganda in our world for centuries.

Because of this, I believe it's important to continue deconstructing our faith so we can understand our emotions and thoughts when it comes to our relationships with our Gods 🩷 I wanted to share this to bring your awareness to it because this structure of thinking can negatively impact your mental health if it goes unresolved and in turn, could negatively change your relationship with your Gods, neither of which I want for you or anyone.

Remember that your relationship with the Gods is personal and sacred. They chose you for who you are right now, not for your potential or past lives. Right now, you are a human being with all the beautiful complexity that entails 🩷 Embrace it so you can enjoy it. When you need rest, please rest. When you need care, please take it. This isn't just allowed, but it's part of the magical journey you’re on right now. You're not letting Them down by taking care of yourself; you're honoring Their gift of your human experience in all its fullness 🩷

With Love, Astrid 🩷✨

P.S. I’m happy to answer any questions you might have on this or to continue the conversation 🩷

y’all i love Lord Thanatos sm. i fell asleep mid prayer bc i was feeling absolutely exhausted. i woke up in the middle of the night in a stupor and apologized to Him, but i managed to fall asleep once more when i was done. i dreamt of finding a bookshelf with butterflies on every single one of the book covers. on one hand it finally feels like He heard my call for a sign in my dreams, and on the other hand it was like He had accepted my apology