#but like Cass is the best fighter in Gotham but do the other ones not have formidable skills?

[whalehouse1]

Me seeing a Jason was such a good student who loved homework and loved reading so much that none of the other Bats could touch him: I’m feeling an extremely strong urge to go through the golden and silver age Robin comics and pull every panel of Dick being comfy in a chair reading. And the admittedly few of him doing good in school. He did hate homework, that is true though.

[imbadwithprofilenames]

I feel like the arguing about who would beat who is kinda useless. Because there's facts and then there's opinions.

Cass is the best fighter: Fact.

Dick is the best hero over all: Fact.

Dick is better fighter than Cass: False, If you think so you're wrong (I'm saying this as a person who sometimes feels physical frustration over this FACT)

Dick can beat Cass in a fight: Fact

Both of them are better fighters than Batman: Fact.

Batman has beat them both many times: Fact.

And why can they all beat each other in a fight? Because they are all genius level smart and probably top 10 fighters. People are not perfect, sometimes brain, instincts and reflexes just don't work at their best rate.

At the end of the day it just depends on the writer and plot. (Because I do not care how smart batman is he should've not been able to beat almost every one of his kids in Gotham War. One on one, sure, but against all of them? Nuh uh. Especially when he was basically going crazy)

[fenrir-wolf-of-gotham]

What specifically do you think is bad about fandom Cass? I read some comics, but my main exposure to her is through fandom and WFA.

Her main characteristics in Fanon (as far as I've noticed):

She is really good at fighting (sometimes the best of the bats)

She likes dancing

She talks only through ASL or talks very little

She moves elegantly

She cares about people

She has strong morals

I don't know how accurate compared to canon this is, but I don't really see the racist part. So I'd love to hear if I missed or misinterpreted anything.

Thanks for the ask! I wrote an entire response then my phone died so here I am rewriting it.

To make a long story short, Cass as a character is very competitive, brutal, and serious in the comics and they kinda remove that entirely just to make her a glorified support animal for the rest of the Batfamily. Cass is terrible with emotions and often fucks up when handling her own emotions, let alone the emotions of her family. She's often just as determined, self assured, and brutal as Bruce is, sometimes moreso. She simultaneously gets a peek into everyone's emotions but struggles to understand how people feel. She often thinks she knows best and is extremely blunt in communication and actions. She legitimately thought the idea of beating up every mobster in Gotham until she got a lead to a case was a good idea. She doesn't really know how to comfort someone unless she's familiar with them like with Steph or Barbara.

As for the ASL issue, this is the worst of the fandom's misinterpretation of the character. She has only been mute in two pieces of media, the first wasn't very good and the second was even worse but it wasn't even trying to be accurate to the character. Cass has never used ASL in any comic. She has a language learning disability and would struggle learning any language, including sign. The part about racism is that, if you make Cass mute, she falls into the stereotype of the "silent foreign warrior" which is common in older western media. The original writers actually realized they had originally written her like this and immediately gave her speech and inner dialogue to avoid this trope.

In essence, they're disregarding her much less visible, but still real and difficult to deal with, disability for a more visible one that's more palatable for abled people to understand.

She is absolutely the best martial arts fighter in the DC universe (that's not just me being a fanboy, its stated in canon) and is super competitive about that and that competitive nature is completely absent in WFA or a lot of other pieces of media.

The issue is that Cass is a character with a very distinct feel and most of the time when people don't know the character very well or just skimmed her wikipedia page, you can tell because she comes off as a completely different person than her canon counterpart. She absolutely likes dancing, she does have strong morals, and she does care immensely about people but often that's where the similarities end and even the way those traits are displayed can be very far from canon.

Again, thanks for the ask. I love talking about her, even if it is how badly she's butchered in fanon.

[kens-ramblings]

okay so for background i work in first responder land, not as a first responder but my job deals with them on a regular basis. so basically here is my opinion on what kinda of first responder each of the batfam would be with little to no explanation :D

Alfred- maybe retired EMS? i know he does medical stuff with the bats so it just makes sense to me

Bruce- he’s a cop. idk what else to say he’s just such a cop and you can take that however you’d like🤨😐

Dick- 911 operator. i think he canonically was one at some point(please correct me if im wrong tho i am very slowly getting through comics) and its also one of the ones that just makes sense to me. like he wants to help but he does not want to do it on the same way B does and has always been good with people. so i feel like he’d probably enjoy it

Jason- maybe this is controversial but i’d say firefighter. like yes he died due to smoke inhalation but i also feel like he’d want to work through that trauma(bc bats can’t just go to therapy like normal people nooooo) by helping others to yk,,, not die in fires?? also it’s just another one of the ones idk how else to explain it the vibes are just there yk

Tim- I think he’d work in emergency management somewhere. like yes they are not exactly first responders and his character is a front lines guy, but we’ve also seen that he is a PLANNER. emergency management’s whole job is planning for what to do when things go to shit. plus they still go on scene as needed so he wouldn’t have to deal with JUST being a guy in a chair

Babs- i originally wasn’t gonna do her because i don’t really know her character all that well. but,,,, as i was writing tim’s i was like “oh this is also probably babs a bit ecspecially after her accident. like she was probably some sort of first responder,,, maybe cop to follow in her dads footsteps?? but also maybe not? like i said not exactly one of the characters know best,,,, but anyways after no longer being able to help on the front lines she joins gothams emergency management agency because they also help coordinate when big things happen so it makes sense to me

steph- another one i’m not super sure i know her characterization all that well outside of fandom, but im giving it my best go. i feel like she went into EMS. she spent some time with leslie and in a lot of normal capes aus i’ve read it seems like she’s always a med student so it makes sense to me

Cass- i’m actually kinda stumped on her. like realistically she could do any of the jobs she wanted because yk she’s highly skilled in damn near everything. like idk i just can’t picture her as anything other than kick ass vigilante. but if i had to choose,,,, maybe 911 operator, she could help with other languages and dispatchers really run this shit from the shadows. so final answer dispatcher i guess? but i feel like it is kinda a waste of her fighting talents but yk it is what it is

duke- he is another one i’m not 1000% on characterization, i don’t think he’s been in any of the comics i’ve read other than wayne family adventures. but anyways, my gut instinct was cop, but like in the way that he’s trying to change the system from the inside out. but then actually the whole gang thing came to mind and duke is def an ACAB kinda guy. like couldn’t stand to wear the uniform probs, so im actually gonna go with fire fighter. i also can’t really explain this one it’s just what my heart says.

Dami- he’s another one i think is a cop, but he is because he wants to be like Bruce. he starts out doing basically whatever B says but he eventually finds his own way. honestly i feel like after a stint he quits and joins like an EMS service for animals(i actually do not know if that’s a thing, but it is now) bc i think he would genuinely enjoy that and still feel like he’s helping yk?

[judgeanon]

It Sure Has Been a Wild Couple of Days to be a Lady Shiva Fan

(Art by Skylar Partridge)

So after only showing up for a backup story in DETECTIVE COMICS a few months ago and for a few pages in the last issues of BATGIRLS back in January, turns out that Lady Shiva is gonna be a major part of not one, but two different series come November. Putting my thoughts under the jump 'cause they might be long:

First, there's an all-new BATGIRL ongoing written by Tate Brombal and drawn by Takeshi Miyazawa. I'm not really familiar with either of them, but I'm gonna try to check some of their work in the weekend. As for the plot:

When a deadly group of assassins shows up to kill Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva must come to the rescue, and they’re forced to put their complicated past aside and work together as mother and daughter to ensure they make it out alive. Unfortunately, things are never as easy as they seem, and Batgirl must embark on a jaw-dropping, martial-arts filled adventure in her quest for truth and justice…and revenge?! This is a Batgirl unlike any other so don’t miss the opportunity to dive into the psyche of one of Gotham City’s deadliest fighters, while exploring her deep and complex relationship with her mother.

Here's the thing: while I am overjoyed that after Bryan Hill's OUTSIDERS we've pretty much exorcised the idea of Shiva as a zealous, card-carrying member of the League of Assassins, I've been a little bothered by how literally every single big Shiva appearance afterwards has revolved around Cass. Even in that weird short stint leading a new Birds of Prey team, her motivation was somehow gaining Cass' trust for... reasons. So I'm glad Shiva's no longer an LoA flunky, but I'm concerned with how she seems so tied at the hip with Cass -- especially since Cass does get to have stories that don't involve Shiva at all.

But at the same time, I do think there's a lot of meat on that bone, meat that, in my eye, nobody has really sank their teeth in yet. Hill tried but he was working within a team book, and Cloonan and Conrad just sorta teased it. This one, however, feels like a story about Shiva and Cass built from the ground up, with all the room necessary for some actual development from the two. This is them not as a subplot or as a tease for future stories, but as The Story. And while that may go in a bunch of different ways, I'm definitely interested to see what way this will go.

Annnd then there's Tom King and Ryan Sook's BLACK CANARY: BEST OF THE BEST, which I'm... a little less interested in.

Black Canary faces her toughest opponent yet, Lady Shiva, in a battle to determine who is the single greatest hand-to-hand fighter in the DC Universe. To make it to the final round, Black Canary will need all her fighting skill and ability, plus additional training from some of DC’s most accomplished fighters, including Batman, Wildcat, and even her mother, the original Black Canary!

Yeaaaaah, I just... I'm not feeling this one. There's not any real mention of a plot here, not a lot to really grab on to other than vibes, and the vibes are just weird. It's weird how Dinah is fighting to determine who's the best fighter, something that to me isn't really a huge part of her character. It's weird that, from the preview pages, they're fighting in like a Vegas casino, in a ring, with an audience. It's weird that there's three trainers mentioned and none of them are Cass, who not only has beaten Shiva before but has trained with Dinah at least twice in canon. And this being tumblr, let me say it's also weird that this is a story about a white woman training with three white people to beat up an Asian woman in martial arts.

It's a six issue mini and the short solicit and weirdness is clearly meant to pique curiosity. But I'm dreading how much this all sounds like it's using Shiva to put Dinah in a pedestal, to show how strong and resilient and stubborn she can be. Even if it goes for a ROCKY ending of "Lost the fight but won at life", unless Shiva is written very thoughtfully, it feels like she's just gonna be there for the sake of Dinah's character. And I dunno if I trust King to write Shiva with any real thought.

So that's kinda where I'm at. Neither of these are a full Shiva solo, and one of them fills me with dread, but it's been a real rush to have two major Shiva-related projects like these be revealed one after the other. And with 2025 being the 50th anniversary of her debut, hey, who knows? Maybe this is just paving the road for something special. Hope springs eternal, no?

[veryace-ficrecs]

Cass Cain Fic Recs

This list will include all ratings and tags, so read at your own discretion! :)

Before Gotham by Hinn_Raven - Rated G

Before Cassandra Cain became Batgirl, before Jason Todd became the Red Hood, before Bruce Wayne, before No Man's Land, before everything, Jason and Cassandra have a chance meeting.

backwards and in high heels by destiny919 - Rated G

Cass sits placidly tied to an uncomfortable chair, letting fear show on her face while feeling mildly irritated. Her captors keep shouting at her and don't understand sign language. She has already decided Batgirl will be teaching all of them the sign for 'S'. Repeatedly. But it's not Batgirl who got kidnapped, it's Cassandra Wayne.

This Might As Well Happen by goatsghost - Rated T

At a gala, Cass notices someone slipping something in her drink, but she’s not able to decline without bringing unwanted attention to herself. Here we go, she thinks, and tips the drink back, downing it in one go.

Zugzwang by Hinn_Raven - Rated T

Stephanie Brown is dead at the hands of the Black Mask after War Games. Cassandra Cain knows this. So when the Court of Owls sends an assassin to kill Bruce Wayne, a Talon with long, blonde hair, Cass knows she’s just seeing ghosts… right?

Maybe with a Shift in Planets by SilverSkiesAtMidnight - Rated G

The shadow is a silhouette on the edge of the roof. She can’t see his eyes behind the blank white lenses of his cowl, but she can feel the cunning weight of his gaze as it rakes over her, a pair of predators recognizing one another. She keeps her posture relaxed. She looks back at him with steady eyes. She is not prey. She will not allow the kind boy behind her to be prey either.

diamonds are a girl's best friend by destiny919 - Rated G

Cass finds the jewelry boxes up in the west attic, one dusty afternoon not long after Bruce adopts her.

Rings by justaddwriter - Rated G

When Cass acts a little strange over a new piece of jewelry, Bruce starts to get suspicious. And worried. And confused. Turns out he really had nothing to worry about.

do I dare disturb the universe? by Hinn_Raven - Rated T

Cassandra Cain was falling, and there were stars. When she landed, she found herself stranded in a universe where there never was a Batman. Good thing that she’s a detective.

the journey & the destination (are the same) by britishparty - Rated G

The first time Cassandra speaks to Batman, it's in the language David Cain taught her. The way bodies speak is simple. Cassandra watches Bruce Wayne go, and thinks that people are not. She goes back to Barbara. "I want," she says, and stops. She doesn't know the words for what she wants. There's a story Cassandra heard once, about a boy made out of wood. He wanted something like this, too. - there are a lot of steps in between being a weapon and being a person. Cassandra Cain becomes Batgirl. Batgirl becomes Cass Wayne. Cass isn't sure what it means, to be a person, and Batman isn't very good at teaching that. luckily Bruce has a protege or five to help her figure it out.

Take a Break by Sohotthateveryonedied - Rated G

Cassandra Cain is used to working in less-than-perfect physical shape. In her unconventional childhood, she suffered her fair share of broken bones and open wounds, and she weathered them without complaint or weakness. It’s one of the many prices of being a fighter, and so Cass embraced it. She pushed herself through everything that tried to hinder her. It eventually became part of her training—learning how to fight through whatever weaknesses tried to hold her back, despite the pain, despite the slip-ups. If Cassandra’s arm was broken, David Cain simply made her fight with the other one. If she broke a rib, he made sure she took twice as many hits until the pain became an afterthought. The same went for when she was sick.

Meet Me Where You're Going by Hinn_Raven - Rated T

When things get complicated in Hong Kong, Cass requests help from Batman Inc. Unbeknownst to her, Bruce dispatches not one of her brothers, but Stephanie Brown, who Cass has not spoken to since she gave up the Batgirl mantle. Steph is eager to reunite with her best friend, but things between them are complicated. Not the least of the problems is the fact that Steph might be falling in love… but of course, Cass is straight, so Steph really shouldn’t dwell on that. Friendship and romance, conspiracy and adventure await the two of them as they try to unravel a complicated plot that seeks to stop Batman Incorporated before it can truly begin.

something other than violence by TheyReapWhatWeSow - Rated G

"In the relative quiet of the kitchen, Alfred noticed immediately when the kitchen door creaked open, and a swish of fabric slipped inside. With his usual steadiness, Alfred didn’t hesitate for a second, trying not to let on to the little intruder that he’d noticed their entry. A few silent moments passed without a peep from the visitor, and Alfred wondered how long they would hold out, hidden under the far ledge of the counter he was working on. " OR A young Cassandra Cain finds herself in the domain of a master, and Alfred finally gets to meet his newest grandchild.

carbon first, then light by cassiopeia721 - Rated G

Seeing Catwoman in action makes Cassandra realize that her life has room for beauty in it, now.

“Oh this? Just a little something that caught my eye.” Catwoman draws her bag back around to her front. Her long, pointy nails run along the black leather—smug, smug, smug—and then she unzips the bag and— —a glittering diamond the size of Cass’s fist, sparkling like the stars in the low light of the roof they’re standing on. Catwoman chuckles. The lines of her body have softened a little. “Gorgeous, isn’t it?” she asks lowly, and Cass abruptly realizes she’s leaned in close to get a better look.

Heaven Knows by orphan_account - Rated M

• 𝐏𝐚𝐢𝐧 𝐀𝐔: You feel your soulmate's pain. Most people think that soulmates are romantic, and that whoever is your soulmate is supposed to be the one you were meant to be with. But that isn't always the case. Because, for Cass and Tim, nothing was romantic. They were siblings, best friends, through and through. But they were not lovers. They were platonic soulmates. And neither of them would have it any other way.

Are You Winning? by blaircow - Rated T

Cass didn’t often feel the need to exude confidence. She felt confident most of the time but she also knew fear kept her loose and on her toes for the unexpected. In the face of two anxious younger brothers, she needed to embody every ounce the older, reliable sibling.

[igotanidea]

The fear: Jason Todd x fem!reader part 4

part 1

part 2

part 3

Driving back to Gotham was…. Intense. A lot of memories started creeping inside Y/N mind, both wanted and unwanted, good and bad. Most of them were about her time with batboys, all the fun and fear combined, but on the other part there were recollections of her father’s lab, late nights working on some chemicals and substances.

Even the weather seemed to fit into her melancholic mood, since satisfying Gotham notoriety as the most depressing city in the world it started heavy raining the second she get into the car…..

“Oh, boys…. What did you got yourself into this time?” she sighed, trying to focus on the road.

One year ago.

The boys were out, as usual, doing their usual crime-fighting vigilante shit. All four of them, even if Y/N and Babs were repeatedly warning Bruce that making them work together was not a good idea. However, Batman was not known for his listening-to-reason skills. Instead of changing plans, he decided to involve Cass and Steph into the mission as well, treating them like some sort of safety valve in case his sons really started fighting themselves.

Chemist and Oracle stayed in the batcave, in front of the computer, shaking their heads in disapproval as they watched how the patrol was going. Bruce and Dick dealt with the problem head-on, Jason went rouge and solo within first five minutes, Tim was trying his best to hold back Damian, who became unhinged with his katana and only Cass and Steph were doing good work.

“This is a disaster….” Babs muttered rubbing her forehead

“Yeah, tell me something new.” Y/N muttered, biting on the cracker. She never cared about Bruce’s rule prohibiting food in the cave. “Maybe we should use…..”

“Y/N…..” Babs warned the other girl

“What?” Y/N shrugged “you know my mixtures never fail. And look at them, they are going to get hurt…”

 “They always get hurt. Shall I remind you, your boyfriend got so badly hurt he actually died?”

“Well thanks for the reminder, Oracle. Do you wish for Dick to go through the same or do you want to actually be a life safer?”

“They would hate our interference….” Babs smiled mischievously

“And?” Y/N smirked, her eyes glistening

“Let’s do this.”

So the girls took matters into their own hands, sending one of Wayne’s remotely controlled robot loaded with Y/N’s chemicals to remedy the situation. Thankfully, all the Waynes were quick enough to wrap their heads around what was happening to cover their faces and not inhale any of it. Within seconds, all the criminals were unconscious on the ground.

“That’s a win for us, Babs!” Y/N smiled and high-fived her friends.

“Y/N……” Bruce warning tone reverberated in the comms.  

“Oh, shit…..”

***

“Why am I the only one here? Babs was involved as well!” the second Batman got back from mission he summoned Y/N to have a conversation. And now, she was facing him, all alone, trying not to become intimidated.

“We both know it was your idea. You really know how to mess around.”

“And that makes me a perfect addition to the family, doesn’t it?”

“Y/n…..” Bruce sighed deeply. He hated to admit it, but he had soft spot for her.

“What, Bruce? Why are you like this? You know well enough you were outnumbered there. You had zero chances, even if you decided to work together. What was I supposed to do? Watch you all get beaten to death? I’ve …. I’ve been through it once when Jay….. “ she inhaled calming herself down. That was in the past. “Sorry.” She shook her head getting rid of the memories. That was not the way to convince Bruce “When you took me in, after my parents went haywire, the only thing I wanted was to be useful, to help. I am not a front-line fighter, but ever since I’ve been doing my best. Having your backs. And now you want to punish me for this?”

“I don’t want to punish you.” Bruce whispered

“What? You don’t?”

“No. It was a good call.”

“Um…. Thank you?”

“You can go now. “

“If that’s your way of thanking me, then you are welcome.” she smirked and Bruce mimicked this expression “Are you all right, Bruce? Anything broken?”

“I’m fine. But if there’s any of that healing serum of yours left then…..”

“I was supposed to save it for Jay, but he would probably refuse to take it, damn his ego.” Y/N shrugged “and since you asked so nicely….” She reached to her pocket and retrieved a small vial tossing it to Batman “enjoy.”

***

“Oh, there she is. Finally. I see you handled Bruce by yourself.” Jason was already in his room, laying on the bed on his back, turning towards the door when she came through them.

“I’ve been doing it for the last couple years. Unlike someone else I know, I learn from experience.” She came closer and sat on the bed, close enough to see his face in the dim room but not enough for him to touch her.

“Someone else, huh?” Jason scoffed trying to grab her, but hissed in pain and fell back immediately “Fuck.”

“Mhm. You’re just proving my point here. Stay down.”

“I thought you preferred me on top.” He smirked devilishly

“On top of your stupidity, for sure.” She rolled her eyes, but moved just a tiny-teeny bit closer.

“In comparison to anyone else in this family I am practically a genius.”

“A genius in the kindergarten.”

“Still, a genius.” He groaned when the change in position made the injured part of his abs hurt.

“Where does it hurt?” she asked calmly

“Nowhere.”

“Stop it, you fool. I told you hundreds of times – you don’t have to act stronger than you really are when you’re with me.”

“I don’t. I am the strongest one in the family.”

“The strongest and the smartest? God,  how did I get so lucky to end up with you?”

“I keep asking myself the same question.”

“How did I get so lucky with you?” she raised an eyebrow in confusion

“Oh, you silly one….” He smiled and lifted himself up a bit (surprisingly noting hurt at the moment) capturing her lips in his. The kiss was soft, slow and gentle. He was never good with words, but his actions spoke for themselves and she knew it.  She loved him and he loved her. He pulled away after a few seconds and cupped her cheek, connecting their foreheads “tease….” He whispered

“Look who’s talking.” Her hands sneaked up his arms and shoulders, locking on his neck not wanting to let him go, not just yet. Enjoying this little moment just between two of them, without interruption of his family, or the work or some sort of emergency.

“I missed you.”

“How could you missed me, if you saw me a few hours ago?”

“I don’t know. But I did. Can’t hold that against me. ” Jay rubbed her cheek affectionately.

“Good thing I missed you too, Jaybird.”

“Stay with me? I might need some comfort after I got so badly bruised.”

“I thought you were the strongest in the family?”

“And that is why you should stay with me. If anything happens I am the only one to protect you…..”

“I’ll stay with you” she pecked his lips quickly and he smiled lightly “but only because I want to see if you can live up to your words. Now scooch over, I need some place for myself if….”

“Oh, no, you don’t….” he grinned and pulled her on top of him, so that she was lying fully on his chest, his arms tightly wrapped around her, his breath steady and calming.

“Jay, what about your injuries…..”

“Irrelevant.” He muttered holding her even closer “You’re my only focus now. “

***

Now

She stopped her car in front of Wayne Manor,  a tad anxious, not sure if she should rush to the door or rather prolong the moment of seeing him again. However, considering all the security cameras and her bat-friends instincts they already knew she was there. No turning back now she thought to herself and gathering all her confidence walked towards the door.

“Hello, Alfred” she smiled when familiar face showed on the other side

“Hello, miss Y/N. Welcome home.”

@pinksirensong

to be continued

Part 5

@shadow-pancake9

@lwtmonster91

@your-local-cryptid87

@@princessbl0ss0m

[mzminola]

#dc comics asks #tim drake #lady shiva #ask me stuff #robin #tbf in a VERY different context Shiva using that white line on a mixed race part-Asian Tim would have interesting possibilities #but that's very much not what this was it was just Dixon being cringe and racist again [tags via OP]

Yeah as someone from a mixed & multicultural family who was not paying any attention to the writers, I did not read that line as any kind of confirmation Tim was white or christian, just that Shiva is being an asshole and doing the racism version of negging.

Anyway I'm still going through Tim's comics, but I can think of at least five interactions between them:

1. Paris One: the above-mention Robin miniseries. Shiva is going after Edmund "King Snake" Dorrance for a lethal fight because he's one of the world's best non-meta fighters, and once you hit a certain skill reputation level in DC Shiva just Does That.

2. Tengu: Bruce got real fucked up and needs Shiva to train him. She agrees on the grounds that he kill someone during his final test. He fights in a theater mask, and fakes his opponent's death. Shiva and Tim don't really interact directly here, but they're both present and Tim is SUPER upset when he thinks Bruce broke the no kill rule.

3. Paris Two: Civil War Boogaloo: Tim goes back to Paris to finish his training with the healing and martial arts master he was supposed to the first time, that man is dead so Tim learns from someone else, meets a girl who's learning every possible Single Strike Move she can. Turns out she's in the resistance in small European country, with access to a drug that makes you go super fast so single strike moves are for maximizing that effectiveness.

Shiva shows up to fight (and probably kill) her. Tim had been given the speed drug too, accidentally kills Shiva trying to save the girl, and successfully resuscitates Shiva. She runs off at partial super speed, since some of the drug was on Tim's mouth.

4. Is This Racist Or Is DC Just Awkwardly Adapting Kung Fu Movie Tropes: there's an ancient martial arts organization trying to kill Green Arrow (currently Connor Hawke) because he's got the reputation as one of the best non-meta fighters on the planet. They're all called [Material] Monkey, Shiva's achieved the level of Paper Monkey (highest possible) through defeating so many others.

Shiva beats the shit out of Connor, and Tim leaps in before the killing blow to say "Hey you owe me a life debt! Since I didn't leave you dead that one time! I'm calling it in to save Connor."

Shiva makes it clear that she doesn't consider Life Debts to be a thing, but Tim's attempt amuses her so she pats his cheek with a smile and leaves.

5. Near The End of Robin 1993: I haven't read the full arc, but Shiva is in Gotham to fight Tim. I guess he's finally gotten past the 'potential' stage and into 'fight'? He tracks down her hotel, poisons her complimentary chocolates with a paralytic that only kicks in once your heartrate raises above a certain level. Their fight starts, he might get beat up a bit, and then Shiva falls the fuck down.

Tim informs her the cops are on the way, and that if she breaks out of jail, he'd prefer she not go after him again, thanks.

Note: Everything between Shiva & Cass in Preboot Era happens between these 4 and 5. And since I haven't finished my read, I don't know if Tim & Shiva have interaction in between there, or if she shows up again after the poisoned chocolates incident.

~

Lady Shiva shows up in a fair number of DC titles as a chaos element. I feel like I need to read more appearances outside the Bats to get a bead on how she feels about individual people, but I get the impression that she has similar motivations as a particular type of stock immortal character (despite not being one) -- that life gets boring when there's no risk of anyone killing you.

Sandra "Lady Shiva" Wu-San will fight any non-meta that she suspects has a decent chance at killing her. Sometimes she kills them, sometimes she lets them live. According to some meta I've read, she tends to find people who are stuck somehow and drastically change something in their lives so that they have to change too.

For Cass, that's killing and reviving her so she's free of her death wish.

With Tim, I get the impression that she met him early enough that he's not stuck in anything (though prodding about the no-kill rule might be an attempt to prevent him getting stuck). She sees potential, they're going after the same guy, and teaching is interesting. So why not?

Tim is a chance for her to watch how someone grows as a fighter instead of only meeting them once they're highly skilled. Teaching him is also a way for her to make more waves in the world, and give him a better chance at surviving his vigilante career; wouldn't it be so terribly boring if he died too soon?

So how many times did Tim meet Lady Shiva or interacted with her? What was their relationship like?

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure, I'm not as well versed in that particular relationship (and I'm in the middle of unpacking from my move so I'm not currently in a position to research it.) I know they run into each other at least twice because Shiva turns up at some point during the Robin ongoing but I don't know if it's just the one encounter or if there's more.

I'm most familiar with the relationship they form during the first Robin miniseries, which I've read a couple of times. Tim was sent to Paris to train with someone else, he fell into Shiva's orbit because of the King Snake investigation, and she simply... took an interest in him. Seems intrigued by his potential.

The short version, at least by my read, is that Tim respects Shiva because of her skill and worldliness, but is also wary and low-key terrified of her because she's a cold-blooded killer who keeps calling him 'little bird' and implying that she's either going to turn him into a murderer, kill him in battle, or both. Shiva, meanwhile, seems intrigued by Tim's potential and actively tries shape him into "her weapon" but it's not really clear what she means by that -- maybe she wants an appreciatice or a partner, or maybe she hopes he'd be the one to kill her in the fight she's been craving when he's an adult, it's kind of left up to interpretation. The last one would explain why she kinda drops this thread after Cass is properly introduced.

Mind, the mini is from 1991 so there is also some uncomfortable elements to it... like implying that Shiva is literally trying to seduce the underaged boy and also having her describe his vow against killing as, "How very Christian of you. How very white of you." which is just... yuck. Chuck Dixon everybody, still a racist.

[dc-said-bi-robin-rights]

Rant Post incoming:

Anyone else have any common Batfam fandom tropes they absolutely despise?

Mine are:

-Woobyfying

-Those fics were everyone has to apologize and beg for *insert character here(usually Tim Drake)*’s forgiveness for *insert situation where they wronged said character here*. It ignores all the context of all their previous interactions and it’s just a petty thing overall.

-Cass being treated like a service dog because for some ungodly reason half the fandom thinks she’s some perfect little girl who’s vocabulary consists solely of the words “little brother”

-Cass being beat in a one-on-one fight by anyone in the batfam. She has been defeated before by metahumans, people taking her by surprise, or enemies that use gadgets she physically can’t counter, and that’s fine, but in a straight fight Cassandra Cain would fistfight God and win and it’s a disservice to her character to treat her like a throwaway tool to show how good *batboy of choice* is.

-Cass being treated like a mind reader. She can read body language. She would know Person A is afraid, sure, but that doesn’t mean she would instantly know why or how or of who or even what she should do about it.

-Tim Drake hahaha coffee hahaha so funny

-Duke either not being mentioned as one of the batkids or being treated like an outsider even when he’s like the only brother (not counting Dick) Damian can stand and has been shown to have a really close relationship with Cass

-“Duke is the sane one because….” the first time we saw that boy he jumped out of a moving police car off a fucking bridge what the fuck are you talking about

-Damian talking like a Victorian prince. His dialogue has always been a mix of the formal dialect that he was taught in the League mixed with the modern slang he has learned while in Gotham. He uses modern phrases all the time. He shouldn’t sound three sentences away from being cast in a Shakespearean play.

-People who have Damian not use contractions, just… why? I literally saw a fic in which a major plot point was that Damian had hidden a secret message in the contractions he used in a letter because “Damian never uses contractions!” and I’m just like motherfucker have you read a single panel with Damian in it in your entire life what

-Latino Jason Todd. As an actual Latino I hate this trope so much I wrote a multiple paragraph post about about how offensive it is (street kid= Latino? Really?) and how many hoops you’d have to jump through to get to that unbelievable convoluted racist headcanon (One of Jason’s potential moms was Lady fucking Shiva does Lady Shiva look like a fucking Latina to you?).

-Giving other people’s skills and traits to Tim.

Best hacker in the Batfamily? Barbara, not Tim.

Best fighter in the Batfamily? Cass, not Tim, and it’s not even close. No, not even if Tim “strategizes” or whatever that is bullshit and you know it. The only Bat Tim could ever credibly beat in a fight is Damian and the kid’s literally ten.

Hooded Robin? Damian, not Tim. Damian’s canonically the only Robin ever allowed to wear a hood because he’s the only one of them that wouldn’t be hindered by the hood (“… a hood can become a blindfold…” “…I can fight blind…”)

-Dick Grayson being treated like a sex object and being cool with being objectified by complete strangers.

-The erasure of Tim and Dick’s brotherly relationship. He can have more than one brother at a time guys.

-Dick/The Titans treating Jason badly while Jason was Robin.

-Shut the actual fuck up about Tim Drake if you haven’t ever read a comic, seriously. Y’all literally just making up your own character at this point and it’s the most boring person imaginable.

[hintofelation99]

Batfamily sorted into Hogwarts houses?

Ooohhhh a classic, I love it! Tbh I have no clue how controversial my opinions are here, like honestly each member fits several houses well. So I just went with what felt best to me, but I'd love to hear other's opinions!

First let's go over the main traits of each house, these are the traits I will be focusing on.

Gryffindor -> Bravery, daring, nerve, and confidence

Hufflepuff -> Hard work, dedication, patience, loyalty, and fair play

Ravenclaw -> Intelligence, knowledge, curiosity, creativity, and wit

Slytherin -> Ambition, leadership, determination, cunning, and resourcefulness

Bruce

-> Hufflepuff: I feel like this one will be rather controversial and honestly it was pretty difficult to decide on. But I think his overall dedication to the mission is what sold it for me. Like that's one of his more consistent character traits, he values the mission above all else. And I don't think of that value or dedication as coming from a place of ambition, but rather a place of loyalty. Honestly Batman's relationship with Gotham really exemplifies both patience and dedication, at least it does in my mind. Hufflepuff is also sometimes thought of as the house that accepts all, so people who don't have a good designation can go there, which is pretty on point with Bruce adopting a shit ton of kids.

Dick

-> Gryffindor: This one might be a tad cliche, but I think that it fits. Because all of the batfam is daring and brave, but Dick takes so much joy from these traits. He’s known for defying gravity and having fun doing it. He’s also the typical confident older brother, like he definitely has insecurities but overall he’s a pretty confident guy. He’s a leader who paved the way for Robins and continues to protect the rights of young heroes. He’s known for being super protective of his family and is willing to make sacrifices for them. Also he brave enough to design a custom that had no pants and confident enough to run around in that costume.

Babs

-> Ravenclaw: Babs the oracle, she’s basically the definition of knowledge. She definitely exemplifies other houses as well but her dedication to knowledge and intelligence definitely put her in Ravenclaw for me. After being paralyzed a lot of people thought she would give up being a vigilante, but instead she turned information into a weapon and a shield. Instead of giving up she created a new and now invaluable position. She isn’t just smart, she’s clever and quick thinking, always ready for any situation.

Jason

-> Hufflepuff: Okay, so in a lot of ways Jason mirrors Bruce. He’s incredibly loyal to his home, has strict rules that he (mostly) stands by like don’t hurt kids and no abusers get no mercy (and yes I’m using the terms rules loosely here). But honestly what sold the whole ‘Jason is hufflepuff’ thing for me is how protective/kind his is of crime victims, specifically women and children. He was a crime lord who fought to for kids, who didn't tolerate abuse, and who protected prostitutes. And yeah that's all super brave and very Gryffindor-esque, but in my mind it all comes from a place of genuine kindness, and that's what makes him a Hufflepuff to me.

Cass

-> Hufflepuff: Cass is deadly, she could snap just about anyone like a twig, but she's also a complete cinnamon roll. She's a sweetheart who adores her family and, for the most part, likes people. Cass is kind and sweet and she literally booped Batman on the nose. Like if that isn't the most Hufflepuff thing, than I don't know what is. She's just the epitome of 'soft cute Hufflepuff,' but also never forget that she can easily kill you.

Tim

-> Ravenclaw: In my opinion (and I think also canonically but I'm not 100% on that) Tim is the smartest bat. Tim literally outsmarted Ra's Al Ghul and he figured out Batman's identity when he was just a child. And he's not just 'I know a lot of things' smart, he's cunning and knows how to plan for any outcome, how to out wit others, how to lie to Batman. Like in the Red Robin arc his Tim's side quest is outsmarting the league of assassins and pissing off Ras Al Ghul. That's such a Ravenclaw (and baller) move.

Steph

-> Gryffindor: Steph had the nerve to put on a purple suit, she was daring enough to hit Robin with a brick, and she was brave enough to become Batgirl even after her encounter with Black Mask. She's bold and shameless in all the best ways. Like Steph isn't the greatest fighter or most skilled bat, but she's bold and fearless and that's what makes her such a great hero.

Duke

-> Slytherin: This one took me forever to decide on, but I realized that Duke has all the smarts of a Ravenclaw and all the bravery of a Gryffindor. Traits that both fit perfectly into Slytherin. He's cunning and smart and an amazing leader and so determined. Duke lead the 'We Are Robin' movement and made his life goal to out riddle the Riddler. Honestly he's the perfect mix of smart and brave and really exemplefies the best of the Slytherin traits.

Damian

-> Slytherin: This one is a bit lack luster and a bit typical, but I do think it's fitting. He's cunning and ambitious and really values his heritage. Damian knows his life goals, he knows where his heritage can take him, and he will do anything to reach his full potential. And I do think that he has some Hufflepuff undertones, undertones that come out even more around animals and Jon, but overall he is a Slytherin.

And wowie, I'm done. This took waaayyyyyy longer than expected, so sorry for that. Honestly when I saw this ask I was like 'oh, cool, easy!' then I tried to answer and holy shit. I went back and forth so much and could not decide. So after many days and much thought this is what I ended up with. That being said I did really love this ask bc it was super fun.

Also srry if there are any typos but if I keep trying to edit this I will never finish bc I will keep changing my mind.

[bluegarners]

do you have any dick grayson hot takes? not including fanon hot takes

hey non! hmmm hot takes? i don't think i have many tbh...

i do think he is chronically sleep-deprived/fatigued. i just can't see him doing all the things he does (at some point in time leading the Titans, handling Gotham & Bludhaven [Bludhaven is just a mess by itself and I would argue even worse than Gotham], being Nightwing [detective work, long hours in the night, fighting people, physically exhausting himself, exposing himself to indescribable violence and trauma nearly every other day] , maintaining a good relationship with his family, having a day job, being on stand-by with the Justice League, helping younger generations of crime-fighters, constantly bettering himself [i.e: training/working-out, learning new things, adapting to others, studying fighting styles and other techniques], and even having somewhat of a social life outside of anything having to do with his night-job [I assume as much at least because he just seems popular with civilians in his civilian identity] along with his public persona as a son of an infamous billionaire) and not being absolutely exhausted from it all. even extroverts and people built to constantly be in the mindset of go go go just cannot keep up with the mountain of things Dick does and still be somewhat healthy and normal. he's a freak, is what i am saying

that being said, and i think this is both a canon and fanon thing at this point, i don't think Dick has an "off-switch". meaning, i don't think he knows how to take a break from things. if he's not doing something, then he's going to find something to do. sitting still, waiting on the sidelines for something to eventually happen, is just not his style in any way, shape, or form in my head. he needs to be occupied. if he's not, then he feels useless or just like he's not doing his job right. which ties in with, again, another more canon than fanon thing, being that i think he's got a huge guilt complex. i don't think i really need to explain why i think that, but, hey. i think if he could, dick would probably blame himself for nearly every bad thing to ever happen

but. that being said. i think Dick is the most (and this is a bit controversial) capable fighter in the batfam next to Cass. he has just as much experience as Bruce, has trained with the very best in the world (Deathstroke is just one example), and despite the interpretation that Dick hates guns just as much as Bruce, he does know how to use one and use it well. i don't think he's an expert like maybe Jason is, but i think he could be a sniper if he really wanted to is all i'm saying. he's got one of the more diverse and expansive range of skill-sets, and is one of the smartest batfam members. i honestly don't put much stock into intelligence in the batfam though because they're all extremely smart, but Dick applies that sort of tech/street smart more often when he's taking down large groups or toppling crime organizations. with all that combining, i also think he's one of the most manipulative (if not already the most manipulative) people in the dc universe. not meaning that in a negative connotation or anything, but he's just.... that guy. he's been around for a long time, has worked with so many people in both the League and out of the JL, good guys and bad guys, and he's extremely capable. if he asked, i'm sure most people would say yes to whatever he asked of them purely because he's built up that sort of connection and trust and reputation with everyone. i don't think it's manipulation done on purpose, but he's like a siren. he calls and you might just come running

[bitter-hibiscus]

WELL I'M GLAD YOU ASKED-

I was thinking about a post I saw about how Willis wouldn't have hesitated to kill Joker and it got me Thinking:

Willis and David, despite both being abusive towards their children, loved them more than anything else in this world. They are horrible, terrible people, and their children are the most important thing to them.

AND!!!

The things that they love about their children are the worst parts of them.

Willis expresses his desire for Jason to be bigger than he was -- "a damned prince of Gotham," which Jason kind of literally becomes as Red Hood. Willis, from the tidbits we get of Jason's childhood, seemed to encourage selfishness in Jason, because he was willing to do anything for his boy. Willis appreciates the fight Jason has in Rebirth, despite the fact that we as the readers know that Jason's refusal to back down from a fight is the very thing that's ruining him. When Jason was Robin (esp on Starlin's run) you can practically see the parts of Willis that he carries with him, how there's this constant divide between the happiness Bruce has given him and the violence that Willis taught him. It's so good.

And with Cassandra, it's much the same. David also wanted her to be cruel and evil (he wouldn't call it that, of course, he was trying to create perfection) and those are the parts of Cass that he loves. He loves her strength, and her drive, and her devotion to a cause. He does not love that the cause she's chosen is Batman's. He, as a blog I can't quite recall pointed out before, is proud of Cassandra's ability to read body language -- of her inability to communicate normally. And when Cass comes to Bruce (and Barbara), they think it's something they have to fix in her, not something to be loved for. It creates this clean divide between evil David and good Bruce, narratively, but can you imagine what it must feel like to have the thing you thought was the best part of you become something to overcome?

Jason and Cassandra are both the better versions of their fathers. Willis "died" a crook, a nobody, despite according to canon spending years trying to climb up the ladder. Jason gave in to the selfishness and the obsession with power that he saw in Willis growing up, and took over Gotham's criminal empire in two weeks. David is a man who belives in himself and in his ideals, he's quick-witted, he's effective, and Cassandra is just that much more than him. She's better than Batman, she's the strongest fighter in the world, she's everything her father wanted her to become, with the sole exception of refusing to kill people the way he had hoped. She's David Cain in every way except for her kindness.

The place where they differ is: Jason is the worst version of his father, what Willis would have become if he'd succeeded. Cassandra is the good version of her father, the one he could have become if he had different goals for his life.

Jason was nothing like Willis when he was Robin, clinging onto all the love he had in his bleeding heart to be good. When he became Red Hood and let his obsession with Bruce, his need to be loved, take over the good in him, he went down the exact same path as Willis did. He started with a good cause (having enough money to raise his son vs giving the safety Bruce had given him back to the city) and ended up letting the effects of those decisions destroy them. Jason takes all the things Willis taught him and lets them take over his life just as much as his father did, but it's worse, because he's stronger and more powerful than Willis will ever be.

Cassandra, on the other hand, takes all the knowledge that David gave her and spits it back at him. The stubbornness she inherited from him is what she uses when she refuses to kill despite everything David did to her so she would do exactly that. She uses the fighting styles he taught her against David's own allies, the ones she was meant to work with. Despite having the same understanding of the world as David, despite knowing all the things her father does, she will never be the next version of David Cain, because she refused to let go of her inherent beliefs that the world is good and people deserve to be protected.

Also: Jason, in his efforts to not be like Bruce, becomes exactly like Willis. Cassandra, in her efforts to not be like David, becomes exactly like Bruce.

someone should ask me about the parallels of Jason-Willis and Cassandra-David

[fenrir-wolf-of-gotham]

This was an ask by a person I don't want to be associated with anymore. Its also one of my favorite asks I've ever received because I got to talk a lot about my f/os in a deep way so I'm gonna repost it as a non-ask.

This is the ask game it was drawing from.

🧡: Tim Drake. He and I struggle to find things to talk about. We're just not very compatible socially. I suppose you could also say Bruce fits this. He's not happy about Cass being with someone romantically because nobody will ever be good enough for her but he does care about my opinions. He knows I'm very objective when I'm distanced from a situation. Now, I know this isn't part of the question, but Duke Thomas is my best friend. We're both Metahuman Vigilantes who grew up in Gotham, though he grew up in Burnley and I grew up in New Gotham. We still had very similar childhoods minus the fact I’m Irish and he’s African American.

💚: Oh absolutely. Cass and Steph are very protective of me and it is not helped by the many seductive villains in Gotham (even some guys believe it or not). Steph is the most open about how much she doesn't like other people flirting with me but Cass dislikes it more than her, she's just used to holding her emotions in. Cass will just stare angrily at them while getting physically close to me but Steph gets really sarcastic and passive aggressive (the first time it happened she grabbed me by the arm and loudly called me her boyfriend while telling me we were going on a date "right this second"). My obliviousness to when people are doing that means they also get the fun of seeing me completely miss social cues they picked up on hours ago. We have a code for when people are flirting with me that Steph or Cass asks me, "Did you water the tulips?" We don't have any Tulips. We only have a Peacelily that I bought for our room after watching Hot Fuzz (my favorite movie).

💘: For Cass, I caught feelings first and knew it the moment I saw her unmasked. Cass and I worked together on missions before that point and I respected and admired her but I definitely caught feelings once I saw her without her mask. It was also shot into overdrive when I saw her exercising in the Batcave (you could cut metal on her abs). Later, Cass became a little obsessed with me after she realized I could deliver a decent challenge as a fighter thanks to my metahuman powers. That evolved into romantic affection and she realized it after she saved my life and kissed me. We started dating.

Now we get to talk about Steph's side of the story which was much more emotionally taxing for her. Imagine you're Steph. You've been waiting for Cass to actually ask you out because she obviously has to know that you like her (Cass did not in fact know that Steph liked her), you know she likes you (Cass did not know that she liked Steph despite the emotions being there), and she never has a boyfriend so there's plenty of time for her to ask you out in between the boyfriends you keep bringing along just to highlight how much you're not into anyone but her (this was not her best plan).

Imagine all of that.

Now also imagine that this new vigilante rocks down to electric avenue, Cass seems to fall head over heels for him despite barely showing any interest in guys up to this point, and now they start dating within a few months of being friends despite the fact you and Cass have known each other for two years and have saved each other's lives on multiple occasions, one of which involved an explicit confession of love that she somehow managed to miss completely (see figure a).

Imagine all of that.

So she was trying to get over that when Deathstroke kidnapped her and injected her with a serum that made her emotions go into overdrive and manipulated her to follow his orders in an attempt to kill Batman.

Cass and her had a duel which ended with Cass hugging her until she stopped fighting and just started crying and emotionally laying all this out while I beat up Deathstroke.

It was a close duel but I won. Yes I am very proud of that fact.

A few days later I started taking Steph out to places to try and see how compatible we were (me and Cass called it "Operation: Stephside"). We went to a tabletop game store and played a few games with each other, we went to a music concert, we stayed home and played video games, and then later we went on a picnic which was when Steph started to get suspicious. Steph told me that, while she did like me, she wouldn't help me cheat on Cass which was when I told her what was really going on and that we were considering making it a throuple. Steph got really nervous but I made sure to let her know she had passed all the tests in no uncertain terms with flying colors. Then we headed back to the manor where the three of us spent our first night as a couple playtesting a game I had made in the Batcave.

It took a while but Steph finally got her perfect romantic ending.

You have no idea how funny it is to me that it took some random guy to finally get me and Cass together.

I absolutely love how incidental I am to your version of the story sweetheart.

Oh shut it you know what I mean. The irony that it took a man for two girls to finally go sapphic for each other? That doesn't usually happen.

Heh, yeah I get what you mean.

[incoherentbabblings]

Is it just me or does Cass seem to be...a bit OP in every way. I get it she's ONE of the best fighters in DC, I wouldn't outright she is THE best because that way she gets no character progression in that sense where she can be officially the best fighter. But also she just seems to annoy me a little when people always say she is the best Batfam member as a whole, I love her, but I feel like bc she is such a good fighter I like that she has drawbacks with her speaking and reading.

Hi anon! Thank you for the ask, I think it's interesting what you mention, but I disagree in places I think! I think how she is portrayed in canon is not the issue, rather its fandoms habit to narrow down traits and plot progression for the sake of ease of consumption which can lead to sweeping generalisations, and how frustrating these can be to those who prefer the complexity.

Cass isn't the best fighter in the DCU, I don't think. But I'll concede for the batfam, yes she does trump Bruce for plain old hand to hand combat (note: I side with Tom King in this debate [gasp] and also put Dick above Bruce but that's a convo for another day). I do think there are smaller characters that 'rank' higher than her, I think her mother still 'officially' is placed higher than her. I don't mind so much that Cass has nowhere to go so to speak in terms of fighting skills, because I think that's kind of the point. It's her biggest attribute as a vigilante but the way she got there was so crippling that it's also her biggest hinderance as a person. Her most interesting character moments I think are the 'here's what was forcibily taken from you on the road to that top spot - is 1st place really worth that?'

I think in canon she is a very flawed individual; her social and emotional intelligence doesn't much stack up against other more balanced batfam members. Jack of all trades is master of none perhaps, but punching good isn't - snort - good enough in Gotham. The city has systemic problems that require more.

I think the fact that her very first arc kind of proves your point maybe? The fact that with the gaining of the ability to speak, zoop went her flawless fighting, and how much her entire conception of self is built around that fighting style, and why she was so frantic to get it back. She was not interested in learning who she is without the fighting, because at that point the fighting is all she was. I like that her development is learning who she is outside of that. And who she is can be... difficult.

She creeps Tim out, Steph finds her very frustrating to start with, Dick is pretty wary too. But she's just a bit of a tough nut to crack, we know she's very... nougaty under that exterior. Her stories in her solo very much reflect this I think, and her best stories were her seeing what there was outside of that violence, e.g. her experimenting and having fun with Conner (the fact it was kind of doomed to go nowhere isn't really a problem to me, it could have been anyone Cass flirted with, the point was she was trying and having fun. Relationships are supposed to be fun). Idk, the times I find Cass the most interesting is when her fighting skills have little to no part in the story. Or rather, the fighting skills are actively hindering her role in the story.

Her relationships with Babs, Tim and Steph ultimately are not really about her ability to punch really good, though it definitely plays a part at the beginning. The scene were Babs snaps at her for not being able to read in a high pressure scenario is really good because I think it shows off what kind of person Babs is under pressure versus when she's had a moment to think; how insecure Cass is in looking for approval; and also on a more meta scale how ableism isn't restricted to abled bodied persons. Babs is in a wheelchair, she aggressively and harshly puts down Cass, someone who is neurodivergent and cannot read, and she is not excused for being ableist. It was wrong, no matter how high pressure the scenario was. I dunno, that scene is really good, if only for the fact it's one of the few times where Babs is portrayed as being in the wrong, and is actually treated as such in text.

Sorry, I've gone on a tangent here. I guess when it comes to fanon interpretations - is Cass the best because she can punch good? Is that what qualifies her to be the best Bat successor? I'd say not. Is it because she's the only one who actively wants it? Again, I'd say not. Wanting something doesn't mean you should get it, but I know I am in the minority here for that.

Thoughts thoughts... Thank you for sharing anon!

[forevermore-quoth-the-kitten]

I love the Batfam, so here they are as dogs, because I also love dogs.

Bruce Waye is a Great Dane, tall, strong, can look mean, especially when their ears are cropped like a Doberman, though his aren't. But he's really just a gentle giant who loves his kids and is very very patient.

I know we all characterize Dick Grayson as a golden retriever, but that man is husky, there is no doubt I my mind. He's emotional, over dramatic is his base setting, and he's always down for anything that excites him. And if something makes him annoyed, this man will be very vocal about it and you cannot ignore his temper tantrums.

Barbara Gordon is a German Shepard. Whether as Batgirl or Oracle, she's fierce, loyal, and one she catches onto someone's trail, she doesn't let up and once you're in Oracle's jaws, there's no escape.

Jason Todd is a Doberman, he's loyal, hardworking, caring and cam be very gentle with kids. He was a sweetheart who didn't have his ears cropped until Talia did it for him. But he also knows when to do more than guard, he's an attack dog who's not afraid to do what's necessary, but also knows when to choose kindness over force. Plus he had Dog for a while, so he's good eith other dogs too.

Tim Drake is a sighthound full of grace and beauty, he's a saluki. They're visual based and aren't as fast as a greyhound, but they're good at chasing over a long distance, and if there's something Tim Drake is good at, it's playing the long game. A smart dog for a very intelligent young man.

Stephanie Brown is an Irish setter. She's loyal, friendly, cheerful, compassionate, but she's still a hunting and gun dog who knows when to go get the prey in question. We stan our Robin queen eho loves purple and waffles, and Dog Steph is no exception.

Damian Wayne is a Great Dane and Dobermann mixed breed. But he's a hyperactive, annoying little nutcase who doesn't quite get the gentle giant part of his breed yet, but he's learning. I believe he'd have cropped ears and tail because of Ra's and Talia, which makes him look and help him act even more emenacing, but his real temperament is more Great Dane than anything else, which helps him really embrace being his father's son.

Cassandra Cain is unique, she has Shiva's mutation and is a solid black dalmatian. She's a scary dog with a bad reputation, but really, she's a sweet heart who might get things wrong sometimes, but tries very hard to be a good girl. Even when she's the strongest and fiercest fighter of them all, Cass is docile and loving at heart.

Duke Thomas is a silly nutball of a pit bull who really doesn't know how to be a bad guy or mean. He's friendly, open, and there's a reason he's Gotham's day time hero, because he shines with sun and has the biggest grin whenever he gets to do some good. He'd never hurt a fly, but when it comes to his family, he knows how to protect and fight with the best of 'em.

Alfred is an old staffordshire bull terrier, and no one would survive without this nanny dog who is always exasperated, but loves his chaotic little family.

[whalehouse1]

I understand they are not able to since his death is one thing that if they retcon out of comics it would invalidate so many developments of different characters since it affected people so much in universe and changed their trajectory. Also it would ruin the Robin lineage and would make it much harder to justify Tim or Steph being part of the Bat family. So Jason, as sad as it is, needs to die, and although Death in the Family tried to show him surviving being a bad thing, I don't buy any of the bad endings of if he survived, since again they keep forcing the "bad guy" retroactively on him. Then we have the other issue. Comics can't ever fully kill off characters, they will show up again if a writer likes them or the fans demand enough of them. So even if Bruce did go off and kill the Joker for killing Jason, it wouldn't be permanent, especially for the most iconic Batman villain (I do not personally care for the Joker, but if you ask for a comic villain, my money is on him or Dr. Octopus to be said.), which also invalidates Jason's ability to "control" crime the way he thinks he is, since the main crooks won't be able to ever die. The Gotham rogues are probably some of the most beloved villains (or if they're females anti-villains, again a separate issue) out of every superhero villain. None of them being killed off permanently would ever be welcomed. And then we get the "tragedy" of it. When it was just Jason dying and being revived it was horrifying since he was so different from how he was as Robin, it hurt seeing how damaged dying had hurt him and his relationships with his family members. No he and Dick didn't have the best brotherly relationship, but they did care about each other and Bruce, Alfred and him were all very loving towards each other. But now, we have Damian and Cass who had been revived with the pit as well and I'm sure there have been others, which when you keep using a phoenix down in a story, it makes the audience care less about death in the story (generally). So while I am ecstatic that all of them are alive, it makes what happened to Jason not as big of a deal as it was. And it also, like I said, cheapens the deaths of characters since there is no reason they can't just play dunk the dead in the Lazarus Pits. Bruce has fought Ra's at enough locations to know a good chunk of their locations. And this was something I forgot until @asphyxia778 reminded me of it. The writers will butcher and rewrite Jason and the other Bats in Jason stories to suit whatever morality they ascribe to. I am very anti-killing, but I do see where Jason is coming from based off the closest you can get to a "set" personality for a comic character. Dick is usually very incompetent in stories that want to feature others as to show how strong they are, but it annoys Dick fans. Tim fans get treated to either Jason trying to kill him or it never being addressed that he has had two brothers try to kill him and Tim isn't a grudge holder, and no he isn't as strong of a fighter as Jason or Damian, but he can hold his own. Also his absence in the newer Batman movies that were highlighting Damian really shows they just don't like having multiple Robins because they'd have to pick a favorite and you can't do that as a creator. But Jason gets treated often by writers as either a piece of meat (Red Hood and the Outlaws), an idiot (Urban Legends), ignorant/disrespectful (Wayne Family Adventures), trigger happy (fan works mostly, but also UtRH) and so on to justify Bruce being horrifically violent against him. I am firmly anti-abusive Bruce, and I know those stories exist and I try to ignore them as best as I can, but that type of writing and handling of it is the only way to justify Bruce's actions against Jason in UtRH and in Outlaws (I know WFA and Outlaws aren't considered "cannon" but they're officially licensed by DC and were given the go-ahead to do these types of stories), as again he is being portrayed as saving the Joker over Jason and there is nothing in the universe that can convince me Bruce would do that.

The Red Hood Problem (for me):

This is more for the comic than the show since I think the movie did a much better job at Bruce than the comic did.

Jason is now a murderer after this comic, this part is fine since he can still operate in Gotham having that be true (Cass, Jean-Paul, Damian, Tim, etc.) but the way they went about it doesn’t work for me. His resurrection has him come back, go on a frenzy and kill some of Ra’s’ men before he flees into the desert. Now where his mind is at here is debated, but if he survived the desert he must have been “sane” at one point. Or you like Lost Days and the Al Ghuls just picked him back up to train him, which that’s a different issue I have with Batman comics. He then gets back to Gotham and ruthlessly kills drug lords, pimps and other such criminals as it’s the only way to protect Gotham. This is where my first problem comes into play. Jason’s father was a criminal who died due to Two-Face and his mother (Catherine, that other woman can burn for all I care) died of a drug overdose. So him coming from that background had to be retconned so he wouldn’t go “oh extreme poverty and desperation can lead people to do things they wouldn’t consider otherwise”, but instead go to the classic, “my dad beat me so it’s okay that I became an orphan”, because then he’d have to be shown recognizing that killing people could result in leaving people behind much worse off. They try to do this in Urban Legends but Jason just seems a little off character there, especially knowing Tyler’s mom might not make it along with him just being a lack of impulse control personified. Then on top of them retconning (read gaslighting) his parents, they also keep trying to rewrite him as this super grumpy Robin who just would attack without thought. But we have the original Jason stories, he was rough around the edges, sure, but he wasn’t cruel or nasty or more violent than other Robins. And that’s what makes Red Hood so tragic, is he lost his joy and became resentful instead. He still kept his kindness in well-written stories, because he’s the same as Cass when it comes to bleeding hearts. If they can’t save someone they go full on Bruce moping mode. But nope, now we have Jason who couldn’t care less about saving people, he just wants to sow discord. And I know it was all to get the Joker out of Arkham, which just shows Jason as stupid (he isn’t but they love putting the stupid Robin label on him and Steph) since if he waited a day or two, Joker would be back on the streets. Then we get to my final issue, aside from Bruce not wanting to kill Joker but having no issue slicing Jason’s throat. It completely invalidates so much of Bruce’s decision to not kill the Joker that the hypocrisy leaks through the page and destroys any reason Jason could hold onto the “He didn’t kill because it’s his one rule” which yes is understandably frustrating for Jason but at least could give him some reason to think Bruce didn’t just value him as a body on the job. Which Bruce didn’t, Bruce, before some twats got allowed to write him, loved his children unconditionally, spent time with them and was a good father to them. This dunks on that harder than him and Dick in Infinite Crisis. It also perpetuates the Batman/Joker Optimus Prime/Megatron dynamic of “we’re made for each other to kill!!!”, which I’m fine with when it’s the Joker thinking that but not Batman. These rogues do not mean more to him than his children. He assaulted Two-Face, one of his closest friends when he attacked Dick, extremely violently might I add, but Joker gets a pass because “they’re the same you and I”? No that’s some BS right there. Also it cements the Red Hood backstory and I’m firmly anti-backstory Joker. But the actual final problem is the redemption part of his story. Writers don’t seem to do this and have him revert back to killing or he uses non-lethal rounds 😑, but it usually comes out of nowhere and it never is satisfactory. Have him keep killing and have the Bats have to put him away or actually write character growth for him in the Batman comic so it can more easily bleed over. But they won’t since edge lords sell. I absolutely love Jason and I as much as I wish you could retcon his death.